I know most folks are stuck on power, power, and more power! But what I want to focus on is a balance of power and “decent” fuel economy. So my question/challenge to you Richard is about fuel consumption. Maybe you can start adding that matrix into the videos or create a couple videos on fuel use per a given combination for equal amounts of dyno time 💁🏼♂️ Thanks for all that you do sir!!!!
@@richardholdener1727 maybe a fuel consumption of the different engines: 4.8, 5.3, and 6.0 in stock form vs bolt-on vs boosted? And doing it over a given period of time as well. I’m thinking this could give some rough insight of how fuel mileage can be positively or negatively affected with different combinations.
@@richardholdener1727 adding power while maintaining or increasing fuel mileage is something I’ve tried to keep in mind. Thank you for asking for clarification on that.
I am really enjoying this series on this junkyard 4.8, especially the NSR Truck Norris cam test. I still love building old school 283's for nostalgic reasons, and I have a fresh one on the stand for my 66 C10. However, a good friend recently dropped off a good used 2009 truck 4.8 and said, "Change the camshaft and put it in your 66". Thanks to you, I can see that my friend is right.
Richard man you keep me always watching to to see how it works out!! I really enjoyed this test,I think a 600 cfm carb would maybe have worked better on the little 4.8????and maybe a performer intake if they make one 🥴I hope you do a street 5.3 with a turbo and the NSR cam 🙏would also love a head gasket thickness comparison,Quench I mean!I really love the test you do I don’t even watch anyone else testing 😉
Carbs have always seemed the right choice for me because I love the simplicity. Very little is needed to make it work and get really close on the tune up.
Efi was only established to allow a computer with sensors to adjust fuel metering for altitude, temperature changes, and emissions control. All it does is increase complexity and cost to operate and troubleshoot.
EFI is more complicated to set up but in a lot of ways it's easier/faster to tune without anywhere near the guesswork. Once my Holley HP system was set up it's basically just type in the fuel and timing curve I want and the computer does it's best to make it happen and maintain it. It's actually kinda funny nowadays that EFI has become so powerful and common that dialing in a carburetor is often viewed as wizardry.
@@177SCmaroI dont even really find efi's setup to be that complicated especially with a efi tb injection that holley makes. That said, i have run countless Demon and Holley carbs that drive wonderful right out the box and still pull to redline without so much as a twistof a screwdriver to dial them in. I refuse to put any extra electronics than what are absolutely neccessary especially on something like my sand rail that has no electronics beyond the ignition. I prefer the dead simplicity of a controlled fuel leak over a fuel injection.
@@madmod In that case I say dispense with that complicated carburetor contraption and get yourself a metal box full of fuel and just drill a hole in it.
Rich. Your last results comparing dual and single plane carb intakes to the stock ls3 intakes was surprising. I'd have no idea the dual planes could beat a medium runner efi intake to 4500rpm. Basically in daily driving ram a good deal more torque. The higher ram operations could have likely been improved with porting and plenum work. On the single planes they were just coming alive at 5500 or so. I'm sure they would allow operation to 9000 on that large displacement.
I like the way you tested this. If I had the complete factory EFI, I would run it. I have no idea of the factory electronics is swap friendly or not. But I have a hard time following the PROGRAM, I would try the carb set up because I am weird like that.
Hey Richard, Swapping a EFI TB with injectors on the dual plane intake would be intresting and easy. Does better fuel control add any HP or TQ? My guess not much but what is causing the shorter runner intake to make better power to 4000 rpm over the longer runner truck intake, seems to go against what you would think.
I enjoy these videos, but in the end, I’ll take EFI for street applications every time. And I’m an old buzzard that was brought up on carbs. EFI was like a gift from above …
Try a Q-jet, or a 650 Holley. The carb would E.T. better, on a drag strip, because you could use a lower rear gear ratio. The EFI probably has better fuel milage. Nice video.
I would like to see a dual quad carb setup. I feel like it would be more fair due to the fact 8 barrels for 8 cylinders for even fuel distribution. That’s my thought at least and would love to see how the results look!
@@BuzzLOLOL Yea, I don't know his setup. It was like a stock 305 Camaro. I told him just swap a dual plane and single carb lol. He was forever blowing power valves
Great video as usual! Thanks for the time you spend on all this. Question. What happened to making the different combinations different colors on the dyno graph? Made it a lot easier to tell what hp or torque line belonged to what combination.
I’m wondering if you ran into fuel distribution issues with the carb/dual plane setup. If you had 8 EGTs or 8 O2s you could check for it, but hardly any street installation is going to be set up that way. Multipoint EFI is going to get the fuel itself pretty even, but there may be air distribution issues to cause variance, with all the twists and turns, both air and fuel might be disturbed on a carb setup. Still, interesting results, especially the different rpm peaks in the torque/hp curves. Thanks, Richard!
I'm guessing the reason the engine lost power at 13.2 on the carb setup is simply down to cylinder to cylinder fuel distribution. You probably got a few cylinders up in the high 13's/low 14's and that was enough to knock a couple hp off. Much less of an issue on EFI.
I've had both a LS2 with CNC ported LS3 heads with a 226 duration intake 236 duration exhaust 600 lift on intake and exhaust aftermarket camshaft with a GM single plane intake with a Holley HP 850 carberator redlines at 7200rpm had this setup from 2008-2021 now have a GM performance LS3 495 horsepower crate engine with CNC ported and milled LS3 heads with a 219 duration intake 228 duration exhaust with 525 lift intake and exhaust with a 102mm throttle body and sheet metal intake with ZL1 injectors and fuel pump redlines at 6600rpm tuned and runs on E85 the LS2 carberated engine made 540 horsepower at 6700rpm with 470 foot pounds of torque at 5200rpm at the crank the LS3 fuel injected on E85 made 520 horsepower at 6200rpm and 495 foot pounds of torque at 5000rpm at the crank so it's down 20 horsepower vs the carberated engine with a more mild camshaft but with the injected engine from 3000-6200rpm is up 25 foot pounds of torque in some of the rpm range 30-35 more torque than the carberated LS2 but the carberated LS2 was better 6200rpm up I've had the injected LS3 now for 11 months and so far l really don't miss the carberator and the headaches of tuning it once a year and replacing 80 dollar spark plugs every 12-16 months because the carberator needs to be tuned after 1200 miles on the injected LS3 running E85 after inspecting the spark plugs after 1200 miles they look close to new after 1200-1500 miles with the the carberated LS2 it's time to change the spark plugs if you want it running it's absolute best if your going to be street driving the vehicle and idling at stop lights the fuel injection is better but l can see a carberator working well on something that is more of a drag race vehicle that will need more maintenance and tuning the throttle response with the carberator tuned was really good but l think the throttle response of the fuel injection is slightly better and so far has been untouched now 11 months
If you want the carb look, just go Holley sniper EFI 4br (or two even) and get the much better tuneability of efi with the look (and feel/sound from my experience) of a carb without all the nuisance.
