Skywalker then goes on to be their most effective general and a very successful admiral on top of it. Also saved Yularens life several times. So while I see where he’s coming from, anakin did have serious plot armor and probably boosted his career in the end
I really wish we could have gotten a Yularen or Naval commander centric arc where Jedi aren’t bailing them out. I’d love to see an extended Anaxes arc that shows naval commanders holding off but losing against the seppies. It would then resume into the Bad Batch arc.
More war tactics episodes would be amazing but I think the problem is most writers they have don't actually know anything about tactics and its probably why the jedi are always a part of every fleet. Easier to just have them save the day than learn how to actually play out a real battle
@@NeverwascooL yet they somehow made Anakin, Obi-wan, Plo, Yoda maybe Mace and Luminara know a little about tactics among other separatists. But then again writing an a battle os a whole other matter.
That would require showing more battles where people who actually knew what they were doing were in charge, rather than space wizards using their cheat powers and STILL causing mass friendly casualties.
Here's why: Anakin: "I'm going to ram this damaged Star Destroyer into the enemy blockade." Clone Officer: "Sir, how will you get close enough to do any damage without getting shot down." Anakin: "I'll fake my surrender." Clone Officer: "Sir, that's a war crime."
@@lonelystrategos the Ruusan reformation if im not mistaken is the SW equivalent. That said Palpatine would've never let Anakin be tried for war crimes regardless of what he does.
that's probably a ploy by Palpatine not only to kill jedi but to foster hatred for them so it make's order 66 look more believable and reduce sympathy for the jedi
@@christophermills7693 All by design, too, I mean, that is literally the only reason was cause it was going to cause friction and because Sidious knew the Jedi would take the positions because of their pride and ego as "champions of the republic", that and all of them would overestimate their own abilities...not sure we got numbers but pretty sure a LOT of Jedi died in the first months of the war cause they were idiots...cause "trust in the force" is not a proper battle strategy, nor is it really the "best" moralistic one either to anyone but a detached Jedi.
Jedi are generals, not admirals. So I tend to agree with the Republic Admiralty on their stance on the Jedi taking complete command over the Navy when they had no experience doing so.
They didn’t have experience in army command, either lol - Their tactics were horrible, and their strategy was worse. That was the point. The galaxy was supposed to suffer due to Jedi incompetence and ignorance of the laws and customs of war Successful Jedi generals were a) flukes, or b) screwed up enough to learn by trial and error. Exactly what you do *not* want in high command.
@@merafirewing6591 If by “outdated” you mean “unacceptable in any post-feudal professional military,” sure. It wasn’t a matter of being dated - They were wholly unqualified. What little tactical training they had was suited to leading local militias in peacekeeping operations, not directing a war effort. Tarkin was a monster, no question, but he was 100% right in this.
Don’t blockage the planet, don’t glass worlds, don’t deliberately crash star ships into planets for tactical advantage, don’t use asteroids for planetary tactical advantage, man the Jedi don’t let the republic navy have any fun any more- Tarkin all during the war
@@grim2977 no, no army officers do cannot command naval asset, if a general is not present the LT General will take command same with the Admiral. The 2nd in command will take charge if the first in command is not there.
Nether rank should have been given to Jedi as they had absolutely zero experience in ether and had no place in leadership roles. They should have been used as elite units at best.
@@Suksass That's the point. Palpatine put them in charge to breed resentment. (Note this implies that you are right in your assessment. I am not disagreeing, merely adding further context.)
Tarkin has a good point. The Jedi were suited to fighting in the thick of it. Tarkin and the Generations weren't much better than the Jedi but they were pragmatic. Still Jedi as an advisor wouldn't be a bad idea. Regardless of who was in charge the early years would have been rife with teething problems at best along with a steep learning curve to actual naval tactics and strategies rather than theories.
Coming from the man who will later lose the most powerfull space station and a whole fleet to a bunch of fighters when he should've retreated and let the fleet deal with the fighters. The one who blow up a core world just to win a petty argument. Not exactly the brightest officer out there. I mean... The first movie was in 1977, but there Tarkin was an idiot. We normally lose the perspective of that.
@@Veridiano02 True, by the time of the original sequels Tarkin had become arrogant and stuck in his own ways but during the Clone Wars Tarkin made lot more sense. Generals tend to fight the last war and Tarkin may have fallen into that trap but then the original Trilogy's portrayal of Tarkin was more flat and he wasn't a major character compared to his clone wars version.
It's been established that Tarkin Doctrine was, among other things, made with winning the last war in mind, which with Tarkin not having anyone around willing or able to tell him no fits that he would become stuck in his thinking and ego. It's also true that the Jedi were naturally built for the front line in the thick of it fighting, which is where you saw a lot of them most of the time... Their being given operational control was sub-optimal by Sidious's design, of course, like so much else, including stacking the CIS with some of the worst of the worst so the Jedi never had a chance to talk to anyone one the separatist side who was more reasonable (ironically Obi-wan had a chance with one early on but instead ended up faking a surrender to dupe him.).
@Jacob Huff Tarkin was giving the audience that the Jedi were like Jon Snow from GoT. Both basically knew "nothing" about military science and were more considered almost incompetent field commanders. Better on the ground fighting then commanding 3500+ sized Republic sector armies. More better leading a squad battalion of 300+ of clones while being told by competent cmdrs like Yularen, etc.
In my opinion, the only useful things Jedi can do in a naval battle is to be starfighter pilots, board enemy ships, and use battle meditation. With the exception of these things they’re pretty much useless and a waste of valuable resources on board ship
If the Jedi played the role of leading elite forces on Infiltration missions, essentially playing the role of Green Beret's, Navy Seals etc etc, then the war would've gone a lot smoother.
And what exactly experience those military staff had? Mopping up some pirates? And for a lot of time, until stark hyperspace conflict, Jedi had their own navy. Navy which was disbanded my then supreme Chancellor Valorum. Yeah, that guy.
@@Gustav_Kurigathey would have lost either way. It literally does not matter because if not for Palpatine the republic would have been destroyed fifty times over. The clone army was the absolutely biggest Trojan horse and the entire republic just went "nice in absolutely no way is this extremely convenient army not the most obvious trap in existence"
Gonna be honest, I bet a lot of that hatred left once the Empire came and Vader’s bad boss tendencies started to flare. While the Jedi have their faults, The Empire was a rigid death sentence in the case of an Admiral failing Vader or Palpatine and his inner-circle.
Tarkin had some merits in what he said just look at Jedi like Pong Krell, or at the start Ashoka Tano. Due to Krell's ruthless tactics and eventual betrayal the Republic lost scores of clone troopers despite him having a high success rate the cost of the weaponry, armor and clone life needed for his missions were undoubtedly too high to be anywhere near cost effective. While Tano eventually grew to become an extremely capable Jedi general those first couple missions showed her inexperience non more so when she went against orders and lost her clone squadron along with nearly herself. While tarkin was likely bitter about his status being basically meaningless to the Jedi he definitely had points.
Ironically the Jedi basically copied the Sith military hierarchy when the war began. Just that the Republic didn't appreciate it much when the Jedi were forced into their ranks, while the Sith had their ranks integrated into the military from the beginning.
Also to be fair to the Jedi I'm pretty sure if the Sith had to do what they did the Sith wouldn't of given a care about anyone serving under them regardless of if the Sith in question was wasteful or inexperienced.
Heh, imagine the clone program would have created a couple thousand thrawn clones on the side and put them through a naval officer education run by thrawn. Imagine … thousands of competent commanders able to inspire loyalty in their soldiers…
I think Tarkin had as much of a point as Palpatine wanted him (and the general consensus of the general military and civilian personal) to have, considering he master minded literally everything about both sides of the war.
I think that the Jedi were not the greatest choice for naval command, their training was centred around individual combat with a heavier leaning towards ground combat, in space with warship on warship combat their training proved to be a hindrance, both due to the fact that their strategy was to usually go in to sometimes broadside engagements with essentially carriers and to leave their command to dogfight with their opponents rather than command from the bridge.
@@jonathonrodriguezthomas6457 Kendal Ozzel (and presumably others) would suggest that there's a vast gulf between being taught something, and actually _learning_ it.
