6 Facts that prove WINGSPAN is better than EVERDELL - Confirmation Bias - (Quackalope Review)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 มิ.ย. 2024
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00:00:00 - Hello, Hello
00:00:57 - Overview
00:02:13 - Price
00:05:42 - Teaching
00:07:24 - Card Mechanics
00:12:01 - Education
00:12:40 - End Game
00:17:03 - WIngspan Won
00:18:50 - Lord of the Board
This video is not a sponsored video
#Wingspan #Everdell #FamilyGame - เกม
woah woah. were both wearing beanies? so we won right?
I think that’s how this work . . . Pretty confident.
My aunt works in bird rescue so I got her Wingspan for her birthday. Last time I was back home I taught them how to play. Both my aunt and mom are not gamers. My mom hates birds. By game end my mom was scanning every bird card with the Wingsong app. My aunt was happy to share her passion with her sister for one game. They both loved the game. Then my mom said "what other games did you bring?" She's never shown an interest in playing games with me before! So my aunt and I both got to share a passion with my mom. My mom also bought a copy of Quacks of Quedlinberg after I taught her that one too. Wingspan opens so many doors. I own a bird feeder and bird bath now too because of it!
I love this - this is exactly why!!!
Me and my wife prefer Everdell, but I respect everyone's decision whichever it may be.
Absolutely :) no one is wrong - just personal preference!
It's nice to tolerate confused people. You (and I) are honestly amazing, thanks to our superb taste in board games. /Tipofmyfedoratoyou
Okay but Alex gave Everdell 8 victory points over Wingspan and you only gave the later 6 victory points over the former, and we all know victory points are what board games are about.
Hahah xD oh no!! We didn’t communicate at all on these videos!
I get more gaming satisfaction from Everdell than Wingspan , but hey people like what they like :D
Absolutely :)
Coming from Alex's channel, I would love for you to do more of this series - along with Alex!
I have played Wingspan, but never Everdell, so I cannot compare - though I do like the fact that Wingspan has such a unique theme.
We recently received the Oceania expansion for Wingspan, and we love it. It adds a lot more complexity while not being adding a lot more difficulty in teaching or learning. The beginning of the game is much more satisfying because it allows everyone to easily gain food and cards without having to devote the entire first round to building up two birds in the wetlands or the forest to gain 2 food or 2 cards. Additionally, the final round has much more variety with actions because laying eggs isn't the obvious choice. Any action in the last round is possible with the addition of nectar due to it possibly giving you a boost in points if you manage to sneak ahead of your opponents in the amount of nectar you have in certain habitats. Overall, Wingspan is my gaming groups favourite game to play!
Wingspan is my favorite game of all time, period. I have yet to play Everdell but I have watched enough of it to recognize all your points in this video as rock solid. I'm so glad this video exists, Quack from South America!
Glad you enjoyed the video :) - Everdell is a lovely game if you get the chance to try it you should! :)
I'm definitely going to try it, it's on my list of games to own someday. Weirdly I prefer them in English and here I have only seen it in Spanish
I like Everdell over Wingspan and I've thought about this for a while. Alex's third point that cards in Wingspan don't feel memorable really resonated with me. I've owned Wingspan for a year at this point while I only played my first game of Everdell two weeks ago. However the only birds I remember from Wingspan are the ravens, Franklin's Gull, the Killdeer, and those birds that migrate (I don't even remember which ones). While these and some other cards may be good, they're often buried in a sea of mediocre cards that I generally don't care for enough to remember the bird that's on the card. On the other hand I've only played Everdell 5 times so far and I can remember the effects of every card in the base game.
To make a simple comparison using the Mine in Everdell, which gives a pebble on production, against some bird that gives a berry. Whilst both cards have simple effects - giving a single resource on activation, the ramifications are vastly different. Pebble in Everdell is used in most constructions, yet its only guaranteed source is a single exclusive basic action space, cementing itself as the one resource that you're either going to have to find a way to secure, or to skirt around through other building powers or to adjust your strategy to adapt to a game where you're simply not going to get enough of it. Whilst berries (or fish / mouse etc.) doesn't have a similar position in the gameplay of wingspan which makes those 'gain 1 berry' birds rather generic and forgettable in comparison. The fact that you can use just 2 of any resources as wild in Wingspan further diminishes the distinction between different resources and thus the birds that give these resources on activation. And I'm being generous when I'm using the 'gain 1 berry' power in my comparison when often a times you're getting a bird with a 'reset the birdfeeder, gain 1 berry if available' power instead, which just feels bad!
Randomness is another topic that was brought up in both videos but once again I have to give my vote to Alex here. Wingspan is more influenced by chance than Everdell. Having 8 cards in the meadow in Everdell which can be played directly to your city means that you effectively start the game with at least a 13-card hand! Which most of the time allows me to plan pretty far ahead. It is true that some cards will be taken by other players but replenishing the meadow almost amounts to drawing more cards! Whilst in Wingspan most of the time with only 2 or 3 cards in my starting hand I'd have to hope that I get good birds later on, which is an issue magnified by the fact that there are some outright bad (very very niche) birds in wingspan (e.g. That 3-cost, 6-point Wetland bird that says 'when activated player(s) with the least number of Wetland birds draw a card', okay so I was lying before about only remembering the aforementioned birds but... Me remembering the bad birds isn't a good thing about the game!). And I'm haven't even started on the randomness from the birdfeeder yet!
Seems quite ironic for Wingspan to have more randomness-resilient systems(2 foods as wild, soft synergies, opening hand semi-mulligan etc) only to feel more dictated by chance than Everdell(which has super specific hard synergies)
You and Alex are both very persuasive in your explanations. I have not played either game but i want to play Everdell after hearing you describe the two.
I enjoy both, I have played both many times, I will continue to play both - but I only own Everdell. Many times I have thought “should I add Wingspan to my collection?” and each time I didn’t feel a compelling reason to do so.
Your point on what Everdell is bad at has always been the opposite experience for me between these games.
Maybe it’s because I had played a lot of games like Lords of Waterdeep and Stone Age before trying these two games but I found Everdell easier to understand the engines than Wingspan (neither game is hard to learn).
