And...why would it change bass audibly? Reducing cabinet volume changes bass! ..not signifigant? My money says WAY more signifigant than a steel nut on a binding post.
I agree that the recorded signal *should* be the source of truth. The goal of speakers should be to accurately output the given signal, but how well does that hold up in practice? When music is mixed and mastered on monitors that have resonance, won't 99% of music sound unlike the intended recording? Thinner than what was intended in the studio. Since studios are targeting imperfect listener speakers (mixing on NS10's, etc), it seems like dampening speaker cabinets would only benefit recordings from audiophile labels like Chesky. No? (Sorry in advance. This sounds like something you've probably already addressed.)
Whether those mixing your music really heard what they had or not (usually they never hear what is really there) has nothing to do with accurately reproducing what was recorded.
I should try some of this no-rez in my Pioneer CS-53's when I have the extra money to do so. It should help them out a good deal. Of course my bedroom isn't the best space for doing perfectly placed speakers as my ceiling and walls are a triangular A-frame style. So there isn't a square vertical wall in this entire room. Would adding the no-rez to the top, bottom, sides and rear-baffle be a good idea or is that overkill?
I bought 3 sheets of No Rez from GR Research, and broke out the table saw! I installed the No Rez last night, in my KLH Model 5 speakers. It took about 3 hours, but I was able to cover almost the entire inside of the speakers, with just a few small scraps left over. The difference was pretty dramatic. 😮 These speakers had always seemed a little bright or stiff, even after breaking them in. After the No Rez treatment the sound was warmer, clearer and just easier on the ears. My spouse walked in and said “ the sound is just richer”. I can highly recommend this treatment, at least for the KLH Model 5! 😊
Whenever I have time to go back to this channel, it always inspires me how charitable Danny has become with his knowledge. Speaker design has been a large part of his life and he humbly gives his experience away to the public. Good Man.
Your insights are spot on with one exception. I really wish you would stop saying BBC-style designers *intend* to have resonant cabinets to add bloom. To a person--Alan Shaw, Derek Hughes, etc.--they don't They just don't. What's more, they're on record saying they don't. BBC thin-wall construction originated as a smart engineering *tradeoff*, not an esthetic choice. Understanding, in that day, they could not affordably or practically design using heroically non-resonant material, they chose to use damped thin walls to shift the resonance point lower and reduce its Q to make it less jarring. That is literally it. No one at the BBC wanted to add bloom to the lower mids. They wanted accurate monitoring. The fact that thin-wall damped construction was imperfect at doing it is merely a reflection of said imperfection, not any designer's intention. It was just the best they could do with contemporary materials, budgets and space and weight considerations. Best I can tell from reading the history, and then reading audio magazine accounts later on, the only audiophile speaker maker boasting about using cabinet resonances to "tune" the sound was Franco Serblin at Sonus Faber. And his advocacy of it was juvenile. As you know, BBC style speakers, for the most part--Harbeths especially, measure flat. They might use horrible, cheesy crossovers to get there, but flatness and low energy story is central to their design. And no, I don't own BBC style speakers--nor especially like them. But I do understand the constraints they were designed under and the artful way their designers adapted to those constraints.
@@RennieAsh True. And either poor engineering or ill--advised market-speak. The only constant is that you cannot eliminate resonances. You can only attenuate the amplitude, convert some of it to heat, and/or move it somewhere less damaging on the spectrum. But making a cabinet sing like a violin doesn't make it a violin. Or make recorded violins sound better. My only beef with Danny is his frequent claim that British designers were intending to do that. They weren't. They were just trying best, as engineers, to limit the damaging effects of resonance. Just as Danny is.
I added a horizontal brace and no rez to KEF Q100's and loving the result. I don't have the tools to measure, but the frequency range has shifted to the mid and lower frequencies, absolutely no trace of shrillness anymore. The fundamental sound characteristics of the Q100 have been transformed, I can listen to them for hours with no fatigue. Very important to put some of the polyfill back in the cabinets to get the bass correct. Terrific product 👍
I dont know how many people actually read the comments But I was listening to My music today and pretty loud and its been 5-6 months now and I am still impressed and wowed by the speakers I BOUGHT FROM YOU!
Please do more tech talk like videos like this!! Love your explanation videos. Going thru different impedence, waterfall graphs how to read them where the low/mid/tweeter critical area is for different elements of music ect. Why drivers polarity are switched with crossovers ect
ok .. maybe NoRez is a wonderful product, my consideration is this ... Loudspeaker Producers in factory have million dollar equipment to design speakers, if you can get a groundbreaking product for 50 dollars pannel they can get it for almost 50% less .. with this great benefit they can easily spend less money in cheaper speakers cheaper MDF wood , cheaper crossover ecc and will still make a good sounding mass product. or High End Loudspeaker producers can elevate a great product even way higher making a speaker that sounds very much better then opponents.. why with all this improvement we don't see this stuff in any HiEnd Speakers and even in low budget speakers?? or are alla this speaker companies with al there investment in research to stupid to make exactly the same research you did ?
I'll admit that the No-Rez is more convenient to use, but I had to come up with my own DIY equivalent using self adhesive industrial floor tiles and viscoelastic open cell foam on top of the tiles.
I tried No-rez on a pair of Klipsch Forte IIs that I had at my office. Definitely improved the sound IMO. I think it might make more sense value wise on a newer/better pair of speakers, and perhaps smaller speakers given the cost per sq/ft. It was a fun experiment for me.
This is not a correct description of the BBC idea of thin walled cabinets with damping, if that is what is being discussed at the beginning. The idea of that was to move the resonances (which are indeed inevitable) into a frequency range where the ear was less sensitive. The claim was that it was then possible to make the resonances below the threshold of audibility, whereas "rigid" cabinets would make the resonances occur at higher frequencies where the ear is so sensitive that it was all but impossible to make the resonances inaudible. Whether one thinks this works is another question. But the intention was certainly not to add bloom to the sound. Of course some people deviated from the BBC idea and did try to warm up their speakers by allowing audible resonances.
Great video, Danny, thanks. A while back when you were having issues with No Rez stock I went the DIY route based on some directions you actually gave on Audio Circle some time back. I used 1/8th inch commercial floor tiles, contact cement and 1" foam. Installed this in my Elac UniFi UB52's and the difference it made was fantastic! The cabinet now is absolutely rock solid and it added two pounds to the weight of the speaker. Bigger soundstage, cleaner top to bottom, clarity and a more effortless presentation. Now all that said, it definitely took more time than what it would take to install No Rez and Danny claims it's even better than the DIY method so if you can afford it and you want to save time go No Rez but the DIY option is there. Thanks!
@@phillipmorris9847 Not sure if I can leave links in a comment but you can find what’s called VCT floor tile about everywhere for like 99 cents a square foot or less. Typically the brand is Armstrong. It’s 1/8” thick, NON-adhesive backing. Easy to score and snap. This tile is that typical commercial tile you see in schools, stores etc. I used contact adhesive to apply the tiles to the enclosure walls. The foam is just 1” foam from Hobby Lobby or Joann Fabrics typically used in cushions or what not. I used 3M or the like heavy duty spray adhesive to apply the foam to the tiles once the tile is in the cabinet.
@@hachuelo69 Hi Jorge. Anywhere you can really. It’s tough to do the wall/baffle that the drivers are on but any other open wall, sides, top, bottom, are areas you want to apply the tile and foam or No Rez.
I’ve used ceramic coatings to great effect inside the speaker and it worked great, but this product has that foam layer that just hits the mark. This isn’t just a good product, it is a great product. Low impact financially for the benefit it gives. Try it if you haven’t and be stunned by what it does. This is one of the best low buck products that helps you enjoy your music with great effect. It shapes well and confirms easily to the inside of your speakers. To try it is to be convinced! Stay safe my mates!😊👍🏻😁
My secret weapon is Recycled denim... Its hypoallergenic, You can buy it in thicker or thinner sheets, It has the same absorbent qualities, It's Cheaper!, And it is made from post consumer recycled products. (Your Pants)
You right about black hole, back in the 90’s I used roofing tar with sand , then 1/4 chip board that was run though a table saw with 1/8 slices in a asymmetrical pattern and then used, Astroturf under padding that I found in an abandoned worksite. Mass loaded and heavy as shit. Most of the cabinets I built back then were trapezoids with three-quarter inch rounded edges on the baffles 1 “ MDF Variable density, also asymmetrical bracing in the cabinets to reduce sympathetic resonance modes. Focal drivers scan spec . The other thing that I did was have outboard crossover right by my amplifiers and run separate cables to all drivers. I broke my brains crossover design, luckily I had some talented friends with talents but I did not possess as I found out. High quality capacitors and resistors with foil coils.
