My “something is deeply wrong here” moment was when I had come home for spring break from college, and my mother and other sisters had left for a vacation, my brother, father, and I remained. I walked downstairs to make myself dinner and my dad was there and was like “can you go grocery shopping for us? I don’t really know how to do it.” We both had time off that day, he was a 50 year old man telling his 19 year old daughter that he assumes she knows how to grocery shop better because I’m…a woman? Not that I didn’t know how to feed myself but the scary thing is that he didn’t. I vowed to enter a relationship where my partner would never utter those words, especially to our children
I encountered the exact situation when my mum went away. Dad shuffled up and asked what was for dinner. To which 19 year old me said "Whatever you make for yourself"
I go to my parents' house for dinner every Sunday. My younger adult brother and sister still live with them. Until about last year when my brother started learning how to cook in order to prep his lunches, every time my mom would go out of town (or her birthday, or for "Mom does no work" camping trips, or mother's day) my dad would be like "So Anna, what are you making for dinner?" "Anna, can you come over early to help cook?" (and then I'd just end up having to do it all myself). I feel exhausted on behalf of my mother, who shoulders that responsibility nearly every fucking day and comes back from every reprieve and has to get right back to it. Now that my brother has learned to cook, he and my dad and my sister are able to rotate dinner responsibilities while my mom is out of town helping my older sister with the grandbabies. My role now for Sunday dinner is bringing a dessert, and that is my contribution. Now I need to figure out a similar issue with my partner 🙄
The first time I got "the motherhood penalty" was in high school. I was up for a science scholarship. I was a shoe-in. I had the best grades and best scores, already been accepted to a top school. But I didn't get the scholarship. When I asked my physics teacher why, he said, "You'll just end up getting married and having kids anyway. We want the money to go to someone who will really do something." So yeah. It's very real.
A very familiar story! Despite having the best grades in my family, having one of the top SAT scores at a very competent high school and getting accepted at my dream university (close enough to commute), my parents refused to help me in any way, whatsoever, including providing any financial info because: Unlike my brothers, I would not have to eventually support a family and I should just be a secretary until I found a husband. I found an office job, went to university at night, got married, had three kids (who I basically raised on my own) and became the chief earner. Meanwhile my husband retired early due to his ignoring health concerns and I’ll have to work until 70.
I remember my ex once told me that once he left I'd realize how much he actually did around the house... ya'll I have like 5 hobbies now and have so much free time it's absurd 🤣
My ex said the same! He was like your life will be so hard without me… Um, I hired a landscaper and clean and decorate my house with no worry of critique on timing or outcome. I go on weekend trips while my son is with his dad. I am living a fantastic life I couldn’t have dreamed of while married!
Same! My ex was supposedly so helpful:/ My chores got cut over half. His laundry was bulk of our loads. He's messy but oblivious to it (leaves crumbs and stuff everywhere DESPITE working in restaurants and retail!). Dishes were cut down bc I actually will reuse a water glass throughout the day:/ I also felt more free to make simpler meals (breakfast for dinner, heating up sausage to serve over premade rice, etc.). Oh and huge emotional weight lifted so I had more energy. Seriously I worried so much about leaving and almost didn't but so glad I did!
@@mrslvw I had similar experiences with my ex. Im now single parent working full time, studying once a week and my life is so much better than when my ex was in the picture and I was a stay at home mother.
Yeah now that you're gone I've realized how much you did around here... How much of the pop cans you left around, how much piss you left on the toilet seat, how much laundry you left on the floor... You did a lot! Is what I would be saying in that situation lol
@@lauraigla6319 lol yep! The worst thing is as a woman I judge myself against immaculate standards ala Martha Stewart and clearly fall short then feel like a bad housekeeper. Men don't even judge themselves- just doing some basic tiny chore ONCE makes them husband of the year:/ Like him picking up an old stack of junk mail somehow beats me cooking a whole holiday meal, which even if gourmet is below pare if I don't also hand embroider personalized placemats:/
I am so over the McDonald’s coffee joke. That coffee was beyond boiling due to the machine not being serviced correctly. That woman wasn’t just slightly burned… she suffered 3rd burned & spent years & years in pain.
So glad someone commented on that, it being frivolous and a matter of personal responsibility is just McDonald's PR astroturfing to cover up the fact that they were negligent.
She had third degree burns ON HER VULVA! HER LABIA FUSED! I don’t care what you think about how litigious American society is: coffee should not be served at a temperature that will DISFIGURE YOU if it spills on you.
The machine *was* serviced correctly - McDonalds's INTENTION was to serve coffee far too hot. ("It's takeout, the customer isn't going to drink it until they're 10 minutes down the road: we super-heat it so it will be the perfect temperature *then*.")
There’s a documentary on this. MCDonald’s purposely makes their coffee too hot. The documentation subpoenaed during the court battle proved they knew, instructed franchisees to follow this practice, had records of numerous injuries spanning many years. However, the income generated from this practice was greater than the payouts for injuries. So, they continued. This was not an accident, one off, or machine defect. This happened because McDonald’s values profits over people.
@@iloveprivacy8167 And they knew it was seriously harming people but they did some analysis and found out that it would be cheaper for them to allow the coffee to seriously injure people and pay their medical bills than change their coffee makers nationwide. That callousness was what led the jury to fine McDonald's the profits McDonalds made on coffee in one day. It was to teach them a lesson. All the old lady wanted was her medical bills covered
Chelsea I really enjoyed this interview with Eve. I was married to a “toddler husband” for 30 years. His parents thought men should be “waited on”. I was not raised this way so there were numerous arguments. I was caught in the generation between non-working and working women. I worked but did most everything at home too. We finally divorced after the kids were gone. I am 73 and a big fan of your videos, I have recommended them to my granddaughters.
Can't imagine what you've been through. Never forget that it is because of women like you that we've gained as much freedom to be our own people and discuss these issues now. Thank you
Recommend this to your grandsons, too. I've already got agreement with my unmarried son to give me 6 hours over 6 weeks to listen to Fair Play on audiobook together. Giving men the knowledge to avoid an angry, bitter spouse in his later years is an incredible gift
That quote is BS. If you have to work two jobs, plus do the house work, do tell, how "being interested in your own life" will change that situation? Create 2 more extra hours in a day to sleep? Increase your salary so that you can have just one job? The antidote to brun out is paid vacation. Living wages. Paid sick leave. Maternity leave. Flexible working hours. Working from home. Job protection so that you are not fired while you dare take your vacation. Changing the system as opposed to pushing the solution to the individual.
@@alaakelacurrently burnt out as fuck, and I agree, this is square one. However, I do believe OP makes a good point. Once you HAVE some energy you really need to direct efforts to yourself and not start with everyone around you. Then it's just a recipe for burnout with nothing to show, again
@@alaakelaLiterally all the things you listed are meant to aid individuals in becoming interested/invested in their own lives again. Vacation time IS meant for self-interest and renewal. There’s no implicit contradiction here.
@@Window4503I think you misunderstood their point. It sounds like she's saying exactly what you're saying - that in order to be interested in one's life, one has to have time to do that first. So she's arguing that the system needs to be changed such that people get more: PTO, vacation time, etc.
I'd also bring up that parents are doing their sons no favors by refusing to teach them how to cook and clean. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the standard idea of a filthy bachelor pad isn't healthy for men mentally. You've essentially given your son the gift of learned helplessness and the idea that living in filth is cool because "lol housework is woman's work I'm not gay bro". Which is just kinda pathetic. EVERYONE should learn these basic tasks.
It’s true it starts young. There’s studies showing daughters spend more hours a week doing chores than sons. Probably a lot is teaching girls the daily grind tasks like cooking, cleaning, laundry vs boys taking out the trash or cutting the grass once a week. Have your kids alternate so they’re capable in all areas and share the time fairly.
I remember my parents, aunts & uncles laughing and mocking that my male cousin didn't know how to cook and clean when he went off to college. Like, it's their fault he doesn't know that stuff!
Just practice. Pick one thing you want to learn to do (E.g. cook a curry, iron a shirt, develop the habit of washing dishes before bed, clean the shower/bath) and work on it over a few weeks. There’s loads of online resources about how to grow a habit. Once you feel confident in your new skill, pick the next thing on your list and learn that one.
I was married to a man child who believed housekeeping was a "woman's job" because "men are the protectors and women are natural homemakers. 🙄He would come home from work, plop down after smoking, and watch cartoons -"too tired" to help out, even though I worked a full time job, was in grad school AND volunteered.🙄 I knew a year in I was not putting up with this and got divorced.
Gender roles are so convenient! When you’re a man. 🙄 The whole patriarchy thing about men being protectors is so insidious…it’s almost like a veiled threat. Like, why exactly do I need this protection? Who’s threatening me? 🧐
Not in this house. When my kids were babies (twins)I left them with my husband (their dad) and he called to ask what to feed them. I said “think of what you would feed them if I wasn’t in the picture. Figure it out.” He got on the ball immediately. Since that day he has cared for the family as much as I do.
I personally think this is one of main reasons that divorces are happening more often. I found I had a lot more time and energy to spend with my children, my house was cleaner, my life was less stressful, and I was financially better off once I became single.
I grew up seeing a stay at home mom and working/full time school dad work equally in terms of home labor. My dad was gone more, due to work and full time night classes, but he came home from work, did dinner and fed us and bathed us and put us to bed at least 5 nights a week because my mom had done wake ups, breakfast, school transport for older ones, nap schedules and activities for littles, lunches, etc. Once I was old enough to see, I noticed that they both changed a diaper, did dirty dishes, fixed a snack, replaced a lightbulb, put shoes away as soon as they saw them. No one had to be assigned anything, they were both truly just that thoughtful to do the thing as soon as they saw it needed doing. Truly upped my standards in regards to partners.
Same. My dad even did my hair occasionally. I try to avoid incompetent men like the plague. I think some people believe men are somehow inherently incapable of doing equal labor. My dad even takes care of my grandmother. He does her laundry and everything. They didn’t touch on this but I work in healthcare and when I meet older women that are hospitalized the daughter is often expected to be the primary caregiver and decision maker. I’ve heard more often than not from my female patients “thank God I had daughters”.
My parents were the same. Before the 2009 recession really made us need two incomes my mother was stay at home and dad was working full time, but he's a morning person (my mother absolutely is not) so he'd wake me up, make breakfast, pack a lunch and get me to the bus stop before heading to work. My mom helped me with my homework in the afternoon and cooked dinner, and then they'd split childcare evenly for the evenings and during the weekend. She did most of the cooking and cleaning, but he'd vacuum whenever there was a need and did all the laundry, and when she went back to work he got better at cooking so he could take some of the weight off. I never felt like my father was absent in any way, and they've always been partners in every sense of the word. I'm so glad I had such a wonderful model for a healthy division of tasks.
Different path, but similar result - my mom always made Way More Money than my dad. Both when he could work and couldn't (both for economy reasons and him-doing-the-work-was-the-easiest-way-to-fix-the-fixer-upper-house reasons), he was always super involved in making sure the household was taking care of. Like he recently disclosed to me that his family only ate breakfast together on Christmas and Easter (and maybe the occasional birthday) and that's why he wanted to make sure he and my sister and I ate breakfast together (almost) every weekday morning. Dinners were probably about half and half on each parent, and both my sister and I had activities planned by both parents. He managed the transportation to school from ages 5 or 6 onward for both us, and knew all our doctors' names. A lot of our extended family wasn't like this though - my aunt's husband neither worked consistently nor did housework. My dad's brothers largely regard cooking, cleaning, and household management as "women's work." My mother's male cousins are by and large what can best be described as profoundly useless - they truly seem to regard the appearance of family dinners as magic, the arrival of their children at school as a given, and the management of their own damn wardrobes as someone else's problem. More broadly, socially, it didn't escape me that my father was the only dad (or occasionally one of two) who volunteered at my sister and I's school. Of my friends, those who had stay-at-home mothers honestly seemed to have the better deal, because they weren't doing BOTH working and full-time momming, which the majority of the outside-the-home-employed mothers had to. I don't want children, but I don't want to be someone's replacement mother either, especially because I work too. This has forever altered my expectations of partners, and is definitely part of why I'm still single.
Wow, glad to hear that exists! I divorced, largely on this issue. Truly not feeling like I had much value in the relationship...from his point of view. 7 years later still glad I did it. Kids doing well & I'm way happier.
The amount of shock and disbelief I get from other women when I tell them how involved my husband is in the care of our infant son. It honestly says a lot about how much woman are expected to care for our careers and home life. I honestly would not have considered becoming a mother if I did not have a partner putting in the same amount of work in raising our son.
Omg yes. Here in Sweden men are generally more involved and mine definitely is (we usually say jokingly that he is much better at being a housewife than I am), and yet when I went back to work after our first child when she was 6 months (childcare here starts at 1yo) there were so many who asked me "and where is the baby?" ummm with her dad or course? Duh
@@oxigen85 just bc doesn't happen for you doesn't mean doesn't happen for other people. Especially considering is more common in Scandinavian countries for families to be closer than in America.. makes it more likely for grandparents to care for young ones... Also if you get maternity leave longer than 1 year in Sweden i don't see anything wrong with people just being curious about who is caring for the baby. Like" I know X just had a baby who is still young, she's at work so I wonder who is caring for the baby out of curiosity" Why does everything need to be offensive nowadays
I'm childfree so if I can help it I'm not around parenting conversations often, but I nearly threw up in my mouth upon hearing a group of dads proudly state that they knew absolutely nothing about their children's lives: their friends' names, their allergies or medical providers, the fact that they had a cheerleading competition that week. They joked: "Why is the school calling me to ask about something related to my kid? Call my wife about that, I have no idea!" And everyone laughed and commiserated with their own similar story like that was something to be proud of, except the married gay man in the group who quietly suggested the concept of a shared calendar.
This makes me wonder why men like this have children at all, if they are so totally non-interested in their lifes. If there is one person in the world you should be interested in, it should be your own child. If you cannot provide that, maybe don't be a parent.
@@LillyJeanne lol cause all the work is done by a woman, and all the perks go to a man. He gets to continue his family name, gets increase in income and status etc. While doing less than 1/10 of the work his wife does
@@KateeAngel Then why its the women who want childern and not men? lmao. It was your idea, in case of divorce its the woman who gets the kids, ect. And lets not forget that its the man that mostly pays the bills for the house and family the woman wanted. He pays for that kid food, shelter , medical bills, ect.
@@alexforce9 Did you watch the video? Chelsea goes over that- even when women work longer hours and/or are the breadwinner, they still are the primary caregivers and do more housework. Regardless of employment status, it's abhorrent that some men don't provide any caregiving for their own children. If a man has that attitude, he needs to get a vasectomy, not have children
@@DonnaDoveWinters And how many women are the bread winners in the family?Like 3 procent? Way to feel like a victim despite not being the bread winner. lol, women like you dont deserve husbands and kids.
I had a discussion with my ex husband about starting a family but he had made it clear that his job will only be to impregnate me and won’t be doing anything to raise a child. I am so thankful that I gathered a courage and got out of that marriage before having a child. Even though I’d be sick to death my ex won’t be there at all to look after me and his only excuse would be - oh I am always travelling so I can’t be there for you… As gut wrenching it was to end 10 years of relationship, I’ve never felt better ever in my life… We all deserve better! ❤❤❤
@@jswan312 sometimes known suck is more comfortable than the unknown. It's easy to let the months turn into years while you're keeping the rest of your life going.
@@sendnoodle5 "Known suck" is an excellent term that I will now incorporate into my vocab 😄 There are excellent resources out there for the "why women stay" question.
What makes me so angry about this situation in my case is watching my male partner be proactive about things he "sees"/cares about. No one has to spoon feed him how to research video games or figure out some computer setup. He plans, executes, and maintains these things all the time. But any sort of domestic duty and he's completely lost has no idea where to start to figure out anything. It's insulting to my intelligence for him to say he doesn't know or understand these things when I watch him intuitively figure out way more complex stuff all the time. And I'm sure he's tired of my anger but I'm tired of being angry and having the same conversations over and over and over. And in my households at least no initiative is taken until I'm upset. When I ask reasonably and calmly and give gentle reminders I'm blown off. If for some reason this relationship doesn't work out I don't know that I'd be willing to cohabitate with a culturally typical man again. This is exhausting.
Similarly, when guys move on to another woman with the mentality of "trading the old model in for a new model", I have always thought about the guy's boat or car/truck that they refuse to part with. Why is an old machine model great while the woman you married is suddenly old and outdated and the man decides she needs to be tossed out in the dump?
Have you pointed this out to him? I had similar issues with my husband and had a really honest conversation about how upset his actions were making me and he really has started to make changes
@@snoopstheboss994 I see that she said she is tired of the conversations, I meant to say I guess that maybe they are conversations had out of anger, or a conversation that is for whatever reason unproductive. It's possible the conversation just needs to happen in a different way
@Bonnie Selim i got what you're saying. And yes - I've brought up this issue calmly, lightheartedly, angrily, in writing. And I personally am the type of person that gets frustrated repeating myself. So if I'm angry it's usually because I've already brought an issue up when not angry and nothing has happened. Mine says what he thinks I want to hear in the moment and then either completely forgets or just stops doing whatever he agreed to do. It's bizarre and frustrating because we don't have this problem with anything else I can think of. Its only cleaning. I threw in the towel since posting and scheduled a maid that he pays every cent for. This feeds into cleaning being someone else concern but I realized after posting I'm not gonna keep going back and forth with him about this, and I don't want to throw away an entire and generally healthy relationship over it either. Thankfully he is in a position financially to secure a solution to this problem in our home. I know this isn't an option for alot of households and even if it is financially there are....cultural struggles with this move that I'm still working through. All this to say I understand why hiring help even if you can afford to, isn't an easy fix.
the "women's time is like sand / men's is like diamonds" metaphor is particularly apt because we are in a sand shortage because of the construction industry & diamonds have historically been kept artificially scarce to keep prices high
Just a positive note here: I’m a working parent and my husband does equal or greater home labor as me. He cooks, does dishes, does laundry, takes kids to the doctor alone, etc. It’s so sad to me though how much my relatives praise him for being an amazing dad but rarely praise me for being a good mom. I’ve been told I have an impressive career but rarely that I’m an impressive mother. The standards are frustrating. Edit: I am very happy with my life and all that is in it :). I think there are improvements in how society views the “roles” of men and women.
@kimberlysnooks8311 I hear you. My husband and I take more or less equal responsibility for cooking and household chores. I have heard comments like, "it's so nice he does ALL the cooking". Everyone says what a great chef he is and knows what his specialty items are. When I cook and make speciality item, people praise it but those somehow get forgotten later.
A dad needs only to remember his kid's last night and society hands him a trophy. Mom's need to sacrafice her whole life and get nothing. Its sickening. That's one of the many reasons I would NEVER use my body to carry a man's child. The large majority of them don't deserve children. Women carrying a baby then birth that baby and then nourish said baby with her body, only to give the child the man's last name will never make sense to me.
Ali Wong had a great speech about that. "It takes so little for a man to be praised as a good dad and it takes so little for a woman to be called a bad mom".
