Retired Tool maker/ Machinist here. I can see that your fork is made from cast-Al. Very week material. Love the idea (more power!) Extruded Al is much stronger for the long term impact and stress. America needs to get back to Made in the USA. Love the channel and videos. Got my first e-bike because of you sir. God speed everyone.
300 bux down better than a broken face etc. I just pulled the trigger on the Aerial Grizzly Dual EVERYTHING! I know you tested the X, maybe a testing of the Grizzly and a few words with Aerial Rider may point the right direction. I never saw this catastrophy coming. Total bummer but could be so many times worse. The Misstress needs a stable mate, thanx again. Twice you have influenced my purchasing, 2 Himis and a Grizzly. Patreon my Brother, a Hondo pledged a year ago now makes 2! (if your wife knew about the Patreon program we would be signed up already) Dang dude you doubled the subs too! Congratulations! Ride ON!
I'm so glad you were not hurt. I'm more impressed that your bike was still there when you came back. Leaving it at a school no less. You live in an amazing town. Props to the people that live there!! I love your channel and all your builds. Keep doing what you do. Right or wrong😉
Hey Citizen, I am glad you weren't hurt or even worst! I have always wondered when the first disaster was going to happen. I kind of knew messing with motors and getting the right torque arms are important. I know it can be done because there are e-bikes made with front and rear hub motors. I have one! You just have to get the correct front forks that can handle that sort of torque. You'll figure it out! Thanks for the great content!!!
Awe man I'm so sorry. I've been waiting to see the results of your build every time you post a new video. To bad it broke on the reveal, but kudos for still showing a video on what went wrong instead of just the positive love your videos, watch just about every one
Hi Buddy, you inspired me to turn my Maxfoot MF-19 1000w bike into an all wheel drive. I also added a Bafang 750w to the front. I used the forks and wheel with motor from the maxfoot trike MF-30 I bought my wife (that thing was too crazy and tips over very easily, she fell badly and never wanted to ride it again) It has great torque but only gets up to 20-22 mph. Looks great 24” front wheel and 20” rear
Dang, I've heard of this happening but never seen it. I'd love to post up what exact fork it is so we avoid it. Steel rigid forks are pretty tough though, but they tend to flex with stress. I dont know of a good solution other than something custom and being careful hitting the front throttle too hard. You dont want to break the head tube off either.
Thank God you're okay! You know you're heading in the right direction! You'll get her done. I'm thinking The torque arms did their job it's when the torque from the motor broke the dropouts that caused the clamps to break! By the way I checked every day about the 3.0 you're still the man!
Fabulous e-bikes makes the all-wheel drive Road Warrier X. I think they use a version of the RST Guide fork for their front motor. Glad you were not hurt!
Wow, glad you weren't hurt... maybe need a machine shop to cnc some custom torque arms. The bike looks nice, do you have another battery in the rear bag?
I did similar with my lankeleisi 750+. It lasted for a week and a half then the front dropouts pulled off. But I just rounded off the ends of my forks and fabricated some steel sleeves with new dropouts cut into quarter steel inch plate. It can be done fairly easily If you have access to a welding apparatus and an angle grinder. I'm planning on putting a bigger motor on the front now.
Stonger forks is a good idea, but I think if you had better torque arms the axle would not have been able to spin enough to break the dropouts as the force would have been distributed in other areas of the fork where the torque arm was mounted. I would check out grin ebikes for a pre made solution and put one on each side. I had the same thing happen on my 3000 watt rear hub motor using a crappy stamped steel torque arm and hose clamp set up. After upgrading torque arms and using one on each side never had a problem. Thanks for the video.
Great video man thanks for making this I'm adding a G60 to my front wheel. From what I understand that torque arm was originally produced by Grin Tech, and was discontinued. But chinese manufacturers stole the design and now they are all over amazon ebay etc. It looks like the hose clamps were the failure point. Grin Tech says "The curved hose clamp slot in this torque arm design put stress concentration points on the clamp, which facilitated the hose clamp tearing in half. As a result we discontinued manufacturing this model in 2010 and do not recommend its usage. " So in this particular case IMO the failure was due to that torque arm design, the curved hose clamp slot, causing the hose clamps to tear in half. I am assuming you figured out your hub motor and got it working with different torque arms. I haven't got to that part yet Lol.
I changed to RST guide front forks, and instead of torque arms I'm using torque washers that seat into the dropout. It's been working perfectly no issues 😁
@@CitizenCycle925 Hey I came back to say I was wrong, I think you're right about the problem being the forks themselves! I got the Grin Tech V3 Torque Arm for my G60, I also used the bafang torque washers that seat into the dropouts. I still had the axle spinout and it snapped one of the dropouts. I think I have the same exact forks you were using, dropouts look identical. So I'm just here to verify those forks are garbo, and not suitable for a front motor 🤣 My assumption was that the torque arms would transfer 100% of the torque away from the dropouts, apparently not, it seems to some extent the strength of the dropouts still matters even with torque arms. Mine broke in the same place almost identical Lol, except the torque arm held the wheel on and I only had one dropout snap off, didn't have both sides break. I have to look into some of those RST guide forks!
I wish I could remember more details, but I’m pretty sure I’ve heard that with a dual hub motor setup, it can make a lot of sense to use a lower powered motor in the front because of some technicality about how the load/forces are spread out. I don’t remember the specifics though, sadly. But maybe something to look into?
It's easier to keep the bike in one piece if the motor is part of pushing the whole bike forward. A motor at the front is only connected to that one wheel, if you get what I mean. It isn't pushing 'into' the whole frame, it's pulling the wheel forward (off) the bike.
@@Tao_Tology very good point, but there are dual motorbikes in existence So I know it can be done I just need to figure out how to reinvent this wheel 😁
I so like your videos.. Glad you are not hurt, which made the video really funny. Shows the human side of you where you can show both your successes and failures. Good on you!!
Hey citizen, I'm gutted to hear that has happened to you. I've been commenting on your videos recently trying to let you know about custom making torque arms or making a torque plate. I also learnt the hard way with this and ruined a bike frame. A video making a torque plate would be great content and would fix the issue and allow you to complete the set-up 👍
Daaaamn! Oh man that’s both heartbreaking and impressive. It did look freaking awesome though - love the lighter streamlined look! I made my Rover super minimal and sleek too, dig that simple and stylish look with performance.
