The point of a stabilizer is to compensate for the geometry issues created by the bow. In a perfect archery system, the archers hands would be in the centre of the bow, both at the nock and at the grip, creating a symmetrical spring with which to launch the arrow. Unfortunately this means that the arrow is going to have to go through the archer's hand. To avoid this, the grip is moved below the arrow, but this creates a point of pressure below the centreline of the bow which causes the bow to kick upwards on release. The stabilizer is there to counteract this kick and ensure that the arrow leaves cleanly without an upward kick affecting the flight of the arrow. Having a stabilizer sticking out the front of the bow creates a front-back imbalance, so having a rear stabilizer helps to correct this imbalance while enhancing the resistance of the bow to the upward kick.
I run a 12 in the front and a 8 in the back for hunting. The way I figured out what I needed was to draw with my eyes closed and then look at my bubble and adjust, it really helped my form.
Thanks for the info Chris, would love to see you shoot your bow in a long range situation with and without your stabilizer to see the difference in grouping.
I’ve watched countless videos on stabilisation and no one has ever explained the advantage of adding bias to the bow in a way that makes perfect sense. I’ve tried it for myself now and it’s a game changer. Thanks Chris.
With my V3, the bow without any stabilizers, front and back, is already well balanced. It is possible to hunt without stabilizers period and the effect on the shot without stabilizers is negligible in hunting situations. As a result, I simply shoot with a single rubber stabilizer "stacker" ball and really, that is only to hold my wrist strap on. I have hunted with a simple small bolt in the stabilizer bar hole once again to simply hold my wrist strap on the bow. Lugging around in the woods all that extra weight is pointless IMO. And lengthy stabilizers whether out the front or back has more potential to hurt you in the tree, whether in the saddle or stand than to help when you are making the shot. Thanks for sharing the tech info Chris. Very interesting and I learned some stuff today.
The point of stabilizers is not to balance the bow. The point is to increase the bows moment of inertia, essentially this makes it harder to move the bow. More force is required to move the bow 2 degrees with stabilizers than without. A good bow is balanced from the factory or close to it. However, they are compact, and their moment of inertia is very small. Stabilizers can help in wind or if you are shaky because the same force will move your aiming point less. Like Chris said. do what feels best, but that is how it works
I sat in Blair Sandberg’s kitchen back in the spring of 2007 and he gave me a physics lesson on rotational torque and why designed the original b-stinger the way he did. It’s awesome to see that he innovatived the stabilizer and archery world and we are doing everything differently.
@@rayking3466or releases they have in stock. Of all of the shops around fairly close to me (10-15 w/in 2hr drive) I don't know if any that won't let you try things.
I'm only 15 and your videos are helping me with my bow hunting skills and what is necessary for my bow. I basically have the same hunting setup as up. Thanks Chris
I have started looking more into stabilizers as I just got my first ever deer at 32 with my uncle's 30 year old bow he gave me long ago, and decided to get a flagship bow (Bowtech SR350) as I'd finally done his bow justice and gotten a harvest with it. I'm not sure how I feel about it all yet. I was able to pull off a Robinhood at 25 yards within my first month of practicing with his bow again (PSE Edge 1000C, it had been years since I'd shot it and I started working on my form to get back into archery), and the only stabilizer I had on it was a Trophy Ridge 8" dampener more or less. It was definitely much less forgiving, but it forced me into proper form for results. I'm of the mind that all the gadgets arent necessarily necessary so long as you pound correct form into your head and dont rush or take shots you shouldnt. You sorta touched on that with stripping all the weight off a new bow or new form but still. It just feels a little to foreign to the art of archery. But If I go down that rabbit hole too long I'll end up at bare bow archery and no one wants that x'D
When I'm hunting my setup us short because I do a lot of stalking and very little stand hunting honestly. However I do have weights added to a short stubby back bar to balance out my quiver/arrow weights.
Thanks for the teachings. I’ve been learning for past four years on my own just from watching videos like yours and others. I don’t have access to a club unless I travel 3.5 hrs away and they’re not available most times on the weekends. Archery isn’t very popular in my neck of the woods. Maybe a few guys who only hunt one month out of the year. So, I appreciate the time you put into the vids.
I was today years old my bow likes to lean to the right and I have to tilt it the left to get my bow level and when I shoot and I follow through my bow it self dirfts left I never thought about why my bow goes that way but it makes sense now You taught me something new thanks chris
As a hunter and not a competition shooter, I feel that these extended stabilizers would be EXTREMELY cumbersome in any hunting situation, but especially in a tree stand. The only stabilizer I use is a 4.5 inch LimbSaver... mostly for vibration absorption. Multiple long stabilizers will never compensate for lack of practice.
