Conclusion: If you want to understand physics, go to a physicist (like Hoodbhoy). If you want to understand a religion and it's intellectual history, go to a scholar of who has expertise in that (like Asad Ahmed). Hoodbhoy is certainly not an authority on Islamic intellectual history.
Hoodboy have explained his theory on the basis of evolution of science which is based on it's root in the holy quran. Asad ahmad explained his theory on the basis of limitation of human brain. If you want to learn islamic intellectuality then you have to enrich your brain by creative thinking which was, is and shall be beyond of iqbal's "spirituality".
@@syednafiunnoor2600 evolution of science which is based on it's root in the holy quran what the (&(&* are you talking about?. Hoodboy is too dumb to have a theory. Asad has only explained on the basis of historical records and facts and not on the limitations of the human brain. You like Hoodboy have not read Iqbal or Ghazali and are just trying to act like you are some sort of intellectuals.
Eye opening lecture by Dr. Ahmad. Prof Hoodbhoy gave most examples from "layman" not the actual scholars. What the prophet explained was to teach the muslims of that time with limited knowledge (imagine explaining science 1500 years ago to laymen.) Just iamgine you explain birth of your daughter to your 4 years old son? In my tradition we say " we caught her from the nearby river".
haha ! so even people who became parents had mentality of 4yr olds ? Its rubbish mentality, stop accepting lies told by ur mullas that peopel were dumb 1500 yrs ago. Pyramids were created 1000s of years before Islam was born, Greeks , Indians and Chinese and other cultures had developed high level maths, astronomy, medicine, metallurgy , sea navigation etc much before Islam
abhi manyu First thing's first. Learn to make your sentences more intelligible. Maybe someone might actually be able to understand a word of what you're saying. A lot of these cowards wouldn't ever dare to come out and speak to the likes of REAL islamic theologians. So they would much rather speak amongst themselves. Also, isn't this the same Jaahil Hoodbhoy who said a tachyon is faster than the speed of light? Just not so, by a majority of physicists. Eye rolling, sniggering amongst yourselves, sophistry and sweet talk no longer works. We want answers to our questions. You can't debate us in logic so you jump to Science like it's somehow exclusive to atheist/agnostics 😂😂. Who on earth said anything about pre-islamic civilisations not being advanced or contributing to the world in which we live in today? Many people other than the Muslimeen have contributed. You seem to be void of 2 things. History and intelligence. By Allah, we will make the Book and the Sunnah penetrate the hearts of this entire United Kingdom. The irony here is the one who purports science and intelligence, is lacking skill in both science and is misunderstood about the nuances of language 😂😂 Allah give you Hidayah
@@abhimanyu2713The science that greeks, egyptians have teach us was actually based on intellectuality. Using intellect means searching knowledge by the analyzing power. If anyone analyze the creation of universe he must have accept the idea of one creator. If there would have been many gods and goddess according to hindu myth then the universe would have been the clashing point of all the powers. Most importantly it will be unacceptable to physics according to general relativity. So, come out from your imaginary hinduism and then try to understand science. Good luck!
Listening to Dr. Asad Q. Ahmed for the first time felt like a breath of fresh air. Gave all new perspective to my understanding. Unbiased approached to analysis of history, knowledge and world in general is necessary.
Always love coming back to this debate whenever I remember, I wish the pseudo-intellects of Pakistan who idolise Hoodbhoy and his philosophy like its golden grain could watch this and maybe also take a few classes on the philosophy of science. Alhamdulillah for Islam.
The question that most of the people ask that why do you seek help from science to prove islam? Science isn’t an object or a book written by atheists or west. It is the name of tecniques through which you prove or disprove thing rationally and logically. So its something related to your mind. If you see something in Islam if you try to question and then prove it through the techniques you have , then it means you are looking something more rationally and logically, So if there are some scientific claims in Quran so you can look at this through scientific lense or you can call it the modern techniques of finding facts. So there’s nothing wrong to judge religion through modern techniques and proving or disproving it .
No sir you are wrong. Science doesn't have the processes to prove or disprove the existence of God. Science studies and attempts to explain only the natural world while God, in most religions, is supernatural. National Academy of Science
Hoodbhoy's arguments are so repetitive that they are staler than a week-old bread. He is always going on about the 2005 Earthquake. What he fails to understand is that he explains how the earthquake happens he has no clue about what was the reason. No one is passing judgment whether it was a trial, a tribulation, or a punishment Allah knows best. But Hoodbhoy's arrogance knows no bounds as he pronounces that it is merely due to the shifting of tectonic plates. It is better to leave these people blundering about in their ignorance.
In 2008, during my MPhil in GCU, Lahore, a junior gave me the news that she had found explanation of Bermuda Triangle (my field was nanomagnetism). She said that it was the point from where spirits leave Earth to go to the Creator. Luckily I didn't bang my head against the wall.
@@BabarUhsmani okay you do that. But then don't bring science into qu'ran. It's got nothing to do with it. You just believe in it and think about killing all the non believers. Good luck.
@@sewaligoswami781 1.science and miracles are two different fields. And we believe on miracles claimed by prophets. . 2. Islam never command ttoo kill non believers civilians, it'sduty of the authority tto protect their wealth and rights.
@@BabarUhsmani oh c'mon seriously. Dude there's so many verses upon verses telling non believers to kill so that judgement day could come. And you if you guys keep religion and faith personal like every other religious people does then no-one have any problem. You just can't apply your miraculous faith on the physical world. That's it. Enjoy life and be happy and let live. Coz you live only once brother.
@@sewaligoswami781 مِنۡ أَجۡلِ ذَٰلِكَ كَتَبۡنَا عَلَىٰ بَنِيٓ إِسۡرَٰٓءِيلَ أَنَّهُۥ مَن قَتَلَ نَفۡسَۢا بِغَيۡرِ نَفۡسٍ أَوۡ فَسَادٖ فِي ٱلۡأَرۡضِ فَكَأَنَّمَا قَتَلَ ٱلنَّاسَ جَمِيعٗا وَمَنۡ أَحۡيَاهَا فَكَأَنَّمَآ أَحۡيَا ٱلنَّاسَ جَمِيعٗاۚ وَلَقَدۡ جَآءَتۡهُمۡ رُسُلُنَا بِٱلۡبَيِّنَٰتِ ثُمَّ إِنَّ كَثِيرٗا مِّنۡهُم بَعۡدَ ذَٰلِكَ فِي ٱلۡأَرۡضِ لَمُسۡرِفُونَ . इसी कारण हमने बनी इस्राईल पर लिख दिया कि जिसने भी किसी प्राणी की हत्या की, किसी प्राणी का ख़ून करने अथवा धरती में विद्रोह के बिना, तो समझो उसने पूरे मनुष्यों की हत्या कर दी और जिसने जीवित रखा एक प्राणी को, तो वास्तव में, उसने जीवित रखा सभी मनुष्यों को तथा उनके पास हमारे रसूल खुली निशानियाँ लाये, फिर भी उनमें से अधिकांश धरती में विद्रोह करने वाले हैं। . For this reason, We decreed for the children of Isrā’īl that whoever kills a person not in retaliation for a person killed, nor (as a punishment) for spreading disorder on the earth, is as if he has killed the whole of humankind, and whoever saves the life of a person is as if he has saved the life of the whole of humankind. Certainly, Our messengers have come to them with clear signs. Then, after all that, many of them are there to commit excesses on the earth. -Surah Al-Ma'idah, Ayah 32
Sir I'm very happy to see your vision. It gives me good understanding of sociological process in history on Indian subcontinent which is still going on here. Namste🙏
The both talked about different things. Hoodbhoy talked about islam and science in modern times and about the failure of developing a scientific temper. He briefly touched on why he thinks muslim science declined. Speaks about occasionalism.He said the curriculum on muslims didnt change with time. Second guy: Goes ham on muslim intellectual history. Says ghazali wrote his book against metaphysics. Doesnt address occasionalism. Doesnt address his attacks on philosophy as a whole. Goes on a long rant about old models. Irrelevant. Didnt address the broad scale of Islamic science after ghazali. Anecdotes basically. Then there's the dars e nizami. Well heres the syllabus from jamia banuria. Quite a few topics about Islam here. "The Dars-e-Nizami takes 8 years to complete. It consists of traditional disciplines like principles of Quranic exegesis, jurisprudence, Fiqh, hadith and its principles, Arabic grammar, literature, philosophy, mathematics, logic, geography, and the more modern disciplines like English and Science." Overall for an expert, it was not a slam dunk.
You did not have to write such a long comment just to say that you are a Hoodbhoy fanboy. The incompetence of Hoodbhoy was so apparent that it was painful to watch.
@@omarkhan3256 Obviously I disagree. I was expecting a takedown of hoodbhoy cause he seems ignorant of social sciences. But it didn't happen. So I think what he was saying was largely correct.