Richard said to tune a dual plane with a tbody style aftermarket efi is possible but not easily repeatable. Most t body systems run better with a single plane wet manifold.
@@erikturner5073 Richard literally just proved my point on WHY carbs are not as good lol🤷 the air fuel will NEVER be exactly how you want it and HE absolutely knows how to tune a carb. It's not rocket science. Guys who refuse to see that are just afraid of fuel injection and don't know how to tune modern efi pcms 👌✌️(ps it's even easier than a carb 😱). I like carbs. They are cool and I enjoy the Holley 2brl on my dad's 68 f100 very much. But, it will eventually get fuel injected because, it will just be all around better. Otherwise, the world(including nascar) would have stuck with carbs 👆)
@@jasonrose6562 yes but the fuel injected single plane imo would still be better than a DP with a carb. Now, demon carbs and the like are flat out awesome. But, good luck starting that and taking off for work at 4 in the morning when it's 15 degrees outside. Mpfi is absolutely the best but not always the cheapest when the engine didn't come that way stock. I'm not a big fan of tbi really either but, tuned right they can get pretty serious fuel mileage.
@@lifeonadime4703 regardless of how you feel about carbs, they aren't going anywhere in the Hot Rod world. I'm a master Auto technician (for 26years) and I perfer carbs on my muscle cars. They are still too popular for that for that and for good reason!👍 There's too many videos proving the viability of carbs as well as them making as much and even more power than EFI, for the fraction of the cost! Also Richard used carbs and has vouched plenty of times in favor for carbs. So there you have it! Also plenty of companies are making carb intakes for the Ford 4.6, and 5.4, the new Dodge Hemi engines, and also LS engines as well. Obviously carbs are not going anywhere and are still very popular!
You'll get even more power from efi with a tbss/nbss intake. It's cheaper to go fuel injection especially when pulling everything from the yard. You'll have everything down to the harness/ecu to run it. And as far as vats being turned off, there's even free ways to do it now. If you go carb, then you still have to buy the carb, intake, and msd box. About an extra 700 plus
Very interesting test. I am surprised to see that power is already dropping off at 13.2 : 1 AFR I presume that the factories are compelled to set AFR at the stoichiometric ratio of 14.7 :1 to minimise emissions. I would like to see you do power tests at AFR values ranging from 14.7 to 14 , 13.5, 13.0 and 12.5. This should be fairly easy to do just by altering the block of no.s in the fuel table and everything else held constant. Can you arrange this. This would give us some appreciation of what the factories have to deal with. Regards, John
It would be interesting to see this comparison with a slightly stronger cam with a smallish lsa, maybe the dualplane could give driveability as well as a strong midrange. Just a thought. 🙂
@@richardholdener1727 Oh yes, I'm well aware of that. 🙂 What I'm getting at is that even though the truck manifold most likely will outflow and make more hp no matter what, maybe the dualplane instead could make for a really strong midrange (~2-5k rpm) and have idle/part throttle manners with the divider in the plenum. Maybe not enough to make big difference in the end, but maybe still a route worth taking if you for some reason want/have to run the dualplane and get the most out of it. 🙂
Hello Richard, Considering an engine and tyranny upgrade for my 4wd LS 2000 Tahoe with iron block 5.3. Have already upgraded suspension, brakes and 18" wheels. Interior is great shape too. Has the bi-fold twin rear doors, not a tail gate. Goal is 375 to 400 hp with good low end torque, improved efficiency and teamed with a new 4L80. Considering swapping 3.73 to 3.23 differentials. Can you recommend long tube header size and exhaust. Result being the same or slightly better performance with much better highway mpg at lower rpm. Carb versus EFI Testing of the 4.8 answered one if the questions I had. New full size SUVs are bonkers money these days. Thanks for your real world videos. Keith
I would be interested in the truck efi compared to duel plane/Holley sniper TBI. I like the thought of the old school look with efi setup. Especially with the gold Holley body.
My take-away from this test is that the LS Performer intake manifold is not the best at cylinder-to-cylinder fuel distribution. That is evident by the noted loss of power when attempting to use anything leaner than 12.5:1 Air/Fuel mixture ratio. It is easy to achieve with port fuel injection. It is difficult to design a wet-flow intake with cylinder-to-cylinder distribution to be near optimum, which is required to run the leaner mixture ratios. When one cylinder tends to be leaner than the rest, you must richen the overall engine's mixture ratio to bring that one cylinder into the safe/power mixture zone. It is not necessarily a huge detriment on an engine being built for performance but it is a detriment when looking for fuel efficiency as well if that is a primary consideration.
When it's getting down to performance.... it would also be nice to see the basic petroleum use on each setup, as M.P.G,s ,I know without the specimen being placed in a actual demo vehicle it may be more challenging to crush numbers...or may be easier to say which one burns lesser fule.. thanks again...
I get that... the majority of Auto Makers have always claimed that fule injection 💉 smoothness has a better fule efficiency,... but thinking about the New Holly fule injection with same four barrel mounting for simplicity...may be interesting to give those new age babies a run?....
Other tests I’ve seen you do show the carb performing better due to charge air cooling of the fuel. This test probably has more to do with the intakes than carb or efi but I was surprised the efi long runner intake performed better at higher rpm so maybe a better explanation or test might be required to clear everything up.
I think when the two runs times are compared the EFI will be a fair bit quicker witch means the EFI basically kicked the carb’s ass a bit, very interesting to see the difference the carb did well I think 👍🏻🏁
Have you ever made an open plenum intake into a 4 chamber plenum. Using a small opening to balance intake pulses. Increases velocity? Maybe help throttle response?
