I'm so glad that you made this video. I'll be putting together a system in a few months. You are now my #1 choice of speaker manufacturer. I think you really clarified some misconceptions. Thank you!
Have been listening to stereo components for over 60 years and gr research seems to be one of the most thoughtful commentators I have ever listened to online. I knew someone back in Boulder Colorado in 40 years ago whose whole business is just a little home business was to replace the crossovers with more high quality parts to improve reasonably good stereo speakers. So this guy makes sense... And his presentations are always balanced and thoughtful.
Great response/review. I love where you ultimately went with the invite for Andrew. I can personally confirm the validity of a speaker upgrade I have used. I found some Polk S20s on absolute blowout clearance. They are just on my desk in an untreated office. I thought they were dull and loose with the sound where I had to push them to show any kind of performance. I figured I like doing soldering and stuff like that so I ordered an upgrade kit and some no-rez. BOOM! At real low volumes, the sound stage was immediately full of detail as the speakers just disappeared. They voice extremely well and go way beyond any review of a stock S20. I'm sold on the work you do. I love Andrew's videos as well & would really like to see you guys get together and break bread. It would make for a fun video and probably be good for both of your channels. THANKS DANNY!
Andrew said that he doesn't think it makes sense to buy speakers that need to be improved later, but it makes more sense to buy speakers that you like right from the start. And what does it matter what's inside the speakers if you like how they sound? Then everything will be fine. If you like speakers in which the manufacturer has used cheap parts, that's your problem. 
Some people don't know when to stop either. Some people are never satisfied and never sit down and just enjoy the music. I see people "upgrading" all the time and never going to be happy. Most people are just splitting hairs when it comes to what's coming out of their system and feel they need to "UPGREADE". If that's what you like more power to you. I'll just sit back and enjoy life and music...
Brilliantly measured and eloquent response to that thinly veiled attack from Robinson. Keep up the good work Danny, informing those of us that like to get informed as well as being open to discussion and never dogmatic. Oh and you're always a gentleman.
I had one guy tell me his $14 earbuds sound better than most $4000 speaker systems. And I had another idiot tell me that the specs on his computer's CD player says "0 to 50,000 Hz", therefore all music he listens to through his computer is 0 to 50KHz. And there was no convincing him otherwise. So you are right.... there really are people who should never, ever, ever see the inside of anything. And the really mind blowing part is, both were arguing with me on the discussion page of the wikipedia entry for "audiophile".
But as Danny always says, all the manufacturer build to a pricepoint. And more people like shiny stuff than a black box with great parts inside you cannot see. So they spend money on design and build of a nice shiny box. Parts don't bring customers, high gloss videos about nice speakers do ;-)
If the parts are spectacular and of immaculate standards and it is not voiced correctly it doesn’t matter. Andrew’s whole point is how does it sound stop taking everything apart and just listen to the music and enjoy. If it doesn’t sound good return it and try something new. Stop trying to fix something not designed correctly in the first place.
A well designed crossover makes ALL the difference. I spent months learning from people and learned how to do quasi anechoic measurements of my speakers. Then I redesigned the crossovers. After a few iterations I made a crossover that is phase coherent and quite linear. Whereas before it had a dip around 2.3khz and wasn’t phase coherent at the crossover. I used premium parts to make the crossovers and it was kinda like getting new speakers. Yeah it made them sound much better. I did swap out crossover parts in real time and think I can hear a difference. ( the crossover is external so I was able to swap different parts with the same values ). I did hear some differences between air core inductors vs iron core. Don’t know so much about the caps though. So although I dig Andrew, yes it does matter how the crossover is designed and implemented And besides as you mentioned. It was super fun and educational. Even at 55 I love learning this stuff. It’s most of the fun actually for me.
Crossovers and associated compensation circuits do make a large difference however soft dome mid-range and tweeters will always sound different than cone mid-range and compression tweeters.
EXACTLY... We are dealing with AUDIO, and make quality decisions on what we see (cosmetics)... Imagine, going to buy a fine painting for your living room, and instead of looking at it, you make your decisions based on licking it....Would you do that???
@@grahamstrahle4010 and others listen with computers, if everything in this world was perfect, which is an impossibility, the world would be a boring place. Danny is also talking to folks with disposable income. The kind that can have it to spend 10k for what's considered a mid level amplifier or those where money doesn't matter at all and perfection does. Man I just ain't got that kinda of money, further, one person's trash is another person's treasure, just ask anyone who's ever been divorced and remarried another divorcee and had been happily married for 20 years. Trust your ears, if it sounds good to you than it sounds good, if it sounds great then it sounds great, to you. It might not to me even after putting Danny's expensive crossovers in speakers that already cost way to much money. Power to y'all, I'm glad if you got that kinda of disposable income, I for one do not and it's my hard earned money, I'm gonna buy what sounds great to my ears, if they don't after I get them home and have broken them in they go back to where that came from and the search continues. I'm not going to void the warranty only to find out after broken in they don't sound good "to my ears"!!
Recently I completed the Dennis Murphy Mod for my Pioneer SP-BS22 bookshelf speakers. I can say there absolutely was a great improvement in sound. The sound stage is now more expansive and deep with a smoother high end. I learned from practical hard proof: Crossovers matter. The original speakers were quite nice for the price but the upgrade took them to a new level.
Fun! Enjoy them, I did. It's too bad the BS22 is not made anymore. "People making budget speakers put in 10 cent parts. I spend $1 and that makes a big difference." --A.J. 😊
I like your video's and find them informative and entertaining. No product is perfect and there is always room for improvement. I bought a fairly expensive pair of speakers ($2000) and discovered later that the bracing in the cabinet was not really that good. I didn't notice the issue until later when I played them at a really loud volume level. The next model of that speaker addressed that issue. Not everyone can afford to buy a new pair of speakers every couple of years. I worked a short time in the Audio Industry, and later I calibrated measuring instruments. I recognize that you are providing a valuable service to your customers and viewers.
I follow and enjoy both the AR and GR channels. When I saw the original AR video, I anticipated this response from GR. Personally, I took AR's "don't care" comments in a different context. He's using the "black box" reviewing technique, in that whatever he can't hear or see from the outside is irrelevant. He's "blind testing" things such as the crossover components, dampening material, bracing and binding post material, which aren't visible to him. He can't control the decisions made by the designer and therefore "doesn't care" how the designer got to the end result, only how it fares against the direct competition with its outward characteristics (i.e. sound, aesthetics, construction). Ultimately, he's judging it by the same characteristics as the typical end consumer. I'm sure he appreciates (and can likely hear) the benefits of better crossover components, non-magnetic binding posts, etc. but he also realizes the cost concessions required at certain price points and trade-offs to be made. Perhaps, instead of saying "doesn't care", a more accurate statement would be "I don't want to know". He's relying on his senses for the review and doesn't want to influenced by the brand name on some crossover component.
Well, great video, I do realize that Danny and Andrew is doing two entirely different work in the same industry, Best example I could quote that Andrew is a car salesman and Danny is the an upgrade mechanic. Companies do use cheaper parts which are invisible to customer hidden inside, and spend more over design and marketing for better sales or bring their product market competitive to other products. Its a very mature talk by Danny, I understand as having decades of experience with audio and hope these videos educate younger generation as well to choose better product or know how to upgrade and save thousands $$ buying expensive stuff.
Not really. Andrew & Kristi didn't say GR Research or even make that suggestion as there are many DIY folks. Therefore this public direct call out by Danny man is a bit much. An email or phone call to Andrew & Kristi would've been MUCH more appropriate and professional. A direct call out isn't a good way to win someone over or send an invite for a visit. What I see is Danny using a call out to gain attention of Andrew & Kristi's audience to boost sales. Really Danny? Really??? Not only am I embarrassed, I'm embarrassed for you.
@@lithiumstatic I see Danny putting the truth out on how parts matter, and when Andrew said 'who cares what's on the inside', I thought that was quite ill informed, to put it mildly. We shall see what Andrew is made of by how he responds.
Hello folks. I feel Andrew has a bit of narcissist behavior. This is the second time or same type of reply as the first time. Calling out all reviewers. Now those who did visit Danny's they walk out going home. With brand new perspective. Ride Easy
@@BootJamesOut Funny you would call Andrew a narcissist when he never pointed out anyone in specific. Who's publicly calling out who??? Danny. I won't drop him a label, but you can figure it out if you're able to be unbiased. Last don't mistake confidence for narcissism which you're clearly doing.
@@pounceonyou1958 He responded live with humility and apologetically. Something Danny would never do even though he's the one making public finger pointing call outs. Looks much more like he's using it to draw customers from Andrews channel. Really sad to see that kind of behavior. Also really sad to see biased folks patting Danny on the back for being on online bully.
All I know is, I have speakers the manufacturers highly regarded ,once I tested the speakers , was quite disappointed and wanted to return them. I found out you had an upgrade kit for those speakers I bought and installed the upgrade kit , am I glad I did ,I can almost melt into the same music after the upgrade that I was disappointed before. I trust your work because the results is definite, stay unwavering some of us that know better got your back through your proven work, those that do not know ignorance is bliss
I don't see how anyone in their right mind could hold a grudge against GR Research. Danny's videos help everyone enjoy their speakers. He demonstrates where very inexpensive speakers and components can be quite good, and improved, and, yes, sometimes points out where an expensive speaker can easily be improved or fixed by using a $10.00 resistor instead of a $0.50 resistor. And, Danny almost always uses measurements to back up his opinions. I think watching Danny's videos can improve peoples enjoyment of very cheap speakers or their expensive speakers. This is a gift. Knowing the difference between good quality and bad quality is beneficial for any material thing we buy.
I'am a hobbyist that was buying from Zalytron on long Island back in the day. I had "the books" and some software but learned that it was much better to send the drivers out to madisound, have them analyzed, and have the crossovers designed by people that really knew how to use LEAP. That being stated, It's obvious i got my feet pretty wet and the few people that are getting into this now, should really carefully watch, listen, and understand your vids. They are 100% accurate. If I was to do another build (which im not), I would send the drivers to GR, or Madisound! But it gets to the point where one would be better off simply buying a proven speaker other than wasting countless hours trying to re-invent the wheel! Edit: as far as your upgrades, it's a great idea and small investment for people that want to keep and upgrade their "vintage" speakers, or even "fix" the newer ones that they may own! Thank you for such great vids!!!
Audio is like the automotive industry. 99% of the folks out there buy a stereo system and they are done. Then there is that 1% that likes tweak what they have. They might use heavy gauge OFC wires. They might replace their op-amps with a higher grade chips. And some might tweak the crossover. Hot rodders have been tweaking cars for years.
That's exactly who Danny is. Racing the quarter mile is another of his passions. I can't see the video right now. But I think he's wearing a drag racing t-shirt.
Excellent analogy. I've never left a car stock for more than a month, and once I got into diy and customized speakers, I'll never go back. It's crazy how much manufacturers leave on the table. Upgrading the crossover parts is like going from stock garbage shocks to some adjustable Koni shocks.
@@JC-lk3oy Maybe with exceptions as it is a T50 from Gordon Murray! But not all cars and equipment are at that level, possibly none, so I understand what you mean.
Humble honest and great points. I have been around “high end” hifi with my dad since the 70s. I’ve worked with some people who are very well known in the industry. This is not bs. I built a power supply and swapped caps for a year before I landed on the right filter caps. When it comes together it is amazing.
Another point is, ,in general, the higher end higher cost speakers tend to use better parts in the x-over, wiring, connectors etc.. Why would they do that if it made no differeince? PS audio speakers for instance. Nothing but high quality parts.
What a splendid video. I have watched your channel for some years now. In my opinion always interesting, honest, cautious and full of fine expertise. I love your work and I learned a lot. Thank you so much. Your answer to Andrew is very kind and understanding. Your authenticity is striking. But still I doubt whether Andrew will understand. He seems so opniated about things he clearly does not understand and is not willing to understand. A pity really. Compliments to you Gerry! You are the best. Many, many thanks for all your wisdom and kindness!
@@ChadHuisinga It's pretty obvious that someone trying to sell you the product isn't going to highlight any flaws in it. They're literally incentivized to portray the product in a positive light regardless.
You ROCK Danny!! I've learned far more from you than any other audio TH-camr. Anyone can plug in a speaker, listen and comment. You actually understand speaker design and have done more for the audio community than any of those other jokers. Building my own speakers was a really fun and rewarding project. Thank You!
what few seem to realize is the absolute best parts come in almost no speakers regardless of price. many 'philes have a tough time wrapping their head around that concept.