E-Cells uses RST 80mm travel forks with their 750 watt front hub drive, I don't know if the forks are special manufacture or not. They also use a dual crown fork that I upgraded to with 120mm travel, the drop outs are pretty beefy. I recall one owner had a similar incident, but they figured out that the front wheel was improperly installed.Torque arms would be the sure solution, but I'm not sure how they would install, probably have to modify them to use with the forks.
E-cells makes the crown monarch with a 750 front and rear for total 2200 watts. I'd check with them about what do they do to make their front fork so strong.
The bike looked Awesome! Glad you’re ok. I guess a back wheel hub, and possibly a mid drive combined would be safer than having a front drive too. How about a 1,500-2000 watt rear hub? And of course maxes at much more with controller.
I've looked into a adding a mid-drive to my rad but not sure if it would fit. I've done the same as CC and added the ebikeling front hub motor so a mid-drive would mean it would have 3 motors! Not sure where I'd mount a third battery though.
@@buffalomind6838 Yeah, it's already super heavy now with the extra front motor and rear rack battery! Inside the triangle is my original Rad battery on rear rack is a new battery for front hub motor. Extending the rack isn't an option as I have panniers for all my stuff I need to carry. To be honest, a mid-drive also is probably overkill as it easily pulls me up all hills and tops out at 30+mph as it is. Also, the range is huge especially if you just take it easy, it's probably good for 50-60 miles but I've never tested it fully because I'm out for hours at a time and get no where near to emptying the batteries!
@@CraigNiel I agree if you are able to go up hills easily, and have such a long range with speeds of 30+mph then adding a mid drive is just motor and battery excess. In the future you can begin with a mid drive, and make it a high wattage one, so all you have to do is get a later capacity amperage battery. It is a cool concept which can be useful in the rarest of situations “possibly” But again the complication only rises to where at that point be flying a plane. Lol Turning these two off in order to operate the mid drive. Then operating one hub with either your full hand, or thumb while utilizing the mid only to then utilize all three with two hands occupied. Only to continue to decide which one of the three you want to use at whatever point, or any combination of the three would seem to get exhausting at some point. More power when needed in the simplest of actions along with having the largest capacity battery would seem to be ideal.
To boldly go where no cyclist has gone before! May you ride again and prosper. Keep in mind people have died when that happened. Be safe as you travel the galaxy of road in the stellar black tar void.Some bikes have steel forks I hear those are ok for front hub instal.
Geeze! Glad you didn't get hurt. :) Maybe a set of steel non suspension forks? The only 2 wheel drive bike that I know of to be reliable is the Rokon. Great video as always. Thank you.
Glad you’re Ok. Thank you for sharing. I’m looking to do the 750w dual motor installation and I hadn’t factored in the front fork strength. Looking at my dropout’s they would have gone the same way as yours. Do let us know if you find a solution.
Interesting, makes me want to look closer at the other dual motor ebikes. Do you think a name brand fork would do better? The Eunorau Defender S has a regular non-electric fork (I believe).
If the citizen 3.0 was a dual motors, the weight along with rider s weight puts a lot of stress downwards. I was debating to do a dual 2 motor and the weight distribution was first obstacle I thought of. But with me I realized of a bike going over 42mph is too much of watching out for from being hit or thrown off( the little dips and cracks and corners of pavement, major min bump you didnt see) those things are dangerous to encounter going over 20mph. I figure Im a light guy, 1500watt front gearless is fine(42mph on 52v 20ah). With front wheels best frame to use are Next Power Climber, the frame transfer weight forward. Any frame like that one great to use for Front Hub. Citizen X thanks for letting us know and hope you stay safe.
If you could figure a way to mount the motor on a through-bolt style front fork might be strong enough to hold it, but I've heard of the inner tube retaining pins also breaking on front suspension bikes but it's hard to imagine that happening. unless they have nylon mounts internally. Something else to keep in mind with Magnesium and Aluminum, especially in castings, is fatigue life and failure modes. Magnesium and Aluminum typically have a much lower fatigue life, and tend to fail suddenly rather than show signs of cracking before failure
I have the same fork and I was going to install a front gear less hub motor on it but after seeing this I don’t think I’m going to. Where did you have the torque arm mounted? Was the torque arm in the front of the fork or the back?
Hey Citizen I think Biktrix sell those RST Guide forks with the huge dropouts. They are on sale now for around $200 bucks. Maybe they will work. I don’t know if they have 26 inch.
@@lennyrossa834 They sent me a replacement board, but it was not the one for my battery. I am now waiting for another board to arrive that (hopefully) is the correct board.
I'll comment here as well as the other video again on a fork you may be interested in to fix your AWD bike: I had the same thing happen to me. I put a new RockShox Recon RL fork with a 1000w direct drive hub motor on the front, when I was tightening the hub bolts, I remember hearing a loud "click" or "bang" and though nothing of it. This is when it broke... I took it out for a ride and made it about 1/2 mile before the failure, exactly the same failure as yours, ripping through the torque arm "hose clamps". I am much happier now using a Surly Chromoly steel fork although it has no suspension. I have a narrow tire 27.5" bike so I used the Surly ECR fork, but they do make a Chromoly steel fork for 26"x up to 5" tire clearance for fat tire bikes called the Moonlander. So the Surly FK-0705 Moonlander Fork with 135mm Dropout straight-steerer may be worth checking out! Moonlander forks are around $130. I had to do slight dremel filing of the dropouts. My mistake was not making sure the "C" washers (In the torque arm kit) sit properly in the recess of the dropouts, which put uneven pressure on the cast magnesium, creating a stressor that cracked the metal. Chromoly will give compared to AL or MG forks. The dropouts actually look a little less beefy, but Chromoly steel doesn't crack or shatter like cast Aluminum or Magnesium forks. The brake mounts are IS mount not post mount so you may need different adapters if your brakes are currently PM.
R U saying that U had no problem with a direct drive front hub motor, but when you changed to GEARED (lots more torque), that sheared off the fork tips? Could you use a U-Bolt instead of hose clamps to hold the torque arm to the fork? & How coul you stop hose clamps from sliding down the fork? I am thinking that maybe JB weld should be added to the system securing the torque arm.
