EDWARD SAID: THE MYTH OF THE CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS | FREE FILMS FOR CONTEXT ON ISRAEL'S WAR ON GAZA
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ส.ค. 2024
- Legendary scholar-activist Edward Said delivers a powerful lecture dismantling the persistent ideological belief that the world is riven by a clash of civilizations between the civilized and enlightened U.S.-led West and the barbaric and backward-looking totalitarian forces of the Middle East and Far East. shop.mediaed.o.... shop.mediaed.o...
![Edward Said & Salman Rushdie [1986]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Sf0J9KlHank/mqdefault.jpg)
Where he said "I think jewish people also need to be involved because it is doing on their name" I was very pleased to remember that today Jewish voice for peace activists is chanting "Not in our name".
chanting good for nothing while thousand s of innocents are being murdered by Jewish bandits.
Those people who are "Jews in Name Only", who cannot read a word of Hebrew & whose real religion is PROGRESSIVISM.
Progressivism is the strong belief that there is absolutely NO God.
Their aim is to destroy the concept of
Gender
The family
The nation-state
Liberty
& everything else precious in human affairs.
@@berksonmezz
Half of all Js now live in Israel. Looking at J kids, three quarters live in Israel. The long term trend is obvious.
too bad the bigoted terrorists don't have counterparts in the Arab populations saying "not in our name"
Edward Said was truly a beautiful spirit, and a shining presence in the academic, socio-political world. He is missed by all who value honesty, fairness and justice. He has passed us the torch.
He was a moron. Almost everything he wrote has turned out to be garbage.
@@andrewgraham1418
Not Really.
Prof Said was an intellectual conman, an academic hustler & pedagogical crook. His Orientalist theory has been proved to be a sack of ecskrement whilst his other sophisticated ideas have imploded in on themselves. A devious charlatan, all dressed up with academic garb.
Sophistry and populism at their basest
"You cannot continue to victimize somebody else just because you yourself were victimized."
Yes, that is why Said's insane philospohy is unsound and intellectually corrupt. He is obviously an academic charlatan.
@@adidarmawan9966
Yes, Ghazzans need to stop their jennosidal activities against Issy.
Otherwise, they will find themselves in paradise, sleeping with all those vergins.
Yes, the fake fakestinians need to stop victimizing Gews to their Jihadii fantasies.
Right, so maybe stop victimizing Jews.
@@benb6527, you know full well the context referenced in that statement and why your reply is no justification for what happened in Palestine.
30 years later from this lecture "what a visionary!" can be comfortably said about Said.
Said was a brilliant intellectual conman, a talented academic liar & a dangerous speaker.
His far leftist, progressive nonsense & other warped BS convinced many European governments to import millions of pro-Jihadii migrants.
His Orientalist Theory was the height of confusion & absurdity.
An evil man
@@marwan3480
His visions have turned into horrible nightmares. Millions of peaceful North African and Middle Earstern Migrants have turned Paris, Brussels, London, Berlin, Rotterdam and Vienna into Jihadi-infested rectummholes.. France is
The only parts in his lecture that have come true are those in "clash of civilizations"… pretty far away from a lecture named "the myth of etc."
Not really. His entire thesis was essentially platonism. It has been proven totally inept as a system of thought.
@@beniluv3250100 percent. He was a moron.
What a great guy. And a great sense of humor. Said and chomsky have railed against western imperialism for years. We have so many good historians who have covered this stuff. I hope some of them find their way into our schools. I am 70 and I see 2 generations after mine who have no knowledge of history. We will keep making the same mistakes. As did Rome, as did Britain. There is very little intelligent life on this planet.
I disagree. There might be very few or no intelligent lives in your part of the world but 85% of the (rest of the) world - have many - but given very little space in the controlled legacy media in your part of the world. Your cocoon of an echo chamber is similar to that of Western imperialist colonial countries.
RIP Edward Said 🙏 😢 💔 Rest in Power!!! 🇵🇸🇵🇸✌✌
I want to add something about Samuel Huntington's history. Huntington during the Vietnam War era was in favor of ‘forced-draft urbanization." In other words, going into a peasant village destroying it and forcing the peasants to move close to the city and live behind barbed wire. To put it another way, Huntington was an ideologist for war crimes.