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt too funny. Its actually quite true. Take a look at Wilson, Rockport, Magico. They use good parts but far from great parts. Open a few up and have a look.
I really enjoy listening to your videos and agree with you. Parts matter. I bought a kit from George Short ,North Creek, and he tried to sell the best sounding capacitors, resisters, wire, and coils. In fact he wound coils which were used by many manufacturers. The speaker kit i purchased he pair matched every component and speaker. His 10 gauge coils were massive and really did sound better. His speakers kits were unmatched dollar for dollar than many of the best manufacturers at the time. I really wish I could have heard his ribbon speakers which were almost full range.
You're always criticised by those who do less never more. These companies pay very little into research & design & expect consumers to just such up the end product.
Soundstage/Imaging, a genuinely Holographic presentation is the single-most important factor in EVERY aspect of my audio equipment. Across the board. This is coming from someone who began selling high-end retail audio back in the 80s. I've had all of these years to determine what provides the most enjoyable experience (for me).
I stopped watching his channel a long time ago. If I had not, going out of his way to demonstrate ignorance about speaker design would have done the trick. 🤪
Me too. I stopped following that channel also because I didn't like the 'smug' attitude that I detected on their channel. GR Research emphasise that a lot of speakers are obviously made to a price point, but if the speaker is well designed then GR Research are able to make your original purchase sound significantly better for a modest outlay and bit of DIY input - and who doesn't like a bit of DIY input!
I don't bother watching any reviewer who does not at least look inside the box. If they're going to put in such low effort, then they're not worth my time.
The upgrade tech talks are the best bit. I've learned so much about speaker design from this channel. The keep it simple design philosophy in GR-Research really works. I understand the acoustic physics, but the hands on design / measure / iteration approach is the best.
When these things devolve into personal criticism they completely lose me. I get both points of view. For me, if the quality of the sound is (subjectively to me) is commensurate with the price, then we’re good. DIY upgrades are a perfectly legitimate way to enjoy the hobby. OTOH, Expecting speakers to sound good with out upgrades is reasonable. The $/sound ratio is what matters. As someone whose solder joints look like used bubble gum, I need a decent sound from the factory. You both have perfectly valid opinions. So let’s get back to the music.
A couple of years a ago, I took my Jamo 7.2 speakers in to have my bass woofers repaired. My speakers were 20 years old at the time. The repair shop gave me the option to rebuild my crossovers. There was no need to redesign, just upgrade very old and very cheap components. WOW! What a difference. I spent close to $1000, but the difference was nothing short of amazing. I think Danny is providing a much needed service. It is a shame that speaker manufacturers go cheap on the crossover components, but they do. I am sure some of the improvement was because the components were old, but I know they never sounded this good even when new. By the way, the tweeters and midrange drivers were still in great shape and nothing was done to them.
Same as the guys I know that get car systems, they buy the same speakers ect. but one guy always changes crossover ect and doesn't use the all in one block that you can buy, he does it with little resistors ect and his stereo systems sound 3xs as good.
He is true, only sound matters to the customer. For 99%. The 1% would like to know. But the 99% is where the money comes so ask again who cares. Not me too. I do know the speakers i use sounds good. Iw had few, from genelec G5 to "the ones" to few Klipsh models to Jamo one to and so on. Triangle antal stays. For now :D You can upgrade the crossovers and what ever, that is like changing engines intakes and adding turbo to the car, its not for everyone, maybe to the 1%.
Well done Danny..you are a true gentleman who takes pride on ‘making the world a better place’ . The love of music and sound for people is a big one. Who are you going to trust? An experienced sound technician and engineer like yourself or a salesman/ reviewer? Everyone will agree. You can’t fake quality.
I find it fascinating that we are being told that you need a special room set up to listen to your speakers in the real world are a least in my world our entertainment is usually set up in our living area , everyone doesn't have the luxury of have a dedicated listen room
If he does not care about what is in a speaker, he really should not be in the speaker review domain. Credibility is built on deep understanding and a wide base of knowledge. Anything else may be arrogance in its true meaning
Not that I disagree, but you don't really believe that the majority of speaker reviewers, in the history of speaker reviewers, were well versed in speaker design or even a novice at design for that matter. That being said, I wouldn't be quick to dismiss any reviewers' experience at what they do. There's always going to be two kinds of audiophiles; those who only care about how a speaker sounds and those who only care how it measures. Both are valid. And both can be completely unrepresentative of how a speaker will sound in your environment and application. But it's always going to be impractical for me to believe that I should not trust my ears when it comes to speakers, when they can be measured, but I should trust my ears when comes to audiophile esoterica, i.e. that which is not substantiated by measurements.
Wow. Real high standards there fella. I guess you only watch 4 review channels. But honestly, it’s not a big deal. It’s just Hifi. No wrongs or rights. Andrew is right because the vast majority of folks just buy a speaker, push it up against a wall and don’t care much about its crossover. A minority of specialized audiophiles will tear into a speaker and upgrade internals. And that’s ok too. But it’s a small number of folks.
The ears are important but it does not change the fact that when the parts are different , you should hear the difference. If you don’t, go and have a hearing test.
Danny this is a great video! I love all of your stuff and all of your passion. I also love the fact that you repeatedly mentioned the fun of it. That's why I continue to do this as an avocation. I started doing speaker design professionally starting 50 (12 years old) years ago and got an electrical engineering degree and actually briefly worked for JBL for a time in the late 70s. I went into IT engineering because I can make more money lol. IT in the past 35 years has been as good a 'wild' and exciting geek ride as there has ever been - even more that audio stuff. But as you say for speakers and audio - just the fun of it and of course there's also once you're done with it you get to sit down and re listen to all your favorite reference material to see what you've achieved and what you've lost. And testing is very important too but it's only half the story. (that also why I am a foodie that worked in restaurants for 10 years) Testing is obviously very important in the design phase and a very valuable tool for that. If i had the software and compute power now back in the 70s Yikes - i may have decided to be a speaker designer! Andrew Robinsons video - (I do feel obligated to say in ARs defense that he never mentioned Danny GR at all) If you're not interested in what's inside then you're not interested in what's inside fair enough sir! If so then just buy a better speaker, still considering dannys point that more cost does not necessarily get better parts/design, but it doesn't mean you need to poo poo people producing / consuming peeps that just_love _to play with this stuff and of course listen . AND Danny - when you say this or that makes a HUGE difference (where you sell and profit from this - kind of a conflict of interest at least a little?!? ;)) that is also just spending much more money on the original speaker investment - based on solely your opinion. You both fully know that statement is true!!! (side note - stuff like cheap binding post that may break much more easily , and wire used in the xover - please dont give that praise as to MASSIVE differences in speaker sound - they almost never effect the end sound unless they are just defective) I really loose any / all patience to listen on voodoo analysis, both test and listening, and I have heard so many listening tests where the improvement effects of these 'things' , gold plated power cables, etc, etc,etc - gets completely busted .... as the people making the claims in these controlled AB tests - cannot tell the difference, they just use it as marketing to line thier coffers. OK no more soap box) . As to you Danny on some of your claims - you do sometimes make claims that these more expensive caps , etc or binding posts (for example) sound more spacious or open - you must admit - that is purely a qualitative statement of opinion based solely on your listening tests (and others may agree with you but others dont) so keep that in mind - as a VERY large percentage of high and higher end than that - audio sound - is primarily subjective and or just marketing buzz. So I am saying we can all hear good to great sound reliably - beyond that it is pure opinion. I know this from 50+ years of doing this as a student, engineer, and listening to recorded / reproduced music on systems of every possible quality. Now having said that - anything with a passive xover is a compromise........ :) most quote "audiophiles" (i used to be but not really anymore - I just love great sound,, not talkin about it like it was really fine wine or cheese! :)) amazingly have no clue though that building speakers with a really high qaulity passive crossover is a VERY hard and VERY expensive experience. The xover can easily be the most expensive part of a high end 3way floor standing (like yamaha ns5000) It can be very expensive and even the best passive crossover is a big compromise to me for sound especially for power and dynamics . The best way to listen to music is active speakers where the amps the crossovers and the drivers and cabinets are all a single equation for the designer. In fully integrated active speakers you're not filtering gobs of much higher power low Z signals like you are in a passive crossover, you're not dealing directly with the inductive impedances (needing zoble nets of more Ls and Cs to equalize the impdance of the woofers huge inductance) of big woofers. Each driver in an active setup sees the direct attachment to the amps output stage transistors w/o the Cs and Ls in passive between. In an active environment you do ALL the xover implement at low levels tween the pre and power amps using compnents that are are MUCH cheaper to get the best quality. you're essentially filtering voltages not gobs of power (as in passive) or rather minuscule amounts of power. And when you split the amps up into three separate amps and each ones optimized and handles the power for just that section it opens the thing up drastically and amazingly. Also active speakers can be cheaper if you go look now at all the active monitors for recording I know a lot of people think those are too neutral and flat for audio file tastes but I always thought well what they're saying is I don't like the fact they're uncolored. To me speakers with passive crossovers in them are a definite compromise, they're like the minor leagues in baseball when you're ready to go to the show - the major leagues - you go to active. For obvious reasons sound reinforcements uses pure active multi amping systems for 40 years, those aren't designed for ultra high fidelity they're designed for clarity and power, very high efficiency and running full blast for long periods of time. but if you use audiophile design principles for active (i currently use ATC 25mkII with each having its on focal sub6 for left right which is essentially equal to an ATC SCM100 active floor speaker) you can get ear popping clarity and dynamics - amazing results from active speakers. Again i think cost wise if you consider the amp and the cost of a good speaker and a great passive xover - a good active system can actually be cheaper you just can't switch out the amps which means for high end audio it's a no go for marketing. You see how that works amigo??? Danny - technically - You know yer stuff - you are 50% techincal / objective, and 50% subjective / pure opinion. That makes you twice as objective in my mind as almost all the other review mix of useful and noise that exists in this new era of youtube 'audiophiles'. I really wish that word not be more negative connotation / derogatory these days, rather than a label of objective understanding as it was in the past..... I know, I know old school (and at least as much new school) guy crapping about new gens.... lol :) Anyway enough of my rambling keep up the good work my friend!
I'm a fan of Andrew Robinson and watched that particular video, and I have to say he's wrong. I'm an electronic engineer by trade and someone who loves audio. It really matters to me the quality of the crossover and the impact it can have. Speakers that have high-quality crossover parts are unfortunately overpriced, so upgrades can be an affordable route without the financial impact.
@@zizendorfBetter sound. Better clarity. Vocals are easier to understand. Details which get masked by cheap parts become more prevalent. My first crossover upgrade was shocking with how much information was being muted by the cheap parts.
@@ChadHuisinga That’s certainly another option. Everyone who sends their speakers to Danny are either curious or have speakers they aren’t happy with. I doubt many are buying new speakers with the intention of upgrading them. I’m sure some have. I almost did it to a pair of Sony SSCS5s. I started upgrading crossover parts over a decade ago. I did one out of a pair of speakers so I could compare stock to upgraded. It was no contest. The stock speaker was noticeably duller and muted details. Cost of the upgrade was less than $200. This was on a $400 pair of Polk speakers. I did it to multiple brands of used speakers. Every time the stock crossovers did the same thing. Brand name speakers are always sold at a price point. The cost of the parts to a speaker is roughly 20%. Since most people aren’t even aware of crossover circuitry they are blissfully unaware of what they are missing. But if you like your speakers as they are then good for you! You don’t need GR Research.
@@zizendorfThat's not what he was talking about. He was comparing an "over-priced" speaker with a high quality crossover with a more budget friendly speaker that is upgraded with higher quality components.
Very gracious Danny, parts matter, and I absolutely care what's on the inside, and the info you have given us over the years is very much appreciated, thank you.
The alleged shill reviewers sound like timeshare salesmen Danny went through his bona fides recently and yet he has to address the alleged shill reviewers One reason I build my own speakers is that the mark-up is insane and you generally get crap parts Ignore the shill reviewers
Dear Danny, I have so much respect for what you do, your dedication to improve the hifi industry, your depth of knowledge and experience that you openly share, and the time and effort you put into doing so. Since subscribing to your channel a few years ago I have learnt so much, for which I'm eternally grateful. I have yet to read any of the 904 comments already left before I started composing this one, but have no doubt they'll be along the same vein as this. Also I think you handled this with sheer character, absolute class, and dignity. Music feeds my soul. Thank you
Excellent explanation of how parts effect sound. I built a pair of your Brutes with the high end options. I could not find a speaker anywhere that performs as well for the price. I have built several pairs of speakers including Open Baffles, which are my favorite. Parts do matter! Facts are often difficult for people today, Danny you need to put more feeling into your reviews so the wannabe's can understand what your offering. Andrew is clearly a very sensitive man, he needs a hug.