Another TH-camr shows his homemade torque arm of thick steel. He drilled a top hole thru the flat torque arm & put a bolt with thick washers through it. So the top of the torque arm was not held by a hose clamp, but by a bolt & thick washers which pushed against the fork when back torque came from the motor. Perhaps in your case your torque arm would have worked (better torque arms on both side) if the arm had been considerably longer. It looks like your torque arm itself did not break. Do you need stronger forks if you use long torque arms on both sides of the fork?
Right there with you, 2000 watt motor 72 volt battery on a Rickshaw and about 5 minutes in 😢😢😢 was over. Was awesome for 5 minutes for sure 😅. Same problem
I’m planning on doing a awd setup on my bike. Running 3kw 60v to a 48v 1500w motor. My biggest problem so far is parts supply. My bike is 20x4 and there aren’t really any front hub motor kits for 20x4 bikes unless you get geared. I want to run direct drive since I’m running it on the rear
U say that there aren't any front hub motors that are direct drive? Didn't Citizen Cycle say that he had a direct drive before he changed to a geared hub?
Glad you are OK, and we can laugh about it. Agree with the other comments. Maybe you can fit torque arms by drilling and fastening them in there? Steel forks sound good too.
How did you fit the lock luks, forgot name of device that is adapter to forks bolts. I've seen many ppl put on backwards and assume that is not good to do. The force needs to be towards rotation of tire speed. Having those locks backwards defeats the purpose. I am curious how you fit them as it maybe the reason. It's easy to see the physics of putting on those locks. Dam, forgot name and I just ordered ,2 sets to go with the 2000wstt. I'm planning to use dual motor but rear motor is a gear where I can use cruise control to go along with the front direct drive motor. Once going 20mph on rear gear motor of cruise control. I use the front gearless motor to do 20mph which equals 40mph. Will go faster to 60mph if I go full throttle on front gearless along with 350watt gear front. I put alot of physics in this dual motor as you can't just put on any motor. Has to make sense of combined speed. It is a great formula.
my brother said today i should use the old 500w put it on my bike make AWD ......I then showed him this and explained that how it starts ....think be easy simple enough and next thing you know you need new shocks and then u need this and then involves this and the entire thing becomes more complex than just building another bike .... Both agreed ..and thought your video was fantastic that some one did try it and accomplished at the end and we can see effort it took and if it project worth doing ...conclusion was it worth doing if you done everything else want do it just for experience of doing it .....but not because practical in anyway......As far AWD we could only see that really been practical in place like Swithland where got mountains and great roads ..perfect place for AWD but at cost of less range ..
for me it was definitely worth it. i loved the problem solving challenge and the result is a monster of acceleration and hill climb power. unless you want a project i would just buy an AWD bike instead of building your own. over that last few years i have dumped thousands of dollars into modifying this bike thru various stages. even if you don't live in a hilly area, the acceleration is super fun!!
Doesn't Ariel rider has Bikes with a 1000W motor in front and rear wheel, there's gotta be a manufacturers that makes a strong forks for your motor. Good luck, looking forward to seeing evolution of your bike.
those torque arms have a lot of play. I just tested mine and they shift around a lot. you can't trust them until you see that they absorb torque. thanks for posting this. I have to keep reworking my torque arm.
Same thing happen to my old mountain bike forks. Had a 1000 watt front hub motor and I was just going for a test run and they just gave out. Granted it was a 20 yr Moutain bike. I just thought it was an age thing. So I got a Beach Cruiser with steel forks no suspension on it with a torque arm attached. So far so good. I havent posted my new build until I get some confidence on it.
one more thing I forget to mention on my new build it made it so more more weight towards to back of the bike as oppossed to having it in the middle and front.
Thats too bad , i had high hopes for that project . I wonder how ecells , rambo and other awd sellers avoid that , there doesnt seem to be anything special about their forks . Maybe you could order a replacement fork from ecells , or rambo or some other awd seller . You might bounce it off of bolton ebikes he seems to be open as far as offering upgrades advice on brands other than his own , and i know he did a bunch of fork experimentation a while back . As far as the wobble from the direct drive , i think it comes from the fact that dd motors have a slight drag when not under power . Just my 2c worth . Looking fwd to updates on this subject .
I got an email from I think rambo and they said they do not use special forks because these forks can take a ton of weight.Worries me cause I have a 1k watt motor on mine and approaching 1k miles.I will not be going anywhere near full speed while using the front hub
@@last7509 There are a few folks doing this to lectric and I ride with someone that has an lectric bike and its forks do not seem as hi quality and no brakges.
Had the exact same thing happen to me today but that was while I was going uphill at full throttle at 30km/h. Got quite bruised up by it but am now looking for ways how that could have been prevented.
I have this same issue right now. I have torque arms but they don’t fit very well because I have air forks and the tubes are huge compared to most bikes. I am going to make them fit after seeing this. Fortunately I am using a direct drive motor on a 2 motor setup and I only use it after using the rear geared hub motor for initial acceleration.
Citizen, why not just do a mid drive with a hub on the back? I will probably end up doing that to my own bike. I have noticed that there are extra spacers on the back of the hub to keep it from doing just that, maybe you need like a plate or similar when attaching it to the fork. Probably look at the ariel grizzly for reference. Good luck.
I don't know what suspension fork the Super monarch uses but it's a 26" fat bikes with dual 1000w motors so it should be able to handle your motor. Maybe they would sell you a fork?
Yes that is always a potential problem with forks that were not made to take a motor. I guess a better design would be to have those forks reversed - so that the fingers that broke would face the rear. Don't know if its do-able. Are motorbike forks an option?
Can you adapt a set of forks that are built for a through-axle? That way there's a complete circle of metal round the axle rather than just a U shape.... Maybe.....????
I got an email from the actual manufacturer of one of the dual drive brands and they said they do not use any special forks or even torque plates--in fact if you dig deep you can find the forks on single rear drive ebikes and dual drives have forks that are the same.This worries me since I also turned mine into this and approaching 1k miles on mine with torque plates for extra safety.Makes me wonder if it was simply weak metal which also worries me since most of thsee come from china--but there are videos with folks putting 3000 watt motors on the front--glad you are ok.