Hello and welcome on here today and also in the 90's era. Roofing tar thick and sand with some lead buckshot. But the tar so thick I mounted different sizes of half rounds to bounce the sound around I side the box. Yell into the empty box, dead no echo, just a good amount of DB output lose if A-B to untreated box
Constrained layer, bronze, aluminium and MDF of various thickness with lead sheet lining enclosing a frame with apertures and tensioned with M16 steel threaded rods. Only then marine engine room damping panels and glass fibre fill wih sealed chambers for low midrange drivers, woofers and active, push-pull subs. Dead as a grave stone.
Hi I was reading your comments with interest and the use of sand I own a pair of Jamo Concert Elevens.This company back in it's heyday dabbled in the use of sand impregnated with resin in it's front speaker baffles ... They are beautiful sounding well constructed cabinets and use Seas driver's.
@@fredfungalspore I think we could agree that cabinet construction, despite its paramount importance, is the negected piece of the puzzle in most commercial offerings. Fancy drivers in nicely finished hollow, resonant boxes sell at a considerable mark-up. Heavily braced, inert cabinets are quite labour consuming and expensive not only to produce, but to ship as well. More so, if you perceive the bass reflex port as a detriment, rather than enhancement and have to make up for it with real estate - an additional LF driver and its dedicated amplifier for best results. The idea of attenuating as thoroughly as possible the sound emanating from the rear of the diaphragms and into the cabinet is not without its opponents, however I found it to work for me. Sounds weird at first and is more akin to listening to headphones, but that freedom from cabinet colouration is very revealing. One should not be able to hear or feel anything with the ear against the speaker cabinet/hand on the enclosure even when the drivers are bouncing around, in my opinion.
You keep on saying 70 mil (as in millimeters) but I think you mean 70 thou, which is nearly 2mm. 70mm is nearly 3" and that material you have there is no where near that.
Beware that your speakers bass response is tuned (or should be anyway) to the dampening/absorptive material they came with ! If you change the characteristics of this material, the bass response tuning will certainly change. Last year, I installed No Rez into a pair of monitor audio Silver 10 towers. The No Rez cabinet dampening had a very small effect at least to the old "knuckle test". It did however suck the bass out right of the speakers and as Danny said also lowered the tuning frequency about 2hz (hertz not hurt). Does not sound like much but in my room was a very noticeable difference. I even had to remove a couple bass traps and still did not have the same weight as before. If the above is what you want then great, otherwise precede with caution ! Took the stuff out last week and replaced with the original foam pieces. Bass in not quite as tight (or too tight as it was) but now has more weight and punch = more listenable !
Your added bass (without the No Rez) isn't bass, it is noise produced from cabinet resonances. It is a coloration that is not part of the music, but if you like that added bloom, there is nothing wrong with that.
@@dannyrichie9743 Sorry, the different material does change the bass tuning for the cabinet Vs what the mfg. originally had ! I'm not hearing upper bass/lower mid range bloom. This is bass in the 40 to 75 Hz region and most cabinets resonate at much higher frequencies. I don't have the Thiel Small speaker parameters to accurately model the bass tuning but with any model I have ever used the level of dampening material has a huge impact on the mid bass going down to the box or port tuning frequency. In this case the tuning went from 38Hz to 36Hz which will pull the mid bass down slightly. You know this to be true but I'm not knocking the stuff just saying it is NOT a good thing for all speakers ! Mileage may vary with other speakers etc.
@@toddh95008 That is only 2Hz difference. Whether or not you add the original stuffing back in or even vary some of the stuffing a little one way or another and you'll get that much change or greater. Either way, it won't have any effect on the mid-bass output.
In your research of foam, did you ever come across an equivalent for the 2 piece foam on the Electro Voice Super Dome tweeter? Thanks and a great video.
Have a couple German made speakers, and enjoy them, but can be shrill once in a while. Lubricated the tweeters which helped and got some no Rez and am VERY happy with the effect from the foam.Thank you so much for this great improvement in our stereo listening!!!!!!!
@@dannyrichie9743 Hello folks: If one is willing to have new boxes made up to include a few more box upgrade. To bring them up another level. For those who live downunder.
I guess those panels are essentially acting like high frequency passive radiators, however, unlike an actual PR, the "travel" is severely limited, meaning that it's dynamic range hasn't got a chance of matching the dynamics of the drivers. They also cannot work linearly across its pass band. They will literally bottom out, and reach maximum volume, while the speakers continue to get louder, meaning the sound signature at low volume will be significantly different to high volumes. (this will be due to this panel rather than the munson curve). It's also kinda only playing one frequency well, being a PR. It's not wide band, and if the panel that is vibrating is larger than the wavelengths it's creating, then the sound will beam, which will add to the uneven room distribution of that frequency. All that isn't to say it can't sound good, but it is definitely too say that it would be extremely, extremely challenging and would be extremely room dependent.
If a cabinet resonance is adding to the music from the drivers, the two problems associated with it being used to add color to the sound of the speaker is first, that coloration will occur in a very narrow frequency range, and second, it will not be added in a linear fashion with volume, in other words, the higher the volume output of the speaker, the greater amount of resonance will be added.
I know you are trying to sell these panels, and I can appreciate the simplicity of the product, but I found an alternative. I have been adding carpet padding to the inside walls of the speakers I have been building for many years now, which is available in small rolls at the big box home builders stores. In the past I used carpenter's cement (like powergrab, coming in a tube and injected with a mechanical gun mechanism), and in my latest build, I switched out the carpenter's cement for a gallon of water based synthetic roofers cement that I was able to apply across the entire inside panel, and then applied the pre-cut carpet padding pieces, and this method achieves the same as what you have there. Seeing this video on your no-res that you have talked alot about is encouraging to me in that I know I am on the right track, thanks for the video.
I appreciate your DIY enthusiasm, but what you are doing is not at all what is achieved with No Rez. Just the damping layer of each sheet of No Rez weighs four pounds. To damp out resonances you need a heavy mass that will dissipate rather than transmit energy.
@@MadLadsAnonymous That material is designed for metal structures, but if you had some laying around and wanted to use it, it would still have some positive affect.
Good morning,I probably will get a lot of hateful comments back from all your fans, but i really don't care what they say. I have been watching you for awhile, and by the way I wonder if you will keep THIS comment on here since you only have all positive comments on here. So I am following your video reviews and comments about many speakers here and it seems to me that all speakers at least 90 percent are never good to/for you. I am just trying to buy a pair of speakers who are around 1000 dollars and would sound like the old vintage sound from the 70 and 80 ties time, but I do not have the money to upgrade any speaker by you nor the desire. So if you Danny are so neutral to your watchers and could give me and maybe many other watchers out here any recommendations then that would be very helpful, but again it seems to me that not ONE speaker to you is just good enough unless you fixed it or sell an upgrade, (good way of doing business ) still wonder if you would leave my comment on here. For your reference I am just an 62 year young guy who loves to hear to music, but only have the means to buy around 1000 dollar a pair speakers and I have an Marantz NR 1200 receiver that I love. Any advise would be helpful, I know you are busy but would appreciate an response from you. Sincerely Frank Grootenboer. P.S. as my reference about the 70 /80 era is >>> I am looking for a warm neutral sound like the Wharfedale Linton sounds, but have only 1000 to spare, hope you understand.