I agree to an extent, but surprisingly having a 15inch stabiliser makes it easier to carry around for me because I can put it over my back and carry it like cam hands does, makes it feel lighter because it’s comfortable to hike with
You can say that but at the same time you have a 27” + sized arrow sticking out of the bow until you draw back. So in a way everyone already has a long and cumbersome object to maneuver around trees and limbs before we draw
@@matthewgroseclose4973 You are assuming a lot. I don't walk around with a knocked arrow on my string. Our mountains in Arkansas are not just dirt and rock like out west. The mountains here are covered with forest. I walk in before sunrise with a climbing stand to a location with converging deer trails or big buck sign that I scouted months in advance. I then climb a tree that I have already prepared by trimming limbs that might hinder my movement, pull up my bow by rope, knock an arrow and hang the bow on a limb hanger and wait for muy grande or meat to walk by. If I am going to stalk, I never walk around with an arrow nocked up. You are correct, it would be terribly cumbersome... so, I never do it.
Throw that limbsaver toy right in the trash.. if your arrow is nocked hanging next to you in your tree stand why not have a longer stabilizer? You’ll hold steadier with a longer bar. And even more with a rear bar. Fact.
Thanks for this vid. I haven't put a ton of thought into my stabilizers other than that "they should balance out the bow...right??" The side bias reducing chances of error makes a lot of sense. I will have to try kicking my back stabilizer out a little and see what it does for my consistency.
Stabilizers increase the rotational inertia of the entire bow rig. You lever mass as far from rotational center as reasonable to resist the tendency for rotation. They also assist with vibration diffusion after the shot lets loose.
Thanks for the video Chris, I agree that stabilizers could be something that is overly complicated, when it shouldn't be. I also agree that a stabilizer won't fix bad form lol. I'm sure that the two stabilizer setup is really helpful in the elk woods when those long shots present themselves, archery elk hunting is primarily what I do so I may want to give that a try in the future.🤙🏽🐝
Hi engineer here, a stabilizer works by increasing the bows moment of inertia which reduces abrupt movement. A longer stabilizer will show better results for the same weight. Also, your equation is literally the equation for torque: force x distance.
Pretty much same reason a tight rope walker uses stabilizer… but yes… I always like using the tight rope example as most people are familiar with it and can see the effects.
Remember, the formula is best used when you want to increase or decrease overall weight from the system. You should find where the bow shoots and holds best as fae as front and side bias go. Then if you want to keep that, but just add mass, use the formula. Any time the stabilizers aren’t parallel (both vertically and horizontally) the formula will be off. A big job of stabilizers is keeping the bow from moving when you release the arrow. In general, a front heavy system does this best.
Good video Chris. George is the man! I love the way he approaches archery from a quantitative and mathematical equation! Catch you at TAC this year man!
Nice explanation. I've never seen that stabilizer/weight formula. I found it interesting. I think my hunting setup is similar to yours, in that I have more weight on the rear stabilizer than the formula indicates. But like you said, it feels good. I'm running the Shrewd Vantage 12" out front with one ounce and the 9" out back with three ounces on my Mathews V3X29. I am really liking this setup right now.
I just got a Matthew’s v3x 29 My local dealer had a new one at a good price so I picked it up. I like it, but I have to say it is so easy to torque it. My old bow was 36 ata and a 6.75 brace height so I guess that’s why this one feels so easy to torque. I’m wondering if stabilizers will help with this ?
I always went for how the bow balances in your hand. If it pulls down, add more weight in the back. Or get a lighter front stabilizer. If it pulls up, take weight away from the back. Or get a heavier front stabilizer. Let me know if I've been incorrect in this deduction.
On my daughters target bow she has a 30" front bar with 6oz and a 15" back bar with 15oz. She tried the 1to3 or 1to4 balance on initial setup,but after trail and error she found out with this setup she has the least amount of pin float and her bubble stays dead center during her shot. Like you mention; in a stabilizer setup, a lot of it is in personal preference.
Excellent discussion Chris!!!! In a sense I've always been alittle confused with proper weighting of my bow. You cleared up alot for me. Thank you and be safe ....
You said that you were adding a link to the George Riles information on stabilizers? Great info you provided, thanks. Always looking for new information to help me shoot better.
The only thing I differ on opinion to you is what you said early in the video. "A 12" inch bar with more weight does the same as a 15" bar". Not true, it's a completely different feel as adding more weight to a 12" bar is adding mass weight to the entire rig. This can be detrimental to your shooting.
If you can put a 12" rod on there and add a little extra weight to do the same thing as a 15" rod, then couldn't you put a 15" rod on the front and add a lot of extra weight and do the same thing as a 30" rod while still keeping your bow manageably smaller and quite a bit more compact in comparison?
its much just thinking here , is it to absorb the shock ? then find out were the shock hits , it seems counter productive to have a back and forward stabelizer ,if youre just balace the front and back you just add weight , and that must not be the point ,
That formula is a basic center of balance formula. College and High School physics and hundreds of other jobs use its concept all the time in equations. I used to plan cargo to go on aircraft and used it to determine were the aircraft will balance and if it's within acceptable location to allow the plane to fly properly. He may of brought it to the archery world, but he isn't the origin of the math. Archery is just one big gigantic physics class mixed with kinaesthetic.
Why wouldn't the weight of the quiver, arrows, etc be accounted for in the weight of the back bar? Isn't the back bar balancing the weight of those attachments?
