Why Lord of the Rings Fans Need To Learn About Conan the Barbarian
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ค. 2024
- Robert E Howard and JRR Tolkien share a lot more than just writing. Middle-Earth and the Hyborian Age are important fantasy works that helped build great movies and lore for every LOTR fan as well as Arnold Schwarzenegger fans. Here's why it's a good idea to read both.
#LOTR #Movies #Film - บันเทิง
It's about time we got big budget series for Conan.
I agree Conan is a great literary character. Robert E Howard, is one of the greats of pulp magazine fiction.
Robert E. Howard and that gritty pulp fantasy of the 1920s/1930s, when I read him for the first time I was blown at at how Conan and Solomon Kane were such breaths of fresh air after reading fantasy that was made in a post Tolkien world.
I had no idea Robert commited suicide at 30 untill now. Damn.
What a legacy he left at such a young age and with it, immortality.
Writing is a matter of bringing out what is in your mind. Conan world had lots of monsters and probably one of them killed him.
@@aquarius5719 That is beautifully said
Now we’re in some fun territory!! I love John Milius’ Conan the Barbarian, it’s a bona fide film classic, and recently bought a hardback collection of Robert E. Howard’s Conan stories that I really need to get into. My first exposure to Conan was a western animated series “Conan the Adventurer” with a badass intro!
While Middle-earth as we know it is certainly different from how it began, I think the whole Legendarium from The Silmarillion to The Lord of the Rings works as a lost mythology for England as a distant cousin to extant Germanic, Norse and Celtic mythologies.
I love Conan The Adventurer
It actually is a mythology for England; in one of Tolkien's letters he talks about that being one of the reasons he created it.
Reading through LoTR books currently, I think I'll probably check out Conan
I think Conan is one of the best literary franchises, the stories (the originals at least) are fun, fast, and action-packed. Each one shows a bit more of Hyboria little by little. Whereas Tolkien was insane with his detail and histories and family trees and lore in general, Conan is more or less just Conan. The eyes of a barbarian dealing with a world plagued by civilization, greed, lust and moral weakness. You could say it's the agnostic/atheist equivalent to Tolkien to because while LOTR is a Catholic tale and has all the regal and just feel of a Catholic piece, Conan does not worship, he lives in the moment and does what is right because he sees it as right, not to win a golden ticket to Crom's misty mountain, because Crom doesn't care. I love both, and if one has not read the old 30's stories I highly recommend you do.
I’m working my way through Howard’s works right now. I started with The Savage Tales of Solomon Kane and will move on to Kull before reading Conan.
I read a bunch of Conan stories last year and loved them.
After watching all 6 Middle Earth movies without having read the 4 books I honestly say that the franchise does one of the best jobs of immersing a viewer into the world of Middle Earth and all that it contains. Every movie just has everything that makes that world become so easy to get into. As for Conan...I honestly never payed much attention to him but now after watching this I think I may start reading the Conan novels
It's surprisingly well written, I even find it superior to Gotrek and Felix and other great Warhammer Fantasy novels. If you guys loved reading Tolkien, reading Robert E. Howard is worth a try (preferably in publication order).
@@nouveauprofilpeople should check out the late 1970s/1980s
Marvel comic *Elf Quest* , that comic book was definitely inspired by both Tolkien & Howard .. the main protagonist Elf a buff up lil guy who as a lot of Testosterone team up with a sexy Elf girl fighting Orcs & Goblins ..
Honestly, Conan and Aragorn have kinda the same purpose, to claim a throne or kingdom
Almost like they're both based on Arthurian legend..
I'm not so certain that Tolkien took much inspiration from Howard, as Tolkien tends to have a love for tales of heroic altruism, but one similarity I can confidently point out (which may be evidence for some inspiration) is that Tolkien seemed to have an appreciation for traditional masculine heroes and warriors. Orome, Tulkas,Gil Galad, Elendil, Isildur, Aragorn, Borromir,Theoden, Eomer and probably numerous others.
Tolkien wasn't fond of the glorification of bloodshed and war per say, but he certainly wasn't fond of pure inactive pacifism either.