Please do a high compression 305 Chevy build. I want to know what a small strokey engine would do on the minimum requirement for E85 [70%]. Love your content. [edit: just how high could you safely go on E70? 13:1,14:1?]
@@ChurchAutoTest I'd imagine that the safe level of compression would be different, given different levels of ethanol in the mixture. Do you actually think that E10 and E85 have the same knock properties?
@richardholdener1727 I haven't tried yet but I have heard that it will work with the Holley that is tapped for injectors. I have also heard the the stock rail flows better than the Holly rail. I was hoping you could tell me. 😆😅 I am building a 1962 BelAir and have a 4.8 4l60 that I will be using. I want to retain a similar look to the original but be able to run fuel injection. I don't want to go to TBI. I can't find any performance numbers or reliable information on this option but figured, they make the parts, it must work at least some what decent. Thanks for all of your videos. They are both informative and entertaining.
Okay, a factory cam is designed to make smooth driveable power and as best economy and emissions as can be expected in the engine of a vehicle it's designed to be used in. The fuel system is designed to keep the fuel mixture correct, throughout the engine's entire range of operation. Every camshaft designed for a gasoline engine is a carburetor cam and every cam designed for every gasoline engine is also an EFI cam. The camshaft is not different, it's only what controls the fuel mixture that's different. Camshaft designs have changed because of computing power and programs at the engineers fingertips. Most of the time, you can make more hp and torque with a carburetor without making any changes to the engine, but if you want to make hp and still get great mileage and be able to go from low altitude to high altitude and keep nearly zero emission while doing it, EFI rules. If you want to add a turbocharger to an engine, it's way more simple and practical to start with an EFI engine. Every engine is a turbo engine and every cam is a turbo cam (I Iearned this is true from Richard and this channel ). EDIT: I didn't make this reply to sound like I know it all but when I read it back, I don't feel that great about it, but what it says is true.
Well I'm glad i got that clarified now, i just had the idea looking at different cam manufacturers how they offer some carb specific cams vs efi cams. I think I've read somewhere the difference was at the opening ramps but again that might have been depending on the application. I really appreciate all the time and effort Richard puts into doing this real world testing. We learn a lot from you Richard, thanks a lot.
@@celasuperman Richard is doing a really great thing here. I only wish the guys can ignore the engine brand he puts on the dyno, and realize what he is showing us is applicable to the engine we have right now or for the engine we want to put in our Hot Rod. Everything applies to our application as well as the one he is testing even if you have a 4 cylinder or a V6 and he's testing a V8. He stays away from the extremes and gives the regular Joe a chance to build a great running engine right out of the box.
Hey Richard, I know this question will probably get me some hate but maybe not... Do you have an opinion in regards to the Edelbrock performer AVS carbs and have you tested any on some LS carb setups? Thanks sir!
From all the videos I watched from Richard he likes the stage 1 truck cams for a towing applications. Anything bigger just gains out in the high RPMs but loses a lot down low
Rich I never see where a 4 hole spacer helps an ls engine in any case unless you want all bottom end power however a 1 inch open spacer is worth 1 to 2 tenths in the quarter mile on every ls we worked on and tested at the track
@@richardholdener1727 It works great on my 302 but on the LS it smothered the motor I prove my stuff where it counts on the track not a dyno I'm just stating facts
A four-hole spacer is better for the carburetor venturis by allowing for a longer straight-flow path which is actually better for the carburetor velocity and actual flow volume/cfm. The same is to be said for the other side (the top of the carburetor, when using a stub-stack or velocity stack on the airhorn- it straightens the flow into the venturi on the top-side. Both are very effective at increasing the carburetor flow and performance when space under-hood allows their installation without restricting the airflow into the airhorn. The open-spacer can benefit certain engines especially when the added plenum volume is needed for the engine capacity, and as a way to slow the air/fuel mixture's velocity from the bottom of the throttle plates to make a tighter turn into the intake manifold runner in some cases. Whether on a dyno, or in the chassis on the track, trial and error will yield the answer to which is better for that particular combination.
@@BuzzLOLOL In the old days, we used to say we were "souping up" the engine when we added performance parts. I guess Hot Rod has moved on to "Tossing Salad" parts on theirs!
Why don't you use a different color for each test on the power graphs with a small index in the corner? It would make it a lot easier to understand for everyone.
Hey Richard which Holley 750 did you use? Is that a vacuum secondary or mechanical secondary? I've had better luck with a vacuum secondary with a metering block for secondary jets. Also a slightly lighter spring in the secondary diafram depending on the camshaft. Do you think you would had better results by using a 600 cfm carburetor vs the 750 cfm carburetor?
as efi have `perfect` air/fuel ratio, shouldn`t the computer based system perform better at every rpm. how long(and varied) did the efi get to run before the vs test
Is the relatively small truck throttle body causing any issues for the EFI? It seems to me a 750 CFM carb would have the ability to flow a lot more air (whether the engine can use it or not) than would a 78mm TB. Not sure how it would affect it overall ... might even hurt the bottom end torque more than it already was in comparison to the dual plane ... would be interesting to find out, though.
@@richardholdener1727 - If it's not a restriction, then why not use a carb which flows the same as the truck TB? I'd lay wager the 750 will outflow the 78mm TB by a fair amount. Make it as close to apples-to-apples as you can make it for a fair test.
Hi my name wayne and i Have a 1971 chevy c10 350 engine 4 barrel holley 650 i need your opinion if You can I appreciate it go with efi siniper 2 or swap ls 5.3 engine let me Know thank you
You can check the comparison of the single vs the dual plane vs the stock EFI truck manifold in this video. th-cam.com/video/Twnid-se9Ug/w-d-xo.html As Richard always says "That's what a dual plane (long intake runner) does" "That's what a single plane (short intake runner) does". EDIT: Every time.