@@CitizenCycle925 No--I have a 1000 watt front hub motor--they said these forks should not break unless the motors are over 1500 watts--I mean these forks are on bikes that people use on trails and mild jumps--they should be able to withstand a motor pulling it--I mean if you tied a rope to the forks an average male could generate more force then this motor.
I understand the dual motor set up is kinda unstable off road. If you land wrong, the front end will pull the bike in the direction that the wheel is aimed. Is that true?
i have taken my AWD bikes off road a little and you really have to watch the front end, it loses traction often. great off road power when you are going in a straight line but making turns is tricky.
I hated to see what happened to your bike. I've got a question about something I saw in your video. I noticed that you have the tires of your box trailer on wood blocks. Why do you have them on wood blocks? Thanks.
Oh no, how unfortunate. A possible way to strengthen the mounting point of the front forks is to buy some Amsteel or Dyneema rope it is very strong nylon type braid cord only 1/8th inch wide but with insane break strength and no stretch, and wrap this around the mount bracket lug to the fork, but of course this would slip off, so get some Quiksteel liquid epoxy paste and saturate the rope with this, so when it sets it holds in place, then you can neaten the look with some expoxy putty like JB Weld and spray it up. I have used this method to repair all kinds of things.
as my bike ages I'm thinking about warping all the joints with the stuff bamboo bikes are built with or some carbon or fiberglass as a redundancy so when it brakes hopefully its not a total failure. my last frame cracked because I used one of those same metal hose clamps and the rubber came off allowing the two metals to have a galvanic reaction like it slowly cut the frame in half. Chemistry is cool.
Hi citizen I think if you could find forks that have the dropouts on the back side that would take care of your problem and I got to ask you is himiway pissed off at you waiting for some himiway reviews
Hey CC, I have an Ariel Rider Xclass 52v. I have an extra motor exactly the same 1000w that comes on the bike. Is it feasible to put it on the front of the x52v?
Me thinks you were damn lucky... Contact some of the fork manufacturers and they should be able to recommend the proper setup for that motor. A mountain bike builder/manufacturer is a good place to start as they're built for strength and durability. Good luck.
Thank god you were at a stop .if it broke ounce it will break with the other fork need something way beffier or next time you might not be so lucky . Good luck
@@CitizenCycle925 On your next attempt, maybe turn the power down on the front wheel some, or use the original Rad controller for a softer start on the front. It won't do ya much good anyway if it's just spinning out. Best wishes!
Wow! This is getting dangerous. I wonder if you can buy a fork from another e-bike manufacturer that makes the dual motor set-up, such as E-Cells. At least you would know it could handle the torque. But then you might also have to worry about where the fork pivots on the bike frame and hope that's strong enough to handle it. Looking forward to your solution.
Retired Tool maker/ Machinist here. I can see that your fork is made from cast-Al. Very week material. Love the idea (more power!) Extruded Al is much stronger for the long term impact and stress. America needs to get back to Made in the USA. Love the channel and videos. Got my first e-bike because of you sir. God speed everyone.
Thanks for the comment 🙂 what bike did you buy?
I got the magicycle.
In other words I am in the same boat.
300 bux down better than a broken face etc. I just pulled the trigger on the Aerial Grizzly Dual EVERYTHING! I know you tested the X, maybe a testing of the Grizzly and a few words with Aerial Rider may point the right direction. I never saw this catastrophy coming.
Total bummer but could be so many times worse. The Misstress needs a stable mate, thanx again. Twice you have influenced my purchasing, 2 Himis and a Grizzly.
Patreon my Brother, a Hondo pledged a year ago now makes 2! (if your wife knew about the Patreon program we would be signed up already) Dang dude you doubled the subs too! Congratulations! Ride ON!
I'm so glad you were not hurt. I'm more impressed that your bike was still there when you came back. Leaving it at a school no less. You live in an amazing town. Props to the people that live there!! I love your channel and all your builds. Keep doing what you do. Right or wrong😉
Hey Citizen, I am glad you weren't hurt or even worst! I have always wondered when the first disaster was going to happen. I kind of knew messing with motors and getting the right torque arms are important. I know it can be done because there are e-bikes made with front and rear hub motors. I have one! You just have to get the correct front forks that can handle that sort of torque. You'll figure it out! Thanks for the great content!!!
Awe man I'm so sorry. I've been waiting to see the results of your build every time you post a new video. To bad it broke on the reveal, but kudos for still showing a video on what went wrong instead of just the positive love your videos, watch just about every one
Yes I definitely want to show all the bad stuff too. That way we all know what works and what doesn't
Hi Buddy, you inspired me to turn my Maxfoot MF-19 1000w bike into an all wheel drive. I also added a Bafang 750w to the front. I used the forks and wheel with motor from the maxfoot trike MF-30 I bought my wife (that thing was too crazy and tips over very easily, she fell badly and never wanted to ride it again) It has great torque but only gets up to 20-22 mph.
Looks great 24” front wheel and 20” rear
Glad to hear that you made your own creation 🙂
Dang, I've heard of this happening but never seen it. I'd love to post up what exact fork it is so we avoid it. Steel rigid forks are pretty tough though, but they tend to flex with stress. I dont know of a good solution other than something custom and being careful hitting the front throttle too hard. You dont want to break the head tube off either.
Thank God you're okay! You know you're heading in the right direction! You'll get her done. I'm thinking The torque arms did their job it's when the torque from the motor broke the dropouts that caused the clamps to break! By the way I checked every day about the 3.0 you're still the man!
Fabulous e-bikes makes the all-wheel drive Road Warrier X. I think they use a version of the
RST Guide fork for their front motor. Glad you were not hurt!
Yes I've already reached out to fabulous to inquire about getting a set of forks 🙂
@CitizenCycle925 any luck on better forks just had the same thing happen to me didn't get hurt lukely
I'm glad that you didn't get hurt, but failure is just one of the steps on the way to success. I am looking forward to the new improved version.
I think that using steel forks with the 750 geared hub up front is the way to go. Those cast aluminum forks don't handle twisting forces at all.