He wanted to create Gaza in Vietnam and here we are now.
summary: Edward Said's lecture "The Myth of the Clash of Civilizations" provides a comprehensive critique of Samuel P. Huntington's thesis, which suggests that future conflicts will be rooted in cultural and religious differences between distinct "civilizations." Said's arguments offer a nuanced perspective on this topic by addressing several key themes:
Origins and Premises of the Thesis
Huntington’s Argument:
- Huntington's thesis, initially presented in a 1993 article and later expanded into a book, posits that post-Cold War conflicts would be primarily cultural. He identifies major civilizations, such as Western, Islamic, and Confucian, and suggests that the friction between these groups will drive future conflicts.
Critique of Essentialism
Reductionist Approach
- Said argues that Huntington's approach is overly simplistic and reductionist. By categorizing diverse populations into monolithic civilizations, Huntington ignores the internal complexities, variations, and conflicts within these groups.
- For example, the Islamic world comprises various sects, ethnicities, and political factions, each with its own history and perspectives. Said points out that such essentialism fails to capture these internal dynamics.
Historical and Political Context
Overlooking History and Politics:
- Said stresses the importance of historical context and political motivations in understanding global conflicts. He contends that Huntington’s thesis overlooks these crucial elements, reducing conflicts to mere cultural differences.
- Said provides examples from history, such as the colonial experiences in the Middle East and the geopolitical interests of Western powers, to illustrate how political and economic factors often underpin conflicts attributed to cultural clashes.
Orientalism and Othering
4. **Reinforcement of Stereotypes:**
- Said links Huntington’s thesis to the concept of Orientalism, where the West views Eastern societies through a lens of superiority and exoticism. This perspective fosters a binary opposition that depicts the West as rational and the East as irrational and threatening.
- Said argues that such stereotypes are not only academically lazy but also politically dangerous, as they contribute to policies and attitudes that marginalize and demonize non-Western cultures.
### Media and Political Discourse
5. **Impact on Public Perception:**
- Said critiques how the "clash of civilizations" narrative has been embraced by media and political leaders, exacerbating xenophobia and cultural prejudice. This narrative simplifies complex geopolitical issues and legitimizes aggressive foreign policies under the guise of cultural defense.
- He discusses the portrayal of Islam in Western media, emphasizing how it often focuses on extremism and violence, reinforcing negative stereotypes and ignoring the diverse and peaceful aspects of Islamic cultures.
### Call for Dialogue and Understanding
6. **Promoting Inclusivity and Empathy:**
- Said advocates for moving beyond the divisive framework of a "clash" and towards a more inclusive and empathetic understanding of global cultures. He emphasizes the importance of recognizing shared humanity and interconnectedness.
- He calls for genuine dialogue and engagement, urging scholars, policymakers, and the public to adopt a more nuanced view of cultural interactions that respects differences while seeking common ground.
Conclusion
Edward Said’s "The Myth of the Clash of Civilizations" challenges the foundational assumptions of Huntington’s thesis, urging a reexamination of how global conflicts are framed and understood. By emphasizing historical context, political motivations, and the dangers of cultural essentialism, Said provides a more complex and accurate perspective on international relations. His critique highlights the need for empathy, dialogue, and a rejection of simplistic narratives that divide rather than unite humanity.
Thanks ChatGPT
@@jgoogle4256 your welcome human!
Muchas gracias por el resumen. Que pena que este video no se haya doblado al español.
Excellent 🤌
Thanks for the summary!
What a way to open for a lecture! with King Crimson.
What a profound speech. I wish more western scholars would speak the truth like Edward.
How come this video doesn't have a couple of millions of views more?
Older upload does.
High School arguments he wields.
Cuz people don’t have the attention span
@EdZeind you're not serious, are u?
@@thegreatconstable I'm being quite serious. He just launches complaints upon complaints. We all know the history. We don't need more muckraking against the bad guys nor more Manichaeanism. We need well outlined psychological and philosophical analysis so as to grok the antinomies, as it were, these folks are fighting for.
Great man who for ever missed !❤❤❤❤❤❤
17:08 So much worth reflecting on here. Real diversity thrives when we embrace our complex, multiple identities and recognize the interdependent systems of cooperation we need to develop. It shows how freedom for each of us depends on freedom for all of us.
long live our world and all peoples free from Western imperial domination
whos free?