While my dad wasn't a complete toddler, he was a narcissist. He made a lot of money, and used it as a mental and emotional whip to keep, me, my mom, and my brother in line. Looking back though, my mom did EVERYTHING for him so he could make that money - she would have wiped his ass for him so he could take another phone call if need be. And the reward she got was to just be constantly told how she was the childish one. I think this fueled my frustration with how American society still devalues women, whether they work professionally for not. I love the line where they said "other countries decided to have social safety nets. We decided to have women"
So you could say I am probably one of the men you are describing in this comment. I have course M7 through this whole well I don’t have a bad word for it. I’m just gonna call it what it is rant. In short, being in and out of relationships, ultimately to being in my current relationship and longest running relationship/marriage, I can definitely tell you that women say one thing, but her actions tell a different tale. No amount of estrogen, field, venting, or that hating comments are going to change my mind about it to be honest. I love the lion from madman along the lines of “what do women want? Who cares… 🥃 “ Because we do live in the freest countries in the world, and I am telling you this, as a foreigner that came to the US undocumented, women have way more rights than men and today’s society. So this whole BS about women being victims of financial abuse, and all of that stuff, Complete total BS. I am listening to this while I’m currently doing arduous work under the sun in south Texas . Well, my wife gets to take care of our baby and go to her sister’s graduation, possibly eating on Monday that of course, my jobs and my many forms of income provides. Because I want her to be home and taking care of the babies. so that when I come home, my heart is filled with their love after a long day of work. I’m sorry your dad was just a piece of furniture. We do not need to get rid of toxic masculinity as they say, we need masculinity to raise better men and women.
The craziest thing I have experienced as my husband and I work towards equal chore responsibilities is the reaction from other women. They are shocked that my husband does my laundry, vacuums, cooks, and cleans. Like, he’s not my child, he has to participate in the housework. Let’s build each other up instead of telling other women that this is a weird thing. It should be normal!!
Exactly! I grew up with a dad very involved in the house. Mines not as equal but I certainly try and I have gotten a lot of grief from others for demanding that my husband show up in our lives!
As a man who does the housework, I am surprised by women's reactions too, but for a different reason. I was in the army, we had to keep the place spotless, daily. One girlfriend said she broke up with me because she didn't understand her gender role in our relationship. If I do the cooking, cleaning, gardening, repairing things around the house, and work full time, then what was she supposed to do? We keep in touch. She just had a baby with a guy she readily admits is utterly useless at home. Another girlfriend I lived with for five years dropped all her clothes on the floor. Clean, dirty, never worn, worn out, all went on the floor. She could watch TV all weekend, but couldn't find the time to sort and fold her clothes. I don't remember why she left, but I remember the housework reduced.
This issue is so pervasive that you don't have to be married or in a relationship to experience it, just live with a man who was raised this way -- roommates, family, etc. I thought that I could escape this burden by remaining single, but nope!
YUP! I had a male roommate once (totally platonic), and I'd light myself on fire before I'd do that again. He expected me to pick up after him, left filthy messes everywhere, and exploded in anger when I eventually stopped covering for his laziness.
I married a man child 🙄 is so fucking exhausting. I already asked for a divorce because I just can’t keep doing this. I do want shared custody for the reason that he will be forced to figure things out on his own. He also has a video game addiction and it bothers me that he has 7 game counsels, tons of games and unopened boxes and I can’t even get a professional haircut because is too expensive 😡 I’m so done with being with someone like that. I’m about to go back into the workforce and feel so happy for becoming independent. Can’t wait to get out of here.
I dealt with a lot of this. I am divorced now (very amicable) and co-parenting is the best thing ever. He always loved the kids and being a dad, so this was an easy choice. My life is so much better in many ways and he finally gets it. I will say I still had to let go of control and I trust him with the kids. Best of luck to you...get an awesome and expensive haircut asap. You deserve it sis...
Good for you! I was married to a man child too, except he would come home, plop down after smoking, and watch cartoons "too tired" to help out, even though I worked a full time job, was in grad school AND volunteered.🙄 I knew a year in I was not putting up with this and got divorced. He thought housekeeping was a "woman's job" and he was an "Alpha male"🙄
My husband did these things that are traditionally attributed to the mother: he'd get off work if a kid was sick, take them to the doctor, said he had to leave to get the kids from school, said he couldn't go out of town for a week for some conference because of the kids and also stayed at home with them during the pandemic when the schools were closed so I could work. He got so... much... sh*t from his colleagues and bosses. "Can't your wife do that?" "Why doesn't your wife do that?" etc. He works in car repairs, a very macho environment, but he actually got the more sh*t from the only woman boss he had. She had children. That really surprised us. They lay off the pressure when during the pandemic he submitted a document from my job saying I was an essential worker (working in healthcare) to be able to keep the kids at home. If he was someone who gave a flying f about all that toxic masculinity coming his way, it would've fallen on me.
Im the only female in my office and often times have been in my career. Don't ask me why but often times it seems people forget I'm a woman (I don't mind it too much, just find it interesting as a social experiment). Sometimes they will mentuon theit wife doing this or that for them and how they are thankfuk they don't have to do said thing. I sometimes have mentioned "Damn I wish I had a stay at home wife to do that for me." And they look at me in the funniest way. So many different realizations going on when they remember I am a woman and a dude could expect that of me while I do the same job as them. And other things. I don't know why people forget I'm a chick but it has opened some doors to interesting conversations and I hope I have got a few thinking. I will say, the fact that they don't think of me as a woman, but equal. and instead consider me a bro, is another weird thing to think about.
That's one of the topics I hope is covered in the book: how to handle external pressures and conversations. I have two friends who are a couple and they could take parental leave equally and that's what they chose to do. What happened at their respective work places? They pressured her to take more time ("the kids need their mom") and him to take less time ("we need you here"). Both had leadership positions at their respective jobs. It's a story I've heard over and over. Thankfully they both stuck to their guns and it has paid off immensely: they both know how to parent their kids without the other so time off is truly time off and they both kept their high earning jobs. Guess who can afford to hire someone for the work neither of them likes to do? I'm always so baffled by the "traditional family" advocates who say kids need a mother and a father, but simultaneously promote an idea of the father that doesn't really involve parenting at all. That argument has never been about the health of the children- if it were, they would actually care about what girls can hope to become as they become women. It's about men getting to keep their status.
@@focusedficus I disagree with your view of the traditional family structure. It was often easier for everyone, the wife, husband, and kids. The arrangement allowed each person to do their 40 hour week either at home or at work. Now, people are required to be doing at least 60 hours if you split the chores 50/50. God forbid it’s not split evenly because then women have to work 70+ hours a week. How is that better?
This is one of the reasons I decided as a kid that marriage wasn’t for me. I hated hearing all the adult women around me about how their husband was their 3rd or 4th child and would fret anytime he had to “babysit” his own children for a couple hours once in a blue moon.
What Chelsea said in the 34th minute is so true! My sister was also struggling with all her household duties during the marriage, but as soon as she got divorced and her ex-husband was actually taking care of their child 50% of the time, she suddenly found herself massively relieved, with so much more spare time.
I was born in the 80's and I have NEVER seen a heterosexual marriage where the woman's work was considered as valuable as the man's. The more independent women tend to stay single and they have a rough go of it. My own mother paid lip service to equality, while encouraging her daughters to be completely subservient to our dad. However, I work at an office where women are paid equally and respected. There's extended mat leave, and if the mom (as she frequently does) decides to leave the workforce, the firm eats it as it's the cost of doing business. They continue to hire young women without discriminating.
Based on my own experience (for what it's worth), I have seen solo women who are tall poppies have to work harder and suffer greater loneliness than their equally talented male counterparts. They have to be strong ALL the time.@@olilumgbalu5653
HOLY CRAP this podcast completely opened my eyes to something I just assumed was natural: that my time and labor is worth less because I'm a woman. This is amazing, and thank you Chelsea and the whole team for getting Eve on to talk about this issue that affects over 50% of the human population.
"Guarding men's time." That's an interesting point of view I hadn't really looked at before. As a husband that works full time+ and handles the school/doctor and ~ 1/2 the social engagements, it is really hard to get communication from those parties. They always reach out to my wife first despite repeated requests to make me the main point of contact. Every new school year I have to go through the process of making sure they email/call me to communicate and the same goes with every single doctor visit. So many messages get missed because they reach out to the wrong parent. I find it extremely frustrating while dealing with it but I never considered the societal conditioning aspect of it.
Part of my work involves contacting a lot of parents about their kids and while I try to be equitable in which parent I'm contacting, I still end up reaching way more moms than dads. And because the moms are answering, calling back, and engaging with me, it makes less and less sense to target my time and my energy equitably and more and more sense to target just moms, which means I see even less engagement with dads. It's a vicious feedback cycle. I've got to spend my time and energy as efficiently as possible to do my job, and until half the child-rearing population hits the point you're at, I'm incentivized and heavily conditioned to assume that moms will engage and dads will not.
Thats interesting. Where are you from? Here in Australia in the child's file contacts are in order or priority, sometimes 1st point of contact is not even mom or dad at all
Interesting. Do you have habit of not picking up your calls? Usually my kids school will call me and if I don’t pick up they call my husband. Maybe ask your wife to not pick up calls?
@@ang5035 I answer almost all my calls and return the missed ones. My wife does not and rarely checks her voicemail. The reasons aren't relevant except as it pertains to the frustrations of dealing with a society that routinely calls the mother for communication purposes. About 50% of the time they will call me after they don't reach her, otherwise they either continue to try and contact her, leave her a message which I usually won't get, or I will have to reach out to them to finish whatever is needed, if I'm aware of it.
@@rba4377 I'm in the US. Most often, my experience is, even if we're both listed as contacts, I may or may not be contacted next even if they cannot reach my wife. I used to see it as a form of reverse sexism, in which it's just expected that the men don't handle these responsibilities and so there's an almost concerted effort not to reach out even if directed to. Now, thanks to the above video, I've got a broader context with which to examine it. It doesn't make it any less of a pain in the ass, but at least I can see it from a different point of view.
In a similar vein, I went on a couple of dates with a guy who said the same thing about exercising, like “you’ll get me to exercise.” No thanks-I don’t need the burden of being your personal trainer, pal. 🙄
This issue is exactly why I prefer to be single. Too many times having a partner gives the illusion that there will be a 50/50 split of labor when the real split is 80/20 if you're lucky and at the same time the actual work load has increased because there's twice the dishes, laundry, trash etc. No thanks.
And God forbid you suggest paying less of the bills since you have most of the housework load…. Because THEEEEN (and only then) it’s an unfair distribution of responsibility 🙄
100%. I wish more women would acknowledge this early on vs. being so consumed by the societal expectation to find a husband and get a ring. Getting married does not mean you improved your situation and path in life.
@@rba4377 so, just to share my thoughts on your comment: 1- I would assume it depends on the career and country, i.e. countries like Netherlands or Germany have very balanced working hours. You don't need to work overtime to focus on your career. Moreover, if the couple has enough money to pay for someone to do all the chores they can surely give quality time to their children 2- That's more likely derived from gender norms, the expectation is set on women to be good mothers and men to be good providers. However, it feels a bit like we're seeing a different point of discussion, I did not perceive the point to be "the wife should be more successful than her husband", rather "men and women should be equally paid for the same work AND women should not be punished career wise due motherhood" 3- This is totally anecdotal, you're taking your one friend as example to ask "why women can't talk about it", anyway, I wouldn't know about your friend but you could ask yourself to understand her position 4- Sure. It would be even better if the government could extend father's paternity leave for more than some days / weeks, like Iceland which offers 13 weeks per parent plus other 13 weeks to split however they see fit. Did I miss something in the conversation about sending women right away to work against their will? (honestly asking because I had this as background while doing other stuff so I may have missed some parts) 5- Of course you can ask about those things as someone who works in childcare. As the father of your children it sounds very weird to me that you don't know whether to feed your children or not, I can't think of a scenario where that makes sense, like ask your children if they're hungry and that's that, unless they're babies or have special needs, but then, wouldn't you be taking over their care from someone and ask that person instead? 6- That's very nice, of course being in a relationship is about supporting each other and I'm glad to read your partner is respectful and kind to you. To me the discussion here is about the extra burden and expectation that depending on your gender you already know how to do something, or excessively relying on your partner for even the little things which will overwhelm them instead of helping 7- From a quick search I find "Overall, while there may be some minor differences in the structure and function of the brains of men and women, these differences do not significantly affect cognitive abilities or behavior. The brain is a complex organ, and its structure and function can vary greatly among individuals of both genders.". So let's say, yes, the brains are different, that doesn't mean we're unable to help each other in a couple to balance the workload of the household, it just means each person should take the tasks they think they'll be better at, not "oh you're better than me at everything so I'll do nothing". I think the fact of taking ownership as they discussed with the tooth fairy is a nice example of doesn't matter if you don't do it perfectly, because you have ownership and I trust you, I won't blame you for a mistake nor burden myself with everything "And yes, society needs to learn the value of unpaid labour." totally agree 👍
@@sarahhavillamelooliveira5825 Very interesting! It is my choice too...I had a child 4 months ago and I plan to return to work next September, 5 days a week, 6 hours daily. I can say, so far so good! You definitely need time for a newborn. All the best!
Yep my bf said he would pretend to be awful at chores as a child over and over so his mother would get exasperated and do the chore permanently instead. He still constantly needs tutorials when I show him how the washer, dryer, dishwasher or when any detailed/careful cleaning needs to be done. I’m certain I teach him to do the same exact chores every 1-3 years. Worse than a child cause you’d expect an adult to remember anything. He knows how to dismantle any car and what guitar was used on 90s metal albums but doesn’t know the right way to get a stain out??? I think it is actual incompetence in reality but it seems suspicious if you zoom out. I think it is not weaponized so much as so normalized. I’m frankly sick of being 80% of the brainpower of our 2-person household. I’m gonna look into this Fair Play thing.
I'm part of a support group with other women. One husband claims he cannot help with household chores because it triggers his trauma from growing up with hoarder parents. The wife works and takes care of 6 kids. He apparently nags her all the time because there is clutter and messiness in the house. I cannot believe so many women put up with this crap, I am going to recommend this book to her next week. (My relationship isn't perfect but my husband is incredibly supportive, involved with our son and helps with as much around the house as his work schedule allows)
While she definitely shouldn't put it with it, I will confirm that being raised by hoarders really does mess with you, I got pushed the other way, my tolerance for mess is way, way too high. I'll tidy things back to fully clean once they near my threshold, but frankly if it's not liable to rot it isn't getting dealt with until it hits that point. I know it's bad, it's just really hard to see it as a problem.
I’m no psychologist, and I apologize if this sounds insensitive, but that sounds like a pretty damn convenient trauma. He doesn’t have trauma when shit piles up and starts to clutter up, he’s fine living with shit hoarded, but as soon as it comes time to clean, suddenly the trauma comes? Sounds very convenient to me. And they have 6 kids? This guy has trauma from being in a crowded home and he has 6 mother fucking kids? Something doesn’t seem right. I would expect someone who has trauma from hoarding parents to grow up into a neat freak who lives in a minimalist house.
@@erebusvonmori8050 I can totally relate to your comment. I grew up in a hoarding situation (it's ongoing, but I thankfully don't live there anymore), and I also feel it has heightened my tolerance for messiness/dirtiness. My apartment is often tidy, but not "clean" by any means. That is, until I know someone is coming over to visit, then my partner and I will frantically deep clean, lol. But unless we are having guests over, it's really hard to feel motivated to tidy up regularly, because honestly and like you said, I just don't see it as that big of a deal (especially when compared to how bad I know things COULD be, ie.: hoarding). So it feels like as long as I am not letting things get as bad as the situation I grew up in, then it's probably fine, even though that's probably unhealthy :/
@@erebusvonmori8050 I have the opposite problem, lol. One of my brothers has issues cleaning/getting rid of things because of the hoarding in our household, but I went to the other extreme and became full minimalist. I try to hold on to items, but throw out things if I don't use them within a month or two and end up having to re-buy things I already own. Having clutter stresses me out and so I live with very few things. My boyfriend had to buy me a "starter kitchen set" because when he would come over I only had a few pieces of dishware to use lol
Growing up in hoarding situation is no excuse to not fix your issues and be there as an equal partner. I grew up in a hoarder house with almost zero training in independent living skills. My "adulting" capability was near zero when I entered the real world. I started having panic attacks and so my journey to learn all the things I needed to know in order to function and survive was done while also struggling with anxiety. I would never just throw my hands in the air and use it as an excuse to make my partner my servant. That's unacceptable.
I am a full-time parent. What has been most radical for me, which I feel went unspoken in this interview, is that unpaid labor, domestic labor, is legitimate work, with an actual economic contribution. The big lie is that domestic labor is just necessary maintenance like brushing your teeth or eating lunch or going to the bathroom. It just happens and doesn't take any effort or energy. That is not true. When I started looking at my domestic labor the way I would a job, it totally changed my mindset. I started keeping tabs on my time and it really helped me know when I had done enough, when it was time to stop. It's nuts for women to be working two full time jobs. The idea of task cards isn't just taking the idea of a job and applying it to domestic labor, it is treating domestic labor as the work it actually is.
You save your family money in terms of child care also. My guess is you do the cleaning so you save on hiring a cleaner or hiring someone to pick up and deliver your laundry. You save hiring a chef or paying for a restaurant to make your family's meals. You really are doing work.
The devaluation of women’s time is something I’ve never been able to fully except and it absolutely breeds resentment with people who feel like you are just being difficult but l absolutely hate feeling like I worked hard and having someone explain why my work wasn’t as hard as the next while also trying to convince me why it would be to hard for them to do mine so I have to keep doing it
When we talk abouy traditional women's roles, BIPOC women have worked outside the home for all of US history, many times times for white women both pre and post WWII. That being said, massive reforms are needed across the board. BIPOC women also have high rates of single parenting, so it's particularly crucial for us. And so many young women across the board are choosing not to get married and have children because they see how the cards are stacked against us.
Honestly, being married sounds worse than being a single parent. It sounds like these women are essentially married/single mothers with an extra child that’s lazy, demanding, entitled, and has the final word. That’s a nightmare! It would be comedy if it wasn’t so inherently depressing. How can you be the head and the tail at the same time?
@@peacefreedom4930 My friend is visiting me. She's going through a divorce. She is taking so much of the mental load, even now! Her stories are similar to your description, but somehow she feels responsible for everything.
I'm pasty but I'm from a Hispanic background. The pressure to HAVE kids is also really intense for BIPOC. If you come from a traditional or conservative family - oh my god, if you're 20 without kids you're like defective 🙃
In a Michael Chabon book of essays he was amazed by how many people came up to him while he was grocery shopping with his kids to tell him what a great parent he was. If he were female people wouldn't see this as going above and beyond. It would just be a Tuesday.
@@mousquetaire86 maybe because getting to top positions in male dominated fields is quite hard for women, considering the silent pushback we receive from many sides. While learning how to manage a household without someone (wife, spouse, mother) constantly prompting you to do a rightful half, doesn't come with a plethora of colleagues who won't listen to you because you are not a man.
@@mousquetaire86 oh, yes, the famous "female coder stans". Like I just wish they'd shut up about their dumb lady idols already! Oh wait that's Elon Musk's groupies I'm thinking about.
Once was infuriated by a guy at my work telling me that he got free stuff because he was a guy buying typically womanly things. Yet if a woman was to do the same it would be overlooked or judged???
This episode was so amazing. I'm 21 and have watched every woman in my life struggle with division of labor and burnout. It's so normalized in our culture. I'm working to break those generational cycles and help the women in my life now.
This entire video gave me vaginal dryness and made me genuinely THANKFUL thatI am single and have never been married. I will setlle for nothing less than someone who is my PARTNER.
My husband was taught how to fix cars and do some house repairs by his father and grandfather. But anything that was considered a household duty he was never shown. He cannot cook, never learned to iron (I'm currently teaching him), wasn't shown how to clean (his parents tend to skip cleaning), he never learned to do laundry so in college his mother would drive 300miles, one way, every other week to come do his laundry and take him grocery shopping, pet maintenance mostly fell to his mom, etc. And yes his mother had a full time job in a STEM field, she just also did everything around the house including growing and canning a lot of their food. I had no idea about any of this until several months into our relationship. Please teach your sons to be self sufficient! I'll be honest and say my mother didn't want to teach me anything because she preferred to be alone. So I grew up and learned it all myself.