The best way to find what you are looking for is to look in the used market for that type of speaker. Unfortunately most of the speakers of that era are going to have parts that are fairly poor quality or have aged to the point of needing replacement because of that alone. It is kind of like asking me to recommend a car from the 70's to be your new daily driver and you have a budget of $1,000. Every high mileage car from the 70's is going to be wore out and need some work.The technology back then is not what it is today. If a car made it to 100,000 miles the engine needed a complete overhaul. Today cars get their first spark plug change at 100,000 miles. Speakers are no different.
hello frank! Maybe finding a pair that you like the looks and sound of and then using something like a minidsp to tune a bit warm sounding? roll off the top end and a little boost in the mid-bass?
@@dannyrichie9743 thank you for your swift reply, I kinda don't know what to do with it, I guess I need to safe up some more $$$ and go what I am reading about and come over very good according to many reviewers. The Wharfedale Linton speakers, in combination with my NR 1200, so Danny do you think that works well just out of the box, because I really do not have the know how to modify them and you mentioned in your review that the crossover is a bit poor.Thanks again for your answer back, looking forward to hear from you again. Sincerely , Frank Grootenboer.
It would be nice to see measurements as you explain no rez. Showing the difference in a speaker with and without no rez. It would be cool if you could do the same thing with a competitors product (like the parts express, I think it's called sonic barrier).
A better test would be compare a tower speaker that needs bracing like a Klipsch RP-8000F and add for example four internal braces and compare that to another RP-8000F treated with No Rez.
I just had an idea .......it might sound stupid ......has anybody ever tried a double wall speaker and the cavity filled with sand?????for reducing the resonances of the box.......do u think that it will work .......???
Q-Acoustics does something similar with their speaker cabinets. I believe it's 3 separate layers with the middle layer being some sort of gel to minimize vibrations/resonance. Cool idea... they call it Gelcore technology...
Someone did! and it DOES! My 1992 DAHLQUIST Prelude (boxed) Series. 3/4 inch side walls of the CA2 monitor are purposely left hollow for filling with sand , or my case, lead shot. 83lbs in total weight per speaker later= they AIN'T moving! Still , I went ahead and did the "almost as good" DIY option with 12mm commercial floor tiles lined with self adhesive Noico foam after Danny upgraded their crossovers. Half the fun is trying.
I would argue one technical point. You suggest that only the damper layer "takes up air space". Because of it physically reduces the inner dimensions by 1/8" where applied. But that the cellular foam is open pour that allows the air to fill the space. Yes to fill the space not taken up by the physical structure that is/ that makes up the cells. The materials that make up the foam cells do so by occupying space while allowing open space for the air flow. But it does occupy physical space and thus reduce interior air volume. I would agree that this air space reduction has less effect than increasing the air mass density as caused by the cells.
Hello folks: good question as I did forgotten a lot of information about this. So I'll wing it. The box panels will have less pressure because that energy is going be use to move the PR.? Edit Like Polk speakers like to use PR. I don't understand why not just add another woofer. Well no port noise and getting the box sealed for the PR as planned.
It's essentially a minimal amount of open celled absorption... so the volumetric aspects would change relative to overall box size...i.e., small compact box may exhibit impact, whereas large box may not. Regarding box pressure and panel behavior... good question. Perhaps the peak pressure/peak deflection wouldn't change much, however that behavior is damped over time. Pure speculation... I'd have to perform the work and then determine.
I believe in the combination of the 2 materials but it's cheaper to buy a sound dampening sheet (1 to 2mm) and put good quality acoustic foam (25mm) on top..this will have 99% the same effect 👍 I live in Europe so shipment would be to expensive..
It is not the same and you will spend more in time and labor trying to get close. If you want to give it a shot though give me a call and I'll walk you through the best way to get there from what is commercially available.
I am thinking of ordering some of this material. I own a set of klipsch RF-83's towers, matching center and surrounds. Movies are played through all the speakers. Music I only use the two towers. I recently started watching the channel and decided to see what the towers look like inside. Well to my shock there was hardly any sound deadening material inside the three quarter inch MDF enclosures, two braces, and some half inch of that memory foam at the top the front sides nothing at the bottom or the bottom front below the last bottom base driver, the back left side had memory foam only half way down from the top, the bottom half towards the back they had the cables from the crossover panel which sat at the bottom in the back of the case, the cables/harness was attached with double sided tape, which I had to replace, on the ride side of the tower the entire side four feet in hight had no sound deadening material whatsoever. This was the case for both of the towers. I don't know why they did this. So what I did, I had some leftover three quarter inch memory foam from a project I did many years ago, so I used it to fill up the sides which had no sound deadening material, bottom, front bottom below to bottom base driver, the left bottom half side in the back and the entire four foot side in the right side of the speaker. Once finished I fired then old puppies up, and low and behold, the sound deadening material did wonders, it smoothed out the top end, the midrange was more tight and smooth, hardly any roll-off, and the base tightened up and turned into a totally different animal. What I noticed was that it lost a bit of it's sensitivity, which was in a way a good thing. The towers sound more pleasing to listen to, the harshness when turning up he volume just vanished. Heck and that's with the original crossover panel. The system is powered by an Integra DTC-9.8 pre-amp and an Outlaw seven channel 200W Per Channel amplifier. So no lack of power running into them. My question regarding this sound deadening material and it's installation, if you are building new speakers, I see no issue as you without install it before closing off the box. But with a speaker like mine, heck the memory foam was a pain to work through the front ports. I would have to cut a bunch of small pieces to fit them through the front ports. My question is, how much better if this stuff compared to regular memory foam.
I built a pair of the CSS Criton 2TDX Tower speakers recently from 3/4" Red Oak but I lined the top, back, and sides with 1/8" 3M self adhesive sound deadening panels with 1" Parts Express sound damping foam over it. I didn't discover NoRez until after I had built them. They sound very good to me but I'm biased.. 🙂 This is only my second speaker build and my first high end expensive speaker build. I don't know how much of a difference NoRez would have made over what I used but I figure they are better than having no cabinet resonance/sound damping at all. I'm not an audiophile and have little experience with high end equipment or building it but the 2TDX's sound very good to me paired with the Elekit TU-8600S 300B Tube amp I built to go with these speakers. I also bought the superior crossovers for the Critons as well. The whole system is a huge improvement over what I had before. Thanks for the video!
Everything has a point resonance. Even bridges and that can be a problem. An inner and outer cabinet construction of particle board. With damping between and inner cabinet full ,lots of holes.
My small bookshelf home theater speakers especially the center had resonance. I added No Rez and now no more resonance. Better in all aspects. I had an echo sound before now it sounds tight without coloration. I took video before and after and No Rez is the winner.
I find using 1" Baltic Birch on 5 panels, and two layers of 1" Baltic Birch on the fron precludes the need. BUT, I would definitely use it on any commercially available speakers, including any flatpack box.
I have a set of big box 15" speakers that sound pretty good, but when you turn them up you defiantly get a little color. I am wondering if this would clean that up. I built a set of garage speakers and lined them with carpet pad (the thick foam stuff). Seams to do a good job, but there was very little science involved in that build and they are much smaller speakers. I also braced them very well. The 15"s are braced but if you give them a knock you can tell it could be better. A nice thing is with a big woofer hole like these, it is easy to add additional bracing if needed, but I think a little more damping will do the trick.
If you have a minimally resonating loudspeaker cabinet then the drivers and crossovers must be top notch, otherwise the measurements will tell all and all you will hear is the shortcomings of those components.
I bought some stuff years ago from a place that sells speaker parts and kits. I'm not sure what it was, but it smelled like it was made from petroleum. It had a heavy, rubbery tar-like texture with an adhesive backing. The plastic covering the adhesive was blue. Have you heard of anything like this?
The tar like stuff is likely a Butyl based dampener. Usually meant for use with metal panels on cars. But I'm not aware of that specific product. It works well on plastic horns to reduce any resonances there also. I've seen people use it on the backside of the horns for some Klipsch heritage models, like the larger Forte and Cornwall models. It's a little more flexible making it ideal for difficult shapes.
In general, caution is advised with application of such materials, as volatiles may lead to premature failure of adhesives holding the driver former, diaphragm and suspension together.
I remember this, in fact I was going to ask danny about it. There is a youtube of them putting it on a square piece of aluminium, it deadens the vibration really well.
So here is a question fer ya.....Why do some custom speaker builders leave portions of the interiors of speakers untreated. I.e. sound dampening on one side of a box but not on the other? What was their reasoning and what's your position on that practice and why.