One of the most frustrating things with Wingspan is too many games can be decided by the opening hand. Your original 5 cards don’t match end of round goals or bonus goals? Congrats you are starting at a major disadvantage to your competitors while you try to dig for matching cards (that others are also plucking from the board).
For me paths to victory and luck mitigation are my major reason to prefer Everdell. I like games that give you lots of options so you don’t get players that know they are out of contention half way through the game and have to go slog through the rest. Everdell’s cards stand on their own and can simultaneously fuel multiple endgame bonuses., so collecting a set (like Farm + Husband + Wife as your example) is a bonus not a requirement to win.
Your plans also don’t stall in Everdell like they can in Wingspan. Need a berry but the feeder has 4 dice and no berries? Need a tree burrowing bird but no visible cards match? Too bad, waste multiple actions digging, or just lay eggs (assuming you have somewhere to put them) and pray an opponent inadvertently helps you by uncovering what you need (and assuming its still available when your turn comes back around).
In Everdell between your hand and the meadow there is almost always a live play so if your current plan stalls you can start something else in the meantime.
I have seen most Wingspan games end with a 20-30 point difference between first and last, while with Everdell many times I have seen the player most (including themselves) expected to be last squeak out a win.
Finally I find Wingspan’s early game to be a little monotonous. Almost always my optimum opening for the first 7 birds are Forest > Field > Forest followed either by a 2nd Field or Wetland and finally a Wetland or 2nd Field so I have a 2:2:1 spread between them to fuel rounds 2-4.
I’m not saying Wingspan is bad. It’s a fun game, I enjoy it and it deserves the fanfare it gets. But given the choice between them I’ll choose Everdell most of the time
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Interesting points. I don't know that I agree with all of them, but they're interesting nonetheless. The one thing that stood out to me was that you weren't comparing these games Apples to Apples. You were looking at base game wingspan and all in everdell. Not that it's a big deal, but something that stood out to me.
One big point that I think you missed was length of play. Every time I played everdell, it's taking me two plus hours to play even at lower player count. Wingspan, with two players, can take me 30 to 45 minutes. That means I can get two or three quality game sessions in the amount of time it takes to play one game of everdell.
It would be awesome to have the link to the other video in the description!
My rebuttal. :)
1. Price doesn't determine why one game is better than the other. After all...what's your favorite game again?!?!?
2. Teaching doesn't determine why one game is better than the other. After all...what's your favorite game again?!?!?
3. You can swap the name Everdell with Wingspan for everything you said in the card mechanics section and I'd think it was more accurate.
4. Education - Fair point here. But don't underestimate the power of education Mr. Fellow Redwall and Root lover. Do you think Wingspan is better than root?
5. End Game - The end game of Everdell is exciting and rewarding. Your actions chain together and you finally meet the goals you've been stretching for. With me and my wife, finishing Wingspan, it was more of "I guess you won?", without any feeling of achievement for my decisions.
6. IMO Wingspan earned the awards it received. But # of awards don't determine *why* one game is better than the other. After all....what's your favorite game again?
I've played base Everdell many times and have yet to get bored. The expansions are awesome, but not needed. Also my EverTree has yet to have wear and tear problems from taking it down and building it up each time, so if you play Everdell so much that it *does* break down, well the extra money for the wooden tree is certainly worth it.
Love ya Jesse, but on this - you're wrong :)
Hahah :) I’m ok being wrong! In this case however / we might just have a difference of opinion!
@@Quackalope Yep! It's fun to engage. Opinions are just opinions :)
I tried to tell him. I really did.
Your arguments are very solid . . . Can I recruit you to help with the next video?
@@Quackalope Imma assume you're talking to Jan ;)
I'm not even sure why people compare the games. One is a game solely about birds, and one is a game about woodland creatures.
Please keep doing this series. What a great way to start my day! I honestly love both games and I am glad I own both. To me Everdell has more player interaction and takes more skill. Both videos make some good points and Quackalope made a more compelling argument.
Haha :) I’m glad you enjoyed them!!
I think Alex won the debate here. A ding against Wingspan he didn’t mention was those predator bird cards that are based totally on luck and randomness. They can be such a source of frustration when you activate them several times through the course of the game and they continuously fail to draw the size of bird you need to actually score points. The birds that stack resources on their card for end game scoring also fall into a similar category.
I’m such a Wingspan nerd that I bought a wooden insert, wooden bird house and wooden food components with upgraded wooded bird tokens on the way! (Wood you guess which habitat I fill up first?)
Fancy :) I need that!
@@Quackalope “need” I use that word often too. I don’t think that word means what I think it means!
You're surely a nerd and we are too! We picked up the Shipshape Gamer wooden birdhouse feeder with the acrylic woodpecker that taps when the dice are rolled. We're also looking at getting the wooden food tokens too.
I saw both videos and played both games and I have to say these arguments about wingspan feel weak. You and Alex are both my favorite TH-camrs and I respect the hell of your opinions. But Everdell won by far.
1. Understand the education, but for gamers, this is not a dealbreaker or counts as much I believe. It's something more, but not a good reason.
2. Wingspan I always feel kind of stuck in the engine building and card getting luck. Everdell you may feel that way in the first game when you are learning. But, if you really want to play something light there is an amazing 2 deck variant for it.
3. Expansions. This does count. The expansions for everdell give the player much more options to score points and challenges. I understand your point about more meeples aren't more things to do necessarily, but adding the expansion there is no room for doubt. Wingspan expansions are just about more cards which is important, but not everything.
4. Honestly, both games take me the same amount of time to explain. Everdell you have to explain the concept I worker placement, the escalation, change of season, the 5 five types of cards, and ways to score. That's it. Maybe you feel a little bit lost in the beginning, but that's generally for every single game you play for the first time.
5. Price. You don't need everything deluxe for Everdell. And, you can have tons of fun with just a base game. So, the price range is about the same.
I can continue, but the videos already said a lot. I respect opinions and understand the love toward Wingspan, but at the end of the day, Everdell is just a much better and fun game.