The Jedi with force sensitivity would have been better suited as intelligence officers but not direct command. Obi Wan should have been an exception not the rule
Clone Tactician: "This plan is solid and it always works." Jedi: "Yeah, but what if we had all our ships spinning the entire time?" Clone Tactician: **confused order 66 noises**
Palpatine, "the time gas come execute order 66" Clone officer, "oh um sir we sort of shot our jedi general an hour ago" Palpatine "wait what, why" Officer "he was fucking insane and kept getting men killed due to his idiotic plans, he turned our flagship into a top to try and break a blockade".
“Their strategies and way of running the navy was wildly incongruent with naval tradition” *anakin yeeting a venator right into a droid control ship* …ahh yes they were
Realistically, Jedi should have served more of an advanced chaplaincy role. They'd be the moral and religious compass assigned to military units; they'd have some authority, and their advice would have to be respected, but they wouldn't be the ones commanding full armies or fleets. You could attach specialized Clone squads to the Jedi, perhaps very elite troops accustomed to the infiltration or shock and awe strategies the Jedi love so much.
My thoughts exactly, either put them in special vanguard units for heavy fighting/spec ops if they are more combat oriented jedi, or as chaplains and healers if they are more spiritual jedi
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy , agreed. Jedis like Anakin Skywalker would make for excellent special forces types or in Anakin's case an excellent fighter pilot too! As a ground commander I don't see him without training leading much more than a platoon, company tops!!
@@albertoswald8461 you cant be a good commander of troops with many moving pieces in a battle if youre in the thick of it swinging your light saber, too many things to keep track of if youre busy fighting
The intro always brings back memories.... I feel old every time I think about the original SW battlefront games from early 2000s and how alot of people will never understand that reference.
Naval officer: *creates highly detailed battle strategy* Jedi: *ignores strategy and either gets everyone killed or wins because of the force* It's easy to see why officers didn't like the Jedi
I like how Tarkin was most outspoken about Jedi’s command position…yet even he just wanted them striped of command, not murdered en masse. I mean, doubt he cared much when 66 happened but I also imagine he did view them as apart of the republic…just not its navy.
Let's be fair, count duku let them win. If he let the Droids work to their full potential the entire republic army would have been wiped out. They had to look strong enough to be a threat but also had to have a strategy that didn't cripple the republic and that takes a genius of a strategist to pull off.
No. Dooku only realized Sidious' plan in his final moments, when he looked up at him as he was on his knees and about to be decapitated by Anakin. He finally understood why Sidious never let him press advantages. Think that was in the novelization of Revenge of the Sith.
@@JoseRodriguez-eu5ez what no he didn't he knew exactly what he was doing....his plan was to be captured and not killed but he knew he had to let the clones ultimately win
@@MarverlUniverse That's...kinda what I said? Dooku knew he couldn't press his advantages and had to let clones win, but he didn't know why. That's what I was getting at. He realizes in the end that Sidious' plan was to use him, and never conquer the galaxy with him. He understood that Anakin was the prize in all this. And that he was just the catalyst for the boy's fall.
@@JoseRodriguez-eu5ez ...yes Dooku knew about Anakin....thats not at all what you said. you said he never let him press advantages....CAUSE HE KNEW WHY HE COULDNT....please read the books before commenting again.
On one hand the most jedi actually cared for their clones while the naval officers would only see them as organic droids but on the other hand jedi tend to put clones in tactics that are comparable to medieval warfare as opposed to intergalactic warfare which resulted in so many clones needlessly dying.
The thing that always got me was the Jedi code of honor of not using underhanded tactics and stuff like that on a routine basis when most naval officers had a point that you needed to sacrifice some things for the victory as a whole because When you keep a war going for longer the people you save get overshadowed by the amount of civilians and soldiers who have to die because of a prolonged conflict
I mean.... Tarkin DID have a point.... but he wasn't doing it for noble reasons, he just wanted to push his own agenda... but anyways, I think that was one of the reasons why it was so easy to make de jedi the bad guys when the purge happened. Make them naval officers, make the big naval officers resent them... there it is.
If any Jedi did learn a thing or two about naval tactics, it was Jedi General Anakin Skywalker. His knowledge of naval tactics would later confirm to him the incompetence of one of the naval admirals in his charge during the Galactic Civil War, that being of Admiral Kendal Ozzel, who's inept leadership not only failed to identify the location of a rebel base on the remote ice world of Hoth, but also Ozzel's foolish decision to come out of light speed too close to the rebel-occupied system; Ozzel's mistaken conclusion that the Imperial's could surprise an "unexpecting" and "unprepared" rebel force would be the last mistake Admiral Ozzel would ever make.
I want a video on Order 66 and how the Republic non-Clone officers responded. The clones had to follow the order but I think some of the non-clone officers like Yularen might have been taken aback on the order to wipe out not only thr Jedi but younglins as well.
So.. does that mean they ALSO hated Generals like Anakin an Asoka since they ACTUALLY showed they were ACTUALLY just as good helming ships. Surprising in Tano's case especially seeing she was a kid at this time understood well how to command a battleship fairly respectably an effectively.. even if she utterly didn't get commanding fighter units. Though Anakin seemed designed by the Force for basically EVERYTHING combat related apparently at every level an numbers I guess. Would surprise me if the Force ALSO made him good with commanding the equator a massive tank battle or artillery unit duels too. Which is bout only things haven't seen Anakin due at this time unless they ALSO have a version of what we know as Cyber Warfare an Anakin is good at that too
Lore like this is why I wish Disney would do episodes 1-6 in the clone wars format, stretched out with way more detail and points of view. If they keep it as good as clone wars, rebels, and bad batch, it is impossible to fail.
Wow, it's almost like the entire situation was manufactured from the start to place the Jedi into a role they were completely unsuited for in order to turn both the military and civilian population of the Republic against them. Weird!
The problem is that the Jedi lead from the front and the Republic Navy leads from the rear. It's rare for Republic Navy Officers to Lead from the front like Thrawn or Tarken. The Generationals biggest flaw was that they were arrogant they were the best through training and heritage they failed to see that you need to combine Leadership with Strategy and the Jedi needed the Admirals and other officers to give them sound space strategies. The real hate was that career Navy officers could not get the favoritism they had gotten previously.
Even as a Jedi fanboy, I REALLY don't think they shouldn't have taken the leadership role that they took. They should have played the role of ace-up-the-sleeve in the hands of the Generals and Admirals. Advisors, certainly. Commanders, of course. But not as Generals, or other High Command positions. If a Jedi would be given such a role, it should have been earned. Ones such as Obi-Wan and Anakin would have certainly earned their High Command positions in time. A superior as competent as Yularin would have seen the merit of Anakin's insane ideas, and I can see him giving Ani command of some kind of special forces.
Exactly he used both sides then discarded both sides once he has accomplished his goal he was playing with himself for a sick power fantasy nearly did the same with the empire too
Honestly, if I had spent decades working to become an admiral,and then a snippy teenager with lightsabers starts ordering me around, I would've totally been behind order 66.
Idk if i have to choose between a commander with lots of training and high marks, verses a space wizard with less experience but CAN LITERALLY SEE THE FUTURE, i know who im choosing lol. It's not like you can't have the other commander there for advice anyway
Ya exactly. Proper delegation by Jedi with the existing command hierarchy best could hope for. How well played out though was up to each Jedi, and there lay real problem I think as whole “can see future” thing would clash with objective stat based view of war to those commanders and cause division, not to mention fact got Palpy intentionally designing that crap from get go. Prob assigned jedi he knew would clash with characters of certain admirals etc lol
Jedi are top notch commando team leaders due to being a powerful 'force' multiplier in squad combat but most were not properly trained for command nor had the required morals to command effectively.
Here’s how I think command should have been, I use something like this for an independent Halo task force. So at the top would be an Admiral fir general space combat, then a General could oversee ground combat, then as field commanders and elite units would be the Jedi\ Spartan (Spartan more effective due to military training) who shares command of smaller units with a sargeant or some kind of Clone/ Marine officer, the Jedi/ Spartan being a powerful unit very capable of doing lots of damage to the enemy when leading a smaller unit. In space the Jedi can lead boarding parties or if skilled enough lead fighter squadrons. But these officers share and plan strategy, as long as they listen openly to each other, as the higher officer doesn’t always know how harsh a battle may be going.
Palpatine made Tarkin one of his closest advisers during the empire and Tarkin became probably the greatest recruiting tool for the rebellion ever and was responsible for most of the dumbest choices the empire ever made. Death Star, stupid. Tarkin doctrine, counterproductive. Ignoring thrawn, fatal. Second Death Star… why? Dude was more harm than good to the empire.
