*Hey guys. Thank you for stopping by. If the video was helpful or entertaining to you, please consider clicking the like button on the video* *NOTE 1 (RE: BLIND AB Protocals): as with any cable video or blind tests, people like to comment with how they "think" the test should have been conducted. Please keep note that this test was done with limited resources, time and flaws and therefore is not a perfect blind test. I still think it was better than nothing and entertaining/fun, you may think otherwise and that is fine. Some are asking for my credentials, which is fair. I won't put my entire resume here but I currently work as a researcher (scientist) managing 3 different teams in the field of neuroscience and cognition but that isn't to persuade you into thinking that the blind test I did with Danny is perfect because it is not. I did what I can with time, resources and my own funding available to do it. It's just a matter of people pointing out the obvious flaws (which sure, that is fine) but if some are going to go far as to "tell me how do it right and how I should have done it" - well then, I naturally challenge them to do it themselves and show that it can be done with limited resources and time. Show me how it's done! If I can learn from it, I will. Far as I know, I don't see much blind AB attempts or discussions on youtube* *NOTE 2 (RE: CABLES USED): Some are commenting that I should have used a similar gauge cable while some are commenting that I should have tested Danny with the Aliexpress cable. I will explain why I did neither of those things. Firstly, there was limited time and resource and so while these tests would have been interesting, I went for the broader topic of "does a generic cable sound different from an audiophile cable and can the manufactures of those cables tell the difference from a "stock cable" or 16awg zip cord which is the most common. If I was testing the same gauge cable as the GR-Research cable, then I'd have to find an 8AWG cable which is not as common and this would also mean that we are totally ignoring and skipping the fact that many cable measurement gurus say that the 16awg zip cord is just as good with no difference in the application of home audio where cable lengths are not terribly long. Some said there was an obvious difference between them because of the differences in the gauges (thickness) of the cables, which may or may not be true but measurement wise, it is not true that there is an obvious difference and so with anything there is a step 1, 2 and 3. I can't skip to step 2 and assume gauges make a difference when measurements do not support that. Hence I went with the very basic step first, which is to test STOCK vs NON-Stock cables. As for the aliexpress cable, again, the comments vary from asking why I didn't take the aliexpress cable to why I didn't modify the aliexpress cable in a similar way to GR-Research's cable and then test it with Danny. To put it simply, again it was skipping to step 3 before even addressing the simpler questions and steps. The title of the video wasn't "can the aliexpress cable be modified to be as a good as the GR-Research cable" - although an interesting topic that I might pursue later, it isn't the topic in this video. Aliexpress cable was simply not brought with me because I quite frankly thought it sounded terrible even compared to other normal generic cables I have at home that I have tested. Quite frankly, I can attest that the generic 16 awg we used in this video was much better than the aliexpress cable. Hopefully this clears up some confusion or questions some of you guys have.* GR Research Cables: gr-research.com/cables/ Related Videos: Insider Look at The GR-Research Factory - DIY Audiophile Speaker Haven: th-cam.com/video/d6m2jJRcq3A/w-d-xo.html Full 2+ hr video of Danny Doing the blind test: th-cam.com/video/bh_m3CRwwM0/w-d-xo.html Support on Patreon: www.patreon.com/jayiyagi follow on Instagram: instagram.com/jays_iyagi/ follow on Facebook: facebook.com/jayiyagiofficial Follow soundstage take 2 reviews: th-cam.com/play/PLPOzvlhtSqn5xdc__ftuSt4Rxy_wm5Af0.html Speaker stands: amzn.to/3ssRhI3 Better speaker stands: solidsteel.it/my-product/ss-7-vintage-hi-fi-speaker-stands/ acoustic panels I use: ua-acoustics.com/ acoustic curtain: amzn.to/31d1zAM BDI Cabinet I use: bit.ly/2OJRwQQ amzn.to/3chBuFZ other BDI Cabinets: bit.ly/3ctxXV1 amzn.to/30bsUCH my fav hifi tweaks: (Isoacoustics devices) amzn.to/3j5FGvM 0:00 Backstory 1:47 Was Danny Able To Tell A Difference? 12:59 Why is the GR-Research HiFi Cable Better? 16:21 Is There Measurements For Better HiFi Cables? 18:00 How do you design Better HiFi Cables? 19:35 Should You Get GR-Research Cables? #hifi #audiophile #homeaudio
What a load. Why didn't you bring your Aliexpress cables? Comparing to Walmart cables was not what we wanted to see. I guess Danny wouldn't let you do that A/B test as it would reveal what his cables really are. FAIL.
@@stasis2007 Can't please everyone. As I said in the video, me and my cameraman compared the aliexpress cable and found the differences huge so I wasn't interested in Danny doing the easy comparison. I think the "Walmart cable" was a harder one
@@Jayiyagi Did you stuff the Aliexpress cable with cotton rope and terminate them the same? Did you do equal burn-in so the comparison is equal? I can take a high end cable and put crap banana or spades on them and it will impact the sound from the original. I do not think this was an unbiased test at all. I'd even wager the bare cable on both is the same, just the rope and termination is different.
@@stasis2007 Can a modified Aliexpress cable sound as good as the GR-Research cable? - A cool video idea but not the subject of this video nor the point of this test
@@Jayiyagi I appreciate your response Jay. The problem a lot of people have with Danny is that he always comes off as kind of scammy and a bit disingenuous. He buys his cable from China, yet insists that nobody can possibly buy what he has. There are only so many sources for this Kimber knock-off cable. If you ask for any details on the cable, he refuses to respond, says it's a trade secret or simply blocks you. I tend to never trust anyone that silences people for questioning. Again, good job on the video and sorry you had to explain yourself to others. Did you every get his banana plugs tested for copper content like you said you were going to do?
Thanks for honesty. Dannys cable is kinda reasonable. But in the end one has to decide. 1000/pr + $30 speaker cable vs $800/pr + $230 speaker cable. To this day... better speaker with cheaper cable always wins.
Your example makes your chances of being correct better, but mostly would be incorrect as the price of the speakers is increased from your example. Price does not necessarily determine the quality of the cable and the speakers. One day when you have good speakers( maybe you do have good speakers) you will become familiar of all the qualities of playback that can be affected by cables. Some speakers destroy the differences when the designer has not paid attention to the details (no matter the price). Having started my speaker journey with speakers from Thiel, Magnepan and Dynaudio, all speakers paying a great deal of attention to phase and a linear amplitude response. When I finally found a great speaker cable the less expensive speaker and the more expensive speaker both improved in a significant way. The Cable Company will send you cables for a percentage of the cost of the cables you want to try to expand your cable experience. I tried 4 cables much more expensive than my twisted double 16 guage radio shack wire that failed to make a difference, the 5th cable which were wound in such a way that my Thiels would not sit flat on the floor (so I hated them) made all the difference in my system (Sonagraphe SD-22, Motif MC-7, CJ MV-75A, Sota/Premiere/Grado, Thiel CS1.2 & Dynaudio Twynn kit) So since 1995 I discovered not all cables make a difference, but some do..TARA Labs Quantum III was the difference making cable. It removed a glare and a hash the other cables left on the sound of my system and that helped my system define the spaces around and in between instruments on the $1250 speakers and the $2500 speakers. My RS $30 cables and the 4 other cables degraded the sound comparatively and the "noise" that remained over the music degraded the $2500 speakers below the $1250 speakers.
Good on Danny to put himself on the line and he came out on top! Thanks to Jay for putting in some serious effort to answer the question "Do cables make a difference?".
So glad you made the trip and are reporting what you experienced, heard and saw. This should be the norm in the industry, where people can get together and challenge manufacturers on their equipment. Well done Jay and Danny!
Jay and Dani giving the internet a lesson of how to go about controversies and disagreements, dialogue and conversation will Always be the answer kudos to you guys really fun video
This was one of the most educational videos I've seen a while. And just when he has me sold on the cables and tube connectors he brings me back down to earth with speakers and room treatment. I like my speakers now but my room is horrible.
8 out of 10 with non-audiophile recordings is very impressive. Thank you for taking time to do this. All my music is in crappy recordings and I can relate to this experience.
Excellent interview, Jay. and Danny. This is the kind of content I love informative and without bias. I believe Danny has proven himself quite a few times now to be a straight shooter.
I think it's pretty awesome that you two were able to get together and discuss audio gear, and even do a blind cable test, without acrimony or even a hint of tension. Great series of videos.
This is a long overdue discussion that I will be sharing quite often. There are so many important nuanced aspects of this discussion that seem to go over peoples heads. These things are argued “to death” on forums and FB discussions. Every discussion seems to inevitably distill down to arguments about the ability to hear differences. I get so tired of people with desktop systems who cannot hear a difference TELLING others who CAN hear differences in their treated rooms, that they “shouldn’t hear a difference because it cannot be measured” or it’s “just your bias” or some “psychoacoustic placebo effect”. Thank you guys for doing this.