Unfortunately he couldn't do much more than bring out some of his own frustrations and conclusions - frustrations from events that took place in his life and conclusions from his own experiences and how he understood the historical events. His frustrations we cannot question, but, his conclusions are mostly wide of the mark. For example, it'd be very risky to say that it was because of Al-Ghazali Muslims round the world stopped taking interest in science. It's much more probable that they were many more reasons and it is something that happened over a period of time spanning several generations. Though he does talk about modern physics, QM, standard model, uncertainty principle, etc. his own language about things is too deterministic. While he seems to be on the right path saying religion must not be mixed with science, but, he cannot bring himself to see the futility of attempting to reconcile. He seems to end up preaching rationality over blind faith. There is no mention of the irrationality of QM. He gives the impression that science has all the answers and things are at peace with each other in science. The reality is even as we are 16+ years into the 21st century, we don't have all the answers. Instead of trying to make science reconcilable with religion or the vice versa, we have to find a way to practice and use the two in a way that we can benefit from both. Good luck.
Religion especially Islam is kind of time machine which struck most of its followers locked in 7th century. People who believe in religious scriptures are living in wrong century.
He is prof of phy,but he Don,t know the single verse of Quran. He did not give any verse frm Quran.hw he dare to talk about islam and Quran.first he should learn the Quran and then he wl b able to talk correctly
But you missing the point...he is not saying that science has all the answers...hes simply striving for answers and thats it..religion always claims to have the answer but no proofs.....childish answers
very impressive debate by both sides. Dr. Hoodboy raised logical questions but answered very strong and powerful logical response for young guy... respect for this young guy.... Thumbs up
young person is young and good at specious argumentation techniques ... he talks fast ... by that token fastest steno typist must be most right ... ability to confuse is not ability to argue correctly ... pleasure derived is short lived gains are of salesman making a quick sale ... after people think calmly they realize their mistakes
Hoodboy blamed layman muslim, a standard view regarding the orient(barbaric, good for nothing), instead of getting to a logical conclusion hoodboy prefers to be a slave to the destroyers of our civilization.
The story of when Professor Asad Q Ahmed destroyed Pervez Hoodbhoy's pseudo-historical tirade! Dr Asad Q Ahmed's talk will make you realize what a pygmy Dr Hoodbhoy is when it comes to matters pertaining to history of science in the Islamic world.
True but Dr. Hoodbhoy is still a force for good in the academic world as he is a voice of progressive ideology and he personally supports upliftment of science in the Muslim world. Unlike Dr. Ahmed (who is doing a great service himself though in reviving knowledge of history), Dr. Hoodbhoy's work is leading in its own small way to inspiring Muslims to attain heights in science as they once had attained in the medieval period.
Hoodbhoy is the epitome of intellectual dishonesty, no good has ever come from him, nor will, all he's doing is leading Muslims astray, he's a bloody Islamophobe
Wonderful Talk! Dr. Ahmed does actually know what he is talking about. I only suspect Dr. Hoodbhoy has been restricted by the kind of opposition he has had to endure in Pakistani institutions. He was certainly targeting much lower than his stature. But again, the clash of religion and science is basically more to be blamed on religious circles than scientists, who under overwhelming overpowering of modern developments (and science is only a small part of it, e.g. the ubiquitous electric bulb or marvelous developments we enjoy are more due to capitalism and industrialism than actual science), took science to try to defend their metaphysical statements without actually understanding either science or metaphysics. Alas, if only we had actually read Ghazali, in order to defend or oppose the fanaticism, things might go differently. And yes, I totally agree with Dr. Ahmed that the fundamental source of the problems the Muslim world is facing is somewhere else which Dr. Hoodhboy also mentioned.
@@MuhammadAhmed-lc1op Interesting. Yes I did. Though, it appears that this narrative is not prevailing just in (former) colonies. If it is politically motivated it certainly is global. Though, I guess, both religious and scientific circles have embraced it. I don't see many religious scientists of high calibre in both areas anymore. I may be ignorant.
in the regard to the question raised that: why earthquake happened in an area with innocent muslims majority? Hazrat Aisha R.A said (summary) that when earth quake comes it is punishment for non belivers and wrong doers but it is mercy of Allah on believers that if any good person dies in the earthquake he will be pardon of his sins.
@@abhishekagrahari1352 no there's no denying causality. It's just the alignment of physical and the meta physical, there're physical reasons of these things happening, and there's this coinciding of such things with evil deeds. The same event can be a punishment for some people, a warning for others, for others still a mercy. It's how you view it. It's not science that you can 'observe'. It's a perception formed on basis of faith, which has reasons other than such events for beleiving.
Best way to be totally honest is to say to yourself, "I will accept(believe) whatever the evidence points to, even if it goes against my childhood indoctrination.This is how I came out of my indoctrination. I said to myself I must accept reluctantly whatever the evidence points to as the nature of reality. , , , , ,
but science still needs to debunk religion because on ground of perfection of my religion versus your many violent conflict happened and look at rules of loot you do in religious wars and rapes that ensue and slavery done in its name ... surely these must be counteracted ... if a religion is right because your army has better weapons and your soldiers can be violent because of what religion preaches then such religion either needs to be suppressed by violent means or by logic and argument ... in other words specific advice needs to be derived from a secular ethical argument via paths and insights opened by science
what the hell gazali? Is there a name of Gazali in Kuran? Is he also Prophet?! No. He was also man as you. We must think with our brain when reading the Quran)
Prof Hod bai is expert and genius in Physics... He should talk only about science... He is blank about Quran and religion... I challenge him.even he can't read and translate a single verse of Quran..whatever he is talking about science and Islam and religion....
Alghazali never 'discouraged' or 'denigrated' causality at all. His method wasn't 'unscientific' either since he insisted on proofs. What he simply says is this, how are you (or we) sure that there are only single (visible or testable) causes for all events or phenomena? The fact that today we observe one thing (or one cause) concerning particular event or phenomena, doesn't mean in 100yrs when technology is more sophisticated we won't observe another cause for the same event or phenomena. So to conclude that what we observe today is future truth is not a proper approach.
Dr Parvez is not only man of science, before that he is a great humanist.I think he should leave Pakistan and go to India or UK,where he will able to uplift millions of Muslims all over the world who wants to come out of ignorance.
Sirs, why is science vs islam such a big issue/threat in pakistan ? It does not appear to be in S.Arab, OIC countries , judaism/jews,or Christianity/ western countries.
So, Islam can not deal with Metaphysics. If that is the case how come today's cutting edge neuroscience is proving the Hindu and Budhist metaphysics as scientific. So, Islam can not fathom Metaphysics. Useless.
You obviously seem to have been stuck in the 1900's science. You need to update yourself into the 21st century Science. I guess you are still stuck in the Newtoninan kind of science when the cutting edge science is in Quantum science age. Update your self , that might help you .
You obviously seem to have been stuck in the 1900's science. You need to update yourself into the 21st century Science. I guess you are still stuck in the Newtoninan kind of science when the cutting edge science is in Quantum science age. Update your self , that might help you .
Please read Encyclopedia Britannica. Arabs learned numbers and arithmetic from Indians. Encyclopedia Britannica refers to numbers as Hindu numerals. The Arab word for arithmetic is Ilm Hindsa.
@@mohammadibrahimmir8367 Lol, Abey converted madrassa chap, humse bheek kyu mangtai ho tum medical visa's ki? Tumharai flag pe moon hai aur humara flag moon pe hai. Hum aaj Mars Ko orbit kar rahe hai aur tum Kashmir ko. Tumhari aukat nahi hai India se muqabla karne ki.
konsa mars... tatti krne ki jaga nae tumare mulk mein... kuttey se bhi battar zindagi hai... beef khaane pe maar detey ho... tourist ko rape kartey... bloody animals.
Dr. Pareved Hoodbhoy, seems to be an atheist or to- be, is unaware of the originality of the Religion. Science has nothing to do with science, but all his lectures about an amalgamation of religion and science. All the detail is infelicitous delivered by Dr. Sahib. Evan a unlettered one can comprehend the void of such bogus examples. It is said a little knowledge is dangerous, so is the over-bulk indulgence of knowledge.
Asad explained humes problem of induction, I wish he had explained hume on miracle where he explained by we shouldn't trust revelation. On secondary causality: human mind doesn't work that way. We strive to understand that primary reasons. If it is assumed that science can reveal only secondary causality, human mind will inherently go towards understanding will of God which is known by revelation. There gazzali gives revelation presumption of truth as you noted.
however you try to excuse bad influence of religion in politics by citing difference in political structure of church and other religion. Preference of revelation give power in hand of interpreter of religion. This has always been true for all organised religions.