This was very interesting, thank you for taking the time to explain and for not doing one of these emotionally driven response videos. Calm, mature and informative. This process makes me appreciate Audio Note. They don’t like to advertise price because you can buy the same speaker model with varying degree of internal parts and wiring. Two sets of speaker might look identical but vastly different in price.
Andrew Robinson's point seems to be that upgrading a speaker's crossover may not always offer the best value. After purchasing speakers and then investing in crossover upgrades, you may have spent enough money that it would have been better to invest in a higher-quality speaker from the start, avoiding the additional work and hassle. While DIY speaker projects can be enjoyable and are a valid hobby, for the average person who may not want to invest the time and effort, their money could be better spent elsewhere. Although crossover upgrades can make a difference in sound quality, the improvement doesn't always justify the cost. Spending significant money on upgrades may only result in a marginal improvement, without addressing the inherent limitations of the speaker's design. True innovation in speaker performance comes from a ground-up approach that considers the entire design, not just the crossover. Ultimately, how a speaker measures in performance is often more important than individual component selections when it comes to how it will sound. This isn't meant to criticize anyone's choices but simply reflects a personal opinion. Cheers!
This opinion added some fog and haze to the concept. Let me tell you , even my car stereos tweeter sounds way better when I replaced factory tiny electrolyte 6.8uf for a 6usd worth audio poly cap .... Difference is significant to a trained ear , not to mention , resistors that also make a difference, than inductors , internal wiring , cabinet enhancements, binding posts upgrade and all of it improves the sound . So cheap speaker sold for 200usd can be greatly improved by spending 70usd for better caps and resistors, coils , just pick wisely to stay in this tight budget and YES it will make these 70 USD speakers sound much much better and well worth 70usd spend on better quality parts . Than if you approach 600usd speakers and say you decide to spend 140usd on parts to upgrade the crossovers the difference on such speaker will be even greater ... Proportions and logic in such upgrade is a key for it to make sense .
"Ultimately, how a speaker measures in performance is often more important than individual component selections when it comes to how it will sound." I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't see how you can come to that conclusion. I can give you the specs to a speaker and you can't tell me how its going to sound. Let me give you a real example of what I'm talking about. I'm very sensitive to high frequencies. You can have a metal tweeter and a soft dome tweeter that measures very close, if not the same, and can sound very different in actual use. Measurements are not going to tell you that.
@@052RC I appreciate your perspective, and I agree that measurements alone can't fully capture the subjective experience of listening to a speaker. What I meant by "how a speaker measures far exceeds parts selections" is that while individual components, like tweeters, do contribute to the overall sound, the performance of the entire speaker system - as indicated by how it measures across various parameters - often provides a better indication of its overall quality and design than simply focusing on component selection in isolation. To your point, measurements might not always reveal specific nuances such as listener sensitivity to certain frequencies or tonal preferences. However, they do provide a more objective baseline for comparing performance and understanding how the speaker was engineered. So, while measurements may not tell the whole story, they are a key part of understanding speaker performance when considered alongside subjective listening tests. I fully acknowledge that sound is a subjective experience and can vary significantly from person to person. For example, as you pointed out, two tweeters that measure similarly might sound quite different to someone sensitive to high frequencies. While measurements offer an objective baseline for performance, they can’t account for personal preferences or sensitivities. It's definitely a balance between objective data and personal listening experience. Thanks again for engaging in the discussion!
@@kdomster9141 Thank you for your input. I completely understand the perspective you're coming from, and I don’t doubt that upgrading components like capacitors, resistors, and inductors can improve the sound of a speaker, particularly for someone with a trained ear. However, my point was more about the broader balance between cost, time, and the overall design of the speaker itself. You’re right that a budget speaker can be improved with better components, but there are inherent limitations in what can be achieved due to the overall design of the speaker. Cabinet design, driver quality, and tuning play a significant role in a speaker’s performance, and those factors often can't be fully addressed by just upgrading the crossover. While spending $70 on upgrades may improve a $200 speaker, it’s important to recognize that the improvements may be marginal when compared to purchasing a speaker that was designed from the ground up with higher-quality components, cabinetry, and tuning. There’s also the consideration of diminishing returns. As you mentioned, the difference might be more significant in a $600 speaker, but there comes a point where the cost of upgrading components may not deliver improvements that justify the expense. High-end speakers are typically designed with a balanced integration of all parts, not just components, so modifying one area might yield subtle changes, but won't necessarily unlock the full potential of the speaker. Ultimately, upgrading components can provide an enjoyable DIY project and can yield improvements, but I believe there's a balance between those upgrades and recognizing the limits imposed by the original design. It’s also worth considering whether the time and effort involved in such upgrades would be better invested in purchasing a speaker that already achieves the desired performance out of the box.
@@hoosierhifi5183 well, it is half truth, some 600usd speakers will use much better quality components that other 600usd speaker , proportional upgrade to 600usd speaker with 200usd of parts upgrade will vary with result of the upgrade as some 600usd speakers use a tweeter costing 15usd and sounding like it while some 600usd speakers will use much better quality tweeter costing 40usd but sounding better than some 90usd tweeters from some 3000usd speakers . My point is you can't assume as all speakers and upgrades a open book approach where you need to do intelligent analysis of what is worth to upgrade and how much to spend on what area of the speaker . Biggest point is when done wisely crossover and cabinet/posts/stands will make the speakers sound much cleaner and if they did cost much more than initial price spend on the speaker and upgrade .... Go for it and have fun observing the changes and make assessment used in your next projects . Yes even 10000usd speakers with stock crossover parts worth say 300usd can be upgraded to better quality and it will sound better , much better as drivers , cabinet, posts are all much better quality than in 600usd speaker so more expensive speaker makes more sense to upgrade. Example , Magico floor standers sold for 11000usd use Mundorf Caps worth 60usd (I know their sound and there is a ton of room for improvement with better Cap. So let's not smear the fact that upgrades almost always make sense if you care about sound quality .
Very well spoken , part quality does make a huge difference. And I'm Glad you extended an invitation to Andrew. I follow both channels and I respect both of your guys knowledge.
Very classy response Danny you just showed how much of a gentleman you are. I was watching the whole time thinking invite Andrew invite Andrew….and bam! 👍🏻
The guts ARE important. The high end audio industry is NOTORIOUS for not only snake oil but "reviews" that often feel like paid ads. Manufacturers have privately admitted that when they set HIGHER prices, their products are perceived as better by the high end industry in general. The budget of a product allocated to cosmetics alone can be a significant chunk of the selling price.
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt Well you can call bullshit all you want. I didn't come here for an argument. However, I did research for a year and then searched for an Audi A6 Avant. Found one, based upon 0-60. Bought it and didn't give two shits that it was silver. But, you're right, it does have a leather interior. They all do. I'd have purchased it regardless of it's color. LOL
@zizendorf Ok…but if you have two different pairs of speakers that sound identical…and one looks better to you than the other….which pair are you going to go with? Can you really say looks aren’t important at all?
Built (from scratch) and updated plenty of "high end" speakers. Crossover parts do make a difference. But there's always cost benefit factor and point of diminishing returns as with all speakers and audio. The human ear is so personal. But love what GR does. I'll keep watching ya. Keep it up
Danny, you're such a good guy! Thanks for the video. Upgrading to higher quality components in an audio circuit definitely improves the sound, ESPECIALLY capacitors. No question about it.
@tysonn4736 He was simply saying that as long as the speaker performs as intended. It doesn't matter the parts used. You know, about 45 years ago, this wasn't even a topic of conversation. The JBL100 is one of the most popular speakers in history. Not once during its heyday did anyone ask about crossover parts quality! I wonder why in recent history suddenly it's an important matter?
@@anthonyjackson7097 yes because we had no way to measure all those things back then!!! he was skewering gr's business model and all of the good they do for customers .
I appreciate you, I love knowing what I played for and if I was taken advantage of by a manufacture, I have the Polk L600, L800, L200 and L100 thank you for shining light on the Shadiness.
@@jwilson086 yup...ego pride pompous arrogant all knowing and yet admits his limitations of understanding, that pretty much sums up everyone born in 1980 to present. Lol.
There is an objective measurement of capacitor quality: ESR -- Effective Series Resistance. But, there will still be a small difference between those with the same ESR. The lower the ESR the better because ESR forms a low pass filter.
I thoroughly enjoyed this video, very classy and informative. I sincerely hope that Andrew reciprocates positively for the growth of his channel and for himself.
This may get some people riled up. While I think Andrew could have been less condescending with his feelings towards the speaker modding/upgrading community, i very much understand his point. He doesn't review DIY/modded equipment. His reviews have to be based on what he receives from a manufacturer or retail store. It truly doesn't matter what parts are in the product. If it's good, he explains why. If it's not, he explains why. If it's really bad, he doesn't post a review. His channel has never been about telling viewers to buy something, take it to someone else to fix problems with it, then take it home and enjoy it. I guarantee that, as long as he's been in the HIFI world, he understands what crossover parts do to a signal. It's just that, for the purpose of what he and Kristie do with their channel, they don't matter. If you don't like the way a speaker sounds from the factory, don't buy it. Definitely don't buy expecting Danny to be able to work miracles and make it sound like something that would cost you $3-4K more than what you paid. Just buy one of Danny's kits and get the good stuff the first time. Much as I don't come to Danny's channel for info on how well a particular pair of Paradigm towers might blend in with the decor of my living room, i don't go to Andrew's channel for detailed technical analysis of how they perform. I watch Andrew and Kristie to get info about it would be to live with a particular product as it comes from the manufacturer.
Danny, you burst my bubble! I thought that I was the only one placing components on the positive and negative side. I feel somewhat inspired to make a crossover using a buffalo nickel as the base and using cheddar core inductors with twine insulated wires, and a gum wrapper to conseal the contents. Definitely a Mickey mouse job!
About your product i buy norez end tube conectors from you because i live in belgium end the shiping price end doane is not cheap but the difrent betwen befor end after is huge is what Danny said clean basse end more clarity i´m very happy end i recomand to all my frends thank you GR research
Great video, I’d love our customers to better understand that dynamic range, transient response, phase coherence, great parts, really well designed drivers cabinets/ enclosures are just as important as measurements and frequency response. Keep up the great work.
Better parts better performance that goes for everything that's made in this world there's always something better and upgrade that will make it better sound better drive better whatever it is it will be better. Why do people understand that butter parts and everything else in this world makes it better except for better parts on a speaker. They should look at the ultra-high end and the really high-end components inside those speakers and there's nothing like these cheap speakers why are they using them because they're better and that's why they sound so good!
i think you and Andrew are on more of the same level than you both think. the niche market he's referring to is the speaker "hot-rodders" like yourself. nothing wrong with it, just not for everyone
I greatly appreciate your knowledge and your style. I have learned so much from you. And this is why I will be buying your gear. I just have to decide which of your speakers will work best in my space. I recently exchanged emails with Hobbs and will be giving you a call real soon. Gordon in SF
Danny you should make a test set on encores and use cheap crossover parts send it to Jay. He would be a good guy to do a fair comparison . Do a downgrade to prove your point.
My GR-Research crossover upgrades were my first introduction to how speakers should really sound and led me down the right path in my audio journey which has brought me many hours of enjoyment. In my opinion after experiencing the upgrade experience myself, anyone who thinks negatively about it doesn't know what they are talking about or are biased for some financial or other self interest.
I think you missed his point and made his point at the same time. Here’s an analogy. He’s saying buy the car you like and if you don’t like it trade it in for one you do. Your saying buy a car if you don’t like it puts new rims, wrap it, put a turbo on it and so on. It just different preferences.
I would urge everyone to buy an older vehicle and fix it up. Less in the landfill and will likely last longer than a car made these days. I own a ‘89 190e and it will go to my kid
I bought kits for my Klipsch RF7 iiis and 600m IIs and RP0504C (center) and couldn't be happier. There IS a massive sounds difference to speakers that were already good and are now amazing.