I feel like Alex was kinder to Wingspan, than you were to Everdell.
I get the nature of these videos, but these two engine builders are both fantastic! Everdell does seem more of a gamer's game, and the worker placement is a super cool fun time part of the game.
I love how accessible Wingspan is, and I definitely love that we play it with my buddy's 9 year old daughter. I'm certain she wouldn't do as well with Everdell. Different games.
My copy of Everdell came up missing last June (it's a traumatic story). But, I pledged to back the new Kickstarter with all the things!
I haven't purchased any expansions for Wingspan... YET!
But, thank you for your videos, and your comparison of these two wonderful games. Definitely deserving of the top two rankings on the bgg family list.
For what it's worth, I may sometimes choose one of these games over the other depending on what mood I'm in. But, overall, I believe I lean towards Everdell.
I'm going to go sit under the Ever Tree now, and watch for some birds.
I’m Wingspan all the way. I first played it at a convention, and I was up and running on my first game. And it was so fun and easy and fast. It’s always one of the first games I think about if I’m to introduce people to boardgames. And SM has excellent production quality throughout all their games. I have most of their titles and only one didn’t stay because it was less interesting. They offer games that last 1h and are super easy to pick up without looking up rules before play - and this is a super important point, specially being adults with limited time outside work and other responsabilities.
It’s such a good get to the table game!
This was perfect timing for this comparison video. I’ve played wingspan 40 times this year and absolutely love the game! I was thinking about getting everdell real soon, but your points against it has made me change my mind! Thanks for saving me some money!
Some of the cons for Everdell felt like pros to me. Easy to play can be a good benefit, but depth is also a selling point. Not knowing who will win to me is a benefit of a good engine builder. It keeps everyone having a good time playing, and the "winner" is almost a formality.
Very good discussion! These are my two favorite games and I've taught both of them to multiple other couples. Neither game is overly complicated to learn, but Wingspan is by far easier to teach and learn. As a result of it being easier to learn, more couples have purchased Wingspan after playing it with me than have purchased Everdell after playing with me. So... +1 for Wingspan for it's ability to convert new players to buyers. :)
Your podcast is the best. I listened to 6 episodes today. Loved every minute.
In so glad your enjoying it!!
Love this series keep it up. I own and enjoy both games. I like the theme better in Everdell but overall I'm in the Wingspan camp due to gameplay.
We will be keeping it up!
We are a gaming family with 8, 10, 12, and 14 year olds playing. Wingspan is hands-down more approachable for kids in this age range. Our 8yo can play wingspan but not Everdell. We definitely love both games and certainly agree that they should both be highly-ranked family games. From our experience Wingspan is better for many of the reasons in this video.
That’s a very solid reason for it to be in the house! I think Everdell is more of the gamers game - but I love wingspan and it’s position in my collection!
My 6 and 8 year old grandkids LOVE Everdell and are very good at it. But they get so frustrated with the early restrictions of Wingspan (gain 1 food per turn) that they've never played the entire game. 😢
Man...I do not get why there is so much freaking hate for wingspan. It's been almost infuriating. I own both.
I prefer wingspan but just barely over everdell. Both are amazing games and have their own benefits and weaknesses.
I just hate how much hate their is for WS. WS got me and my wife into gaming...let people like what they like and stop giving people grief :(
It’s due to the amount of wide spread success it has had :) - people like to take down the popular thing! I think both games are great - so I just ignore the hate!
@@Quackalope I 100% agree and that is why I find it even more baffling. I find it difficult to deal with the haters in the BG Industry. We should be supportive of each other and recognize that even though you might not like WS, does not mean to tear it down.
Build eachother up and be supportive, don't hate and tear down.
Thank Jesse for this wonderful video and perspective.
We are focused on building the community :) - so welcome to the paddle I think you will like it here!
I don't think Wingspan receives that much hate. It is clearly loved by a big majority. I think the main reason you find people talking it down over Everdell is that Everdell is a more complex game and therefore appeals more to "gamers" if that makes any sense.
I think a big part of the magic of Wingspan is that it clearly has a wide appeal to non "gamers" and yet can be enjoyed by both.
However, when Jessie and Alex started this idea of one being better than the other and you are talking to a group mostly consisting of people that take this hobby a bit above averagely serious. This is the reaction that is probable to come. And yet, it is not universal. Everdell was not considered game of the year for many people, but Wingspan seems like it was. Even within the hobby industry. So I think you should take the discussion here with a grain of salt. Most people probably agree that both games are good and both games deserve the success that it has. It is mostly people having fun on the basis of semantics and pretending like subjectivity equals objectivity... Like calling opinions facts..* ahem* Jessie!.
I don’t really like games with quite a bit of luck but wingspan is so popular and I like the look and theme and thinking of a board game haul I’m getting Everdell I’m just wondering shall I get wingspan to?
So I bought immediately after playing it at a friend's because I loved it so much. Taught my game group and two of them immediately went out and bought it! So definitely a loved game.
Tbf, have never played Everdell, but I do love wingspan so much!
The birdfeeder is notoriously hard to assemble without damaging it. I was going to offer a third choice for the right family game, but these two really do it best. I could probably make a case for taluva or splendor but those would both be uphill battles.
This is a fair point :) - just on the wrong side of the conversation for my video!
We just bought Everdell for a great deal, and I haven't played Wingspan, but we played Everdell for the first time last night and to be honest, it was VERY easy to learn. I read through the rulebook once, and despite a couple missed rules, the game went really smoothly and we all three had very satisfying endings with successful strategies and such! So I can't speak to how it compares to Wingspan, but I will say Everdell was well streamlined and I have a feeling I can bring this to the table for alot of people 👍🏻
also, the husband waiting for the wife the whole game is painfully thematic 😢😢
Absolutely! It’s a very lovely game :)
I think the reason Jessie harped on this point is that Everdell is a game that looks very family friendly because of it's theme, but is much more complex than what many would expect. Also much more complex than Wingspan, so it seems relevant to the point he was making.
I personally find Everdell to get more and more complex with every play, and I am loving that aspect of it. However, as many others will also agree with, because of this emergent complexity the game also has this weird effect where every play seem to get longer instead of shorter.