I just wished I lived somewhere in your area Danny...you would have a dedicated customer.You said before that you could ship to me in South Africa,I was wanting a DIY speaker set.I am not sure how the insurance on the postage would work as a lot of stuff never makes it to customers in this country.For someone who is on pension this is a bit of a scary undertaking financially speaking.So tired of looking for a good product and being sold rubbish.Take care Danny.
Thanks, Danny explanation of the product and the justification on the cost aspects. I have confidence yr doing all you can to give us all a gr8 deal, cheers
You can. It won't control cabinet resonances since it's not stiff or dense enough, but it will help with standing waves. It's a much better product than polyfill which tends to be too loose, with fiberglass being a good middle ground.
However, it is hazardous to breathe rockwool fibers, so IF your box is ported you will be pumping said rockwool fibers into your room with every single bass note and therefore right into you & your family's lungs... even your pets lungs as well.
Just curious, I've seen your video on the Klipsch Forte III's and how they were improved. Have you done the Forte IV's yet? And what was the cost of the upgrades for them? Thanks so much. Enjoy your videos here in Hong Kong.
Let’s take for example a Harbeth speaker. It has “tin” cabinet walls. And it resonates for sure. So I think this would change the sound of the speakers a lot. It’s not the same speaker with this. Would it be better? I’m not so sure. Because lot of people likes Harbeth’s the way it is. What do you think?
While your spoken description of the problem and the resolution with NoRez is good, an audio measurement of panel resonance before and after would have given the non-believers a visual proof of product.
The Sonic Barrier I used yesrs ago was effective for a TL, but the adhesive side was weak.. I had to use some adhesive spray for it to stay put and not fall off..
The suspended layer will muddy the midrange. It also has no damping layer. That product does nothing for resonance control and makes the speaker sound congested.
Has anyone tried using it in speakers that're designed to have very little damping? I'm talking about the ones that use stands and spikes to take care of cabinet vibrations simply by sending the vibrations down to the floor.
You cannot send all noise to the floor... The excited walls vibrate and make a sound like anything that vibrates at the inherent material resonance frequency
A friend had B&W 801 matrix speakers that had coughed a cigarette filter size and shape foam material out of the port. We did remove the woofer to see what way the damper material was used, we were amazed at what was inside the cabinet.
Well. I recently got some of the blackhole material along with some weighted mat for a speaker build. Did you test the blackhole material in different layouts inside the cabinet? Is it always going to create that loading effect or is there a strategic way to use it to avoid this?
Here’s a great video with video of how a speaker driver works and an explanation with images and what each part is called th-cam.com/video/RxdFP31QYAg/w-d-xo.html
No. The gap is up fairly high. Cabinet resonances that add body and weight to vocals or acoustic instruments are considerably lower. A cabinet resonance in the region where crossover gaps typically reside would not be suitable for a speaker enclosure . I’m thinking a ringing metal box would be what you’re describing.
Hey Danny, great explanation of the product and the purpose of use! But I was wondering if you have to cover the panels at 100% or if the No Rez still works at 80 or 90% coverage? TNX -RUSTY- at Audio Spectrum
@@dannyrichie9743 Hey Danny, what coverage % would you advise for a Passive Radiator speaker design? Would you need to keep the area around the passive free of No-Rez to not absorb the reflections off the cabinet walls and allow them to properly drive the passive?
I’m curious, in all your videos that you modify and ‘fix’ the various speakers.. I don’t recall you EVER adjusting the tuning frequency of the box? Why is that? Surely throwing a block in to reduce volume, or, shortening/lengthening the port.. would be more cost effective than the expensive components in notch filtering. Don’t misunderstand, I love the approach to the filters fixing so much! It’s great, I’m just genuinely asking, as it confuses me! Cheers 😎
This is a great hifi innovation! Do I recall correctly from some of your other videos that No-Res is best applied on the side walls of the cabinet only, and not the rear or (cut-out) front walls?
Just when I think I understand the basics You throw another curve ball at me with the science of speaker cabinet resonance. Could you please do a segment on your thoughts on Open Baffle speaker's and design..... Always an honest and interesting segment.... thanks for posting from Down Under .. 👇.
I bet you hate Audio Note & BBC design speakers, being they're designed to resonate. Audio Note makes speakers designed to be put into room corners as close as possible to walls.
@@dannyrichie9743 I think DeVore makes a clone of the Audio Note speakers also. Well actually the Audio Note are a clone too. I forget the original designers name at the moment. I remember the story was he used cheap off the shelf drivers & put them in a resonant box & pissed off the hifi establishment.
It would be cool if you could show how a speaker measures before and after no rez.
Without any measurements, it is same as infomercial.
Nice response.. Somehow I don't think we will get it though🤣🤣
(I posted before I read your post)
Or ..at a minimum give figure on max cab output relative to actual driver.
If its 50 db down.....is it worth doing anything?
And...why would it change bass audibly?
Reducing cabinet volume changes bass! ..not signifigant? My money says WAY more signifigant than a steel nut on a binding post.
i have never seen a AB test on Gr R-
accelerometers also have a resonant frequency / resonance. The one I was experimenting with stated 5Khz as the resonant frequency.
For me, a speakers #1 function is too sound good. Measurements are secondary.
I agree that the recorded signal *should* be the source of truth. The goal of speakers should be to accurately output the given signal, but how well does that hold up in practice? When music is mixed and mastered on monitors that have resonance, won't 99% of music sound unlike the intended recording? Thinner than what was intended in the studio. Since studios are targeting imperfect listener speakers (mixing on NS10's, etc), it seems like dampening speaker cabinets would only benefit recordings from audiophile labels like Chesky. No?
(Sorry in advance. This sounds like something you've probably already addressed.)
Whether those mixing your music really heard what they had or not (usually they never hear what is really there) has nothing to do with accurately reproducing what was recorded.
I should try some of this no-rez in my Pioneer CS-53's when I have the extra money to do so. It should help them out a good deal. Of course my bedroom isn't the best space for doing perfectly placed speakers as my ceiling and walls are a triangular A-frame style. So there isn't a square vertical wall in this entire room. Would adding the no-rez to the top, bottom, sides and rear-baffle be a good idea or is that overkill?
I bought 3 sheets of No Rez from GR Research, and broke out the table saw! I installed the No Rez last night, in my KLH Model 5 speakers. It took about 3 hours, but I was able to cover almost the entire inside of the speakers, with just a few small scraps left over. The difference was pretty dramatic. 😮
These speakers had always seemed a little bright or stiff, even after breaking them in. After the No Rez treatment the sound was warmer, clearer and just easier on the ears. My spouse walked in and said “ the sound is just richer”. I can highly recommend this treatment, at least for the KLH Model 5! 😊
Whenever I have time to go back to this channel, it always inspires me how charitable Danny has become with his knowledge. Speaker design has been a large part of his life and he humbly gives his experience away to the public. Good Man.
😂😂😂😂😂 sure
Your insights are spot on with one exception. I really wish you would stop saying BBC-style designers *intend* to have resonant cabinets to add bloom. To a person--Alan Shaw, Derek Hughes, etc.--they don't They just don't. What's more, they're on record saying they don't. BBC thin-wall construction originated as a smart engineering *tradeoff*, not an esthetic choice. Understanding, in that day, they could not affordably or practically design using heroically non-resonant material, they chose to use damped thin walls to shift the resonance point lower and reduce its Q to make it less jarring.
That is literally it. No one at the BBC wanted to add bloom to the lower mids. They wanted accurate monitoring. The fact that thin-wall damped construction was imperfect at doing it is merely a reflection of said imperfection, not any designer's intention. It was just the best they could do with contemporary materials, budgets and space and weight considerations.
Best I can tell from reading the history, and then reading audio magazine accounts later on, the only audiophile speaker maker boasting about using cabinet resonances to "tune" the sound was Franco Serblin at Sonus Faber. And his advocacy of it was juvenile.
As you know, BBC style speakers, for the most part--Harbeths especially, measure flat. They might use horrible, cheesy crossovers to get there, but flatness and low energy story is central to their design.
And no, I don't own BBC style speakers--nor especially like them. But I do understand the constraints they were designed under and the artful way their designers adapted to those constraints.