He says just after 6min mark he's talking about no quiver because he usually has it off when shooting. If you have the quiver on then that formula is gonna change.
Interesting video. I prefer shooting a short front rod (around 12") only. I don't shoot well with long rods (I have one and I have tried from time to time). The long rod moves the center of gravity far out from the bow, so the bow feels heavier. So I gets tired much sooner and thus shoots not good. In general I don't use back rods, sometimes, especially indoor I use a side rod that goes backwards, but I am not sure it makes much difference for me. :-) Not sure why I don't use the side rod for outdoor target - maybe I would if I had two bows, one for target archery and one for 3D (for 3D I use only the short front rod). Could try it though, since there is still a month or 3 weeks until the next 3D shoot - so I am practicing target archery from 30 m to 90 m. :-)
I bought a hour VTM 34 yesterday and have been trying to balance it. Still not happening. I don’t hav e front stabilizer because I have a garmin A1i pro on it and it is already front heavy. I have adjustable rear stabilizer, i have an 8 inch rod on it. Can the formula work using the metrics from my Garmin sight as well? That way I know what the to do with my rear stabilizer?
Awesome video Brother. All I have on my Diamond Triumph hunting setup is a 4 1/2 inch 4.5 ounce Limbsaver stabilizer. And the bow is still top heavy. What would you recommend doing to balance it a little more.
Shooting a new Mathews Phase 4. I installed my old Black Gold sight on, single pin with bubble level. Like my last Mathews my bubble always favors to the left. I must be canting the bow. Will a back stabilizer leaning out to the opposite side help in balancing. What set up would you recommend? Thanks!
According to This formula I should be running 2 ounces more on my back bar, guess I will buy a a couple more weights for the back and see if it changes anything in my shooting. Great info
You seem to popular and busy to have time or me, but on the off chance… I’m brand new and I’m curious how much of a difference in accuracy your favorite set up has for you personally versus say with no stabilizer or just a short one up front. Have you tested that out at a specific distance? I loved your explanation. Thanks for the tips
Great information especially for people like me that's new into bow hunting but I'd like to hear your thoughts on the tactacam stabilizer set up mainly cause I'm thinking about getting one mainly to film my hunt.
Not sure if you have a video on this or if the video you referenced has the answers but I have always wondered the correct/best way to set the amount the back stabilizer is out from the bow (and it’s height up/down as well as in/out). I have read that the tendency of the pin to want to settle lower rather than float in place indicates too much front weight - is finding your front weight first at the lightest possible the starting point for weight as well? Thanks for the video - the concept of not wanting stabilizers to put the bow in neutral makes a lot of sense
Good info! When measuring your Stabilizers for that formula where do you measure from and to? Do you include the QD in the length? Measure to the weights or just the actual tube?
Great video Chris, just watched the George Riles video. Excellent info. My question would be how to you know where to start with the length of your front stabilizer? It is a standard if you are a target shooter it's 30", if you are a hunter 12". Would love to hear your thoughts.
After watching the explanation of weight distribution, I can only wonder if the weight of the stabilizer it self should be considered in the calculation. I shoot a V bar in the back, so obviously the consideration of length in the formula when is two instead of one stabilizer in the back is important.
Do you feel adding more backbar weight or swinging the bar out is going to add a lot of torque on the grip when dealing with angled shots? I feel like even at Reos peak he struggled at Redding bc he had so much weight and stuck his blade back bar so far out?
Just curious. If I understand it correct it seems to me that no stabilizers would cause you to use these same muscles to stabilize the bow in the same fashion without the extra weight. Thoughts?
Hey Chris, I just bought my first bow last weekend; that being said, would you think it would be advantageous for someone who is super green to archery to shoot without stabilizers for a while and try to focus on form and other things like good follow through?
I started without one then i started trying some out and i now run a 10” up front and a 8” off the side.. After testing over a dozen i found this was best for me. Yeah the bows heavier but im shooting much better
The statement that winds me up is that you need 3x the weight on the back to the front (which tends in be a decent rough guide for target, but I keep seeing it with regard to bowhunter setups )
I used the mathematical method for weighting my stabilizer setup and it definitely got me dialed in pretty quick. It really calmed the bow down at the shot.
Picked up a Hoyt Ventum Pro 33. I loved it and chose it over the Mathews V3X... however one thing I noticed that I liked better on the Mathews was the bare bow felt more balanced holding it without drawing. The Hoyt seems very top heavy and naturally wants to fall forward. Is that something I should be concerned about? Especially after just spending all that money on a bow.
I have always thought that stabs are overpriced, but a necessary piece of equipment. If you shoot deer at 30 yards and in you probably don't need one. But they always help make the bow more stable for sure.
That’s some good info, I really liked your explanation behind stabs. Might need to reevaluate my set up. My bow is pretty well balanced but like you said I am fighting left to right tip on my level when taking a shot. I may do what you have and have the weight on the left side so I only need to fight tilting it to the right to get it level.