I get where AR is coming from. Not everyone is “chasing a value”. Some people just buy a product and can be perfectly happy with it. Yes, you can nitpick and see where the manufacturer cut corners or where they saved a few bucks by skimping, but if you’re happy with what you paid for, who’s position is it to judge? There’s always those that go to a fancy steak house and drop $120 for a nice grass fed prime grade porterhouse and be satisfied. You will find just as many that would complain and say, “That restaurant sources it food supply from Sysco. There’s no way that streak dinner should have been $120” it’s all individual perspective in the end. A speaker manufacturer can use better parts for sure, but there’s a reason why many brands do the upgrade by providing an upgraded model. For example B&W 705 S3 vs, 705 S3 signature or Sonus Faber with their Amator editions, Triangle with the Anniversary editions. In the end, if a speaker sounds good to my ears, and I’m willing to pay $$$$ for them, I’d be okay knowing not everything is top shelf component wise. If I want better, or not satisfied, I’d get the upgraded model or one model up. Easy peasy. 😂
One of the most sensible posts here. It’s just about what you’re after, is all. Some people just want to buy a speaker, be happy with it and be done. That’s Andrew. Then you got people like myself and Danny who want to eke out every drop of performance and are willing to dive deep into the details to achieving that. People have preferences and choices, why are we arguing?
@@azar3006 Wouldn’t that be illegal? That would be false advertising would it not? Consumer protections and BBB wouldn’t allow a product to be repackaged and rebranded as an “improvement” or “upgrade” version of a precious product if you’re simply just repackaging the old product. That makes zero sense. The up grades can be very minor, but they are still upgrades nonetheless. Better binding post, better finish, and in the B&W’s case, an upgraded crossover. The Sonus Faber Lumina Amator is the same, they redid the finish and reworked the crossover. Too imply any company would rebadge a product as “improved or upgraded” while simply rebranding it without any improvements is insane and would get you fined or taken to court in a class action case.
Your logic is flawed though. Manufacturers skimp on crossover parts because you don't see it, it's hidden. You won't find many $10,000 speakers with vinyl wrap because it's in plain view and buyers expect wood veneer. BTW grassfed is not better and in blind taste tests by chefs, they all disliked the taste of grassfed meat.
Andrew & Kristi.... I love your reviews. I get what you're doing and why. No issues with it at all. BUT..... There's a lot of validity to what Danny is saying. I realize your not engineers and just want results and caring how the results happen isn't important. I get that we live in a world of buy good or buy better. Not picking a side, because Danny knows I'm brutally honest. Danny.... something you didn't mention. The expense to upgrade a speakers crossover isn't always going to provide enough "leveling up" to warrant the cost. The gain can be fractional on some speakers and simply isn't worth it.. Some speaker can really use an upgrade, but not all and not all are worth the investment.
@@dannyrichie9743 But that's subjective. I gave this video a thumbs up and never have done that for any of your videos. Why? It's a good explanation as to why better parts create better sounds.... in most cases. ;) Do a video on driver speed and how controlling that speed is important to sound. As a matter of fact, do a video series on speakers from A to Z, meaning cover design, driver selection, crossover builds, etc. etc. I think it would be good for the audience to understand a bit of the engineering, kind like you did in his video.
@@lithiumstaticHow can it be subjective when Danny clearly explains the speaker charts, frequency curve and waterfall ? and plus he has the experience to decide if certain upgrades are not worth it !
If you’re happy with your speakers stick with them and don’t worry about upgrades. If you want more or are interested in exploring, the upgrades are for you. I personally enjoy the educational aspect of upgrades. Like a lot of things it doesn’t have to be one or the other. Different strokes for different folks.
.......also.... if your average £600 class leading stand mount speaker had a decent crossover it would be nearly double the price .... I have taken apart dozens of so called hi end speakers to find £12 worth of crossover components, most crossovers I have upgraded have cost hundreds, but transform the sound. The manufacturers just cant afford to put in decent parts unless you are paying very big money indeed. So Andrew, sorry on this one you are WRONG... Danny, as with other experts in his field ,understand that if you are prepared to spend the money you can make HUGE improvements.
Uhh wrong. Often the crossover doesn't even cost a dollar to the manufacturer and this on a $4000 speaker. The manufacturer could easily add $200 in crossover parts at their cost to greatly improve the speaker. No one refuses to buy say a $5200 speaker over a $5000. People feel better on their purchase if they know what they don't see on the inside is of decent quality.
Crossovers are the weakest point on any speaker that are build for price point what ever is the price point, period. I upgraded my speakers crossovers with better components and it was BIG upgrade! All those cheap sandcast resistors, electrolytic capacitors and iron core coils removed with better parts was game chancer!
Many thanks for this video. I have been doing this to my speakers and HiFi since the late 1970's. I upgraded the crossover for my 1971 KEF Chorale speakers. I used the Falcon Acoustics ( Malcolm Jones ex KEF designer ) upgraded x over. I mounted the x over out side the speaker and this made such an improvement that i have been doing this sort of thing ever since. I am amazed how many expensive Speakers use ordinary components and cable in their speakers, yet the manufacturer makes great claims for the quality of the components . Yet i look at those components and i know the prices and can add up the cost and go CHRAPSKATE. I design and build my own speakers and they sound really very good compared to many commercial products . This annoys me as i am a hobbyist with some basic knowledge . So again thanks for this video. ps i am about to upgrade the x overs in my ACR Eckhorn corner horns. Specifically the resistors. I hope to use Dulunds . I have already upgraded the capacitors and inductors and the cables in the xovers and cabinets. So should be a fun job
Not suprising that Andrew and his wife would not understand that the crossovers are more important than the drive units... I can tell you from many years of experience, you can get very good results with high quality crossover components and cheap drive units, it does not work the other way round...... high quality drive units will reveal the massive improvements crossover components can make.
I find them quite entertainig. High quality videos and he's showing products at their best. Can't find anything wrong with it when someone is interested in new gear and wants some information about it. He's making comparisons to other speakers, Amps or whatever they review. Who likes to read brochures when someone does it better for you in a video!?
He's got a point .Don't like your speakers get a new pair - There's zillions out on the market Now if you like your speakers, and you can take them to another level then upgrades makes sense .Makes even more $ sense on older top model hi end speakers and are still great or used speakers that were purchased at a heavily discounted price leaving the buyer extra 🍞for potential upgrades - ultimately you do have to first like the speakers you own
So much to say here! Fantastic video, I hope it goes somewhere with Andrew and Kristi. I really think they need to keep a more open mind in this area. Even if they were neutral on the subject they shouldn’t bash us that apreatiate it. Kristi kinda had a go at me in the comments section of there last video and I was disappointed, because I respect them and watch all there videos. I challenged them to upgrade the crossovers on a pair of there speakers to see the benefits for themselves. There white Klipsh would be perfect for this however I do not expect this to happen. 🤞🏼. I honestly feel sorry for people who don’t understand or trust Danny and GR Research. We as hobbiest are extremely lucky to have him mentoring our way. Crossover upgrades arnt for everyone. But man it’s sure fun knowing you have good parts in there making the speaker the best version of its self!
... their minds have been open for a long time... open to being paid for "facts", open to birds picking away their brains... open to anyone who will agree with their narrow views.
Danny is right about Andrew. I did upgraded two pairs of tower speakers of KLIPSCH on my own before I knew about GR Research and those speakers turned out so much better than original parts
Hello GR Reasearch: Thank you for this video sir. What I admire about you and your company is that you don't have a hidden adjenda like other tube channels. I've been an audio enthusiast since I was young & you have educated me in many areas that when I walk into a person's home & hear some of this audio crap that is actually painful to listen to. God Bless & stay safe, TMP from N.J.
As usual daddy just put yourself out there as a true human being. I wish I had to resources time and money to buy your stuff and I’ll plan on saving up for some of your speakers but just you as a human being putting it out there from your heart is well worth my time to watch your videos. Keep it up, sir. You’re doing it’s all a good servicelearned a lot
I admire both Danny and Andrew. I think it’ll be educational for Andrew to visit GR and bring his reviewer expertise to Danny. In this wonderful hobby one can always learn.💎💎
I have pair of Timekeeper 2’s from Tyler Acousics designed by Danny. I hear new things in music I have been listening to for 50 years!! Amazing sound & detail. Danny is the real deal!!
I may be wrong but I think most of you are missing the point. I don’t think he’s saying that good components don’t matter. He’s saying why spend money on something to turn around and “Fix” it. Just buy a better quality speaker instead.
I can understand why he might think that, however, it reality that is not at the case. That next bigger or more expensive model has the same budget level cheesy parts most of the time. Then you are faced with the same thing. You just have an even more expensive speaker that needs help too.
The industry standard markup is about 5x the bill of material costs. Imagine you start with a $1000 speaker, that speaker has about $200 in parts. If you bought a $2k speaker to get something better, that better speaker only spent an extra $200 in parts.
Problem is, those higher quality (more expensive) are using cheese also. Manufacturers, for the most part, don’t care. Because most people don’t care. As Danny said. You can’t know what your missing if your not exposed to it. I’m only saying this from personal experience. I grew up in an audiophile family. Thought I knew my s-it. Then I experienced a 80,000 dollar system. What more can I say.
You are super respectful!!! Love what you do and agree 100%!!
I'm so glad that you made this video. I'll be putting together a system in a few months. You are now my #1 choice of speaker manufacturer. I think you really clarified some misconceptions. Thank you!
Danny, I love your hospitality and It makes you one of my favorite people on the internet.
Have been listening to stereo components for over 60 years and gr research seems to be one of the most thoughtful commentators I have ever listened to online. I knew someone back in Boulder Colorado in 40 years ago whose whole business is just a little home business was to replace the crossovers with more high quality parts to improve reasonably good stereo speakers. So this guy makes sense... And his presentations are always balanced and thoughtful.
Was that Uncle Joey?
Spoken like a true gentleman. Proud to have you as a role model.
Great response/review. I love where you ultimately went with the invite for Andrew. I can personally confirm the validity of a speaker upgrade I have used. I found some Polk S20s on absolute blowout clearance. They are just on my desk in an untreated office. I thought they were dull and loose with the sound where I had to push them to show any kind of performance. I figured I like doing soldering and stuff like that so I ordered an upgrade kit and some no-rez. BOOM! At real low volumes, the sound stage was immediately full of detail as the speakers just disappeared. They voice extremely well and go way beyond any review of a stock S20. I'm sold on the work you do. I love Andrew's videos as well & would really like to see you guys get together and break bread. It would make for a fun video and probably be good for both of your channels. THANKS DANNY!
Andrew said that he doesn't think it makes sense to buy speakers that need to be improved later, but it makes more sense to buy speakers that you like right from the start. And what does it matter what's inside the speakers if you like how they sound? Then everything will be fine. If you like speakers in which the manufacturer has used cheap parts, that's your problem.

That's true. Some people are okay with just okay. Some people want more.
Some people don't know when to stop either. Some people are never satisfied and never sit down and just enjoy the music. I see people "upgrading" all the time and never going to be happy. Most people are just splitting hairs when it comes to what's coming out of their system and feel they need to "UPGREADE". If that's what you like more power to you. I'll just sit back and enjoy life and music...
Why is it a problem?
What if you like the speakers when you buy them but over time notice some things that could be improved?
@@danab7472 like what? Just asking
Brilliantly measured and eloquent response to that thinly veiled attack from Robinson. Keep up the good work Danny, informing those of us that like to get informed as well as being open to discussion and never dogmatic. Oh and you're always a gentleman.
We should be concerned about what’s inside. It can reveal what the consumer is actually paying for. It’s not for everyone but for some it does matter.
I had one guy tell me his $14 earbuds sound better than most $4000 speaker systems. And I had another idiot tell me that the specs on his computer's CD player says "0 to 50,000 Hz", therefore all music he listens to through his computer is 0 to 50KHz. And there was no convincing him otherwise.
So you are right.... there really are people who should never, ever, ever see the inside of anything.
And the really mind blowing part is, both were arguing with me on the discussion page of the wikipedia entry for "audiophile".
Absolutely!
But as Danny always says, all the manufacturer build to a pricepoint. And more people like shiny stuff than a black box with great parts inside you cannot see. So they spend money on design and build of a nice shiny box. Parts don't bring customers, high gloss videos about nice speakers do ;-)
💯 correct.