Wow! First time I've ever heard anyone reference Vienna Teng! She's fantastic - her writing and performing. She's also a warm, kind, and compassionate human being - met her prior to a show for a Q&A session. She's got a lot of great stuff out there!
Props to Danny for agreeing to do this and also getting 8/10, very impressive! Also, I totally agree with your statements on the frustration about not being able to measure the differences. It would be a lot easier to communicate the benefits of things like this if there was a scientific way to detect and show the differences.
"It would be a lot easier to communicate the benefits of things like this if there was a scientific way to detect and show the differences. " There is a scientific way to show differences. Everyone seems to think some kind of measurements need to be done to achieve scientifically valid results. That's not true. To start with, you need to test for something objective. What sounds better or worse is irrelevant. That's personal preference. Can't go by price either. If a $500 cable goes on sale for $300, the cable doesn't sound any different. For example, "is there a difference between cable A and cable B?". That's it. You need to test for something like that. The solution is this. If you set up a blind listening test going by the principals listed in the scientific method, you will have scientifically valid results so long as you consider all relevant variables. For example, if you are testing 2 pairs of cables to find audible differences between them, as long as your test accounts for all variables so that when you AB the cables, any differences in sound has to be due to the cables, and nothing else. And if you get all of that right, your results will be every bit as valid as a measurement. You have to do a listening test because we don't know how to measure everything we hear. And yes, I know doing a test like this is a pain in the ass, but you really have no choice. In the future, we may figure out how to explain more with measurements, but until that happens, you need a well conducted listening test. Null testing also looks very promising.
80% accuracy is pretty darn good - especially considering the material selected. I would need very high quality recordings wherein I was familiar with every nuance both engineered and presented by the raw talent of the musicians. The fact that Danny chose to challenge himself demonstrates the level of confidence he has in his products.
@@poturbg8698 No that's not the placebo. You could still hit 80% just by chance, its not a high chance but still there. To demonstrate, flip a coin 10 times, getting 10 heads in a row is a really small chance. Flip that coin 1000 times, and getting 10 heads in a row becomes a lot more statistically possible. So if there was a 3rd cable, or he was told there was a 3rd cable but not what it is and could then say to that same level, "that one is mine, that one is the other, but theres something different here, it doesn't sound like the other's etc." He said it himself there, to paraphrase "I could hear a difference but couldn't tell", if I'm paying several thousand for a cable (I have no idea how much it actually costs) I'd want to not have to guess if its the cheap or old, it would have to leave me with 0 chance of not being able to tell.
@@banginga3468 Too bad this experiment didn't meet your exacting criteria. I think itd be best if you just stuck with the cheapest cables you can find so you can be secure in the fact that there is no difference.
So, now that I'm done watching this vid in its entirety, I have to say - this was a very entertaining and much-needed open discussion on the topic. Job well done.
As a Telecom worker for years originally working on Copper Cable runs (now mainly Fiber Optic Cable) we use diagnostic testing machines that you can physically graph the signal and glean much data, including RF interference. You just need a multi-thousand dollar tool that is precisely engineered with physical graphing ability among many other measurements you can take.
I have GR X-Statik speakers (which I love btw) but my room is far from ideal. I am very skeptical of claims about speaker wires but this kind of video is honest and appreciated. Danny is clearly a very talented designer.
i just went through this same experience last week... I purchased 5m kimber cable 8PR.... to replace inakustik Excellence 2x4mm cables.... about 4 times the price difference. no other change (except the banana plugs, i needed to use a different brand that could take the quantity of the 8PRs to terminate....) summary, the kimber cables were pretty easy to hear the difference. it was like I had not really heard cymbals before, which I can not explain easily why that it the case. the cymbals were now more than just a tsss tsss, they were musical. And then, another difference, i could hear better the width of the keyboard of the piano between the speakers.... danny called that the spatial cues. anyhow, I am happy to have upgraded.
I think cables likely do make a difference but so many of us are living in subpar listening environments that we really can’t tell the difference. I’ve been to Danny’s listening room and it is amazing. (I have the XStatiks also but at Danny’s with the open baffle subs they are amazing!)
@@jmitchell3no, you'll be able to hear the difference. First, listen to both directions/orientations. There's one way that's far superior ;) This is heard no matter the listening environment. One orientation annoys everyone, the other more smooth and natural with a holographic presentation.
Great job Jay. I very, very much enjoyed this meeting with Danny. Placement, placement, placement, first! I have really loved watching you both on your respective channels and will continue to do so.
Well done with the test! There should be more tests like this even with amplifiers and sources. One thing I have found in my setup, eliminating banana / spade termination and using just bare wire directly on the speaker terminals has a very positive effect on sound.
Love Danny and Jay. I'm glad this video and Randy's recent video on cables came out. I've always noticed differences in cables, but it was always such a taboo subject :P
Very fun to watch! Thanks for making the trip Jay and Danny is a great sport to do this test. Watching him beat himself up on getting the last one wrong is too much! Not an easy thing to do. Like you said, it's one thing to hear a difference but a next level thing to connect that difference back to the particular cable used. Love this series!
Very Brave of both Jay and Danny! That said..I am a #10 solid copper lamp cord guy. 🙂 (I do not have a system like Danny's). I did just remove all the cheap electrolytic-film capacitors and cheap resistors in the tube stage of my Schiit Freya+ Preamp and soldered in $600 worth of V-Cap oil-damped metallized capacitors and Audio Note audiophile resistors. I was extremely pleased with the time and financial investment that truly improved the sound in my system & room. Plus…IT WAS FUN! 😀
Here are the flaws with this test. First of all you are using a tube amp which would inherently have a high output impedance. Then you are using two cables that obviously have huge differences in gauge. I'm not sure what the nominal impedance is on the speaker but if it's in the range of about 4 ohms, all of this is a recipe for creating huge differences in frequency response between the two cables. Tube amp combined with higher resistance thin wire equals a large voltage drop across those two components, equals a larger variant in frequency response when switching between a heavy gauge wire and thin one. This would all be obvious to someone with electrical engineering background. It would have been better to use a solid state amp with high damping factor and a wire with similar gauge. The challenge reminds me of the old Monster Cable trickery comparison at the big box store where you could switch between a thick Monster speaker cable and a very thin wire spun into a long spool.
The gauge of the wire has nothing to do with the audible differences between the two cables. We have also done the same comparisons with other amps and get the same results and often to an even larger factor.
I bought the GR KEF Q100 upgrade and 16 wire speaker wire kit and tube connectors to the speaker. It's made such a difference it knocked down the brightness of the tweeter and now the music is spacious and images even better than before the upgrades now it just needs a subwoofer. Hopefully, I can get room treatment and buy a GR speaker kit soon. I love the direction your channel has been taking; thanks for more great content worth watching Jay!
Good work. Although, comparing a $400 cable to a $4 cable, I would hope we all would hear a difference! I'd like to see this test done again with a $40 cable compared to the $400 cable.
Danny brings up a great point, "you get lost in the music" you really don't give a crap what type of cable you're using. LOL Funny on how Jay and Danny where hitting heads a few years ago now they are friends, which is a good thing. The problem with that it makes reviewers biased in the long run... ;)
This was very informative on a somewhat controversial subject. Jay, ya done good. That shows me you are a man of good character and are open and honest. I think we ALL learned something here, and for that I will also say, thank you.
At 20:33, a comparison is made between two different environments with the same gear, and in the 2nd environment it sounded flat. This difference often be the changes between power receptacles and power/signal/speaker wire and their orientations. It also can be the difference between the Romex cable gauge and direction within the walls. It's especially dependant on the breaker box parts! Sometimes the power foundation can trump other changes down the line. We experienced this when moving familiar equipment with exacting configurations and parts from an older house to a newer one. The newer house had a completely different breaker box, and very different outlets. I went to the old house and removed some of the outlets to bring to the new house. It was a night and day difference when listening to the same setup at the new house with the old outlets. This got me into searching for better outlets, and I've found some very special sounding ones which remove a serious amount of "veil" and grain/harshness from ANY hifi or guitar amp I plug into them. Every tiny part from power distribution matters. Tone starts at the wall.
I really appreciate the work and integrity here, thank you. I have noticed an audible differences (with good systems playing quality recordings) between generic 16 awg and 12 awg OF copper cables. A better reference for the comparison with the GRR cables would be properly terminated generic OF copper of the same gauge as the GRR (8 awg)?