I've been playing with stabilizer placement on my PSE Brute force. I have read a past post on the science of front and back bars but have not seen anything on placement. I have a 10 inch front and 8 inch back bar. I have my back bar mounted at the same height as my front bar, but as im watching this video and in most other videos, the back bar is mounted lower on the riser. Is there a preferred placement of the back bar? Do you get more stability when it's mounted lower on the riser than at the same level as the front stabilizer?
I’ve been thinking about stabilizers. This is some good insight. I should really just focus on my form as my setup is right now. Looks like another 200 arrows tomorrow of trying to figure it out lol.
Love the videos Chris!! You do a great job of explaining these concepts. From an engineering background, this all makes a lot of sense. That equation is the basic sum of moments equation from physics. Basically the torque caused in the front has to equal the torque in the back to have a perfect balance. Same for left and right. From there it becomes feel or intentional bias. You shoulda been an engineer Chris lol
Completely agree. When all of those physics classes help you understand many different aspects of archery. I use more of what i learned in my hobbies than i do at work 🤣😂
Hunting rig, no stabilizer out front for me. My bow needs a short stabilizer out the back for balance. Having anything sticking out front on the bow to catch things as a still hunter is no bueno.
Stabilizers work the best when you know they're working. It's a trial and error type of thing. I've been working with stabilizers for an excess of 30 years, and I'm always finding something that works just a little bit better. A little bit more. More weight on the back stabilizer then on the front one, and a front mounted bracket, not mounted way down low for the back bar like some people do. I don't like it set up that way at all, like how the gentleman in the video has his backbar mounted. It does not work at all for me.
Hey Chris. I have a vxr 31.5 that I hunt with. I currently am running a quivalizer on it with a 5 arrow set up. I'm having way more pin float than what is acceptable. Mostly up and down movements. Do you think I front and rear set up like yours would help my situation? Thanks
My question is as you do the math, does the weight of your sight come into place or what’s your opinion….I’ve always wondered that….and I have a spot Hogg which is heavy that’s why I’m asking …thanks
I had wondered what these were for having only done traditional archery and i came to realise you are missing a key point on the purpose ( the main purpose that is) is to increase the energy required to add inertia to the bow, this is done through leverage of having a mass stiffly suspended some distance lower from the centre of mass but much like the reason trapeze perfomers carry two long bendy poles, to lower their centre of mass and increase the force required to change their centre of balanced, therefore giving them more time to naturally stabilise themselves. Now i understand what these are for and yes, they make sense for the reasons you also stated but these are more like secondary bonuses ( vibration reduction and stability - which you failed to explain the principles of) did you know therefore you could achieve probably greater levels of stabilisation by having an opposite inertia created at the point of arrow release, perhaps you could add some more pulleys to those things and have some weight coming back, it would reduce the power but according to what ive seen you are interested in a smooth release for accuracy.
The point of a stabilizer is to compensate for the geometry issues created by the bow. In a perfect archery system, the archers hands would be in the centre of the bow, both at the nock and at the grip, creating a symmetrical spring with which to launch the arrow. Unfortunately this means that the arrow is going to have to go through the archer's hand. To avoid this, the grip is moved below the arrow, but this creates a point of pressure below the centreline of the bow which causes the bow to kick upwards on release. The stabilizer is there to counteract this kick and ensure that the arrow leaves cleanly without an upward kick affecting the flight of the arrow. Having a stabilizer sticking out the front of the bow creates a front-back imbalance, so having a rear stabilizer helps to correct this imbalance while enhancing the resistance of the bow to the upward kick.
I run a 12 in the front and a 8 in the back for hunting. The way I figured out what I needed was to draw with my eyes closed and then look at my bubble and adjust, it really helped my form.
Thanks for the info Chris, would love to see you shoot your bow in a long range situation with and without your stabilizer to see the difference in grouping.
Yeah, Very good question
I’ve watched countless videos on stabilisation and no one has ever explained the advantage of adding bias to the bow in a way that makes perfect sense. I’ve tried it for myself now and it’s a game changer. Thanks Chris.
With my V3, the bow without any stabilizers, front and back, is already well balanced. It is possible to hunt without stabilizers period and the effect on the shot without stabilizers is negligible in hunting situations. As a result, I simply shoot with a single rubber stabilizer "stacker" ball and really, that is only to hold my wrist strap on. I have hunted with a simple small bolt in the stabilizer bar hole once again to simply hold my wrist strap on the bow. Lugging around in the woods all that extra weight is pointless IMO. And lengthy stabilizers whether out the front or back has more potential to hurt you in the tree, whether in the saddle or stand than to help when you are making the shot. Thanks for sharing the tech info Chris. Very interesting and I learned some stuff today.
This.
The point of stabilizers is not to balance the bow. The point is to increase the bows moment of inertia, essentially this makes it harder to move the bow. More force is required to move the bow 2 degrees with stabilizers than without. A good bow is balanced from the factory or close to it. However, they are compact, and their moment of inertia is very small. Stabilizers can help in wind or if you are shaky because the same force will move your aiming point less. Like Chris said. do what feels best, but that is how it works
I sat in Blair Sandberg’s kitchen back in the spring of 2007 and he gave me a physics lesson on rotational torque and why designed the original b-stinger the way he did. It’s awesome to see that he innovatived the stabilizer and archery world and we are doing everything differently.