There was a Sony speaker that was supposedly tuned to musical frequencies
@@RennieAsh True. And either poor engineering or ill--advised market-speak. The only constant is that you cannot eliminate resonances. You can only attenuate the amplitude, convert some of it to heat, and/or move it somewhere less damaging on the spectrum. But making a cabinet sing like a violin doesn't make it a violin. Or make recorded violins sound better. My only beef with Danny is his frequent claim that British designers were intending to do that. They weren't. They were just trying best, as engineers, to limit the damaging effects of resonance. Just as Danny is.
I hear you guys and don't disagree with the history of it. However, some are still doing it.
@@dannyrichie9743 We are sure in violent agreement on that.
I remember seeing an interview with the Harbeth guy, who was quite open about the fact that they were not trying to suppress cabinet resonance.
I added a horizontal brace and no rez to KEF Q100's and loving the result. I don't have the tools to measure, but the frequency range has shifted to the mid and lower frequencies, absolutely no trace of shrillness anymore. The fundamental sound characteristics of the Q100 have been transformed, I can listen to them for hours with no fatigue. Very important to put some of the polyfill back in the cabinets to get the bass correct. Terrific product 👍
I dont know how many people actually read the comments But I was listening to My music today and pretty loud and its been 5-6 months now and I am still impressed and wowed by the speakers I BOUGHT FROM YOU!
Please do more tech talk like videos like this!! Love your explanation videos. Going thru different impedence, waterfall graphs how to read them where the low/mid/tweeter critical area is for different elements of music ect. Why drivers polarity are switched with crossovers ect
ok .. maybe NoRez is a wonderful product, my consideration is this ... Loudspeaker Producers in factory have million dollar equipment to design speakers, if you can get a groundbreaking product for 50 dollars pannel they can get it for almost 50% less .. with this great benefit they can easily spend less money in cheaper speakers cheaper MDF wood , cheaper crossover ecc and will still make a good sounding mass product.
or High End Loudspeaker producers can elevate a great product even way higher making a speaker that sounds very much better then opponents.. why with all this improvement we don't see this stuff in any HiEnd Speakers and even in low budget speakers?? or are alla this speaker companies with al there investment in research to stupid to make exactly the same research you did ?
I had a definite improvement in bass quality after installing No-Rez in large CerwinVega! Speakers. I definitely recommend it👍🏻🔈
I'll admit that the No-Rez is more convenient to use, but I had to come up with my own DIY equivalent using self adhesive industrial floor tiles and viscoelastic open cell foam on top of the tiles.
How did that work out?
I tried No-rez on a pair of Klipsch Forte IIs that I had at my office. Definitely improved the sound IMO. I think it might make more sense value wise on a newer/better pair of speakers, and perhaps smaller speakers given the cost per sq/ft. It was a fun experiment for me.
Nice 👍
I got some of this for my Polk Signature speakers and I felt like it helped those cabinets a lot.
I had a set of those s55 speakers and sold them. The cabinets needed bracing and dampening really badly.
This is not a correct description of the BBC idea of thin walled cabinets with damping, if that is what is being discussed at the beginning. The idea of that was to move the resonances (which are indeed inevitable) into a frequency range where the ear was less sensitive. The claim was that it was then possible to make the resonances below the threshold of audibility, whereas "rigid" cabinets would make the resonances occur at higher frequencies where the ear is so sensitive that it was all but impossible to make the resonances inaudible. Whether one thinks this works is another question. But the intention was certainly not to add bloom to the sound. Of course some people deviated from the BBC idea and did try to warm up their speakers by allowing audible resonances.
Great video, Danny, thanks. A while back when you were having issues with No Rez stock I went the DIY route based on some directions you actually gave on Audio Circle some time back. I used 1/8th inch commercial floor tiles, contact cement and 1" foam. Installed this in my Elac UniFi UB52's and the difference it made was fantastic! The cabinet now is absolutely rock solid and it added two pounds to the weight of the speaker. Bigger soundstage, cleaner top to bottom, clarity and a more effortless presentation. Now all that said, it definitely took more time than what it would take to install No Rez and Danny claims it's even better than the DIY method so if you can afford it and you want to save time go No Rez but the DIY option is there. Thanks!
can you share what type of tile and foam you used ? please
@@phillipmorris9847 Not sure if I can leave links in a comment but you can find what’s called VCT floor tile about everywhere for like 99 cents a square foot or less. Typically the brand is Armstrong. It’s 1/8” thick, NON-adhesive backing. Easy to score and snap. This tile is that typical commercial tile you see in schools, stores etc. I used contact adhesive to apply the tiles to the enclosure walls. The foam is just 1” foam from Hobby Lobby or Joann Fabrics typically used in cushions or what not. I used 3M or the like heavy duty spray adhesive to apply the foam to the tiles once the tile is in the cabinet.
@@sean_heisler thank you very much
Very interesting diy sean. Do you apply the tiles and foam to top and bottom of the cabinet or just the walls?
@@hachuelo69 Hi Jorge. Anywhere you can really. It’s tough to do the wall/baffle that the drivers are on but any other open wall, sides, top, bottom, are areas you want to apply the tile and foam or No Rez.
I’ve used ceramic coatings to great effect inside the speaker and it worked great, but this product has that foam layer that just hits the mark. This isn’t just a good product, it is a great product. Low impact financially for the benefit it gives. Try it if you haven’t and be stunned by what it does. This is one of the best low buck products that helps you enjoy your music with great effect. It shapes well and confirms easily to the inside of your speakers. To try it is to be convinced! Stay safe my mates!😊👍🏻😁
i wish you would do some A-B test.
Do I install the No Rez on the sides and back or just the sides? Thanks Danny
Everywhere.
My secret weapon is Recycled denim... Its hypoallergenic, You can buy it in thicker or thinner sheets, It has the same absorbent qualities, It's Cheaper!, And it is made from post consumer recycled products. (Your Pants)
You right about black hole, back in the 90’s I used roofing tar with sand , then 1/4 chip board that was run though a table saw with 1/8 slices in a asymmetrical pattern and then used, Astroturf under padding that I found in an abandoned worksite. Mass loaded and heavy as shit. Most of the cabinets I built back then were trapezoids with three-quarter inch rounded edges on the baffles 1 “ MDF Variable density, also asymmetrical bracing in the cabinets to reduce sympathetic resonance modes. Focal drivers scan spec . The other thing that I did was have outboard crossover right by my amplifiers and run separate cables to all drivers. I broke my brains crossover design, luckily I had some talented friends with talents but I did not possess as I found out. High quality capacitors and resistors with foil coils.
Hello and welcome on here today and also in the 90's era.
Roofing tar thick and sand with some lead buckshot. But the tar so thick I mounted different sizes of half rounds to bounce the sound around I side the box. Yell into the empty box, dead no echo, just a good amount of DB output lose if A-B to untreated box
Constrained layer, bronze, aluminium and MDF of various thickness with lead sheet lining enclosing a frame with apertures and tensioned with M16 steel threaded rods. Only then marine engine room damping panels and glass fibre fill wih sealed chambers for low midrange drivers, woofers and active, push-pull subs. Dead as a grave stone.
Hi I was reading your comments with interest and the use of sand I own a pair of Jamo Concert Elevens.This company back in it's heyday dabbled in the use of sand impregnated with resin in it's front speaker baffles ... They are beautiful sounding well constructed cabinets and use Seas driver's.
@@fredfungalspore I think we could agree that cabinet construction, despite its paramount importance, is the negected piece of the puzzle in most commercial offerings. Fancy drivers in nicely finished hollow, resonant boxes sell at a considerable mark-up. Heavily braced, inert cabinets are quite labour consuming and expensive not only to produce, but to ship as well. More so, if you perceive the bass reflex port as a detriment, rather than enhancement and have to make up for it with real estate - an additional LF driver and its dedicated amplifier for best results. The idea of attenuating as thoroughly as possible the sound emanating from the rear of the diaphragms and into the cabinet is not without its opponents, however I found it to work for me. Sounds weird at first and is more akin to listening to headphones, but that freedom from cabinet colouration is very revealing. One should not be able to hear or feel anything with the ear against the speaker cabinet/hand on the enclosure even when the drivers are bouncing around, in my opinion.