@@Jayiyagi Thanks Jay...missed the comment...late at night. The cable thing is a big deal to many. The testing stands on it own and is greatly appreciated. The matter is further complicated by the possibility that the best cable for a system is one that has an optimal impedance match with the amp, rather than the exotic and expensive build. The fact that the "cable debate" persists is evidence that the differences between properly constructed, but affordable, cable and exotic expensive cable are small. If the differences were robust, the matter would have long ago been put to rest with a mass of consistent empirical findings. The advice that the two of you provide is spot on. Many thanks for what you do!
Wire gauge had nothing to do with the audible differences. The only area that lower resistance can make a difference in output is in the first octave and the first octave was being filtered out by the pre-amp. So levels were the same all the way across.
@@dannyrichie9743 Are you saying that your speaker’s exhibit a constant impedance across the entire frequency spectrum being fed to them? Unless you’re feeding a purely noninductive load, wire gauge will certainly have an influence on speaker’s sound, albeit small. As the speaker’s impedance changes with frequency (and they all do, some dramatically), the voltage drop across the cable will change, (simple voltage divider here), effectively changing the frequency response of the speaker. A larger diameter cable, with a lower series resistance, will experience less voltage fluctuation, therefore have less effect on the speaker’s response.
Many years ago, with the second audio equipment sounding much worse than now, I appreciated the difference between the typical/cheap OFC audio cable and the current Kimber Kable 8PR (interleaved like GR-Research's): more detail and, very noticeably, more bass. Now I also notice the difference in the connectors but it is more subtle. The sound improvement after changing tweeter filter components was spectacular. Finally, the quality of the electrical grid is essential, which is getting louder every day. The difference can also be spectacular, at least in my house. If you notice, Danny has a couple of car batteries for the little amps.
I liked the video. Liked the way it doesn't come across as a commercial just to sell something. I appreciated the moment you tell us not to spend money on the cables unless you did everything else. Good point. But 10 blind tests ain't something to draw a conclusion on. If you want results you need to repeat the test with mutiple people everyday for a year. The results could be very different then. Still I myself heard differences between cables. I must say I only heard differences with speaker cables. Never with other cables used in my system. And I have tried different brands and priceranges and most cables are still in use because none of them were bad. Well 1 was badly build and fell apart while unplugging (not the cheapest one).
3 F's for this video - Fantastic - Fun - Frank :-) Two great guys having fun with a frank discussion about cables and the limitations of certain tracks in order to discern one cable from the next - as in if there is no "air" in a recording it's not all that easy to hear "air' when comparing cables ! Please do more of this guys if you can !! And OH Danny - I do love your reviews and "fix-its" for various speakers - for example the Totem - I was always wondering why I didn't like their sound and your video clearly illustrated the stridency on their top end . . . I really love what you're doing and you too Jay - with YOUR TH-cam productions !! Carry ON!!
I'd like to buy and try Dannys cables. He is a very experienced guy. Currently I use the thin analysis plus cables which are extremely efficient and sound great. But gr research know their stuff so I will try.
So similarlly, I did the test with like 5 tracks, each in 3 formats lossless, 128 and 192 bit mp3. I didnt get but 1 right and even then, it was a crap shoot. So I seriously doubt my ears would discern the difference. Cheers to those who can, but then again, in this case, ignorance is bliss.
As a followup. I always thought about a way to measure difference in any cables, if there is any. Can't we use someone, like Danny's sound system and treated room, add high quality recording studio-type microphones, and just record the output of the system playing music with different cables? Wouldn't that at the very least show a difference in the spectrogram?
You can do that but it may, or may not work. We know we can't measure everything we can hear. However, that doesn't mean you can't do any testing. Instead of using lab equipment to measure differences, you can set up a listening test, where if done correctly, it will yield scientific results. The upside is you can prove there are real differences between 2 products. The downside is, it won't explain why. But at least you'll know what you are hearing is real.
There is a talk from audioquest somewhere on youtube that talks about this exact setup. They say they measure up to 20dB of noisefloor drop inroom. It's on the audio excellence canada channel I believe. I still need to test this at home but I don't have the software to do so yet
if there are differences it is testable. actual science requires more than one person doing a study. A/B-ing could be done with sounds touching - no gap. use one speaker, mono. use speakers like nice desktop so you could mic the speakers. use a Klippel and test a speaker 800-1000 measurements per cable, quasi-anechoic. test without moving phyiscally each time. test without feedback or reaction / take down guess non-verbally. have someone who tests with most sophisticated technology available do this. too many variables otherwise sorry no i am not close minded to actual differences,; i am open minded to scientific approach. science is actually really hard to achieve! if its this subtle though, please ppl dont waste time and money. there's so many ppl who could use your disposable fundage. give it to organizations that help people.
You should note, however, that we have no measurements at all on the cables used. Significantly different measuring cables will differ audibly. It is claimed that cables that measure almost identically will differ audibly, because it is said that previously undetected influences are not detected during the measurement of "audiophile" cables, but the differences can be heard clearly - therefore measurements of the cables used are needed. Since the test was not blind, it is not guaranteed that it was fair. This means, for example, that it is not impossible that Danny could derive information from the time that passed when reconnecting the cables, reconnecting flexible cable to reconnect rigid cable.
@@ctrl___ 1. I did not measure the cables, you are correct 2. It is not ONLY claimed that differently measuring cables are audibly different. It is said that bad measuring cables are the only ones that will be audibly incorrect and better measuring cables have no audible effect as it is not within our hearing capabilities. I can confirm that the 16awg cable did not sound out of place and was not bad at all even compared to the more expensive GR-Research cable. Is hundreds of dollars extra justified for the more expensive cable then? Not my job to make that conclusion for you, that is for you to decide. 3. The test was blind. Meaning, he could not see anything. I can confirm that 100%. However, it was not a "perfect" blind test in that not all parameters were set to no fault due to external factors (see pinned comment). I can also confirm that your assumption about reconnecting the cable is wrong, the full video of the blind test was recorded and will be uploaded shortly, you can tell me if you can "guess" based on me connecting the cables. Both plugs in straight, makes no different noise and I am connecting and disconnecting only the ends of the speaker side - there is absolutely no variation (based on cable type) flexibility or weight or time spent plugging between the two PS. One camera was on Danny's face and you can see in the full video that he was looking down (choosing his next music) rather than looking at me changing the cables.
So you guys compared a 16 & 8 AWG cable...? Why exactly? What was the point? Anyone could have told you that there will be a difference by using larger cables. Should have compared 2 cables of the same length and same gauge...!
@@Jayiyagi Thanks! Well... Still not sure what you were trying to prove. If it's that "a generic cable sound different from an audiophile cable", you have to use the same gauge...! What you tested was simply "can someone differentiate an 8 vs 16 AWG copper wire", which I don't think was the disputed claim, and it says nothing about generic vs audiophile cable. It's to be expected that a cable 7x larger than another will be a better conductor... Were they even the same length? Bottom line: Known fact cable gauge affects conductivity, and given speaker impedance and all, can have audible effect. Disputed claim is that snakeoil cables (power cables, RCA cables, speaker cables, etc.) perform any better than normal cables. You can't give a MASSIVE advantage to snakeoil cable, by comparing it to cable 1/7th the size, and claim to have positively demonstrated the claim! It's like... I dunno... Proving that kevlar is superior subwoofer driver material to aluminum, and to prove it you use an 18 inch kevlar driver and compare it to an 7 inch alu sub...!
Wire gauge had nothing to do with the audible differences. The only area that lower resistance can make a difference in output is in the first octave and the first octave was being filtered out by the pre-amp. So levels were the same all the way across.
OK, you triggered me. The problem with audio measurements is we are locked into steady state sinewave measurements. While the audio waveform is a non-repetitive instantaneously changing signal. In video we had differential phase and gain measurements that did some level of dynamic signal measurement. Perhaps close to audio IM but more complex. When digital came along a whole new set of test signals and measurements were developed that were time domain based. Even using FFTs. An FFT is a transform from time based to frequency based. It requires an accumulation of data/ signal. It's initial zero time state requires an infinite bandwidth. Over time the wave is converted from the time domain into the frequency components based on going back to steady state sinewaves. So we can measure sine waves again. We need an entirely new approach to audio measurement. Something strictly time/ impulse based that monitors phase relationships as well as simple frequency related levels.
Great discussion. Some take aways are: Cables can make a difference, But the difference is small, It will only be heard with music well recorded with space cues It will only be heard if the setup is reasonable, equipment can also kill it Some people do not hear it. Could be their ears, experience, type of music or room setup. IMHO can also be poor system or all of the above. And that is ok. If you do hear it and value the small but important change, then buy for performance not for bling or dollars spent. DIY can also be the answer.
But..........if the differences are clearly audible, they would also be measurable. So while I believe in "Blind Tests", they are also at the same time, NOT definitive nor actual "Proof" of anything. 8/10 while quite good and for sure leans towards a "for sure" difference he could detect, still comes down to possibly guessing well a few times. Several rounds and with additional neutral participants would make the proof far more valid also.