Hope your times with it will be great though. As that emergent complexity is what I enjoy about it the most. And is why I would consider it in a different category to wingspan.
I dont think price should ever play in a comparison on which is "better", Education would also be a moot position in which plays better. The Endgame in wingspan is all egg spawning, your engine can rarely beat 3-4points a turn worth of just eggs alone.
More bang for your buck :) - but I understand that stance for sure!
I think the European Expansion helps with the end game egg situation
I like Wingspan, but it's too card dependent, and the bit on the last turn being an egg party is true. No one really wins by going the food route, so I'd argue it's not one of the paths of victory, especially when the crow cards exist.
Everdell scares me away with how many expansions it has.
Haha - the expansions make it better and better :) - it’s worth a try one day!
@@Quackalope I've been watching the videos you made with Alex and are pushing me to get it whenever they release a big box version.
MY 2020 Plays:
Wingspan: 13
Everdell: 4
I really enjoy both games, but you are correct, there is no argument as to which is easier to teach and get to the table. You were also dead-on with the strategy element for Everdell and the frustration that can follow certain cards never appearing in play or being taken out of play by another player. You don't experience that in Wingspan, which certainly makes it more friendly to new players and non-gamers.
i came into this wanting to talk shit but you made solid points about everdell (haven't played wingspan). respect.
though i disagree with the notion that you need to keep expanding everdell. pearlbrook sucks, but spirecrest is all you need. and i've heard wingspan has an "essential" expansion as well
Great Idea. You and Alex should do more of these. I have to say that you both make great points, and I love them both. But not getting the cards you need from the meadow in Everdell sucks. I can always seem to do something with a bird that is available to me in Wingspan. After all they do have many 2 player variants on BGG for Everdell. Why? Because of the meadow.
Yea, I think we will do more :) we both love the format - I just haven’t done enough of them! I totally agree with you!
So true.... it is irritating 😂
For me, I feel like Wingspan is too reliant on food. It feels like I auto lose when someone gets a bunch of birds in the forest row before I can, then I can't get as many cards out as they can because of bad luck.
That’s certainly a powerful strategy!
The new Oceania expansion for Wingspan introduces a new wild resource, nectar, which also includes new dice. This means you now are not super out of luck if you are in need of a single resource and your opponent snags it first. In fact, with the new expansion, I had never gotten so many birds played in a game and it kept me busy the last round, so no egg hoarding at the end.
Lol of course it relies heavily on food, it is the primary currency in the game. You may as well say Magic the Gathering relies too heavily on mana. Also don't forget that you can always use two of any food as a wild.
@@ClockworkWyrm there's heavily relying on main resources, and then there's being too dependent on drawing the right cards to make said resources even run well enough to begin with
Now this is what I'm talking about...I may not have even played Everdell, but I'm sure this is correct...haha
I think I've only once had to spam spawn eggs in wingspan at the end and that one was because I didn't get a good draw and couldn't get a good engine going for the strategy I'd picked.
Hahah xD I’m glad you enjoyed it!
I own both games and have played the base game of each 10+ times. I agree with your points about Wingspan being easier to teach, being more educational, and being more mainstream. I disagree with your points about cost (I own all Everdell expansions but only recommend 2 of them) and randomness determining the outcome. The feeling you describe about being disappointed that the cards hamstrung your choices happens to me in Wingspan far more often than in Everdell. Everdell offers more options to mitigate the randomness. You make a great point about the special events in Everdell being a problem since some games will never see the necessary card combinations show up. This isn't great design, and it gets a fix in the Bellfaire expansion with a new set of events (that I recommend swapping with the events from the base) that are relevant in every game. Both games are high quality, but I would rather play Everdell every time. Thanks for the point/counterpoint content!
Watch a few videos here and there and I did find the rules of Wingspan straightforwardly understandable over Everdell. In that regards I feel Wingspan is more family friendly when it comes to a first introduction to the table. But I gotta try Everdell as well to make the comparison by myself. And also because I'm curious.
I own both and enjoy both games. I actually think these games have many similarities I would consider close to equal. I had to upgrade both the tree and the birdhouse to wood to increase durability (also, neither game needs said components). They both have a huge deck of cards that make the game random every time. They both have goals to try to hit for bonuses. They both have great artwork. I’ve upgrade both games equally with deluxe components (check Meeple Source for Wingspan)! I also think Wingspan will close the price gap over time with 7 continents and big box they’ve announced.
Yes! They are very similar!
I was thinking about giving Everdell to my brother as a gift (he already has Wingspan and really likes it) - do you think they are too similar?
@@stinahagglund4770 Nope, I think if he enjoyed wingspan he will love Everdell :)
@@Quackalope thanks for the quick reply :) so many games to choose from!
I don’t think they are too similar. Both are solid games.
You convinced me with the card mechanics argument!
I really ought to get that Birdsong app...
Have a look and listen outside your home. Where ever you are it’ll be interesting. We have these giant wood pigeons that use our two story house as a lookout, and they crap everywhere...
Round the back are nesting blackbirds, that always feed on the lawn.
Occasionally at night I hear the Morepork and a bat flying by. I worry about the domestic cats.
A green frog literally landed at the front door in the storm last week, and I let it go in an artificial pond up the hill, where it would have washed down from. There are plenty of ducks and some geese up there. Also a hawk on the other side.
The seagulls have been coming inland a bit more.
First of all fellow Quacks members, go check out Lord of the board content, it's pretty cool and useful too!
Now, I never played Everdell so I can't compare these 2....BUT, Wingspan is special. It is the only game I own (and know of) that'll be able to keep bringing my heavy/strategy boardgame friends while ALSO convincing my non-gamer friends to play a game...that second group would usually never play anything other then stuff like "What do you Meme?". It acheives something special; welcoming and simple enough to bring new people in the hobby while still beeing hard to master to keep interested veteran gamers. Plus, the new expansion (Oceania) will help balancing the egg strategy briefly mentioned in this video (and probably focused in Alex's video).
Oh, and I could not care less about birds prior this game. Now I think they are pretty cool and made me invest in birdfeeders.