@@shahreyar99 until Empire falls, no one
Isr@el isn't Western in any meaningful sense of the term. Ask any Jew, they will insist: "We are NOT white!" They get quite offended if you call them white or European. They are Semitic, and their philosophical, political, and ethical beliefs are quite distinct from European Christian ones, and actually share a lot more in common with Arab Muslim ideals and practices, in aggregate of course. They routinely sided with the Muslims against the Christians throughout history during the repeated Muslim incursions into southern Europe and when they set up Islamic kingdoms or vassal states there during the Middle Ages. Perhaps the difference between Europeans and Jews is best summed up in the difference between historical Western art and architecture versus the modern and postmodern art and architecture that Jews came up with in the 20th century. Europeans like the Parthenon or the Colosseum, while Jews like brutalist architecture such as Soviet apartment buildings, hence why every building in Isr@el looks that way, give or take a few. I've never seen a modern Isr@eli building that wasn't just a featureless tower block made of reinforced concrete, totally devoid of decorative elements. Western civilization is all about aesthetics, while Jewish civilization is not, hence why European soldiers wore extravagant uniforms, even at the cost of a loss in efficiency, while IDF soldiers wear diapers. All function, no focus on form. Honestly, the European mindset and the Jewish mindset couldn't be more different. Saying Isr@el is a part of the West is like saying Mexico is a Buddhist country, it just doesn't compute. There is a population of Jews that have lived in Kaifeng, China for like a millennium, and yet that doesn't mean Jews are part of Chinese culture. They have a distinct cultural continuum across their many ethnic groups throughout Isr@el and the diaspora, it isn't just some offshoot of Western civilization. Most of the Jews of Isr@el aren't even descendants of Zi0nist settlers but rather the Mizrahim, an ethnic group of Jews that were already living in the Levant when the modern state was founded.
And of course we should be under Eastern imperial domination.
@@mobilegamereviewer.1936 i hope we arent under any imperial domination. empires are inherently unfair.
thank you very much for what you say, i am with every single word you say, great compliments, great thanks, perfect words to what our world is now and yes to this brave new world, so well said, such a super talk you make, so many true words you say, tante gracie, greetings from vienna, austria, middleeurope, bravo bravissimo!
He passed away 21 years ago.
@@radwandabaja We honor his words. BDS.
I wasn't expecting to hear king crimson on the start of this. That's rad
Excellent points. If you enjoyed this talk by Said you'll love David Graeber's work, esp 'The Dawn of Everything.' The world really doesn't have to be a conflict driven reality.
Piketty too is a remarkable French researcher, who explains perfectly the western economic model based on exploitation.
I agree with you about David Graeber.
Is he single cause I'm SO in LOVE with him and this lecture!!❤ Wow!!!
he died in 2003. May his soul rest in peace. However he is still alive in his books and in the hearts of those who cherish his resistance. he was calling for reconciliation among all nations. btw, he is Palestinian
yes, you were right, Dr. Said
Bernard Lewis and Huntington writings are confessions, a classic case of projection
An amazing and powerful plea for peace between cultures and civilizations ❤
Opening track is a bop
Great lecture
R.I.P Edward Saeed 💐
Superb. Thank you. Best wishes.
I don't know if Huntington was right or not, but 30 years on, it appears one of the chief reasons for the clash of civilizations is a different view of the value and desirability of open societies. We see it within the United States and we see it between isolationists and globalists, and we see it, for example, in Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea where the societies are kept under strict control to prevent the ideas of open societies from overtaking the thinking of the people. The same is true between societies moving toward something like Sharia law, and societies that want more individual freedoms.
The best explanation I’ve heard on how and why the right-wing mentality, such as this expressed by Jordan Peterson, managed to bring the world towards to the neo fascist state of affairs of 2024.
Maybe fascist is Said ?
Hardly, matey@@bluestar6879
🐽
You are, of course, referring to the hyper-repressive, mysoginistic, raping, murdering, violently anti-gay, anti-freedom of religion, anti-democracy, anti-economic prosperity, draconian fascists known as Hamas, correct?
@@bluestar6879 look up the meaning of fascist
Nice to see nothing has changed ...
Thanks for sharing this
In 635 A.D., the Caliph Umar left Mecca to take control of Jerusalem and establish SHARIAH LAW. Upon finding out that all the Jews had been killed by the Christians (because they supported Persia over Rome), he ordered the Muslims to bring 80 jewish families to repopulate Jerusalem.
Hence Bibi and Sharon.
Love to see western women cover themselves, and men wear skirts
@@aleksandarteodorovic5349two Europeans that worshipped the golden calf while larping as semites.