Absolutely agree
Both of them took from the same mythologies and histories in order to write their stories. I don't doubt that there was some inspiration from Conan, but I think more likely that it's a case of coincidence for the most part. As for more direct connections, he very purposefully reinvented the genre, and that inherently involves responding to the works of other authors.
Much like Martin's work is a response to Tolkien and his acolytes, Tolkien's work was a response to previous fantasy works.
Heck, there were elements that were direct responses to his contemporaries- most notably CS Lewis.
So... he was definitely inspired in part by Conan, but probably more dialectically than memetically, imo.
Although I have a strong pushback about saying his idolisation of manly men was inspired by Conan. That was just the view of masculinity in the early 20th century, and he was, after all, a WWI veteran, of course he would view inaction as being as bad as negative action, or at least comparable to it.
Add to that his love for Norse Mythology and other such historical tales that heavily idealised masculinity, and it's a big stretch to suggest that his appreciation of masculinity was a result of something so mundane as reading Conan.
Robert E Howard is the true master
I always thought that George RR Martin's game of thrones books have a lot of inspiration from Howard's work. The map of the world of Westeros seems like hyboria but with north america added, and the cultures seem similar to their hyborian counterparts, but with the west, and north of hyboria moved to a separate continent. The mythology, and creatures, and themes seem to also be reminiscent of Robert e Howard's hyborian age mixed with king Arthur.
A Song of Ice and Fire is a direct response to all of the major epic fantasy stories, so you're probably right. I wouldn't be surprised if The Hound or some other vicious noble warrior is inspired directly by the character of Conan.
He wasn't inspired by HP Lovecraft to you now.
I must say this video was really godo and that's pretty great to know about the LOTR lore.
9:33 well yes, but that's a theme that's heavily present in the Eddas and other works that a
Tolkien directly credits as his inspiration. Tolkien LOVED Arthurian legend, which is *riddled* with the "peasant who would be king" trope. Aragorn is quite literally Arthur reimagined. He's the once and future king of Gondor, he is found as a peasant by a wizard who eventually leads him to regaining a magical sword that signifies his kingship.
The two had convergent inspiration, and little more.
I couldn't agree more. Howard and Tolkien were nearly polar opposites, and so are their works. I love them both, so I mean nothing against Howard when I say this, but Tolkien's work is much more intellectual. The more you learn about European history, legend, and myth, the more you come to respect the creation of Middle Earth. Conan is anti-intellectual, and proudly so. Howard's fantasy embraces the darker aspects of mythologized history and brutally cuts through it. It's very American, almost a sort of Western. An outlaw against the world. I think the contrast between Conan and Aragorn are what really highlight these differences best. Aragorn is noble by every definition of the word, and descends from royalty. Conan was nobody.
“What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie?
I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky.
The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs-I was a man before I was a king.”
They work tremendously well in their respective settings, and in many ways reflect their authors. Tolkien was of a noble sort of spirit who lived in a beautiful place with a beautiful history. Howard was a man who suffered tremendously and only found solace in poetry and violence. He grew up in the west as things were changing, and was present for the Great Depression. If you had asked Tolkien about the purpose and meaning of life, he would've told you about God, salvation, heroism, beauty, and other such ideals. And rightfully so, in my opinion. Howard would reject the question itself.
"I live, I burn with life, I love, I slay, and am content.”
Noting this severe contrast, I think it's safe to say that Tolkien did not take inspiration from Howard's work. Any similarity is simply a coincidence of having certain shared values or interests.
@@tiredidealist Tolkien fought in some of the bloodiest battles of the first world war (ie the somme,) and lived through the great depression, witnessed the continuing industrialisation of England, ww2 and the rise of fascism and communism, and the cold war. He died in the 1970s. He didnt have a sheltered life.
Amazing, I find your channel after seeing a video on Harryhausen & King Kong & find this on two of my favourite authors, great job man!
I love Lord of the rings
One thing worth pointing out is that Tolkien started writing his Legendarium back in 1914, well before Robert Howard started writing. I love both of them but I doubt Conan had that much influence on Tolkien's writings.
Hey, it's the dude i just saw in Hack the Movies talking Conan.
I was way into the Conan Exiles game for a while. I'd put on a Conan audiobook and wander the exiled lands. Such a great world of proto-civilizations more directly related to our world than the otherworldly fantasy lands of LOTR.