The absolute ability to learn things on your own, in the Age of the Internet, is what makes this perpetual male incompetence so unacceptable. Literally, just Google it.
I have heard a lot of ridiculuos things about this topic. I have never heard something as insane as a mother driving 300 miles to do laundry for her son.
@@anthill1510 My aunt did all of my cousin's homework for him for the last 3 years of his time in public school because he didn't want to do it himself. He was 15 - 17.
I was never taught. I had to Google how to cook a pork roast. But we all learn. Don’t be the teacher of a man. What an excuse we have that they don’t know how
Im in a battle with my husband for some time now trying to make him understand that when he does any chores he’s doing it for US instead of for ME. He insists in avoiding the problem
It is also such a cultural norm. I work days and my husband works nights so we can take care of our kids without day care (cost prohibitive). The school has my husband as the primary since he is available during school hours but the school still calls me and emails me first 🤦♀️
Omg, yes. Seems like every year my husband and I have to remind the school nurse that it's my husband who is the SAHD and the primary contact for medical needs. While I understand that they call if they don't reach him right away if our child is ill, I have to gently but firmly remind them that the requests for immunization records etc. all go through *him*.
It’s so difficult though because many men don’t actually respect their wife enough to respond to her plea to communicate and figure these things out. The burden is still on the woman to initiate and get the buy in from their husband and if the husband is being cared for, they don’t have an incentive to do more.
The funny thing is, the least infantilized boy I ever met is the son of lesbian parents including one of my cousins. I was able to have a hard conversation with that boy (with the topics adjusted so a 5-year-old could understand them in the first place) and he handled that conversation with far more maturity than most grown men who actually exist - a maturity that is more on par with the type of men that a lot of folks lament over and mythicize (not realizing that their infantilizing of sons is a big part of why a lot of men grow up to act immature - that, and adding pressure to hide one's emotions and channel all negative feelings that can't be suppressed into anger, which does no favors and has no effect on the maturation process).
This would have been helpful to me when I was married. I was mentally doing so badly in marriage to the point that I was happier in some inpatient psychiatric facilities than at home. Communication and boundaries have always been extremely tough for me because of the way I was raised and the violence I endured outside of my family. I'm so happy there is someone talking openly about this topic and helping women have these conversations.
Ugh the “you never reminded me” I hear from my dad all the time to me. I love my parents, they are divorced and they have their separate issues. Neither of my parents wanted to do anything. My time is never valued with my dad. I always had to move around my schedule even though he works from home with his own business, but I am a full time student and worker. I stopped putting up with him last year and he started throwing tantrums…..men are so emotional! I now am at a 4 yr university and loving it. Men need to stop this learned helplessness and not paying attention. I am excited to pick up this book and read it over break.
In his defense though, it also just comes from how you get raised. A lot of men just aren't taught that kind of stuff matters. So they don't look for it. Reminding them can help, ofc it's a double edged sword because if you keep reminding him he'll claim you're nagging. So your point remains valid and apt at the end of the day.
Thank you for plugging the library! I’m a librarian and it drives me nutty when influencers talk about audible and bookstores but don’t bring up the library ❤
OMG, The school thing is legit. My husband is first on the call list for our kids schools. They call me first every. single. time. Even though my husband has remind them that he is primary contact repeatedly, they still call me first. This is the case with multiple services are kids use, like medical supply delivery company, the doctor's office. One time my husband called the pediatrician and they told him I had to sign a waiver to allow them to talk to him, even though he is listed as their father, and as the primary contact. So my husband is TRYING to pull some of the mental load, but these places won't let him.
My husband tells me he just isn't capable of noticing when he leaves trash or dirty dishes around the house and it annoys the crap out of me. I'm like you don't notice because you don't care because you think you shouldn't have to care!!
Funny bc those same men notice that sort of stuff in a work setting like in the military barracks or at a store they manage or whatever. They also often tend to notice that stuff when single before a date comes over... weird
It sounds like your husband believes things just magically get cleaned on their own. See this link to a TH-cam video that fully describes this phenomenon: th-cam.com/video/-_kXIGvB1uU/w-d-xo.html
There are people with lower tidiness standards than yours. As long as they do not demand that you do the chores instead of them, it seems fair to me not to bother them too much. If you can't lower your cleanliness standards, hire a maid or leave them alone and choose a naturally tidy partner. It's a torture to live with somebody obsessed with mundane stuff, really.
@@NetokrateI appreciate that perspective but as a daughter who grew up in a family where kids and the father were exempt from household labor, that’s not actually what happens. I had the same mindset as my brothers and my dad in that I was disgusted by household chores and didn’t want to do them. I loudly resisted my poor mother’s attempts to institute chores, so I feel some authority in putting words to the psychology of people with “lower standards” because that’s exactly what I said to my mother. Everyone prefers a clean environment. That’s just a human trait. If a five star hotel and a motel had the same price, we’d stay in the five star. For people living on their own, in the dirty “bachelor pad,” they feel that the mess they live in is less repulsive, less mentally off-putting, than the act of cleaning/learning to clean. What would happen with me was that when I was asked to clean something, two things would happen: I would be more disgusted by physically interacting with the mess than by leaving the mess where it was, and I would understand that household labor was beneath me and so I would put up with the mess because it felt less demoralizing than household labor. It’s a rhetorical ploy to try and have your cake and eat it too. As I’ve been living on my own I’ve been feeling very repulsed by this. When there’s someone who wants to stay neat and clean it’s easy to take advantage of them and I’m 100% guilty of that.
@@mrslvw I used to be a store manager. Id often say to men: you'd never expect someone else in the office to do your work for you and pick up after you. Why do you expect your wife to do that at home?
I think there's something here for many women--even if they don't have children. I'm childless by choice but often struggle with the concept of "unicorn time" and often feel guilty about pursuing things I'm passionate about like art and music, especially if the kitchen floor needs to be swept or the trash needs to be taken out. I'll start nervously filling my free time with small tasks and then feel burnt out when I finally sit down to do something creative. My BF does help out equally with the household labor, but I still feel guilty and non-productive when he's cleaning and I'm creating. I've been asking myself why this is the case when I have more free time now than I ever had before in my life, and I think you and Eve have really hit a nerve here. Thanks, Chelsey! Your podcast is very eye-opening.
I had a coworker that I mentally supported through her second pregnancy while also on the way to being a shift leader. She was so damn stressed all the time and would always thank me so much for just understanding how busy she was. She worked hella hours while heavily pregnant and her husband still expected her to take care of her first child and all the chores when she came home. I couldn't understand why she put up with how uncaring her husband was to her pain, the literal mother of his children. We would joke that I was her emotional partner or something because of how little he paid attention to her concerns. I think she left him after having her second if I remember correctly. Or I hope she did, she deserved so much better. It made me never feel regret for not being in or wanting a het relationship.
This book saved my marriage. I was a stay at home mom with a wife and we had developed so many of the same problems described here. Buying the cards and having these conversations led to my wife having a realization that she had unwittingly stepped into her own patriarchal father's role in our home. It was something I had been trying to explain for years. We don't use the cards anymore, but I keep them handy if we need a refresher. 😊
And here we are at the holiday season with a massive uptick in family and work activities. I used to feel the need to do everything that measured up to 'the Magic of Christmas', (despite not being religious), with tracking down gifts, buying the food, decorating the house, sending cards, taking kids to school festive activities, etc. This would all crescendo with the big Christmas dinner where my husband would ask if I need any help and just call him when I needed him. Then he would disappear from the kitchen, until everything went to the table. I generally dislike the holiday season now. I minimally decorate the outside of the house, since we live on an overly decorated street, to avoid public shame. My husband does most of the gift buying now because we have sons, while I put together stockings. I work Christmas Eve, so there is no big dinner on Christmas day. One year the Christmas tree did not go up, because I said if they wanted one up they were welcomed to put it up. They missed having a tree, so they put it up next year, but were too lazy to decorate it. I had to pack the tree away, putting my back up in the process. That tree went up on FB marketplace for free the next year. We now get the smallest live tree, which requires no time to put up. Women are already running on fumes prior to December. I've tried to pick the traditions I care about and ditch the ones that don't work. Most of the guilt came from me and the anger from expectations I had of my family. Unpacking that guilt and anger allowed me to unload the societal pressure. December is now more relaxed for me. With that said, my dream is to one year fly to Australia for the month of December and not think once about lifting a finger for the season. Does that make me a Grinch? Happily.
Welcome, fellow Grinch! My mom is sincerely puzzled at why I gave up on obligatory gift giving and receiving ten years ago, will not decorate and find decorating for someone else to be a burden, and basically dread Christmas family time so much that I have scheduled trips just to spend Christmas somewhere else. The truth is that the stress of preparing the perfect holiday got to her, so it has never felt like a chill, enjoyable time for family.
@@rosabellaalvarez-calderon4586 My partner and I also just decided, after this past holiday, that we would not be doing gifts next year, letting everyone know in advance of course, not to expect any from us or buy any for us! I'm already relieved for next year lol But I'm slightly nervous about how my in-laws will react haha
I fully recognize my husband is a unicorn. He picks up our kids more than me and if something isn't done he just does it. He helps clean up and will ask me what I need help with. I don't have to ask him to make the boys breakfast or anything. He gets up before I do and just does it. All this makes me want to jump his bones everyday bc I have the energy to do it. My ex was lazy and that's why we are not together. I much rather be alone than have to take care of grown ass man.
It really is depressing how little work men do around the homes and for their families. And why I was so shocked after moving out because that’s not how my mom raised her boys. And she’s Puerto Rican so Latin culture loves to make excuses for why boys don’t need to learn to do chores. Hell, her dad did most of the housework too, and this was in the 1960s! My mom made sure that my brother and I could take care of a house so that we weren’t dependent on a spouse’s labor. Like my parents’ friends were shocked that I wasn’t coming home every holiday from college with just mountains of laundry for my mom to clean because she had the common sense to teach me how to do laundry when I was 10!
Thank you for this video. I'm fortunate to have a husband who does a lot of household duties on his own. Before we moved in together, he lived with a male friend who was divorced and had shared custody of a young child. My husband found himself compensating for the household duties that his friend's ex-wife no longer had to do. It annoyed him severely, and now he's much more aware of ensuring that we both reasonably have household responsibilities.
Reminds me of a friend of mine. His mother left the household. His father, his brother and himself were mad at her, calling her names for abandoning them. Then time pasts and someone has to do the work, so he did. Then he was the one mad at his father and brother. Now he wishes that his mother left sooner for her own good. He also left as soon as he could.
People, 1. For my people who don't have kids. You can identify these types of behavior BEFORE yall get married. How often do I have to remind my partner about tasks I asked them to do? How often do they volunteer to help with something, and I still have to remind them? How often do they need a sob story, tears, yelling, a sit-down face-to-face to change something I don't like? How often must I give them a explanation? I see this in my dating life all the time, and those people have removed bc of it. 2. Asked and Answered. I know this typically is associated with asking witnesses questions in court, but the concept applies here. Your partner asked you to do or stop doing something, and you Just Do It! That's it. No, back and forth, no side steps. Why does your partner need convincing if they love you? Why does your partner decide if your story is good enough to make them take up a task? Let's practice this, yall. Ask for something, and when they ask you why? Just say it makes me uncomfortable, or I don't like it, and I want it to stop. Why re-traumatize yourself to dig deep for a sob story about trash. If they ask you why then you ask them why you need an explanation for something both parties are involved in.
I wish someone would have told me this when I was in high school (though there wasn't really anyone to do so). I had such trouble with my boyfriend because no matter how much I asked, how I argued, if I broke down and sobbed or screamed or made a logical point, nothing would make him do even the most basic thing if he didn't enjoy it. It took me 4 years (well past high school) to realize that he would never, ever change and that I would never get a single thing I wanted if I was with him. When I broke up with him I was very upset, but it was such a relief that I'd never again have to spend hours extracting a promise to just call me (long distance) that would never be honored.
When my cousin was 12 or so, my aunt went on a business trip from the east coast to the west coast. I think it was a total of three or four days her (then) husband was expected to care for their three sons. Among the many calls of absolute nonsense she received, one was for my cousin, looking for a pencil. She was 3000+ miles away. His father was in the next room on the couch.
@@purplelove3666 Well, most men are like that. So let's not blame the women for not having any other choices. Shine the light back on men where it belongs.
Beautifully put, the title doesn't do the depth of this episode justice. This is something we've been practicing for some time, not knowing there was a whole movement & book for it! Validating. Thank you for this episode.
What a lady! 47:00 I related to this so much. I grew up in Hawaii in a rural area so bugs and rodents were inevitable. I learned how to be a ninja because of flying cockroaches. It was very traumatic even though I make jokes about it now since I don’t live there. But it’s been a life long trigger to me and has made me a clean/control freak. I only recently explained this to a new roommate, after years of people thinking I’m just a Monica from friends, and told them what trash/mess makes me relive being a little girl afraid of all the bugs. If you left trash overnight, you had flies in the day and then maggots the next morning. If you left dishes in the sink, you had roaches in the pipes. If you left crumbs on the ground, you had mice and ants. If you ever grew up hearing the sound of insects everywhere so bad that you couldn’t sleep, you’ll never understand why keeping a house clean can be so important to some people.
I have never understood the concept of the "hunny do" list. The idea that I have to make my husband a list of what needs to be done around the house is very puzzling to me. Then again I've spent most of my life as a single mom. In my current marriage, my husband and discuss what we are prioritizing for the day but he was a single dad for many years.
What the heck? Why not make a to do list together and then each person can pick what to do. Or alternatively just talk about it? No wonder marriage feels like work for some people🤦🏽♀️
I also have never cared for the "hunny do list". I also do not like the "work wife" description. As one person who commented above, you do wonder how this type of men even get and maintain a job.
@@bunnybaker2289 Huh? Why do you have to make a list? Are they a child? Men know and just choose not to do anything acting like they don't know how to do certain things when they do! Its called weaponized incompetence...most men do this all the time and most are in relationships so someone can smother them, do all the labor and to get access to women's bodies like men don't actually like women.
The beginning of this video is literally a conversation I have with friends all the time! It’s not just the housework, but also the emotional labor of being a partner of someone going out into the world and dealing with having a career. My husband is burnt out at work, and can’t catch a break, he works 50-60 hours a week, and has no room for me and my work problems.
@@jelemil I’m not saying he would, what I’m saying is that both partners having the stress of a full time job, on top of maintaining a home, on top taking care of dependents, is just an unrealistic set up.
When I was pregnant with our first child, my husband said out loud that he wanted to be the "assistant parent." My brother, who is married and has no children, said that I should be the primary caregiver of our aging mother and our disabled brother while I was home educating our three kids because I was "just at home" and he was busy at work. We both lived about 100 miles away from Mom and our brother.
And when he retired, rather than taking on the responsibility that he said he would take on once his work was finished, he moved to Florida. He used my favorite: "You are so much better at it anyway."
Let me guess. To some extent, that brother of yours (not the disabled one) never really cared about the family he grew up with. Even though he potentially has/had more time and flexibility as an adult with no children.
Who the heck are you people marrying ,and are you just getting to know your future husbands favorite foods or getting to know them for marriage purposes
@ktdaum I'd tell him you are sending his mom and bro cuz you are too busy, so you can't do it any of it anymore so Florida Brother us better at it because he had time. 😅
I work from home, my husband and I live with my mother. There is an unsaid/written assumption that it’s my responsibility to keep the house clean, shovel the walk/driveways in the winter, get multiple jobs(I have a full time job, a 30+ hour a week part time job and I freelance while I am trying to finish my master’s degree) and I’m exhausted. My husband has slowly picked up things some of the grocery shopping, intermittent pet care, but he always does his own laundry. But I can’t keep up, I’m exhausted, the house is chaotic but it’s my responsibility. I’m even in trouble with my mother for not being able to pay foe 2/3s of her mortgage payment. I’m exhausted and constantly fighting a cold, I had a tumor in my thyroid, severe inflammation in my whole body, and of course depression. I just don’t see a way out or relief because no matter what my housemates say, they never pick up the slack. I’ve been in tears begging them to help but when they do it’s the absolutely barest minimum so I just end up re-doing it. It’s a sick sick cycle.
I would stop doing everything...honestly. If they won't help, it wouldn't get done. And did you say shovel snow??? oh hell no....when my ex-husband refused to shovel I knew it was over. I really knew it was the end. You are not a work mule dear...so sorry you are going through this. Take care of yourself and set boundaries. So what it they don't like it. Give up some control and take your life back. Sending you much love.
can you leave? maybe get a non-familial roommate or strike out on your own? sometimes ultimatums -- either help out or I'm leaving -- are the only way. if you're this sick and your husband still isn't helping, the relationship hardly seems worth it.
If you can afford 2/3 of a mortgage you can probably rent a small place just for you: less to clean and just you to take care of! Easier said then done, but your situation sounds like the definition of hell to me 😢 I wish you the best
My ex did so many stupid things w/r/t the care of our baby that I preferred to do it all myself. Did he do stupid things to get out of having to be responsible for things? I think so, yes. He also did housework in a half-assed way. So I ended up doing the housework myself, too. The only time I felt relaxed and not over worked was when he was traveling for work. One of the many reasons why we are no longer together. He can go half-ass his way through life with someone else...
@@hdzmiriam I read both her books. The solution is to establish a minimum standard (theres6some acronym for it) so both parties agree that XYZ conditions are met for each specific task (like vacuuming for example means it's done at least weekly and all major areas done with no visible crumbs, but not necessarily going under all furniture or moving it to get behind sofa and that lines are nice but aren't required). Both partners agree and come to decision on what "good enough" is. That way no one is fighting over towels being folded perfectly as long as put away.
I think is so important to work on this things before making big commitments such as kids and marriage. My friend told me a few months back that in her previous 10-year relationship her partner was so selfish because he had his mind made up about no kids and marriage that he never asked her what she wanted in those areas... FOR 10 YEARS! why didn't she ever bring it up herself? Why can't women talk and work through their beliefs, morals and needs with men before making big commitments such as marriage and kids?
I believe this is why a lot of women are opting out of marriage and having kids. I believe both girls and boys should be taught minimal level of care and that its everyone's responsibility. Like these ladies said, if you can go to work and do tasks without being told, you can do the same in the house.
This is one of the best conversations I've listened to in a while. I'd love to hear more about addressing learned helplessness with our children. This hit home, "other countries have chosen to have social safety nets, in America, we've chosen to have women."
A lot of this makes it seem that only if the conversation was had with men that would help solve the unequal division of labor. However… I’ve never been married and am not currently in a relationship is because I had the conversation and at the beginning of the relationship the men were all for it but as the relationship progressed the men would finally admit “you know what I want the traditional model” they get very frustrated with equality because it is very hard for them. I even had a guy disdainfully say “oh you are not domestic”. So that whole conversation has not worked for me at all. I want an equitable relationship but I’d rather be single that be in an inequitable one.
You’re filtering out the lazy ones, which is a good thing. The guys who are actually interested in you (and interested in improving themselves) will not be scared away by that conversation.
this is some real feminist work I could see uniting women across many different identities ... I think it was a different financial diet video where a guest said "it's was easier to make women into lawyers than it is to get men to do household labor". I think pushing the narrative of women's time and labor being valuable is how we do it. People who give birth should literally be given stipends and payment from the government for that labor. It's a hell of a more humanizing and dignified approach than forced birth.
LOVED listening to this and sent to my female friends and family. I have seen my mother develop auto immune disorder because of this imbalance. Many of us understand fundamentally this topic, however lack the knowledge and lexicon to speak to it. Thank you! I need to compile a list of TH-cam videos with power to change lives…this will be the first video 📣
I was with my ex for a decade. One week after I left and moved across the country with our two kids, he called me to ask where the yeast is in the grocery store and what kind of socks does he wear so he could get more. I hung up on him.