@@kevintomb All good points. In the end I go back to my same basic observation. The differences are minor, but may be enough to be a keeper. So no use investing a lot of money or sweating over what test yeilds the magic happiness meter. That's why I do DIY, get something that pleases me without spending much and then just be satisfied. I suspect that his braided cables are a little better than my current DIY ones. But not worth the effort or $250 for me to switch. Certainly not worth $10,000 for some super duper commercial one.
And the other thing to keep in mind is a loud speaker is a reactive load. The cable is part of the system. It is nigh on impossible to predict the combination of impedance matching into complex reactive loads might impart the best sound. Try a few things and then be happy.
Can the connectors and unfamiliarity with the test cable be the difference? Usually you’re swapping out your own cables for an upgrade, after having listening time with it, it should be easy to hear differences. Second, can the connectors limit transmission?
It's a dumb product because the current flows on top of the wire so if you have more strands you have more surface area plus they're way easier to bend
Hi Jay, interesting clip, on your point about how a cable improves sound stage or bass or air, etc... I believe that high-quality cables aren't improving the sound they are allowing "more" of the signal to come through to the speakers. So you hear, closer to 100% of the sound quality that your components are capable of delivering. I think this is why there is a lot of disagreement about cables, people aren't understanding what's going on. So it comes down to what their system is capable of delivering and how much of the sound quality is making to their speakers. This is where well-made cables can really ensure you hear everything your system is doing. Cables unlock the full potential of your system
Thank you for doing this, it's really interesting to watch something like this so I can get my own opinion. So far I think that cables do make a difference, but of all the things one could upgrade, they are the least bang for buck. I think most other components would make a greater differences in different price classes. But I'm always free to be convinced otherwise.
From my experience, going from a $20 Amazon or Monster cable to a good $50-100 Audioquest or Straightwire cable can make a significant difference in the sound quality of your system. But, that's interconnects that I'm talking about. I've never really felt the same when it comes to $100-200 speaker cables from those two or from Kimber. I actually prefer Audioquest's 14 ga. two conductor in-wall speaker wire, terminated with simple banana plugs. It's 2 14 ga. wires, one in a red jacket and one in a black one, with a white outer jacket.
It makes more difference if u can avoid mains cable in the wall... I have a female mains plug very close t my mains.. Avoiding 15 metres of mains makes a big difference and it is free.. I have not spent 2 grand on audiograde in wall cable
Nice honest talk! I would have prefer a 12 AWG pure copper cable on that system to compare to the very good cable because nobody wood put a 16 AWG on that... question: apart from speaker placement, is a very good DAC a must? Reviewers says all the time that this DAC have much more depth than this "500$ one that have "flat" soundstage... not easy to balance all the components and wires in a limited budget even up to 2-3k
My experience is that unless you have about a $10k system, you wont notice much difference between a $500 DAC and a $2000 DAC... for a $2-3k system ,my opinion is just stick to whatever DAC is in your equipment. I know from experience its a hard rabbit hole to NOT go down ..LOL!
@@dannyrichie9743 Is it true that everything travels on the outside of the wire and not through the inside? Plus it's thickness and type of material covering each wire that makes the biggest difference?
I’d just pick the one that sounded best. Either one’s different or ther the same. I have 2 relatively good sounding sets of speaker cables and I tried one pair that eventually fatigued my ears and settled on the ones that didn’t. Details are great but it’s easier to choose after becoming familiar with the sound. I’ve been initially impressed a few times with gear that eventually revealed unmusical tendencies. There are unmusical artifacts in all music reproducers. I just tinker with my system to lessen the worst. Sometimes it seems to sing, sometimes it doesn’t. Thanks for your interesting shows.
This is a great reply. It's interesting how many other people don't go with their gut and constantly try to discredit what is so obvious to the ear and soul when it comes to system tuning. People seem to be afraid of believing the obvious, simply because it "shouldn't be true".
Some years ago, me and a skeptical friend were in a high end workshop. The spokesman(?) changed back and forth a DIGITAL cable. Remember, bits are bits! It was easy to pick up diferences on drums cymbals. Then he looked at me and said: "Now I have a conflict between my mind and my ears". I nerver forget that :)
It's a US$ 10,00 speaker cable versus a US$ 140,00 one (for a 10 ft cable), tested with his own speakers, in his own treated room, with the songs he chose, and he guessed it 8 out of 10 (when 5 in 10 would be considered sheer luck). We should also consider the possibility that, having built the cable, he would know the sonic signature of the material, and was able to pick up the differences, not necessarily the BETTER one. Congratulations on the courage and honesty of trying your own products on a blind test (God knows that most hifi manufacturers wouldn't do that to not risk embarrasing themselves), but as Danny himself points out at the end of the video, you must have excellent speakers, properly set up on a proper room, with the right equipment, with excellent recordings, in order to start picking up the differences between 2 cables.
A super high end and perfectly set up system is not necessary to hear the differences. What I was pointing out in the end is that it is more important to take care of those areas first so that the differences that cable can bring to the table can be fully realized.
Compare cables with the same measured resistance next time. Very good but still inexpensive shielded twisted fiber copper is going to dover well head to head. Also next time you need to double blind your experiment so the one changing does not know which is which.
So many reviewers use the term "believe" when talking about cables, it undermines everything. Either your system reveals the differences or it doesn't.
Thank you so much Guys for all of your hard work, and I have learned a lot from this video! I totally agree with you that we can't do measurements on harmonics. It's similar to vinyl/analog vs. digital sources.
Jay, we've all seen that you've been using/ reviewing Danny's cables for months now. I assume you now have a sense of what impact they have on a system. A/B comparison aside, were you noticing a difference during the tests as well?
What was the length of both cables? I think if you had used a slightly better (low end) cable it would be much harder to tell the difference, especially for lengths under 3 meters.
*Hey guys. Thank you for stopping by. If the video was helpful or entertaining to you, please consider clicking the like button on the video*
*NOTE 1 (RE: BLIND AB Protocals): as with any cable video or blind tests, people like to comment with how they "think" the test should have been conducted. Please keep note that this test was done with limited resources, time and flaws and therefore is not a perfect blind test. I still think it was better than nothing and entertaining/fun, you may think otherwise and that is fine. Some are asking for my credentials, which is fair. I won't put my entire resume here but I currently work as a researcher (scientist) managing 3 different teams in the field of neuroscience and cognition but that isn't to persuade you into thinking that the blind test I did with Danny is perfect because it is not. I did what I can with time, resources and my own funding available to do it. It's just a matter of people pointing out the obvious flaws (which sure, that is fine) but if some are going to go far as to "tell me how do it right and how I should have done it" - well then, I naturally challenge them to do it themselves and show that it can be done with limited resources and time. Show me how it's done! If I can learn from it, I will. Far as I know, I don't see much blind AB attempts or discussions on youtube*
*NOTE 2 (RE: CABLES USED): Some are commenting that I should have used a similar gauge cable while some are commenting that I should have tested Danny with the Aliexpress cable. I will explain why I did neither of those things. Firstly, there was limited time and resource and so while these tests would have been interesting, I went for the broader topic of "does a generic cable sound different from an audiophile cable and can the manufactures of those cables tell the difference from a "stock cable" or 16awg zip cord which is the most common. If I was testing the same gauge cable as the GR-Research cable, then I'd have to find an 8AWG cable which is not as common and this would also mean that we are totally ignoring and skipping the fact that many cable measurement gurus say that the 16awg zip cord is just as good with no difference in the application of home audio where cable lengths are not terribly long. Some said there was an obvious difference between them because of the differences in the gauges (thickness) of the cables, which may or may not be true but measurement wise, it is not true that there is an obvious difference and so with anything there is a step 1, 2 and 3. I can't skip to step 2 and assume gauges make a difference when measurements do not support that. Hence I went with the very basic step first, which is to test STOCK vs NON-Stock cables. As for the aliexpress cable, again, the comments vary from asking why I didn't take the aliexpress cable to why I didn't modify the aliexpress cable in a similar way to GR-Research's cable and then test it with Danny. To put it simply, again it was skipping to step 3 before even addressing the simpler questions and steps. The title of the video wasn't "can the aliexpress cable be modified to be as a good as the GR-Research cable" - although an interesting topic that I might pursue later, it isn't the topic in this video. Aliexpress cable was simply not brought with me because I quite frankly thought it sounded terrible even compared to other normal generic cables I have at home that I have tested. Quite frankly, I can attest that the generic 16 awg we used in this video was much better than the aliexpress cable. Hopefully this clears up some confusion or questions some of you guys have.*
GR Research Cables: gr-research.com/cables/
Related Videos:
Insider Look at The GR-Research Factory - DIY Audiophile Speaker Haven: th-cam.com/video/d6m2jJRcq3A/w-d-xo.html
Full 2+ hr video of Danny Doing the blind test: th-cam.com/video/bh_m3CRwwM0/w-d-xo.html
Support on Patreon: www.patreon.com/jayiyagi
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Follow soundstage take 2 reviews: th-cam.com/play/PLPOzvlhtSqn5xdc__ftuSt4Rxy_wm5Af0.html
Speaker stands: amzn.to/3ssRhI3
Better speaker stands: solidsteel.it/my-product/ss-7-vintage-hi-fi-speaker-stands/
acoustic panels I use: ua-acoustics.com/
acoustic curtain: amzn.to/31d1zAM
BDI Cabinet I use: bit.ly/2OJRwQQ
amzn.to/3chBuFZ
other BDI Cabinets: bit.ly/3ctxXV1
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my fav hifi tweaks: (Isoacoustics devices) amzn.to/3j5FGvM
0:00 Backstory
1:47 Was Danny Able To Tell A Difference?