@@KateBates22zabu
Nope. DNA analysis has proved the levantine origins of these people.
@@victormeidan1062where their DNA results?
Erudite Said!
Love the King Crimson ❤
To discuss this presentation should be part of the curriculum in any school in Europe and the USA. - In retrospective it is particularly interesting how Said is analyzing the so called peace process in Israel Palestine predicting the catastrophy that was to come.
it is ego that causes conflict
"Our" and "We" like if God was speaking about his children. One big Eurocentric
I would have advised our government to not ship our industry overseas to a growing country as a starter to remaining strong..
That's a good thought and your heart is in the right place, however you're missing the reason why industry moves overseas in the first place. Capitalism's tendency towards monopoly and the tendency of the rate of profit to fall, make it necessary for capital to export the means of production to foreign countries. In other words, the core functions of capitalism give rise to imperialism deterministically, so yes the US "should not have" offshored industry, but that process is inevitable in a system of market production in which profit is the prime mover.
@@hotcakesism100%!!!
@@hotcakesism Capitalism sucks. I'm well aware. Nobody forced this government to sign NAFTA.
@@hotcakesism
it really isnt as diffrent modes of crapitlsim exist and can funcion on diffrent levels of productiviity.free trade glboal crapitlism is part of strategy of interconnectedness wchi combine eocnomics with poltical influnces.too bad that china is startign to beat westenerrs in trheir game so they are angry.
@@hotcakesismbang on 👍
Said has a lot of accurate things to say. How did the idea that we should enrich history by looking at all the stories from the past, the idea that we should not marginalize those that are outside the cultural norm - in short the dream of multiculturalism from the '90's, turn into the culture wars and identity politics of the present?
We're taught, to see things as either/or, one against the other, one better than the other, rather than and/and, a togetherness with respect for differences.
That's what Said said.
The term "Judeo-Christian" began to be used in the early 19th century, but it gained more prominence and wider usage in the 20th century, very ancient....
The West or West Civilization seems like a nice way of saying something Supremacist 😂😂
Piers Morgan should watch it. Can someone send this video to him?
Why? Would it make a difference? 😏
Lol
He's stalled in the machismo of "supremacy."
It is clash between the premature modern commercial civilization of Islam and the late commercial civilization of Europe (a mix of aristocratic freedoms graduated to democracy and human rights and capitalist economics).
One of my friends still think most Afghans had no clear idea why the americans showed up. Who cares about war with the west when they're just the latest in a long line of weird foreigners.
Does anyone know when this brillant lecture was delivered? Also, does he have an essay on this which can be cited?
now I understand censoring such papers by west
No myth, there has and is clashes
Does anyone have the date for this video? Aside from his charming attire and mention of Arafat, it sounds like today.
It took Christianity of the Middle Ages 500 years to modernize - I wonder if Islam will be able to modernize in a shorter period
I think comparing bits of Europe to other bits of Europe runs into a wall when facing how uneven and janky it is.
Christianity didn’t develop in a vacuum
After Huntington’s truly great work of political science, ‘Political Order in Changing Societies’ of the late 1960s, something went very very wrong in his intellectual musings and his world view, culminating in his lamentable polemic (‘Clash of Civilisations’) that is here fairly, intelligently and elegantly critiqued by Edward Said. It is hard to understate the importance of what Said details in cultural analysis here and how mistaken and misguided is Huntington.
Its not a myth. We are seeing it being played out.
Moron, he's not doubting the aggression of the West. He's saying that the aggression doesn't have to be. The "clash" isn't/wasn't inevitable. The myth is that it is inevitable
5:55
That literally the divide-and-rule doctrine/technique of top-down imperialism.
Greed (financial and power) is the result of fear. Fear is the result of previous pain. The propaganda varies, but its purpose is to promote fear to gather followers. Nature causes fear with its periodic scarcities and disasters
The idea of "Civilizing ignorant people" actually started with ROME in Europe.
Greece considereed other barbaians and they influnced rome a lot.origin of word barbaian is greek language
Because if there's a clash of civilizations, it means that at least one of them...isn't
Am used to call as adibasi now they call banabasi prhistoric
And this is the context perhaps no excuse by all means but this is the context of The 7th October 2023.
M8 I ticked the like button because I agree with you that as different as people are we have to get on with each other otherwise it becomes chaos. But M8 I'd be lying if I didn't add that "religious idea's/beliefs will be the cause of the end of humanity.... .