Star Wars fans, I have noticed, place far too much stock on "leading from the front" and "personal bravery and heroics" when it comes to military leaders, especially generals. Yes, Jedi were very brave and heroic and often led from the front. However, that doesn't make for good generals and is actually counter productive in most cases. Furthermore, their lack of any applicable training or experience resulted in bad calls, completely asinine strategic and operational decisions, and a complete disregard for logistics during planning. The problem with leading from the front is that it results in the officer narrowing their focus. This is fine for squad or platoon leaders, as they don't need to care about the bigger picture. However, when you get to Company and above, the need to consider areas beyond your immediate line of sight increases and leading from the front very quickly forces those thoughts from your mind as you focus on what is in front of you. There is a related issue with leading from the front, namely the negative impact it has on your subordinates. When a Company Commander starts leading a platoon, it sends the message to both the enlisted soldiers and the Platoon leader that the Commander doesn't trust that leader to lead the platoon. The same goes for a General leading from the front. And I don't think I need to explain how devastating it can be for a senior officer to undermine the authority of a subordinate in front of his or her men. Personal bravery and heroics look great on screen and in reports. However, it is not useful for a flag officer. Flag officers are, to put it bluntly, supposed to supervise and manage a battle, leaving the details to their subordinates. While personal bravery will win points with the troops, it won't win battles. As a historical example, during Operation Crusader in 1941 Field Marshal Erwin Rommel, loved by the same folks who think that Jedi are great generals for his habit of leading from the front, personally went looking for British supply dumps on 24 November. He was nearly captured when his Mammoth broke down and a British supply column passed bare yards away from him. This is leaving out the fact that his offensive had left him behind British lines with no hope of resupply or reinforcement, as his army was out of fuel and over stretched with unengaged and fully operational British and Commonwealth tank forces in his rear. So yeah, lots of bravery and heroics but it accomplished very little and left him exposed to counterattack. An example of this in Star Wars would be pretty much any battle led by Anakin Skywalker. Anakin always leads from the front, urging his men forward as laser bolts fly back and forth, filling the air with the stench of burned flesh and ozone. But what good is that when his men wind up miles behind enemy lines with no supplies and several large enemy formations that are still capable of counter attack? Is it any wonder that the 501st suffered such appalling casualties at battles like Cristophsis and Teth? To me, it is not, as the Jedi put an emotionally immature 20 year old in a position that, by rights, should have been occupied by someone twice his age and with two or three decades of experience. Moreover, the Jedi have none of the training that a professional officer would receive. In the US military, Officer Training generally begins with 4 years of instruction at an Academy. West Point, Annapolis, or the Air Force Academy at Colorado Springs. From there, they then spend around 10 years moving from Second Lieutenant (equivalent) to Major (or equivalent), 10 years that also includes (at least in the Army) a 10-month course at the Command and General Staff Training College. And then it's about 12 years before you make it to Colonel (or equivalent). So before any officer even makes it to Flag rank (General or Admiral), they've been in the military for nearly 30 years, have gone through about 5 or 6 years of education, and have spent time commanding units as small as a few dozen men to as large as a few thousand, and (in order to be eligible to promotion to Flag Rank in the US) in command of personnel from multiple branches. The Jedi have undergone none of that and so have none of the training or experience that a career soldier or sailor would have. What they do have is flashy space magic, a laser sword, and Zen Buddhist meditation training. Even worse, they have none of the support that a career soldier would have. A proper General or Admiral as a staff to support them. Men and women who, through training and experience, are subject matter experts in specific fields: Personnel, Logistics, Communications, Intelligence, Plans, and Operations. These officers have staffs of their own, enabling them to provide their commander with a fully fleshed out plan, including personnel requirements, intelligence reports and analysis of enemy strength and dispositions, logistical availabilities and requirements, communications requirements and procedures, and necessary measures to be taken to ensure the enemy does not detect the offensive before it launches. But the Jedi have no staff. They do all of this themselves and it shows. At the Second Battle of Geonosis, the Jedi lead a massive invasion. From what we see on screen, there are around a dozen different landing zones, deploying around 2 million combat troops. However, from what we are shown of the planning phase, the Jedi have no idea about the enemy defenses. The only person who brings up enemy defenses and dispositions is Ahsoka, who mentions a large fortification that is immediately brushed off by Anakin as something they won't need to worry about. Cody indicates that all forces will be at the landing zone at an exact time, giving no indication or expectation of resistance. Unsurprisingly, this plan goes to hell immediately. Anakin's force is almost completely destroyed, with only about a single company remaining from an initial landing force of around 2,700 men. Ki Adi-Mundi, starting with a similar force, loses about half of it and is forced down miles from the landing zone. Only Kenobi's force makes it to the landing zone and still loses at least half its strength, with no ability to receive reinforcements or resupply due to heavy enemy air and ground fire. It is nothing short of a miracle that the Jedi were able to win that fight In conclusion, not only do I find it unsurprising that the Jedi were despised as naval commanders, I find it an entirely justifiable stance, given the repeated tactical, operational, and strategic failings of the Jedi, brought on by a lack of training and experience combined with a focus on personal bravery and heroics. The Jedi as generals did not serve the war effort, only the interests of the Chancellor.
@@kosmaspiratos6583 don't get me wrong. I love some of the Jedi. Obi-Wan, Anakin, Mace, Yoda, Ahsoka, Luminara. They're all fun and interesting characters and I enjoy watching them kick ass. They just aren't great generals or admirals. But they would make fine Lieutenants.
Tarkin has a good point, why waste that many lives in favor of stupid actions that doesn't think about the larger picture? The Jedi shouldn't have been put in such high positions just because they were Jedi, it even in the end took down the Jedi order as a while because of it.
I bet the clown show in the Empire was the result of Palpatine himself and his Death Star and to some extent Vader (putting his fleet in an asteroid field). With all the flaws Jedi had in commanding navies the Sith are even worse. If Jedi wanted to preserve their forces, Sith had no regard for losses whatsoever.
Much of my family is former military, inexperienced or simply bad officers can cause massive problems, casualties, and setbacks, to many of those and the war is lost.
Some of the comments were right in point, re Jedi’s lack of experience on naval warfare which is very different from ground and air warfare. However, some other comments did not reflect an important factor in the dynamics of military leadership, which mostly becomes its downfall, the acquisition of power, especially, from officers who were related to the elites families, and gained higher ranks faster than others, probably due favoritism.
The problem all comes down to a demilitarized republic suddenly gaining a elite army and having to adapt into war time after several centuries of peace.
Tarken had an ego, and if it wasn't stroked, he was bitter about it. He also wasn't the cleanest person either, as he was double dealing a bit, and he dang well knew the Jedi might catch him.
I think the Jedi should have been advisors or something like that to the navy generals or second in command cause they do have a point that the Jedi moral code would get in the way
Would love to see some more content centered around the novels we all grew up with. So many good authors and stories being overlooked in favor of the clone wars era… Maybe we could do a yuzhan vong series?
Agreed. I really do enjoy the channel's take on most things, but I would love for them to branch out from the CW. At least for a couple of videos a month if they didn't to do it too often. Some of their stuff can end up being/including rehashed/reworded parts of old videos with the CW focus.
Tradition is something that can both help, and hinder war strategies. It can hinder it by using outadated tactics that have very obvious weaknesses, and it can help by providing helpful insight on how to improve your strategy. But the best strategy is ultimately one that makes it impossible for the enemy to predict and counter. With every terrain and environment requires new strategies and tactics, and with different types and numbers of assets, so is the same. Ultimately, the best war strategy, is a flexible one, one that you can change and adapt to different environments and situations so you can keep your enemy on their toes trying to counter your strategy.
He had a clone wars book . Rex and ashoka. He was captain of an accenmenter, but fitted as missile cruiser, . ( concussion missiles) like a victory. . He was a bachelor and was sidelined, carer wise , because of a relationship with a republic intelligence agent. ( spy ) he liked rex and ashoka.
I imagine most naval offices felt the same way Thel 'Vadam felt when the Prophet of Stewardship commandeered his fleet during the Battle of Installation 04.