Well that's wot he has tried to explain citing Ghazali that there is no harm in making models even if they contradict with religious beliefs as long as they don't enter the sphere of metaphysics. Lemme explain in this way, hypothetically speaking, a religious muslim belief says when homosexuality starts spreading on a certain part of the world (any city, country etc) then Allah sends tremors and earthquakes to punish people for disobeying and committing sin. Now we all know that how earthquakes are caused and what are the physical reasons behind it as they occur on Jupiter and other planets too. But when u would try to prove that its not because of Allah's command then the modern scientific philosophy which requires something to be a scientific fact would contradict with itself because the empirical proof needed to prove something like a "divine command" is not available. Likewise LIFE coming into existence by itself because of chemical reactions is pretty much on the cards and can very well be a model of how we came into existence, in this case u r arguing evolution which could be acceptable (even though its still a hypothesis but a very persuasive one) as a model but then if u will try to take it as an argument to the next level and say since I have discovered and scientifically proven how life came into existence, this means I can use it as a proof by virtue of which I can declare there is no God. This is wot would take u into the metaphysics sphere and u will violate the principles of modern science which requires proof. Plus Ghazali also said as told by Dr. Ahmed that if something is established as a fact and is a proven scientific fact by using modern scientific methods but it contradicts the belief (previously a fact) which was based on a religious belief system of some sort then it should be rejected, which means the interpretation which was done of the religious scripture which lead to that certain false fact was faulty. I have tried to explain to the best of my knowledge I hope I succeeded and plz excuse me if i failed to explain. May Allah have mercy...
shuja ud din jawad thank you for the reply. we cant scientifically disprove god just like we cant prove that unicorns dont exist but cant models of how the universe works disprove certain claims that religious people make?
shuja ud din jawad well maybe the word "disprove" isn't right but all of the evident reality can point to the answer being something different to what is written in holy books and there is no reason to belive otherwise unless you have faith in a certain ideology.
shuja ud din jawad and there is no link from the actual physical event of the earthquake to the metaphysical explanation for it. for someone to claim that it was because of the divine creator has no reason to make that statement.
Dr. Pervaiz Hoodbhoy, has admitted science has limitation to understand the origin of universe, therefore he does not understand supernatural phenomena, if he can not understand something, that does not mean it does not exist. Therefore, he has limitation in his thinking. So his arguments against religion do hold much weight.
Just because supernatural has the possibility of existing doesn't mean I claim to be a prophet, write a book, and say hey it's from God. Do you understand that? Do you understand that having no proof of supernatural doesn't mean we should believe in santa Claus as well. Did your tiny brain grow a bit?
Some fundamental errors in hiudabuoy premises . He pitched mutazali vs ghazali- that’s not true at all. Secondly he equates rationality with mutazali that’s not true as well Very generalised and faulty thinking upon which his deductions are based.
At 28:00, why did Hoodboy arbitrarily stop his explanation at the sun? Where did the sun come from? Where did the laws of physics come from? Why are there laws of physics? The ultimate explanation of everything that began to exist is the eternal Creator of the universe : Allah (SwT)
Why do Muslim thought proponents presume that if you can talk faster or louder ,you become more convincing,or even more right?The truth has nothing to do with presentation,but the facts .
That what retarded people do im sure a lots of muslims are also intelligent but if you compare it in percentage muslims are far behind Christian jew and atheists
There is no answer from the young man for the question - why is this status now? What happened that has happened. But still no improvement in the mindset.
@@sanjeebmohanty616 You asked he didn't say why the status now. The lad answered, it happened due to political social economic stuff happening during colonialism. Point being , the status has roots in other factors other than Islam or it's scholars, and this is what he gave evidence for by quoting ghazali that he didn't denounce building scientific models or causation or scientific study/method. It happens to communities, not to religions. What we're trying to do is trace roots, which according to hoodbouy are in religious dogma and the other gentleman tried to prove otherwise.
@@SufyanElahi82 That is what I am asking even if there was so much encouragement to science why the situation is so miserable now?Colonialism started when? If it is only to community then why whole Islamic world is suffering to this? Or it is by giving some isolated cases the gentleman is ignoring the root cause?Is islam such an oppressed religion that it couldn't do any scientific progress in modern world?
CRITICIZING RELIGIOUS PEOPLE IS NOT THE SOLUTION .BUT SCIENTIFIC EDUCATION SHOULD BE COMPULSOERY IN MADRESSAS, SCHOOLS AND OTHER PLACES . IT IS IGNORANCE !ND ILLITERACY ABOUT SCIENCE AND PHILOSOPHY WHICH MAKES PEOPLE UNABLE TO UNDERSTAND MODERN THOUGHTS .AND EVEN RELIGION IN A CORRECT WAY .
+amrutvani2 Sad see that you are another idiotic Hindu who did not bother to actually listen to the debate. What Hoodbhoy says here also applies to Hinduism as he has stated many times.
I see most of the comments are from muslims crediting Dr. Ahmed.. and some critiquing on Dr. Pervaiz , but one has to understand that both of them are from two diverse fields, one is a Scientist and the other is a historian.. so it doesn't weigh properly to debate the issue. One should really question the Madrasa education paralleled with Secular education.. as to why the last 800-900 years saw no great inventions
Pervez Hoodbhoy was destroyed in another debate with Hamza Tzortzis in LUMS and utterly disgraced himself by exiting angrily and saying shut up to his opponent. Hoodbhoy may have awards and I somewhat agree with his ideas on the state of education in Pakistan but he has absolutely no idea about the Islamic viewpoint and is oozing with his disdain and open rejection of miracles and his agnostic views which have no rational backing.
+joydeep sengupta Sad see that you are another idiotic Hindu who did not bother to actually listen to the debate. What Hoodbhoy says here also applies to Hinduism as he has stated many times.-------------
Leature of you on big band theory I again quote that Allah made Universe in six days not as our earth orbit in 365 days around the Sun since we still couldn't completely the entire Universe length and breath therefore six days is not our earth orbitals orbits
More than a commentary on science or even on religion, he seems to be a gate-keeper/enforcer for the Pakistan upper class from having to deal with or be associated with commoners.
Agree with hoodboy religion should be limited to personal level then their is chance for science to grow. The fools who are denying that there is no clash btw science nd rligion shoul know when there will be Sharriya like in taliban era of afghanistan or the whabism of Sudia or sharriya in iran or ISSIS. These are religious people who are definatly against women euction and mny more things.
Asad Ahmed did not fundamentally address the problems raised by Pervez Hoodbhoy. I listened with care, and at best the conclusion I can come to is that there were isolated individual cases of astronomers not entirely subdued by the anti-rationalism of Ghazali. The broad sweep of Muslim thought, however has been against raising tough questions, especially if they run counter to Muhammad's revealations, including the problematic verses where the epileptic blockhead confidently sounded off on things like where the sun sets, how mountains arise, how embryos form, or how birds fly.
You didn't listen to anything, he answers that Al-Ghazali was not "anti-rationalist" he was simply against their mode of logical system (greek one) on intellectual grounds, the whole Ghazali-Averroes thing was a philosophical argument and even Averroes argued against Avicenna, this was not a new thing. The whole so called problem with Ghazali is birthed from idiocy and is answered around 50 minutes in or so. Lastly, the Sun Setting is a literal figure of speech, the verses including embryos are separate unrelated verses even according to the opinion held by Al-Tabari and Ibn Kathir. You sound like a mentally r3tarded idiot trying to act like a pseudo-intellectual, cease from trying to understand things which go beyond your tiny mental capability.
Do you know every modern historian rejects the claim of al ghazali being anti rationalist this claim was popularised by neil Tyson who isn't even a historian
That's because you're still watching the video with a bias. If you cared about the truth, you'd actually investigate Asad Ahmed's claim (read books, articles)
Accusing me of having a bias begs a question of you, how in the world do you read people's minds? Besides, even if there is some bias according to you, that does not absolve you from the duty of presenting a fact-based counter-- asking others to read books and articles is taking the easy escape from having to be specific.@@MuhammadAhmed-lc1op
Problem with Islam is that it mixes everything with its holy book, prophet and the god Allah. Hence common sense, rationality, discussions and the scientific temper etc are so inferior to religious faith which is so blind. Arrogant and ignorant Islamic doctrine of modern times is always logger heads with anything which requires rationalism. If at all they could keep the religion only for moral values and good values of life and then let others to co exist, then they can make progress Other religions have moved on with an ability to make progress because they could separate religious belief to moral values and then still have rationale mind. Hence they are able to contribute much more to modern science and tech. Islam is a very regressive in that sense
NO HINDU SCIENTISTS HMMM . I think the boson in higgs-boson is named after a hinu, but , never mind, i give mr hoodbhoy the benefit of doubt, after all pak rationalist should be given a loooooooooong reasonable leeway
Sorry Dr. Asad, your lecture is essentially about history and theory, despite excellent quotations. While Dr. Hoodbhoy is addressing present day issues in a practical way, which is more relevant to us middle-easterners. What happened to the seven centuries of lull in science and discoveries?
He has opinions on "present day issues" based on an extremely flawed understanding of Islamic Intellectual history and philosophy of science. Dr. Asad just exposed that understanding. Also, when it comes to providing solutions for present day problems, knowledge of history is crucial, something that Hoodbhoy seems to lack. This begs the question, why should his solutions be taken seriously?
@@MuhammadAhmed-lc1op Dr Hoodbhoy is brilliant. Islam is a relic of the past and must now be discarded. Let's drop these man-made superstitions like Islam. and move forward. Dr. Asad is a tool. He should be ignored.