Woah you are way to nice :) also very thoughtful comment! i enjoyed it. I agree birds are so much more interesting to me too!
His stuff is quality! Birds are amazing!
I mean can Everdell really win if Lord of the Board is on this side? I think not
This is such a strong point!
The birds are done in colored pencil not paint...unless you specifically mean the painted bunting.
Yea, I noticed that mistake! :)
I like both and there are some things that Wingspan does better, but overall I think Everdell is a MUCH better, fun, complex and beautiful game. And it seems that most of te people that have played both like Everdell a bit better, so there must be a reason for that. The expansions aren't NECESSARY but if you get them, they add significant changes to the game that make it even better, they're totally worth it.
You missed Wingspan price tag. Everdell curenty at 260 VS. Wingspan at 120, but don't forget Wingspan will get at least 4 or 5 extra expansions after Oceania. So price will go up at the end.
Sure - we factored that in a bit - however we could have been more specific!
I can agree with this opinion...on 2 points. The rest...not so much.
1. It's easier to teach (only true of non-board gamers)
2. It's more accessible to everyone because of the "based in reality" theme.
Game theme is based on reality, not fiction...that doesn't necessarily make it a better theme, though, because preference for a theme is just that...a personal preference.
Wingspan...angers me for one major reason.
Scoring in both of these games are point salads (several ways to score points)...but, in Everdell, at any point in the game, I can look carefully at everyone's cards played & coins and event/special event obtained in order to either tell whose winning or if the scoring is close.
In Wingspan, it's impossible to do so due to the hidden goals, end of round scoring, and hidden "tucked cards".
Okay, I watched this. I've never played Wingspan! I'll need to play it someday. But my guess is that I'd still prefer Everdell! Nice to see Lord of the Board in this video!! 😊How many of your other games have educational value, Jesse? lol
Haha! Me and my wife will forever disagree. 😂 they are both great games though. Thanks for noticing me! ❤️
We need to okay!
I really like this review, but something I'd like to point out against is the idea that a fantasy narrative cannot be educational or enriching in a similar way to learning about factual information on birds. I think it's a bit reductive to make the point of "not educational" as creativity to me is as important or more important than encyclopedic knowledge, and a fantasy environment can definitely help kids get a sense of imagination (kinda hits close to home for me as an artist).
Neither are my type of game. Every time I play this kind of game I feel like I play a more complicated version of solitaire.
Haha - I can totally understand that! The point salad nature of them makes it feel that way for sure! I enjoy that end game addition - but it’s not for everyone!
Wingspan is also available on Steam so you have easy entry and relatively cheap teaching tool... counter to this on BGC.
Very good point :) - love the cross talk comments!
Love them both!! "Wingspan" is very much like solitaire engine building which is great to introduce newcomers who don't like cutthroat experiences. And "Everdell" is also engine building but with worker placement and far more player interaction, it can also be quite mean hehe so watch out xD.
I think their bgg ratings are both great, but one is clearly hitting the table more often due to its simplicity in gameplay (easy to teach), that's how "Splendor" became so popular too.
Now this doesn't make a game better than the other imo.
Again I love them both! :D
Yep! I am right there with you on this :)
I like everdell more. In wingspan you never cycle through the cards and the engine is very simple. You have just the option of three strategies. Get cards, get food or get eggs which is always the best strategy to win. There are so many cards with the same function and you never can get one card you really need. You have no power to get one special card to get your perfect engine.
Maybe so, I have enjoyed that simplicity!
We always cycle trough the deck in Wingspan at least once and there are other strategies than those three. However, the automa is way to easy to beat :(
@@WithoutVlogs How do you get through a deck of sound about more than 100 cards?
The new expansion for Wingspan adds ways to cycle the cards more frequently, at least early in the game.
We often build an engine with a lot of Card exchanging, picking and tucking and we have never scored below 100 points, so we cycle trough 100 cards rather quickly.
Gorgeous video and great breakdown :D For your wrong opinion ;)
Haha xD thanks for being hear darling
Hmmmm the king of flavour text prefers a game about birds hatching eggs....
I love birds and much as flavor xD
@@Quackalope I agree birds have great flavour , taste like chicken
I just watched this for the first time, and my first response was saying to myself, "NOW I'd like to see them do the same thing with the other game!"
I enjoy playing Everdell more than Wingspan, but damn Jesse brought up some really good points.
Haha - I’m glad you enjoy Everdell :)
I own Wingspan. I've only played one game against a human opponent and at least five against Automa so I get how it works. I taught the base game to someone two days ago and in our first game (blue side of the round tile), they beat me. I had more bird cards in play with a variety of abilities that made each of my habitats lean, efficient and rewarding but the point values of my opponent's bird cards worked out to *twice* what I had. You'd think that I'd be sore that someone could beat me at my own game on their first try but truth be told, I think that this is to the game's credit as a family game. A favorable luck of the draw element balances out the advantage that a more experienced player brings to the table in such a way that gives players of all ages a fighting chance without the older or more experienced player having to offer the patronizing "I'll go easy on you" declaration.
Copying my other comment on the other video but I have played and owned Wingspan for a while and it’s one of my favorite games ever but I did just dump an all in backing on Everdell for 199 which seems not bad for all you get. Haven’t hit the table with Oceania yet but I love the mechanics of it.
Also, I think it would be cool if both of you did your own 'Reacts' video toward the other's arguments. It seems like both you and Alex thought that your game's card mechanics and end game were better than the other game's. I would like to know what the other content creator thinks about the other's reasoning - and why it is wrong! :-)
Haven’t played Everdell , but I’m loving wingspan. Is it still worth buying both ?
Everdell is a great little game :) if you like wingspan I bet you will like Everdell!
I own both. Everdell with every expansion and deluxe components. Wingspan with the European expansion which makes the game much better. Both amongst the most played games this year.
Oh it’s one of those Vs things you guys are doing. I don’t social media, just watch or listen to your shows. You guys better do more, lol!
So I was just thinking what would counter Alex’s points, and was typing it up while @Lord of the board was introduced and made the exact same points!