Great job & my question is if I install it inside of us powered subwoofer do I have to return the subwoofer?
You keep on saying 70 mil (as in millimeters) but I think you mean 70 thou, which is nearly 2mm. 70mm is nearly 3" and that material you have there is no where near that.
What about adding Dynamat that they use for car panels ? Then something on top to temper the reflection?
Dynamat was designed to damp out resonances in steel panels.
@@dannyrichie9743 Thanks Danny.....love your content by the way.
Beware that your speakers bass response is tuned (or should be anyway) to the dampening/absorptive material they came with !
If you change the characteristics of this material, the bass response tuning will certainly change.
Last year, I installed No Rez into a pair of monitor audio Silver 10 towers.
The No Rez cabinet dampening had a very small effect at least to the old "knuckle test".
It did however suck the bass out right of the speakers and as Danny said also lowered the tuning frequency about 2hz (hertz not hurt).
Does not sound like much but in my room was a very noticeable difference.
I even had to remove a couple bass traps and still did not have the same weight as before.
If the above is what you want then great, otherwise precede with caution !
Took the stuff out last week and replaced with the original foam pieces.
Bass in not quite as tight (or too tight as it was) but now has more weight and punch = more listenable !
Your added bass (without the No Rez) isn't bass, it is noise produced from cabinet resonances. It is a coloration that is not part of the music, but if you like that added bloom, there is nothing wrong with that.
@@dannyrichie9743 As I was reading the original comment my first thought was that the stock speaker was probably boomy. More bass but the wrong bass.
@@dannyrichie9743
Sorry, the different material does change the bass tuning for the cabinet Vs what the mfg. originally had !
I'm not hearing upper bass/lower mid range bloom.
This is bass in the 40 to 75 Hz region and most cabinets resonate at much higher frequencies.
I don't have the Thiel Small speaker parameters to accurately model the bass tuning but with any model I have ever used the level of dampening material has a huge impact on the mid bass going down to the box or port tuning frequency.
In this case the tuning went from 38Hz to 36Hz which will pull the mid bass down slightly.
You know this to be true but I'm not knocking the stuff just saying it is NOT a good thing for all speakers !
Mileage may vary with other speakers etc.
@@toddh95008 That is only 2Hz difference. Whether or not you add the original stuffing back in or even vary some of the stuffing a little one way or another and you'll get that much change or greater. Either way, it won't have any effect on the mid-bass output.
In your research of foam, did you ever come across an equivalent for the 2 piece foam on the Electro Voice Super Dome tweeter? Thanks and a great video.
Why don't manufacturers put a foam layer in to begin with?
In a well braced cabinet of sufficient thickness material is it really neccessary?
Thank you for the airspace question...
Have a couple German made speakers, and enjoy them, but can be shrill once in a while. Lubricated the tweeters which helped and got some no Rez and am VERY happy with the effect from the foam.Thank you so much for this great improvement in our stereo listening!!!!!!!
How did you lube the tweeters.
Mine seem a little harsh on some things.
@@chuckmaddison2924its ferrofluid ..
Its basically DynaMat with foam for the interna speaker box
Sort of, but Dynamat is design to dampen metal, is not volume neutral and has no foam layer.
@@dannyrichie9743 Hello folks:
If one is willing to have new boxes made up to include a few more box upgrade. To bring them up another level. For those who live downunder.
Take two. lol
Thanks, Danny; very informative video. Can NoRez sheets work as Room Treatment?
It is not ideal for this application. There are less expensive and better ways to treat the room.
Hi, are there any options to buy in the UK 🇬🇧 other than having to order via the website? Thanks
I guess those panels are essentially acting like high frequency passive radiators, however, unlike an actual PR, the "travel" is severely limited, meaning that it's dynamic range hasn't got a chance of matching the dynamics of the drivers. They also cannot work linearly across its pass band. They will literally bottom out, and reach maximum volume, while the speakers continue to get louder, meaning the sound signature at low volume will be significantly different to high volumes. (this will be due to this panel rather than the munson curve). It's also kinda only playing one frequency well, being a PR. It's not wide band, and if the panel that is vibrating is larger than the wavelengths it's creating, then the sound will beam, which will add to the uneven room distribution of that frequency.
All that isn't to say it can't sound good, but it is definitely too say that it would be extremely, extremely challenging and would be extremely room dependent.
There goes that idea...:(
If a cabinet resonance is adding to the music from the drivers, the two problems associated with it being used to add color to the sound of the speaker is first, that coloration will occur in a very narrow frequency range, and second, it will not be added in a linear fashion with volume, in other words, the higher the volume output of the speaker, the greater amount of resonance will be added.
I know you are trying to sell these panels, and I can appreciate the simplicity of the product, but I found an alternative. I have been adding carpet padding to the inside walls of the speakers I have been building for many years now, which is available in small rolls at the big box home builders stores. In the past I used carpenter's cement (like powergrab, coming in a tube and injected with a mechanical gun mechanism), and in my latest build, I switched out the carpenter's cement for a gallon of water based synthetic roofers cement that I was able to apply across the entire inside panel, and then applied the pre-cut carpet padding pieces, and this method achieves the same as what you have there. Seeing this video on your no-res that you have talked alot about is encouraging to me in that I know I am on the right track, thanks for the video.
I appreciate your DIY enthusiasm, but what you are doing is not at all what is achieved with No Rez. Just the damping layer of each sheet of No Rez weighs four pounds. To damp out resonances you need a heavy mass that will dissipate rather than transmit energy.
@@dannyrichie9743Danny, what about something like Canopus car sound deafening mat? (80 mil thickness)
Will that achieve a similar effect?
@@MadLadsAnonymous That material is designed for metal structures, but if you had some laying around and wanted to use it, it would still have some positive affect.
YOO DANNY ! LOVE YA WORK COWBOY, KEEP IT KICK'N KIRK'OUT'PEACE
Good morning,I probably will get a lot of hateful comments back from all your fans, but i really don't care what they say.
I have been watching you for awhile, and by the way I wonder if you will keep THIS comment on here since you only have all positive comments on here.
So I am following your video reviews and comments about many speakers here and it seems to me that all speakers at least 90 percent are never good to/for you.
I am just trying to buy a pair of speakers who are around 1000 dollars and would sound like the old vintage sound from the 70 and 80 ties time, but I do not have the money to upgrade any speaker by you nor the desire. So if you Danny are so neutral to your watchers and could give me and maybe many other watchers out here any recommendations then that would be very helpful, but again it seems to me that not ONE speaker to you is just good enough unless you fixed it or sell an upgrade, (good way of doing business ) still wonder if you would leave my comment on here. For your reference I am just an 62 year young guy who loves to hear to music, but only have the means to buy around 1000 dollar a pair speakers and I have an Marantz NR 1200 receiver that I love. Any advise would be helpful, I know you are busy but would appreciate an response from you. Sincerely Frank Grootenboer.
P.S. as my reference about the 70 /80 era is >>> I am looking for a warm neutral sound like the Wharfedale Linton sounds, but have only 1000 to spare, hope you understand.
The best way to find what you are looking for is to look in the used market for that type of speaker. Unfortunately most of the speakers of that era are going to have parts that are fairly poor quality or have aged to the point of needing replacement because of that alone.
It is kind of like asking me to recommend a car from the 70's to be your new daily driver and you have a budget of $1,000. Every high mileage car from the 70's is going to be wore out and need some work.The technology back then is not what it is today. If a car made it to 100,000 miles the engine needed a complete overhaul. Today cars get their first spark plug change at 100,000 miles. Speakers are no different.
Try look at KEF HTE 3005, aluminium castings enlosures, very good balanced, 5 star by WhatHiFi
hello frank! Maybe finding a pair that you like the looks and sound of and then using something like a minidsp to tune a bit warm sounding? roll off the top end and a little boost in the mid-bass?
@@JosephTongret I would never recommend a MiniDSP. They sound awful.