How does science solve nihilism? The world of science as the second speaker said is for the five senses we adhere to. The world beyond these senses is where Quran is from. That’s also ghazalis point. Do not try to explain metaphysics with known physics laws that apply to our common life. Because laws of physics don’t apply at the deeper level of things I.e quantum level. But Allah is beyond even the quantum level, so trying to justify Islam with the narrow mind of our 5 senses makes no sense because your blocking a thing that isn’t dependent on your limited reasoning or senses. This is why Allah calls Muslims “believers of the unseen” because the belief comes from a logical assumption that a logical mind deduces from things such as, infallibility of Quran, the scientific parallels, geological descriptions that were impossible to know by Arabs or the fact that none of this can exist without a creator. Is all this coincidence or an accident?
@@parvkaurav7973 and lynchings and riots shouting Jai Shree ram. Raping and Pillage and tearing womb of a woman with trishul and impaling her foetus on trishul and chanting Jai Shree Ram
I respect Hoodboy's knowledge and work in Physics but what he presents about Islamic Scientific tradition is just a piece of crap. He provides anecdotes from folk stories which he listens on footpaths as Islamic view of science and somehow imagines that during is so called Golden age of Islam, people everywhere were rationalists. Neither were common people back then committed rationalists neither they are today in any part of world. It is only after scientific training in a particular field that they think scientifically in that field. He speaks crap about Islamic History, having read a few works of Orientalists, whose theories have been disregarded now completely. Anyone, who knows what academic study of History of Islamic Science is will see how brilliantly Asad Q Ahmed was representing things here because he knows his subject well and has read material in the original languages and has good training in it. Hoodboy, on the other hand takes for granted that he has a right to speak on subjects which he isn't qualified to speak about simply because he has studied Physics in MIT.
With reagard to french scientist Murice Bucillie you qouted him said that "all science is in Quran and bible is wrong acording to science." well you are misqouting he never said that All science is in Quran but he says that all facts about sceince presented in The Quran can be proved correct by science unlike bible which is debatable.
Can you prove to me that the sun rests in a muddy pool? Or that sperm comes from between backbone and rib like the Quran suggests? Take out the sentimental goggles man. The Quran is mythology. Can you prove Adam and Eve? Abraham? Noah and the flood or Jonah and the fish? Can you prove that the moon was split in two? Bring forth the facts and take your sentiment out. Just because you were raised to believe a thing it doesn't make it true. Just because in a madrasa you've been brainwashed from childhood doesn't mean you can't be an empiricist and seek to test the claims. If you played fair then you would be as sceptical of the Quran as you are of every other religion. However due to reinforced brainwashing and sentimental attachment you are not.
Embryology seems to be mentioned a lot by Muslims who claim scientific facts in the Quaran. The Quaran states skin and bones develop at the same time which of course they don't! There are a couple of bona fide scientific facts in the Quaran, these are held up as proof whereas the proven errors are ignored.
All civilizations have contributed to Science, to say only Muslims did science between 900-1300 AD is false. Most Muslim science during that period was translation n organization of Greek and Indian works. Many Indian books on mathematics, and astronomy were translated into Arabic , and then to European languages. There was hardly any original work done in this period. More info here 👇 en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_influence_on_Islamic_science en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surya_Siddhanta
Aghakhani hood bhoy aghakhani religion agha khan ke Barry Mai kya kehta hai Islam ke khilaf sazish kertay rehtay hain aghakhani religion agha khan hood bhoy ke khayal Mai science ke mutabiq hai kya
quoting quoting quoting his investigations which become evidences for his stance - so , simply making the point narrating the evidences that led him there.
His smiles and laughs are in disrespect of Religion, specially Islam. He think he knows every thing and think religion has nothing to do with Religion. He is using out context events discussions to make fun with Religion, and Islam. He is unaware about Theory of Relativity, Quantum theory are way far behind what Religion mentioned already way back in past. Now we as humans need to progress and find ways to find phenomenon of those events mentioned by Religion, Religion is not need to be proven by science, science has to advance at the level so it can show ok now we know how it was happened. I f we will try to prove Religion on the bases of science may succeed or we may not, because our scientific knowledge will improve with the time, and we may change our scientific theory, results, and conclusions as per level of scientific knowledge and advancement. Religion is from The God Almighty, and our Creator does not need to improve His competency, knowledge, or skills, He is absolute by all means, He is The Creator of all phenomenon. Now it is our job to explore. Dr. Hoodbhoy is trying to please his Non Muslim colleagues, audience, by showing his disbelieve in Religion, and Religious people.
Dr. Hoodbhoy remind you Quran Pak is not a Science book, it is a book of guidance, it has revealed few facts which were not known to human kind at the time of its revelation. So stop mocking Islam you have declared yourself as a liberal that is fine with but don't quote some illiterates and present them as scholars. It shows your reach to the kind of people who are as ignorance as you are. I just feel pity for your students.
Dr. Pervaiz Hoodbhoy was nothing but a presentation without credible references and quotes from Shoclarly resources instead he used quotations from some unkown students or ignorant mullahs not scholars. Therefore, I find his entire speel extremely unimpressive. It seems like he is seeking an easy way to be accepted in the Western Society, for some financial gains like many other so-called mediocre writers not even worth to mention their names and so-called scholars and have pursued by bashing Islam, Muslims and Pakistan.
I'm probably replying too late but look up what he has done. His educational initiatives at ptv, the blackhole, his publishing house which sells international fiction and non fiction urdu translated books at really accessible prices. You might not agree with his views but he certainly isn't a man who's trying to be accepted by the west. He has been doing what he thinks is best for his country while he could've lived an easy life teaching physics in any big university in the west.
Hoodbhoy never makes sense to me when he talks about Islam, politics or history. He is a physicist so he should refrain from these topics as he has no background knowledge. Can we take his word about the field of medicine just because he is a physicist? Never. Moreover, this debate did not make sense to me, beause the basic fields of the debaters are far apart. One of them has little knowledge of Islam and other has little knowledge of science. This debate is a waste of time.
Hoodbhoy has more knowledge of Islam than the younger one. You don't need a fucking degree to gain knowledge. Hoodbhoy is a voracious reader. He has knowledge of not only physics but also Islam and history. You learn what you are passionate about.
Legend has it that Hoodbhoy didn't comprehend anything Dr. Asad Ahmed had said based on his thorough reading of texts.
Thank you so much for the brilliant discussion. Special thanks to Dr. Asad for bringing a whole new perspective to a popular discourse.
Conclusion: If you want to understand physics, go to a physicist (like Hoodbhoy). If you want to understand a religion and it's intellectual history, go to a scholar of who has expertise in that (like Asad Ahmed).
Hoodbhoy is certainly not an authority on Islamic intellectual history.
But he don’t want to teach physic he just open his potty mouth against Islam people have to leave Islam accept to scince
Hoodboy have explained his theory on the basis of evolution of science which is based on it's root in the holy quran. Asad ahmad explained his theory on the basis of limitation of human brain. If you want to learn islamic intellectuality then you have to enrich your brain by creative thinking which was, is and shall be beyond of iqbal's "spirituality".
@@syednafiunnoor2600 evolution of science which is based on it's root in the holy quran what the (&(&* are you talking about?. Hoodboy is too dumb to have a theory. Asad has only explained on the basis of historical records and facts and not on the limitations of the human brain. You like Hoodboy have not read Iqbal or Ghazali and are just trying to act like you are some sort of intellectuals.
Hoodbhoy talked like a layman, got owned real bad.
He should stick with his narrow field, beyond which, whoever he talks it's just randi rona self loathing.
It's sad for such an educated man.
Eye opening lecture by Dr. Ahmad. Prof Hoodbhoy gave most examples from "layman" not the actual scholars. What the prophet explained was to teach the muslims of that time with limited knowledge (imagine explaining science 1500 years ago to laymen.) Just iamgine you explain birth of your daughter to your 4 years old son? In my tradition we say " we caught her from the nearby river".
haha ! so even people who became parents had mentality of 4yr olds ? Its rubbish mentality, stop accepting lies told by ur mullas that peopel were dumb 1500 yrs ago. Pyramids were created 1000s of years before Islam was born, Greeks , Indians and Chinese and other cultures had developed high level maths, astronomy, medicine, metallurgy , sea navigation etc much before Islam
abhi manyu First thing's first. Learn to make your sentences more intelligible. Maybe someone might actually be able to understand a word of what you're saying.
A lot of these cowards wouldn't ever dare to come out and speak to the likes of REAL islamic theologians. So they would much rather speak amongst themselves. Also, isn't this the same Jaahil Hoodbhoy who said a tachyon is faster than the speed of light? Just not so, by a majority of physicists. Eye rolling, sniggering amongst yourselves, sophistry and sweet talk no longer works. We want answers to our questions.
You can't debate us in logic so you jump to Science like it's somehow exclusive to atheist/agnostics 😂😂. Who on earth said anything about pre-islamic civilisations not being advanced or contributing to the world in which we live in today? Many people other than the Muslimeen have contributed. You seem to be void of 2 things. History and intelligence.
By Allah, we will make the Book and the Sunnah penetrate the hearts of this entire United Kingdom.