Wow, glad you weren't hurt... maybe need a machine shop to cnc some custom torque arms. The bike looks nice, do you have another battery in the rear bag?
I just may have another battery hiding in that bag... 😁
I did similar with my lankeleisi 750+. It lasted for a week and a half then the front dropouts pulled off. But I just rounded off the ends of my forks and fabricated some steel sleeves with new dropouts cut into quarter steel inch plate. It can be done fairly easily If you have access to a welding apparatus and an angle grinder. I'm planning on putting a bigger motor on the front now.
If you put a steel sleeve on an aluminum fork, won't that cause galvanic corrosion?
Stonger forks is a good idea, but I think if you had better torque arms the axle would not have been able to spin enough to break the dropouts as the force would have been distributed in other areas of the fork where the torque arm was mounted. I would check out grin ebikes for a pre made solution and put one on each side. I had the same thing happen on my 3000 watt rear hub motor using a crappy stamped steel torque arm and hose clamp set up. After upgrading torque arms and using one on each side never had a problem. Thanks for the video.
Great video man thanks for making this I'm adding a G60 to my front wheel. From what I understand that torque arm was originally produced by Grin Tech, and was discontinued. But chinese manufacturers stole the design and now they are all over amazon ebay etc. It looks like the hose clamps were the failure point. Grin Tech says "The curved hose clamp slot in this torque arm design put stress concentration points on the clamp, which facilitated the hose clamp tearing in half. As a result we discontinued manufacturing this model in 2010 and do not recommend its usage. " So in this particular case IMO the failure was due to that torque arm design, the curved hose clamp slot, causing the hose clamps to tear in half. I am assuming you figured out your hub motor and got it working with different torque arms. I haven't got to that part yet Lol.
I changed to RST guide front forks, and instead of torque arms I'm using torque washers that seat into the dropout. It's been working perfectly no issues 😁
@@CitizenCycle925 Hey I came back to say I was wrong, I think you're right about the problem being the forks themselves! I got the Grin Tech V3 Torque Arm for my G60, I also used the bafang torque washers that seat into the dropouts. I still had the axle spinout and it snapped one of the dropouts. I think I have the same exact forks you were using, dropouts look identical. So I'm just here to verify those forks are garbo, and not suitable for a front motor 🤣 My assumption was that the torque arms would transfer 100% of the torque away from the dropouts, apparently not, it seems to some extent the strength of the dropouts still matters even with torque arms. Mine broke in the same place almost identical Lol, except the torque arm held the wheel on and I only had one dropout snap off, didn't have both sides break. I have to look into some of those RST guide forks!
@@EBikeBuilder_ I've been running the RST guide forks with my front motor for a while now with no issue and I'm pretty hard on it.
Can't one use U-bolts instead of hose clamps? And steel hose clamps on aluminum is asking for galvanic corrosion.
I wish I could remember more details, but I’m pretty sure I’ve heard that with a dual hub motor setup, it can make a lot of sense to use a lower powered motor in the front because of some technicality about how the load/forces are spread out. I don’t remember the specifics though, sadly. But maybe something to look into?
It's easier to keep the bike in one piece if the motor is part of pushing the whole bike forward.
A motor at the front is only connected to that one wheel, if you get what I mean.
It isn't pushing 'into' the whole frame, it's pulling the wheel forward (off) the bike.
@@Tao_Tology very good point, but there are dual motorbikes in existence So I know it can be done I just need to figure out how to reinvent this wheel 😁
@@CitizenCycle925 I got 1000 w on the rear a hub motor. At the front a 250 w friction drive that just pushes down on the front wheel!
@@CitizenCycle925 10mm 🛠 and bolted it through an through grinder it flat and bolted on sort of like a plate
Curious what went first the torque arm or the dropouts 🤔👍🇺🇸
Good thing you weren't at full speed when that happened .
I'm thankful you were just starting out and came out seemingly well .
I so like your videos.. Glad you are not hurt, which made the video really funny. Shows the human side of you where you can show both your successes and failures. Good on you!!
Hey citizen, I'm gutted to hear that has happened to you. I've been commenting on your videos recently trying to let you know about custom making torque arms or making a torque plate. I also learnt the hard way with this and ruined a bike frame. A video making a torque plate would be great content and would fix the issue and allow you to complete the set-up 👍
We're definitely making a video showing the solution if and when I find one 🙂
@@CitizenCycle925 he, uh, just told you what you need to do. ;)
I've always hated the walk of shame... Been there done that. i can't wait to see how you resolve this.
Daaaamn! Oh man that’s both heartbreaking and impressive. It did look freaking awesome though - love the lighter streamlined look! I made my Rover super minimal and sleek too, dig that simple and stylish look with performance.
I did manage to make it 8 lb lighter
Build some torque arms that go all the way up the lower fork leg.
E-Cells uses RST 80mm travel forks with their 750 watt front hub drive, I don't know if the forks are special manufacture or not. They also use a dual crown fork that I upgraded to with 120mm travel, the drop outs are pretty beefy. I recall one owner had a similar incident, but they figured out that the front wheel was improperly installed.Torque arms would be the sure solution, but I'm not sure how they would install, probably have to modify them to use with the forks.
E-cells makes the crown monarch with a 750 front and rear for total 2200 watts. I'd check with them about what do they do to make their front fork so strong.
The bike looked Awesome! Glad you’re ok. I guess a back wheel hub, and possibly a mid drive combined would be safer than having a front drive too. How about a 1,500-2000 watt rear hub? And of course maxes at much more with controller.
I've looked into a adding a mid-drive to my rad but not sure if it would fit. I've done the same as CC and added the ebikeling front hub motor so a mid-drive would mean it would have 3 motors! Not sure where I'd mount a third battery though.
@@CraigNiel either a double decker rack, or the top tube if there is room inside of the triangle. I just feel fro you if you have to lift the bike. 😉
@@buffalomind6838 Yeah, it's already super heavy now with the extra front motor and rear rack battery! Inside the triangle is my original Rad battery on rear rack is a new battery for front hub motor. Extending the rack isn't an option as I have panniers for all my stuff I need to carry. To be honest, a mid-drive also is probably overkill as it easily pulls me up all hills and tops out at 30+mph as it is. Also, the range is huge especially if you just take it easy, it's probably good for 50-60 miles but I've never tested it fully because I'm out for hours at a time and get no where near to emptying the batteries!