I expected everything except for Starless in the intro!!
On an unrelated note, that plan on the side is completely unnecessary.
"The Clash of civilization" idea is very self centered and bound to a certain time. india is neither a muslim (mainly) or confusian country and not part of the equation.
It is some one eyed Christians eternal struggle against another monotheistic religion.
USA has 350 million inhabitants, China 1400 millions and India 1400 still growing. Other nations are growing very fast too. Japan, Germany, UK and smaller Eurpean nations like mine have to realise the focus will gradually shift towards the main population on Earth. We are far better of today than when Europe coonized many of these nations. It is not a bad thing with more than one region spearheading progress (once North America started doing it to it REALLY helped Europe and Japan/Korea helped both later on as examples)...
Edward said what?
So mmuch to pick from
Opening track sounds like king crimson??
Are there writings of his that go further into the idea that we should "denationalize education"?
Our leaders are all gone replaced by the facebook😊
Misogynist mass murder make more enslave , appropriate, land theft " economic theory"
Is not all human knowledge has to offer.
Adding environment + living things in it and planning for 100+/- lifespan per human birth and real numbers that are knowable to the only planet known to support abundant predictable life cycle and possibilities emerge .
Free speech or criticism against Mohamed is forbidden. You can’t develop on this idea
It's all political bogus by Huntington he is war monger ,clash nonsense.
The civilisations in Africa were not mentioned. Were they not worthy of mention, worse than the ME and Far East?
“worse”? why are non western cultures bad … ?
It was mentioned, please actually watch the video
Do you just do this for every conversation or speech you ever watch/listen to on here? "Why didn't he talk about how we wuz kangz? I need to be told about how we wuz kangz and flew around in pyramids n shiiiet!" The topic is the Isr@el-Palestine conflict, you know that right? I guess you didn't watch the video, just saw "civilizations" in the title and thought the guy would immediately begin by talking about how sub-Saharan Africans formed the first nation-states and cities and invented the wheel and electricity and all that nonsense, and then I guess you got angry when he started talking about Isr@el and Palestine and Isr@el's support from the West. He didn't bring up African civilization (presumably meaning sub-Saharan Africa since North Africa is basically Arabic culturally and ethnolinguistically speaking and I don't think you mean to refer to Islamic civilization since that definitely was mentioned) because it isn't relevant. Black people essentially aren't involved in this conflict. You should be thankful about that, it's one hell of a mess. Take the inferiority complex chip off your shoulder and you'll be a lot happier.
crash?
Everyone talks about Fukuyama and misses his point.
Fukuyama’s “point” is null now since he himself has said he was wrong about “the end of history”.
Trump,voila a good lesson for you and your cabals.
Bless him, but Saïd sadly DID NOT FULLY COMPREHEND ISLAM.
His contribution to intercultural, ethnological, anthropological, geopolitical, decolonisation studies is obviously beyond question.
Yet his own voluntarism for ecumenical harmony, communion is unfortunately not valid for every culture, sadly NOT FOR ISLAM.
- Saïd, a Christian, with a lifelong trauma of displacement, equated throughout his own background story with that of Muslim Palestinians.
- He never lived as an adult in a muslim society.
- He did not become an islamic academic.
- His valid denouncement of forcible, voluntarist European ethnocentrism, colonialism and genocide can unfortunately not account for political dynamics in muslim countries since 1945.
- I lived both in majority muslim countries, even those considered moderate as Indonesia, Malaysia, Lebanon and minority muslim countries like Germany, France and Spain.
- Saïd did not recognise the clear, distinct, overt, unequivocal religious-chauvinistic, supremacist, base, substract at the core of every muslim society, sect, interpretation I have come across.
- Mainstream, core, overwhelming majoritarian convictions of muslims around the globe concerning apostasy, multi-cultuturality, women entity (let alone potential and derived rights), cultural diversity, tolerance, social and cultural hierarchies, individual rights, human potential are simply incompatible with hitherto any other culture Islam has come in contact with. Or else, kindly name one.
- The present migration hysteria in Europe (2024) is largely a legitimate popular frustration, impotence, neurosis with one specific cultural sphere (Saïd is right it is not a uniform, fully enclosed entity) that openly, literally refuses to get integrated itself (as opposed to proselitising integration of others within)
- Therein the literal political axiology of both Al Q'uran and the Hadithes cannot be simply ignored, so explicit are the moral commandments for behaviour in any society. Islam as the superior culture, Islam as the fundamental creed, Islam as the all-overcoming ultimate "truth".