@@49er16 You can't always foresee these things. Even if this woman noticed this level of titanic incompetence in her man before marrying him, she likely understandably hoped it would change, as any adult can reasonably be expected not to be and not to remain an overgrown toddler.
On today's episode of oversharing: I am a cishet male son of two parents. And listening through this makes me so happy that I'm not alone. I think many men like myself feel this "learned helplessness" in some many more ways than one. A few weeks ago, I had to travel for my work which is normally remote and work-from-home. But even something AS SIMPLE AS THAT turned into pointless squabbling. Why? Both my mom and dad were insisting that I was "doing it wrong." Mom through implication, dad through "masc" honesty. The mindset in my household seems to default to: "You need us to teach you." And there's the problem. This is MY SELF GROWTH. You aren't making me feel I OWN IT. And if this is MY EXPERIENCE AS A MAN, I can ONLY IMAGINE how much harder women have it! But I'm not perfect. To be honest, I admit outright: the only difference between me and an actual adult toddler is that I never gave a crap about what "a real man" is. But that alone doesn't address the problem. Sorry to end in pessimism but I come from the Philippines. And some "Filipino values" like the (over)glorification of family are going make it so hard to implement "fair play" here. I, at least, have the privilege of close friends and colleagues who do show me to value time not like sand or diamonds. Time is my life. And I shouldn't be wasting it. No one should.
Why are your parents in your ear during decisions like these in the first place? Do you live with them? I understand people live with their parents for other reasons than laziness. That takes a lot of boundaries navigating that really young adults don't have the learned life experience to deal with. I'm 34 and still if I had to live with my parents again we'd be at each other's throats constantly. Some parents didn't have kids to grow them up and let them have their own lives.
My classic dad with the 'work 60 hours a week so I don't have to deal with home' mindset was in for a rude awakening when my mom left one night. Bad enough was dinner often not being on the table but his dynamic as a dad truly came crashing down. To be fair, he did improve generally greatly and learn over time and my mom had said she would go back to work and never did, but it was constantly a problem. He did not know what he was doing even if you told him what you needed. The memories of having your hair roughly combed or not being picked up from school and more sat alongside the warm fuzzy ones to this day in retrospect and invalidated the security you thought you had, were gathering around yourself like a security blanket frantically. My relationship with him has only fully improved after age 20, my sister moving out, and the reality of the optionality of a relationship with his daughters set in. My sister has to agree to him coming to her house now. The quality and existence of it was on him, palpably, now. Such a relief to not feel maybe it would be better to have no parents, and the terror of that.
I said this before when Chelsea first brought up this book a few weeks ago but that video made me realize that even when it's not just with a romantic partner but also with friends who are male. I really that i was unconsciously taking a role of "the mother" with this friend. Like it was super easy too. Like my male friend always just seemed to "need" me to make the platonic version of domestic work like planning all of our outings and even researching schools and trainings for him. Like it just felt super normal for me to go out of my way to make his life easier. I've since realized that this also came from a place of pity because I was in a better place financially then he was so i had to compensate by doing a lot of things for him. This made me think of my own brothers. I remember asking one of my brothers to wash his dishes. Not the dishes, his dishes but he said, "since when?". Like am still upset any that till this day and till this day, he still leaves his dirty dishes in the sink. Like we need to do better. Like most of these man are being raised in single family households so if we can't even lay down the law for our younger brothers and sons, how are we supposed to do it with a romantic partner?
I had to learn this when my parents divorced and my older sister moved out. Aside from cooking because I am a culinary grad, he was expecting me to clean the entire house and do all the laundry….I was 16. When I visit the house is dirty, and unless there is something dangerous like shattered glass, I do not clean. His vacuum is broken and I have never seen him use a broom.
@@Kelle-Michelle he did them and i thought it was the start of breaking that pattern but then our mom (who works most of the day and i feel compensates for this) went back to doing the dishes for him so he went right back to outfit his dirty in the sink 😡
I looked this book up, I was really sad to see that the Amazon SEO suggested books about how to "not hate your husband" and "fed up how to handle all the emotional labor" that were trying to teach women how to stay with toddler men and deal with it.
Excellent podcast! After listening to the section about physical pain, I'm wondering if my chronic migraines for the last 15 years of my 19-year marriage are connected to the 80% or more unpaid work I do around the house in addition to working full-time.
And it’s not just in marriages it’s extended families too. As we deal with aging elders in our family my sisters and I are feeling hard how much weight the women carry vs. the men. Between the expectations of caregiving in and out of my home while managing a special needs child and demanding career I am drinking for the first time in my life not just socially and occasionally with friends but to take the edge off and quiet my racing mind. Skipping workouts, not able to find time with friends while watching the men kind of just continue their own needs and routines. But unlike the tooth fairy if we drop the tasks we’re doing there are actual lives at stake.
I realize that I've always been reluctant to enter any sort of romantic relationship because subconsciously I knew my time would be eaten up significantly and I wouldn't have enough energy for what I want to do in my life.
(White, male, hetero, married with kids) I think that we do pretty well. I do the laundry for the household, kids, and myself. I also do all the dishes, the trash, and the finances. I also take care the kids get to school in the morning. My wife does the shopping, the cooking (because she HATES dishes), and more of the holiday stuff. I also totally take care of the kids two nights a week when my wife has events/activities. I think what has helped us is that we talk about this a lot. Directly. And we try to make sure that each person gets equal amounts of rest. It's also super clear that our relationship is not the norm. Again - talking about all of our labor and being able to listen to each other without getting defensive.
I don't think this is an equal split of mental labour. The laundry, dishes and trash don't require mental focus, nor do they take much time. Grocery shopping is a big one - your wife needs to plan meals, make sure everyone in the house enjoys the food, keep an inventory of what is in the house and what needs buying, commute to the store whatever the weather, come up with solutions if something is out of stock, carry the groceries, and then make food for you and your kids at specific times when you are hungry, which means she needs to plan her time around you. You take care of the kids 2 nights a week? what about the other 5? Holidays are very stressful when planning for a whole family by the way.
The not getting defensive part is tricky and important. For my male partner that's his default move - requests are met with "but I did ABC already!" Or "I did that last time.". And it took me a long time to learn not to respond to that initial resistance with anger or my own list of what I've already done. I also have to work on articulating that cleaning is an ongoing thing, there are no tasks that are "one-and-done". So frequent direct convos really help with making the dynamic equitable.
@@kaeb0_o264 We men have a lot to unlearn about expectations and work at home. I may be helpful to find a different time to sit down together and chart out the tasks and frequency and then put them on a calendar. I think that makes it much more obvious that somethings have to get done many more times than others. And I love the other posters comment about mental effort. It's definitely important to talk about. I read this awesome book - How to keep house while drowning. It really helped me think about the cleaning tasks in a new way - like equal rest rather than equal work. The book is super short and written for a neurodiverse audience. 100% recommend.
@@teodoralovin5797 his example didn't seem like equal division, yes. But if one person prefers to cook, they also usually prefer doing groceries so they can plan the meals around it. A friend's husband likes cooking, so he also does groceries (or they go together) and meal plans. I think certain tasks just sorta get grouped together. Childcare is trickier
Love this so much! My partner has come a long way since we first started dating as far as equal work goes. I quickly realized that his mother never taught him accountability around the house. She had 7 kids and picked up after every single one. Shortly after dating, I realized that my boyfriend was, quite literally, the adult equivalent of a toddler. He quickly picked up on the fact this was not acceptable with me. Luckily, he took to learning but still a bit more work to be done! Definitely going to check out the book.
This woman is amazing. She's so realistic and I love so many things about this. I love that she doesn't vilify the men through the process, or solely blame them. I love that her book is fully research based. I love that her knowledge on this topic is so thorough and she truly understands and cares about it. I love that what she created is an actionable approach to the issue, and has even followed up with her second book guiding people through their new found freedom in a research-based, healthy way. This is phenomenal. Thank you
Now that I make more than my husband, he is the one who takes time off to pick up kids early from school or take them to the doctor. I get comments from other mom sometimes when my youngest shows up with clothes a that don’t fit him to a play date. I honestly always say the same: “it’s not a reflection of me as a mother, but him as a father” he is a grown ass man , he can figure it out
I'm sitting on the couch crocheting and listening to this while my husband is making soup in the kitchen during his lunch break (works from home). I never assumed the full maid role and got him cooking, cleaning, doing the mental labor for keeping things running. I'm lucky that he agrees it's about teamwork not his ego. And yes, our sons are toddlers still but they see him do all the things - the dishes, the laundry, the cleaning, the cooking etc. Don't worry, I also work. Just taking a break right now.
I feel like there’s a way to combine our thinking about gendered labor divides in marriages and the way we value/devalue work that’s traditionally thought of as “women’s work” - like, when folks do pay to cover domestic labor (cleaning, childcare, clothing production & maintenance) who is taking on that work and how are they compensated? I feel like this is a space where there’s a lot of opportunity for solidarity between white women & women of color. If we advocate for increasing the prestige & compensation for work traditionally thought of as “women’s labor” that would benefit people across races & classes
Hopefully that all made sense, I’m just starting to think about this as I’ve been talking a lot with my sister about fast fashion and the laborers and labor conditions for folks who produce our fabric & sew our clothes
@@amelomari8250 Yes, you made sense. :) More traditionally women's work that is horribly undervalued and underpaid is psychology, counseling, teaching, nursing, home health aides, nursing assistants, medical assistants, and social work of all kinds. All of these are, of course, very non-essential to the basic functioning of our society and women only choose "bad" low paying majors because they're dumb and make bad financial decisions. 🤦♀️🤪😵💫
@@amelomari8250 If you're interested in learning more about the negative effects of the fast fashion industry, I highly recommend the book, 'Stitched Up: The Anti-Capitalist Book of Fashion'.
Education is so important and so difficult to undo. I'm a genderfluid person who was raised as a girl, and I see plenty of trans people who were raised as boys have the same issues as cis men - they haven't been taught to take care of themselves properly and are now very confused as adults because, oh no! They didn't become cis guys who married submissive cis girls, and now they have to figure out how to function on their own. The wakeup call is BRUTAL. Parents, just raise your goddamn kids.
I'm a trans woman and it is a lot to suddenly take on. It's like we get taught different things and I can take care of other stuff but basic stuff that involves my own home feels so alien and foreign to me. I can diagnose a car in 20 minutes, fix basically anything made of wood or metal. I know how to create circuits, basic coding, how to solder, how to improvise tools, even how to fight. But no one ever taught me too really bake, cook, or anything more advanced. No one thought it be important to learn how to shop for groceries? I guess I finally got a handle on it at 25, but cleaning and stuff is still something I gotta make myself do.
When I had trans masc roommates, it eventually just got to the point where I wouldn't eat because I didn't feel like spending money nor cooking. They'd always be cooking up something delicious but meh, I wouldn't ask most times. Eventually, it just boiled down to, " I'll do a thing for you if you give me food later!" So I'll do chores around the house, fix their car, or help them in some other way. And when they cook later, they'll give me some.
My husband is a SAHD. I am the breadwinner. Yesterday my husband called the school office to let them know my son was out sick and left a VM. Two minutes later, the school nursed called my cell. Ever see that mcsweeneys article about that ? This is the school nurse, and I need to talk to you, the mom!
Our child had a speech delay from being at home for mostly 2 years over the pandemic (she was born about 6 months before), and had sensory issues and toe-walking. From birth on, I've handled 90% of doctor's appointments, and for the therapy, all of it. That time period of about a year and half of speech therapy and occupational therapy almost drove me to divorce, I was already expected to be the person taking off anytime our child was sick, and having to juggle the odd working hours and constant leave I still incurred as a result of this very needed thing for my child was deeply impacting my work. I finally cornered my husband on all of it mid last year and being 'like, we're roommates co-parenting a child and I'm doing 90% of it and I don't care that you don't like making dinner most nights because that's what you do in order to avoid the work of parenting.' Therapy has helped, but there's still very unequal footing regarding parenting - it's constant nagging to get him to look at reading material on parenting now while our child is in this developing stage, and I get very defensive when he gets critical of something I do regarding her because it feels like he's backseat parenting.
All this. I was seriously dating a guy for almost five years, where his mom did everything for him. He was lazy and felt entitled to everything. I worked a lot, and I think he and his family saw that I could financially take care of him. When his mom said once to me that I needed to get a better paying job, instead of her unemployed, in-debt son, I knew what would happen. I ended it shortly afterwards after he gave me an ultimatum about certain relationships on my side of my family. When I broke up with him, he was literally shocked. Kept trying to win me back; I was done.
Watching this interview...I feel seen. I don't think my relationship with my husband can be repaired at this point. But he has finally started doing his share of the childcare duties. It only took asking for a divorce for him to start taking some responsibility. Too bad I only asked for a divorce after my romantic feelings died.
You should've went through with the divorce like the fact that he only decided to act right even though you've probably been "begging and nagging" communicating then nothing changed like clearly we can see who benefits from the marriage more and its clearly him. He just showed how he sees you and the relationship and if he was like that then switched up when you mentioned divorce then he'd definitely do it again!
I'm only half way into watching this interview and it is, by far, my most favorite one on TFD. I can absolutely relate to everything being discussed. My husband and I both work full time. I am a full time parent and he's part time. What bothers me the most about this situation is the expectation that I will just handle everything versus there being an honest conversation about what's fair.
Definitely agree with so much of this. Especially the mental work and prompting. I do also wonder if women are being pushed into doing way more work, for example with Instagram pressure. Pressure that men don't take on for whatever reason. E.g. the birthday parties and cakes that seem to be getting more elaborate and fancy. The presents we feel we have to buy and then now wrap in a super fancy insta worthy wrapping. The need to dress the bed with cushions, that get removed every day etc. If more of us stopping trying to meet these ever increasing standard - that probably come from marketing stuff to us!? - then some of the work would be reduced/removed? Absolutely not saying this is the whole picture at all and plenty of men arent changing the sheets let alone get to added "show cushions" but it worries me seeing from friends with kids how e.g. a cute homemade cake for birthday suddenly turned into a performance & artistic endeavor (or pressure to buy it) and the judging women who don't! Interested in thoughts?
My mom was the breadwinner, homemaker, and the parent. She even homeschooled my siblings and me for the majority of our lives. She was a SAHM when we were little, but we were so poor at the time, my parents knew they had to bring in more money to set up the education they wanted for us. Our family finally began to thrive after mom started her own business. She was working all the time, but when it came to parenting and home duties, my dad never stepped up to take any responsibility off her plate. He even retired early at 55 because he believed his hard work has been done. She passed in 2023 due to cancer and I truly think she worked herself to death. I dont know why i was surprised my dad didn't know the log ins to pay bills or access bank accounts. She was a Christian so she always told me that the "man should always be the head of the house" even if she was the only one working at the time. I wish I would have said that it isn't Christian-like for my dad to watch her drown. She wasn't superhuman. I miss you mom ♥️
The problem is not solved by women who write books about this topic. Never have I seen a MAN talk about this problem or let's say be open about this topic in general. Men have to talk about this, not we women. They have to step into the spotlight and talk about taking the half weight off of their wives shoulders. But this doesn't happen. So, unless we women are bringing up our sons like our daughters, this will not change.
My husband and I don’t have kids, but I think we split tasks pretty evenly. He works with mostly women and when he mentioned he folded (my) laundry, they just asked why I didn’t do it. They know I work full time. If you want to learn more about the physiological consequences of stress and oppression mentioned at the beginning, Gabor Maté’s work goes into depth. He says that in instances like the pandemic, women are shock absorbers for everyone else’s stress. Health concerns, especially autoimmune disorders, have disproportionately increased for women since we entered the workplace.
These issues are among the reasons I ended my marriage. I'm much happier now, less stressed, and have less to do without the 40-year-old toddler around making messes and "helping."
March 8th, 2019: Mexican women protested absenting from the country, they didn't work, did chores or took care of their kids. Men took the day as a holiday for them, next day when women came back to their regular activities they had to clean after the mess everyone else left (men) the day they absent, I honestly lost fate in society.
This brought back a memory from my childhood. My father would routinely go to the grocery store and come back with food that he alone would eat. He only bought food literally for himself. And he had a wife and three children.
My “something is deeply wrong here” moment was when I had come home for spring break from college, and my mother and other sisters had left for a vacation, my brother, father, and I remained. I walked downstairs to make myself dinner and my dad was there and was like “can you go grocery shopping for us? I don’t really know how to do it.” We both had time off that day, he was a 50 year old man telling his 19 year old daughter that he assumes she knows how to grocery shop better because I’m…a woman? Not that I didn’t know how to feed myself but the scary thing is that he didn’t. I vowed to enter a relationship where my partner would never utter those words, especially to our children
I encountered the exact situation when my mum went away. Dad shuffled up and asked what was for dinner. To which 19 year old me said "Whatever you make for yourself"
@@nickievison1134 wow can’t believe this is a universal experience 😅 it’s quite disheartening and makes you lose all respect for them
Let me guess.....your dad worked 50-60 hours a week?
I go to my parents' house for dinner every Sunday. My younger adult brother and sister still live with them. Until about last year when my brother started learning how to cook in order to prep his lunches, every time my mom would go out of town (or her birthday, or for "Mom does no work" camping trips, or mother's day) my dad would be like "So Anna, what are you making for dinner?" "Anna, can you come over early to help cook?" (and then I'd just end up having to do it all myself). I feel exhausted on behalf of my mother, who shoulders that responsibility nearly every fucking day and comes back from every reprieve and has to get right back to it. Now that my brother has learned to cook, he and my dad and my sister are able to rotate dinner responsibilities while my mom is out of town helping my older sister with the grandbabies. My role now for Sunday dinner is bringing a dessert, and that is my contribution.
Now I need to figure out a similar issue with my partner 🙄
@@CribNotes no he's just a baby man
The first time I got "the motherhood penalty" was in high school. I was up for a science scholarship. I was a shoe-in. I had the best grades and best scores, already been accepted to a top school. But I didn't get the scholarship. When I asked my physics teacher why, he said, "You'll just end up getting married and having kids anyway. We want the money to go to someone who will really do something." So yeah. It's very real.
That is awful. I’m so sorry!
I'm so mad after reading that, that I don't even know what to say. I have nothing witty. That's horrendous.
I’m so sorry ! That is disgusting
He sounds like my mother who didn't want me to get a high school diploma and study.
A very familiar story! Despite having the best grades in my family, having one of the top SAT scores at a very competent high school and getting accepted at my dream university (close enough to commute), my parents refused to help me in any way, whatsoever, including providing any financial info because: Unlike my brothers, I would not have to eventually support a family and I should just be a secretary until I found a husband. I found an office job, went to university at night, got married, had three kids (who I basically raised on my own) and became the chief earner. Meanwhile my husband retired early due to his ignoring health concerns and I’ll have to work until 70.
I remember my ex once told me that once he left I'd realize how much he actually did around the house... ya'll I have like 5 hobbies now and have so much free time it's absurd 🤣
My ex said the same! He was like your life will be so hard without me… Um, I hired a landscaper and clean and decorate my house with no worry of critique on timing or outcome. I go on weekend trips while my son is with his dad. I am living a fantastic life I couldn’t have dreamed of while married!
Same! My ex was supposedly so helpful:/ My chores got cut over half. His laundry was bulk of our loads. He's messy but oblivious to it (leaves crumbs and stuff everywhere DESPITE working in restaurants and retail!). Dishes were cut down bc I actually will reuse a water glass throughout the day:/ I also felt more free to make simpler meals (breakfast for dinner, heating up sausage to serve over premade rice, etc.). Oh and huge emotional weight lifted so I had more energy. Seriously I worried so much about leaving and almost didn't but so glad I did!
@@mrslvw I had similar experiences with my ex.