Ok rich....i have an 87 gmc k10....5.7 tbi....im getting oil in the coolant...but no coolant in the oil....i found 1 guy online w similar issue....he found out it had some hairline crack between to oil galleys and cooling passages....oil pressure is higher then coolant so the flow went hi to low....but i cant understand is when engine is off....the oil goes to zero and the coolant stays 15 psi til it cools over several hrs.....why it dont leak into oil?? Anyway...im thinkin 454.....what years...junkyards...price should i be in? Thx
Hey Richard I have a 5.3 with stage 2 cam, single plane msd6014 and with a 625 demon carb my only problem is that it diesels on 87 but not on 91 I tried the timing on with 87 and no luck I have no problem running 91 but it’s kinda pricy and wanna use 87 instead any suggestions would help thank you!
@@richardholdener1727 I want it to be capable of 800 to 1000 hp at the crank maybe keep it around 700 daily driver or turn it up if I want/ need to LoL
@@richardholdener1727 I mean you posted the AFR graph of the carb setup, but not for the EFI. It would be nice to see how nice an EFI AFR graph is compared to the Carb.
I’d really like to see a carb comparison between the 750 and a 625 or so, I wouldn’t be surprised if there was pooling going on with lowered velocity. I bet there’s 30hp there
Why would you compare a known bad intake with a good intake 🤔. Also previous carb videos you’ve done show the carb setup made more power So now you make this showing the opposite
no previous test has been run on these two intakes on a stock 4.8L and what other previous test showed a dual plane performer making more than a truck?
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I know most folks are stuck on power, power, and more power! But what I want to focus on is a balance of power and “decent” fuel economy. So my question/challenge to you Richard is about fuel consumption. Maybe you can start adding that matrix into the videos or create a couple videos on fuel use per a given combination for equal amounts of dyno time 💁🏼♂️
Thanks for all that you do sir!!!!
you want mpg at WOT?
@@richardholdener1727 if its something that's possible?
@@richardholdener1727 maybe a fuel consumption of the different engines: 4.8, 5.3, and 6.0 in stock form vs bolt-on vs boosted? And doing it over a given period of time as well. I’m thinking this could give some rough insight of how fuel mileage can be positively or negatively affected with different combinations.
@@richardholdener1727 adding power while maintaining or increasing fuel mileage is something I’ve tried to keep in mind. Thank you for asking for clarification on that.
@richardholdener1727 do a stock truck intake like you did in this video vs carbureted swap to see which one is more fuel efficient
I never get tired of your 4.8/5.3 testing
I am really enjoying this series on this junkyard 4.8, especially the NSR Truck Norris cam test. I still love building old school 283's for nostalgic reasons, and I have a fresh one on the stand for my 66 C10. However, a good friend recently dropped off a good used 2009 truck 4.8 and said, "Change the camshaft and put it in your 66". Thanks to you, I can see that my friend is right.
The 4.8 is a 293
Thanks Richard. A true dual plane to a truck intake test. Not how I expected it to turn out!
Richard man you keep me always watching to to see how it works out!!
I really enjoyed this test,I think a 600 cfm carb would maybe have worked better on the little 4.8????and maybe a performer intake if they make one 🥴I hope you do a street 5.3 with a turbo and the NSR cam 🙏would also love a head gasket thickness comparison,Quench I mean!I really love the test you do I don’t even watch anyone else testing 😉
Carbs have always seemed the right choice for me because I love the simplicity. Very little is needed to make it work and get really close on the tune up.
Efi was only established to allow a computer with sensors to adjust fuel metering for altitude, temperature changes, and emissions control. All it does is increase complexity and cost to operate and troubleshoot.
EFI is more complicated to set up but in a lot of ways it's easier/faster to tune without anywhere near the guesswork. Once my Holley HP system was set up it's basically just type in the fuel and timing curve I want and the computer does it's best to make it happen and maintain it.
It's actually kinda funny nowadays that EFI has become so powerful and common that dialing in a carburetor is often viewed as wizardry.
@@177SCmaroI dont even really find efi's setup to be that complicated especially with a efi tb injection that holley makes. That said, i have run countless Demon and Holley carbs that drive wonderful right out the box and still pull to redline without so much as a twistof a screwdriver to dial them in. I refuse to put any extra electronics than what are absolutely neccessary especially on something like my sand rail that has no electronics beyond the ignition. I prefer the dead simplicity of a controlled fuel leak over a fuel injection.
@@madmod
In that case I say dispense with that complicated carburetor contraption and get yourself a metal box full of fuel and just drill a hole in it.
@@177SCmaro Itd probably work xD
Rich. Your last results comparing dual and single plane carb intakes to the stock ls3 intakes was surprising. I'd have no idea the dual planes could beat a medium runner efi intake to 4500rpm. Basically in daily driving ram a good deal more torque. The higher ram operations could have likely been improved with porting and plenum work. On the single planes they were just coming alive at 5500 or so. I'm sure they would allow operation to 9000 on that large displacement.
I cant wait to see some V10 Triton other guys testing
I like the way you tested this. If I had the complete factory EFI, I would run it. I have no idea of the factory electronics is swap friendly or not. But I have a hard time following the PROGRAM, I would try the carb set up because I am weird like that.
Brilliant and real stuff as the usual. .. Thanks Again and keep up the Great work....
That AF curve is typical of newer carbs with big air bleeds and big jets to match. You could tilt it to the right by going down in jet and air bleed.
Interesting. Time for a test of carb versus EFI using the Truck Norris NSR cam. 👍
same results
when i saw these power curves i was mortified! then i realized my phone screen wasn’t cracked and i was very relieved
Hey Richard, Swapping a EFI TB with injectors on the dual plane intake would be intresting and easy. Does better fuel control add any HP or TQ? My guess not much but what is causing the shorter runner intake to make better power to 4000 rpm over the longer runner truck intake, seems to go against what you would think.
I enjoy these videos, but in the end, I’ll take EFI for street applications every time.
And I’m an old buzzard that was brought up on carbs. EFI was like a gift from above …
Try a Q-jet, or a 650 Holley. The carb would E.T. better, on a drag strip, because you could use a lower rear gear ratio. The EFI probably has better fuel milage. Nice video.
Annular boosters in the primary's increases carb mileage 😊
I would like to see a dual quad carb setup. I feel like it would be more fair due to the fact 8 barrels for 8 cylinders for even fuel distribution. That’s my thought at least and would love to see how the results look!