- Yes, all religions have intolerant, aggressive, hostile, somewhat ethnocentric literal commandments. Yet none has hitherto proven to command such imperative, existentially-staking force over their fidels to a point where a contemporary, rational interpretation of arcane scriptures is simply not presently possible (see the failure of scholars such as Mohanad Khorchide to gain any political or social accompaniment, not to mention the death fatwas dictating against his life for attempting to do so)
- I am not referring to radical, extreme Islam, Wahabite, Taimiyan, Salafist vertients. The latter were in a frank descendency by the beginning of the XX Century and artificially, instrumentally revived by explicit, official United States foreign policy: Ayatolahs vs Mosadegh, Mujaheedeen/Taliban vs USSR, Wahabbism in Saudia, etc. I refer to mainstream, especially Sunni, Islam in any society I have studied. Former "moderate" Islam societies are further islamising as we speak in Turkey, Indonesia, Egypt, Palestine.
We can all ideally, potentially create a catalogue of minimal political pre-requisites that may guide a political reform in Islam. But sadly, muslims, given their very religious ideology, cannot take any, any, minimal constructive, prospective ethology from the outside, from outsiders, from "infidels" or even Al-Kittab.
We have been waiting at the last least since 2001 for a rational, reason-compatible, cosmopolitan, human-rights-conform movement to mutually integrate with the rest of the world.
Where is it?
I appreciate your balanced and well written opinion based on personal experience .
I do not have the time in a YT comments section to write the rebuttal I would like to .
But I do not agree with some of your characterizations .
No Religion is a monolith .
There are a wide range of interpretations and practitioners in Islam just like Christianity or any other faith .
I find the problems to be with human misuse of ideology
( Catholic Church 800-1800?)
More than any one broad category of faith .
How integrated were you in all those Muslim societies you lived in ? Your conclusions sound like those of one observing from the outside , even if you witnessed those societies first hand .
Briefly I will mention my experience - I am married to a person of Arab Muslim background . I have spent a good bit of time in Algerian , Tunisian , and Moroccan households . I am a US citizen who was raised as a Christian .
I have lived in predominantly Algerian neighborhoods in France .
I do not agree with your characterization that Muslims in Europe stubbornly refuse to assimilate . They have also been excluded . Religion has become a cultural rallying point in response. It is misreading the situation to look at the divide and assume the ethnic minority refuses to assimilate .
Overall I appreciated the tone of your comment and I hope you share my hope that tolerance from all sides will prevail in the end so we can get on with being one human race and leave tribalism behind .
@@GardenerGeorge
Precisely this debate is not allowed even in Europe. I can only voice out arguments in anonymity. Last month a famous critic of political Islam was stabbed multiple times, a police officer died in Aachen, Germany. Multiple such cases occur regularly in France, Denmark, Sweden, Belgium. Likewise thousands of deemed infidels are executed daily in muslim countries.
1. My remarks are not based in anecdotal personal experiences. Data throughout Europe and in Muslim-majority countries is solid.
2. I mentioned my experience simply as anecdotal evidence that I experienced islam personally, not merely in theory or out of vulgar prejudices.
3. It is illogical and evidence confirms to assume all collectives behave in the same way. Yes, the overwhelming majority of religious ideologies have a perfect capacity of integration within cosmopolitan, democratic societies: Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Sikhism, Druzism, Zoroastrism, most Animist creeds (not all). But it is obvious, even statistically logical, that there would be creeds either with practices incompatible with the broad consensus of human rights or simply with an overt incompatibility with a pluralist society.
4. The Sun cult in Japan, or the churches of Jim Jones or David Koresh are only a couple of examples of religions, cults that were ostensibly beyond any capacity of acceptance of broader society.
5. Our tolerance consensuses and laws derive from the English liberal philosophers e.g. John Locke, John Stuart Mill, etc. mainly conceived for Catholic or Anglican exclusion of Protestants. The capacity for toleration with religions based on largely the same text needs to be considered.