12:59 Why is the GR-Research HiFi Cable Better?
16:21 Is There Measurements For Better HiFi Cables?
18:00 How do you design Better HiFi Cables?
19:35 Should You Get GR-Research Cables?
#hifi #audiophile #homeaudio
What a load. Why didn't you bring your Aliexpress cables? Comparing to Walmart cables was not what we wanted to see. I guess Danny wouldn't let you do that A/B test as it would reveal what his cables really are. FAIL.
@@stasis2007 Can't please everyone. As I said in the video, me and my cameraman compared the aliexpress cable and found the differences huge so I wasn't interested in Danny doing the easy comparison. I think the "Walmart cable" was a harder one
@@Jayiyagi Did you stuff the Aliexpress cable with cotton rope and terminate them the same? Did you do equal burn-in so the comparison is equal? I can take a high end cable and put crap banana or spades on them and it will impact the sound from the original. I do not think this was an unbiased test at all. I'd even wager the bare cable on both is the same, just the rope and termination is different.
@@stasis2007 Can a modified Aliexpress cable sound as good as the GR-Research cable? - A cool video idea but not the subject of this video nor the point of this test
@@Jayiyagi I appreciate your response Jay. The problem a lot of people have with Danny is that he always comes off as kind of scammy and a bit disingenuous. He buys his cable from China, yet insists that nobody can possibly buy what he has. There are only so many sources for this Kimber knock-off cable. If you ask for any details on the cable, he refuses to respond, says it's a trade secret or simply blocks you. I tend to never trust anyone that silences people for questioning. Again, good job on the video and sorry you had to explain yourself to others. Did you every get his banana plugs tested for copper content like you said you were going to do?
This says ALOT about Danny. Name ONE other industry person who would allow this to happen and be videoed real-time! Bravo Danny!
Was it real time ! Now let’s do it fair.
100% agree. Danny seems to be one of the very few, who even though is a manufacturer, backs up his thoughts with reasoning.
Scott see what I wrote to Jay. What do you think? I am the latest to ask...Sept 2023
Comedy gold
What does it say about the industry? That people are susceptible to marketing. Period.
Thanks for honesty. Dannys cable is kinda reasonable. But in the end one has to decide. 1000/pr + $30 speaker cable vs $800/pr + $230 speaker cable. To this day... better speaker with cheaper cable always wins.
Your example makes your chances of being correct better, but mostly would be incorrect as the price of the speakers is increased from your example. Price does not necessarily determine the quality of the cable and the speakers. One day when you have good speakers( maybe you do have good speakers) you will become familiar of all the qualities of playback that can be affected by cables. Some speakers destroy the differences when the designer has not paid attention to the details (no matter the price). Having started my speaker journey with speakers from Thiel, Magnepan and Dynaudio, all speakers paying a great deal of attention to phase and a linear amplitude response. When I finally found a great speaker cable the less expensive speaker and the more expensive speaker both improved in a significant way. The Cable Company will send you cables for a percentage of the cost of the cables you want to try to expand your cable experience. I tried 4 cables much more expensive than my twisted double 16 guage radio shack wire that failed to make a difference, the 5th cable which were wound in such a way that my Thiels would not sit flat on the floor (so I hated them) made all the difference in my system (Sonagraphe SD-22, Motif MC-7, CJ MV-75A, Sota/Premiere/Grado, Thiel CS1.2 & Dynaudio Twynn kit) So since 1995 I discovered not all cables make a difference, but some do..TARA Labs Quantum III was the difference making cable. It removed a glare and a hash the other cables left on the sound of my system and that helped my system define the spaces around and in between instruments on the $1250 speakers and the $2500 speakers. My RS $30 cables and the 4 other cables degraded the sound comparatively and the "noise" that remained over the music degraded the $2500 speakers below the $1250 speakers.
@@JurMalafi you dreaming!
Total B.S . Cool story though 👍🏻
Good on Danny to put himself on the line and he came out on top! Thanks to Jay for putting in some serious effort to answer the question "Do cables make a difference?".
So glad you made the trip and are reporting what you experienced, heard and saw. This should be the norm in the industry, where people can get together and challenge manufacturers on their equipment.
Well done Jay and Danny!
Jay and Dani giving the internet a lesson of how to go about controversies and disagreements, dialogue and conversation will Always be the answer kudos to you guys really fun video
This was one of the most educational videos I've seen a while. And just when he has me sold on the cables and tube connectors he brings me back down to earth with speakers and room treatment. I like my speakers now but my room is horrible.
You two lads should hook up together more often. It would be for the greater good in this audiophile world...
I hope you two do more of this. It was excellent.
8 out of 10 with non-audiophile recordings is very impressive. Thank you for taking time to do this. All my music is in crappy recordings and I can relate to this experience.
What is an "audiophile" recording?
@@vdochev Diana krall vs AC/DC … IYKYK
@@vdochev 😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄
@@vdochev I apologize you are clueless
It's not impressive, it's stupid.
Excellent interview, Jay. and Danny. This is the kind of content I love informative and without bias. I believe Danny has proven himself quite a few times now to be a straight shooter.
I think it's pretty awesome that you two were able to get together and discuss audio gear, and even do a blind cable test, without acrimony or even a hint of tension. Great series of videos.
This is a long overdue discussion that I will be sharing quite often. There are so many important nuanced aspects of this discussion that seem to go over peoples heads. These things are argued “to death” on forums and FB discussions. Every discussion seems to inevitably distill down to arguments about the ability to hear differences.
I get so tired of people with desktop systems who cannot hear a difference TELLING others who CAN hear differences in their treated rooms, that they “shouldn’t hear a difference because it cannot be measured” or it’s “just your bias” or some “psychoacoustic placebo effect”.
Thank you guys for doing this.
Respect to GR Research for admitting to getting some wrong. And explaining that differences are subtle but evident in better recordings
He had to, otherwise you would not have been convinced. Maybe you need to buy some of his cables, but don't expect the effect to last that long.
Wow! First time I've ever heard anyone reference Vienna Teng! She's fantastic - her writing and performing. She's also a warm, kind, and compassionate human being - met her prior to a show for a Q&A session. She's got a lot of great stuff out there!
Props to Danny for agreeing to do this and also getting 8/10, very impressive! Also, I totally agree with your statements on the frustration about not being able to measure the differences. It would be a lot easier to communicate the benefits of things like this if there was a scientific way to detect and show the differences.
"It would be a lot easier to communicate the benefits of things like this if there was a scientific way to detect and show the differences. "
There is a scientific way to show differences. Everyone seems to think some kind of measurements need to be done to achieve scientifically valid results. That's not true. To start with, you need to test for something objective. What sounds better or worse is irrelevant. That's personal preference. Can't go by price either. If a $500 cable goes on sale for $300, the cable doesn't sound any different. For example, "is there a difference between cable A and cable B?". That's it. You need to test for something like that.
The solution is this. If you set up a blind listening test going by the principals listed in the scientific method, you will have scientifically valid results so long as you consider all relevant variables. For example, if you are testing 2 pairs of cables to find audible differences between them, as long as your test accounts for all variables so that when you AB the cables, any differences in sound has to be due to the cables, and nothing else. And if you get all of that right, your results will be every bit as valid as a measurement.
You have to do a listening test because we don't know how to measure everything we hear. And yes, I know doing a test like this is a pain in the ass, but you really have no choice. In the future, we may figure out how to explain more with measurements, but until that happens, you need a well conducted listening test. Null testing also looks very promising.
80% accuracy is pretty darn good - especially considering the material selected. I would
need very high quality recordings wherein I was familiar with every nuance both engineered
and presented by the raw talent of the musicians. The fact that Danny chose to challenge
himself demonstrates the level of confidence he has in his products.
To make that challenge more accurate, a placebo should have been introduced.
@@howardskeivys4184 I don't understand your question. The "placebo" was actually the generic cable.
Yeah, no. LOLZ.