If the parts are spectacular and of immaculate standards and it is not voiced correctly it doesn’t matter. Andrew’s whole point is how does it sound stop taking everything apart and just listen to the music and enjoy. If it doesn’t sound good return it and try something new. Stop trying to fix something not designed correctly in the first place.
BRAVO, DANNY!!! Great info, clearly spoken, wonderfully impartial. Thank you Bro.
A well designed crossover makes ALL the difference.
I spent months learning from people and learned how to do quasi anechoic measurements of my speakers.
Then I redesigned the crossovers. After a few iterations I made a crossover that is phase coherent and quite linear. Whereas before it had a dip around 2.3khz and wasn’t phase coherent at the crossover.
I used premium parts to make the crossovers and it was kinda like getting new speakers.
Yeah it made them sound much better.
I did swap out crossover parts in real time and think I can hear a difference. ( the crossover is external so I was able to swap different parts with the same values ). I did hear some differences between air core inductors vs iron core. Don’t know so much about the caps though.
So although I dig Andrew, yes it does matter how the crossover is designed and implemented
And besides as you mentioned. It was super fun and educational. Even at 55 I love learning this stuff. It’s most of the fun actually for me.
Crossovers and associated compensation circuits do make a large difference however soft dome mid-range and tweeters will always sound different than cone mid-range and compression tweeters.
Difference is, some people listen with their ears, others listen with their eyes.
EXACTLY... We are dealing with AUDIO, and make quality decisions on what we see (cosmetics)... Imagine, going to buy a fine painting for your living room, and instead of looking at it, you make your decisions based on licking it....Would you do that???
@@grahamstrahle4010 and others listen with computers, if everything in this world was perfect, which is an impossibility, the world would be a boring place.
Danny is also talking to folks with disposable income. The kind that can have it to spend 10k for what's considered a mid level amplifier or those where money doesn't matter at all and perfection does. Man I just ain't got that kinda of money, further, one person's trash is another person's treasure, just ask anyone who's ever been divorced and remarried another divorcee and had been happily married for 20 years.
Trust your ears, if it sounds good to you than it sounds good, if it sounds great then it sounds great, to you. It might not to me even after putting Danny's expensive crossovers in speakers that already cost way to much money. Power to y'all, I'm glad if you got that kinda of disposable income, I for one do not and it's my hard earned money, I'm gonna buy what sounds great to my ears, if they don't after I get them home and have broken them in they go back to where that came from and the search continues. I'm not going to void the warranty only to find out after broken in they don't sound good "to my ears"!!
Recently I completed the Dennis Murphy Mod for my Pioneer SP-BS22 bookshelf speakers. I can say there absolutely was a great improvement in sound. The sound stage is now more expansive and deep with a smoother high end. I learned from practical hard proof: Crossovers matter. The original speakers were quite nice for the price but the upgrade took them to a new level.
Fun! Enjoy them, I did. It's too bad the BS22 is not made anymore.
"People making budget speakers put in 10 cent parts. I spend $1 and that makes a big difference." --A.J.
😊
I've done gr-research upgrades to rp8000f and lrs+ speakers, and they're both phenomenal.
I have RP280F's. Thinking about it myself.
@photoguybrian definitely worth it
Do you think Henry kloss tower 2 speakers or the ads L780/2 speakers would be worth the upgrade or upgrade the speakers all the way around?
@johnnewcomb5162 Yes, they're worth it.
I like your video's and find them informative and entertaining. No product is perfect and there is always room for improvement. I bought a fairly expensive pair of speakers ($2000) and discovered later that the bracing in the cabinet was not really that good. I didn't notice the issue until later when I played them at a really loud volume level. The next model of that speaker addressed that issue. Not everyone can afford to buy a new pair of speakers every couple of years. I worked a short time in the Audio Industry, and later I calibrated measuring instruments. I recognize that you are providing a valuable service to your customers and viewers.
I follow and enjoy both the AR and GR channels. When I saw the original AR video, I anticipated this response from GR. Personally, I took AR's "don't care" comments in a different context. He's using the "black box" reviewing technique, in that whatever he can't hear or see from the outside is irrelevant. He's "blind testing" things such as the crossover components, dampening material, bracing and binding post material, which aren't visible to him. He can't control the decisions made by the designer and therefore "doesn't care" how the designer got to the end result, only how it fares against the direct competition with its outward characteristics (i.e. sound, aesthetics, construction). Ultimately, he's judging it by the same characteristics as the typical end consumer. I'm sure he appreciates (and can likely hear) the benefits of better crossover components, non-magnetic binding posts, etc. but he also realizes the cost concessions required at certain price points and trade-offs to be made. Perhaps, instead of saying "doesn't care", a more accurate statement would be "I don't want to know". He's relying on his senses for the review and doesn't want to influenced by the brand name on some crossover component.
Well, great video, I do realize that Danny and Andrew is doing two entirely different work in the same industry, Best example I could quote that Andrew is a car salesman and Danny is the an upgrade mechanic.
Companies do use cheaper parts which are invisible to customer hidden inside, and spend more over design and marketing for better sales or bring their product market competitive to other products.
Its a very mature talk by Danny, I understand as having decades of experience with audio and hope these videos educate younger generation as well to choose better product or know how to upgrade and save thousands $$ buying expensive stuff.
Class act Danny.
Not really. Andrew & Kristi didn't say GR Research or even make that suggestion as there are many DIY folks. Therefore this public direct call out by Danny man is a bit much. An email or phone call to Andrew & Kristi would've been MUCH more appropriate and professional. A direct call out isn't a good way to win someone over or send an invite for a visit. What I see is Danny using a call out to gain attention of Andrew & Kristi's audience to boost sales. Really Danny? Really??? Not only am I embarrassed, I'm embarrassed for you.
@@lithiumstatic I see Danny putting the truth out on how parts matter, and when Andrew said 'who cares what's on the inside', I thought that was quite ill informed, to put it mildly. We shall see what Andrew is made of by how he responds.
Hello folks. I feel Andrew has a bit of narcissist behavior.
This is the second time or same type of reply as the first time. Calling out all reviewers. Now those who did visit Danny's they walk out going home. With brand new perspective.
Ride Easy
@@BootJamesOut Funny you would call Andrew a narcissist when he never pointed out anyone in specific. Who's publicly calling out who??? Danny. I won't drop him a label, but you can figure it out if you're able to be unbiased. Last don't mistake confidence for narcissism which you're clearly doing.
@@pounceonyou1958 He responded live with humility and apologetically. Something Danny would never do even though he's the one making public finger pointing call outs. Looks much more like he's using it to draw customers from Andrews channel. Really sad to see that kind of behavior. Also really sad to see biased folks patting Danny on the back for being on online bully.
All I know is, I have speakers the manufacturers highly regarded ,once I tested the speakers , was quite disappointed and wanted to return them. I found out you had an upgrade kit for those speakers I bought and installed the upgrade kit , am I glad I did ,I can almost melt into the same music after the upgrade that I was disappointed before. I trust your work because the results is definite, stay unwavering some of us that know better got your back through your proven work, those that do not know ignorance is bliss
I don't see how anyone in their right mind could hold a grudge against GR Research. Danny's videos help everyone enjoy their speakers. He demonstrates where very inexpensive speakers and components can be quite good, and improved, and, yes, sometimes points out where an expensive speaker can easily be improved or fixed by using a $10.00 resistor instead of a $0.50 resistor. And, Danny almost always uses measurements to back up his opinions. I think watching Danny's videos can improve peoples enjoyment of very cheap speakers or their expensive speakers. This is a gift. Knowing the difference between good quality and bad quality is beneficial for any material thing we buy.
His kits are much more expensive than that....
Danny has the knowledge, skills and integrity all others do not care about . Danny loves to see his customers happy .
@@MasterofPlay7yes, a crossover consists of more than a single resistor. But smaller less expensive speakers tend to have more simple crossovers.
He also puts in the time to actually create a new crossover. It's not just about the parts. Called R&D@@MasterofPlay7
@@MasterofPlay7it's high quality parts he is hardly making any money on the kits.
I'am a hobbyist that was buying from Zalytron on long Island back in the day. I had "the books" and some software but learned that it was much better to send the drivers out to madisound, have them analyzed, and have the crossovers designed by people that really knew how to use LEAP. That being stated, It's obvious i got my feet pretty wet and the few people that are getting into this now, should really carefully watch, listen, and understand your vids. They are 100% accurate. If I was to do another build (which im not), I would send the drivers to GR, or Madisound! But it gets to the point where one would be better off simply buying a proven speaker other than wasting countless hours trying to re-invent the wheel! Edit: as far as your upgrades, it's a great idea and small investment for people that want to keep and upgrade their "vintage" speakers, or even "fix" the newer ones that they may own! Thank you for such great vids!!!
Audio is like the automotive industry. 99% of the folks out there buy a stereo system and they are done. Then there is that 1% that likes tweak what they have. They might use heavy gauge OFC wires. They might replace their op-amps with a higher grade chips. And some might tweak the crossover. Hot rodders have been tweaking cars for years.
Great point
That's exactly who Danny is. Racing the quarter mile is another of his passions. I can't see the video right now. But I think he's wearing a drag racing t-shirt.
I quit watching Andrew a couple years ago after he made a egotistical and disrespectful response to my fair comment😂
Excellent analogy. I've never left a car stock for more than a month, and once I got into diy and customized speakers, I'll never go back. It's crazy how much manufacturers leave on the table. Upgrading the crossover parts is like going from stock garbage shocks to some adjustable Koni shocks.
@@JC-lk3oy Maybe with exceptions as it is a T50 from Gordon Murray! But not all cars and equipment are at that level, possibly none, so I understand what you mean.
Humble honest and great points. I have been around “high end” hifi with my dad since the 70s. I’ve worked with some people who are very well known in the industry. This is not bs. I built a power supply and swapped caps for a year before I landed on the right filter caps. When it comes together it is amazing.
I believe Andrew once said that speakers don't break-in over time. I stepped back from him after hearing that opinion.
His videos are a bit too polished and I also stopped watching them. Quality of components in any product is important.
He never had a pair for over a week. Yeah, dudes is just a Shill. Dandy Andy shines alot of shoes and he gives em that hawk tuah shine
The world is full of intense ignorance, but through peace, there can be enlightenment in all things.
Another point is, ,in general, the higher end higher cost speakers tend to use better parts in the x-over, wiring, connectors etc.. Why would they do that if it made no differeince? PS audio speakers for instance. Nothing but high quality parts.
What a splendid video. I have watched your channel for some years now. In my opinion always interesting, honest, cautious and full of fine expertise. I love your work and I learned a lot. Thank you so much. Your answer to Andrew is very kind and understanding. Your authenticity is striking.
But still I doubt whether Andrew will understand. He seems so opniated about things he clearly does not understand and is not willing to understand. A pity really.
Compliments to you Gerry! You are the best. Many, many thanks for all your wisdom and kindness!
When you took off your glasses and zoomed in on the affiliate links…
Epic!
This was brilliant.
Nonsense and tiring. I think Danny is only click baiting for his channel anymore off of more successful and better produced channels.
@@ChadHuisinga It's pretty obvious that someone trying to sell you the product isn't going to highlight any flaws in it. They're literally incentivized to portray the product in a positive light regardless.
@@ChadHuisinga Danny got called out. How is he click baiting?
Epic indeed. Ouch!
You ROCK Danny!! I've learned far more from you than any other audio TH-camr. Anyone can plug in a speaker, listen and comment. You actually understand speaker design and have done more for the audio community than any of those other jokers. Building my own speakers was a really fun and rewarding project. Thank You!
You want more drama? 🎭 Please make upgrade kits for Tekton speakers 🔊
Yes!!
HA!!!! LMAO
@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics right?
LOL that would be more than drama.
LoL 😂
Phenomenal explanation and analysis. Thank you!
what few seem to realize is the absolute best parts come in almost no speakers regardless of price. many 'philes have a tough time wrapping their head around that concept.
Not true!
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt too funny. Its actually quite true. Take a look at Wilson, Rockport, Magico. They use good parts but far from great parts. Open a few up and have a look.
I really enjoy listening to your videos and agree with you. Parts matter. I bought a kit from George Short ,North Creek, and he tried to sell the best sounding capacitors, resisters, wire, and coils. In fact he wound coils which were used by many manufacturers. The speaker kit i purchased he pair matched every component and speaker. His 10 gauge coils were massive and really did sound better. His speakers kits were unmatched dollar for dollar than many of the best manufacturers at the time. I really wish I could have heard his ribbon speakers which were almost full range.