The irony here is the one who purports science and intelligence, is lacking skill in both science and is misunderstood about the nuances of language 😂😂
Allah give you Hidayah
@@abhimanyu2713The science that greeks, egyptians have teach us was actually based on intellectuality. Using intellect means searching knowledge by the analyzing power. If anyone analyze the creation of universe he must have accept the idea of one creator. If there would have been many gods and goddess according to hindu myth then the universe would have been the clashing point of all the powers. Most importantly it will be unacceptable to physics according to general relativity. So, come out from your imaginary hinduism and then try to understand science. Good luck!
Listening to Dr. Asad Q. Ahmed for the first time felt like a breath of fresh air. Gave all new perspective to my understanding. Unbiased approached to analysis of history, knowledge and world in general is necessary.
Always love coming back to this debate whenever I remember, I wish the pseudo-intellects of Pakistan who idolise Hoodbhoy and his philosophy like its golden grain could watch this and maybe also take a few classes on the philosophy of science. Alhamdulillah for Islam.
Dr Ahmad does a fantastic job in refuting Hoodhbhoy's garbage.
The question that most of the people ask that why do you seek help from science to prove islam?
Science isn’t an object or a book written by atheists or west. It is the name of tecniques through which you prove or disprove thing rationally and logically.
So its something related to your mind.
If you see something in Islam if you try to question and then prove it through the techniques you have , then it means you are looking something more rationally and logically,
So if there are some scientific claims in Quran so you can look at this through scientific lense or you can call it the modern techniques of finding facts.
So there’s nothing wrong to judge religion through modern techniques and proving or disproving it .
No sir you are wrong.
Science doesn't have the processes to prove or disprove the existence of God. Science studies and attempts to explain only the natural world while God, in most religions, is supernatural.
National Academy of Science
@@Fundamentalist_muslim1 God is supernatural just like fairies and Goblins are so no point in wasting time on it.
Hoodbhoy's arguments are so repetitive that they are staler than a week-old bread. He is always going on about the 2005 Earthquake. What he fails to understand is that he explains how the earthquake happens he has no clue about what was the reason. No one is passing judgment whether it was a trial, a tribulation, or a punishment Allah knows best. But Hoodbhoy's arrogance knows no bounds as he pronounces that it is merely due to the shifting of tectonic plates. It is better to leave these people blundering about in their ignorance.
In 2008, during my MPhil in GCU, Lahore, a junior gave me the news that she had found explanation of Bermuda Triangle (my field was nanomagnetism). She said that it was the point from where spirits leave Earth to go to the Creator. Luckily I didn't bang my head against the wall.
@Smart Khan yes we believe.
@@BabarUhsmani okay you do that. But then don't bring science into qu'ran. It's got nothing to do with it. You just believe in it and think about killing all the non believers. Good luck.
@@sewaligoswami781 1.science and miracles are two different fields. And we believe on miracles claimed by prophets.
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2. Islam never command ttoo kill non believers civilians, it'sduty of the authority tto protect their wealth and rights.
@@BabarUhsmani oh c'mon seriously. Dude there's so many verses upon verses telling non believers to kill so that judgement day could come. And you if you guys keep religion and faith personal like every other religious people does then no-one have any problem. You just can't apply your miraculous faith on the physical world. That's it. Enjoy life and be happy and let live. Coz you live only once brother.
@@sewaligoswami781 مِنۡ أَجۡلِ ذَٰلِكَ كَتَبۡنَا عَلَىٰ بَنِيٓ إِسۡرَٰٓءِيلَ أَنَّهُۥ مَن قَتَلَ نَفۡسَۢا بِغَيۡرِ نَفۡسٍ أَوۡ فَسَادٖ فِي ٱلۡأَرۡضِ فَكَأَنَّمَا قَتَلَ ٱلنَّاسَ جَمِيعٗا وَمَنۡ أَحۡيَاهَا فَكَأَنَّمَآ أَحۡيَا ٱلنَّاسَ جَمِيعٗاۚ وَلَقَدۡ جَآءَتۡهُمۡ رُسُلُنَا بِٱلۡبَيِّنَٰتِ ثُمَّ إِنَّ كَثِيرٗا مِّنۡهُم بَعۡدَ ذَٰلِكَ فِي ٱلۡأَرۡضِ لَمُسۡرِفُونَ
.
इसी कारण हमने बनी इस्राईल पर लिख दिया कि जिसने भी किसी प्राणी की हत्या की, किसी प्राणी का ख़ून करने अथवा धरती में विद्रोह के बिना, तो समझो उसने पूरे मनुष्यों की हत्या कर दी और जिसने जीवित रखा एक प्राणी को, तो वास्तव में, उसने जीवित रखा सभी मनुष्यों को तथा उनके पास हमारे रसूल खुली निशानियाँ लाये, फिर भी उनमें से अधिकांश धरती में विद्रोह करने वाले हैं।
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For this reason, We decreed for the children of Isrā’īl that whoever kills a person not in retaliation for a person killed, nor (as a punishment) for spreading disorder on the earth, is as if he has killed the whole of humankind, and whoever saves the life of a person is as if he has saved the life of the whole of humankind. Certainly, Our messengers have come to them with clear signs. Then, after all that, many of them are there to commit excesses on the earth.
-Surah Al-Ma'idah, Ayah 32
Sir I'm very happy to see your vision. It gives me good understanding of sociological process in history on Indian subcontinent which is still going on here. Namste🙏
The both talked about different things. Hoodbhoy talked about islam and science in modern times and about the failure of developing a scientific temper. He briefly touched on why he thinks muslim science declined. Speaks about occasionalism.He said the curriculum on muslims didnt change with time.
Second guy: Goes ham on muslim intellectual history. Says ghazali wrote his book against metaphysics. Doesnt address occasionalism. Doesnt address his attacks on philosophy as a whole. Goes on a long rant about old models. Irrelevant. Didnt address the broad scale of Islamic science after ghazali. Anecdotes basically. Then there's the dars e nizami. Well heres the syllabus from jamia banuria. Quite a few topics about Islam here. "The Dars-e-Nizami takes 8 years to complete. It consists of traditional disciplines like principles of Quranic exegesis, jurisprudence, Fiqh, hadith and its principles, Arabic grammar, literature, philosophy, mathematics, logic, geography, and the more modern disciplines like English and Science." Overall for an expert, it was not a slam dunk.
Cope more
Asad owned Hoodboy😂
@chaudhry6769 intellectual response I'm impressed.
You did not have to write such a long comment just to say that you are a Hoodbhoy fanboy. The incompetence of Hoodbhoy was so apparent that it was painful to watch.
@@omarkhan3256 Obviously I disagree. I was expecting a takedown of hoodbhoy cause he seems ignorant of social sciences. But it didn't happen. So I think what he was saying was largely correct.
The guy younger to hoodboy is farrrrr more logical. Hoodboy has resentment against religion.
Dr Assad may Allah give you and your parents all the best
Unfortunately he couldn't do much more than bring out some of his own frustrations and conclusions - frustrations from events that took place in his life and conclusions from his own experiences and how he understood the historical events. His frustrations we cannot question, but, his conclusions are mostly wide of the mark. For example, it'd be very risky to say that it was because of Al-Ghazali Muslims round the world stopped taking interest in science. It's much more probable that they were many more reasons and it is something that happened over a period of time spanning several generations. Though he does talk about modern physics, QM, standard model, uncertainty principle, etc. his own language about things is too deterministic. While he seems to be on the right path saying religion must not be mixed with science, but, he cannot bring himself to see the futility of attempting to reconcile. He seems to end up preaching rationality over blind faith. There is no mention of the irrationality of QM. He gives the impression that science has all the answers and things are at peace with each other in science. The reality is even as we are 16+ years into the 21st century, we don't have all the answers. Instead of trying to make science reconcilable with religion or the vice versa, we have to find a way to practice and use the two in a way that we can benefit from both. Good luck.
Religion especially Islam is kind of time machine which struck most of its followers locked in 7th century. People who believe in religious scriptures are living in wrong century.
He is prof of phy,but he Don,t know the single verse of Quran. He did not give any verse frm Quran.hw he dare to talk about islam and Quran.first he should learn the Quran and then he wl b able to talk correctly
@@ghazalimuhammad4669
Is it necessary to know Quran nd then talk about science ??
Now , dont say non-muslims cant speak about this...☺😊
@@optimusprime5199 well said sir thank you
But you missing the point...he is not saying that science has all the answers...hes simply striving for answers and thats it..religion always claims to have the answer but no proofs.....childish answers
very impressive debate by both sides. Dr. Hoodboy raised logical questions but answered very strong and powerful logical response for young guy... respect for this young guy.... Thumbs up
young person is young and good at specious argumentation techniques ... he talks fast ... by that token fastest steno typist must be most right ... ability to confuse is not ability to argue correctly ... pleasure derived is short lived gains are of salesman making a quick sale ... after people think calmly they realize their mistakes
Hoodboy blamed layman muslim, a standard view regarding the orient(barbaric, good for nothing), instead of getting to a logical conclusion hoodboy prefers to be a slave to the destroyers of our civilization.
The story of when Professor Asad Q Ahmed destroyed Pervez Hoodbhoy's pseudo-historical tirade! Dr Asad Q Ahmed's talk will make you realize what a pygmy Dr Hoodbhoy is when it comes to matters pertaining to history of science in the Islamic world.