I'd always wondered if there was a connection on any level or even basic familiarity Tolkien might've had with Conan.
Every service wants their own Game of Thrones. There is a genuine goldmine waiting right there. It could be such a bold, savage and succesful push-back against the current state of lame, weak, "message" driven entertainment.
My understand is LOTR is High Fantasy and Kull/Conan are Sword & Sorcery. Check out a book called Crimson & Flame by Murphy.
I'm not sure what we can usefully say about the influence of Conan on Tolkien, but we can DEFINITELY say a lot about the influence of R. E. Howard on the genre of fantasy on the whole, and Dungeons & Dragons in particular. Tolkien's influence is far too often overstated here. The ultimate proof of this is Appendix N in the 1979 Dungeon Master's Guide.
Tolkien's work probably was as impactful on fantasy as it's said to be, he did entirely redefine the genre for a long time, and it was done in part as a response to earlier fantasy stories. I think that's what people miss, is that his work was in conversation with other works.
This then leads people to assume that his work is where ideas started, but he didn't even invent the secondary world, just made it bigger, since we have fantasies surrounding other worlds as far back as written history. But those worlds are often considered attached to our own.
I've only seen Conan movies, so I am a little bit ignorant, but I don't recall fantasy races really existing in Howard's work, or at least not being central, Tolkien was the one to standardise that as an element of the genre.
@@Jane-oz7pp Oh, race is definitely a factor in Howard's writing in the sense that his racism is a feature and not a bug. Howard was working with anthropological theories that were intellectually acceptable in his day, but would be considered discredited pseudo-science now. Those idiots who think that Tolkien's orcs are racist would certainly die of a heart attack if they ever read Howard. But to be charitable toward Howard, you can at least use the "he was a man of his time" defense far more effectively when discussing him than you can with, say, Lovecraft.
But Howard's notions of anthropological world-building, age-old endless conflicts, dark fantasy, and adventure in exotic locales absolutely influenced Gygax. Just read any of the Conan stories. There's more D&D there than in anything Tolkien wrote. Gygax transported some of the flourishes of Middle Earth into the Hyborian Age, not the other way around. The heart and soul of D&D is much more in line with the bare-knuckled pulp adventure stories of Howard's day than actual epic fantasy. Of course, that changed a little with Dragonlance.
Great video, I actually prefer Howard's world-building over Tolkien's.
Amazing video.
I think I heard that Tolkien used some of Howard's writing ✍ style when it came to the battles in his later works.
Robert E Howards character Bran Mak Morn is very interesting also. It talks about an early race of people called the Picts which I think did exsist in the English islands
Good observation on possible derivative of Howard, never thought of this possible relationship. However, there is an earlier author that I'm convinced influenced Howard on his writing on especially Kull and Conan, and that'd be Edgar Rice Burroughs and his early Tarzan and Barbarian action writing was certainly influential on Howard's style IMO.
What about Red Sonja? Or Dragon Slayer, Willow, Beastmaster.
Dragon Slayer I legitimately think is one of the best dragon movies EVER
@@Dragoncurve same but don't forget Regin of Fire.
I think we almost got a red Sonja movie starring Rose McGowan and directed by Robert Rodriguez but it got cancelled.
Edit: I just checked there is a new red Sonja movie in the works and it stars new actress called Hannah John kamen.
Yeah I kind of think Lord of the Rings was little bit inspired by property Howard's universe the hyborean age But J.R.R. Tolkien was aware who's Robert E Howard was inspired HP lovecraft Just for reference.
Nice choice of music.
Hour of the dragon by Robert E Howard the only Conan novel Howard ever wrote when Conan is king is a masterpiece.
There shoyld be a epic rap battle Tolkien vs REH😂
How do I find friends like you?
I'm a big fan of LotR and I didn't pay enough attention to Connan until recent Savage Avengers from Marvel
The originan movie was pure quality. Howard stories are highly entertaining as well.
Clayton woah face revile It's cool I finally get to see you as you not just a voice
Where do we start with Conan?
I searched for this video on the basis of the 2011 Conan movie which I had to pause in order to search DuckDuckGo for any connection between Conan and LOTR the moment the introduction discussed a crown shattered into pieces and scattered that was now being reconstructed.