@@poturbg8698 No that's not the placebo. You could still hit 80% just by chance, its not a high chance but still there.
To demonstrate, flip a coin 10 times, getting 10 heads in a row is a really small chance. Flip that coin 1000 times, and getting 10 heads in a row becomes a lot more statistically possible.
So if there was a 3rd cable, or he was told there was a 3rd cable but not what it is and could then say to that same level, "that one is mine, that one is the other, but theres something different here, it doesn't sound like the other's etc."
He said it himself there, to paraphrase "I could hear a difference but couldn't tell", if I'm paying several thousand for a cable (I have no idea how much it actually costs) I'd want to not have to guess if its the cheap or old, it would have to leave me with 0 chance of not being able to tell.
@@banginga3468 Too bad this experiment didn't meet your exacting criteria. I think itd be best if you just stuck with the cheapest cables you can find so you can be secure in the fact that there is no difference.
So, now that I'm done watching this vid in its entirety, I have to say - this was a very entertaining and much-needed open discussion on the topic. Job well done.
As a Telecom worker for years originally working on Copper Cable runs (now mainly Fiber Optic Cable) we use diagnostic testing machines that you can physically graph the signal and glean much data, including RF interference. You just need a multi-thousand dollar tool that is precisely engineered with physical graphing ability among many other measurements you can take.
When that is done there is no difference
Great job guys!!! Never gonna satisfy those that refuse to “LISTEN” for the differences though.
I have GR X-Statik speakers (which I love btw) but my room is far from ideal. I am very skeptical of claims about speaker wires but this kind of video is honest and appreciated. Danny is clearly a very talented designer.
i just went through this same experience last week... I purchased 5m kimber cable 8PR.... to replace inakustik Excellence 2x4mm cables.... about 4 times the price difference. no other change (except the banana plugs, i needed to use a different brand that could take the quantity of the 8PRs to terminate....) summary, the kimber cables were pretty easy to hear the difference. it was like I had not really heard cymbals before, which I can not explain easily why that it the case. the cymbals were now more than just a tsss tsss, they were musical. And then, another difference, i could hear better the width of the keyboard of the piano between the speakers.... danny called that the spatial cues. anyhow, I am happy to have upgraded.
I think cables likely do make a difference but so many of us are living in subpar listening environments that we really can’t tell the difference. I’ve been to Danny’s listening room and it is amazing. (I have the XStatiks also but at Danny’s with the open baffle subs they are amazing!)
@@jmitchell3no, you'll be able to hear the difference. First, listen to both directions/orientations. There's one way that's far superior ;) This is heard no matter the listening environment. One orientation annoys everyone, the other more smooth and natural with a holographic presentation.
@@ChonkTek Direction? What are you on about?
Great job Jay. I very, very much enjoyed this meeting with Danny. Placement, placement, placement, first! I have really loved watching you both on your respective channels and will continue to do so.
Nicely done and thanks for sharing. Looks like a very worthwhile and hugely enjoyable trip. I'm very jealous
Well done with the test! There should be more tests like this even with amplifiers and sources.
One thing I have found in my setup, eliminating banana / spade termination and using just bare wire directly on the speaker terminals has a very positive effect on sound.
I really enjoy listening to two people talk shop, when they really know what they're talking about. This was a good video.
Love Danny and Jay. I'm glad this video and Randy's recent video on cables came out. I've always noticed differences in cables, but it was always such a taboo subject :P
Very fun to watch! Thanks for making the trip Jay and Danny is a great sport to do this test. Watching him beat himself up on getting the last one wrong is too much! Not an easy thing to do. Like you said, it's one thing to hear a difference but a next level thing to connect that difference back to the particular cable used. Love this series!
Good on you Jay, for keeping an open mind and trusting your ears.
Thanks Jay, by the way, how that open baffles sounds?
“Comparison is the thief of joy”. Doesn't matter who said it. More importantly, just something to consider.
I give him credit for taking the challenge, guaranteed you couldn't find many if any manufacturers that would do that especially on Camera
Kudos to you for doing it! Too many shy away from these kind of tests.
Great video.
Very Brave of both Jay and Danny!
That said..I am a #10 solid copper lamp cord guy. 🙂 (I do not have a system like Danny's).
I did just remove all the cheap electrolytic-film capacitors and cheap resistors in the tube stage of my Schiit Freya+ Preamp and soldered in $600 worth of V-Cap oil-damped metallized capacitors and Audio Note audiophile resistors. I was extremely pleased with the time and financial investment that truly improved the sound in my system & room.
Plus…IT WAS FUN! 😀
Here are the flaws with this test. First of all you are using a tube amp which would inherently have a high output impedance. Then you are using two cables that obviously have huge differences in gauge. I'm not sure what the nominal impedance is on the speaker but if it's in the range of about 4 ohms, all of this is a recipe for creating huge differences in frequency response between the two cables. Tube amp combined with higher resistance thin wire equals a large voltage drop across those two components, equals a larger variant in frequency response when switching between a heavy gauge wire and thin one. This would all be obvious to someone with electrical engineering background. It would have been better to use a solid state amp with high damping factor and a wire with similar gauge. The challenge reminds me of the old Monster Cable trickery comparison at the big box store where you could switch between a thick Monster speaker cable and a very thin wire spun into a long spool.
yes it is a flawed test. It is by no means a perfect test. I agree. Please read the pinned comment for clarification
The gauge of the wire has nothing to do with the audible differences between the two cables. We have also done the same comparisons with other amps and get the same results and often to an even larger factor.
So yes, cables make a difference.
Thank you both for putting this video together.
Thanks to you both for using your time and resources for this.
I bought the GR KEF Q100 upgrade and 16 wire speaker wire kit and tube connectors to the speaker. It's made such a difference it knocked down the brightness of the tweeter and now the music is spacious and images even better than before the upgrades now it just needs a subwoofer. Hopefully, I can get room treatment and buy a GR speaker kit soon.
I love the direction your channel has been taking; thanks for more great content worth watching Jay!
Good work.
Although, comparing a $400 cable to a $4 cable, I would hope we all would hear a difference!
I'd like to see this test done again with a $40 cable compared to the $400 cable.
Very cool. What what about the speakers?! Do you have another video coming with your overall impressions?
Danny brings up a great point, "you get lost in the music" you really don't give a crap what type of cable you're using. LOL Funny on how Jay and Danny where hitting heads a few years ago now they are friends, which is a good thing. The problem with that it makes reviewers biased in the long run... ;)
Actually, I never had Jay in mind when I threw a broad blanket over the young TH-cam reviewers.
Thanks Jay for spending time with Danny.
This was very informative on a somewhat controversial subject. Jay, ya done good. That shows me you are a man of good character and are open and honest. I think we ALL learned something here, and for that I will also say, thank you.
Somewhat controversial is an understatement!
Even more compelling to me, is the anticipation of your impression of Danny's reference rig.
Lovely, open and honest chewing the fat. And Danny’s place is NOT the kind of home-spun garage set up his videos reflect. Very, very impressive.
Fantastic! Looking forward to more videos from Texas. Thanks for making the trip Jay!
This was great. Thanks Jay and Danny.
At 20:33, a comparison is made between two different environments with the same gear, and in the 2nd environment it sounded flat. This difference often be the changes between power receptacles and power/signal/speaker wire and their orientations. It also can be the difference between the Romex cable gauge and direction within the walls. It's especially dependant on the breaker box parts! Sometimes the power foundation can trump other changes down the line. We experienced this when moving familiar equipment with exacting configurations and parts from an older house to a newer one. The newer house had a completely different breaker box, and very different outlets. I went to the old house and removed some of the outlets to bring to the new house. It was a night and day difference when listening to the same setup at the new house with the old outlets. This got me into searching for better outlets, and I've found some very special sounding ones which remove a serious amount of "veil" and grain/harshness from ANY hifi or guitar amp I plug into them. Every tiny part from power distribution matters. Tone starts at the wall.
I really appreciate the work and integrity here, thank you. I have noticed an audible differences (with good systems playing quality recordings) between generic 16 awg and 12 awg OF copper cables. A better reference for the comparison with the GRR cables would be properly terminated generic OF copper of the same gauge as the GRR (8 awg)?
please read the pinned comment for clarification. Thanks !
@@Jayiyagi Thanks Jay...missed the comment...late at night. The cable thing is a big deal to many. The testing stands on it own and is greatly appreciated. The matter is further complicated by the possibility that the best cable for a system is one that has an optimal impedance match with the amp, rather than the exotic and expensive build. The fact that the "cable debate" persists is evidence that the differences between properly constructed, but affordable, cable and exotic expensive cable are small. If the differences were robust, the matter would have long ago been put to rest with a mass of consistent empirical findings. The advice that the two of you provide is spot on. Many thanks for what you do!