Subscribing to you later dude!
Okay, after a heavy think, I’m swapping sides. I do love Everdell though. Ultimately, I think Wingspan is better for what it has done, currently doing and will do.
I was originally thinking this is like comparing Chess (Wingspan here) to draughts (Everdell) but it’s more like Nature documentaries to The Muppet Show. We kinda need to be informed and it’s getting rather urgent.
We call it climate change, but it’s more than that. These birds along with every other plant and animal face habitat destruction, dwindling resources and increased competition at an increasing and alarming rate.
For quite a few of these birds, it’s possibly going to be too late. I’d say gone like the Dodo, but also like the Giant Moa, Haast Eagle or Laughing Owl...
New Zealand has lost quite a few species of birds in the last century. And it makes me sad.
Awareness is what helps change. Go Wingspan! Fly, fly like Jonathan Seagull.
btw, the Whio is our beautiful and native blue duck. Highly endangered and facing extinction.
My biggest compaint with Everdell is the table space it demands if you add even 1 expansion. This feature makes it impossible to see what other players are up to. That being said, the base game in Everdell is sooooo good I don't feel I need any expansion...ever. But I backed the full pledge kickstarter, just in case! ☺ And yes, I own, play, and love Wingspan. But the final round of everyone just laying more eggs is super annoying and very anti-climactic.
Everdell looks and feels like a whole magical world right in front of you. i think its not about the scores and the win. Im happy even im not win. i like the world. I like te style. I choose everdell every time over wingspan.
Wingspan wouldn't have been as popular if it wasn't a Stonemaier game. That alone doubled it's popularity.
Plus Wingspan tricked me into thinking it came with Cadbury Mini Eggs. Those eggs are not edible!
I can see that argument but I don’t know - it helped for sure - but the game hit a sweet spot outside of just the pub.
I think the success and then subsequent critique of both Tapestry and Pendulum seems to both prove and disprove that point.
It is clear that Scythe in particular has made any game Stonemeier releases an automatic sales success. However, it seems Wingspan has had more of a staying power than both Tapestry and Pendulum. Probably due to the gateway effect the game has. Only time will truly tell though.
Alex sent me to tell you you should do more of these videos ... just saying
That’s going to be the plan!
Everdell better game, more room to be creative and ability to create a desired strategy vs what you were deal. Based on my young daughter's play of both of this, I think Wingspan is the better family game.
I hear that - but it also frustrates me more!
I love wingspan. I’ve always thought buying eggs in the last few turns was a bit annoying but you’re right, there’s a lot of things that come with buying the eggs. I’ve always loved everything else about the game. I think almost every reason people give for not liking it is linked to the fact that the game isn’t as easy as they expect it to be. It’s very difficult to get a good score I think, so when you do well you fell like you’ve achieved something. I think the beautiful theme makes some people think it’ll be easy. I also don’t think there’s as much bad luck as people think there is. There is only 5 pieces of food in the feeder so it gets refreshed often so you can just wait a turn then get what you need next time. You have 3 face up cards to choose from at all times as well. I don’t think there’s much luck at all. It’s just not easy to master. It’s brilliant
Not sure if this video is meant to be sarcastic but if it is, I gotta approve.
I played both, I feel that wingspan has more luck in the pull than everdell.
Everdell you are more effected by other players around you.
WHAT?! Are you suggesting that a game based on drawing cards and rolling dice has a lot of luck in it???? Seriously though part of the great thing about Wingspan is using what you're given to build an engine that mitigates the luck and propels you to victory.
I honestly feel like you and me have played very different games Jessie.
There is no combo in Everdell that requires more than 4 cards, and that is technically only 1 combo in the entire game. And while a farm, husband, wife combo is nice, it is far from the best scoring card slot you can get. The only combos that that are widespread is the critter and their home. Which at most save you a few berries, there is absolutely no need to wait for a single card in Everdell. The game is, arguably, too open. Which is where the complexity comes from.
I also don't agree that you have seen all the game has to offer after a couple of plays. To me, the joy of Everdell is how much the game grows with each play. With each play it's complexity seems to jump up by a lot. So much so that every time we play the game it gets longer. I now consider Everdell a 3 hour game for 2 players, with or without expansions. I can agree that I also had that feeling after a couple of plays, but that is because I did not entirely grasp the complexity of the game. I would never say that Everdell is a family game. It is conceivingly complex, almost to a fault. And it has honestly become a bit of a problem as it gets to the table less often.
With that in mind I also don't agree that the expansions are needed, perhaps with the exception of the legendary cards and the collector's edition cards, both part of the collectors base game and cheap purchases on the side. Having played it both with and without, I agree with James' assessment that the game is best played with 1 expansion at a time, and the core gameplay is the same regardless of which expansion you play, and as such I don't find the expansions must buy. To be fair, I did buy it all, because I wanted it, and I have played it with everything and I enjoyed it. But the game still sees more table without expansions than with. Again, because of the complexity of the game. I would argue that Everdell is more complex than root and even more conceiving in it's presentation.
The big argument, which also explains why Wingspan is so much more popular. Is that Wingspan is a entry level/gateway game. Everdell is what many would consider next level, and I would argue has the potential to be consider heavy in many ways. More so than other popular heavy games like Root or anything Alexander Pfister has made.
I also find it hard to believe that you don't like the pirate ship. Considering you always seem to be so endeared with chaotic aspects in games. That being said. I agree that the take that cards add little to the game, so little that it is often not worth playing them. I. e. I believe your time is better spent playing something else if you want to win. And there are so few take that cards in the game that they can easily be removed without any effect. They are also, with the exception of 1 minor one, not in the base game.
Anyways. These are different enough games that they can be loved by different people and the same people all the same. I would argue that Everdell perhaps has a bit of an identity crisis and therefore does not deserve to be considered a "family" game in anything, but theme. Wingspan however probably does, whether it deserves to be number 1 is another question, but surely it deserves to be up there. I am not sure how much the theme of wingspan does appeal to children though, I am sure it does to some. I just find the theme more a kin to reading an animal encyclopedia, and more appealing to people already invested in the tidbits of theme.