@@dannyrichie9743 thank you for your swift reply, I kinda don't know what to do with it, I guess I need to safe up some more $$$ and go what I am reading about and come over very good according to many reviewers. The Wharfedale Linton speakers, in combination with my NR 1200, so Danny do you think that works well just out of the box, because I really do not have the know how to modify them and you mentioned in your review that the crossover is a bit poor.Thanks again for your answer back, looking forward to hear from you again.
Sincerely , Frank Grootenboer.
Started to watch this earlier, but it was the previous video. Weird déjà vu for a Sunday morning. Glad you got it sorted out!
You save us time, money, and frustration! Thanks, Sensei! (This resonates with my brain.)
It would be nice to see measurements as you explain no rez. Showing the difference in a speaker with and without no rez. It would be cool if you could do the same thing with a competitors product (like the parts express, I think it's called sonic barrier).
A better test would be compare a tower speaker that needs bracing like a Klipsch RP-8000F and add for example four internal braces and compare that to another RP-8000F treated with No Rez.
Very informative. I really like these technical explanation talks.
This episode really resonated with me.
Same
Yet my initial peak excitement was well damped, and dissipated nicely.
super talk Gary.Very informative.
I just had an idea .......it might sound stupid ......has anybody ever tried a double wall speaker and the cavity filled with sand?????for reducing the resonances of the box.......do u think that it will work .......???
Q-Acoustics does something similar with their speaker cabinets. I believe it's 3 separate layers with the middle layer being some sort of gel to minimize vibrations/resonance. Cool idea... they call it Gelcore technology...
Someone did! and it DOES! My 1992 DAHLQUIST Prelude (boxed) Series. 3/4 inch side walls of the CA2 monitor are purposely left hollow for filling with sand , or my case, lead shot. 83lbs in total weight per speaker later= they AIN'T moving! Still , I went ahead and did the "almost as good" DIY option with 12mm commercial floor tiles lined with self adhesive Noico foam after Danny upgraded their crossovers. Half the fun is trying.
We offer a sandbox design for this DIY servo sub kit: gr-research.com/product/sub-series-servo-sealed/
I would argue one technical point. You suggest that only the damper layer "takes up air space". Because of it physically reduces the inner dimensions by 1/8" where applied. But that the cellular foam is open pour that allows the air to fill the space. Yes to fill the space not taken up by the physical structure that is/ that makes up the cells. The materials that make up the foam cells do so by occupying space while allowing open space for the air flow. But it does occupy physical space and thus reduce interior air volume.
I would agree that this air space reduction has less effect than increasing the air mass density as caused by the cells.
You're being too technical yes it's physically does take up some space but the effective reduction in space based on the parameters is negligible
@@ClassifiedBrief For those that don't care, yes it is too technical. I would bet the total volume is close to that of the damper layer.
Glass fibre fill does in fact act as if the chamber volume was increased by about 15 to 25%. Counterintuitive, but well proven.
@@paulb4661 OK, acts as if, not what I was talking about though,. Thanks.
Can you put that airspace info on the product page?
Would the open-cell absorption decrease effectiveness of a passive radiator?
Correct. To a certain extent.
Hello folks: good question as I did forgotten a lot of information about this. So I'll wing it. The box panels will have less pressure because that energy is going be use to move the PR.?
Edit Like Polk speakers like to use PR. I don't understand why not just add another woofer. Well no port noise and getting the box sealed for the PR as planned.
It's essentially a minimal amount of open celled absorption... so the volumetric aspects would change relative to overall box size...i.e., small compact box may exhibit impact, whereas large box may not.
Regarding box pressure and panel behavior... good question.
Perhaps the peak pressure/peak deflection wouldn't change much, however that behavior is damped over time.
Pure speculation... I'd have to perform the work and then determine.
I believe in the combination of the 2 materials but it's cheaper to buy a sound dampening sheet (1 to 2mm) and put good quality acoustic foam (25mm) on top..this will have 99% the same effect 👍 I live in Europe so shipment would be to expensive..
It is not the same and you will spend more in time and labor trying to get close. If you want to give it a shot though give me a call and I'll walk you through the best way to get there from what is commercially available.
@@dannyrichie9743 You're such a good sport, sir.
I too need some mystical magical foam for my subpar speakers. 100% improvement??? Wow!!! Placing order now......
I am thinking of ordering some of this material. I own a set of klipsch RF-83's towers, matching center and surrounds.
Movies are played through all the speakers. Music I only use the two towers. I recently started watching the channel and decided to see what the towers look like inside. Well to my shock there was hardly any sound deadening material inside the three quarter inch MDF enclosures, two braces, and some half inch of that memory foam at the top the front sides nothing at the bottom or the bottom front below the last bottom base driver, the back left side had memory foam only half way down from the top, the bottom half towards the back they had the cables from the crossover panel which sat at the bottom in the back of the case, the cables/harness was attached with double sided tape, which I had to replace, on the ride side of the tower the entire side four feet in hight had no sound deadening material whatsoever. This was the case for both of the towers. I don't know why they did this.
So what I did, I had some leftover three quarter inch memory foam from a project I did many years ago, so I used it to fill up the sides which had no sound deadening material, bottom, front bottom below to bottom base driver, the left bottom half side in the back and the entire four foot side in the right side of the speaker.
Once finished I fired then old puppies up, and low and behold, the sound deadening material did wonders, it smoothed out the top end, the midrange was more tight and smooth, hardly any roll-off, and the base tightened up and turned into a totally different animal. What I noticed was that it lost a bit of it's sensitivity, which was in a way a good thing.
The towers sound more pleasing to listen to, the harshness when turning up he volume just vanished. Heck and that's with the original crossover panel.
The system is powered by an Integra DTC-9.8 pre-amp and an Outlaw seven channel 200W Per Channel amplifier. So no lack of power running into them.
My question regarding this sound deadening material and it's installation, if you are building new speakers, I see no issue as you without install it before closing off the box. But with a speaker like mine, heck the memory foam was a pain to work through the front ports. I would have to cut a bunch of small pieces to fit them through the front ports.
My question is, how much better if this stuff compared to regular memory foam.
I built a pair of the CSS Criton 2TDX Tower speakers recently from 3/4" Red Oak but I lined the top, back, and sides with 1/8" 3M self adhesive sound deadening panels with 1" Parts Express sound damping foam over it. I didn't discover NoRez until after I had built them. They sound very good to me but I'm biased.. 🙂 This is only my second speaker build and my first high end expensive speaker build. I don't know how much of a difference NoRez would have made over what I used but I figure they are better than having no cabinet resonance/sound damping at all. I'm not an audiophile and have little experience with high end equipment or building it but the 2TDX's sound very good to me paired with the Elekit TU-8600S 300B Tube amp I built to go with these speakers. I also bought the superior crossovers for the Critons as well. The whole system is a huge improvement over what I had before. Thanks for the video!
Everything has a point resonance.
Even bridges and that can be a problem.
An inner and outer cabinet construction of particle board.
With damping between and inner cabinet full ,lots of holes.
My small bookshelf home theater speakers especially the center had resonance. I added No Rez and now no more resonance. Better in all aspects. I had an echo sound before now it sounds tight without coloration. I took video before and after and No Rez is the winner.
I find using 1" Baltic Birch on 5 panels, and two layers of 1" Baltic Birch on the fron precludes the need. BUT, I would definitely use it on any commercially available speakers, including any flatpack box.
I have a set of big box 15" speakers that sound pretty good, but when you turn them up you defiantly get a little color. I am wondering if this would clean that up. I built a set of garage speakers and lined them with carpet pad (the thick foam stuff). Seams to do a good job, but there was very little science involved in that build and they are much smaller speakers. I also braced them very well. The 15"s are braced but if you give them a knock you can tell it could be better. A nice thing is with a big woofer hole like these, it is easy to add additional bracing if needed, but I think a little more damping will do the trick.
GOOD!!
Do you think this would work for a car subwoofer box application? It sounds like it would...Either way I appreciate the information.
I need to find two 4"x4" pieces to put behind some mid-woofers because I don't need a whole sheet.
If you have a minimally resonating loudspeaker cabinet then the drivers and crossovers must be top notch, otherwise the measurements will tell all and all you will hear is the shortcomings of those components.