True but Dr. Hoodbhoy is still a force for good in the academic world as he is a voice of progressive ideology and he personally supports upliftment of science in the Muslim world. Unlike Dr. Ahmed (who is doing a great service himself though in reviving knowledge of history), Dr. Hoodbhoy's work is leading in its own small way to inspiring Muslims to attain heights in science as they once had attained in the medieval period.
Hoodbhoy is the epitome of intellectual dishonesty, no good has ever come from him, nor will, all he's doing is leading Muslims astray, he's a bloody Islamophobe
Wonderful Talk! Dr. Ahmed does actually know what he is talking about.
I only suspect Dr. Hoodbhoy has been restricted by the kind of opposition he has had to endure in Pakistani institutions. He was certainly targeting much lower than his stature.
But again, the clash of religion and science is basically more to be blamed on religious circles than scientists, who under overwhelming overpowering of modern developments (and science is only a small part of it, e.g. the ubiquitous electric bulb or marvelous developments we enjoy are more due to capitalism and industrialism than actual science), took science to try to defend their metaphysical statements without actually understanding either science or metaphysics.
Alas, if only we had actually read Ghazali, in order to defend or oppose the fanaticism, things might go differently.
And yes, I totally agree with Dr. Ahmed that the fundamental source of the problems the Muslim world is facing is somewhere else which Dr. Hoodhboy also mentioned.
You missed the point. Colonialism was the direct or indirect cause that created and encouraged this divide between Islam and Science
@@MuhammadAhmed-lc1op Interesting. Yes I did. Though, it appears that this narrative is not prevailing just in (former) colonies. If it is politically motivated it certainly is global. Though, I guess, both religious and scientific circles have embraced it. I don't see many religious scientists of high calibre in both areas anymore. I may be ignorant.
in the regard to the question raised that: why earthquake happened in an area with innocent muslims majority?
Hazrat Aisha R.A said (summary) that when earth quake comes it is punishment for non belivers and wrong doers but it is mercy of Allah on believers that if any good person dies in the earthquake he will be pardon of his sins.
😅😅😅👆👆👆😅😅😅
Why earthquakes come in deep seas... many times without affecting a single Human???? Perhaps Coz the fishes are non believers. 🤣🤣😅
@@abhishekagrahari1352 no there's no denying causality. It's just the alignment of physical and the meta physical, there're physical reasons of these things happening, and there's this coinciding of such things with evil deeds. The same event can be a punishment for some people, a warning for others, for others still a mercy. It's how you view it. It's not science that you can 'observe'. It's a perception formed on basis of faith, which has reasons other than such events for beleiving.
Best way to be totally honest is to say to yourself, "I will accept(believe) whatever the evidence points to, even if it goes against my childhood indoctrination.This is how I came out of my indoctrination. I said to myself I must accept reluctantly whatever the evidence points to as the nature of reality. , , , , ,
but science still needs to debunk religion because on ground of perfection of my religion versus your many violent conflict happened and look at rules of loot you do in religious wars and rapes that ensue and slavery done in its name ... surely these must be counteracted ... if a religion is right because your army has better weapons and your soldiers can be violent because of what religion preaches then such religion either needs to be suppressed by violent means or by logic and argument ... in other words specific advice needs to be derived from a secular ethical argument via paths and insights opened by science
he is ignor of life and teaching of imam ghazali.he should read the books of this imam
what the hell gazali? Is there a name of Gazali in Kuran? Is he also Prophet?! No. He was also man as you. We must think with our brain when reading the Quran)
Prof Hod bai is expert and genius in Physics... He should talk only about science... He is blank about Quran and religion... I challenge him.even he can't read and translate a single verse of Quran..whatever he is talking about science and Islam and religion....
Hats off Dr. Asad Q. Ahmed
Alghazali never 'discouraged' or 'denigrated' causality at all. His method wasn't 'unscientific' either since he insisted on proofs. What he simply says is this, how are you (or we) sure that there are only single (visible or testable) causes for all events or phenomena? The fact that today we observe one thing (or one cause) concerning particular event or phenomena, doesn't mean in 100yrs when technology is more sophisticated we won't observe another cause for the same event or phenomena. So to conclude that what we observe today is future truth is not a proper approach.
But to think that if a arrow is coming at you but you can't act because you can't predict what's gonna happen next!! That's utter bullshit.
in darkness they will abide forever
Much better talk by the young Dr. Asad. Prof. Hoodbhoy has no insights into the problem except mocking the layman Muslims
Dr Parvez is not only man of science, before that he is a great humanist.I think he should leave Pakistan and go to India or UK,where he will able to uplift millions of Muslims all over the world who wants to come out of ignorance.
Totally agreed
Sirs, why is science vs islam such a big issue/threat in pakistan ?
It does not appear to be in S.Arab,
OIC countries , judaism/jews,or
Christianity/ western countries.
So, Islam can not deal with Metaphysics. If that is the case how come today's cutting edge neuroscience is proving the Hindu and Budhist metaphysics as scientific. So, Islam can not fathom Metaphysics. Useless.
You obviously seem to have been stuck in the 1900's science. You need to update yourself into the 21st century Science. I guess you are still stuck in the Newtoninan kind of science when the cutting edge science is in Quantum science age. Update your self , that might help you .
You obviously seem to have been stuck in the 1900's science. You need to update yourself into the 21st century Science. I guess you are still stuck in the Newtoninan kind of science when the cutting edge science is in Quantum science age. Update your self , that might help you .
His English is born from Urdu source to English. He thinks in Urdu then translate it into English in mind, which is quite clear ...
Not sure if he does that. But it is a very irrelevant comment and shouldn't matter a tiny bit.
numbers were invented by indians,zero being invented by famous indian mathematician Aryabhata
not numbers but decimal system .
Please read Encyclopedia Britannica. Arabs learned numbers and arithmetic from Indians. Encyclopedia Britannica refers to numbers as Hindu numerals. The Arab word for arithmetic is Ilm Hindsa.
is liye tum log zero they ho aur raho gey
😂
@@mohammadibrahimmir8367
Lol, Abey converted madrassa chap, humse bheek kyu mangtai ho tum medical visa's ki? Tumharai flag pe moon hai aur humara flag moon pe hai. Hum aaj Mars Ko orbit kar rahe hai aur tum Kashmir ko. Tumhari aukat nahi hai India se muqabla karne ki.
konsa mars... tatti krne ki jaga nae tumare mulk mein... kuttey se bhi battar zindagi hai... beef khaane pe maar detey ho... tourist ko rape kartey... bloody animals.
Patient is the fundamental tool
Dr. Pareved Hoodbhoy, seems to be an atheist or to- be, is unaware of the originality of the Religion. Science has nothing to do with science, but all his lectures about an amalgamation of religion and science. All the detail is infelicitous delivered by Dr. Sahib. Evan a unlettered one can comprehend the void of such bogus examples. It is said a little knowledge is dangerous, so is the over-bulk indulgence of knowledge.
Excellent talks by both the speakers
Where can we find the whole discussion?
Kindly upload. Whole lecture
Asad explained humes problem of induction, I wish he had explained hume on miracle where he explained by we shouldn't trust revelation.
On secondary causality: human mind doesn't work that way. We strive to understand that primary reasons. If it is assumed that science can reveal only secondary causality, human mind will inherently go towards understanding will of God which is known by revelation. There gazzali gives revelation presumption of truth as you noted.
however you try to excuse bad influence of religion in politics by citing difference in political structure of church and other religion. Preference of revelation give power in hand of interpreter of religion. This has always been true for all organised religions.
But what if models contradict metaphysics? Like for instance evolution contradicting creationism?
Well that's wot he has tried to explain citing Ghazali that there is no harm in making models even if they contradict with religious beliefs as long as they don't enter the sphere of metaphysics. Lemme explain in this way, hypothetically speaking, a religious muslim belief says when homosexuality starts spreading on a certain part of the world (any city, country etc) then Allah sends tremors and earthquakes to punish people for disobeying and committing sin. Now we all know that how earthquakes are caused and what are the physical reasons behind it as they occur on Jupiter and other planets too. But when u would try to prove that its not because of Allah's command then the modern scientific philosophy which requires something to be a scientific fact would contradict with itself because the empirical proof needed to prove something like a "divine command" is not available. Likewise LIFE coming into existence by itself because of chemical reactions is pretty much on the cards and can very well be a model of how we came into existence, in this case u r arguing evolution which could be acceptable (even though its still a hypothesis but a very persuasive one) as a model but then if u will try to take it as an argument to the next level and say since I have discovered and scientifically proven how life came into existence, this means I can use it as a proof by virtue of which I can declare there is no God. This is wot would take u into the metaphysics sphere and u will violate the principles of modern science which requires proof. Plus Ghazali also said as told by Dr. Ahmed that if something is established as a fact and is a proven scientific fact by using modern scientific methods but it contradicts the belief (previously a fact) which was based on a religious belief system of some sort then it should be rejected, which means the interpretation which was done of the religious scripture which lead to that certain false fact was faulty.