6. I have been well integrated in all countries I have been to. But even if I had not, personal anecdotes should not be used as general rules. E.g. I lived in Germany and Switzerland, I am no huge fan of these societies (widespread racism, extreme work competitivity, lack of human warmth, etc.) but I cannot judge them based solely based on my impressions. But since you mention it, I have great friends who happen to be muslim from Indonesia, Morocco, Malaysia, Kurdistan, Syria, Yemen, Tunisia, Egypt, Azerbaijan, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan. I have been to the homes of many of these friends. I am thankful to life to have met these wonderful people.
7. The criticism of Islam (it's definitely not exclusive from me) has nothing to do with the validity of people who profess this religion. It is not a criticism of muslims but of Islam.
8. The sad experience is precisely that I encountered limits to our community given the creeds of some of this friends, not to speak of the ability to speak freely about anything or enjoy friendship from the opposite sex, or animals, all banned, or at least frowned-upon.
9. It was beyond sad to discover many of these friends were unwilling to debate basic tenets of their religion. Precisely their religion was off-limits for many of them.
10. I did not claim Islam is a monolith. I precisely mentioned societies where the religion is considered moderate (within Indonesia you can find places like that in Java, Jakarta, Surabaya, Kalimantan but extremists in Aceh, Yogjakarta).
11. I do not comment on religions out a whim or out of personal anecdotal experiences. I have studied religious sociology and religious political forms in my degrees (chosen voluntarily). I have read large parts of Al Q'uran and some Hadithes.
12. I also mentioned my humble preference for Shiite Islam (albeit not Ayatolah extremism) since not only it is mostly based on more reliable filological sources (Quran and not Hadithes) but also since it requires the intermediation of interprets, who are meant to be wise, well-read, so as to contextualise the texts. I hold great hopes for Iran after the present Theocracy. Having said so, most muslims worldwide, Sunnis, don't consider Shite proper muslims.
13. I do not comment on your personal experience. But I can totally relate to it. I have several European friends who are muslims, Moroccans in Spain, Turks and Arabs in Germany, etc.
14. Again it does not in any way object the personal human quality of individuals of the religion. It does however, also stem, from the chauvinistic attitudes and outlook many of them have of other cultures.
15. I agree totally with you that most (or all) the European societies did not welcome and try to integrate them as full humans (as opposed to guest labour), even though they were either from former European colonies or they were invited to work in Europe. It is beyond doubt that often the islamist radicalisation is but an answer from people who never felt at home, integrated, even if they by now possess the nominal citizenship.
15. I would agree with you to the extent that we cannot precisely know how well muslims would have integrated in Europe if the political pedagogy with them had been more fraternal, welcoming.
16. I don't even object to the fact they would be rationally critical to our Western societies. Our society deserves massive criticism, both given the material, economic inequalities, exclusion as well as some relativism tenets that factually decrease the mental well-being of people, mostly the youngest. Unfortunately these criticisms, shared by anti-capitalists like me, are not formulated in a form that would enable an ecumenical confluence with other people. It is rather, expressed, as a failure to comply with the "right" norms.
17. However, we do have the example of people from different cultures and even religions different from Islam: From the Catholic Italians, Spaniards, Portuguese, Greeks, to the African animists or Christians, to the Hindu Indians. They faced difficulties the first years, but by now all of them are largely well integrated with no social conflicts reported by social workers, judicial authorities or security forces, as is sadly the case for many muslims.
18. No religion is a monolith, nor are all religions equal. None of them have the same compatibility with a cosmopolitan, human-rights-based society.
19. I did not say Islam is incapable of one day reforming so as to conform or be compatible with other cultures. I mentioned the Shiite Green Revolution in Iran. What I say is that at least for the last quarter century no endogenous movement has emerged to promote such a harmonisation with reason more broadly.
@@alterglobo Thank you for your thoughtful response .
You are either a faster typist than I am or have more patience to be thorough in YT comments ( or both ).
I would enjoy continuing in conversation but am happy for this brief exchange .
I don’t have any detailed rebuttal to offer to what you wrote , but I would say this :
I have noticed in general emotions come before intellectual constructs when it comes to opinions / beliefs .
That is - most of the time we feel or intuit or are taught something , and then we spend years coloring in the lines with facts and logical arguments .
My personal underlying emotional / spiritual compass is pointed towards
tolerance , peaceful coexistence , inclusion .
Recently I watched ISS footage on TH-cam … slowly orbiting earth and filming the view from space .
What struck me as it passed over oceans , mountain ranges , deserts ,
Recognizable rivers and landforms …
No Borders .