I guess this fancy aristocrats (always the best choice for a naval officer, having the spoiled brat of a duke or a duchess in the bridge where he or she can do his or her will it's always the best strategy, specially when his or her career was payed by momy and daddy, that's always great lol) just forgett the republic of old, where the jedi where in charge of every single military asset during the war because jedi were able to sense the entire battlefield, boost allied morale and make the soldiers, officers, captains or even admiral's minds focus on one target and work with great cordination, imposible to achieve otherwise. I mean, the mandalorians even learn this and took profit of it by disrupting the jedi minds by commiting every war crime on the list. Having a jedi commanding your troops, both in the ground and space, is like having a constant buff to focus and courage, so it's a great advantge. And the jedi tactics, while normally very risky and sometimes even crazy, created on the fly, are normally done becase they can "sense" the enemy, and know how to counter act their plans much better than any army inteligence. But I guess having a spoiled aristocrat born from a corrupt family in a position of undeserved power with tactics that were written in an era long forgotten against enemies that are no longer there is much better than that. Said by the man who lost the most powerfull space station and a whole fleet to a bunch of fighters because "we're not gonna retreat now, when we are so close to glory". A smart decision in deed. I mean, Tarkin is still probably the most useless navy officer and one of the worst war criminal of the galaxy. The jedi are those who managed to delay, stop and and even counter and advance against separatist army with great disadvantge, who even managed to survive long enough and defeat the empire. You choose who you want to believe.
I think, it’s a little of both. I think he’s salty about being overshadowed and exaggerated the Jedis faults as generals to push his views. It’s actually kind of obvious, as he never once mentions their numerous accomplishments in the war.
@@garyvincent7397well we know that holochess and holographic battle simulations are a thing, so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to classify them as videogames or at the very least assume that they would use similar technology to create something more alike.
@@flatheadgg2443 perhaps but in universe im not sure theres much demand for it, there might be other holovariants of boardgames but i doubt a large audience for videogames exist based on what we know of starwars and what its based on
Why would you need videogames other than training sims, when you can literally fly across the galaxy, fighting pirates and alien creatures, or being a scavenger, etc? Even Luke intended to get off the farm and join the empire for some adventure and presumably credits to go his own way after his service... I'm sure there were games, but they probably weren't very good compared to what you could actually do in real life, especially considering if your life sucked bad enough to benefit from videogames, you probably wouldn't have time for them, anyhow.
I mean, had not a chronically nepotistic, ineffective and overtly brutal officer corps have been the alternative to the Jedi I think the Jedi should not have continued to be part of the military.
Considering Tarkin’s grand plan and hubris couldn’t successfully deal with the rebellion and basically was single handedly responsible for the fall of the empire, I’m not sure he’s got a lot of room to speak of others flaws. Don’t throw rocks in a glass house.
"Ya know these people that we can make into groups of 5 and they could probably break any line and there wouldn't be any weird shifts in leadership and tactics when they leave for special missions?" "Yup" "Lets make them Generals" "Brilliant!"
Haven’t watched the video yet. Just wanted to comment that thumbnail is HILARIOUS. You know that Jedi just suggested the most absurd plan ever and does not have the surname skywalker
The problem with naval warfare is that you’re dealing with not just three dimensions but instead having to deal with four different directions in which an enemy can attack you from not just above but also from behind you as well as underneath you, or much like the malevolent where a single squadron of barely under manned Y wing bombers were able to deal significant damage to a ship as large and as capable as the malevolent which was capable of wiping out entire fleets if left unchecked and so even small fighters which posses hyperdrives is also another tool to be used as well as another problem to deal with, not to mention that for the majority of space, space outside of asteroid belts and planets is unfortunately mostly empty and so trying to fight an enemy that can clearly be seen and they can see you isn’t ideal, not to mention micro jumps in which an enemy can jump to a certain location giving the enemy a tactical advantage be it behind your formation or a wing of fighters jumping in very closely to your forces
as a kid, out of all the people in command of the Republic forces, I always liked Admiral Yularen. He was the logical voice when Obi-Wan wasn't present, and if anything he was a lot smarter than the Jedi when it came to warfare. Clearly his prowess was rightfully seen and his continued service in the empire (though upsetting) was well placed. Its kind of sad to see that intelligent characters like that don't get the thought they deserve.
It makes total sense. I mean in a ground battle I doubt anyone would say the jedi weren't worth dozens if not hundreds of soldiers. But the jedi were never trained to be generals of armies or even admirals. The soldiers who trained more for these positions knew better tactics and had more experience for these roles. So despite how fast a jedi could learn they would still be very behind the other high ranking soldiers who had years of experience and training. Ideally the jedi would have left the command to the officers and interfere when there is need but this structure would have been hard to maintain.
![Why General Grievous Secretly ADMIRED Clones [But still HATED Jedi with a Vengeance]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QZm8Wfc-8hQ/mqdefault.jpg)
![Why General Grievous Secretly ADMIRED Clones [But still HATED Jedi with a Vengeance]](/img/tr.png)
“Of all the Jedi, why did I have to end up with Skywalker?”
-Admiral Yularen
Skywalker then goes on to be their most effective general and a very successful admiral on top of it. Also saved Yularens life several times. So while I see where he’s coming from, anakin did have serious plot armor and probably boosted his career in the end
@@blakeetter280 facts
Still better than Krell
@@mazombieme4045 its kinda ironic krell got o66'd before o66
You got one of the few Jedi who truly cared what happened to his men. Heavy losses, but a commander who always led from the front.
I really wish we could have gotten a Yularen or Naval commander centric arc where Jedi aren’t bailing them out. I’d love to see an extended Anaxes arc that shows naval commanders holding off but losing against the seppies. It would then resume into the Bad Batch arc.
Or even proper Legends depictions of him. Shocking that he only turned popular and notable from TCW 2008 onwards.
More war tactics episodes would be amazing but I think the problem is most writers they have don't actually know anything about tactics and its probably why the jedi are always a part of every fleet.
Easier to just have them save the day than learn how to actually play out a real battle
@@NeverwascooL That is very true. Writing Military tactics in fiction is quite hard.
@@NeverwascooL yet they somehow made Anakin, Obi-wan, Plo, Yoda maybe Mace and Luminara know a little about tactics among other separatists.
But then again writing an a battle os a whole other matter.
That would require showing more battles where people who actually knew what they were doing were in charge, rather than space wizards using their cheat powers and STILL causing mass friendly casualties.
Here's why:
Anakin: "I'm going to ram this damaged Star Destroyer into the enemy blockade."
Clone Officer: "Sir, how will you get close enough to do any damage without getting shot down."
Anakin: "I'll fake my surrender."
Clone Officer: "Sir, that's a war crime."
Can't violate the Geneva Convention if there is no Geneva in the galaxy far, far away.
I mean, when we see that the droids fire first sometimes. War crimes all around :)
@@lonelystrategos I’m pretty sure they’d have there own version of the Geneva Convention in the Galactic Republic.
@@emperorofscelnar8443 I don't think any equivalent to it was ever mentioned, but I would expect there to be one.
@@lonelystrategos the Ruusan reformation if im not mistaken is the SW equivalent. That said Palpatine would've never let Anakin be tried for war crimes regardless of what he does.
Jedi: *does something really crazy*
Clone Naval Officer: "That's not how space fleet battle works!"
skywalker does something crazy and they’re like yup that’s how it is
Any naval officer: the codex astartes does not support this action
@@nickkozak4763 in all fairness that's because he leads by example and makes it work with his immense skill
Anakin: Well it did work.
Very true...The entire chain of command pretty much disliked the Jedi being put in charge to begin with.
What is Palleon’s view on the Jedi since he also saw action during the clone wars and worked with the Jedi before
even the jedi disliked the jedi being in charge to begin with
It's almost like they were put there on purpose to draw ire from the non force users of the republic
that's probably a ploy by Palpatine not only to kill jedi but to foster hatred for them so it make's order 66 look more believable and reduce sympathy for the jedi
@@christophermills7693 All by design, too, I mean, that is literally the only reason was cause it was going to cause friction and because Sidious knew the Jedi would take the positions because of their pride and ego as "champions of the republic", that and all of them would overestimate their own abilities...not sure we got numbers but pretty sure a LOT of Jedi died in the first months of the war cause they were idiots...cause "trust in the force" is not a proper battle strategy, nor is it really the "best" moralistic one either to anyone but a detached Jedi.
Jedi are generals, not admirals. So I tend to agree with the Republic Admiralty on their stance on the Jedi taking complete command over the Navy when they had no experience doing so.