Im now single parent working full time, studying once a week and my life is so much better than when my ex was in the picture and I was a stay at home mother.
Yeah now that you're gone I've realized how much you did around here... How much of the pop cans you left around, how much piss you left on the toilet seat, how much laundry you left on the floor... You did a lot!
Is what I would be saying in that situation lol
@@lauraigla6319 lol yep!
The worst thing is as a woman I judge myself against immaculate standards ala Martha Stewart and clearly fall short then feel like a bad housekeeper. Men don't even judge themselves- just doing some basic tiny chore ONCE makes them husband of the year:/ Like him picking up an old stack of junk mail somehow beats me cooking a whole holiday meal, which even if gourmet is below pare if I don't also hand embroider personalized placemats:/
I am so over the McDonald’s coffee joke. That coffee was beyond boiling due to the machine not being serviced correctly. That woman wasn’t just slightly burned… she suffered 3rd burned & spent years & years in pain.
So glad someone commented on that, it being frivolous and a matter of personal responsibility is just McDonald's PR astroturfing to cover up the fact that they were negligent.
She had third degree burns ON HER VULVA! HER LABIA FUSED! I don’t care what you think about how litigious American society is: coffee should not be served at a temperature that will DISFIGURE YOU if it spills on you.
The machine *was* serviced correctly - McDonalds's INTENTION was to serve coffee far too hot. ("It's takeout, the customer isn't going to drink it until they're 10 minutes down the road: we super-heat it so it will be the perfect temperature *then*.")
There’s a documentary on this. MCDonald’s purposely makes their coffee too hot. The documentation subpoenaed during the court battle proved they knew, instructed franchisees to follow this practice, had records of numerous injuries spanning many years. However, the income generated from this practice was greater than the payouts for injuries. So, they continued. This was not an accident, one off, or machine defect. This happened because McDonald’s values profits over people.
@@iloveprivacy8167 And they knew it was seriously harming people but they did some analysis and found out that it would be cheaper for them to allow the coffee to seriously injure people and pay their medical bills than change their coffee makers nationwide. That callousness was what led the jury to fine McDonald's the profits McDonalds made on coffee in one day. It was to teach them a lesson. All the old lady wanted was her medical bills covered
Chelsea I really enjoyed this interview with Eve. I was married to a “toddler husband” for 30 years. His parents thought men should be “waited on”. I was not raised this way so there were numerous arguments. I was caught in the generation between non-working and working women. I worked but did most everything at home too. We finally divorced after the kids were gone. I am 73 and a big fan of your videos, I have recommended them to my granddaughters.
Congrats on dumping that loser!
If you are a woman, you are working - a great deal! Frequently, your work is unpaid labor.
So glad you were able to find your freedom!
Can't imagine what you've been through. Never forget that it is because of women like you that we've gained as much freedom to be our own people and discuss these issues now. Thank you
Recommend this to your grandsons, too. I've already got agreement with my unmarried son to give me 6 hours over 6 weeks to listen to Fair Play on audiobook together. Giving men the knowledge to avoid an angry, bitter spouse in his later years is an incredible gift
"The antidote to burnout is being interested in your own life." I know a loooooot of people who need to hear this excellent advice.
That quote is BS. If you have to work two jobs, plus do the house work, do tell, how "being interested in your own life" will change that situation? Create 2 more extra hours in a day to sleep? Increase your salary so that you can have just one job? The antidote to brun out is paid vacation. Living wages. Paid sick leave. Maternity leave. Flexible working hours. Working from home. Job protection so that you are not fired while you dare take your vacation. Changing the system as opposed to pushing the solution to the individual.
@@alaakela Both are the answer. You need both worker protection (unions and laws) and to look after yourself.
@@alaakelacurrently burnt out as fuck, and I agree, this is square one. However, I do believe OP makes a good point. Once you HAVE some energy you really need to direct efforts to yourself and not start with everyone around you. Then it's just a recipe for burnout with nothing to show, again
@@alaakelaLiterally all the things you listed are meant to aid individuals in becoming interested/invested in their own lives again. Vacation time IS meant for self-interest and renewal. There’s no implicit contradiction here.
@@Window4503I think you misunderstood their point. It sounds like she's saying exactly what you're saying - that in order to be interested in one's life, one has to have time to do that first.
So she's arguing that the system needs to be changed such that people get more: PTO, vacation time, etc.
I'd also bring up that parents are doing their sons no favors by refusing to teach them how to cook and clean. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the standard idea of a filthy bachelor pad isn't healthy for men mentally. You've essentially given your son the gift of learned helplessness and the idea that living in filth is cool because "lol housework is woman's work I'm not gay bro". Which is just kinda pathetic.
EVERYONE should learn these basic tasks.
It’s true it starts young. There’s studies showing daughters spend more hours a week doing chores than sons. Probably a lot is teaching girls the daily grind tasks like cooking, cleaning, laundry vs boys taking out the trash or cutting the grass once a week. Have your kids alternate so they’re capable in all areas and share the time fairly.
The amount of young men who went to my college who barely had a clue how to do their own laundry shocked me. (My future husband was not one of them!)
@strayiggyTV How do you get out of learned helplessness... asking for a friend
I remember my parents, aunts & uncles laughing and mocking that my male cousin didn't know how to cook and clean when he went off to college. Like, it's their fault he doesn't know that stuff!
Just practice. Pick one thing you want to learn to do (E.g. cook a curry, iron a shirt, develop the habit of washing dishes before bed, clean the shower/bath) and work on it over a few weeks. There’s loads of online resources about how to grow a habit. Once you feel confident in your new skill, pick the next thing on your list and learn that one.
I was married to a man child who believed housekeeping was a "woman's job" because "men are the protectors and women are natural homemakers. 🙄He would come home from work, plop down after smoking, and watch cartoons -"too tired" to help out, even though I worked a full time job, was in grad school AND volunteered.🙄 I knew a year in I was not putting up with this and got divorced.
Gender roles are so convenient! When you’re a man. 🙄
The whole patriarchy thing about men being protectors is so insidious…it’s almost like a veiled threat. Like, why exactly do I need this protection? Who’s threatening me? 🧐
@@jswan312 Right? The number 1 threat 2 women is men
@@jswan312 It's mafia talk.
Wow sounds like hard work, "protecting" from... what exactly, grizzly bears?
Sounds like my man was hard at work protecting the weed from being smoked by anyone but himself while the wife did all the chores.
Not in this house. When my kids were babies (twins)I left them with my husband (their dad) and he called to ask what to feed them. I said “think of what you would feed them if I wasn’t in the picture. Figure it out.” He got on the ball immediately. Since that day he has cared for the family as much as I do.
You married a weak man 😂
I personally think this is one of main reasons that divorces are happening more often. I found I had a lot more time and energy to spend with my children, my house was cleaner, my life was less stressful, and I was financially better off once I became single.
This!!!
I had that experience also. I did remarry but only once I found someone who made me a priority.
Same here!
Yeeeeessssssssss, same girl
Right??? This is the.
I grew up seeing a stay at home mom and working/full time school dad work equally in terms of home labor. My dad was gone more, due to work and full time night classes, but he came home from work, did dinner and fed us and bathed us and put us to bed at least 5 nights a week because my mom had done wake ups, breakfast, school transport for older ones, nap schedules and activities for littles, lunches, etc. Once I was old enough to see, I noticed that they both changed a diaper, did dirty dishes, fixed a snack, replaced a lightbulb, put shoes away as soon as they saw them. No one had to be assigned anything, they were both truly just that thoughtful to do the thing as soon as they saw it needed doing. Truly upped my standards in regards to partners.
That sounds amazing but how does that impact your relationship with men when so many of them are not like your dad?
Same. My dad even did my hair occasionally. I try to avoid incompetent men like the plague. I think some people believe men are somehow inherently incapable of doing equal labor. My dad even takes care of my grandmother. He does her laundry and everything. They didn’t touch on this but I work in healthcare and when I meet older women that are hospitalized the daughter is often expected to be the primary caregiver and decision maker. I’ve heard more often than not from my female patients “thank God I had daughters”.
My parents were the same. Before the 2009 recession really made us need two incomes my mother was stay at home and dad was working full time, but he's a morning person (my mother absolutely is not) so he'd wake me up, make breakfast, pack a lunch and get me to the bus stop before heading to work. My mom helped me with my homework in the afternoon and cooked dinner, and then they'd split childcare evenly for the evenings and during the weekend. She did most of the cooking and cleaning, but he'd vacuum whenever there was a need and did all the laundry, and when she went back to work he got better at cooking so he could take some of the weight off. I never felt like my father was absent in any way, and they've always been partners in every sense of the word. I'm so glad I had such a wonderful model for a healthy division of tasks.
Different path, but similar result - my mom always made Way More Money than my dad. Both when he could work and couldn't (both for economy reasons and him-doing-the-work-was-the-easiest-way-to-fix-the-fixer-upper-house reasons), he was always super involved in making sure the household was taking care of. Like he recently disclosed to me that his family only ate breakfast together on Christmas and Easter (and maybe the occasional birthday) and that's why he wanted to make sure he and my sister and I ate breakfast together (almost) every weekday morning. Dinners were probably about half and half on each parent, and both my sister and I had activities planned by both parents. He managed the transportation to school from ages 5 or 6 onward for both us, and knew all our doctors' names.
A lot of our extended family wasn't like this though - my aunt's husband neither worked consistently nor did housework. My dad's brothers largely regard cooking, cleaning, and household management as "women's work." My mother's male cousins are by and large what can best be described as profoundly useless - they truly seem to regard the appearance of family dinners as magic, the arrival of their children at school as a given, and the management of their own damn wardrobes as someone else's problem.
More broadly, socially, it didn't escape me that my father was the only dad (or occasionally one of two) who volunteered at my sister and I's school. Of my friends, those who had stay-at-home mothers honestly seemed to have the better deal, because they weren't doing BOTH working and full-time momming, which the majority of the outside-the-home-employed mothers had to. I don't want children, but I don't want to be someone's replacement mother either, especially because I work too.
This has forever altered my expectations of partners, and is definitely part of why I'm still single.
Wow, glad to hear that exists! I divorced, largely on this issue. Truly not feeling like I had much value in the relationship...from his point of view.
7 years later still glad I did it. Kids doing well & I'm way happier.
The amount of shock and disbelief I get from other women when I tell them how involved my husband is in the care of our infant son. It honestly says a lot about how much woman are expected to care for our careers and home life. I honestly would not have considered becoming a mother if I did not have a partner putting in the same amount of work in raising our son.
"Do the kids need to eat lunch?" Like wtf do you think!?!?!
Omg yes.
Here in Sweden men are generally more involved and mine definitely is (we usually say jokingly that he is much better at being a housewife than I am), and yet when I went back to work after our first child when she was 6 months (childcare here starts at 1yo) there were so many who asked me "and where is the baby?" ummm with her dad or course? Duh
@@oxigen85 could be with another relative, very common
@@rba4377 no not here it's not
@@oxigen85 just bc doesn't happen for you doesn't mean doesn't happen for other people. Especially considering is more common in Scandinavian countries for families to be closer than in America.. makes it more likely for grandparents to care for young ones... Also if you get maternity leave longer than 1 year in Sweden i don't see anything wrong with people just being curious about who is caring for the baby. Like" I know X just had a baby who is still young, she's at work so I wonder who is caring for the baby out of curiosity" Why does everything need to be offensive nowadays
I'm childfree so if I can help it I'm not around parenting conversations often, but I nearly threw up in my mouth upon hearing a group of dads proudly state that they knew absolutely nothing about their children's lives: their friends' names, their allergies or medical providers, the fact that they had a cheerleading competition that week. They joked: "Why is the school calling me to ask about something related to my kid? Call my wife about that, I have no idea!" And everyone laughed and commiserated with their own similar story like that was something to be proud of, except the married gay man in the group who quietly suggested the concept of a shared calendar.
This makes me wonder why men like this have children at all, if they are so totally non-interested in their lifes. If there is one person in the world you should be interested in, it should be your own child. If you cannot provide that, maybe don't be a parent.
@@LillyJeanne lol cause all the work is done by a woman, and all the perks go to a man. He gets to continue his family name, gets increase in income and status etc. While doing less than 1/10 of the work his wife does
@@KateeAngel Then why its the women who want childern and not men? lmao. It was your idea, in case of divorce its the woman who gets the kids, ect. And lets not forget that its the man that mostly pays the bills for the house and family the woman wanted. He pays for that kid food, shelter , medical bills, ect.
@@alexforce9 Did you watch the video? Chelsea goes over that- even when women work longer hours and/or are the breadwinner, they still are the primary caregivers and do more housework. Regardless of employment status, it's abhorrent that some men don't provide any caregiving for their own children. If a man has that attitude, he needs to get a vasectomy, not have children
@@DonnaDoveWinters And how many women are the bread winners in the family?Like 3 procent? Way to feel like a victim despite not being the bread winner. lol, women like you dont deserve husbands and kids.
I had a discussion with my ex husband about starting a family but he had made it clear that his job will only be to impregnate me and won’t be doing anything to raise a child. I am so thankful that I gathered a courage and got out of that marriage before having a child.
Even though I’d be sick to death my ex won’t be there at all to look after me and his only excuse would be - oh I am always travelling so I can’t be there for you… As gut wrenching it was to end 10 years of relationship, I’ve never felt better ever in my life… We all deserve better! ❤❤❤
You are so brave for doing that. Not only asking the question but also ending it. Takes a very strong woman. You deserve the best.
Why would it be gut wrenching to leave such an awful person?
@@jswan312 sometimes known suck is more comfortable than the unknown. It's easy to let the months turn into years while you're keeping the rest of your life going.
@@sendnoodle5 "Known suck" is an excellent term that I will now incorporate into my vocab 😄 There are excellent resources out there for the "why women stay" question.
@@jswan312 I read it as sarcasm..?
What makes me so angry about this situation in my case is watching my male partner be proactive about things he "sees"/cares about. No one has to spoon feed him how to research video games or figure out some computer setup. He plans, executes, and maintains these things all the time. But any sort of domestic duty and he's completely lost has no idea where to start to figure out anything. It's insulting to my intelligence for him to say he doesn't know or understand these things when I watch him intuitively figure out way more complex stuff all the time.
And I'm sure he's tired of my anger but I'm tired of being angry and having the same conversations over and over and over. And in my households at least no initiative is taken until I'm upset. When I ask reasonably and calmly and give gentle reminders I'm blown off. If for some reason this relationship doesn't work out I don't know that I'd be willing to cohabitate with a culturally typical man again. This is exhausting.
Similarly, when guys move on to another woman with the mentality of "trading the old model in for a new model", I have always thought about the guy's boat or car/truck that they refuse to part with. Why is an old machine model great while the woman you married is suddenly old and outdated and the man decides she needs to be tossed out in the dump?
Have you pointed this out to him? I had similar issues with my husband and had a really honest conversation about how upset his actions were making me and he really has started to make changes
@@snoopstheboss994 I see that she said she is tired of the conversations, I meant to say I guess that maybe they are conversations had out of anger, or a conversation that is for whatever reason unproductive. It's possible the conversation just needs to happen in a different way
@Bonnie Selim i got what you're saying. And yes - I've brought up this issue calmly, lightheartedly, angrily, in writing. And I personally am the type of person that gets frustrated repeating myself. So if I'm angry it's usually because I've already brought an issue up when not angry and nothing has happened. Mine says what he thinks I want to hear in the moment and then either completely forgets or just stops doing whatever he agreed to do. It's bizarre and frustrating because we don't have this problem with anything else I can think of. Its only cleaning.
I threw in the towel since posting and scheduled a maid that he pays every cent for. This feeds into cleaning being someone else concern but I realized after posting I'm not gonna keep going back and forth with him about this, and I don't want to throw away an entire and generally healthy relationship over it either. Thankfully he is in a position financially to secure a solution to this problem in our home. I know this isn't an option for alot of households and even if it is financially there are....cultural struggles with this move that I'm still working through. All this to say I understand why hiring help even if you can afford to, isn't an easy fix.
THIS EXACTLY THIS!!!!!!
the "women's time is like sand / men's is like diamonds" metaphor is particularly apt because we are in a sand shortage because of the construction industry & diamonds have historically been kept artificially scarce to keep prices high
This is such a good point
Just a positive note here: I’m a working parent and my husband does equal or greater home labor as me. He cooks, does dishes, does laundry, takes kids to the doctor alone, etc. It’s so sad to me though how much my relatives praise him for being an amazing dad but rarely praise me for being a good mom. I’ve been told I have an impressive career but rarely that I’m an impressive mother. The standards are frustrating.
Edit: I am very happy with my life and all that is in it :). I think there are improvements in how society views the “roles” of men and women.
Why does that matter? Why are you letting outside opinions affect how you feel internally?
@kimberlysnooks8311 I hear you. My husband and I take more or less equal responsibility for cooking and household chores. I have heard comments like, "it's so nice he does ALL the cooking". Everyone says what a great chef he is and knows what his specialty items are. When I cook and make speciality item, people praise it but those somehow get forgotten later.
A dad needs only to remember his kid's last night and society hands him a trophy. Mom's need to sacrafice her whole life and get nothing. Its sickening. That's one of the many reasons I would NEVER use my body to carry a man's child. The large majority of them don't deserve children. Women carrying a baby then birth that baby and then nourish said baby with her body, only to give the child the man's last name will never make sense to me.
Ali Wong had a great speech about that. "It takes so little for a man to be praised as a good dad and it takes so little for a woman to be called a bad mom".
Truth! Reality is your hubby is a unicorn of men. I get what u r saying though.
While my dad wasn't a complete toddler, he was a narcissist. He made a lot of money, and used it as a mental and emotional whip to keep, me, my mom, and my brother in line.
Looking back though, my mom did EVERYTHING for him so he could make that money - she would have wiped his ass for him so he could take another phone call if need be. And the reward she got was to just be constantly told how she was the childish one.
I think this fueled my frustration with how American society still devalues women, whether they work professionally for not.
I love the line where they said "other countries decided to have social safety nets. We decided to have women"
So you could say I am probably one of the men you are describing in this comment. I have course M7 through this whole well I don’t have a bad word for it. I’m just gonna call it what it is rant.
In short, being in and out of relationships, ultimately to being in my current relationship and longest running relationship/marriage, I can definitely tell you that women say one thing, but her actions tell a different tale.
No amount of estrogen, field, venting, or that hating comments are going to change my mind about it to be honest. I love the lion from madman along the lines of “what do women want? Who cares… 🥃 “
Because we do live in the freest countries in the world, and I am telling you this, as a foreigner that came to the US undocumented, women have way more rights than men and today’s society. So this whole BS about women being victims of financial abuse, and all of that stuff, Complete total BS.
I am listening to this while I’m currently doing arduous work under the sun in south Texas . Well, my wife gets to take care of our baby and go to her sister’s graduation, possibly eating on Monday that of course, my jobs and my many forms of income provides. Because I want her to be home and taking care of the babies. so that when I come home, my heart is filled with their love after a long day of work.
I’m sorry your dad was just a piece of furniture. We do not need to get rid of toxic masculinity as they say, we need masculinity to raise better men and women.
I didn’t actually type all that stuff, I can actually afford AirPods so I can speech to text, so pardon the grammatical errors.
The craziest thing I have experienced as my husband and I work towards equal chore responsibilities is the reaction from other women. They are shocked that my husband does my laundry, vacuums, cooks, and cleans. Like, he’s not my child, he has to participate in the housework. Let’s build each other up instead of telling other women that this is a weird thing. It should be normal!!
Straight up
Exactly! I grew up with a dad very involved in the house. Mines not as equal but I certainly try and I have gotten a lot of grief from others for demanding that my husband show up in our lives!