@@CraigNiel I agree if you are able to go up hills easily, and have such a long range with speeds of 30+mph then adding a mid drive is just motor and battery excess.
In the future you can begin with a mid drive, and make it a high wattage one, so all you have to do is get a later capacity amperage battery. It is a cool concept which can be useful in the rarest of situations “possibly” But again the complication only rises to where at that point be flying a plane. Lol
Turning these two off in order to operate the mid drive. Then operating one hub with either your full hand, or thumb while utilizing the mid only to then utilize all three with two hands occupied. Only to continue to decide which one of the three you want to use at whatever point, or any combination of the three would seem to get exhausting at some point. More power when needed in the simplest of actions along with having the largest capacity battery would seem to be ideal.
To boldly go where no cyclist has gone before! May you ride again and prosper. Keep in mind people have died when that happened. Be safe as you travel the galaxy of road in the stellar black tar void.Some bikes have steel forks I hear those are ok for front hub instal.
Geeze! Glad you didn't get hurt. :) Maybe a set of steel non suspension forks? The only 2 wheel drive bike that I know of to be reliable is the Rokon. Great video as always. Thank you.
Glad you are ok. Check with GRIN out of Canada. They are very knowledgeable.
Dude. I am glad you are alive and in good spirits...!! That front drive stuff looks a bit sketchy to me > 🙂
Glad you’re Ok. Thank you for sharing. I’m looking to do the 750w dual motor installation and I hadn’t factored in the front fork strength. Looking at my dropout’s they would have gone the same way as yours. Do let us know if you find a solution.
Interesting, makes me want to look closer at the other dual motor ebikes. Do you think a name brand fork would do better? The Eunorau Defender S has a regular non-electric fork (I believe).
Once I finish mine, I hope to compare to other all-wheel drive bikes on the market 😁
Just glad you are ok. Test pilot 1 test subject 0 lol. Thanks for the video.
If the citizen 3.0 was a dual motors, the weight along with rider s weight puts a lot of stress downwards. I was debating to do a dual 2 motor and the weight distribution was first obstacle I thought of. But with me I realized of a bike going over 42mph is too much of watching out for from being hit or thrown off( the little dips and cracks and corners of pavement, major min bump you didnt see) those things are dangerous to encounter going over 20mph. I figure Im a light guy, 1500watt front gearless is fine(42mph on 52v 20ah). With front wheels best frame to use are Next Power Climber, the frame transfer weight forward. Any frame like that one great to use for Front Hub. Citizen X thanks for letting us know and hope you stay safe.
If you could figure a way to mount the motor on a through-bolt style front fork might be strong enough to hold it, but I've heard of the inner tube retaining pins also breaking on front suspension bikes but it's hard to imagine that happening. unless they have nylon mounts internally. Something else to keep in mind with Magnesium and Aluminum, especially in castings, is fatigue life and failure modes. Magnesium and Aluminum typically have a much lower fatigue life, and tend to fail suddenly rather than show signs of cracking before failure
Thanks for the info!
I have the same fork and I was going to install a front gear less hub motor on it but after seeing this I don’t think I’m going to. Where did you have the torque arm mounted? Was the torque arm in the front of the fork or the back?
Dang man glad your not hurt ,totaly love all the vids and thanks for all the info
Hey Citizen I think Biktrix sell those RST Guide forks with the huge dropouts. They are on sale now for around $200 bucks. Maybe they will work. I don’t know if they have 26 inch.
Glad you're alright! You had it looking good though!!
DANG!! Just saw this glad your ok.
Very sorry your bike got damaged on its maiden ride, but just glad you are ok out of it all. Ride safe!
hows the bms replacment going
@@lennyrossa834 They sent me a replacement board, but it was not the one for my battery. I am now waiting for another board to arrive that (hopefully) is the correct board.
I'll comment here as well as the other video again on a fork you may be interested in to fix your AWD bike: I had the same thing happen to me. I put a new RockShox Recon RL fork with a 1000w direct drive hub motor on the front, when I was tightening the hub bolts, I remember hearing a loud "click" or "bang" and though nothing of it. This is when it broke... I took it out for a ride and made it about 1/2 mile before the failure, exactly the same failure as yours, ripping through the torque arm "hose clamps". I am much happier now using a Surly Chromoly steel fork although it has no suspension. I have a narrow tire 27.5" bike so I used the Surly ECR fork, but they do make a Chromoly steel fork for 26"x up to 5" tire clearance for fat tire bikes called the Moonlander. So the Surly FK-0705 Moonlander Fork with 135mm Dropout straight-steerer may be worth checking out! Moonlander forks are around $130. I had to do slight dremel filing of the dropouts. My mistake was not making sure the "C" washers (In the torque arm kit) sit properly in the recess of the dropouts, which put uneven pressure on the cast magnesium, creating a stressor that cracked the metal. Chromoly will give compared to AL or MG forks. The dropouts actually look a little less beefy, but Chromoly steel doesn't crack or shatter like cast Aluminum or Magnesium forks. The brake mounts are IS mount not post mount so you may need different adapters if your brakes are currently PM.
R U saying that U had no problem with a direct drive front hub motor, but when you changed to GEARED (lots more torque), that sheared off the fork tips? Could you use a U-Bolt instead of hose clamps to hold the torque arm to the fork? & How coul you stop hose clamps from sliding down the fork? I am thinking that maybe JB weld should be added to the system securing the torque arm.
Another TH-camr shows his homemade torque arm of thick steel. He drilled a top hole thru the flat torque arm & put a bolt with thick washers through it. So the top of the torque arm was not held by a hose clamp, but by a bolt & thick washers which pushed against the fork when back torque came from the motor. Perhaps in your case your torque arm would have worked (better torque arms on both side) if the arm had been considerably longer. It looks like your torque arm itself did not break. Do you need stronger forks if you use long torque arms on both sides of the fork?