They didn’t have experience in army command, either lol - Their tactics were horrible, and their strategy was worse. That was the point. The galaxy was supposed to suffer due to Jedi incompetence and ignorance of the laws and customs of war
Successful Jedi generals were a) flukes, or b) screwed up enough to learn by trial and error.
Exactly what you do *not* want in high command.
@@brandywinebridget the jedi tactics were very outdated to begin with.
@@merafirewing6591 If by “outdated” you mean “unacceptable in any post-feudal professional military,” sure.
It wasn’t a matter of being dated - They were wholly unqualified. What little tactical training they had was suited to leading local militias in peacekeeping operations, not directing a war effort. Tarkin was a monster, no question, but he was 100% right in this.
@@brandywinebridget still his solution would be no better than the jedi.
Eh, it's not like the trust-fund brats did much better most of the time.
Don’t blockage the planet, don’t glass worlds, don’t deliberately crash star ships into planets for tactical advantage, don’t use asteroids for planetary tactical advantage, man the Jedi don’t let the republic navy have any fun any more- Tarkin all during the war
"Haha war crime go brrrrrr"
~Anakin Skywalker probably
*blockade
Tarkin wishes he was in 40k
And this is why General and Admiral need to be distinct positions.
They are technically, but the Jedi are too "noble" to realize that.
On the ground: General is in charge
In space (or sea): The Admiral is in command.
Admiral is a naval rank, general is the army equivalent, they only have command over one another's forces if the other is not present
@@grim2977 no, no army officers do cannot command naval asset, if a general is not present the LT General will take command same with the Admiral. The 2nd in command will take charge if the first in command is not there.
Nether rank should have been given to Jedi as they had absolutely zero experience in ether and had no place in leadership roles.
They should have been used as elite units at best.
@@Suksass
That's the point. Palpatine put them in charge to breed resentment.
(Note this implies that you are right in your assessment. I am not disagreeing, merely adding further context.)
Tarkin has a good point. The Jedi were suited to fighting in the thick of it. Tarkin and the Generations weren't much better than the Jedi but they were pragmatic. Still Jedi as an advisor wouldn't be a bad idea. Regardless of who was in charge the early years would have been rife with teething problems at best along with a steep learning curve to actual naval tactics and strategies rather than theories.
Coming from the man who will later lose the most powerfull space station and a whole fleet to a bunch of fighters when he should've retreated and let the fleet deal with the fighters. The one who blow up a core world just to win a petty argument. Not exactly the brightest officer out there. I mean... The first movie was in 1977, but there Tarkin was an idiot. We normally lose the perspective of that.
@@Veridiano02 True, by the time of the original sequels Tarkin had become arrogant and stuck in his own ways but during the Clone Wars Tarkin made lot more sense. Generals tend to fight the last war and Tarkin may have fallen into that trap but then the original Trilogy's portrayal of Tarkin was more flat and he wasn't a major character compared to his clone wars version.
It's been established that Tarkin Doctrine was, among other things, made with winning the last war in mind, which with Tarkin not having anyone around willing or able to tell him no fits that he would become stuck in his thinking and ego.
It's also true that the Jedi were naturally built for the front line in the thick of it fighting, which is where you saw a lot of them most of the time... Their being given operational control was sub-optimal by Sidious's design, of course, like so much else, including stacking the CIS with some of the worst of the worst so the Jedi never had a chance to talk to anyone one the separatist side who was more reasonable (ironically Obi-wan had a chance with one early on but instead ended up faking a surrender to dupe him.).
@Jacob Huff Tarkin was giving the audience that the Jedi were like Jon Snow from GoT. Both basically knew "nothing" about military science and were more considered almost incompetent field commanders. Better on the ground fighting then commanding 3500+ sized Republic sector armies. More better leading a squad battalion of 300+ of clones while being told by competent cmdrs like Yularen, etc.
@@Veridiano02the death star exploding was never Tarkins fault, you simply did not pay attention, everything else on him though cannot be defended
In my opinion, the only useful things Jedi can do in a naval battle is to be starfighter pilots, board enemy ships, and use battle meditation. With the exception of these things they’re pretty much useless and a waste of valuable resources on board ship
Besides Skywalker. He had some incredible strategies like the AT-TEs on the asteroids and as boarding crafts
If the Jedi played the role of leading elite forces on Infiltration missions, essentially playing the role of Green Beret's, Navy Seals etc etc, then the war would've gone a lot smoother.
Can you blame them? Religious telekinetic Space Wizards telling *EXPERIENCED* military staff how to do your job. I’d be pissed too. 😠 😡 😤
And what exactly experience those military staff had? Mopping up some pirates? And for a lot of time, until stark hyperspace conflict, Jedi had their own navy. Navy which was disbanded my then supreme Chancellor Valorum. Yeah, that guy.
@@unholyknight786 That's more than the Jedi did. And none of the jedi currently alive were experienced in naval affairs.
@@Gustav_Kurigathey would have lost either way. It literally does not matter because if not for Palpatine the republic would have been destroyed fifty times over. The clone army was the absolutely biggest Trojan horse and the entire republic just went "nice in absolutely no way is this extremely convenient army not the most obvious trap in existence"
Gonna be honest, I bet a lot of that hatred left once the Empire came and Vader’s bad boss tendencies started to flare. While the Jedi have their faults, The Empire was a rigid death sentence in the case of an Admiral failing Vader or Palpatine and his inner-circle.
Tarkin had some merits in what he said just look at Jedi like Pong Krell, or at the start Ashoka Tano. Due to Krell's ruthless tactics and eventual betrayal the Republic lost scores of clone troopers despite him having a high success rate the cost of the weaponry, armor and clone life needed for his missions were undoubtedly too high to be anywhere near cost effective. While Tano eventually grew to become an extremely capable Jedi general those first couple missions showed her inexperience non more so when she went against orders and lost her clone squadron along with nearly herself. While tarkin was likely bitter about his status being basically meaningless to the Jedi he definitely had points.
Ironically the Jedi basically copied the Sith military hierarchy when the war began. Just that the Republic didn't appreciate it much when the Jedi were forced into their ranks, while the Sith had their ranks integrated into the military from the beginning.
Also to be fair to the Jedi I'm pretty sure if the Sith had to do what they did the Sith wouldn't of given a care about anyone serving under them regardless of if the Sith in question was wasteful or inexperienced.
I love that thumbnail. The clones are like "bruh what are you thinking?"
Grand Admiral Thrawn would love to work with the Clone Naval Officers and show them the ropes of space navy strategy under his tutelage.
Thrawn could have ruled the galaxy with the storm troopers, imagine what he could have done with the grand army of the republic.
Heh, imagine the clone program would have created a couple thousand thrawn clones on the side and put them through a naval officer education run by thrawn. Imagine … thousands of competent commanders able to inspire loyalty in their soldiers…
They would be exciting to watch.
@@sebastianbauer4768 thrawn raising baby thrawns would be hilarious
@@blakeetter280 Defacing art deserves capital punishment under the inevitable Thrawn Empire.
I think Tarkin had as much of a point as Palpatine wanted him (and the general consensus of the general military and civilian personal) to have, considering he master minded literally everything about both sides of the war.
I think that the Jedi were not the greatest choice for naval command, their training was centred around individual combat with a heavier leaning towards ground combat, in space with warship on warship combat their training proved to be a hindrance, both due to the fact that their strategy was to usually go in to sometimes broadside engagements with essentially carriers and to leave their command to dogfight with their opponents rather than command from the bridge.
And the nepotist rich-kids did any better?
@Matthew Marden At the very least, they were taught actual tactics
It goes beyond that. The Order had no oversight whatsoever.
@@jonathonrodriguezthomas6457 Kendal Ozzel (and presumably others) would suggest that there's a vast gulf between being taught something, and actually
_learning_ it.
@@oneproudbrowncoat That's true, though in this case, who could reasonably provide said oversight?
Tarkin and several other navy officers: Just wait till my father he’s about this.
Does anyone else read this quote in Draco Malfoy’s voice?
@@dogloversrule8476 I just wanted to answer the exact same thing to that comment!
@@cyberfux did your imagination also conjure the looking down the nose in a haughty and superior fashion as well?
@@dogloversrule8476 As well as a wild Hermione appearing and punching him on the nose!
@@cyberfux one of my favorite scenes. One of the few that tops it is Mrs Weasley vs Belatrix
The Jedi with force sensitivity would have been better suited as intelligence officers but not direct command. Obi Wan should have been an exception not the rule
When Order 66 kicks in, those Clone Naval Officers would be more than happy to carry it out.