It immediately brought to mind the LOTR premise and I wondered if there were commections
I don't know i mean they're two very different things i mean it's like how Lucas was inspired by some things from Herbert's Dune.
Interesting
What's the album cover 6 seconds in?
Black Sabbath by Black Sabbath.
Black Sabbath by Black Sabbath.
Thanks
i agree, its the best film trilogy i know, by a surprising margin. There's a lot of great trilogies, but LOTR is almost perfect sooo yeh
It definitely had the advantage of always being a trilogy, and Jackson securing the full trilogy worth of funding up front definitely helped. We got very lucky with that one, I think, and that's why it stands out so much- it's not a movie turned into a trilogy, it's a trilogy out to screen.
Summary:
Conan - Daniel
LotR - The Cooler Daniel
Howard does Tolkien better on one account. With Conan, you can read his stories in whatever order you want, since they jump all over the place during his life. Tolkien's work is basically read in one order only. Maybe that's changed with all that's come out since the trilogy. But still.
Nah, other than the Trilogy you don't need to read any of it in any particular order.
It's recommended that the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales go last, but that's because they're really high concept and it's hard to jump straight into them.
But The Hobbit works perfectly as a standalone, and you can read the Trilogy without ever reading the rest without missing anything. The Silmarillion is like ten thousand years of major events, condensed, so you can read that whenever, without even following the chapter order. Unfinished Tales is literally just scraps of unfinished works that you can read in any order again.
The only one that would require other reading first was never finished, it was The New Shadow and it would have required an understanding of Sauron and Melkor's histories, but that's about it.
Howard does still have a less structured reading order, because he has literally no reading order, but
Tolkien's works are pretty approachable from almost any starting point.
Conan Rocks Lord of the Rings for me is absolutely boring part 2 is the only Rings film that I watched the entire film part 1 and 2 I made it around 30 to 45 minutes to me it just seems all they do is walk walk walk and walk and sometimes during all the movies they walk and talk at the same time I know a lot of people LOVE this franchise that's cool ,but it's just not my cup of tea
I did hear that Arnold Schwarzenegger is doing 1 more Conan I hope so 🤞 👍 my favorite Conan out of all 3 of them is the 2nd movie with
Grace Jones the good old 80s btw what about
Red Sonja Lol
Red Sonja is my favourite Conan movie, and it's set so long after he died lmao
Actually Conan is kind of contrary to Lord of the Rings. In Lord of the Rings there is the fate and one god (Illuvatar) controlling everything, perfectly defined morals, everyone acts according to their role there are high noble beings like elves and evil beings like orcs, there is not any true progress. There is divine right if you are descended from kings you are a king.
Conan stories are the opposite, Conan is a barbarian a commoner (but a very strong one). He survives by his strength, iron will and wits. He doesn't care about gods. And he discovers civilizations, cultures and he learns and adapts. The morals are like more realistic Conan is a man of his time but he also has his own tribal manly honor and morals. He becomes Mercenary, a Thief, a Pirate a Slayer and a King. He gains his kingdom by his wits and abilities not by divine right.
Unbiased truth? Conan's collective lore >
I thought this video was really cool
Middle-earth is most definitely Eurasia, arguably Afro-Eurasia. And the western theater in which the tales take place are Europe. That's explicitly stated.
I've always preferred Conan over Lord of the Rings. The characters presented are more life like than the idealized version Toiken thought of. Magic while rare was more magical even if it was more ritual based instead of light spells, invisibility, and a circle of protection. Monsters seem more dangerous, the villains more villainous and the battles were obviously written by someone who studied medieval combat.
All in all Lord of the Rings was written for children who finished the Fellowship of the Rings and grew up a little. Conan is for teenagers who started to understand how the world works.
Sadly the only bit of television/ movie entertainment Conan has gotten right was the first movie and the cartoon. However their games have been better than Lord of the Rings.
Tolkien's writing isn't "better" than Howard's. They just have different strengths. And they were each writing for vastly different markets and editors.
ahem... its pronounced Säləˈmā. Sa-Luh-May. Not to nitpick but...
Pretty sure Pippin is a direct Conan rip-off.