I bought some stuff years ago from a place that sells speaker parts and kits. I'm not sure what it was, but it smelled like it was made from petroleum. It had a heavy, rubbery tar-like texture with an adhesive backing. The plastic covering the adhesive was blue. Have you heard of anything like this?
The tar like stuff is likely a Butyl based dampener. Usually meant for use with metal panels on cars. But I'm not aware of that specific product. It works well on plastic horns to reduce any resonances there also. I've seen people use it on the backside of the horns for some Klipsch heritage models, like the larger Forte and Cornwall models. It's a little more flexible making it ideal for difficult shapes.
In general, caution is advised with application of such materials, as volatiles may lead to premature failure of adhesives holding the driver former, diaphragm and suspension together.
I remember this, in fact I was going to ask danny about it. There is a youtube of them putting it on a square piece of aluminium, it deadens the vibration really well.
So here is a question fer ya.....Why do some custom speaker builders leave portions of the interiors of speakers untreated. I.e. sound dampening on one side of a box but not on the other? What was their reasoning and what's your position on that practice and why.
I just wished I lived somewhere in your area Danny...you would have a dedicated customer.You said before that you could ship to me in South Africa,I was wanting a DIY speaker set.I am not sure how the insurance on the postage would work as a lot of stuff never makes it to customers in this country.For someone who is on pension this is a bit of a scary undertaking financially speaking.So tired of looking for a good product and being sold rubbish.Take care Danny.
I recall my old Leak Sandwich speakers had sheets of a mastic-like material for cabinet panel damping. Did that work?
I love this guy.
How many walls do you line with it?
It is recommended to use it on any panel that is also an exterior wall.
Bitumen pads, sheets. are used in some speakers... You can use Acoustic foam ..
Great Video, Awesome shirt! I always love your content Danny 😀
Thanks, Danny explanation of the product and the justification on the cost aspects. I have confidence yr doing all you can to give us all a gr8 deal, cheers
Wouldn’t kilmat and rockwool be superior to no rez?
Not at all. Those products are good for internal standing wave, but have no damper and do nothing for resonance control.
@@dannyrichie9743 thank you for the info
@@dannyrichie9743 do you have data on this?
By the way, rockwool is hazardous to your health when its fibers are inhaled... so if your speakers are ported... not soo good.
does sticking it to the outside of speakers do anything?
It would be cool to get some over here in Australia.
can I fill the box with rockwool? differences?
You can. It won't control cabinet resonances since it's not stiff or dense enough, but it will help with standing waves. It's a much better product than polyfill which tends to be too loose, with fiberglass being a good middle ground.
However, it is hazardous to breathe rockwool fibers, so IF your box is ported you will be pumping said rockwool fibers into your room with every single bass note and therefore right into you & your family's lungs... even your pets lungs as well.
Exactly
Rockwool damps acoustic resonances, whereas NoRez primarily damps physical resonances.
Just curious, I've seen your video on the Klipsch Forte III's and how they were improved. Have you done the Forte IV's yet? And what was the cost of the upgrades for them? Thanks so much. Enjoy your videos here in Hong Kong.
No one has brought me a pair of the IV's yet.
Let’s take for example a Harbeth speaker. It has “tin” cabinet walls. And it resonates for sure. So I think this would change the sound of the speakers a lot. It’s not the same speaker with this. Would it be better? I’m not so sure. Because lot of people likes Harbeth’s the way it is. What do you think?
A lot of people like the way they sound. When I hear them, I hear cabinet noise, and I can't get past it.
While your spoken description of the problem and the resolution with NoRez is good, an audio measurement of panel resonance before and after would have given the non-believers a visual proof of product.
Good idea.
have you analyzed the NHT Superzero speakers? if you have at least heard them, do you have mods that would improve them?
I have had NHT speakers in the house, but I don't think we have had that model.
The Sonic Barrier I used yesrs ago was effective for a TL, but the adhesive side was weak.. I had to use some adhesive spray for it to stay put and not fall off..
The suspended layer will muddy the midrange. It also has no damping layer. That product does nothing for resonance control and makes the speaker sound congested.
Has anyone tried using it in speakers that're designed to have very little damping?
I'm talking about the ones that use stands and spikes to take care of cabinet vibrations simply by sending the vibrations down to the floor.
You cannot send all noise to the floor... The excited walls vibrate and make a sound like anything that vibrates at the inherent material resonance frequency
You did not really say if you do away with normal filling, like rock wool etc, when using these dampening panels ?
You can do away with the rockwool when using No Rez, but you can still use other types of damping material with the No Rez.
Do you have to cover the entire panel? Or would just a strip be sufficient? I have faintly tall floor standers.
Covering the center portion of a panel works pretty well.
A friend had B&W 801 matrix speakers that had coughed a cigarette filter size and shape foam material out of the port. We did remove the woofer to see what way the damper material was used, we were amazed at what was inside the cabinet.
What was inside?
Well. I recently got some of the blackhole material along with some weighted mat for a speaker build. Did you test the blackhole material in different layouts inside the cabinet? Is it always going to create that loading effect or is there a strategic way to use it to avoid this?
The way to avoid it is to not over do it.
Here’s a great video with video of how a speaker driver works and an explanation with images and what each part is called
th-cam.com/video/RxdFP31QYAg/w-d-xo.html
Wow, their illustration is wrong.
great stuff, too pricey tho.
2:13: what if you could have a cabinet that resonates at a point where the driver/crossover combo leaves a gap?
No. The gap is up fairly high. Cabinet resonances that add body and weight to vocals or acoustic instruments are considerably lower. A cabinet resonance in the region where crossover gaps typically reside would not be suitable for a speaker enclosure . I’m thinking a ringing metal box would be what you’re describing.
And that is why the best box is no box.
Hey Danny, great explanation of the product and the purpose of use! But I was wondering if you have to cover the panels at 100% or if the No Rez still works at 80 or 90% coverage? TNX -RUSTY- at Audio Spectrum
80 to 90% coverage is fine.
@@dannyrichie9743 Hey Danny, what coverage % would you advise for a Passive Radiator speaker design? Would you need to keep the area around the passive free of No-Rez to not absorb the reflections off the cabinet walls and allow them to properly drive the passive?
I’m curious, in all your videos that you modify and ‘fix’ the various speakers.. I don’t recall you EVER adjusting the tuning frequency of the box? Why is that? Surely throwing a block in to reduce volume, or, shortening/lengthening the port.. would be more cost effective than the expensive components in notch filtering. Don’t misunderstand, I love the approach to the filters fixing so much! It’s great, I’m just genuinely asking, as it confuses me! Cheers 😎
you are not the first with that thought. i was thinking he would make them all sealed boxes and filled them with absorbing material.
I don't see too many designs come through with the air space way out of line.
This is a great hifi innovation! Do I recall correctly from some of your other videos that No-Res is best applied on the side walls of the cabinet only, and not the rear or (cut-out) front walls?
Rear panels need it too.
Just when I think I understand the basics
You throw another curve ball at me with the science of speaker cabinet resonance.
Could you please do a segment on your thoughts on Open Baffle speaker's and design..... Always an honest and interesting segment.... thanks for posting from Down Under .. 👇.
Danny has submitted quite a bit of OB content.
@@FOH3663 Really must go back on previous TH-cam episodes to take a look much appreciated.
Danny, what is the damping layer made out of?
It is actually a composite of various materials. I'll put together something on it.
Does it help if you just line the 2 sidewalls only? Thanks
Anything helps.
Could no-rez be used to make acoustic panels?
It could, but there are less expensive ways to make acoustic panels. Heavy dampers are not needed for acoustic panels.
I bet you hate Audio Note & BBC design speakers, being they're designed to resonate. Audio Note makes speakers designed to be put into room corners as close as possible to walls.
I have heard those Audio Note speakers. It did indeed sound like sound coming from each corner of the room and very localized to each speaker.
@@dannyrichie9743 I think DeVore makes a clone of the Audio Note speakers also. Well actually the Audio Note are a clone too. I forget the original designers name at the moment. I remember the story was he used cheap off the shelf drivers & put them in a resonant box & pissed off the hifi establishment.
Yes, no Rez is a good way to go . 👍
So how's that any different from foams you can get
It is not about the foam. It is about the damper.
Price!