I think both arguments hold merit. The jedi did often break with naval norms, and sometimes it worked out very well, other times it was a disaster.
Clone Tactician: "This plan is solid and it always works."
Jedi: "Yeah, but what if we had all our ships spinning the entire time?"
Clone Tactician: **confused order 66 noises**
Spinning is a good trick. If they had done that with capital ships, the war would have been over in weeks.
Palpatine, "the time gas come execute order 66"
Clone officer, "oh um sir we sort of shot our jedi general an hour ago"
Palpatine "wait what, why"
Officer "he was fucking insane and kept getting men killed due to his idiotic plans, he turned our flagship into a top to try and break a blockade".
Jedi must love Beyblade battles
Imagine if a unit of clones saw their Jedi general get killed in duty only for order 66 to get issued minutes later
Rex: "It is a good trick"
“Their strategies and way of running the navy was wildly incongruent with naval tradition”
*anakin yeeting a venator right into a droid control ship*
…ahh yes they were
Jedi were at their best leading commando raids. Not as generals, fleet commanders or any overarching plan.
Realistically, Jedi should have served more of an advanced chaplaincy role. They'd be the moral and religious compass assigned to military units; they'd have some authority, and their advice would have to be respected, but they wouldn't be the ones commanding full armies or fleets. You could attach specialized Clone squads to the Jedi, perhaps very elite troops accustomed to the infiltration or shock and awe strategies the Jedi love so much.
My thoughts exactly, either put them in special vanguard units for heavy fighting/spec ops if they are more combat oriented jedi, or as chaplains and healers if they are more spiritual jedi
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy , agreed. Jedis like Anakin Skywalker would make for excellent special forces types or in Anakin's case an excellent fighter pilot too! As a ground commander I don't see him without training leading much more than a platoon, company tops!!
@@albertoswald8461 yeah I was thinking platoon commander level rank, so a lieutenant or captain tops
@@albertoswald8461 you cant be a good commander of troops with many moving pieces in a battle if youre in the thick of it swinging your light saber, too many things to keep track of if youre busy fighting
The intro always brings back memories.... I feel old every time I think about the original SW battlefront games from early 2000s and how alot of people will never understand that reference.
Naval officer: *creates highly detailed battle strategy*
Jedi: *ignores strategy and either gets everyone killed or wins because of the force*
It's easy to see why officers didn't like the Jedi
Tarken was salty as hell cause he wasn't making the orders that got soldiers killed. The Taken Doctrine.
I like how Tarkin was most outspoken about Jedi’s command position…yet even he just wanted them striped of command, not murdered en masse.
I mean, doubt he cared much when 66 happened but I also imagine he did view them as apart of the republic…just not its navy.
Yularen, “Out of all the Jedi, why did I ended up with Skywalker?”
Palpatine, “Because I ordered you to. “
Let's be fair, count duku let them win. If he let the Droids work to their full potential the entire republic army would have been wiped out. They had to look strong enough to be a threat but also had to have a strategy that didn't cripple the republic and that takes a genius of a strategist to pull off.
No. Dooku only realized Sidious' plan in his final moments, when he looked up at him as he was on his knees and about to be decapitated by Anakin. He finally understood why Sidious never let him press advantages.
Think that was in the novelization of Revenge of the Sith.
@@JoseRodriguez-eu5ez what no he didn't he knew exactly what he was doing....his plan was to be captured and not killed but he knew he had to let the clones ultimately win
@@MarverlUniverse
That's...kinda what I said? Dooku knew he couldn't press his advantages and had to let clones win, but he didn't know why. That's what I was getting at.
He realizes in the end that Sidious' plan was to use him, and never conquer the galaxy with him. He understood that Anakin was the prize in all this. And that he was just the catalyst for the boy's fall.
@@JoseRodriguez-eu5ez ...yes Dooku knew about Anakin....thats not at all what you said. you said he never let him press advantages....CAUSE HE KNEW WHY HE COULDNT....please read the books before commenting again.
On one hand the most jedi actually cared for their clones while the naval officers would only see them as organic droids but on the other hand jedi tend to put clones in tactics that are comparable to medieval warfare as opposed to intergalactic warfare which resulted in so many clones needlessly dying.
Depends on what Jedi your talking about
*Pong Krell has entered the chat*
The thing that always got me was the Jedi code of honor of not using underhanded tactics and stuff like that on a routine basis when most naval officers had a point that you needed to sacrifice some things for the victory as a whole because When you keep a war going for longer the people you save get overshadowed by the amount of civilians and soldiers who have to die because of a prolonged conflict
I mean.... Tarkin DID have a point.... but he wasn't doing it for noble reasons, he just wanted to push his own agenda... but anyways, I think that was one of the reasons why it was so easy to make de jedi the bad guys when the purge happened. Make them naval officers, make the big naval officers resent them... there it is.
Naval officer : YOU SHOULD HAD NEVER BE GIVEN THE COMMAND OF THE FLEET
Jedi : We know
Lol I love how all the stills that have Ahsoka and Tarkin show Ahsoka giving Tarkin a nasty side-eye 😆
I can't help but feel that this was all part of Palpatine's plan.
If any Jedi did learn a thing or two about naval tactics, it was Jedi General Anakin Skywalker. His knowledge of naval tactics would later confirm to him the incompetence of one of the naval admirals in his charge during the Galactic Civil War, that being of Admiral Kendal Ozzel, who's inept leadership not only failed to identify the location of a rebel base on the remote ice world of Hoth, but also Ozzel's foolish decision to come out of light speed too close to the rebel-occupied system; Ozzel's mistaken conclusion that the Imperial's could surprise an "unexpecting" and "unprepared" rebel force would be the last mistake Admiral Ozzel would ever make.
Imagine the frustration of being a military man your entire life just to have your position challenged by the local pastor.
I want a video on Order 66 and how the Republic non-Clone officers responded. The clones had to follow the order but I think some of the non-clone officers like Yularen might have been taken aback on the order to wipe out not only thr Jedi but younglins as well.
So.. does that mean they ALSO hated Generals like Anakin an Asoka since they ACTUALLY showed they were ACTUALLY just as good helming ships. Surprising in Tano's case especially seeing she was a kid at this time understood well how to command a battleship fairly respectably an effectively.. even if she utterly didn't get commanding fighter units. Though Anakin seemed designed by the Force for basically EVERYTHING combat related apparently at every level an numbers I guess. Would surprise me if the Force ALSO made him good with commanding the equator a massive tank battle or artillery unit duels too. Which is bout only things haven't seen Anakin due at this time unless they ALSO have a version of what we know as Cyber Warfare an Anakin is good at that too
Lore like this is why I wish Disney would do episodes 1-6 in the clone wars format, stretched out with way more detail and points of view. If they keep it as good as clone wars, rebels, and bad batch, it is impossible to fail.
If it wasn't for Tarkin. Maybe the Empire could've lived longer.
Wow, it's almost like the entire situation was manufactured from the start to place the Jedi into a role they were completely unsuited for in order to turn both the military and civilian population of the Republic against them.
Weird!
The problem is that the Jedi lead from the front and the Republic Navy leads from the rear. It's rare for Republic Navy Officers to Lead from the front like Thrawn or Tarken.
The Generationals biggest flaw was that they were arrogant they were the best through training and heritage they failed to see that you need to combine Leadership with Strategy and the Jedi needed the Admirals and other officers to give them sound space strategies.
The real hate was that career Navy officers could not get the favoritism they had gotten previously.
They where salty, they didn’t like that they had to take orders from others.
Even as a Jedi fanboy, I REALLY don't think they shouldn't have taken the leadership role that they took. They should have played the role of ace-up-the-sleeve in the hands of the Generals and Admirals. Advisors, certainly. Commanders, of course. But not as Generals, or other High Command positions. If a Jedi would be given such a role, it should have been earned.
Ones such as Obi-Wan and Anakin would have certainly earned their High Command positions in time. A superior as competent as Yularin would have seen the merit of Anakin's insane ideas, and I can see him giving Ani command of some kind of special forces.
1:21, the republic casually carrying the SMG from halo 2
a quick summary:
anakin skywalker: let me cook bro
admiral yularen: please stop this is a war crime
The Republic didn't win the war,
The Confederacy didn't either.
Palpatine won, he played both sides and came out on top
Exactly he used both sides then discarded both sides once he has accomplished his goal he was playing with himself for a sick power fantasy nearly did the same with the empire too
Love your OG Battlefront opening, great work Geetsly.