I have tried to explain to the best of my knowledge I hope I succeeded and plz excuse me if i failed to explain. May Allah have mercy...
shuja ud din jawad thank you for the reply. we cant scientifically disprove god just like we cant prove that unicorns dont exist but cant models of how the universe works disprove certain claims that religious people make?
shuja ud din jawad well maybe the word "disprove" isn't right but all of the evident reality can point to the answer being something different to what is written in holy books and there is no reason to belive otherwise unless you have faith in a certain ideology.
shuja ud din jawad so that metaphysical logic can exist but it describes a universe in which we dont live.
shuja ud din jawad and there is no link from the actual physical event of the earthquake to the metaphysical explanation for it. for someone to claim that it was because of the divine creator has no reason to make that statement.
Dr. Pervaiz Hoodbhoy, has admitted science has limitation to understand the origin
of universe, therefore he does not understand supernatural phenomena, if he can not understand something, that does not mean it does not exist. Therefore, he has
limitation in his thinking. So his arguments against religion do hold much weight.
Just because supernatural has the possibility of existing doesn't mean I claim to be a prophet, write a book, and say hey it's from God. Do you understand that? Do you understand that having no proof of supernatural doesn't mean we should believe in santa Claus as well. Did your tiny brain grow a bit?
Unlike the so called belivers, he does not claim to know all. Thats his honesty!
@@aradhyatyagi123 Neither do the believers lol
Some fundamental errors in hiudabuoy premises . He pitched mutazali vs ghazali- that’s not true at all. Secondly he equates rationality with mutazali that’s not true as well
Very generalised and faulty thinking upon which his deductions are based.
At 28:00, why did Hoodboy arbitrarily stop his explanation at the sun? Where did the sun come from? Where did the laws of physics come from? Why are there laws of physics?
The ultimate explanation of everything that began to exist is the eternal Creator of the universe : Allah (SwT)
why stop at Allah? where did Allah come from? Why are there laws of religion?
Why do Muslim thought proponents presume that if you can talk faster or louder ,you become more convincing,or even more right?The truth has nothing to do with presentation,but the facts .
+cjs maan Why did you NOT watch the debate?
That what retarded people do im sure a lots of muslims are also intelligent but if you compare it in percentage muslims are far behind Christian jew and atheists
if there was no standard to decide what to exist and what not to, then why not just anything?
There is no answer from the young man for the question - why is this status now? What happened that has happened. But still no improvement in the mindset.
he said, it has political / socio economic reasons. In the colonial era. Q& A missin from the video :/
@@SufyanElahi82 political and social economic problems happen to Islam only?not to any other religions?
@@sanjeebmohanty616 You asked he didn't say why the status now. The lad answered, it happened due to political social economic stuff happening during colonialism. Point being , the status has roots in other factors other than Islam or it's scholars, and this is what he gave evidence for by quoting ghazali that he didn't denounce building scientific models or causation or scientific study/method.
It happens to communities, not to religions. What we're trying to do is trace roots, which according to hoodbouy are in religious dogma and the other gentleman tried to prove otherwise.
@@SufyanElahi82 That is what I am asking even if there was so much encouragement to science why the situation is so miserable now?Colonialism started when? If it is only to community then why whole Islamic world is suffering to this? Or it is by giving some isolated cases the gentleman is ignoring the root cause?Is islam such an oppressed religion that it couldn't do any scientific progress in modern world?
CRITICIZING RELIGIOUS PEOPLE IS NOT THE SOLUTION .BUT SCIENTIFIC EDUCATION SHOULD BE COMPULSOERY IN MADRESSAS, SCHOOLS AND OTHER PLACES . IT IS IGNORANCE !ND ILLITERACY ABOUT SCIENCE AND PHILOSOPHY WHICH MAKES PEOPLE UNABLE TO UNDERSTAND MODERN THOUGHTS .AND EVEN RELIGION IN A CORRECT WAY .
very corageous thoughts and very rational too. They are aiming at human wellbeing hence thoughts are in tune with the very objective of religion.
Thumbs up for dr Hoodbhoy. I am impressed.
+amrutvani2
Sad see that you are another idiotic Hindu who did not bother to actually listen to the debate.
What Hoodbhoy says here also applies to Hinduism as he has stated many times.
Thumbs down
I did not know that one could be impressed by ignorance.
I see most of the comments are from muslims crediting Dr. Ahmed.. and some critiquing on Dr. Pervaiz , but one has to understand that both of them are from two diverse fields, one is a Scientist and the other is a historian.. so it doesn't weigh properly to debate the issue. One should really question the Madrasa education paralleled with Secular education.. as to why the last 800-900 years saw no great inventions
Pervez Hoodbhoy was destroyed in another debate with Hamza Tzortzis in LUMS and utterly disgraced himself by exiting angrily and saying shut up to his opponent. Hoodbhoy may have awards and I somewhat agree with his ideas on the state of education in Pakistan but he has absolutely no idea about the Islamic viewpoint and is oozing with his disdain and open rejection of miracles and his agnostic views which have no rational backing.
Actually hamza tzortzis called Dr pervez a muslim world hater towards the end and refused to apologise and was justifying it.
Recommended book plzzz.
For physics
There are many books for various fields. But if you are just starting out, try Halliday and resnick's physics for scientists and engineers.
David Griffith
Such a great person
Thank you
Very well said Dr Hoodbhoy...hope there are more like you in Pak
+joydeep sengupta
Sad see that you are another idiotic Hindu who did not bother to actually listen to the debate.
What Hoodbhoy says here also applies to Hinduism as he has stated many times.-------------
ACTUALLY ONLY A FEW PEOPLE LIKE HOODBHOEY IN PAK.
🤦
As Islam spread science disappeared, so we can say both are at different pole
Thank you
Must not lose temper if knowledge is against yours theory's
میں انگریزی زبان نہیں جانتا ۔ برائے مہربانی اسے اردو میں نشر کیا جائے.
Faizan shah g display picture farangi ki lagai hwi hy aur keh rahay hein ky Egalish nahi atai
I think radical Islam or orthodoxy has divorced science. Religion should not interfere with mankind's quest for exploration and discovery.
Leature of you on big band theory I again quote that Allah made Universe in six days not as our earth orbit in 365 days around the Sun since we still couldn't completely the entire Universe length and breath therefore six days is not our earth orbitals orbits
Was the Q&A recorded? If so is there a link?
This young boy is too generous to his religion and he miss the point thus
More than a commentary on science or even on religion, he seems to be a gate-keeper/enforcer for the Pakistan upper class from having to deal with or be associated with commoners.
Agree with hoodboy religion should be limited to personal level then their is chance for science to grow. The fools who are denying that there is no clash btw science nd rligion shoul know when there will be Sharriya like in taliban era of afghanistan or the whabism of Sudia or sharriya in iran or ISSIS. These are religious people who are definatly against women euction and mny more things.
Asad Ahmed did not fundamentally address the problems raised by Pervez Hoodbhoy. I listened with care, and at best the conclusion I can come to is that there were isolated individual cases of astronomers not entirely subdued by the anti-rationalism of Ghazali. The broad sweep of Muslim thought, however has been against raising tough questions, especially if they run counter to Muhammad's revealations, including the problematic verses where the epileptic blockhead confidently sounded off on things like where the sun sets, how mountains arise, how embryos form, or how birds fly.
You didn't listen to anything, he answers that Al-Ghazali was not "anti-rationalist" he was simply against their mode of logical system (greek one) on intellectual grounds, the whole Ghazali-Averroes thing was a philosophical argument and even Averroes argued against Avicenna, this was not a new thing. The whole so called problem with Ghazali is birthed from idiocy and is answered around 50 minutes in or so.
Lastly, the Sun Setting is a literal figure of speech, the verses including embryos are separate unrelated verses even according to the opinion held by Al-Tabari and Ibn Kathir.
You sound like a mentally r3tarded idiot trying to act like a pseudo-intellectual, cease from trying to understand things which go beyond your tiny mental capability.
Do you know every modern historian rejects the claim of al ghazali being anti rationalist this claim was popularised by neil Tyson who isn't even a historian
That's because you're still watching the video with a bias. If you cared about the truth, you'd actually investigate Asad Ahmed's claim (read books, articles)
@@MuhammadAhmed-lc1op this idiot is just repeating same old orientalist delusion and anti Islamic claims thinking he is being a rationalist lmfao
Accusing me of having a bias begs a question of you, how in the world do you read people's minds? Besides, even if there is some bias according to you, that does not absolve you from the duty of presenting a fact-based counter-- asking others to read books and articles is taking the easy escape from having to be specific.@@MuhammadAhmed-lc1op
Problem with Islam is that it mixes everything with its holy book, prophet and the god Allah. Hence common sense, rationality, discussions and the scientific temper etc are so inferior to religious faith which is so blind. Arrogant and ignorant Islamic doctrine of modern times is always logger heads with anything which requires rationalism.
If at all they could keep the religion only for moral values and good values of life and then let others to co exist, then they can make progress
Other religions have moved on with an ability to make progress because they could separate religious belief to moral values and then still have rationale mind. Hence they are able to contribute much more to modern science and tech.