Right there with you, 2000 watt motor 72 volt battery on a Rickshaw and about 5 minutes in 😢😢😢 was over. Was awesome for 5 minutes for sure 😅. Same problem
I have a 500w Bafang on my e-trike. Now I wonder if that’s too much power to be safe.
CitizenCycle Would tracer over under springer forks work? Aren't they steel?
I’m planning on doing a awd setup on my bike. Running 3kw 60v to a 48v 1500w motor. My biggest problem so far is parts supply. My bike is 20x4 and there aren’t really any front hub motor kits for 20x4 bikes unless you get geared. I want to run direct drive since I’m running it on the rear
U say that there aren't any front hub motors that are direct drive? Didn't Citizen Cycle say that he had a direct drive before he changed to a geared hub?
@@lufknuht5960 he has a 26x4 wheel. I’m personally talking about a 20x4 wheel
Did you have the torque arms on the front or the back of the fork?
Glad you are OK, and we can laugh about it. Agree with the other comments. Maybe you can fit torque arms by drilling and fastening them in there? Steel forks sound good too.
How did you fit the lock luks, forgot name of device that is adapter to forks bolts. I've seen many ppl put on backwards and assume that is not good to do. The force needs to be towards rotation of tire speed. Having those locks backwards defeats the purpose. I am curious how you fit them as it maybe the reason. It's easy to see the physics of putting on those locks. Dam, forgot name and I just ordered ,2 sets to go with the 2000wstt. I'm planning to use dual motor but rear motor is a gear where I can use cruise control to go along with the front direct drive motor. Once going 20mph on rear gear motor of cruise control. I use the front gearless motor to do 20mph which equals 40mph. Will go faster to 60mph if I go full throttle on front gearless along with 350watt gear front. I put alot of physics in this dual motor as you can't just put on any motor. Has to make sense of combined speed. It is a great formula.
my brother said today i should use the old 500w put it on my bike make AWD ......I then showed him this and explained that how it starts ....think be easy simple enough and next thing you know you need new shocks and then u need this and then involves this and the entire thing becomes more complex than just building another bike ....
Both agreed ..and thought your video was fantastic that some one did try it and accomplished at the end and we can see effort it took and if it project worth doing ...conclusion was it worth doing if you done everything else want do it just for experience of doing it .....but not because practical in anyway......As far AWD we could only see that really been practical in place like Swithland where got mountains and great roads ..perfect place for AWD but at cost of less range ..
for me it was definitely worth it. i loved the problem solving challenge and the result is a monster of acceleration and hill climb power. unless you want a project i would just buy an AWD bike instead of building your own. over that last few years i have dumped thousands of dollars into modifying this bike thru various stages. even if you don't live in a hilly area, the acceleration is super fun!!
@@CitizenCycle925 The power gained to hill climb is fun ...but the real power was gained in wisdom from doing ....kudos
Awe. You’ll figure it out and concur this problem & be speeding back on our TH-cams soon.
Doesn't Ariel rider has Bikes with a 1000W motor in front and rear wheel, there's gotta be a manufacturers that makes a strong forks for your motor. Good luck, looking forward to seeing evolution of your bike.
Could transfer the fork from the other dual motor ebike if it the same mounting dimensions
those torque arms have a lot of play. I just tested mine and they shift around a lot. you can't trust them until you see that they absorb torque. thanks for posting this. I have to keep reworking my torque arm.
I wonder if adding JB Weld to the system holding the torque arm would stop the shift? but I don't know if JB Weld will hold to aluminum
Same thing happen to my old mountain bike forks. Had a 1000 watt front hub motor and I was just going for a test run and they just gave out. Granted it was a 20 yr Moutain bike. I just thought it was an age thing.
So I got a Beach Cruiser with steel forks no suspension on it with a torque arm attached. So far so good. I havent posted my new build until I get some confidence on it.
Yours will probably be fine with the steel forks I just really want to have front suspension
one more thing I forget to mention on my new build it made it so more more weight towards to back of the bike as oppossed to having it in the middle and front.
Thats too bad , i had high hopes for that project . I wonder how ecells , rambo and other awd sellers avoid that , there doesnt seem to be anything special about their forks . Maybe you could order a replacement fork from ecells , or rambo or some other awd seller . You might bounce it off of bolton ebikes he seems to be open as far as offering upgrades advice on brands other than his own , and i know he did a bunch of fork experimentation a while back . As far as the wobble from the direct drive , i think it comes from the fact that dd motors have a slight drag when not under power . Just my 2c worth . Looking fwd to updates on this subject .
I got an email from I think rambo and they said they do not use special forks because these forks can take a ton of weight.Worries me cause I have a 1k watt motor on mine and approaching 1k miles.I will not be going anywhere near full speed while using the front hub
I have reached out to my contact at Fabulous, to see if I can borrow a fork from there all wheel drive road warrior bike.
thats what im wondering. ive seen a few other channels do this upgrade with no issue.
@@last7509 There are a few folks doing this to lectric and I ride with someone that has an lectric bike and its forks do not seem as hi quality and no brakges.
Did you have lock washers on it before you put on the bolts?
Had the exact same thing happen to me today but that was while I was going uphill at full throttle at 30km/h. Got quite bruised up by it but am now looking for ways how that could have been prevented.
I have this same issue right now. I have torque arms but they don’t fit very well because I have air forks and the tubes are huge compared to most bikes. I am going to make them fit after seeing this. Fortunately I am using a direct drive motor on a 2 motor setup and I only use it after using the rear geared hub motor for initial acceleration.
Citizen, why not just do a mid drive with a hub on the back? I will probably end up doing that to my own bike. I have noticed that there are extra spacers on the back of the hub to keep it from doing just that, maybe you need like a plate or similar when attaching it to the fork. Probably look at the ariel grizzly for reference. Good luck.
You think this a 52V 15Ah 1000W Ebike Battery Lithium Panasonic 21700 USB very good for a start off on a beginner first Ebike in my life ??
Ariel Rider Grizzly front fork love your videos bud
Different size wheel on that bike though
try contacting area 13 kyle might be able to direct you to a good set of e-bike front forks
I don't know what suspension fork the Super monarch uses but it's a 26" fat bikes with dual 1000w motors so it should be able to handle your motor. Maybe they would sell you a fork?
one word- steel!