Honestly, if I had spent decades working to become an admiral,and then a snippy teenager with lightsabers starts ordering me around, I would've totally been behind order 66.
Idk if i have to choose between a commander with lots of training and high marks, verses a space wizard with less experience but CAN LITERALLY SEE THE FUTURE, i know who im choosing lol. It's not like you can't have the other commander there for advice anyway
Ya exactly.
Proper delegation by Jedi with the existing command hierarchy best could hope for.
How well played out though was up to each Jedi, and there lay real problem I think as whole “can see future” thing would clash with objective stat based view of war to those commanders and cause division, not to mention fact got Palpy intentionally designing that crap from get go. Prob assigned jedi he knew would clash with characters of certain admirals etc lol
Jedi are top notch commando team leaders due to being a powerful 'force' multiplier in squad combat but most were not properly trained for command nor had the required morals to command effectively.
Here’s how I think command should have been, I use something like this for an independent Halo task force. So at the top would be an Admiral fir general space combat, then a General could oversee ground combat, then as field commanders and elite units would be the Jedi\ Spartan (Spartan more effective due to military training) who shares command of smaller units with a sargeant or some kind of Clone/ Marine officer, the Jedi/ Spartan being a powerful unit very capable of doing lots of damage to the enemy when leading a smaller unit. In space the Jedi can lead boarding parties or if skilled enough lead fighter squadrons. But these officers share and plan strategy, as long as they listen openly to each other, as the higher officer doesn’t always know how harsh a battle may be going.
all part of the senates plan
Tarkin had a point, true. But this doesn't mean the majority of the Republic Navy higher command was more reliable. We all know the story.
Palpatine made Tarkin one of his closest advisers during the empire and Tarkin became probably the greatest recruiting tool for the rebellion ever and was responsible for most of the dumbest choices the empire ever made. Death Star, stupid. Tarkin doctrine, counterproductive. Ignoring thrawn, fatal. Second Death Star… why? Dude was more harm than good to the empire.
If you had a Jedi onboard, your ship will probably blow up shorty after by the plot
Star Wars fans, I have noticed, place far too much stock on "leading from the front" and "personal bravery and heroics" when it comes to military leaders, especially generals. Yes, Jedi were very brave and heroic and often led from the front. However, that doesn't make for good generals and is actually counter productive in most cases. Furthermore, their lack of any applicable training or experience resulted in bad calls, completely asinine strategic and operational decisions, and a complete disregard for logistics during planning.
The problem with leading from the front is that it results in the officer narrowing their focus. This is fine for squad or platoon leaders, as they don't need to care about the bigger picture. However, when you get to Company and above, the need to consider areas beyond your immediate line of sight increases and leading from the front very quickly forces those thoughts from your mind as you focus on what is in front of you.
There is a related issue with leading from the front, namely the negative impact it has on your subordinates. When a Company Commander starts leading a platoon, it sends the message to both the enlisted soldiers and the Platoon leader that the Commander doesn't trust that leader to lead the platoon. The same goes for a General leading from the front. And I don't think I need to explain how devastating it can be for a senior officer to undermine the authority of a subordinate in front of his or her men.
Personal bravery and heroics look great on screen and in reports. However, it is not useful for a flag officer. Flag officers are, to put it bluntly, supposed to supervise and manage a battle, leaving the details to their subordinates. While personal bravery will win points with the troops, it won't win battles. As a historical example, during Operation Crusader in 1941 Field Marshal Erwin Rommel, loved by the same folks who think that Jedi are great generals for his habit of leading from the front, personally went looking for British supply dumps on 24 November. He was nearly captured when his Mammoth broke down and a British supply column passed bare yards away from him. This is leaving out the fact that his offensive had left him behind British lines with no hope of resupply or reinforcement, as his army was out of fuel and over stretched with unengaged and fully operational British and Commonwealth tank forces in his rear. So yeah, lots of bravery and heroics but it accomplished very little and left him exposed to counterattack.
An example of this in Star Wars would be pretty much any battle led by Anakin Skywalker. Anakin always leads from the front, urging his men forward as laser bolts fly back and forth, filling the air with the stench of burned flesh and ozone. But what good is that when his men wind up miles behind enemy lines with no supplies and several large enemy formations that are still capable of counter attack? Is it any wonder that the 501st suffered such appalling casualties at battles like Cristophsis and Teth? To me, it is not, as the Jedi put an emotionally immature 20 year old in a position that, by rights, should have been occupied by someone twice his age and with two or three decades of experience.
Moreover, the Jedi have none of the training that a professional officer would receive. In the US military, Officer Training generally begins with 4 years of instruction at an Academy. West Point, Annapolis, or the Air Force Academy at Colorado Springs. From there, they then spend around 10 years moving from Second Lieutenant (equivalent) to Major (or equivalent), 10 years that also includes (at least in the Army) a 10-month course at the Command and General Staff Training College. And then it's about 12 years before you make it to Colonel (or equivalent). So before any officer even makes it to Flag rank (General or Admiral), they've been in the military for nearly 30 years, have gone through about 5 or 6 years of education, and have spent time commanding units as small as a few dozen men to as large as a few thousand, and (in order to be eligible to promotion to Flag Rank in the US) in command of personnel from multiple branches.
The Jedi have undergone none of that and so have none of the training or experience that a career soldier or sailor would have. What they do have is flashy space magic, a laser sword, and Zen Buddhist meditation training. Even worse, they have none of the support that a career soldier would have.
A proper General or Admiral as a staff to support them. Men and women who, through training and experience, are subject matter experts in specific fields: Personnel, Logistics, Communications, Intelligence, Plans, and Operations. These officers have staffs of their own, enabling them to provide their commander with a fully fleshed out plan, including personnel requirements, intelligence reports and analysis of enemy strength and dispositions, logistical availabilities and requirements, communications requirements and procedures, and necessary measures to be taken to ensure the enemy does not detect the offensive before it launches. But the Jedi have no staff. They do all of this themselves and it shows.
At the Second Battle of Geonosis, the Jedi lead a massive invasion. From what we see on screen, there are around a dozen different landing zones, deploying around 2 million combat troops. However, from what we are shown of the planning phase, the Jedi have no idea about the enemy defenses. The only person who brings up enemy defenses and dispositions is Ahsoka, who mentions a large fortification that is immediately brushed off by Anakin as something they won't need to worry about. Cody indicates that all forces will be at the landing zone at an exact time, giving no indication or expectation of resistance.
Unsurprisingly, this plan goes to hell immediately. Anakin's force is almost completely destroyed, with only about a single company remaining from an initial landing force of around 2,700 men. Ki Adi-Mundi, starting with a similar force, loses about half of it and is forced down miles from the landing zone. Only Kenobi's force makes it to the landing zone and still loses at least half its strength, with no ability to receive reinforcements or resupply due to heavy enemy air and ground fire. It is nothing short of a miracle that the Jedi were able to win that fight
In conclusion, not only do I find it unsurprising that the Jedi were despised as naval commanders, I find it an entirely justifiable stance, given the repeated tactical, operational, and strategic failings of the Jedi, brought on by a lack of training and experience combined with a focus on personal bravery and heroics. The Jedi as generals did not serve the war effort, only the interests of the Chancellor.
Very well put .RESPECT
@@kosmaspiratos6583 don't get me wrong. I love some of the Jedi. Obi-Wan, Anakin, Mace, Yoda, Ahsoka, Luminara. They're all fun and interesting characters and I enjoy watching them kick ass.
They just aren't great generals or admirals. But they would make fine Lieutenants.
Tarkin has a good point, why waste that many lives in favor of stupid actions that doesn't think about the larger picture?
The Jedi shouldn't have been put in such high positions just because they were Jedi, it even in the end took down the Jedi order as a while because of it.
Tarkin writing a memo roasting D Squad is comedy gold
I bet the clown show in the Empire was the result of Palpatine himself and his Death Star and to some extent Vader (putting his fleet in an asteroid field). With all the flaws Jedi had in commanding navies the Sith are even worse. If Jedi wanted to preserve their forces, Sith had no regard for losses whatsoever.
I never knew about this part of the Galatic Replublic. Very interesting and insightful.
Honestly though played into Palpatine's hands most of them had no qualms about killing the Jedi
Much of my family is former military, inexperienced or simply bad officers can cause massive problems, casualties, and setbacks, to many of those and the war is lost.