I was confused by his pirate ship comment because that card is in the Pearlbrook expansion. The only "take that" card in the base game is The Fool. Also, it sounds like he played with the Rugworts cards added in. Like you said, it sounds like he played a different game.
I own and have played both but I don't think I could qualify one as better than the other overall. There are definitely elements that each excel at. Wingspan does the engine builder better, more focused. It was easier to jump right into (we had the jumpstart pack). It's gorgeous but birds are not our thing so it actually loses points there. The Adorable creatures and meeples of Everdell are amazing. The collectors edition resources and the tree!! Man the table presence that Everdell has. Everdell's worker placement stomps on Wingspan's (yeah I know ;P ) Yeah, both have a place in my collection. I want a crunchy engine builder? Wingspan! I want to build a woodland village full of critters? Everdell. I want to have a frantic tense time and die laughing? Cthulhu Death May Die!
I think arguing against everdell by including expansions isn't really fair, the main points about card pool being too convoluted is a result of that (and don't get me started on the awful event wonders lol i always keep the og events) but from base game perspective the mechanics of the cards as well as the chaining of cards together can create some awesome internal function for an overall larger engine, and i find a lot of the time i have a couple different combinations, potentially with a missing card here or there and then i can change up the plan on the fly. The best type of card and ones they should have added way more of are ways to discard cards from the village towards the end, by chance in a few occasions I've done this and it makes the final round feel way more rewarding as u replace early resource gathering cards with more end game points related ones.
On the other hand wingspan is way more consistent but way less varied and the main handful of engine mechanics become very repetitive over a lot of plays (i myself haven't played the game that many times but I've watched a lot of playthroughs).
I also much prefer games where the core mechanics are easy to teach and then there are more internal mechanics to master as u play, with everdell i just explain to new players the placements of workers for resources, card costs and general abilities and then tell them to look out for combo pieces and pairings to get the most out of it (my main groups are quite used to analysing strategy and reading cards tho so that helps). To note i also got hold of Clank! Catacombs, the card combinations have a similar feel to everdell for anyone super interested, altho the main game is pretty different so give it a research first.
While wingspan's extensive rules are far easier to teach i think the depth in everdell has higher potential.
Final point for me is the price range, both games are about the same price here in uk, wingspan u can get for 50 to 70 and everdell 60 to 70, i think retail is equal but obvs scouring online u can usually find wingspan a bit cheaper, but not a significant difference.
Quick note the newest everdell expansion fixes the consistency issues of the cards so that gives a buff to our side altho as of this video that expansion wasn't out yet.
I will try and play more wingspan as I think the game has more potential for me that I've not yet discovered, but i can't really justify the price to own it for myself (50 quid is high end for me and even at that price point the game has gotta be repayable to a high degree)
Thanks for reading this far lol
Gameplay wise, I think Everdell is a bit a head of Wingspan. But Wingspan is faster to set up and requires less table space which comes in handy when our big gaming table is occupied by Gloomhaven or 7th Continent.
Here's the correct answer... They're both better than many other games and are both collection essentials. However neither of you guys focused on 1 critical difference; Wingspan is a solitare tableau/engine builder and Everdell is a tableu builder AND semi-competitive worker-placement game. They both do a similar thing, but that's only half the thing in Everdell. That makes it a more complex game. Does that make Wingspan better? Maybe, maybe not.
Is Wingspan easier to teach? Yes, but that's bc there's much less to do. So people new to the hobby should start with Wingspan then play Everdell.
You're right about that tree though. It sucks. Mine doesn't fall over so much but the edges are all frayed at the connections which makes it harder to put together every time
I have played neither. Having said that, as an outsider, I am much more drawn to Everdell than Wingspan in regard to both theme and art style. 3:30 I would also argue that (in a general sense), I'm willing to pay more for a better game--while acknowledging that I can't really say one is "better" than another without having played it. So for me, the price isn't necessarily a point to consider for an experience I'd rather have, based on research and appeal.
Accessibility is nice, but also for me not a determination for what is a "better" game.
Absolutely see your points ;)
They are arguably different enough anyways. Everdell is more complex than it seems. Wingspan might be the other way around. Both have cards and animal themes. Both are tableau builders, but Everdell's complexity has less to do with it's engine building aspect and more to do with turn efficiency. The way clever play effectively gives you more actions than your opponent is the big thing about how Everdell is played. However, taking that too far can be a loosing strategy. Which is where a lot of the complexity comes from.
@@theRabbitFly sure but i don't care about birds, specifically. There's a complete thematic disconnect for me
@@chaoscoversgames5848 Oh I agree. Theme is so important for the purchasing decision and while Everdell has a wonderfully nostalgic theme. Wingspan feels dry.
@@theRabbitFly haha certainly. Which is why my vote for appeal goes to everdell. I.e. if someone were going to gift me one or the other, hands down I'd rather I'd be everdell
Loved the series, it is just amazing seeing both sides of the discussion.
The downside is just that... I already didn't like Wingspan. And now I also don't want to buy Everdell HAHAHA
Also I note that part 1 is much better produced than part 2.
Haha xD
Came over from Alex's channel. I never played Everdell. Wingspan, I played about a dozen times (with a friends copy). Wingspan is a very well designed game with great component quality, but somehow every game feels samy and bland (no matter if I win or lose). At least the Europe Expansion (round scoring) made other strategies than eggs viable. In the base game it's egss, eggs, eggs, and eggs, and also eggs in the end-scoring. haven't played the Oceania-expansion, yet. Will have to see what that adds.
For Christmas I went with Alex and I ordered Everdell, even if it means I'll have to wait for the new printing.
Shout out to the dude sippin the Hill Farmstead!!!!!
:)
Hill Farmstead is amazing, I need to make a trip up there.