Wire gauge had nothing to do with the audible differences. The only area that lower resistance can make a difference in output is in the first octave and the first octave was being filtered out by the pre-amp. So levels were the same all the way across.
@@dannyrichie9743 Are you saying that your speaker’s exhibit a constant impedance across the entire frequency spectrum being fed to them?
Unless you’re feeding a purely noninductive load, wire gauge will certainly have an influence on speaker’s sound, albeit small. As the speaker’s impedance changes with frequency (and they all do, some dramatically), the voltage drop across the cable will change, (simple voltage divider here), effectively changing the frequency response of the speaker. A larger diameter cable, with a lower series resistance, will experience less voltage fluctuation, therefore have less effect on the speaker’s response.
A/B gives you a 50% chance of being right. Add an X (A or B), and you have an all-new ball game.
Many years ago, with the second audio equipment sounding much worse than now, I appreciated the difference between the typical/cheap OFC audio cable and the current Kimber Kable 8PR (interleaved like GR-Research's): more detail and, very noticeably, more bass.
Now I also notice the difference in the connectors but it is more subtle.
The sound improvement after changing tweeter filter components was spectacular.
Finally, the quality of the electrical grid is essential, which is getting louder every day. The difference can also be spectacular, at least in my house.
If you notice, Danny has a couple of car batteries for the little amps.
Good job Jay, good to see you make the trip to visit Danny. Entertaining for us, hope there’s more content from the trip.
If this was a sponsored video, then you legally need to click on the "Yes, it includes paid promotion" option.
It is not a sponsored video
I liked the video. Liked the way it doesn't come across as a commercial just to sell something. I appreciated the moment you tell us not to spend money on the cables unless you did everything else. Good point. But 10 blind tests ain't something to draw a conclusion on. If you want results you need to repeat the test with mutiple people everyday for a year. The results could be very different then. Still I myself heard differences between cables. I must say I only heard differences with speaker cables. Never with other cables used in my system. And I have tried different brands and priceranges and most cables are still in use because none of them were bad. Well 1 was badly build and fell apart while unplugging (not the cheapest one).
Great collaboration. I appreciate the candor.
8/10 = v. Impressive.
However, just goes to show, for most people, good standard cables are more than good enough.
I very much enjoyed this, and trial and error is part of science. After all, what is an experiment, but trial and error.
Jay, you should compare cables with the same cross section. Let's say one 4 mm2 cable to another 4 mm2 cable of the same length.
Jay finally meets his real father Danny....moving magnet moment
You could have waited after the Montreal Audio Show…Best show in a long time and no coverage 🥲 Nevertheless, very cool video.
Good lord, the story arc!
3 F's for this video - Fantastic - Fun - Frank :-) Two great guys having fun with a frank discussion about cables and the limitations of certain tracks in order to discern one cable from the next - as in if there is no "air" in a recording it's not all that easy to hear "air' when comparing cables ! Please do more of this guys if you can !! And OH Danny - I do love your reviews and "fix-its" for various speakers - for example the Totem - I was always wondering why I didn't like their sound and your video clearly illustrated the stridency on their top end . . . I really love what you're doing and you too Jay - with YOUR TH-cam productions !! Carry ON!!
I'd like to buy and try Dannys cables. He is a very experienced guy. Currently I use the thin analysis plus cables which are extremely efficient and sound great. But gr research know their stuff so I will try.
So similarlly, I did the test with like 5 tracks, each in 3 formats lossless, 128 and 192 bit mp3. I didnt get but 1 right and even then, it was a crap shoot. So I seriously doubt my ears would discern the difference. Cheers to those who can, but then again, in this case, ignorance is bliss.
What cables did you use ?
This is awesome. I love this video. Thank you BOTH!
As a followup. I always thought about a way to measure difference in any cables, if there is any. Can't we use someone, like Danny's sound system and treated room, add high quality recording studio-type microphones, and just record the output of the system playing music with different cables? Wouldn't that at the very least show a difference in the spectrogram?
You can do that but it may, or may not work. We know we can't measure everything we can hear. However, that doesn't mean you can't do any testing. Instead of using lab equipment to measure differences, you can set up a listening test, where if done correctly, it will yield scientific results. The upside is you can prove there are real differences between 2 products. The downside is, it won't explain why. But at least you'll know what you are hearing is real.
There is a talk from audioquest somewhere on youtube that talks about this exact setup. They say they measure up to 20dB of noisefloor drop inroom. It's on the audio excellence canada channel I believe. I still need to test this at home but I don't have the software to do so yet
Measure the ohms
Yes, and you can put both results into audacity and inspect the difference of the waveforms and see that nothing has changed 👍
You won't see it unless there are gross errors. Many have tried.
I trust Danny's integrity more than his ears.
Why he literally sells snake oil products
if there are differences it is testable. actual science requires more than one person doing a study. A/B-ing could be done with sounds touching - no gap. use one speaker, mono. use speakers like nice desktop so you could mic the speakers. use a Klippel and test a speaker 800-1000 measurements per cable, quasi-anechoic. test without moving phyiscally each time. test without feedback or reaction / take down guess non-verbally. have someone who tests with most sophisticated technology available do this. too many variables otherwise sorry no i am not close minded to actual differences,; i am open minded to scientific approach. science is actually really hard to achieve! if its this subtle though, please ppl dont waste time and money. there's so many ppl who could use your disposable fundage. give it to organizations that help people.
I find his ability to hear the difference 80% of the time impressive. I would have preferred the "B" cable to a little thicker than 16 gauge, however.
You should note, however, that we have no measurements at all on the cables used. Significantly different measuring cables will differ audibly.
It is claimed that cables that measure almost identically will differ audibly, because it is said that previously undetected influences are not detected during the measurement of "audiophile" cables, but the differences can be heard clearly - therefore measurements of the cables used are needed.
Since the test was not blind, it is not guaranteed that it was fair. This means, for example, that it is not impossible that Danny could derive information from the time that passed when reconnecting the cables, reconnecting flexible cable to reconnect rigid cable.
Ctrl you are spot on.
@@ctrl___ 1. I did not measure the cables, you are correct
2. It is not ONLY claimed that differently measuring cables are audibly different. It is said that bad measuring cables are the only ones that will be audibly incorrect and better measuring cables have no audible effect as it is not within our hearing capabilities. I can confirm that the 16awg cable did not sound out of place and was not bad at all even compared to the more expensive GR-Research cable. Is hundreds of dollars extra justified for the more expensive cable then? Not my job to make that conclusion for you, that is for you to decide.
3. The test was blind. Meaning, he could not see anything. I can confirm that 100%. However, it was not a "perfect" blind test in that not all parameters were set to no fault due to external factors (see pinned comment). I can also confirm that your assumption about reconnecting the cable is wrong, the full video of the blind test was recorded and will be uploaded shortly, you can tell me if you can "guess" based on me connecting the cables. Both plugs in straight, makes no different noise and I am connecting and disconnecting only the ends of the speaker side - there is absolutely no variation (based on cable type) flexibility or weight or time spent plugging between the two
PS. One camera was on Danny's face and you can see in the full video that he was looking down (choosing his next music) rather than looking at me changing the cables.
So you guys compared a 16 & 8 AWG cable...? Why exactly? What was the point? Anyone could have told you that there will be a difference by using larger cables. Should have compared 2 cables of the same length and same gauge...!
please read the pinned comment for clarification. Thanks!
@@Jayiyagi Thanks! Well... Still not sure what you were trying to prove. If it's that "a generic cable sound different from an audiophile cable", you have to use the same gauge...!
What you tested was simply "can someone differentiate an 8 vs 16 AWG copper wire", which I don't think was the disputed claim, and it says nothing about generic vs audiophile cable. It's to be expected that a cable 7x larger than another will be a better conductor... Were they even the same length?
Bottom line: Known fact cable gauge affects conductivity, and given speaker impedance and all, can have audible effect.
Disputed claim is that snakeoil cables (power cables, RCA cables, speaker cables, etc.) perform any better than normal cables. You can't give a MASSIVE advantage to snakeoil cable, by comparing it to cable 1/7th the size, and claim to have positively demonstrated the claim!
It's like... I dunno... Proving that kevlar is superior subwoofer driver material to aluminum, and to prove it you use an 18 inch kevlar driver and compare it to an 7 inch alu sub...!
Wire gauge had nothing to do with the audible differences. The only area that lower resistance can make a difference in output is in the first octave and the first octave was being filtered out by the pre-amp. So levels were the same all the way across.
Have you ever tested these off of the floor?@@dannyrichie9743
And again the room and setup are the glass ceiling. Great video
Just so nice to see you two together 😊
Thanks Jay, look forward to your listening impressions
This is nice TH-cam "beer summit".