I wish there was a way to try different stabilizers or releases or things like that before you buy them
any decent shop will let you try any stab before you buy
@@rayking3466or releases they have in stock. Of all of the shops around fairly close to me (10-15 w/in 2hr drive) I don't know if any that won't let you try things.
I'm only 15 and your videos are helping me with my bow hunting skills and what is necessary for my bow. I basically have the same hunting setup as up. Thanks Chris
I have started looking more into stabilizers as I just got my first ever deer at 32 with my uncle's 30 year old bow he gave me long ago, and decided to get a flagship bow (Bowtech SR350) as I'd finally done his bow justice and gotten a harvest with it. I'm not sure how I feel about it all yet. I was able to pull off a Robinhood at 25 yards within my first month of practicing with his bow again (PSE Edge 1000C, it had been years since I'd shot it and I started working on my form to get back into archery), and the only stabilizer I had on it was a Trophy Ridge 8" dampener more or less. It was definitely much less forgiving, but it forced me into proper form for results. I'm of the mind that all the gadgets arent necessarily necessary so long as you pound correct form into your head and dont rush or take shots you shouldnt. You sorta touched on that with stripping all the weight off a new bow or new form but still. It just feels a little to foreign to the art of archery. But If I go down that rabbit hole too long I'll end up at bare bow archery and no one wants that x'D
When I'm hunting my setup us short because I do a lot of stalking and very little stand hunting honestly. However I do have weights added to a short stubby back bar to balance out my quiver/arrow weights.
Thanks for the teachings. I’ve been learning for past four years on my own just from watching videos like yours and others. I don’t have access to a club unless I travel 3.5 hrs away and they’re not available most times on the weekends. Archery isn’t very popular in my neck of the woods. Maybe a few guys who only hunt one month out of the year. So, I appreciate the time you put into the vids.
I was today years old my bow likes to lean to the right and I have to tilt it the left to get my bow level and when I shoot and I follow through my bow it self dirfts left I never thought about why my bow goes that way but it makes sense now
You taught me something new thanks chris
As a hunter and not a competition shooter, I feel that these extended stabilizers would be EXTREMELY cumbersome in any hunting situation, but especially in a tree stand. The only stabilizer I use is a 4.5 inch LimbSaver... mostly for vibration absorption. Multiple long stabilizers will never compensate for lack of practice.
Longer stabilizers are more common with western style hunting vs eastern style hunting. More open and longer shots.
I agree to an extent, but surprisingly having a 15inch stabiliser makes it easier to carry around for me because I can put it over my back and carry it like cam hands does, makes it feel lighter because it’s comfortable to hike with
You can say that but at the same time you have a 27” + sized arrow sticking out of the bow until you draw back. So in a way everyone already has a long and cumbersome object to maneuver around trees and limbs before we draw
@@matthewgroseclose4973 You are assuming a lot. I don't walk around with a knocked arrow on my string. Our mountains in Arkansas are not just dirt and rock like out west. The mountains here are covered with forest. I walk in before sunrise with a climbing stand to a location with converging deer trails or big buck sign that I scouted months in advance. I then climb a tree that I have already prepared by trimming limbs that might hinder my movement, pull up my bow by rope, knock an arrow and hang the bow on a limb hanger and wait for muy grande or meat to walk by. If I am going to stalk, I never walk around with an arrow nocked up. You are correct, it would be terribly cumbersome... so, I never do it.
Throw that limbsaver toy right in the trash.. if your arrow is nocked hanging next to you in your tree stand why not have a longer stabilizer? You’ll hold steadier with a longer bar. And even more with a rear bar. Fact.
Thanks for this vid. I haven't put a ton of thought into my stabilizers other than that "they should balance out the bow...right??" The side bias reducing chances of error makes a lot of sense. I will have to try kicking my back stabilizer out a little and see what it does for my consistency.
Stabilizers increase the rotational inertia of the entire bow rig. You lever mass as far from rotational center as reasonable to resist the tendency for rotation. They also assist with vibration diffusion after the shot lets loose.
I didn't know about calculating how much was needed on the back bar, but I got the same thing by just feel. Pretty cool to confirm it.
Thanks for the video Chris, I agree that stabilizers could be something that is overly complicated, when it shouldn't be. I also agree that a stabilizer won't fix bad form lol. I'm sure that the two stabilizer setup is really helpful in the elk woods when those long shots present themselves, archery elk hunting is primarily what I do so I may want to give that a try in the future.🤙🏽🐝
Hi engineer here, a stabilizer works by increasing the bows moment of inertia which reduces abrupt movement. A longer stabilizer will show better results for the same weight. Also, your equation is literally the equation for torque: force x distance.