I met a guy back in the day who tried to run dual quads on a 305. He could never make it run right. It was a mess.
@@BuzzLOLOL Yea, I don't know his setup. It was like a stock 305 Camaro. I told him just swap a dual plane and single carb lol. He was forever blowing power valves
@@gumballer133 twin Carter AFB 500s work great on 302 and 305s..
@@gumballer133 ive seen someone years ago do that on a 89 Camaro 305 with them poking out the hood. Looked cool but run like 💩
Would be interesting to see what a Quadrajet would do as well..
Quadra...? J@#$? Is what I've always heard it called, thermoquad!!
Thermo-quad is a totally different animal than a quadrajet
I’m an efi guy but I’d take the carb curve that’s impressive that it made constant power
Great video as usual! Thanks for the time you spend on all this. Question. What happened to making the different combinations different colors on the dyno graph? Made it a lot easier to tell what hp or torque line belonged to what combination.
I can't do that any more-the software does not allow
@@richardholdener1727 awe man. Well that's no fun but it is what it is. Thanks
wow the low tq being better on the dual plane versus long runner efi also showed up in this test.
I’m wondering if you ran into fuel distribution issues with the carb/dual plane setup. If you had 8 EGTs or 8 O2s you could check for it, but hardly any street installation is going to be set up that way. Multipoint EFI is going to get the fuel itself pretty even, but there may be air distribution issues to cause variance, with all the twists and turns, both air and fuel might be disturbed on a carb setup. Still, interesting results, especially the different rpm peaks in the torque/hp curves. Thanks, Richard!
I'm reading up on how to build an engine dyno because of you. 🤣🤣
Thank you!
Is there an aluminum block 4.8??
I'm guessing the reason the engine lost power at 13.2 on the carb setup is simply down to cylinder to cylinder fuel distribution. You probably got a few cylinders up in the high 13's/low 14's and that was enough to knock a couple hp off. Much less of an issue on EFI.
it didn't like 13.2:1 with efi either
@@richardholdener1727 Interesting, didn't we just see the 5.3 do its best at 12.9 vs. 12 and 11:1? Even if the differences were small?
I'd like to see how it'll do with a throttle body injection like an MSD or Holley along with that dual plane manifold. 🤔
Yup, me too. Holley Sniper or FiTech EFI 4 barrel on the same intake mani and spacer setup please. 🙏
@@dan91sgarage yes! I forgot to mention FiTech. Lol
Yes, what about that Ace TBI kit.
I've had both a LS2 with CNC ported LS3 heads with a 226 duration intake 236 duration exhaust 600 lift on intake and exhaust aftermarket camshaft with a GM single plane intake with a Holley HP 850 carberator redlines at 7200rpm had this setup from 2008-2021 now have a GM performance LS3 495 horsepower crate engine with CNC ported and milled LS3 heads with a 219 duration intake 228 duration exhaust with 525 lift intake and exhaust with a 102mm throttle body and sheet metal intake with ZL1 injectors and fuel pump redlines at 6600rpm tuned and runs on E85 the LS2 carberated engine made 540 horsepower at 6700rpm with 470 foot pounds of torque at 5200rpm at the crank the LS3 fuel injected on E85 made 520 horsepower at 6200rpm and 495 foot pounds of torque at 5000rpm at the crank so it's down 20 horsepower vs the carberated engine with a more mild camshaft but with the injected engine from 3000-6200rpm is up 25 foot pounds of torque in some of the rpm range 30-35 more torque than the carberated LS2 but the carberated LS2 was better 6200rpm up I've had the injected LS3 now for 11 months and so far l really don't miss the carberator and the headaches of tuning it once a year and replacing 80 dollar spark plugs every 12-16 months because the carberator needs to be tuned after 1200 miles on the injected LS3 running E85 after inspecting the spark plugs after 1200 miles they look close to new after 1200-1500 miles with the the carberated LS2 it's time to change the spark plugs if you want it running it's absolute best if your going to be street driving the vehicle and idling at stop lights the fuel injection is better but l can see a carberator working well on something that is more of a drag race vehicle that will need more maintenance and tuning the throttle response with the carberator tuned was really good but l think the throttle response of the fuel injection is slightly better and so far has been untouched now 11 months
If you want the carb look, just go Holley sniper EFI 4br (or two even) and get the much better tuneability of efi with the look (and feel/sound from my experience) of a carb without all the nuisance.
There's nothing wrong with carbs. People who don't like carbs, don't know how to tune them!
Richard said to tune a dual plane with a tbody style aftermarket efi is possible but not easily repeatable. Most t body systems run better with a single plane wet manifold.
@@erikturner5073 Richard literally just proved my point on WHY carbs are not as good lol🤷 the air fuel will NEVER be exactly how you want it and HE absolutely knows how to tune a carb. It's not rocket science. Guys who refuse to see that are just afraid of fuel injection and don't know how to tune modern efi pcms 👌✌️(ps it's even easier than a carb 😱). I like carbs. They are cool and I enjoy the Holley 2brl on my dad's 68 f100 very much. But, it will eventually get fuel injected because, it will just be all around better. Otherwise, the world(including nascar) would have stuck with carbs 👆)
@@jasonrose6562 yes but the fuel injected single plane imo would still be better than a DP with a carb. Now, demon carbs and the like are flat out awesome. But, good luck starting that and taking off for work at 4 in the morning when it's 15 degrees outside. Mpfi is absolutely the best but not always the cheapest when the engine didn't come that way stock. I'm not a big fan of tbi really either but, tuned right they can get pretty serious fuel mileage.
@@lifeonadime4703 regardless of how you feel about carbs, they aren't going anywhere in the Hot Rod world. I'm a master Auto technician (for 26years) and I perfer carbs on my muscle cars. They are still too popular for that for that and for good reason!👍 There's too many videos proving the viability of carbs as well as them making as much and even more power than EFI, for the fraction of the cost! Also Richard used carbs and has vouched plenty of times in favor for carbs. So there you have it! Also plenty of companies are making carb intakes for the Ford 4.6, and 5.4, the new Dodge Hemi engines, and also LS engines as well. Obviously carbs are not going anywhere and are still very popular!
I’d like to know what jets you ended up with?