I'm looking to put the same forks on my Bee Cool Adventurer, but silver tubes not the gold ones.
could you flip the front fork around?
Yes that is always a potential problem with forks that were not made to take a motor. I guess a better design would be to have those forks reversed - so that the fingers that broke would face the rear. Don't know if its do-able. Are motorbike forks an option?
I suppose any fork that has 135 mm dropout would be an option right ..
did you have the torque arms on both sides of the fork?
Can you adapt a set of forks that are built for a through-axle? That way there's a complete circle of metal round the axle rather than just a U shape.... Maybe.....????
Have you considered reversing the fork next time? This way the motor "pushes" the fork forward, instead of "pulling".
Was thinking the same thing, but that would be a problem mounting the brake caliper. 😃
Yeah I'm not so sure that that would work, I am sourcing stronger forks as my best option right now
Maybe try a BBSHD mid drive?
Bryan, glad only your pride was injured. You are a lucky dude!
im glad yer ok guy. whew.
I got an email from the actual manufacturer of one of the dual drive brands and they said they do not use any special forks or even torque plates--in fact if you dig deep you can find the forks on single rear drive ebikes and dual drives have forks that are the same.This worries me since I also turned mine into this and approaching 1k miles on mine with torque plates for extra safety.Makes me wonder if it was simply weak metal which also worries me since most of thsee come from china--but there are videos with folks putting 3000 watt motors on the front--glad you are ok.
I also have a 1k watt motor on my front and it can keep up 34 mph--I am not going above 25 anymore while using the front motor.
But you are using a direct drive motor and not a geared hub correct?
@@CitizenCycle925 No--I have a 1000 watt front hub motor--they said these forks should not break unless the motors are over 1500 watts--I mean these forks are on bikes that people use on trails and mild jumps--they should be able to withstand a motor pulling it--I mean if you tied a rope to the forks an average male could generate more force then this motor.
Check out the Eunorau defender s awd forks they have a 750w motor front & back
I understand the dual motor set up is kinda unstable off road. If you land wrong, the front end will pull the bike in the direction that the wheel is aimed. Is that true?
i have taken my AWD bikes off road a little and you really have to watch the front end, it loses traction often. great off road power when you are going in a straight line but making turns is tricky.
I hated to see what happened to your bike. I've got a question about something I saw in your video. I noticed that you have the tires of your box trailer on wood blocks. Why do you have them on wood blocks? Thanks.
Just out of curiosity, before it fell apart did the wheel give good traction or did the extra torque produce lots of wheel spin?
I programmed the front motor to the slow start setting. So it actually had less wheel spin then the direct drive motor did
Honest question Citizen. Do you wish that you would have left it set up 2.0? I ask because I’m considering the direct drive setup. Thanks, Kris
Nope, no going back, I'm all in on the geared hub
Right on! Thank you for being the trail blazer on this.
Oh no, how unfortunate.
A possible way to strengthen the mounting point of the front forks is to buy some Amsteel or Dyneema rope it is very strong nylon type braid cord only 1/8th inch wide but with insane break strength and no stretch, and wrap this around the mount bracket lug to the fork, but of course this would slip off, so get some Quiksteel liquid epoxy paste and saturate the rope with this, so when it sets it holds in place, then you can neaten the look with some expoxy putty like JB Weld and spray it up. I have used this method to repair all kinds of things.
Glad you didn't get hurt.
Just did mine on my Aventon Aventure, I used the 1200watt direct drive on the front it works great, you should have just left that set up.
as my bike ages I'm thinking about warping all the joints with the stuff bamboo bikes are built with or some carbon or fiberglass as a redundancy so when it brakes hopefully its not a total failure. my last frame cracked because I used one of those same metal hose clamps and the rubber came off allowing the two metals to have a galvanic reaction like it slowly cut the frame in half. Chemistry is cool.
Thanks for telling me not to put steel hose clamps on an aluminum fork. I wonder if JB weld would disconnect steel from aluminum in an attachment.
might be better off making the 2nd motor a mid drive kit, with heavier chain, etc. front fork sounds like a headache to figure out.
Yikes !!!! ha ha ha... at least you didn't fly over the handlebars !
Hi citizen I think if you could find forks that have the dropouts on the back side that would take care of your problem and I got to ask you is himiway pissed off at you waiting for some himiway reviews
I have not heard from Himiway in a while, maybe they are targeting larger TH-camrs I don't know.
Can you program a soft start in the controller?
Yes and it was already programmed for soft start 🙂
Hey CC, I have an Ariel Rider Xclass 52v. I have an extra motor exactly the same 1000w that comes on the bike. Is it feasible to put it on the front of the x52v?
Not sure if that would be possible or not. The x-class forks look stronger, but they are also upside down front forks which might be an issue...
Damn that sucks man.Glad your ok though.
I fail so others don't have to 😁
@@CitizenCycle925 The sacrifices.
Me thinks you were damn lucky... Contact some of the fork manufacturers and they should be able to recommend the proper setup for that motor. A mountain bike builder/manufacturer is a good place to start as they're built for strength and durability. Good luck.
Thank god you were at a stop .if it broke ounce it will break with the other fork need something way beffier or next time you might not be so lucky . Good luck
Grin tech torque arms
Wow! Hope you weren't injured, other than your pride. Trial and error; stay at it.
Thank your lucky stars that you were at a start and not cruising down the road at 40mph!
Yes very thankful for that, I was taking it pretty easy just testing the waters and it didn't take much to break it
@@CitizenCycle925 On your next attempt, maybe turn the power down on the front wheel some, or use the original Rad controller for a softer start on the front. It won't do ya much good anyway if it's just spinning out. Best wishes!
were the forks steel ?
definitely not
@@CitizenCycle925 I got a cheap tricycle steel forks and a 1500w 48volt motor works great
Try ecells
They use a 1500 geared motor on there awd
I haven't had any problems with mine
Wow! This is getting dangerous. I wonder if you can buy a fork from another e-bike manufacturer that makes the dual motor set-up, such as E-Cells. At least you would know it could handle the torque. But then you might also have to worry about where the fork pivots on the bike frame and hope that's strong enough to handle it. Looking forward to your solution.
Checking into forks from awd ebike manufacturers