Pretty much same reason a tight rope walker uses stabilizer… but yes… I always like using the tight rope example as most people are familiar with it and can see the effects.
There’s a hundred people in a group, and only one engineer. How do you find the engineer? They’ll tell you.
@@PapaPekker I didn’t tell you anything yet… haha
Remember, the formula is best used when you want to increase or decrease overall weight from the system. You should find where the bow shoots and holds best as fae as front and side bias go. Then if you want to keep that, but just add mass, use the formula.
Any time the stabilizers aren’t parallel (both vertically and horizontally) the formula will be off.
A big job of stabilizers is keeping the bow from moving when you release the arrow. In general, a front heavy system does this best.
I agree. Stabilizers provide a better and smoother shot if you will. I run a 12 front and 7 on the back for my hunting set up.
Good video Chris. George is the man! I love the way he approaches archery from a quantitative and mathematical equation! Catch you at TAC this year man!
Nice explanation. I've never seen that stabilizer/weight formula. I found it interesting. I think my hunting setup is similar to yours, in that I have more weight on the rear stabilizer than the formula indicates. But like you said, it feels good. I'm running the Shrewd Vantage 12" out front with one ounce and the 9" out back with three ounces on my Mathews V3X29. I am really liking this setup right now.
I always think of a tight rope walker with their long balance poles and how helpful it is to them when I think of target now stabilizers.
In the 1980's, most of us used the Easton X7 stabilizers, we used them mostly as a kick stand for our bows.
Awesome video. I have been shooting without one and doing just fine out to 40 yards, no issues at all. I'm going to try one now just to do it.
I just got a Matthew’s v3x 29 My local dealer had a new one at a good price so I picked it up. I like it, but I have to say it is so easy to torque it. My old bow was 36 ata and a 6.75 brace height so I guess that’s why this one feels so easy to torque. I’m wondering if stabilizers will help with this ?
I always went for how the bow balances in your hand. If it pulls down, add more weight in the back. Or get a lighter front stabilizer. If it pulls up, take weight away from the back. Or get a heavier front stabilizer. Let me know if I've been incorrect in this deduction.
On my daughters target bow she has a 30" front bar with 6oz and a 15" back bar with 15oz. She tried the 1to3 or 1to4 balance on initial setup,but after trail and error she found out with this setup she has the least amount of pin float and her bubble stays dead center during her shot. Like you mention; in a stabilizer setup, a lot of it is in personal preference.
I'm more curious about just using gyros, I don't know if you could get them quiet enough for hunting but they could be really nice for targets
Excellent discussion Chris!!!! In a sense I've always been alittle confused with proper weighting of my bow. You cleared up alot for me.
Thank you and be safe ....
You said that you were adding a link to the George Riles information on stabilizers? Great info you provided, thanks. Always looking for new information to help me shoot better.
When you do the math for your bars should you include the length of the mounts? Like the quick detach off the front??
Thanks
The only thing I differ on opinion to you is what you said early in the video. "A 12" inch bar with more weight does the same as a 15" bar". Not true, it's a completely different feel as adding more weight to a 12" bar is adding mass weight to the entire rig. This can be detrimental to your shooting.
If you can put a 12" rod on there and add a little extra weight to do the same thing as a 15" rod, then couldn't you put a 15" rod on the front and add a lot of extra weight and do the same thing as a 30" rod while still keeping your bow manageably smaller and quite a bit more compact in comparison?
its much just thinking here , is it to absorb the shock ? then find out were the shock hits , it seems counter productive to have a back and forward stabelizer ,if youre just balace the front and back you just add weight , and that must not be the point ,
Thanks for the information! Do stabilizers work differently if you are shooting from a treestand?
Hey, Chris.Just wondering what do you like to run up front for point weight on your arrows?
That equation is leaving out some important inputs. ie. Where is the back bar attached?
very well explained, I know very little about the technical side of setups, but I learned some new things.
What would help the side to side motion broke my arm last year but haven’t got all the steadiness back yet
That formula is a basic center of balance formula. College and High School physics and hundreds of other jobs use its concept all the time in equations. I used to plan cargo to go on aircraft and used it to determine were the aircraft will balance and if it's within acceptable location to allow the plane to fly properly. He may of brought it to the archery world, but he isn't the origin of the math. Archery is just one big gigantic physics class mixed with kinaesthetic.
I see you use bowstring dampeners. Monkeys tail?
Can you write what model it is? Do you use any other limb samsaver and recommend them?
Why wouldn't the weight of the quiver, arrows, etc be accounted for in the weight of the back bar? Isn't the back bar balancing the weight of those attachments?
He says just after 6min mark he's talking about no quiver because he usually has it off when shooting. If you have the quiver on then that formula is gonna change.
Thanks I just bought some and haven’t figured them yet.