I like to see a adaptive intake manifold like the 392 hemi but nobody makes one for the LS engines
I'd try the torker intake
You'll get even more power from efi with a tbss/nbss intake. It's cheaper to go fuel injection especially when pulling everything from the yard. You'll have everything down to the harness/ecu to run it. And as far as vats being turned off, there's even free ways to do it now. If you go carb, then you still have to buy the carb, intake, and msd box. About an extra 700 plus
THE TBSS ISN'T WORTH MUCH ON A STOCK 4.8L
Very interesting test. I am surprised to see that power is already dropping off at 13.2 : 1 AFR I presume that the factories are compelled to set AFR at the stoichiometric ratio of 14.7 :1 to minimise emissions. I would like to see you do power tests at AFR values ranging from 14.7 to 14 , 13.5, 13.0 and 12.5. This should be fairly easy to do just by altering the block of no.s in the fuel table and everything else held constant. Can you arrange this. This would give us some appreciation of what the factories have to deal with.
Regards, John
you don't run 14.7:1 at wot-the factory doesn't do that either. that is a cruise a/f ratio
A tunnel ram may have been closer to the long runner truck manifold.
It would be interesting to see this comparison with a slightly stronger cam with a smallish lsa, maybe the dualplane could give driveability as well as a strong midrange. Just a thought. 🙂
both will gain from any cam
@@richardholdener1727 Oh yes, I'm well aware of that. 🙂
What I'm getting at is that even though the truck manifold most likely will outflow and make more hp no matter what, maybe the dualplane instead could make for a really strong midrange (~2-5k rpm) and have idle/part throttle manners with the divider in the plenum. Maybe not enough to make big difference in the end, but maybe still a route worth taking if you for some reason want/have to run the dualplane and get the most out of it. 🙂
@@richardholdener1727 hi 👋 Richard from 🇨🇦 #YSW where I follow you 💯 from have a wonderful Saturday evening respect back to you
Maybe 450cfm carb would have been less sensitive to jet changes and the vacuum signal would have helped throttle response
Hello Richard,
Considering an engine and tyranny upgrade for my 4wd LS 2000 Tahoe with iron block 5.3. Have already upgraded suspension, brakes and 18" wheels. Interior is great shape too. Has the bi-fold twin rear doors, not a tail gate.
Goal is 375 to 400 hp with good low end torque, improved efficiency and teamed with a new 4L80.
Considering swapping 3.73 to 3.23 differentials.
Can you recommend long tube header size and exhaust.
Result being the same or slightly better performance with much better highway mpg at lower rpm.
Carb versus EFI Testing of the 4.8 answered one if the questions I had.
New full size SUVs are bonkers money these days.
Thanks for your real world videos.
Keith
The best tyranny upgrade is the Saddamn Hussein mod.
I would be interested in the truck efi compared to duel plane/Holley sniper TBI. I like the thought of the old school look with efi setup. Especially with the gold Holley body.
THE TBI INJECTION ADDS NOTHING TO THE INTAKE TEST-SAME RESULTS
Thanks Richard.
I would love to see a stock gen 3 5.3 run. With just a edelbrock pro flo Carb Style efi systems
same results on this intake
My take-away from this test is that the LS Performer intake manifold is not the best at cylinder-to-cylinder fuel distribution. That is evident by the noted loss of power when attempting to use anything leaner than 12.5:1 Air/Fuel mixture ratio. It is easy to achieve with port fuel injection. It is difficult to design a wet-flow intake with cylinder-to-cylinder distribution to be near optimum, which is required to run the leaner mixture ratios. When one cylinder tends to be leaner than the rest, you must richen the overall engine's mixture ratio to bring that one cylinder into the safe/power mixture zone. It is not necessarily a huge detriment on an engine being built for performance but it is a detriment when looking for fuel efficiency as well if that is a primary consideration.
I wanna see more 6.0 bigg cam. Big nitrous stuff
When it's getting down to performance.... it would also be nice to see the basic petroleum use on each setup, as M.P.G,s ,I know without the specimen being placed in a actual demo vehicle it may be more challenging to crush numbers...or may be easier to say which one burns lesser fule.. thanks again...
we can't do mpg on the dyno and you don't get good MPG at WOT
I get that... the majority of Auto Makers have always claimed that fule injection 💉 smoothness has a better fule efficiency,... but thinking about the New Holly fule injection with same four barrel mounting for simplicity...may be interesting to give those new age babies a run?....
I would like to see a larger carb tuned right to see if it would match the efi with more airflow.🤔
IS ONLY 325 HP-THE CARB SIZE IS ENOUGH TO SUPPORT ANOTHER 150 HP
Maybe it was the plenum volume that made the differenc? 🤔
Or maybe a 3" carb spacer?
Other tests I’ve seen you do show the carb performing better due to charge air cooling of the fuel.
This test probably has more to do with the intakes than carb or efi but I was surprised the efi long runner intake performed better at higher rpm so maybe a better explanation or test might be required to clear everything up.
I'd like to see how the gen4/TBSS would compare.
those vids are up-not worth much on a stock 4.8L
Starting video, my bet is carb, because cooling effect. Lets see if was right. 😁EDIT interesting results.
Cooling effect? *FACEPALM*
I think when the two runs times are compared the EFI will be a fair bit quicker witch means the EFI basically kicked the carb’s ass a bit, very interesting to see the difference the carb did well I think 👍🏻🏁
Its been proven over and over that carbs have better throttle response.
@Richard Holdener Any suggestion on replacement lifters? Are Delphi any good being so much cheaper than the OEM Style LS7 lifter?
Have you ever made an open plenum intake into a 4 chamber plenum. Using a small opening to balance intake pulses. Increases velocity? Maybe help throttle response?
4 chamber plenum?
@@richardholdener1727 taking an 4barrel intake and putting dividers in the intake
Do you think that these results would be exaggerated on a 6.0l with a cam and heads?
Please do a high compression 305 Chevy build. I want to know what a small strokey engine would do on the minimum requirement for E85 [70%]. Love your content.
[edit: just how high could you safely go on E70? 13:1,14:1?]
Ethanol will handle 15:1 easily, especially with a decent cam. Remember it's not the static compression, it's the dynamic.