You're always criticised by those who do less never more. These companies pay very little into research & design & expect consumers to just such up the end product.
you did very little to spell check.
Soundstage/Imaging, a genuinely Holographic presentation is the single-most important factor in EVERY aspect of my audio equipment. Across the board. This is coming from someone who began selling high-end retail audio back in the 80s. I've had all of these years to determine what provides the most enjoyable experience (for me).
I stopped watching his channel a long time ago. If I had not, going out of his way to demonstrate ignorance about speaker design would have done the trick. 🤪
Andrew is a bit of a yes man.
Me too. I stopped following that channel also because I didn't like the 'smug' attitude that I detected on their channel. GR Research emphasise that a lot of speakers are obviously made to a price point, but if the speaker is well designed then GR Research are able to make your original purchase sound significantly better for a modest outlay and bit of DIY input - and who doesn't like a bit of DIY input!
Same..he went more gatekeeper elitist, so I dropped out.
I agree. I have changed X-over parts on multiple speakers and every time, it’s a noticeable improvement.
I don't bother watching any reviewer who does not at least look inside the box. If they're going to put in such low effort, then they're not worth my time.
The upgrade tech talks are the best bit. I've learned so much about speaker design from this channel. The keep it simple design philosophy in GR-Research really works. I understand the acoustic physics, but the hands on design / measure / iteration approach is the best.
When these things devolve into personal criticism they completely lose me.
I get both points of view.
For me, if the quality of the sound is (subjectively to me) is commensurate with the price, then we’re good.
DIY upgrades are a perfectly legitimate way to enjoy the hobby. OTOH, Expecting speakers to sound good with out upgrades is reasonable.
The $/sound ratio is what matters.
As someone whose solder joints look like used bubble gum, I need a decent sound from the factory.
You both have perfectly valid opinions. So let’s get back to the music.
Finally, a civilized comment without attacking any of the parties involved 👍❤
I like your practicality and common sense.
A couple of years a ago, I took my Jamo 7.2 speakers in to have my bass woofers repaired. My speakers were 20 years old at the time. The repair shop gave me the option to rebuild my crossovers. There was no need to redesign, just upgrade very old and very cheap components. WOW! What a difference. I spent close to $1000, but the difference was nothing short of amazing. I think Danny is providing a much needed service. It is a shame that speaker manufacturers go cheap on the crossover components, but they do. I am sure some of the improvement was because the components were old, but I know they never sounded this good even when new. By the way, the tweeters and midrange drivers were still in great shape and nothing was done to them.
Same as the guys I know that get car systems, they buy the same speakers ect. but one guy always changes crossover ect and doesn't use the all in one block that you can buy, he does it with little resistors ect and his stereo systems sound 3xs as good.
He is true, only sound matters to the customer. For 99%. The 1% would like to know. But the 99% is where the money comes so ask again who cares. Not me too. I do know the speakers i use sounds good. Iw had few, from genelec G5 to "the ones" to few Klipsh models to Jamo one to and so on. Triangle antal stays. For now :D You can upgrade the crossovers and what ever, that is like changing engines intakes and adding turbo to the car, its not for everyone, maybe to the 1%.
How you arrive at your percentages.
99 to 1? It could be 70 to 30.
Well done Danny..you are a true gentleman who takes pride on ‘making the world a better place’ . The love of music and sound for people is a big one. Who are you going to trust? An experienced sound technician and engineer like yourself or a salesman/ reviewer? Everyone will agree.
You can’t fake quality.
I find it fascinating that we are being told that you need a special room set up to listen to your speakers in the real world are a least in my world our entertainment is usually set up in our living area , everyone doesn't have the luxury of have a dedicated listen room
Watch the video again, he's specifically referring to reviewers, even goes out of his way to explain he's not talking about customers lol.
I like the way you've handled this. Additionally, thank you for the detailed explanation of how it all matters in pursuit of good sound!
If he does not care about what is in a speaker, he really should not be in the speaker review domain.
Credibility is built on deep understanding and a wide base of knowledge.
Anything else may be arrogance in its true meaning
Well said my friend!
Not that I disagree, but you don't really believe that the majority of speaker reviewers, in the history of speaker reviewers, were well versed in speaker design or even a novice at design for that matter.
That being said, I wouldn't be quick to dismiss any reviewers' experience at what they do. There's always going to be two kinds of audiophiles; those who only care about how a speaker sounds and those who only care how it measures. Both are valid. And both can be completely unrepresentative of how a speaker will sound in your environment and application.
But it's always going to be impractical for me to believe that I should not trust my ears when it comes to speakers, when they can be measured, but I should trust my ears when comes to audiophile esoterica, i.e. that which is not substantiated by measurements.
Wow. Real high standards there fella. I guess you only watch 4 review channels. But honestly, it’s not a big deal. It’s just Hifi. No wrongs or rights. Andrew is right because the vast majority of folks just buy a speaker, push it up against a wall and don’t care much about its crossover. A minority of specialized audiophiles will tear into a speaker and upgrade internals. And that’s ok too. But it’s a small number of folks.
The ears are important but it does not change the fact that when the parts are different , you should hear the difference. If you don’t, go and have a hearing test.
I could review a new car. I’m not a mechanic, but that doesn’t stop me appreciating the way the car performs!
Danny this is a great video! I love all of your stuff and all of your passion. I also love the fact that you repeatedly mentioned the fun of it. That's why I continue to do this as an avocation. I started doing speaker design professionally starting 50 (12 years old) years ago and got an electrical engineering degree and actually briefly worked for JBL for a time in the late 70s. I went into IT engineering because I can make more money lol. IT in the past 35 years has been as good a 'wild' and exciting geek ride as there has ever been - even more that audio stuff. But as you say for speakers and audio - just the fun of it and of course there's also once you're done with it you get to sit down and re listen to all your favorite reference material to see what you've achieved and what you've lost. And testing is very important too but it's only half the story. (that also why I am a foodie that worked in restaurants for 10 years) Testing is obviously very important in the design phase and a very valuable tool for that. If i had the software and compute power now back in the 70s Yikes - i may have decided to be a speaker designer!
Andrew Robinsons video - (I do feel obligated to say in ARs defense that he never mentioned Danny GR at all) If you're not interested in what's inside then you're not interested in what's inside fair enough sir! If so then just buy a better speaker, still considering dannys point that more cost does not necessarily get better parts/design, but it doesn't mean you need to poo poo people producing / consuming peeps that just_love _to play with this stuff and of course listen . AND Danny - when you say this or that makes a HUGE difference (where you sell and profit from this - kind of a conflict of interest at least a little?!? ;)) that is also just spending much more money on the original speaker investment - based on solely your opinion. You both fully know that statement is true!!!
(side note - stuff like cheap binding post that may break much more easily , and wire used in the xover - please dont give that praise as to MASSIVE differences in speaker sound - they almost never effect the end sound unless they are just defective) I really loose any / all patience to listen on voodoo analysis, both test and listening, and I have heard so many listening tests where the improvement effects of these 'things' , gold plated power cables, etc, etc,etc - gets completely busted .... as the people making the claims in these controlled AB tests - cannot tell the difference, they just use it as marketing to line thier coffers. OK no more soap box) .
As to you Danny on some of your claims - you do sometimes make claims that these more expensive caps , etc or binding posts (for example) sound more spacious or open - you must admit - that is purely a qualitative statement of opinion based solely on your listening tests (and others may agree with you but others dont) so keep that in mind - as a VERY large percentage of high and higher end than that - audio sound - is primarily subjective and or just marketing buzz. So I am saying we can all hear good to great sound reliably - beyond that it is pure opinion. I know this from 50+ years of doing this as a student, engineer, and listening to recorded / reproduced music on systems of every possible quality.
Now having said that - anything with a passive xover is a compromise........ :)
most quote "audiophiles" (i used to be but not really anymore - I just love great sound,, not talkin about it like it was really fine wine or cheese! :)) amazingly have no clue though that building speakers with a really high qaulity passive crossover is a VERY hard and VERY expensive experience. The xover can easily be the most expensive part of a high end 3way floor standing (like yamaha ns5000) It can be very expensive and even the best passive crossover is a big compromise to me for sound especially for power and dynamics . The best way to listen to music is active speakers where the amps the crossovers and the drivers and cabinets are all a single equation for the designer.
In fully integrated active speakers you're not filtering gobs of much higher power low Z signals like you are in a passive crossover, you're not dealing directly with the inductive impedances (needing zoble nets of more Ls and Cs to equalize the impdance of the woofers huge inductance) of big woofers. Each driver in an active setup sees the direct attachment to the amps output stage transistors w/o the Cs and Ls in passive between. In an active environment you do ALL the xover implement at low levels tween the pre and power amps using compnents that are are MUCH cheaper to get the best quality. you're essentially filtering voltages not gobs of power (as in passive) or rather minuscule amounts of power. And when you split the amps up into three separate amps and each ones optimized and handles the power for just that section it opens the thing up drastically and amazingly. Also active speakers can be cheaper if you go look now at all the active monitors for recording I know a lot of people think those are too neutral and flat for audio file tastes but I always thought well what they're saying is I don't like the fact they're uncolored. To me speakers with passive crossovers in them are a definite compromise, they're like the minor leagues in baseball when you're ready to go to the show - the major leagues - you go to active.
For obvious reasons sound reinforcements uses pure active multi amping systems for 40 years, those aren't designed for ultra high fidelity they're designed for clarity and power, very high efficiency and running full blast for long periods of time. but if you use audiophile design principles for active (i currently use ATC 25mkII with each having its on focal sub6 for left right which is essentially equal to an ATC SCM100 active floor speaker) you can get ear popping clarity and dynamics - amazing results from active speakers. Again i think cost wise if you consider the amp and the cost of a good speaker and a great passive xover - a good active system can actually be cheaper you just can't switch out the amps which means for high end audio it's a no go for marketing. You see how that works amigo???
Danny - technically - You know yer stuff - you are 50% techincal / objective, and 50% subjective / pure opinion. That makes you twice as objective in my mind as almost all the other review mix of useful and noise that exists in this new era of youtube 'audiophiles'. I really wish that word not be more negative connotation / derogatory these days, rather than a label of objective understanding as it was in the past..... I know, I know old school (and at least as much new school) guy crapping about new gens.... lol :) Anyway enough of my rambling keep up the good work my friend!
Thanks for the video, I'm still loving my X-statiks.
Beautifully explained sir..i appreciate an honest person.
I'm a fan of Andrew Robinson and watched that particular video, and I have to say he's wrong. I'm an electronic engineer by trade and someone who loves audio. It really matters to me the quality of the crossover and the impact it can have. Speakers that have high-quality crossover parts are unfortunately overpriced, so upgrades can be an affordable route without the financial impact.
@@robmccoy21 Why would one need to upgrade high quality crossovers? I don’t understand…
@@zizendorfBetter sound. Better clarity. Vocals are easier to understand. Details which get masked by cheap parts become more prevalent.
My first crossover upgrade was shocking with how much information was being muted by the cheap parts.
Why not just buy a different speaker?
@@ChadHuisinga That’s certainly another option. Everyone who sends their speakers to Danny are either curious or have speakers they aren’t happy with. I doubt many are buying new speakers with the intention of upgrading them. I’m sure some have. I almost did it to a pair of Sony SSCS5s.
I started upgrading crossover parts over a decade ago. I did one out of a pair of speakers so I could compare stock to upgraded. It was no contest. The stock speaker was noticeably duller and muted details. Cost of the upgrade was less than $200. This was on a $400 pair of Polk speakers. I did it to multiple brands of used speakers. Every time the stock crossovers did the same thing. Brand name speakers are always sold at a price point. The cost of the parts to a speaker is roughly 20%. Since most people aren’t even aware of crossover circuitry they are blissfully unaware of what they are missing.
But if you like your speakers as they are then good for you! You don’t need GR Research.
@@zizendorfThat's not what he was talking about. He was comparing an "over-priced" speaker with a high quality crossover with a more budget friendly speaker that is upgraded with higher quality components.
Very gracious Danny, parts matter, and I absolutely care what's on the inside, and the info you have given us over the years is very much appreciated, thank you.