Interesting video. I prefer shooting a short front rod (around 12") only. I don't shoot well with long rods (I have one and I have tried from time to time). The long rod moves the center of gravity far out from the bow, so the bow feels heavier. So I gets tired much sooner and thus shoots not good. In general I don't use back rods, sometimes, especially indoor I use a side rod that goes backwards, but I am not sure it makes much difference for me. :-) Not sure why I don't use the side rod for outdoor target - maybe I would if I had two bows, one for target archery and one for 3D (for 3D I use only the short front rod). Could try it though, since there is still a month or 3 weeks until the next 3D shoot - so I am practicing target archery from 30 m to 90 m. :-)
I bought a hour VTM 34 yesterday and have been trying to balance it. Still not happening. I don’t hav e front stabilizer because I have a garmin A1i pro on it and it is already front heavy. I have adjustable rear stabilizer, i have an 8 inch rod on it. Can the formula work using the metrics from my Garmin sight as well? That way I know what the to do with my rear stabilizer?
Awesome video Brother. All I have on my Diamond Triumph hunting setup is a 4 1/2 inch 4.5 ounce Limbsaver stabilizer. And the bow is still top heavy. What would you recommend doing to balance it a little more.
Chris, on your Phase4 you run your back bar straight out while on your target you have it at a 10-15 degree down angle
Shooting a new Mathews Phase 4. I installed my old Black Gold sight on, single pin with bubble level. Like my last Mathews my bubble always favors to the left. I must be canting the bow. Will a back stabilizer leaning out to the opposite side help in balancing. What set up would you recommend? Thanks!
If I didn’t want to use a back bar would that handicap me in a hunting situation? Thanks 🙏
So the back bar shouldn’t make the bow balance left and right without having to apply bias with your grip?
According to This formula I should be running 2 ounces more on my back bar, guess I will buy a a couple more weights for the back and see if it changes anything in my shooting. Great info
You seem to popular and busy to have time or me, but on the off chance… I’m brand new and I’m curious how much of a difference in accuracy your favorite set up has for you personally versus say with no stabilizer or just a short one up front. Have you tested that out at a specific distance?
I loved your explanation. Thanks for the tips
Mantis x8 is a good tool to help with stabilizet setup. Especially when it comes to siderods to help eliminate tilt.
Great video. It is definitely a personal feel, like I like my bow more back heavy. I can run a 10:1 and feel really good.
Great video Chris, this helped me a ton. I’m new to bow hunting and your videos are very helpful to me.
I run a 12 and 7 on my hunting/3D bow and it’s awesome feel and balance on the bow i have it adjusted to where it shoots good with quiver on or off.
I run a 11 and a 9 on my hunting and 3D bow. And I shoot wt my quiver on.
Great information especially for people like me that's new into bow hunting but I'd like to hear your thoughts on the tactacam stabilizer set up mainly cause I'm thinking about getting one mainly to film my hunt.
What if u have no weights on the front bar? Jus the bar itself. How would u calculate that?
Were are the podcasts and very helpful
So I have a 30” front bar with 0 weights on it.
I have a 12” back bar.
So 30x0/12=0???
So if I had 30”x2ounces/12=5ounces?
Not sure if you have a video on this or if the video you referenced has the answers but I have always wondered the correct/best way to set the amount the back stabilizer is out from the bow (and it’s height up/down as well as in/out). I have read that the tendency of the pin to want to settle lower rather than float in place indicates too much front weight - is finding your front weight first at the lightest possible the starting point for weight as well? Thanks for the video - the concept of not wanting stabilizers to put the bow in neutral makes a lot of sense
Good info! When measuring your Stabilizers for that formula where do you measure from and to? Do you include the QD in the length? Measure to the weights or just the actual tube?
Great video Chris, just watched the George Riles video. Excellent info. My question would be how to you know where to start with the length of your front stabilizer? It is a standard if you are a target shooter it's 30", if you are a hunter 12". Would love to hear your thoughts.
After watching the explanation of weight distribution, I can only wonder if the weight of the stabilizer it self should be considered in the calculation. I shoot a V bar in the back, so obviously the consideration of length in the formula when is two instead of one stabilizer in the back is important.
Do you feel adding more backbar weight or swinging the bar out is going to add a lot of torque on the grip when dealing with angled shots? I feel like even at Reos peak he struggled at Redding bc he had so much weight and stuck his blade back bar so far out?
Is the goal bow balance or full draw balance? New to bow and learning a ton. Thanks the outstanding content.
That was a good One Chris. Appreciate all your help.
I would think that the slight angle down also fights against “cant”.
Just curious. If I understand it correct it seems to me that no stabilizers would cause you to use these same muscles to stabilize the bow in the same fashion without the extra weight. Thoughts?
Hey Chris, I just bought my first bow last weekend; that being said, would you think it would be advantageous for someone who is super green to archery to shoot without stabilizers for a while and try to focus on form and other things like good follow through?
I would , not everybody needs large stabilizer
I shot and hunted without one forever lol
I started without one then i started trying some out and i now run a 10” up front and a 8” off the side.. After testing over a dozen i found this was best for me. Yeah the bows heavier but im shooting much better
Chris why do you put your dampeners on the end of your weight stacks, surely that significantly reduces their effectiveness?
Okay, the back bar bias tip is pretty great and something that I just kinda stumbled on today.