@@JacobPorterLadder So Soooo good. I am lucky to be able to get there a couple times a year
@@falciferlmf148 I'm in NJ, but can get some just across the border in NY pretty often. We are finally starting to get Lawson's, so I'm hoping we get more HF distro down here. I just need to do a long weekend in Vernont
@@JacobPorterLadder I'm in MA so its hella easier for me just to scoot up there for the day... on your way up to VT be sure to hit Treehouse and Trillium in MA
You really think evrerdell is more luck than wingspan? =D Love this comedy
Personally I think you have less control of getting meaningful cards / mechanisms :)
@@Quackalope The post office is my favourite card.
after too many BoardgameCo videos I can only follow your videos at 1,5 speed! sorry about it
XD sorry!
@@Quackalope no worries!
18:17 Knocks over tree, and yet it still doesn't fall apart. Argument invalidated.
Ahah - it’s not that it falls apart when knocked over - but the cardboard is low enough quality taking it up and down wears it out.
Wingspan is better. I think it's an easier teach overall. And I think it has a more satisfying engine, with more variety and how that engine can be produced. Everdale is fine, but after playing it three times, I felt no need to visit it again. Expansions might change that...
I’m down for this :)
I don't think Everdell really is an engine builder. It has some elements, sure. But the appeal in it's gameplay and it's potentially growing complexity comes from turn efficiency. In that way it does live more up to it's worker placement gene than it initially seems.
I also felt that Everdell was starting to lack a bit of variety after my second or third play. However I was mistaken. The game quickly changed for me from that point, and arguably, not in all good ways.
Everdell was a 40 minute game when I bought it. It never clocks in at less than 3 hours anymore. Even with just 2 players. The complexity just grows and grows with every play. And as it does so does my enjoyment of it, but as it does, so does the difficulty with which it gets to the table. So it's not all good. I love the game more with each play now, but it also seems longer and longer between each play.
@@theRabbitFly interesting, I might have to give it another three or four plays and see how I feel.
@@caseypeterson5827 Well if what I said appeals to you I think it's worth a shot. I mean we all experience this differently.
I seem to enjoy games where gameplay is tight, The openness of strategy in Everdell does not seem to lend itself to this, which is why I think the game is growing on me. As it is the turn efficiency puzzle I seem to really enjoy. Finding combos that can give you a couple of extra turns here, getting a good lead, but perhaps leaving you short on space for end game scoring, then trying to juke for cards with removal to justify it as end game is closing. Deciding when it is worth comboing into an extra turn and when it is not. I don't know. The puzzle seems to get more and more complex the more I understand of it.
I think it actually started with me trying to experiment more because I was getting a sense of always doing the same thing while playing after the first 3 games. Trying cards that didn't seem immediately "good". Which thinking about it makes me want to play it right now. As there are several cards that I have yet to discover the value of.
Truth be told, these 2 games are both tied for first for me. However, I feel like Alex did make a better overall argument for Everdell (albeit a few of his reasons were a little silly and almost seemed thrown in for comedic effect than really making his point). Both are awesome games!!!
Strange to see you go for the non narrative game
For sure :) if I was arguing the other side - I would have hit wingspan hard on the narrative! Alex got to do that side of the debate though!
Duck-only in the Wetlands, eh? 🦆
Only way to go :)
My nod goes to Wingspan. It has the reasonable price point. The base game has high replayability. In what other games can you say, “Acres and Acres of Tweety Birds!”. Sylvester the cat would be saying this while being carried off by a California Condor.
The price point of Everdell is too high for me. You can’t really enjoy the base game by itself. I am glad that I have friends that have Everdell though.
You can't enjoy the base game by itself? What do you think needs to be there for it to be complete?
I have both, love them. But worker placement is one of my fav mechanics, have so many great games based on it that Everdell seems a bit dull so it doesn’t get to the table as much as before. But Wingspan has something (idk what) that I still enjoy after so many plays and I always use it to introduce friends to the hobby.
It’s a great game to introduce others to :)
I do like wingspan and really want to add the game to my collection but no game will ever be better than Everdell to me. My partner and I played Everdell 10 times within the first two weeks of owning the game and within a couple of months we had backed the kickstarter with all expansions! #TeamEverdell (quack from england) 😊
Will gift my bird-watching girlfriend Wingspan this christmas. It is time! :-D
Oh boy...... The floodgates have been opened. Woof.
Time to play :)
I agree with you 100% that Wingspan is a stronger game than Everdell. However I think both of these games are lackluster. In my opinion, they lack the excitement of impactful engine that can changes the course of the game. Because of that, I don’t find these games have the depth I am looking for. The scores can be lopsided, if luck is not on your side.
Haha oh no xD I like them both a lot
I agree, but I also think that applies to most board games that are labeled engine builders. Very few games are real engine builders. They usually only have engine building elements within some other element.
Everdell is not really considered an engine builder though. I believe it is a tableau builder, while wingspan is more within what most people would consider engine building. I could be wrong, but I have at least personally found that label to be very lacking in most cases. There are some exceptions of course.
The point that the critters only exist in the boardgame is supposed to mean anything? Is that a negative point for scythe because that alternative Europe doesn’t really exist or a minus for mansions of madness because the monsters only exist in Lovecraft‘s universe? 😅
I do get the point that Wingspan won 15 awards, but then again rise of Augustus was nominated for Spiel des Jahres and that game‘s really not that good to put it nicely (quite frankly I personally think it‘s crap)
Strongly disagree on the price point. I got Everdell and 2 expansions for under $100 (not the collectors edition - its not needed). For the amount of game in each base box, I feel Everdell is a much better value than Wingspan.
Sidebar: I never use the tree. its annoying and only gets in the way.
We went off the Amazon price to keep it balanced - but I do hear you!
@@Quackalope that's fair. I certainly kept my eye out for deals on Everdell. That said, you make some good points here. I am still firmly on Team Alex, but both videos are great!
I personally think the collector's edition of the base game is worth it. Mileage may vary of course and both Pearlbrook and Spirecrest are beautiful, each with their own pros and cons. But I personally think the legendary cards and the extra extra cards are the best additions to the game, and they are included in the collector's edition.
Alex has 8 reasons. 8 > 6, that's just simple math. lol Quack!
Haha, we knew nothing about others video :) - I have a guest!
@@Quackalope True, the guest did help, plus you had me sold on card girth. haha
I've played Everdell once. I hate that stupid tree.