The alleged shill reviewers sound like timeshare salesmen
Danny went through his bona fides recently and yet he has to address the alleged shill reviewers
One reason I build my own speakers is that the mark-up is insane and you generally get crap parts
Ignore the shill reviewers
Dear Danny, I have so much respect for what you do, your dedication to improve the hifi industry, your depth of knowledge and experience that you openly share, and the time and effort you put into doing so. Since subscribing to your channel a few years ago I have learnt so much, for which I'm eternally grateful. I have yet to read any of the 904 comments already left before I started composing this one, but have no doubt they'll be along the same vein as this. Also I think you handled this with sheer character, absolute class, and dignity. Music feeds my soul. Thank you
Excellent explanation of how parts effect sound. I built a pair of your Brutes with the high end options. I could not find a speaker anywhere that performs as well for the price. I have built several pairs of speakers including Open Baffles, which are my favorite. Parts do matter! Facts are often difficult for people today, Danny you need to put more feeling into your reviews so the wannabe's can understand what your offering. Andrew is clearly a very sensitive man, he needs a hug.
"Andrew is clearly a very sensitive man, he needs a hug." LOL, he sometimes looks like he is giving himself chills when describing a product.
This was very interesting, thank you for taking the time to explain and for not doing one of these emotionally driven response videos. Calm, mature and informative.
This process makes me appreciate Audio Note. They don’t like to advertise price because you can buy the same speaker model with varying degree of internal parts and wiring. Two sets of speaker might look identical but vastly different in price.
Andrew Robinson's point seems to be that upgrading a speaker's crossover may not always offer the best value. After purchasing speakers and then investing in crossover upgrades, you may have spent enough money that it would have been better to invest in a higher-quality speaker from the start, avoiding the additional work and hassle. While DIY speaker projects can be enjoyable and are a valid hobby, for the average person who may not want to invest the time and effort, their money could be better spent elsewhere.
Although crossover upgrades can make a difference in sound quality, the improvement doesn't always justify the cost. Spending significant money on upgrades may only result in a marginal improvement, without addressing the inherent limitations of the speaker's design. True innovation in speaker performance comes from a ground-up approach that considers the entire design, not just the crossover. Ultimately, how a speaker measures in performance is often more important than individual component selections when it comes to how it will sound. This isn't meant to criticize anyone's choices but simply reflects a personal opinion. Cheers!
This opinion added some fog and haze to the concept.
Let me tell you , even my car stereos tweeter sounds way better when I replaced factory tiny electrolyte 6.8uf for a 6usd worth audio poly cap .... Difference is significant to a trained ear , not to mention , resistors that also make a difference, than inductors , internal wiring , cabinet enhancements, binding posts upgrade and all of it improves the sound .
So cheap speaker sold for 200usd can be greatly improved by spending 70usd for better caps and resistors, coils , just pick wisely to stay in this tight budget and YES it will make these 70 USD speakers sound much much better and well worth 70usd spend on better quality parts .
Than if you approach 600usd speakers and say you decide to spend 140usd on parts to upgrade the crossovers the difference on such speaker will be even greater ... Proportions and logic in such upgrade is a key for it to make sense .
"Ultimately, how a speaker measures in performance is often more important than individual component selections when it comes to how it will sound."
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't see how you can come to that conclusion. I can give you the specs to a speaker and you can't tell me how its going to sound. Let me give you a real example of what I'm talking about. I'm very sensitive to high frequencies. You can have a metal tweeter and a soft dome tweeter that measures very close, if not the same, and can sound very different in actual use. Measurements are not going to tell you that.
@@052RC I appreciate your perspective, and I agree that measurements alone can't fully capture the subjective experience of listening to a speaker. What I meant by "how a speaker measures far exceeds parts selections" is that while individual components, like tweeters, do contribute to the overall sound, the performance of the entire speaker system - as indicated by how it measures across various parameters - often provides a better indication of its overall quality and design than simply focusing on component selection in isolation.
To your point, measurements might not always reveal specific nuances such as listener sensitivity to certain frequencies or tonal preferences. However, they do provide a more objective baseline for comparing performance and understanding how the speaker was engineered. So, while measurements may not tell the whole story, they are a key part of understanding speaker performance when considered alongside subjective listening tests. I fully acknowledge that sound is a subjective experience and can vary significantly from person to person. For example, as you pointed out, two tweeters that measure similarly might sound quite different to someone sensitive to high frequencies. While measurements offer an objective baseline for performance, they can’t account for personal preferences or sensitivities.
It's definitely a balance between objective data and personal listening experience. Thanks again for engaging in the discussion!
@@kdomster9141 Thank you for your input. I completely understand the perspective you're coming from, and I don’t doubt that upgrading components like capacitors, resistors, and inductors can improve the sound of a speaker, particularly for someone with a trained ear. However, my point was more about the broader balance between cost, time, and the overall design of the speaker itself.
You’re right that a budget speaker can be improved with better components, but there are inherent limitations in what can be achieved due to the overall design of the speaker. Cabinet design, driver quality, and tuning play a significant role in a speaker’s performance, and those factors often can't be fully addressed by just upgrading the crossover. While spending $70 on upgrades may improve a $200 speaker, it’s important to recognize that the improvements may be marginal when compared to purchasing a speaker that was designed from the ground up with higher-quality components, cabinetry, and tuning.
There’s also the consideration of diminishing returns. As you mentioned, the difference might be more significant in a $600 speaker, but there comes a point where the cost of upgrading components may not deliver improvements that justify the expense. High-end speakers are typically designed with a balanced integration of all parts, not just components, so modifying one area might yield subtle changes, but won't necessarily unlock the full potential of the speaker.
Ultimately, upgrading components can provide an enjoyable DIY project and can yield improvements, but I believe there's a balance between those upgrades and recognizing the limits imposed by the original design. It’s also worth considering whether the time and effort involved in such upgrades would be better invested in purchasing a speaker that already achieves the desired performance out of the box.
@@hoosierhifi5183 well, it is half truth, some 600usd speakers will use much better quality components that other 600usd speaker , proportional upgrade to 600usd speaker with 200usd of parts upgrade will vary with result of the upgrade as some 600usd speakers use a tweeter costing 15usd and sounding like it while some 600usd speakers will use much better quality tweeter costing 40usd but sounding better than some 90usd tweeters from some 3000usd speakers .
My point is you can't assume as all speakers and upgrades a open book approach where you need to do intelligent analysis of what is worth to upgrade and how much to spend on what area of the speaker .
Biggest point is when done wisely crossover and cabinet/posts/stands will make the speakers sound much cleaner and if they did cost much more than initial price spend on the speaker and upgrade .... Go for it and have fun observing the changes and make assessment used in your next projects . Yes even 10000usd speakers with stock crossover parts worth say 300usd can be upgraded to better quality and it will sound better , much better as drivers , cabinet, posts are all much better quality than in 600usd speaker so more expensive speaker makes more sense to upgrade.
Example , Magico floor standers sold for 11000usd use Mundorf Caps worth 60usd (I know their sound and there is a ton of room for improvement with better Cap.
So let's not smear the fact that upgrades almost always make sense if you care about sound quality .
Very well spoken , part quality does make a huge difference. And I'm Glad you extended an invitation to Andrew. I follow both channels and I respect both of your guys knowledge.
Ouch, that hurts!! A very professional reply, factual and not emotional.
Very classy response Danny you just showed how much of a gentleman you are. I was watching the whole time thinking invite Andrew invite Andrew….and bam! 👍🏻
The guts ARE important. The high end audio industry is NOTORIOUS for not only snake oil but "reviews" that often feel like paid ads. Manufacturers have privately admitted that when they set HIGHER prices, their products are perceived as better by the high end industry in general. The budget of a product allocated to cosmetics alone can be a significant chunk of the selling price.
Fo-Sho ! - But Damm the finish on Wilson speakers Is Freakin Sweet !! ( lol
@@DarrenShaw-ev5tb LOL And Sonus Faber too! They're gorgeous. But I purchase speakers for sound not how they look.
@@zizendorf So you buy a car based on 0 to 60 and not the looks or the colour or options like leather etc? I call BS
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt Well you can call bullshit all you want. I didn't come here for an argument. However, I did research for a year and then searched for an Audi A6 Avant. Found one, based upon 0-60. Bought it and didn't give two shits that it was silver. But, you're right, it does have a leather interior. They all do. I'd have purchased it regardless of it's color. LOL
@zizendorf Ok…but if you have two different pairs of speakers that sound identical…and one looks better to you than the other….which
pair are you going to go with? Can you really say looks aren’t important at all?
Built (from scratch) and updated plenty of "high end" speakers. Crossover parts do make a difference. But there's always cost benefit factor and point of diminishing returns as with all speakers and audio. The human ear is so personal. But love what GR does. I'll keep watching ya. Keep it up
Thank you Danny, I’m with you 100%
Danny, you're such a good guy! Thanks for the video. Upgrading to higher quality components in an audio circuit definitely improves the sound, ESPECIALLY capacitors. No question about it.
Saying parts quality doesn't matter in audio is like saying food quality doesn't matter in cooking.
I think he sad that he doesn’t care , not that the parts don’t matter. Two different things
Bien dit 🙂
@tysonn4736
He was simply saying that as long as the speaker performs as intended. It doesn't matter the parts used. You know, about 45 years ago, this wasn't even a topic of conversation. The JBL100 is one of the most popular speakers in history. Not once during its heyday did anyone ask about crossover parts quality! I wonder why in recent history suddenly it's an important matter?
@@anthonyjackson7097 yes because we had no way to measure all those things back then!!! he was skewering gr's business model and all of the good they do for customers .
@@anthonyjackson7097 Exactly
I appreciate you, I love knowing what I played for and if I was taken advantage of by a manufacture, I have the Polk L600, L800, L200 and L100 thank you for shining light on the Shadiness.
Andrew’s “who cares” response came across as hugely pompous to me. Big turn off.
@@jwilson086 yup...ego pride pompous arrogant all knowing and yet admits his limitations of understanding, that pretty much sums up everyone born in 1980 to present. Lol.
Definitely has an asshole vibe to him.
Weird you were turned on by another man anyway.
Not sure if pompous as much as pure ignorance which is just as bad, especially ignorance regarding a field that he should be well versed in.
Andy is a QUEEN
There is an objective measurement of capacitor quality: ESR -- Effective Series Resistance. But, there will still be a small difference between those with the same ESR. The lower the ESR the better because ESR forms a low pass filter.
I thoroughly enjoyed this video, very classy and informative. I sincerely hope that Andrew reciprocates positively for the growth of his channel and for himself.
Brilliantly done. Love the integrity of this. I do hope you and Andrew get together. Keep us posted.
This may get some people riled up.
While I think Andrew could have been less condescending with his feelings towards the speaker modding/upgrading community, i very much understand his point.
He doesn't review DIY/modded equipment. His reviews have to be based on what he receives from a manufacturer or retail store. It truly doesn't matter what parts are in the product. If it's good, he explains why. If it's not, he explains why. If it's really bad, he doesn't post a review.
His channel has never been about telling viewers to buy something, take it to someone else to fix problems with it, then take it home and enjoy it.
I guarantee that, as long as he's been in the HIFI world, he understands what crossover parts do to a signal. It's just that, for the purpose of what he and Kristie do with their channel, they don't matter.
If you don't like the way a speaker sounds from the factory, don't buy it. Definitely don't buy expecting Danny to be able to work miracles and make it sound like something that would cost you $3-4K more than what you paid. Just buy one of Danny's kits and get the good stuff the first time.
Much as I don't come to Danny's channel for info on how well a particular pair of Paradigm towers might blend in with the decor of my living room, i don't go to Andrew's channel for detailed technical analysis of how they perform. I watch Andrew and Kristie to get info about it would be to live with a particular product as it comes from the manufacturer.
A fair & balanced comment!
Somebody gets it!
This!
If that's not what his channel is about, and you're right, it isn't, then he should never have made a video like that.
I really don't think he (Andrew) made a point!!!
Danny, you burst my bubble! I thought that I was the only one placing components on the positive and negative side. I feel somewhat inspired to make a crossover using a buffalo nickel as the base and using cheddar core inductors with twine insulated wires, and a gum wrapper to conseal the contents. Definitely a Mickey mouse job!
About your product i buy norez end tube conectors from you because i live in belgium end the shiping price end doane is not cheap but the difrent betwen befor end after is huge is what Danny said clean basse end more clarity i´m very happy end i recomand to all my frends thank you GR research
Great video, I’d love our customers to better understand that dynamic range, transient response, phase coherence, great parts, really well designed drivers cabinets/ enclosures are just as important as measurements and frequency response. Keep up the great work.