Some of the comments were right in point, re Jedi’s lack of experience on naval warfare which is very different from ground and air warfare. However, some other comments did not reflect an important factor in the dynamics of military leadership, which mostly becomes its downfall, the acquisition of power, especially, from officers who were related to the elites families, and gained higher ranks faster than others, probably due favoritism.
I would love to see a video about how the Imperial officers screwed up after the empire took over
The problem all comes down to a demilitarized republic suddenly gaining a elite army and having to adapt into war time after several centuries of peace.
Tarken had an ego, and if it wasn't stroked, he was bitter about it. He also wasn't the cleanest person either, as he was double dealing a bit, and he dang well knew the Jedi might catch him.
I think the Jedi should have been advisors or something like that to the navy generals or second in command cause they do have a point that the Jedi moral code would get in the way
It took me a while to realize the memo was referring to the driod squad arc of TCW.
It would be the puns they make.
Don't make my coffee in the dark side. LOL
"An unexperienced military tactician and a group of used droids" lol i remember those episodes
Would love to see some more content centered around the novels we all grew up with. So many good authors and stories being overlooked in favor of the clone wars era…
Maybe we could do a yuzhan vong series?
Agreed. I really do enjoy the channel's take on most things, but I would love for them to branch out from the CW. At least for a couple of videos a month if they didn't to do it too often. Some of their stuff can end up being/including rehashed/reworded parts of old videos with the CW focus.
Tradition is something that can both help, and hinder war strategies. It can hinder it by using outadated tactics that have very obvious weaknesses, and it can help by providing helpful insight on how to improve your strategy. But the best strategy is ultimately one that makes it impossible for the enemy to predict and counter. With every terrain and environment requires new strategies and tactics, and with different types and numbers of assets, so is the same. Ultimately, the best war strategy, is a flexible one, one that you can change and adapt to different environments and situations so you can keep your enemy on their toes trying to counter your strategy.
What is Palleon’s view on the Jedi since he also saw action during the clone wars and worked with the Jedi before
He had a clone wars book . Rex and ashoka. He was captain of an accenmenter, but fitted as missile cruiser, . ( concussion missiles) like a victory. . He was a bachelor and was sidelined, carer wise , because of a relationship with a republic intelligence agent. ( spy ) he liked rex and ashoka.
This reminds me of the very first episode of Clone Wars, when Ahsoka said she outranks Rex, just because she's Jedi. XD
I imagine most naval offices felt the same way Thel 'Vadam felt when the Prophet of Stewardship commandeered his fleet during the Battle of Installation 04.
Love these lore vids
I guess this fancy aristocrats (always the best choice for a naval officer, having the spoiled brat of a duke or a duchess in the bridge where he or she can do his or her will it's always the best strategy, specially when his or her career was payed by momy and daddy, that's always great lol) just forgett the republic of old, where the jedi where in charge of every single military asset during the war because jedi were able to sense the entire battlefield, boost allied morale and make the soldiers, officers, captains or even admiral's minds focus on one target and work with great cordination, imposible to achieve otherwise. I mean, the mandalorians even learn this and took profit of it by disrupting the jedi minds by commiting every war crime on the list.
Having a jedi commanding your troops, both in the ground and space, is like having a constant buff to focus and courage, so it's a great advantge. And the jedi tactics, while normally very risky and sometimes even crazy, created on the fly, are normally done becase they can "sense" the enemy, and know how to counter act their plans much better than any army inteligence. But I guess having a spoiled aristocrat born from a corrupt family in a position of undeserved power with tactics that were written in an era long forgotten against enemies that are no longer there is much better than that. Said by the man who lost the most powerfull space station and a whole fleet to a bunch of fighters because "we're not gonna retreat now, when we are so close to glory". A smart decision in deed.
I mean, Tarkin is still probably the most useless navy officer and one of the worst war criminal of the galaxy. The jedi are those who managed to delay, stop and and even counter and advance against separatist army with great disadvantge, who even managed to survive long enough and defeat the empire. You choose who you want to believe.
I think, it’s a little of both. I think he’s salty about being overshadowed and exaggerated the Jedis faults as generals to push his views.
It’s actually kind of obvious, as he never once mentions their numerous accomplishments in the war.
Random question that I’ve wondered for a while: do video games, tv, and the internet exist in Star Wars
sort of, there is the holonet wich is somewhere between tv and the internet, holovids is pure entertainment not sure about videogames
@@garyvincent7397well we know that holochess and holographic battle simulations are a thing, so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to classify them as videogames or at the very least assume that they would use similar technology to create something more alike.
@@flatheadgg2443 perhaps but in universe im not sure theres much demand for it, there might be other holovariants of boardgames but i doubt a large audience for videogames exist based on what we know of starwars and what its based on
Why would you need videogames other than training sims, when you can literally fly across the galaxy, fighting pirates and alien creatures, or being a scavenger, etc? Even Luke intended to get off the farm and join the empire for some adventure and presumably credits to go his own way after his service... I'm sure there were games, but they probably weren't very good compared to what you could actually do in real life, especially considering if your life sucked bad enough to benefit from videogames, you probably wouldn't have time for them, anyhow.
And then some Resistance officer completely chucks the hyperspace manual out the window.
I mean, had not a chronically nepotistic, ineffective and overtly brutal officer corps have been the alternative to the Jedi I think the Jedi should not have continued to be part of the military.
1:50 man is standing like he shidded his pants. Why was he drawn like that?
Considering Tarkin’s grand plan and hubris couldn’t successfully deal with the rebellion and basically was single handedly responsible for the fall of the empire, I’m not sure he’s got a lot of room to speak of others flaws.
Don’t throw rocks in a glass house.
Tarkin was a smug SOB right up until the Death Star blew up taking him with it.
"Ya know these people that we can make into groups of 5 and they could probably break any line and there wouldn't be any weird shifts in leadership and tactics when they leave for special missions?"
"Yup"
"Lets make them Generals"
"Brilliant!"
Haven’t watched the video yet. Just wanted to comment that thumbnail is HILARIOUS. You know that Jedi just suggested the most absurd plan ever and does not have the surname skywalker
Naval Officers: *hate being overshadowed and commanded by Force users.*
Vader: *laughs in Force Choke*
“Experience out ranks everything” Captain Rex
The clones on the thumbnail are just like "how many times do we have to tell you charging straight at the enemy doesn't work!"
Idk why but I found the phrase “legalized nepotism” humorous.
To me Tarkin literally feels like he is a Simp for Palpatine.
Tarkin: Yo Palps, the Jedi are whack. Demote them or something bro.
Palpatine: I get what you mean. But let me cook.
The problem with naval warfare is that you’re dealing with not just three dimensions but instead having to deal with four different directions in which an enemy can attack you from not just above but also from behind you as well as underneath you, or much like the malevolent where a single squadron of barely under manned Y wing bombers were able to deal significant damage to a ship as large and as capable as the malevolent which was capable of wiping out entire fleets if left unchecked and so even small fighters which posses hyperdrives is also another tool to be used as well as another problem to deal with, not to mention that for the majority of space, space outside of asteroid belts and planets is unfortunately mostly empty and so trying to fight an enemy that can clearly be seen and they can see you isn’t ideal, not to mention micro jumps in which an enemy can jump to a certain location giving the enemy a tactical advantage be it behind your formation or a wing of fighters jumping in very closely to your forces
as a kid, out of all the people in command of the Republic forces, I always liked Admiral Yularen.
He was the logical voice when Obi-Wan wasn't present, and if anything he was a lot smarter than the Jedi when it came to warfare.
Clearly his prowess was rightfully seen and his continued service in the empire (though upsetting) was well placed.
Its kind of sad to see that intelligent characters like that don't get the thought they deserve.
I will say tho, I think having a very impulsive 'What if we tried this' way of going about it could def work, Anakin always seemed to make it happen
It makes total sense. I mean in a ground battle I doubt anyone would say the jedi weren't worth dozens if not hundreds of soldiers. But the jedi were never trained to be generals of armies or even admirals. The soldiers who trained more for these positions knew better tactics and had more experience for these roles. So despite how fast a jedi could learn they would still be very behind the other high ranking soldiers who had years of experience and training. Ideally the jedi would have left the command to the officers and interfere when there is need but this structure would have been hard to maintain.
If i were a jedi i wouldn't mind getting a few pointers on how to better command a fleet from republic officers, well depending on the officers.