Islam is a very regressive in that sense
Therefore Science came into being fourteen years ago or Greece Scientist four thousands years ago we knows
NO HINDU SCIENTISTS HMMM . I think the boson in higgs-boson is named after a hinu, but , never mind, i give mr hoodbhoy the benefit of doubt, after all pak rationalist should be given a loooooooooong reasonable leeway
Mr Yogi you are living in fools paradise. The hate against Pak is in Your DNA and you are not able to differentiate right or Wrong
I felt teary when hudbhai spoke about his neighbour and abusllam
Sorry Dr. Asad, your lecture is essentially about history and theory, despite excellent quotations. While Dr. Hoodbhoy is addressing present day issues in a practical way, which is more relevant to us middle-easterners. What happened to the seven centuries of lull in science and discoveries?
He has opinions on "present day issues" based on an extremely flawed understanding of Islamic Intellectual history and philosophy of science. Dr. Asad just exposed that understanding.
Also, when it comes to providing solutions for present day problems, knowledge of history is crucial, something that Hoodbhoy seems to lack. This begs the question, why should his solutions be taken seriously?
@@MuhammadAhmed-lc1op Dr Hoodbhoy is brilliant. Islam is a relic of the past and must now be discarded. Let's drop these man-made superstitions like Islam. and move forward.
Dr. Asad is a tool. He should be ignored.
47:27 save your time
Patient is must loosing temper bring illiteracy in minds blocks wisdom's
Koi iesa tariqa k me isy smjh squ Urdu my
Even he cant read the Quran
How does science solve nihilism? The world of science as the second speaker said is for the five senses we adhere to. The world beyond these senses is where Quran is from. That’s also ghazalis point. Do not try to explain metaphysics with known physics laws that apply to our common life. Because laws of physics don’t apply at the deeper level of things I.e quantum level. But Allah is beyond even the quantum level, so trying to justify Islam with the narrow mind of our 5 senses makes no sense because your blocking a thing that isn’t dependent on your limited reasoning or senses. This is why Allah calls Muslims “believers of the unseen” because the belief comes from a logical assumption that a logical mind deduces from things such as, infallibility of Quran, the scientific parallels, geological descriptions that were impossible to know by Arabs or the fact that none of this can exist without a creator. Is all this coincidence or an accident?
Dr Asad Is quran from god if it refers to the universe as geocentric?
It doesn't as he explained.
What is the Hind's concept about earthquake .....? Cow's horns.....? Funny
Is it true...
even if that concept not correct they not kill and loot someone wealth as you do in the name of Allah. blood sucker
@@parvkaurav7973 and lynchings and riots shouting Jai Shree ram. Raping and Pillage and tearing womb of a woman with trishul and impaling her foetus on trishul and chanting Jai Shree Ram
😂🤣
Completely theirs lies the difference between human being called Scientist
Excellent, thanks
Hoodbhoy is a secular, atheist .... Even he don't know the meaning of Religion.
He is Abu jhail nothing do in scince just criticise Islam
Watched all of it
I respect Hoodboy's knowledge and work in Physics but what he presents about Islamic Scientific tradition is just a piece of crap. He provides anecdotes from folk stories which he listens on footpaths as Islamic view of science and somehow imagines that during is so called Golden age of Islam, people everywhere were rationalists. Neither were common people back then committed rationalists neither they are today in any part of world. It is only after scientific training in a particular field that they think scientifically in that field.
He speaks crap about Islamic History, having read a few works of Orientalists, whose theories have been disregarded now completely.
Anyone, who knows what academic study of History of Islamic Science is will see how brilliantly Asad Q Ahmed was representing things here because he knows his subject well and has read material in the original languages and has good training in it.
Hoodboy, on the other hand takes for granted that he has a right to speak on subjects which he isn't qualified to speak about simply because he has studied Physics in MIT.
With reagard to french scientist Murice Bucillie you qouted him said that "all science is in Quran and bible is wrong acording to science." well you are misqouting he never said that All science is in Quran but he says that all facts about sceince presented in The Quran can be proved correct by science unlike bible which is debatable.
Can you prove to me that the sun rests in a muddy pool? Or that sperm comes from between backbone and rib like the Quran suggests? Take out the sentimental goggles man. The Quran is mythology. Can you prove Adam and Eve? Abraham? Noah and the flood or Jonah and the fish? Can you prove that the moon was split in two? Bring forth the facts and take your sentiment out. Just because you were raised to believe a thing it doesn't make it true. Just because in a madrasa you've been brainwashed from childhood doesn't mean you can't be an empiricist and seek to test the claims. If you played fair then you would be as sceptical of the Quran as you are of every other religion. However due to reinforced brainwashing and sentimental attachment you are not.
Embryology seems to be mentioned a lot by Muslims who claim scientific facts in the Quaran. The Quaran states skin and bones develop at the same time which of course they don't! There are a couple of bona fide scientific facts in the Quaran, these are held up as proof whereas the proven errors are ignored.
Dear sir can Science prove where did atoms molecule or energy originate.
@@haruspex1-50 Do u have studied the quran? if not, then u have no right to comment on quran?
Such a gentleman first time I am find he is in an angriman. It show his state of mind angree with reality of Islam.
Couldn't explored Universe completely it will take time
All civilizations have contributed to Science, to say only Muslims did science between 900-1300 AD is false. Most Muslim science during that period was translation n organization of Greek and Indian works. Many Indian books on mathematics, and astronomy were translated into Arabic , and then to European languages. There was hardly any original work done in this period. More info here 👇
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_influence_on_Islamic_science
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surya_Siddhanta
Last logic is Scientist couldn't discovered Universe
Aghakhani hood bhoy aghakhani religion agha khan ke Barry Mai kya kehta hai Islam ke khilaf sazish kertay rehtay hain aghakhani religion agha khan hood bhoy ke khayal Mai science ke mutabiq hai kya
In many years
wow wonderful debate by Dr. Asad..very genuine...and Hoodbhoy is very tense and looks like a faker..
Not Scientist with little knowledge wisdom's intellectual wiseness n
Genius thinker
dr.asad .... reading , reading , reading ....
quoting quoting quoting his investigations which become evidences for his stance - so , simply making the point narrating the evidences that led him there.
Required
His smiles and laughs are in disrespect of Religion, specially Islam. He think he knows every thing and think religion has nothing to do with Religion. He is using out context events discussions to make fun with Religion, and Islam. He is unaware about Theory of Relativity, Quantum theory are way far behind what Religion mentioned already way back in past. Now we as humans need to progress and find ways to find phenomenon of those events mentioned by Religion, Religion is not need to be proven by science, science has to advance at the level so it can show ok now we know how it was happened. I f we will try to prove Religion on the bases of science may succeed or we may not, because our scientific knowledge will improve with the time, and we may change our scientific theory, results, and conclusions as per level of scientific knowledge and advancement. Religion is from The God Almighty, and our Creator does not need to improve His competency, knowledge, or skills, He is absolute by all means, He is The Creator of all phenomenon. Now it is our job to explore. Dr. Hoodbhoy is trying to please his Non Muslim colleagues, audience, by showing his disbelieve in Religion, and Religious people.
Dr. Hoodbhoy remind you Quran Pak is not a Science book, it is a book of guidance,
it has revealed few facts which were not known to human kind at the time of its
revelation. So stop mocking Islam you have declared yourself as a liberal that is fine
with but don't quote some illiterates and present them as scholars. It shows your reach
to the kind of people who are as ignorance as you are. I just feel pity for your students.
How many peer reviewed scientific papers does Hoodbhoy have in his field?
I saw 18, but must be more.
This foreign sounding bearded guy needs to say less rather than more.
Dr. Pervaiz Hoodbhoy was nothing but a presentation without credible references and quotes from Shoclarly resources instead he used quotations from some unkown students or ignorant mullahs not scholars. Therefore, I find his entire speel extremely unimpressive.
It seems like he is seeking an easy way to be accepted in the Western Society, for some financial gains like many other so-called mediocre writers not even worth to mention their names and so-called scholars and have pursued by bashing Islam, Muslims and Pakistan.
I'm probably replying too late but look up what he has done. His educational initiatives at ptv, the blackhole, his publishing house which sells international fiction and non fiction urdu translated books at really accessible prices. You might not agree with his views but he certainly isn't a man who's trying to be accepted by the west. He has been doing what he thinks is best for his country while he could've lived an easy life teaching physics in any big university in the west.
Mr. Asad is speaking well...
Hoodbhoy never makes sense to me when he talks about Islam, politics or history. He is a physicist so he should refrain from these topics as he has no background knowledge. Can we take his word about the field of medicine just because he is a physicist? Never. Moreover, this debate did not make sense to me, beause the basic fields of the debaters are far apart. One of them has little knowledge of Islam and other has little knowledge of science. This debate is a waste of time.
Hoodbhoy has more knowledge of Islam than the younger one. You don't need a fucking degree to gain knowledge. Hoodbhoy is a voracious reader. He has knowledge of not only physics but also Islam and history. You learn what you are passionate about.
@@happysoul5031 hoodboy is kafir he want to finish Islam
It only took one Copernicus to blow centuries of utterly fruitless thought on celestial motion completely out of the water.