OK, you triggered me. The problem with audio measurements is we are locked into steady state sinewave measurements. While the audio waveform is a non-repetitive instantaneously changing signal. In video we had differential phase and gain measurements that did some level of dynamic signal measurement. Perhaps close to audio IM but more complex. When digital came along a whole new set of test signals and measurements were developed that were time domain based.
Even using FFTs. An FFT is a transform from time based to frequency based. It requires an accumulation of data/ signal. It's initial zero time state requires an infinite bandwidth. Over time the wave is converted from the time domain into the frequency components based on going back to steady state sinewaves. So we can measure sine waves again.
We need an entirely new approach to audio measurement. Something strictly time/ impulse based that monitors phase relationships as well as simple frequency related levels.
First! ❤ 🎉 Been waiting for this one! Really glad you took the trip and hope you enjoyed your time Jay 👍
Great discussion. Some take aways are:
Cables can make a difference,
But the difference is small,
It will only be heard with music well recorded with space cues
It will only be heard if the setup is reasonable, equipment can also kill it
Some people do not hear it. Could be their ears, experience, type of music or room setup. IMHO can also be poor system or all of the above. And that is ok.
If you do hear it and value the small but important change, then buy for performance not for bling or dollars spent. DIY can also be the answer.
But..........if the differences are clearly audible, they would also be measurable. So while I believe in "Blind Tests", they are also at the same time, NOT definitive nor actual "Proof" of anything. 8/10 while quite good and for sure leans towards a "for sure" difference he could detect, still comes down to possibly guessing well a few times. Several rounds and with additional neutral participants would make the proof far more valid also.
@@kevintomb All good points. In the end I go back to my same basic observation. The differences are minor, but may be enough to be a keeper. So no use investing a lot of money or sweating over what test yeilds the magic happiness meter. That's why I do DIY, get something that pleases me without spending much and then just be satisfied. I suspect that his braided cables are a little better than my current DIY ones. But not worth the effort or $250 for me to switch. Certainly not worth $10,000 for some super duper commercial one.
And the other thing to keep in mind is a loud speaker is a reactive load. The cable is part of the system. It is nigh on impossible to predict the combination of impedance matching into complex reactive loads might impart the best sound. Try a few things and then be happy.
Can the connectors and unfamiliarity with the test cable be the difference? Usually you’re swapping out your own cables for an upgrade, after having listening time with it, it should be easy to hear differences. Second, can the connectors limit transmission?
Ah, the Tube Connector conundrum!
We've compared each and every aspect individually. Everything matters.
What about solid core wires? Such as Western Electric?
It's a dumb product because the current flows on top of the wire so if you have more strands you have more surface area plus they're way easier to bend
Ha, ha. Great. Kudus for both, and for the cables. They must be really good.😅
Hi Jay, interesting clip, on your point about how a cable improves sound stage or bass or air, etc... I believe that high-quality cables aren't improving the sound they are allowing "more" of the signal to come through to the speakers. So you hear, closer to 100% of the sound quality that your components are capable of delivering. I think this is why there is a lot of disagreement about cables, people aren't understanding what's going on. So it comes down to what their system is capable of delivering and how much of the sound quality is making to their speakers. This is where well-made cables can really ensure you hear everything your system is doing. Cables unlock the full potential of your system
Agree with you.
Was Danny's cable 16ga as well? There are audible differences between 14ga and 16ga.
Not at that length
Thank you for doing this, it's really interesting to watch something like this so I can get my own opinion. So far I think that cables do make a difference, but of all the things one could upgrade, they are the least bang for buck. I think most other components would make a greater differences in different price classes. But I'm always free to be convinced otherwise.
From my experience, going from a $20 Amazon or Monster cable to a good $50-100 Audioquest or Straightwire cable can make a significant difference in the sound quality of your system. But, that's interconnects that I'm talking about. I've never really felt the same when it comes to $100-200 speaker cables from those two or from Kimber. I actually prefer Audioquest's 14 ga. two conductor in-wall speaker wire, terminated with simple banana plugs. It's 2 14 ga. wires, one in a red jacket and one in a black one, with a white outer jacket.
It makes more difference if u can avoid mains cable in the wall... I have a female mains plug very close t my mains.. Avoiding 15 metres of mains makes a big difference and it is free.. I have not spent 2 grand on audiograde in wall cable
Nice honest talk! I would have prefer a 12 AWG pure copper cable on that system to compare to the very good cable because nobody wood put a 16 AWG on that... question: apart from speaker placement, is a very good DAC a must? Reviewers says all the time that this DAC have much more depth than this "500$ one that have "flat" soundstage... not easy to balance all the components and wires in a limited budget even up to 2-3k
In my opinion, the DAC is the second most important item after the speakers. It makes a much bigger difference than the amp.
My experience is that unless you have about a $10k system, you wont notice much difference between a $500 DAC and a $2000 DAC... for a $2-3k system ,my opinion is just stick to whatever DAC is in your equipment. I know from experience its a hard rabbit hole to NOT go down ..LOL!
The gauge really has nothing to do with the clear audible differences in these two cables.
@@dannyrichie9743 Is it true that everything travels on the outside of the wire and not through the inside?
Plus it's thickness and type of material covering each wire that makes the biggest difference?
Lone Star Corvette Club! I have a supercharged blue C5 Z06!!
I’d just pick the one that sounded best. Either one’s different or ther the same. I have 2 relatively good sounding sets of speaker cables and I tried one pair that eventually fatigued my ears and settled on the ones that didn’t. Details are great but it’s easier to choose after becoming familiar with the sound. I’ve been initially impressed a few times with gear that eventually revealed unmusical tendencies. There are unmusical artifacts in all music reproducers. I just tinker with my system to lessen the worst. Sometimes it seems to sing, sometimes it doesn’t. Thanks for your interesting shows.
This is a great reply. It's interesting how many other people don't go with their gut and constantly try to discredit what is so obvious to the ear and soul when it comes to system tuning. People seem to be afraid of believing the obvious, simply because it "shouldn't be true".
Some years ago, me and a skeptical friend were in a high end workshop. The spokesman(?) changed back and forth a DIGITAL cable. Remember, bits are bits! It was easy to pick up diferences on drums cymbals. Then he looked at me and said: "Now I have a conflict between my mind and my ears". I nerver forget that :)
ones and zeros are still just voltage differences, so I can see how there could be a difference
TO double down on snake oil like this broke my brain.
I have blue Jean speaker cables. Wonder if I’d hear a difference if I switch to these.
(My room is well treated)
No
It's a US$ 10,00 speaker cable versus a US$ 140,00 one (for a 10 ft cable), tested with his own speakers, in his own treated room, with the songs he chose, and he guessed it 8 out of 10 (when 5 in 10 would be considered sheer luck). We should also consider the possibility that, having built the cable, he would know the sonic signature of the material, and was able to pick up the differences, not necessarily the BETTER one. Congratulations on the courage and honesty of trying your own products on a blind test (God knows that most hifi manufacturers wouldn't do that to not risk embarrasing themselves), but as Danny himself points out at the end of the video, you must have excellent speakers, properly set up on a proper room, with the right equipment, with excellent recordings, in order to start picking up the differences between 2 cables.
A super high end and perfectly set up system is not necessary to hear the differences. What I was pointing out in the end is that it is more important to take care of those areas first so that the differences that cable can bring to the table can be fully realized.
Compare cables with the same measured resistance next time. Very good but still inexpensive shielded twisted fiber copper is going to dover well head to head. Also next time you need to double blind your experiment so the one changing does not know which is which.
We have choices to make. When I began chasing recordings, I realized that my system was now more revealing than fun.
So many reviewers use the term "believe" when talking about cables, it undermines everything. Either your system reveals the differences or it doesn't.
that is an impressive result!
Thank you so much Guys for all of your hard work, and I have learned a lot from this video! I totally agree with you that we can't do measurements on harmonics. It's similar to vinyl/analog vs. digital sources.
Awesome job. I like it when channel creators get together and make good content. Keep rocking! 🤘🏼🎸🤘🏼
This is awesome, guys. I really enjoyed the video.
Jay, we've all seen that you've been using/ reviewing Danny's cables for months now. I assume you now have a sense of what impact they have on a system. A/B comparison aside, were you noticing a difference during the tests as well?
He actually answers this in this video - yes he heard the difference
What was the length of both cables? I think if you had used a slightly better (low end) cable it would be much harder to tell the difference, especially for lengths under 3 meters.
Do you prefer Butch Vig or Steve Albini?
Sorry, total noob here. Can tube connectors slot into speaker wire posts on my amplifier? I've only used speaker wires and banana plugs so far
Bananas fit into the female end of a tube connector, but the male end doesn't fit a standard binding post.
@@G3rain1 So 1 end will be tube connector (to GR research speaker) and the other banana plug to my amplifier?
@@Kevin-jp4rb yes.