🤦♀️💯
As a man who does the housework, I am surprised by women's reactions too, but for a different reason. I was in the army, we had to keep the place spotless, daily. One girlfriend said she broke up with me because she didn't understand her gender role in our relationship. If I do the cooking, cleaning, gardening, repairing things around the house, and work full time, then what was she supposed to do? We keep in touch. She just had a baby with a guy she readily admits is utterly useless at home.
Another girlfriend I lived with for five years dropped all her clothes on the floor. Clean, dirty, never worn, worn out, all went on the floor. She could watch TV all weekend, but couldn't find the time to sort and fold her clothes. I don't remember why she left, but I remember the housework reduced.
Exactly.
This issue is so pervasive that you don't have to be married or in a relationship to experience it, just live with a man who was raised this way -- roommates, family, etc. I thought that I could escape this burden by remaining single, but nope!
When I lived in university accommodation, I even drew up a chore sheet (still taking on the emotional labour) ....that all the men ignored.
Or attend a catered lunch or potluck at work and observe who stays after to clean up.
Don't live with them. Ever
@@KateeAngel Sometimes you don't have a choice....raised by a single father
YUP! I had a male roommate once (totally platonic), and I'd light myself on fire before I'd do that again. He expected me to pick up after him, left filthy messes everywhere, and exploded in anger when I eventually stopped covering for his laziness.
I married a man child 🙄 is so fucking exhausting. I already asked for a divorce because I just can’t keep doing this. I do want shared custody for the reason that he will be forced to figure things out on his own. He also has a video game addiction and it bothers me that he has 7 game counsels, tons of games and unopened boxes and I can’t even get a professional haircut because is too expensive 😡 I’m so done with being with someone like that. I’m about to go back into the workforce and feel so happy for becoming independent. Can’t wait to get out of here.
I hope all works out, I am sorry that you and your children are dealing with your husband.
I dealt with a lot of this. I am divorced now (very amicable) and co-parenting is the best thing ever. He always loved the kids and being a dad, so this was an easy choice. My life is so much better in many ways and he finally gets it. I will say I still had to let go of control and I trust him with the kids. Best of luck to you...get an awesome and expensive haircut asap. You deserve it sis...
Good luck girl. And document that shit. I hope you get to protect your own assets and get your fair share of his.
Good for you! I was married to a man child too, except he would come home, plop down after smoking, and watch cartoons "too tired" to help out, even though I worked a full time job, was in grad school AND volunteered.🙄 I knew a year in I was not putting up with this and got divorced. He thought housekeeping was a "woman's job" and he was an "Alpha male"🙄
Men will read stories like this and then lament that women are taking children away from them even though they behave like literal blobs of shit.
My husband did these things that are traditionally attributed to the mother: he'd get off work if a kid was sick, take them to the doctor, said he had to leave to get the kids from school, said he couldn't go out of town for a week for some conference because of the kids and also stayed at home with them during the pandemic when the schools were closed so I could work. He got so... much... sh*t from his colleagues and bosses. "Can't your wife do that?" "Why doesn't your wife do that?" etc. He works in car repairs, a very macho environment, but he actually got the more sh*t from the only woman boss he had. She had children. That really surprised us. They lay off the pressure when during the pandemic he submitted a document from my job saying I was an essential worker (working in healthcare) to be able to keep the kids at home. If he was someone who gave a flying f about all that toxic masculinity coming his way, it would've fallen on me.
Im the only female in my office and often times have been in my career. Don't ask me why but often times it seems people forget I'm a woman (I don't mind it too much, just find it interesting as a social experiment). Sometimes they will mentuon theit wife doing this or that for them and how they are thankfuk they don't have to do said thing. I sometimes have mentioned "Damn I wish I had a stay at home wife to do that for me." And they look at me in the funniest way. So many different realizations going on when they remember I am a woman and a dude could expect that of me while I do the same job as them. And other things.
I don't know why people forget I'm a chick but it has opened some doors to interesting conversations and I hope I have got a few thinking.
I will say, the fact that they don't think of me as a woman, but equal. and instead consider me a bro, is another weird thing to think about.
That's one of the topics I hope is covered in the book: how to handle external pressures and conversations. I have two friends who are a couple and they could take parental leave equally and that's what they chose to do. What happened at their respective work places? They pressured her to take more time ("the kids need their mom") and him to take less time ("we need you here"). Both had leadership positions at their respective jobs. It's a story I've heard over and over. Thankfully they both stuck to their guns and it has paid off immensely: they both know how to parent their kids without the other so time off is truly time off and they both kept their high earning jobs. Guess who can afford to hire someone for the work neither of them likes to do?
I'm always so baffled by the "traditional family" advocates who say kids need a mother and a father, but simultaneously promote an idea of the father that doesn't really involve parenting at all. That argument has never been about the health of the children- if it were, they would actually care about what girls can hope to become as they become women. It's about men getting to keep their status.
@@focusedficus I disagree with your view of the traditional family structure. It was often easier for everyone, the wife, husband, and kids. The arrangement allowed each person to do their 40 hour week either at home or at work. Now, people are required to be doing at least 60 hours if you split the chores 50/50. God forbid it’s not split evenly because then women have to work 70+ hours a week. How is that better?
@@mastersnet18yeah it was so easy that women had to match for their right
@@purplelove3666because some their rights got taken away in the 19th century…..
This is one of the reasons I decided as a kid that marriage wasn’t for me. I hated hearing all the adult women around me about how their husband was their 3rd or 4th child and would fret anytime he had to “babysit” his own children for a couple hours once in a blue moon.
Same. Then these same women will berate you for being single, like sis... I don't wanna be like you 😂
Yeah this is why I quit dating and also part of why I never wanted to have kids. I'm sorry I don't want to raise a dude. I want a whole ass adult.
If you choose to make kids it's your job to watch them and take care of them- for both parents. Why is this so hard?
What Chelsea said in the 34th minute is so true! My sister was also struggling with all her household duties during the marriage, but as soon as she got divorced and her ex-husband was actually taking care of their child 50% of the time, she suddenly found herself massively relieved, with so much more spare time.
I was born in the 80's and I have NEVER seen a heterosexual marriage where the woman's work was considered as valuable as the man's. The more independent women tend to stay single and they have a rough go of it. My own mother paid lip service to equality, while encouraging her daughters to be completely subservient to our dad.
However, I work at an office where women are paid equally and respected. There's extended mat leave, and if the mom (as she frequently does) decides to leave the workforce, the firm eats it as it's the cost of doing business. They continue to hire young women without discriminating.
Nursing?
What do you mean by "they(independent women) have a rough go of it"?
Based on my own experience (for what it's worth), I have seen solo women who are tall poppies have to work harder and suffer greater loneliness than their equally talented male counterparts. They have to be strong ALL the time.@@olilumgbalu5653
HOLY CRAP this podcast completely opened my eyes to something I just assumed was natural: that my time and labor is worth less because I'm a woman. This is amazing, and thank you Chelsea and the whole team for getting Eve on to talk about this issue that affects over 50% of the human population.
Thats fabulous!!
🖤💜💙💚💙💜🖤
Much love!!
"Guarding men's time." That's an interesting point of view I hadn't really looked at before. As a husband that works full time+ and handles the school/doctor and ~ 1/2 the social engagements, it is really hard to get communication from those parties. They always reach out to my wife first despite repeated requests to make me the main point of contact. Every new school year I have to go through the process of making sure they email/call me to communicate and the same goes with every single doctor visit. So many messages get missed because they reach out to the wrong parent. I find it extremely frustrating while dealing with it but I never considered the societal conditioning aspect of it.
Part of my work involves contacting a lot of parents about their kids and while I try to be equitable in which parent I'm contacting, I still end up reaching way more moms than dads. And because the moms are answering, calling back, and engaging with me, it makes less and less sense to target my time and my energy equitably and more and more sense to target just moms, which means I see even less engagement with dads. It's a vicious feedback cycle. I've got to spend my time and energy as efficiently as possible to do my job, and until half the child-rearing population hits the point you're at, I'm incentivized and heavily conditioned to assume that moms will engage and dads will not.
Thats interesting. Where are you from? Here in Australia in the child's file contacts are in order or priority, sometimes 1st point of contact is not even mom or dad at all
Interesting. Do you have habit of not picking up your calls? Usually my kids school will call me and if I don’t pick up they call my husband. Maybe ask your wife to not pick up calls?
@@ang5035 I answer almost all my calls and return the missed ones. My wife does not and rarely checks her voicemail. The reasons aren't relevant except as it pertains to the frustrations of dealing with a society that routinely calls the mother for communication purposes. About 50% of the time they will call me after they don't reach her, otherwise they either continue to try and contact her, leave her a message which I usually won't get, or I will have to reach out to them to finish whatever is needed, if I'm aware of it.
@@rba4377 I'm in the US. Most often, my experience is, even if we're both listed as contacts, I may or may not be contacted next even if they cannot reach my wife. I used to see it as a form of reverse sexism, in which it's just expected that the men don't handle these responsibilities and so there's an almost concerted effort not to reach out even if directed to. Now, thanks to the above video, I've got a broader context with which to examine it. It doesn't make it any less of a pain in the ass, but at least I can see it from a different point of view.
The worst second date I had, the guy said “I’m so glad I met you, my laundry is piling up.” 😂
Not even smart enough to hide his ulterior motives...
In a similar vein, I went on a couple of dates with a guy who said the same thing about exercising, like “you’ll get me to exercise.” No thanks-I don’t need the burden of being your personal trainer, pal. 🙄
Bro is piling red flags as well 😒
nooooooo hate that.
@@squidthing or so entitled and used to mommy serving him.
This issue is exactly why I prefer to be single. Too many times having a partner gives the illusion that there will be a 50/50 split of labor when the real split is 80/20 if you're lucky and at the same time the actual work load has increased because there's twice the dishes, laundry, trash etc. No thanks.
And God forbid you suggest paying less of the bills since you have most of the housework load…. Because THEEEEN (and only then) it’s an unfair distribution of responsibility 🙄
@@rmercedes971 at that point, they'll be calling you a Gold Digger too,
100%. I wish more women would acknowledge this early on vs. being so consumed by the societal expectation to find a husband and get a ring. Getting married does not mean you improved your situation and path in life.
@@LH-yc5vy Right! You can buy yourself a ring if you badly want it! They are not magical, you can walk in a store and buy one.
lol good point about there being more to do with a second person in the house
Can we also talk about weaponized incompetence?
He needs to contribute by paying for weekly maid service. For so many guys, housework is threatening their masculinity.
@@shoshanakirya-ziraba8216 if doing housework threatens their masculinity they might be better paying for therapy.
@@rba4377 so, just to share my thoughts on your comment:
1- I would assume it depends on the career and country, i.e. countries like Netherlands or Germany have very balanced working hours. You don't need to work overtime to focus on your career. Moreover, if the couple has enough money to pay for someone to do all the chores they can surely give quality time to their children
2- That's more likely derived from gender norms, the expectation is set on women to be good mothers and men to be good providers. However, it feels a bit like we're seeing a different point of discussion, I did not perceive the point to be "the wife should be more successful than her husband", rather "men and women should be equally paid for the same work AND women should not be punished career wise due motherhood"
3- This is totally anecdotal, you're taking your one friend as example to ask "why women can't talk about it", anyway, I wouldn't know about your friend but you could ask yourself to understand her position
4- Sure. It would be even better if the government could extend father's paternity leave for more than some days / weeks, like Iceland which offers 13 weeks per parent plus other 13 weeks to split however they see fit. Did I miss something in the conversation about sending women right away to work against their will? (honestly asking because I had this as background while doing other stuff so I may have missed some parts)
5- Of course you can ask about those things as someone who works in childcare. As the father of your children it sounds very weird to me that you don't know whether to feed your children or not, I can't think of a scenario where that makes sense, like ask your children if they're hungry and that's that, unless they're babies or have special needs, but then, wouldn't you be taking over their care from someone and ask that person instead?
6- That's very nice, of course being in a relationship is about supporting each other and I'm glad to read your partner is respectful and kind to you. To me the discussion here is about the extra burden and expectation that depending on your gender you already know how to do something, or excessively relying on your partner for even the little things which will overwhelm them instead of helping
7- From a quick search I find "Overall, while there may be some minor differences in the structure and function of the brains of men and women, these differences do not significantly affect cognitive abilities or behavior. The brain is a complex organ, and its structure and function can vary greatly among individuals of both genders.". So let's say, yes, the brains are different, that doesn't mean we're unable to help each other in a couple to balance the workload of the household, it just means each person should take the tasks they think they'll be better at, not "oh you're better than me at everything so I'll do nothing". I think the fact of taking ownership as they discussed with the tooth fairy is a nice example of doesn't matter if you don't do it perfectly, because you have ownership and I trust you, I won't blame you for a mistake nor burden myself with everything
"And yes, society needs to learn the value of unpaid labour." totally agree 👍
@@sarahhavillamelooliveira5825 Very interesting! It is my choice too...I had a child 4 months ago and I plan to return to work next September, 5 days a week, 6 hours daily. I can say, so far so good! You definitely need time for a newborn. All the best!
Yep my bf said he would pretend to be awful at chores as a child over and over so his mother would get exasperated and do the chore permanently instead. He still constantly needs tutorials when I show him how the washer, dryer, dishwasher or when any detailed/careful cleaning needs to be done. I’m certain I teach him to do the same exact chores every 1-3 years. Worse than a child cause you’d expect an adult to remember anything. He knows how to dismantle any car and what guitar was used on 90s metal albums but doesn’t know the right way to get a stain out??? I think it is actual incompetence in reality but it seems suspicious if you zoom out. I think it is not weaponized so much as so normalized. I’m frankly sick of being 80% of the brainpower of our 2-person household. I’m gonna look into this Fair Play thing.
I'm part of a support group with other women. One husband claims he cannot help with household chores because it triggers his trauma from growing up with hoarder parents. The wife works and takes care of 6 kids. He apparently nags her all the time because there is clutter and messiness in the house. I cannot believe so many women put up with this crap, I am going to recommend this book to her next week. (My relationship isn't perfect but my husband is incredibly supportive, involved with our son and helps with as much around the house as his work schedule allows)
While she definitely shouldn't put it with it, I will confirm that being raised by hoarders really does mess with you, I got pushed the other way, my tolerance for mess is way, way too high. I'll tidy things back to fully clean once they near my threshold, but frankly if it's not liable to rot it isn't getting dealt with until it hits that point. I know it's bad, it's just really hard to see it as a problem.
I’m no psychologist, and I apologize if this sounds insensitive, but that sounds like a pretty damn convenient trauma. He doesn’t have trauma when shit piles up and starts to clutter up, he’s fine living with shit hoarded, but as soon as it comes time to clean, suddenly the trauma comes? Sounds very convenient to me. And they have 6 kids? This guy has trauma from being in a crowded home and he has 6 mother fucking kids? Something doesn’t seem right. I would expect someone who has trauma from hoarding parents to grow up into a neat freak who lives in a minimalist house.
@@erebusvonmori8050 I can totally relate to your comment. I grew up in a hoarding situation (it's ongoing, but I thankfully don't live there anymore), and I also feel it has heightened my tolerance for messiness/dirtiness. My apartment is often tidy, but not "clean" by any means. That is, until I know someone is coming over to visit, then my partner and I will frantically deep clean, lol. But unless we are having guests over, it's really hard to feel motivated to tidy up regularly, because honestly and like you said, I just don't see it as that big of a deal (especially when compared to how bad I know things COULD be, ie.: hoarding). So it feels like as long as I am not letting things get as bad as the situation I grew up in, then it's probably fine, even though that's probably unhealthy :/
@@erebusvonmori8050 I have the opposite problem, lol. One of my brothers has issues cleaning/getting rid of things because of the hoarding in our household, but I went to the other extreme and became full minimalist. I try to hold on to items, but throw out things if I don't use them within a month or two and end up having to re-buy things I already own. Having clutter stresses me out and so I live with very few things. My boyfriend had to buy me a "starter kitchen set" because when he would come over I only had a few pieces of dishware to use lol
Growing up in hoarding situation is no excuse to not fix your issues and be there as an equal partner. I grew up in a hoarder house with almost zero training in independent living skills. My "adulting" capability was near zero when I entered the real world. I started having panic attacks and so my journey to learn all the things I needed to know in order to function and survive was done while also struggling with anxiety. I would never just throw my hands in the air and use it as an excuse to make my partner my servant. That's unacceptable.
I am a full-time parent. What has been most radical for me, which I feel went unspoken in this interview, is that unpaid labor, domestic labor, is legitimate work, with an actual economic contribution. The big lie is that domestic labor is just necessary maintenance like brushing your teeth or eating lunch or going to the bathroom. It just happens and doesn't take any effort or energy. That is not true. When I started looking at my domestic labor the way I would a job, it totally changed my mindset. I started keeping tabs on my time and it really helped me know when I had done enough, when it was time to stop.
It's nuts for women to be working two full time jobs. The idea of task cards isn't just taking the idea of a job and applying it to domestic labor, it is treating domestic labor as the work it actually is.
Great point!
You save your family money in terms of child care also. My guess is you do the cleaning so you save on hiring a cleaner or hiring someone to pick up and deliver your laundry. You save hiring a chef or paying for a restaurant to make your family's meals. You really are doing work.
Everything unpaid!
The devaluation of women’s time is something I’ve never been able to fully except and it absolutely breeds resentment with people who feel like you are just being difficult but l absolutely hate feeling like I worked hard and having someone explain why my work wasn’t as hard as the next while also trying to convince me why it would be to hard for them to do mine so I have to keep doing it
When we talk abouy traditional women's roles, BIPOC women have worked outside the home for all of US history, many times times for white women both pre and post WWII.
That being said, massive reforms are needed across the board. BIPOC women also have high rates of single parenting, so it's particularly crucial for us. And so many young women across the board are choosing not to get married and have children because they see how the cards are stacked against us.
Such an important point to make
Honestly, being married sounds worse than being a single parent. It sounds like these women are essentially married/single mothers with an extra child that’s lazy, demanding, entitled, and has the final word. That’s a nightmare! It would be comedy if it wasn’t so inherently depressing. How can you be the head and the tail at the same time?
@@peacefreedom4930 My friend is visiting me. She's going through a divorce. She is taking so much of the mental load, even now! Her stories are similar to your description, but somehow she feels responsible for everything.
I'm pasty but I'm from a Hispanic background. The pressure to HAVE kids is also really intense for BIPOC. If you come from a traditional or conservative family - oh my god, if you're 20 without kids you're like defective 🙃
@@snailart14 My parents were bitter from their divorce, so that took pressure off of me. But make yourself happy. 🥰
In a Michael Chabon book of essays he was amazed by how many people came up to him while he was grocery shopping with his kids to tell him what a great parent he was. If he were female people wouldn't see this as going above and beyond. It would just be a Tuesday.
On the flip side, women garner much more praise when they perform in male-dominated careers, like coding or entrepreneurship.
@@mousquetaire86 maybe because getting to top positions in male dominated fields is quite hard for women, considering the silent pushback we receive from many sides. While learning how to manage a household without someone (wife, spouse, mother) constantly prompting you to do a rightful half, doesn't come with a plethora of colleagues who won't listen to you because you are not a man.
@@mousquetaire86 I thought they were getting sidetracked in a male dominated field
@@mousquetaire86 oh, yes, the famous "female coder stans". Like I just wish they'd shut up about their dumb lady idols already!
Oh wait that's Elon Musk's groupies I'm thinking about.
Once was infuriated by a guy at my work telling me that he got free stuff because he was a guy buying typically womanly things.
Yet if a woman was to do the same it would be overlooked or judged???
This episode was so amazing. I'm 21 and have watched every woman in my life struggle with division of labor and burnout. It's so normalized in our culture. I'm working to break those generational cycles and help the women in my life now.