Those are a ( recent ) human invention . I spend a lot of time memorizing my geography - where exactly is Romania or Myanmar or Bolivia …
Seeing the reality from Space / “God’s” view drove home how arbitrary an invention nation state borders are .
Ethnicity - Language - Religion are
Slightly more tangible but still fluid inventions .
One Hunan Race .
To me the sooner we move on from primitive tribal divisions , especially dividing into “ in groups “ that have decided their members are superior ,
The better .
I have stopped thinking Religion is an unnecessary division by its very existence , because I recognize it seems innate in us to have spiritual dimensions and a need for a larger framework to place our lives in .
But those Religions are going to need to be personal interior guides , not external societal structures that are intolerant and foment discord .
Thanks for the conversation .
@@GardenerGeorge
Beautiful and wise words.
I can subscribe all of them.
Thank you.
@@altergloboThe most intense conflict in Europe is the Ukraine war. Or the other various historical wars where bits of Europe beat the snot out of another but of Europe just around the bend.
Edward Said was an interesting man and also, according to this lecture - very very wrong.
How right was Sammuel Huntington
Don't know. Bits of Europe are shooting rocket artillery at other bits of Europe.
He didn't have a clue what was really going on in Bosnia.
When have civilizations NOT clashed? I would argue that such has always been the case (e g. the Greco-Persian Wars, or the Punic Wars between Rome and Carthage). Due to modern technology, every civilization on the planet is now in contact (and warfare has progressed to a terrifying degree), so now the clash is on another level...
The Persians seem to view the war as a frontier disturbance. They send a punitive expedition but don't seem that bent on more.
Clash of cultures wants to expand this way beyond nation-states.
Great speech. Remarkably insightful. BTW, wish he kept a wet sponge next to his papers, so that every time he had to turn the page he wouldn't have to moisten his finger on his lips....appears a bit disgusting, unrefined.
Edward said is at the antipodes of what is going on today. Why a vibrant culture should be abandon what makes itself to embrace globalism that is a highly abstract concept. Why can't Mr said accept that a culture that believe in its values want to live and preserve itself? It would be a better start. Then how a culture can develop in the acceptance and respect of the other without being threatened by the others?
He did say in this talk that he would also oppose the creation of a homogenized global monoculture. I do wonder what he would have thought of the rhetoric today in favor of geopolitical multipolarity
did you happen to watch the video in its entirety? If so, you may have noticed that he addressed a question quite similar to yours.
novbdy is making you abadon you cultural distictions except if by them you mean tradiotion to persecute or opresss some people,classes etc..in fact multiculturalism as in all cutlural identities derve to flourish and be presrved is global norm whcih is ironically opposed by proteectors of culture whcih see existence of other whcih are diffrent as threat.
He tells us not to paint civilizations in broad strokes, and then turns around and says "Zionism is bad"..What hypocrisy...😂
Thanks Professor
antsmyt!
I am sure you did not listen to the lecture you are commenting beneath , which is on the theme of tolerance as a virtue rather than ideologies of superiority .
But thanks for posting a comment anyway ,
It will help his message reach a wider audience
Due to YT algorithm .
Such an imaginary clash of civilization that we in Europe can’t even go outside past 5 pm. Ridiculous.
Yes. Finally, the voice of reality speaks in the midst of a bunch of fawning Islamist apologists.
Right now, the most intense conflict in our corner is the Ukraine war.
An intelligent conman. Read ‘The Third Choice’ by Mark Durie.
A less than intelligient comment.
This is not aged well. But what do you expect from Said.
I bet it aged really well.
It aged very well. Class of Civilization is dead except in the minds of the neocons.
I'm sure you are being sarcastic
why?
@@Edu-mj4zcafter 9:11, war in Bośnia, War in Ukraine, Assasination atempt on Shevchenko in 2005r, ongoing war between Saudis and Iran in Yemen, Taiwan crisis you could argue that the notion that we will all sing kumbaya is somewhat stupid.
Very left naive people here....look at real european history and Islam.....
The history of Europe is various Europeans having, long, bitter wars with other Europeans.
@@SusCalvin the world was little, powers were concentred
@@marcolucca6241 1940 was not some far off ancient time.
@@SusCalvincould I ask you if you are american?
@@marcolucca6241 No. The bitter, awful conflicts in Europe are historically with other parts of Europe. Right now the most intense conflict is the Ukraine war. Any sort of "x is like a war" feels cheap when the real war with mines and rocket artillery is here.
Bulshit 😢