The statement that winds me up is that you need 3x the weight on the back to the front (which tends in be a decent rough guide for target, but I keep seeing it with regard to bowhunter setups )
I used the mathematical method for weighting my stabilizer setup and it definitely got me dialed in pretty quick. It really calmed the bow down at the shot.
Picked up a Hoyt Ventum Pro 33. I loved it and chose it over the Mathews V3X... however one thing I noticed that I liked better on the Mathews was the bare bow felt more balanced holding it without drawing. The Hoyt seems very top heavy and naturally wants to fall forward. Is that something I should be concerned about? Especially after just spending all that money on a bow.
No you do not have to worry about it. I would run a back bar wt atleast 4 oz . That should balance out your bow.
Just wanna know is it okay to put a Chris bee stabilizer on my pse drive nxt if so gunna trade a truck load of wood for one
Does that grip fit a vxr? Good video, thanks for the info
I have always thought that stabs are overpriced, but a necessary piece of equipment. If you shoot deer at 30 yards and in you probably don't need one. But they always help make the bow more stable for sure.
That’s some good info, I really liked your explanation behind stabs. Might need to reevaluate my set up. My bow is pretty well balanced but like you said I am fighting left to right tip on my level when taking a shot. I may do what you have and have the weight on the left side so I only need to fight tilting it to the right to get it level.
Does this mean only having a forward stabilizer is pointless. Is back required if there’s a front?
is your low pro quiver hard to get off and snap on? mine i have to put a lot of force to close the clamp and open the clamp
Great breakdown. I learned some stuff for sure, especially about the back bar.
THIS is the best Stabz video ive ever seen ...... thanks Chris
I've been playing with stabilizer placement on my PSE Brute force. I have read a past post on the science of front and back bars but have not seen anything on placement. I have a 10 inch front and 8 inch back bar.
I have my back bar mounted at the same height as my front bar, but as im watching this video and in most other videos, the back bar is mounted lower on the riser. Is there a preferred placement of the back bar? Do you get more stability when it's mounted lower on the riser than at the same level as the front stabilizer?
I’ve been thinking about stabilizers.
This is some good insight. I should really just focus on my form as my setup is right now. Looks like another 200 arrows tomorrow of trying to figure it out lol.
Solid content Chris!!! keep it coming 👍
Love the videos Chris!! You do a great job of explaining these concepts. From an engineering background, this all makes a lot of sense. That equation is the basic sum of moments equation from physics. Basically the torque caused in the front has to equal the torque in the back to have a perfect balance. Same for left and right. From there it becomes feel or intentional bias. You shoulda been an engineer Chris lol
Gotta love that increased moment of inertia
Completely agree. When all of those physics classes help you understand many different aspects of archery. I use more of what i learned in my hobbies than i do at work 🤣😂
Hunting rig, no stabilizer out front for me. My bow needs a short stabilizer out the back for balance. Having anything sticking out front on the bow to catch things as a still hunter is no bueno.
Stabilizers work the best when you know they're working. It's a trial and error type of thing. I've been working with stabilizers for an excess of 30 years, and I'm always finding something that works just a little bit better. A little bit more. More weight on the back stabilizer then on the front one, and a front mounted bracket, not mounted way down low for the back bar like some people do. I don't like it set up that way at all, like how the gentleman in the video has his backbar mounted. It does not work at all for me.
Thanks. This video makes a lot of sense.
Hey Chris. I have a vxr 31.5 that I hunt with. I currently am running a quivalizer on it with a 5 arrow set up. I'm having way more pin float than what is acceptable. Mostly up and down movements. Do you think I front and rear set up like yours would help my situation? Thanks
What do you have that allows you to detach the low pro quiver so easily?
I know it’s personal preference but how much weight do you run on your 30” and 12” bars for your TRX?
Your videos are always entertaining and informative. Thank you.
Lol. The George Ryals-equation …
It is a simple physics leverage formula :)
Anyway, it makes things easy to understand so kudos!
My question is as you do the math, does the weight of your sight come into place or what’s your opinion….I’ve always wondered that….and I have a spot Hogg which is heavy that’s why I’m asking …thanks
I run a 30 in the front and a 8 in the back do you think j should have it longer in the back
Fire video brotha!
I had wondered what these were for having only done traditional archery and i came to realise you are missing a key point on the purpose ( the main purpose that is) is to increase the energy required to add inertia to the bow, this is done through leverage of having a mass stiffly suspended some distance lower from the centre of mass but much like the reason trapeze perfomers carry two long bendy poles, to lower their centre of mass and increase the force required to change their centre of balanced, therefore giving them more time to naturally stabilise themselves. Now i understand what these are for and yes, they make sense for the reasons you also stated but these are more like secondary bonuses ( vibration reduction and stability - which you failed to explain the principles of) did you know therefore you could achieve probably greater levels of stabilisation by having an opposite inertia created at the point of arrow release, perhaps you could add some more pulleys to those things and have some weight coming back, it would reduce the power but according to what ive seen you are interested in a smooth release for accuracy.