Not having a magical vagina that tells me what my in-laws want for their birthday this year killed me. I’m stealing that line for sure 😂
Same omg looool
This entire video gave me vaginal dryness and made me genuinely THANKFUL thatI am single and have never been married. I will setlle for nothing less than someone who is my PARTNER.
Same here. Reading comments like this strengthen my resolve to not settle for less
SAME
😂❤
Ah, come on, everybody must make some mistakes😂😂😂😂
My husband was taught how to fix cars and do some house repairs by his father and grandfather. But anything that was considered a household duty he was never shown. He cannot cook, never learned to iron (I'm currently teaching him), wasn't shown how to clean (his parents tend to skip cleaning), he never learned to do laundry so in college his mother would drive 300miles, one way, every other week to come do his laundry and take him grocery shopping, pet maintenance mostly fell to his mom, etc. And yes his mother had a full time job in a STEM field, she just also did everything around the house including growing and canning a lot of their food. I had no idea about any of this until several months into our relationship. Please teach your sons to be self sufficient! I'll be honest and say my mother didn't want to teach me anything because she preferred to be alone. So I grew up and learned it all myself.
The absolute ability to learn things on your own, in the Age of the Internet, is what makes this perpetual male incompetence so unacceptable. Literally, just Google it.
I have heard a lot of ridiculuos things about this topic. I have never heard something as insane as a mother driving 300 miles to do laundry for her son.
@@anthill1510 My aunt did all of my cousin's homework for him for the last 3 years of his time in public school because he didn't want to do it himself. He was 15 - 17.
I was never taught. I had to Google how to cook a pork roast. But we all learn. Don’t be the teacher of a man. What an excuse we have that they don’t know how
Laundry is so easy though 🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️
Im in a battle with my husband for some time now trying to make him understand that when he does any chores he’s doing it for US instead of for ME. He insists in avoiding the problem
Same.
Get rid of that man.
Look up "how to tell if he hates you" because it sounds like he hates you.
It is also such a cultural norm. I work days and my husband works nights so we can take care of our kids without day care (cost prohibitive). The school has my husband as the primary since he is available during school hours but the school still calls me and emails me first 🤦♀️
Unrelated to the topic lol, that's the school's choice.
@@ilai7893you commented on this channel 2w ago saying you wouldn’t be in the audience anymore. Did you stick around just to argue?
@@-natmac GET EM ❤️
@@-natmac Seeing as they're wrong and being inflammatory, I think you're right 😅
Omg, yes. Seems like every year my husband and I have to remind the school nurse that it's my husband who is the SAHD and the primary contact for medical needs. While I understand that they call if they don't reach him right away if our child is ill, I have to gently but firmly remind them that the requests for immunization records etc. all go through *him*.
It’s so difficult though because many men don’t actually respect their wife enough to respond to her plea to communicate and figure these things out. The burden is still on the woman to initiate and get the buy in from their husband and if the husband is being cared for, they don’t have an incentive to do more.
The emotional labor continues to fall primarily to the woman, even if the men are helping with running the home. You're right.
Yep… it’s the respect.
“The antidote to burnout is taking an interest in your own life.” Fantastic quote and fantastically brilliant conversation.
The funny thing is, the least infantilized boy I ever met is the son of lesbian parents including one of my cousins. I was able to have a hard conversation with that boy (with the topics adjusted so a 5-year-old could understand them in the first place) and he handled that conversation with far more maturity than most grown men who actually exist - a maturity that is more on par with the type of men that a lot of folks lament over and mythicize (not realizing that their infantilizing of sons is a big part of why a lot of men grow up to act immature - that, and adding pressure to hide one's emotions and channel all negative feelings that can't be suppressed into anger, which does no favors and has no effect on the maturation process).
This would have been helpful to me when I was married. I was mentally doing so badly in marriage to the point that I was happier in some inpatient psychiatric facilities than at home. Communication and boundaries have always been extremely tough for me because of the way I was raised and the violence I endured outside of my family. I'm so happy there is someone talking openly about this topic and helping women have these conversations.
Ugh the “you never reminded me” I hear from my dad all the time to me. I love my parents, they are divorced and they have their separate issues. Neither of my parents wanted to do anything. My time is never valued with my dad. I always had to move around my schedule even though he works from home with his own business, but I am a full time student and worker. I stopped putting up with him last year and he started throwing tantrums…..men are so emotional! I now am at a 4 yr university and loving it. Men need to stop this learned helplessness and not paying attention. I am excited to pick up this book and read it over break.
In his defense though, it also just comes from how you get raised.
A lot of men just aren't taught that kind of stuff matters. So they don't look for it. Reminding them can help, ofc it's a double edged sword because if you keep reminding him he'll claim you're nagging.
So your point remains valid and apt at the end of the day.
Thank you for plugging the library! I’m a librarian and it drives me nutty when influencers talk about audible and bookstores but don’t bring up the library ❤
I love my local library system
OMG, The school thing is legit. My husband is first on the call list for our kids schools. They call me first every. single. time. Even though my husband has remind them that he is primary contact repeatedly, they still call me first. This is the case with multiple services are kids use, like medical supply delivery company, the doctor's office. One time my husband called the pediatrician and they told him I had to sign a waiver to allow them to talk to him, even though he is listed as their father, and as the primary contact. So my husband is TRYING to pull some of the mental load, but these places won't let him.
My husband tells me he just isn't capable of noticing when he leaves trash or dirty dishes around the house and it annoys the crap out of me. I'm like you don't notice because you don't care because you think you shouldn't have to care!!
Funny bc those same men notice that sort of stuff in a work setting like in the military barracks or at a store they manage or whatever. They also often tend to notice that stuff when single before a date comes over... weird
It sounds like your husband believes things just magically get cleaned on their own. See this link to a TH-cam video that fully describes this phenomenon: th-cam.com/video/-_kXIGvB1uU/w-d-xo.html
There are people with lower tidiness standards than yours. As long as they do not demand that you do the chores instead of them, it seems fair to me not to bother them too much. If you can't lower your cleanliness standards, hire a maid or leave them alone and choose a naturally tidy partner. It's a torture to live with somebody obsessed with mundane stuff, really.
@@NetokrateI appreciate that perspective but as a daughter who grew up in a family where kids and the father were exempt from household labor, that’s not actually what happens. I had the same mindset as my brothers and my dad in that I was disgusted by household chores and didn’t want to do them. I loudly resisted my poor mother’s attempts to institute chores, so I feel some authority in putting words to the psychology of people with “lower standards” because that’s exactly what I said to my mother.
Everyone prefers a clean environment. That’s just a human trait. If a five star hotel and a motel had the same price, we’d stay in the five star. For people living on their own, in the dirty “bachelor pad,” they feel that the mess they live in is less repulsive, less mentally off-putting, than the act of cleaning/learning to clean.
What would happen with me was that when I was asked to clean something, two things would happen: I would be more disgusted by physically interacting with the mess than by leaving the mess where it was, and I would understand that household labor was beneath me and so I would put up with the mess because it felt less demoralizing than household labor. It’s a rhetorical ploy to try and have your cake and eat it too.
As I’ve been living on my own I’ve been feeling very repulsed by this. When there’s someone who wants to stay neat and clean it’s easy to take advantage of them and I’m 100% guilty of that.
@@mrslvw I used to be a store manager. Id often say to men: you'd never expect someone else in the office to do your work for you and pick up after you. Why do you expect your wife to do that at home?
I think there's something here for many women--even if they don't have children. I'm childless by choice but often struggle with the concept of "unicorn time" and often feel guilty about pursuing things I'm passionate about like art and music, especially if the kitchen floor needs to be swept or the trash needs to be taken out. I'll start nervously filling my free time with small tasks and then feel burnt out when I finally sit down to do something creative. My BF does help out equally with the household labor, but I still feel guilty and non-productive when he's cleaning and I'm creating. I've been asking myself why this is the case when I have more free time now than I ever had before in my life, and I think you and Eve have really hit a nerve here. Thanks, Chelsey! Your podcast is very eye-opening.
Yesss! Claim you time! You deserve to have hobbies💕
I had a coworker that I mentally supported through her second pregnancy while also on the way to being a shift leader. She was so damn stressed all the time and would always thank me so much for just understanding how busy she was. She worked hella hours while heavily pregnant and her husband still expected her to take care of her first child and all the chores when she came home. I couldn't understand why she put up with how uncaring her husband was to her pain, the literal mother of his children. We would joke that I was her emotional partner or something because of how little he paid attention to her concerns. I think she left him after having her second if I remember correctly. Or I hope she did, she deserved so much better. It made me never feel regret for not being in or wanting a het relationship.
This book saved my marriage. I was a stay at home mom with a wife and we had developed so many of the same problems described here. Buying the cards and having these conversations led to my wife having a realization that she had unwittingly stepped into her own patriarchal father's role in our home. It was something I had been trying to explain for years. We don't use the cards anymore, but I keep them handy if we need a refresher. 😊
And here we are at the holiday season with a massive uptick in family and work activities. I used to feel the need to do everything that measured up to 'the Magic of Christmas', (despite not being religious), with tracking down gifts, buying the food, decorating the house, sending cards, taking kids to school festive activities, etc. This would all crescendo with the big Christmas dinner where my husband would ask if I need any help and just call him when I needed him. Then he would disappear from the kitchen, until everything went to the table.
I generally dislike the holiday season now. I minimally decorate the outside of the house, since we live on an overly decorated street, to avoid public shame. My husband does most of the gift buying now because we have sons, while I put together stockings. I work Christmas Eve, so there is no big dinner on Christmas day.
One year the Christmas tree did not go up, because I said if they wanted one up they were welcomed to put it up. They missed having a tree, so they put it up next year, but were too lazy to decorate it. I had to pack the tree away, putting my back up in the process. That tree went up on FB marketplace for free the next year. We now get the smallest live tree, which requires no time to put up.
Women are already running on fumes prior to December. I've tried to pick the traditions I care about and ditch the ones that don't work. Most of the guilt came from me and the anger from expectations I had of my family. Unpacking that guilt and anger allowed me to unload the societal pressure. December is now more relaxed for me.
With that said, my dream is to one year fly to Australia for the month of December and not think once about lifting a finger for the season. Does that make me a Grinch? Happily.
Welcome, fellow Grinch! My mom is sincerely puzzled at why I gave up on obligatory gift giving and receiving ten years ago, will not decorate and find decorating for someone else to be a burden, and basically dread Christmas family time so much that I have scheduled trips just to spend Christmas somewhere else. The truth is that the stress of preparing the perfect holiday got to her, so it has never felt like a chill, enjoyable time for family.
I love this!
@@rosabellaalvarez-calderon4586 My partner and I also just decided, after this past holiday, that we would not be doing gifts next year, letting everyone know in advance of course, not to expect any from us or buy any for us! I'm already relieved for next year lol But I'm slightly nervous about how my in-laws will react haha
I fully recognize my husband is a unicorn. He picks up our kids more than me and if something isn't done he just does it. He helps clean up and will ask me what I need help with. I don't have to ask him to make the boys breakfast or anything. He gets up before I do and just does it. All this makes me want to jump his bones everyday bc I have the energy to do it.
My ex was lazy and that's why we are not together. I much rather be alone than have to take care of grown ass man.
Living the dream now!
It really is depressing how little work men do around the homes and for their families. And why I was so shocked after moving out because that’s not how my mom raised her boys. And she’s Puerto Rican so Latin culture loves to make excuses for why boys don’t need to learn to do chores. Hell, her dad did most of the housework too, and this was in the 1960s! My mom made sure that my brother and I could take care of a house so that we weren’t dependent on a spouse’s labor. Like my parents’ friends were shocked that I wasn’t coming home every holiday from college with just mountains of laundry for my mom to clean because she had the common sense to teach me how to do laundry when I was 10!
Thank you for this video. I'm fortunate to have a husband who does a lot of household duties on his own. Before we moved in together, he lived with a male friend who was divorced and had shared custody of a young child. My husband found himself compensating for the household duties that his friend's ex-wife no longer had to do. It annoyed him severely, and now he's much more aware of ensuring that we both reasonably have household responsibilities.
Reminds me of a friend of mine. His mother left the household. His father, his brother and himself were mad at her, calling her names for abandoning them. Then time pasts and someone has to do the work, so he did. Then he was the one mad at his father and brother. Now he wishes that his mother left sooner for her own good. He also left as soon as he could.
Blessed
People,
1. For my people who don't have kids. You can identify these types of behavior BEFORE yall get married.
How often do I have to remind my partner about tasks I asked them to do? How often do they volunteer to help with something, and I still have to remind them? How often do they need a sob story, tears, yelling, a sit-down face-to-face to change something I don't like? How often must I give them a explanation?
I see this in my dating life all the time, and those people have removed bc of it.
2. Asked and Answered.
I know this typically is associated with asking witnesses questions in court, but the concept applies here. Your partner asked you to do or stop doing something, and you Just Do It! That's it. No, back and forth, no side steps.
Why does your partner need convincing if they love you? Why does your partner decide if your story is good enough to make them take up a task? Let's practice this, yall. Ask for something, and when they ask you why? Just say it makes me uncomfortable, or I don't like it, and I want it to stop.
Why re-traumatize yourself to dig deep for a sob story about trash. If they ask you why then you ask them why you need an explanation for something both parties are involved in.
I wish someone would have told me this when I was in high school (though there wasn't really anyone to do so). I had such trouble with my boyfriend because no matter how much I asked, how I argued, if I broke down and sobbed or screamed or made a logical point, nothing would make him do even the most basic thing if he didn't enjoy it. It took me 4 years (well past high school) to realize that he would never, ever change and that I would never get a single thing I wanted if I was with him. When I broke up with him I was very upset, but it was such a relief that I'd never again have to spend hours extracting a promise to just call me (long distance) that would never be honored.
When my cousin was 12 or so, my aunt went on a business trip from the east coast to the west coast. I think it was a total of three or four days her (then) husband was expected to care for their three sons. Among the many calls of absolute nonsense she received, one was for my cousin, looking for a pencil. She was 3000+ miles away. His father was in the next room on the couch.
She chose him,
@@purplelove3666 Well, most men are like that. So let's not blame the women for not having any other choices. Shine the light back on men where it belongs.
Beautifully put, the title doesn't do the depth of this episode justice. This is something we've been practicing for some time, not knowing there was a whole movement & book for it! Validating. Thank you for this episode.
Yeah I am not feeling the title at all....takes away from the conversation
What a lady! 47:00 I related to this so much. I grew up in Hawaii in a rural area so bugs and rodents were inevitable. I learned how to be a ninja because of flying cockroaches. It was very traumatic even though I make jokes about it now since I don’t live there. But it’s been a life long trigger to me and has made me a clean/control freak. I only recently explained this to a new roommate, after years of people thinking I’m just a Monica from friends, and told them what trash/mess makes me relive being a little girl afraid of all the bugs. If you left trash overnight, you had flies in the day and then maggots the next morning. If you left dishes in the sink, you had roaches in the pipes. If you left crumbs on the ground, you had mice and ants. If you ever grew up hearing the sound of insects everywhere so bad that you couldn’t sleep, you’ll never understand why keeping a house clean can be so important to some people.
I have never understood the concept of the "hunny do" list. The idea that I have to make my husband a list of what needs to be done around the house is very puzzling to me. Then again I've spent most of my life as a single mom. In my current marriage, my husband and discuss what we are prioritizing for the day but he was a single dad for many years.
What the heck? Why not make a to do list together and then each person can pick what to do. Or alternatively just talk about it? No wonder marriage feels like work for some people🤦🏽♀️
I also have never cared for the "hunny do list". I also do not like the "work wife" description. As one person who commented above, you do wonder how this type of men even get and maintain a job.
@@bunnybaker2289 Huh? Why do you have to make a list? Are they a child? Men know and just choose not to do anything acting like they don't know how to do certain things when they do! Its called weaponized incompetence...most men do this all the time and most are in relationships so someone can smother them, do all the labor and to get access to women's bodies like men don't actually like women.
The beginning of this video is literally a conversation I have with friends all the time! It’s not just the housework, but also the emotional labor of being a partner of someone going out into the world and dealing with having a career. My husband is burnt out at work, and can’t catch a break, he works 50-60 hours a week, and has no room for me and my work problems.
Would he find room for dating if he was single? Sounds harsh but they need to prioritize their partners too.
@@jelemil I’m not saying he would, what I’m saying is that both partners having the stress of a full time job, on top of maintaining a home, on top taking care of dependents, is just an unrealistic set up.
@@taylorgayhart9497 i agree its unrealistic, and we still need to make time for our loved ones.
@jelemil often times men like this find time to cheat lol
When I was pregnant with our first child, my husband said out loud that he wanted to be the "assistant parent." My brother, who is married and has no children, said that I should be the primary caregiver of our aging mother and our disabled brother while I was home educating our three kids because I was "just at home" and he was busy at work. We both lived about 100 miles away from Mom and our brother.
And when he retired, rather than taking on the responsibility that he said he would take on once his work was finished, he moved to Florida. He used my favorite: "You are so much better at it anyway."
Let me guess. To some extent, that brother of yours (not the disabled one) never really cared about the family he grew up with. Even though he potentially has/had more time and flexibility as an adult with no children.
Who the heck are you people marrying ,and are you just getting to know your future husbands favorite foods or getting to know them for marriage purposes
@ktdaum I'd tell him you are sending his mom and bro cuz you are too busy, so you can't do it any of it anymore so Florida Brother us better at it because he had time. 😅
I work from home, my husband and I live with my mother. There is an unsaid/written assumption that it’s my responsibility to keep the house clean, shovel the walk/driveways in the winter, get multiple jobs(I have a full time job, a 30+ hour a week part time job and I freelance while I am trying to finish my master’s degree) and I’m exhausted.
My husband has slowly picked up things some of the grocery shopping, intermittent pet care, but he always does his own laundry.
But I can’t keep up, I’m exhausted, the house is chaotic but it’s my responsibility. I’m even in trouble with my mother for not being able to pay foe 2/3s of her mortgage payment.
I’m exhausted and constantly fighting a cold, I had a tumor in my thyroid, severe inflammation in my whole body, and of course depression. I just don’t see a way out or relief because no matter what my housemates say, they never pick up the slack. I’ve been in tears begging them to help but when they do it’s the absolutely barest minimum so I just end up re-doing it. It’s a sick sick cycle.
I would stop doing everything...honestly. If they won't help, it wouldn't get done. And did you say shovel snow??? oh hell no....when my ex-husband refused to shovel I knew it was over. I really knew it was the end. You are not a work mule dear...so sorry you are going through this. Take care of yourself and set boundaries. So what it they don't like it. Give up some control and take your life back. Sending you much love.
uhh...ur literally gonna drop dead soon if u don't put your foot down now.
Start setting clear limits based on your energy level. Communicate your limits and give your smaller contribution with love and joy.❤️
can you leave? maybe get a non-familial roommate or strike out on your own? sometimes ultimatums -- either help out or I'm leaving -- are the only way. if you're this sick and your husband still isn't helping, the relationship hardly seems worth it.
If you can afford 2/3 of a mortgage you can probably rent a small place just for you: less to clean and just you to take care of! Easier said then done, but your situation sounds like the definition of hell to me 😢 I wish you the best
My ex did so many stupid things w/r/t the care of our baby that I preferred to do it all myself. Did he do stupid things to get out of having to be responsible for things? I think so, yes. He also did housework in a half-assed way. So I ended up doing the housework myself, too. The only time I felt relaxed and not over worked was when he was traveling for work. One of the many reasons why we are no longer together. He can go half-ass his way through life with someone else...
Really glad to hear he's an ex
I really hope the book has the answer to that.