Better parts better performance that goes for everything that's made in this world there's always something better and upgrade that will make it better sound better drive better whatever it is it will be better. Why do people understand that butter parts and everything else in this world makes it better except for better parts on a speaker. They should look at the ultra-high end and the really high-end components inside those speakers and there's nothing like these cheap speakers why are they using them because they're better and that's why they sound so good!
Holy cow did I learn a lot on this one. Thank you!
i think you and Andrew are on more of the same level than you both think. the niche market he's referring to is the speaker "hot-rodders" like yourself. nothing wrong with it, just not for everyone
I greatly appreciate your knowledge and your style. I have learned so much from you. And this is why I will be buying your gear. I just have to decide which of your speakers will work best in my space. I recently exchanged emails with Hobbs and will be giving you a call real soon. Gordon in SF
Danny you should make a test set on encores and use cheap crossover parts send it to Jay. He would be a good guy to do a fair comparison . Do a downgrade to prove your point.
Great idea! I hope he sees this
My GR-Research crossover upgrades were my first introduction to how speakers should really sound and led me down the right path in my audio journey which has brought me many hours of enjoyment. In my opinion after experiencing the upgrade experience myself, anyone who thinks negatively about it doesn't know what they are talking about or are biased for some financial or other self interest.
12:20 Andrew: As an electrical engineer and an audiophile, I CARE about the crossover network design and components.
Danny, this has been an Absolute First Class Presentation about what and how Upgrades that you do can be Experienced! Great Job Man!💯🔥
I think you missed his point and made his point at the same time. Here’s an analogy. He’s saying buy the car you like and if you don’t like it trade it in for one you do. Your saying buy a car if you don’t like it puts new rims, wrap it, put a turbo on it and so on. It just different preferences.
Bingo.
I would urge everyone to buy an older vehicle and fix it up. Less in the landfill and will likely last longer than a car made these days. I own a ‘89 190e and it will go to my kid
I bought kits for my Klipsch RF7 iiis and 600m IIs and RP0504C (center) and couldn't be happier. There IS a massive sounds difference to speakers that were already good and are now amazing.
This is fantastic!!!
You are absolutely right, thanks for the video! I wish you all the best
I get where AR is coming from. Not everyone is “chasing a value”. Some people just buy a product and can be perfectly happy with it. Yes, you can nitpick and see where the manufacturer cut corners or where they saved a few bucks by skimping, but if you’re happy with what you paid for, who’s position is it to judge?
There’s always those that go to a fancy steak house and drop $120 for a nice grass fed prime grade porterhouse and be satisfied. You will find just as many that would complain and say, “That restaurant sources it food supply from Sysco. There’s no way that streak dinner should have been $120” it’s all individual perspective in the end.
A speaker manufacturer can use better parts for sure, but there’s a reason why many brands do the upgrade by providing an upgraded model. For example B&W 705 S3 vs, 705 S3 signature or Sonus Faber with their Amator editions, Triangle with the Anniversary editions. In the end, if a speaker sounds good to my ears, and I’m willing to pay $$$$ for them, I’d be okay knowing not everything is top shelf component wise. If I want better, or not satisfied, I’d get the upgraded model or one model up. Easy peasy. 😂
@@funkychicken2119 you are making too much sense.
Just because a manufacturer calls it an “ upgrade” doesn’t mean it actually is, it just means you will be paying a higher price for it !
One of the most sensible posts here. It’s just about what you’re after, is all. Some people just want to buy a speaker, be happy with it and be done. That’s Andrew. Then you got people like myself and Danny who want to eke out every drop of performance and are willing to dive deep into the details to achieving that. People have preferences and choices, why are we arguing?
@@azar3006 Wouldn’t that be illegal? That would be false advertising would it not? Consumer protections and BBB wouldn’t allow a product to be repackaged and rebranded as an “improvement” or “upgrade” version of a precious product if you’re simply just repackaging the old product. That makes zero sense. The up grades can be very minor, but they are still upgrades nonetheless. Better binding post, better finish, and in the B&W’s case, an upgraded crossover. The Sonus Faber Lumina Amator is the same, they redid the finish and reworked the crossover. Too imply any company would rebadge a product as “improved or upgraded” while simply rebranding it without any improvements is insane and would get you fined or taken to court in a class action case.
Your logic is flawed though. Manufacturers skimp on crossover parts because you don't see it, it's hidden. You won't find many $10,000 speakers with vinyl wrap because it's in plain view and buyers expect wood veneer. BTW grassfed is not better and in blind taste tests by chefs, they all disliked the taste of grassfed meat.
So much to be Learned by watching this Channel ! - Thank You Sir
Andrew & Kristi.... I love your reviews. I get what you're doing and why. No issues with it at all. BUT..... There's a lot of validity to what Danny is saying. I realize your not engineers and just want results and caring how the results happen isn't important. I get that we live in a world of buy good or buy better. Not picking a side, because Danny knows I'm brutally honest.
Danny.... something you didn't mention. The expense to upgrade a speakers crossover isn't always going to provide enough "leveling up" to warrant the cost. The gain can be fractional on some speakers and simply isn't worth it.. Some speaker can really use an upgrade, but not all and not all are worth the investment.
When the cost just isn't worth it then I don't offer the upgrade.
@@dannyrichie9743 But that's subjective. I gave this video a thumbs up and never have done that for any of your videos. Why? It's a good explanation as to why better parts create better sounds.... in most cases. ;) Do a video on driver speed and how controlling that speed is important to sound. As a matter of fact, do a video series on speakers from A to Z, meaning cover design, driver selection, crossover builds, etc. etc. I think it would be good for the audience to understand a bit of the engineering, kind like you did in his video.
@@lithiumstaticHow can it be subjective when Danny clearly explains the speaker charts, frequency curve and waterfall ?
and plus he has the experience to decide if certain upgrades are not worth it !
@@azar3006 The money in exchange for what someone feels is of good value. Not arguing data.
If you’re happy with your speakers stick with them and don’t worry about upgrades. If you want more or are interested in exploring, the upgrades are for you. I personally enjoy the educational aspect of upgrades. Like a lot of things it doesn’t have to be one or the other. Different strokes for different folks.
.......also.... if your average £600 class leading stand mount speaker had a decent crossover it would be nearly double the price .... I have taken apart dozens of so called hi end speakers to find £12 worth of crossover components, most crossovers I have upgraded have cost hundreds, but transform the sound. The manufacturers just cant afford to put in decent parts unless you are paying very big money indeed.
So Andrew, sorry on this one you are WRONG... Danny, as with other experts in his field ,understand that if you are prepared to spend the money you can make HUGE improvements.
Uhh wrong. Often the crossover doesn't even cost a dollar to the manufacturer and this on a $4000 speaker. The manufacturer could easily add $200 in crossover parts at their cost to greatly improve the speaker. No one refuses to buy say a $5200 speaker over a $5000. People feel better on their purchase if they know what they don't see on the inside is of decent quality.
Great video 👍
Id love how humble you are and still proves obvious facts. Ill hope Andrew comes to visit so he can be upgraded.
Keep up the good work 🙏
Crossovers are the weakest point on any speaker that are build for price point what ever is the price point, period. I upgraded my speakers crossovers with better components and it was BIG upgrade! All those cheap sandcast resistors, electrolytic capacitors and iron core coils removed with better parts was game chancer!
Many thanks for this video.
I have been doing this to my speakers and HiFi since the late 1970's. I upgraded the crossover for my 1971 KEF Chorale speakers. I used the Falcon Acoustics ( Malcolm Jones ex KEF designer ) upgraded x over. I mounted the x over out side the speaker and this made such an improvement that i have been doing this sort of thing ever since. I am amazed how many expensive Speakers use ordinary components and cable in their speakers, yet the manufacturer makes great claims for the quality of the components . Yet i look at those components and i know the prices and can add up the cost and go CHRAPSKATE. I design and build my own speakers and they sound really very good compared to many commercial products . This annoys me as i am a hobbyist with some basic knowledge . So again thanks for this video. ps i am about to upgrade the x overs in my ACR Eckhorn corner horns. Specifically the resistors. I hope to use Dulunds . I have already upgraded the capacitors and inductors and the cables in the xovers and cabinets. So should be a fun job
Not suprising that Andrew and his wife would not understand that the crossovers are more important than the drive units... I can tell you from many years of experience, you can get very good results with high quality crossover components and cheap drive units, it does not work the other way round...... high quality drive units will reveal the massive improvements crossover components can make.
Their videos are pretty much just him reading the manufacturer's brochure. Its so insanely mind numbing listening to his stuff its beyond basic.
Yup. Feels like a paid advertisement.
Your last point is particularly salient, it confirms my experience too.
I find them quite entertainig. High quality videos and he's showing products at their best.
Can't find anything wrong with it when someone is interested in new gear and wants some information about it.
He's making comparisons to other speakers, Amps or whatever they review.
Who likes to read brochures when someone does it better for you in a video!?
@@voodooshome There really isn't any comparisons because he thinks everything is great and wonderful so he doesn't lose sponsors.
He's got a point .Don't like your speakers get a new pair - There's zillions out on the market Now if you like your speakers, and you can take them to another level then upgrades makes sense .Makes even more $ sense on older top model hi end speakers and are still great or used speakers that were purchased at a heavily discounted
price leaving the buyer extra 🍞for potential upgrades - ultimately you do have to first like the speakers you own
So much to say here! Fantastic video, I hope it goes somewhere with Andrew and Kristi. I really think they need to keep a more open mind in this area. Even if they were neutral on the subject they shouldn’t bash us that apreatiate it. Kristi kinda had a go at me in the comments section of there last video and I was disappointed, because I respect them and watch all there videos. I challenged them to upgrade the crossovers on a pair of there speakers to see the benefits for themselves. There white Klipsh would be perfect for this however I do not expect this to happen. 🤞🏼. I honestly feel sorry for people who don’t understand or trust Danny and GR Research. We as hobbiest are extremely lucky to have him mentoring our way. Crossover upgrades arnt for everyone. But man it’s sure fun knowing you have good parts in there making the speaker the best version of its self!
Well said!
... their minds have been open for a long time... open to being paid for "facts", open to birds picking away their brains... open to anyone who will agree with their narrow views.
Danny is right about Andrew. I did upgraded two pairs of tower speakers of KLIPSCH on my own before I knew about GR Research and those speakers turned out so much better than original parts
Hello GR Reasearch: Thank you for this video sir. What I admire about you and your company is that you don't have a hidden adjenda like other tube channels. I've been an audio enthusiast since I was young & you have educated me in many areas that when I walk into a person's home & hear some of this audio crap that is actually painful to listen to. God Bless & stay safe, TMP from N.J.
As usual daddy just put yourself out there as a true human being. I wish I had to resources time and money to buy your stuff and I’ll plan on saving up for some of your speakers but just you as a human being putting it out there from your heart is well worth my time to watch your videos. Keep it up, sir. You’re doing it’s all a good servicelearned a lot
I admire both Danny and Andrew. I think it’ll be educational for Andrew to visit GR and bring his reviewer expertise to Danny. In this wonderful hobby one can always learn.💎💎
Andrew will never do that.
There is no cash in it. That`s all he cares about.
I have pair of Timekeeper 2’s from Tyler Acousics designed by Danny. I hear new things in music I have been listening to for 50 years!! Amazing sound & detail. Danny is the real deal!!
I may be wrong but I think most of you are missing the point. I don’t think he’s saying that good components don’t matter. He’s saying why spend money on something to turn around and “Fix” it. Just buy a better quality speaker instead.
I can understand why he might think that, however, it reality that is not at the case. That next bigger or more expensive model has the same budget level cheesy parts most of the time. Then you are faced with the same thing. You just have an even more expensive speaker that needs help too.
The chances are that the speaker that's upgraded will be better than the more expensive speaker is stock and you'll spend less money over all.
The industry standard markup is about 5x the bill of material costs. Imagine you start with a $1000 speaker, that speaker has about $200 in parts. If you bought a $2k speaker to get something better, that better speaker only spent an extra $200 in parts.
@@dominicdiclemente8877 Also factor in the loss you take when reselling your $1k speakers.
Problem is, those higher quality (more expensive) are using cheese also. Manufacturers, for the most part, don’t care. Because most people don’t care. As Danny said. You can’t know what your missing if your not exposed to it. I’m only saying this from personal experience. I grew up in an audiophile
family. Thought I knew my s-it. Then I experienced a 80,000 dollar system. What more can I say.