@@ChurchAutoTest I'd imagine that the safe level of compression would be different, given different levels of ethanol in the mixture. Do you actually think that E10 and E85 have the same knock properties?
AND LOTS OF OTHER THINGS
@@middleclassthrash Hello? Did you read the post? Guy asked how much E70 can handle. 15:1 easily is the answer.
Try the 1995 4AFE and the classic 22RE
Ever going to do a performance engine or just cheap junkyard cam efi LS combo's?
what is your definition of a performance motor-maybe watch the many, many 1000+ hp junkyard turbo motors
@@richardholdener1727 a boring junkyard ls. Done to death.
How about a 4.8 with stock fuel injectorsand rail, a mid rise intake, and a 4150 style throttle body?
will the stock rail work on the Holley?
@richardholdener1727 I haven't tried yet but I have heard that it will work with the Holley that is tapped for injectors. I have also heard the the stock rail flows better than the Holly rail. I was hoping you could tell me. 😆😅 I am building a 1962 BelAir and have a 4.8 4l60 that I will be using. I want to retain a similar look to the original but be able to run fuel injection. I don't want to go to TBI. I can't find any performance numbers or reliable information on this option but figured, they make the parts, it must work at least some what decent. Thanks for all of your videos. They are both informative and entertaining.
I would like to see the same test but now with a cam designed for a carb motor instead of the stock efi cam.
Okay, a factory cam is designed to make smooth driveable power and as best economy and emissions as can be expected in the engine of a vehicle it's designed to be used in. The fuel system is designed to keep the fuel mixture correct, throughout the engine's entire range of operation. Every camshaft designed for a gasoline engine is a carburetor cam and every cam designed for every gasoline engine is also an EFI cam. The camshaft is not different, it's only what controls the fuel mixture that's different. Camshaft designs have changed because of computing power and programs at the engineers fingertips.
Most of the time, you can make more hp and torque with a carburetor without making any changes to the engine, but if you want to make hp and still get great mileage and be able to go from low altitude to high altitude and keep nearly zero emission while doing it, EFI rules. If you want to add a turbocharger to an engine, it's way more simple and practical to start with an EFI engine.
Every engine is a turbo engine and every cam is a turbo cam (I Iearned this is true from Richard and this channel ).
EDIT: I didn't make this reply to sound like I know it all but when I read it back, I don't feel that great about it, but what it says is true.
this cam is designed for a carb-so is every other cam-and also for efi
Well I'm glad i got that clarified now, i just had the idea looking at different cam manufacturers how they offer some carb specific cams vs efi cams. I think I've read somewhere the difference was at the opening ramps but again that might have been depending on the application.
I really appreciate all the time and effort Richard puts into doing this real world testing. We learn a lot from you Richard, thanks a lot.
@@celasuperman Richard is doing a really great thing here. I only wish the guys can ignore the engine brand he puts on the dyno, and realize what he is showing us is applicable to the engine we have right now or for the engine we want to put in our Hot Rod. Everything applies to our application as well as the one he is testing even if you have a 4 cylinder or a V6 and he's testing a V8. He stays away from the extremes and gives the regular Joe a chance to build a great running engine right out of the box.
Hey Richard, I know this question will probably get me some hate but maybe not... Do you have an opinion in regards to the Edelbrock performer AVS carbs and have you tested any on some LS carb setups? Thanks sir!
those carbs seem to work well on mild street applications
@@richardholdener1727 Thanks Richard. Your the king of Dyno stuff so I figure you would be the most likely person to have experience with them!
I would like to see what combo (cam, heads, intake..) would be best for low to mid pulling power. NA and turbo, 5.3, 6.0, 6.2.
From all the videos I watched from Richard he likes the stage 1 truck cams for a towing applications. Anything bigger just gains out in the high RPMs but loses a lot down low
Although those truck Norris cams make good power without losing much on the bottom end
The stock ls heads and intakes support plenty of power. Unless you are racing and trying to get high RPMs horsepower
"I saw dis video but, I wanted to ask Richard a question ?" 😋
ask away
Did the 4.8 like the 4-hole spacer? Or did it not make a difference in power
it did
@@richardholdener1727 do you think the 750 carb was to big or just right
I'd like to see single plane I bet the graphs get closer to truck intake.
no-the single plane loses everywhere on this mild motor
@@richardholdener1727 ok I have the single plane would that 4 hole spacer help me? Or should I just get the dual plane.
Just out of curiosity, I’d love to see this test repeated but with a short runner efi plenum and a single plane carb plenum
not good intake choices on this mild, stock motor
Common sense should tell you a single plane would not be good here.
Rich I never see where a 4 hole spacer helps an ls engine in any case unless you want all bottom end power however a 1 inch open spacer is worth 1 to 2 tenths in the quarter mile on every ls we worked on and tested at the track
if someone tells they have never seen a 4-hole spacer work-that is all I need to know.
@@richardholdener1727 It works great on my 302 but on the LS it smothered the motor I prove my stuff where it counts on the track not a dyno I'm just stating facts
A four-hole spacer is better for the carburetor venturis by allowing for a longer straight-flow path which is actually better for the carburetor velocity and actual flow volume/cfm. The same is to be said for the other side (the top of the carburetor, when using a stub-stack or velocity stack on the airhorn- it straightens the flow into the venturi on the top-side. Both are very effective at increasing the carburetor flow and performance when space under-hood allows their installation without restricting the airflow into the airhorn.
The open-spacer can benefit certain engines especially when the added plenum volume is needed for the engine capacity, and as a way to slow the air/fuel mixture's velocity from the bottom of the throttle plates to make a tighter turn into the intake manifold runner in some cases.
Whether on a dyno, or in the chassis on the track, trial and error will yield the answer to which is better for that particular combination.
@@BuzzLOLOL In the old days, we used to say we were "souping up" the engine when we added performance parts. I guess Hot Rod has moved on to "Tossing Salad" parts on theirs!
Why don't you use a different color for each test on the power graphs with a small index in the corner? It would make it a lot easier to understand for everyone.
can't
Hey Richard which Holley 750 did you use? Is that a vacuum secondary or mechanical secondary? I've had better luck with a vacuum secondary with a metering block for secondary jets. Also a slightly lighter spring in the secondary diafram depending on the camshaft.