@@hdzmiriam I read both her books. The solution is to establish a minimum standard (theres6some acronym for it) so both parties agree that XYZ conditions are met for each specific task (like vacuuming for example means it's done at least weekly and all major areas done with no visible crumbs, but not necessarily going under all furniture or moving it to get behind sofa and that lines are nice but aren't required). Both partners agree and come to decision on what "good enough" is. That way no one is fighting over towels being folded perfectly as long as put away.
I think is so important to work on this things before making big commitments such as kids and marriage.
My friend told me a few months back that in her previous 10-year relationship her partner was so selfish because he had his mind made up about no kids and marriage that he never asked her what she wanted in those areas... FOR 10 YEARS! why didn't she ever bring it up herself? Why can't women talk and work through their beliefs, morals and needs with men before making big commitments such as marriage and kids?
Both of you were immature. Why did you put up with it and just start doing more is totally toxic!
I believe this is why a lot of women are opting out of marriage and having kids. I believe both girls and boys should be taught minimal level of care and that its everyone's responsibility.
Like these ladies said, if you can go to work and do tasks without being told, you can do the same in the house.
Great point
This is one of the best conversations I've listened to in a while. I'd love to hear more about addressing learned helplessness with our children. This hit home, "other countries have chosen to have social safety nets, in America, we've chosen to have women."
A lot of this makes it seem that only if the conversation was had with men that would help solve the unequal division of labor. However…
I’ve never been married and am not currently in a relationship is because I had the conversation and at the beginning of the relationship the men were all for it but as the relationship progressed the men would finally admit “you know what I want the traditional model” they get very frustrated with equality because it is very hard for them. I even had a guy disdainfully say “oh you are not domestic”. So that whole conversation has not worked for me at all. I want an equitable relationship but I’d rather be single that be in an inequitable one.
You’re filtering out the lazy ones, which is a good thing. The guys who are actually interested in you (and interested in improving themselves) will not be scared away by that conversation.
this is some real feminist work I could see uniting women across many different identities ... I think it was a different financial diet video where a guest said "it's was easier to make women into lawyers than it is to get men to do household labor". I think pushing the narrative of women's time and labor being valuable is how we do it. People who give birth should literally be given stipends and payment from the government for that labor. It's a hell of a more humanizing and dignified approach than forced birth.
They do in other countries. It’s called maternity leave.
LOVED listening to this and sent to my female friends and family. I have seen my mother develop auto immune disorder because of this imbalance. Many of us understand fundamentally this topic, however lack the knowledge and lexicon to speak to it. Thank you! I need to compile a list of TH-cam videos with power to change lives…this will be the first video 📣
I was with my ex for a decade. One week after I left and moved across the country with our two kids, he called me to ask where the yeast is in the grocery store and what kind of socks does he wear so he could get more. I hung up on him.
And yet you chose to be with him and have kids.. Who is the dumb one, really?
when i finally got the courage to divorce my ex husband, he texted me months later to ask what size underwear HE wears….
@@49er16 You can't always foresee these things. Even if this woman noticed this level of titanic incompetence in her man before marrying him, she likely understandably hoped it would change, as any adult can reasonably be expected not to be and not to remain an overgrown toddler.
@@49er16 And you chose to blame the woman. Keep talking about who's the dumb one. Cause it sure aint her pal.
On today's episode of oversharing:
I am a cishet male son of two parents. And listening through this makes me so happy that I'm not alone. I think many men like myself feel this "learned helplessness" in some many more ways than one.
A few weeks ago, I had to travel for my work which is normally remote and work-from-home. But even something AS SIMPLE AS THAT turned into pointless squabbling.
Why? Both my mom and dad were insisting that I was "doing it wrong." Mom through implication, dad through "masc" honesty. The mindset in my household seems to default to: "You need us to teach you."
And there's the problem. This is MY SELF GROWTH. You aren't making me feel I OWN IT. And if this is MY EXPERIENCE AS A MAN, I can ONLY IMAGINE how much harder women have it!
But I'm not perfect. To be honest, I admit outright: the only difference between me and an actual adult toddler is that I never gave a crap about what "a real man" is. But that alone doesn't address the problem.
Sorry to end in pessimism but I come from the Philippines. And some "Filipino values" like the (over)glorification of family are going make it so hard to implement "fair play" here.
I, at least, have the privilege of close friends and colleagues who do show me to value time not like sand or diamonds. Time is my life. And I shouldn't be wasting it. No one should.
Why are your parents in your ear during decisions like these in the first place? Do you live with them? I understand people live with their parents for other reasons than laziness. That takes a lot of boundaries navigating that really young adults don't have the learned life experience to deal with. I'm 34 and still if I had to live with my parents again we'd be at each other's throats constantly. Some parents didn't have kids to grow them up and let them have their own lives.
My classic dad with the 'work 60 hours a week so I don't have to deal with home' mindset was in for a rude awakening when my mom left one night. Bad enough was dinner often not being on the table but his dynamic as a dad truly came crashing down. To be fair, he did improve generally greatly and learn over time and my mom had said she would go back to work and never did, but it was constantly a problem. He did not know what he was doing even if you told him what you needed.
The memories of having your hair roughly combed or not being picked up from school and more sat alongside the warm fuzzy ones to this day in retrospect and invalidated the security you thought you had, were gathering around yourself like a security blanket frantically.
My relationship with him has only fully improved after age 20, my sister moving out, and the reality of the optionality of a relationship with his daughters set in. My sister has to agree to him coming to her house now. The quality and existence of it was on him, palpably, now. Such a relief to not feel maybe it would be better to have no parents, and the terror of that.
I said this before when Chelsea first brought up this book a few weeks ago but that video made me realize that even when it's not just with a romantic partner but also with friends who are male. I really that i was unconsciously taking a role of "the mother" with this friend. Like it was super easy too. Like my male friend always just seemed to "need" me to make the platonic version of domestic work like planning all of our outings and even researching schools and trainings for him. Like it just felt super normal for me to go out of my way to make his life easier. I've since realized that this also came from a place of pity because I was in a better place financially then he was so i had to compensate by doing a lot of things for him. This made me think of my own brothers. I remember asking one of my brothers to wash his dishes. Not the dishes, his dishes but he said, "since when?". Like am still upset any that till this day and till this day, he still leaves his dirty dishes in the sink. Like we need to do better. Like most of these man are being raised in single family households so if we can't even lay down the law for our younger brothers and sons, how are we supposed to do it with a romantic partner?
I had to learn this when my parents divorced and my older sister moved out. Aside from cooking because I am a culinary grad, he was expecting me to clean the entire house and do all the laundry….I was 16. When I visit the house is dirty, and unless there is something dangerous like shattered glass, I do not clean. His vacuum is broken and I have never seen him use a broom.
ok so who did your brother's dishes? was you you? mom? the dish fairy, lol
@@Kelle-Michelle he did them and i thought it was the start of breaking that pattern but then our mom (who works most of the day and i feel compensates for this) went back to doing the dishes for him so he went right back to outfit his dirty in the sink 😡
I looked this book up, I was really sad to see that the Amazon SEO suggested books about how to "not hate your husband" and "fed up how to handle all the emotional labor" that were trying to teach women how to stay with toddler men and deal with it.
This needs to be seen by everyone.
Literally 🙏
Excellent podcast! After listening to the section about physical pain, I'm wondering if my chronic migraines for the last 15 years of my 19-year marriage are connected to the 80% or more unpaid work I do around the house in addition to working full-time.
And it’s not just in marriages it’s extended families too. As we deal with aging elders in our family my sisters and I are feeling hard how much weight the women carry vs. the men. Between the expectations of caregiving in and out of my home while managing a special needs child and demanding career I am drinking for the first time in my life not just socially and occasionally with friends but to take the edge off and quiet my racing mind. Skipping workouts, not able to find time with friends while watching the men kind of just continue their own needs and routines. But unlike the tooth fairy if we drop the tasks we’re doing there are actual lives at stake.
I realize that I've always been reluctant to enter any sort of romantic relationship because subconsciously I knew my time would be eaten up significantly and I wouldn't have enough energy for what I want to do in my life.
This conversation is SO important!!!!!! Thank you for all the insights.
(White, male, hetero, married with kids) I think that we do pretty well. I do the laundry for the household, kids, and myself. I also do all the dishes, the trash, and the finances. I also take care the kids get to school in the morning. My wife does the shopping, the cooking (because she HATES dishes), and more of the holiday stuff. I also totally take care of the kids two nights a week when my wife has events/activities. I think what has helped us is that we talk about this a lot. Directly. And we try to make sure that each person gets equal amounts of rest. It's also super clear that our relationship is not the norm. Again - talking about all of our labor and being able to listen to each other without getting defensive.
I don't think this is an equal split of mental labour. The laundry, dishes and trash don't require mental focus, nor do they take much time. Grocery shopping is a big one - your wife needs to plan meals, make sure everyone in the house enjoys the food, keep an inventory of what is in the house and what needs buying, commute to the store whatever the weather, come up with solutions if something is out of stock, carry the groceries, and then make food for you and your kids at specific times when you are hungry, which means she needs to plan her time around you. You take care of the kids 2 nights a week? what about the other 5? Holidays are very stressful when planning for a whole family by the way.
The not getting defensive part is tricky and important. For my male partner that's his default move - requests are met with "but I did ABC already!" Or "I did that last time.". And it took me a long time to learn not to respond to that initial resistance with anger or my own list of what I've already done.
I also have to work on articulating that cleaning is an ongoing thing, there are no tasks that are "one-and-done". So frequent direct convos really help with making the dynamic equitable.
@@kaeb0_o264 We men have a lot to unlearn about expectations and work at home. I may be helpful to find a different time to sit down together and chart out the tasks and frequency and then put them on a calendar. I think that makes it much more obvious that somethings have to get done many more times than others. And I love the other posters comment about mental effort. It's definitely important to talk about. I read this awesome book - How to keep house while drowning. It really helped me think about the cleaning tasks in a new way - like equal rest rather than equal work. The book is super short and written for a neurodiverse audience. 100% recommend.
@Teodora Lovin i thought the same thing when I read that. He's proud that he takes care of his kids, who are 50% his, 29% of the week. Gold trophy
@@teodoralovin5797 his example didn't seem like equal division, yes. But if one person prefers to cook, they also usually prefer doing groceries so they can plan the meals around it. A friend's husband likes cooking, so he also does groceries (or they go together) and meal plans. I think certain tasks just sorta get grouped together. Childcare is trickier
Love this so much! My partner has come a long way since we first started dating as far as equal work goes. I quickly realized that his mother never taught him accountability around the house. She had 7 kids and picked up after every single one. Shortly after dating, I realized that my boyfriend was, quite literally, the adult equivalent of a toddler. He quickly picked up on the fact this was not acceptable with me. Luckily, he took to learning but still a bit more work to be done! Definitely going to check out the book.
This woman is amazing. She's so realistic and I love so many things about this. I love that she doesn't vilify the men through the process, or solely blame them. I love that her book is fully research based. I love that her knowledge on this topic is so thorough and she truly understands and cares about it. I love that what she created is an actionable approach to the issue, and has even followed up with her second book guiding people through their new found freedom in a research-based, healthy way. This is phenomenal. Thank you
Now that I make more than my husband, he is the one who takes time off to pick up kids early from school or take them to the doctor. I get comments from other mom sometimes when my youngest shows up with clothes a that don’t fit him to a play date. I honestly always say the same: “it’s not a reflection of me as a mother, but him as a father” he is a grown ass man , he can figure it out
I'm sitting on the couch crocheting and listening to this while my husband is making soup in the kitchen during his lunch break (works from home). I never assumed the full maid role and got him cooking, cleaning, doing the mental labor for keeping things running. I'm lucky that he agrees it's about teamwork not his ego. And yes, our sons are toddlers still but they see him do all the things - the dishes, the laundry, the cleaning, the cooking etc.
Don't worry, I also work. Just taking a break right now.
I feel like there’s a way to combine our thinking about gendered labor divides in marriages and the way we value/devalue work that’s traditionally thought of as “women’s work” - like, when folks do pay to cover domestic labor (cleaning, childcare, clothing production & maintenance) who is taking on that work and how are they compensated? I feel like this is a space where there’s a lot of opportunity for solidarity between white women & women of color. If we advocate for increasing the prestige & compensation for work traditionally thought of as “women’s labor” that would benefit people across races & classes
Hopefully that all made sense, I’m just starting to think about this as I’ve been talking a lot with my sister about fast fashion and the laborers and labor conditions for folks who produce our fabric & sew our clothes
@@amelomari8250 Yes, you made sense. :) More traditionally women's work that is horribly undervalued and underpaid is psychology, counseling, teaching, nursing, home health aides, nursing assistants, medical assistants, and social work of all kinds.
All of these are, of course, very non-essential to the basic functioning of our society and women only choose "bad" low paying majors because they're dumb and make bad financial decisions. 🤦♀️🤪😵💫
@@amelomari8250 If you're interested in learning more about the negative effects of the fast fashion industry, I highly recommend the book, 'Stitched Up: The Anti-Capitalist Book of Fashion'.
Education is so important and so difficult to undo. I'm a genderfluid person who was raised as a girl, and I see plenty of trans people who were raised as boys have the same issues as cis men - they haven't been taught to take care of themselves properly and are now very confused as adults because, oh no! They didn't become cis guys who married submissive cis girls, and now they have to figure out how to function on their own. The wakeup call is BRUTAL.
Parents, just raise your goddamn kids.
That’s because sex is real and you can’t just identify out of it. Transmen are men, as in, adult human males
I'm a trans woman and it is a lot to suddenly take on.
It's like we get taught different things and I can take care of other stuff but basic stuff that involves my own home feels so alien and foreign to me.
I can diagnose a car in 20 minutes, fix basically anything made of wood or metal. I know how to create circuits, basic coding, how to solder, how to improvise tools, even how to fight.
But no one ever taught me too really bake, cook, or anything more advanced.
No one thought it be important to learn how to shop for groceries?
I guess I finally got a handle on it at 25, but cleaning and stuff is still something I gotta make myself do.
When I had trans masc roommates, it eventually just got to the point where I wouldn't eat because I didn't feel like spending money nor cooking.
They'd always be cooking up something delicious but meh, I wouldn't ask most times. Eventually, it just boiled down to, " I'll do a thing for you if you give me food later!"
So I'll do chores around the house, fix their car, or help them in some other way. And when they cook later, they'll give me some.
the problem is that they are MEN, lol
My husband is a SAHD. I am the breadwinner. Yesterday my husband called the school office to let them know my son was out sick and left a VM.
Two minutes later, the school nursed called my cell. Ever see that mcsweeneys article about that ? This is the school nurse, and I need to talk to you, the mom!
Our child had a speech delay from being at home for mostly 2 years over the pandemic (she was born about 6 months before), and had sensory issues and toe-walking. From birth on, I've handled 90% of doctor's appointments, and for the therapy, all of it. That time period of about a year and half of speech therapy and occupational therapy almost drove me to divorce, I was already expected to be the person taking off anytime our child was sick, and having to juggle the odd working hours and constant leave I still incurred as a result of this very needed thing for my child was deeply impacting my work.
I finally cornered my husband on all of it mid last year and being 'like, we're roommates co-parenting a child and I'm doing 90% of it and I don't care that you don't like making dinner most nights because that's what you do in order to avoid the work of parenting.' Therapy has helped, but there's still very unequal footing regarding parenting - it's constant nagging to get him to look at reading material on parenting now while our child is in this developing stage, and I get very defensive when he gets critical of something I do regarding her because it feels like he's backseat parenting.
All this. I was seriously dating a guy for almost five years, where his mom did everything for him. He was lazy and felt entitled to everything. I worked a lot, and I think he and his family saw that I could financially take care of him. When his mom said once to me that I needed to get a better paying job, instead of her unemployed, in-debt son, I knew what would happen. I ended it shortly afterwards after he gave me an ultimatum about certain relationships on my side of my family. When I broke up with him, he was literally shocked. Kept trying to win me back; I was done.
Good for you. That sounds awful!
Watching this interview...I feel seen.
I don't think my relationship with my husband can be repaired at this point. But he has finally started doing his share of the childcare duties. It only took asking for a divorce for him to start taking some responsibility. Too bad I only asked for a divorce after my romantic feelings died.
You should've went through with the divorce like the fact that he only decided to act right even though you've probably been "begging and nagging" communicating then nothing changed like clearly we can see who benefits from the marriage more and its clearly him. He just showed how he sees you and the relationship and if he was like that then switched up when you mentioned divorce then he'd definitely do it again!
I'm only half way into watching this interview and it is, by far, my most favorite one on TFD. I can absolutely relate to everything being discussed. My husband and I both work full time. I am a full time parent and he's part time. What bothers me the most about this situation is the expectation that I will just handle everything versus there being an honest conversation about what's fair.
Definitely agree with so much of this. Especially the mental work and prompting.
I do also wonder if women are being pushed into doing way more work, for example with Instagram pressure. Pressure that men don't take on for whatever reason. E.g. the birthday parties and cakes that seem to be getting more elaborate and fancy. The presents we feel we have to buy and then now wrap in a super fancy insta worthy wrapping. The need to dress the bed with cushions, that get removed every day etc. If more of us stopping trying to meet these ever increasing standard - that probably come from marketing stuff to us!? - then some of the work would be reduced/removed?
Absolutely not saying this is the whole picture at all and plenty of men arent changing the sheets let alone get to added "show cushions" but it worries me seeing from friends with kids how e.g. a cute homemade cake for birthday suddenly turned into a performance & artistic endeavor (or pressure to buy it) and the judging women who don't! Interested in thoughts?
This is such an unexpected crossover! I really enjoyed her breakdown of the maternity penalty and the specifics of unbalanced pay.
My mom was the breadwinner, homemaker, and the parent. She even homeschooled my siblings and me for the majority of our lives. She was a SAHM when we were little, but we were so poor at the time, my parents knew they had to bring in more money to set up the education they wanted for us. Our family finally began to thrive after mom started her own business. She was working all the time, but when it came to parenting and home duties, my dad never stepped up to take any responsibility off her plate. He even retired early at 55 because he believed his hard work has been done.
She passed in 2023 due to cancer and I truly think she worked herself to death. I dont know why i was surprised my dad didn't know the log ins to pay bills or access bank accounts. She was a Christian so she always told me that the "man should always be the head of the house" even if she was the only one working at the time. I wish I would have said that it isn't Christian-like for my dad to watch her drown. She wasn't superhuman. I miss you mom ♥️
The problem is not solved by women who write books about this topic. Never have I seen a MAN talk about this problem or let's say be open about this topic in general. Men have to talk about this, not we women. They have to step into the spotlight and talk about taking the half weight off of their wives shoulders. But this doesn't happen. So, unless we women are bringing up our sons like our daughters, this will not change.
"Letters to Shitty Husbands" is out there. He's pretty good in business.
Just took him a divorce to realise his wife was doing everything.
My husband and I don’t have kids, but I think we split tasks pretty evenly. He works with mostly women and when he mentioned he folded (my) laundry, they just asked why I didn’t do it. They know I work full time.
If you want to learn more about the physiological consequences of stress and oppression mentioned at the beginning, Gabor Maté’s work goes into depth. He says that in instances like the pandemic, women are shock absorbers for everyone else’s stress. Health concerns, especially autoimmune disorders, have disproportionately increased for women since we entered the workplace.
These issues are among the reasons I ended my marriage. I'm much happier now, less stressed, and have less to do without the 40-year-old toddler around making messes and "helping."
March 8th, 2019: Mexican women protested absenting from the country, they didn't work, did chores or took care of their kids. Men took the day as a holiday for them, next day when women came back to their regular activities they had to clean after the mess everyone else left (men) the day they absent, I honestly lost fate in society.
This brought back a memory from my childhood. My father would routinely go to the grocery store and come back with food that he alone would eat. He only bought food literally for himself. And he had a wife and three children.