Do you think you would had better results by using a 600 cfm carburetor vs the 750 cfm carburetor?
mechanical
Is this a tuning issue? Maybe tuned efi will get that little bump of power low down?
Richard could you test a tsp 216/220 low lift versus a truck norris
Richard was that a gimic
as efi have `perfect` air/fuel ratio, shouldn`t the computer based system perform better at every rpm. how long(and varied) did the efi get to run before the vs test
what is a perfect air fuel?
@@richardholdener1727 apparantly the ecu is not confident in his answer :)
@@richardholdener1727 - The one that works best …
And after you figure that out, it’s a lot easier to achieve with EFI …
very interesting.
Do the same test and add nitrous 👌🏾
just adds to the curve that is there
Is the relatively small truck throttle body causing any issues for the EFI? It seems to me a 750 CFM carb would have the ability to flow a lot more air (whether the engine can use it or not) than would a 78mm TB. Not sure how it would affect it overall ... might even hurt the bottom end torque more than it already was in comparison to the dual plane ... would be interesting to find out, though.
THE THROTTLE BODY IS NOT A RESTRICTION AT STOCK POWER LEVEL
@@richardholdener1727 - If it's not a restriction, then why not use a carb which flows the same as the truck TB? I'd lay wager the 750 will outflow the 78mm TB by a fair amount. Make it as close to apples-to-apples as you can make it for a fair test.
Has anyone ever tested performance with a 2 barrel on an LS? Particularly a 4.8?
Richard, do you think a carb cam, 108 or 110 LSA, would have helped the carbed numbers much?
there is no such thing as a carb cam
No such thing as a carb cam. More internet car forum bologna.....
Hi Richard, with carb do you run more timing advance?
WER ADVANCE IT TIL IT STOPS MAKING POWER
I’m curious if this would take a 600-650 carburetor instead of the 750???
it would
Hi my name wayne and i
Have a 1971 chevy c10 350 engine 4 barrel holley
650 i need your opinion if
You can I appreciate it
go with efi siniper 2 or swap ls 5.3 engine let me
Know thank you
no need for efi with that combo-just upgrade the 350 with heads and cam. An LS swap would add power
Because of the way the heads flow could a single plane intake work better?
no
You can check the comparison of the single vs the dual plane vs the stock EFI truck manifold in this video.
th-cam.com/video/Twnid-se9Ug/w-d-xo.html
As Richard always says
"That's what a dual plane (long intake runner) does"
"That's what a single plane (short intake runner) does".
EDIT: Every time.
Would a smaller carb or different carb make a difference?
maybe for driveability
Curious to know what kind of timing table u are running on the carburetor setup I have a 6.0 with a Carb
same as EFI +2 degrees (31 total at hp peak, less at torque peak and below)
@@richardholdener1727 thanks! Also love your videos! Always extremely helpful and detailed and just great quality, thanks again.
@@richardholdener1727 also this car is more or less a street/strip car, should I do progressive up 31 or just 31 lock out from 2k rpm up?
less at peak torque and below as I included in the comment
Your the best
Can you do a test with a ls3 intake ona 4.8/5.3 with adapter plates
that is a terrible combo-I have tested it
Ok rich....i have an 87 gmc k10....5.7 tbi....im getting oil in the coolant...but no coolant in the oil....i found 1 guy online w similar issue....he found out it had some hairline crack between to oil galleys and cooling passages....oil pressure is higher then coolant so the flow went hi to low....but i cant understand is when engine is off....the oil goes to zero and the coolant stays 15 psi til it cools over several hrs.....why it dont leak into oil?? Anyway...im thinkin 454.....what years...junkyards...price should i be in? Thx
My guess is EFI.
Can you test a retro ls intake setup on that 4.8
retro ls intake?
@Richard Holdener it'd the lokar setup that looks like the old mechanical injection
Hey Richard I have a 5.3 with stage 2 cam, single plane msd6014 and with a 625 demon carb my only problem is that it diesels on 87 but not on 91 I tried the timing on with 87 and no luck I have no problem running 91 but it’s kinda pricy and wanna use 87 instead any suggestions would help thank you!
too much initial timing
@@richardholdener1727 what initial timing you recommend thank you for responding!
Hi Richard. Which aftermarket cam makes more torque and power in an 5.3 but has a smooth idle?
You should really watch one of his many videos on the topic.
torque cam
@@DWBmotorsports I love his videos
@@richardholdener1727 thank you Sir
Man watch the video on the NSR cam
What's a good size single & twin turbo combos for a .020 6.2 with 823 heads I want to know sizes not like models of turbos thanks for any help
what is the desired power level
@@richardholdener1727 I want it to be capable of 800 to 1000 hp at the crank maybe keep it around 700 daily driver or turn it up if I want/ need to LoL
Posting before watching.. . . The performer rpm for the ls isn't very good, my money is on the stocker here.
Good guess for a Ford guy!
I’m doing a ls 5.3 lm7 swap carbed on my 85 c10 with a msd 6014 and a electronic fuel pump, anything else I need to make it run as a fun daily?
carb
What electric fuel pump would be good for the carb
What was the AFR curve of the EFI setup?
we adjusted til it didn't change power
@@richardholdener1727 I mean you posted the AFR graph of the carb setup, but not for the EFI. It would be nice to see how nice an EFI AFR graph is compared to the Carb.
Do a coyote motor same way
Maybe 4.8 would have made more power up top with a 650
Like, share, subscribe, ring the bell. Do all that stuff. Tricky Ricky needs a new pair of shoes
Smaller carb would have helped, losing velocity
Is there anyone here that is knowledgeable in building ls turbo systems and is near Seattle Washington that can tune a new 6.0 ls?
👍💪
Test test... quench.
I rather have peke power at lower rpms below 5k
I’d really like to see a carb comparison between the 750 and a 625 or so, I wouldn’t be surprised if there was pooling going on with lowered velocity. I bet there’s 30hp there
nope
Why would you compare a known bad intake with a good intake 🤔. Also previous carb videos you’ve done show the carb setup made more power So now you make this showing the opposite
no previous test has been run on these two intakes on a stock 4.8L and what other previous test showed a dual plane performer making more than a truck?
I know that they make good mules, I'm getting sick of ls motors.