Your Armor Plates Don't Expire - Ballistic Armor Myths
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 ม.ค. 2022
- In this video, we show how your Armor Plates don't expire and other Ballistic Armor Myths thanks to a great article and post from Apex Armor Solutions.
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When you look at your plates, you may see the warranty period or shelf life and see times like 5 or 10 years. But you should be aware that those numbers don't mean the plates have somehow broken down or that they can no longer protect you from ballistic projectiles.
The dates listed on many plates are the warranty or liability period. So the marketing teams from armor plate companies would very much love it if you didn't understand what these numbers mean. This period, the shelf life, is the manufacturer's warranty period.
That means if the plate doesn't perform to specifications, the armor company could be held liable for damages in a court of law.
Another myth that cycles around a lot is that ceramic armor is basically sheets of glass. Even the slightest bump and they're totally worthless.
Well, this is a bunch of nonsense. And Apex Armor solutions actually shared a test in their post where old and damaged plates were tested to see what their capabilities were. Interestingly, the completely damaged plates still performed above specifications.
The last myth we wanted to touch on was more an understanding of what spalling is. When a round hits a steel plate, the round disintegrates and travels along the surfaces of the steel plate. The spall coating on the front is nominally important as the majority of the metal death whistles are headed towards the edge of the plate.
And this is why you see the spall coating fail on the sides first and basically fall off.
Ceramic plates work very differently as the design works to catch the round, instead of ricocheting the bits and projectile.
Hopefully, by seeing this video you've learned more about Ballistic armor and you don't have to worry about replacing your armor in 5 years.
(DISCLAIMER: This post may contain paid advertisements or affiliate links. An affiliate link means that if you follow one of the gear links, Thin Line Defense Co receives a small portion of that purchase but incurs no extra cost to you. This helps us make the channel grow and get more great gear to review just for you! Thanks for the amazing support.)
Music by: @Barren Gates - บันเทิง
I feel like a friend of mine who’s a chemist said it well enough. “How does your ceramic armor expire” (he was able to research all the materials n such) “well….. idk.” “How WOULD your ceramic armor expire?” “Break down?” “How’s your 50+ year old kitchen? That expiration date is just their warranty.”
To be fair you aren’t wearing your 50 year old kitchen and rolling around
Thank you so much for this video! I'm in EMA and our local PD graciously donated expired armor to us for an upcoming detail. Armor is new territory for me, so the articles online saying it isn't any good & all the people snubbing our donation had me nervous. This makes me feel more confident. Appreciated so much!
Thank you for this video. It has been long overdue, and I can only imagine the geniuses that allowed themselves to be swindled into buying new plates every five years because of an intentional and widespread misrepresentation. Bravo 👏
"Swindled"....best description ever regarding the industry-wide plate expiration facade.
A green screen? Of your own yard? Lol
hahahah yes!
I thought I was trippin
@@aubrey5569 lol it was like negative 10 for the last few weeks... I was like "well... I got a funny idea"
@@ThinLineDefenseCo I look forward to the future.
@@jadedclone6728 haha Sunday's video is more ridiculous
Your video is a God send! Bought some plates a few years ago, ended up upgrading one year ago and was starting to wonder what people do with "expired" plates. Plus I'm looking to sell the old ones to a coworker who asked the shelf life question. Was starting to worry I'd end up with a collection of plates. Bless you, and love the video!
Number 1 reason to wear only Level IV plates is that the US Military upgraded their standard 5.56 and 7.62 ammo to M855A1 and M80A1. Both of those at now available in the tens of millions of rounds and is widely available to all active duty units. Vast majority of the old “green tip” M855 has been either shot during annual training or sold off to allied militaries.
So if you are gonna buy armor for whatever crazy scenario that will last you a couple of decades you might as well get the armor that is able to stop AP ammo and take multiple hits.
I am a big fan of HESCO plates, they cost more but are built by a serious company that builds armor for US Mil and LEOs not some fly by night Instagram drop ship, Chinese rebrand, smoke and mirrors BS.
I never can keep up with it all. I have hesco 4401s but then got told they were junk... Got other plates... Got told those were no good lol
Good Point. Im watching from up here in Canada. Currently Running 3+ as M855 is common but M855A1 is illegal. And even when I served its was un heard of for the forces up here.
@@ThinLineDefenseCo HESCO had an issue with NIJ pulling the 4600s for a short period of time as there was some QA/QC issues but I think those got fixed.
@@Ion610 Well US military and very likely the Canadian military, have M855A1 and M80A1. So there is that.
@@robertdole5391 I recently left the CAF less then a year ago. Was Infantry before becoming a boarding party specialist in the Navy. We never had m855A1 most people dont even know what it is. We were only ever issued M855 in Infantry when deployed and navy only ever ran standard SS109. Im assuming CSOR and the rest of the special forces run it but thats about it. Up here the CAF is a poor joke.
This is great. I have a pair of Paraclete level IV SAPI stand alone plates I got in 2019. Got am email yesterday that the warranty was void. They have hung in a TYR GPC in the closet since I bought the set up because I hurt my back. Never used, never worn, never even bumped. Now I know I only need to replace them when I afford a lighter set. Thanks! Your videos are entertaining enough but there's also some great info.
I tried my hardest to convince my buddy not to buy steel. He was so sure that the spall coating will save him and because he wanted something “that will last”.
ugh haha next time point at his toilet and be like "you don't think your toilet is going to last??"
m.th-cam.com/video/aQ1gJoaA9tI/w-d-xo.html
Both spall, and Ceramic shatters.
Steel definitely has its place and so does Ceramic. Realize the military uses Ceramic because they can afford to just switch it out if it gets hit and it's lighter weighted for better mobility. For normal consumers if SHTF, I wouldn't just want Ceramics, I'd want both.
Spalling covers also exist which are replaceable for steel application.
Ceramic pots from thousands of years ago wouldn't exist if ceramic did turn to dust.
I'd run both because I can't afford sets on sets of ceramic for "just incase" lol.
Also food for thought, plain steel is No. No.
Steel with Double coated liners is 100% good paired with a Spall Liner.
Imagine the Ceramic test is 10lbs dropped at 4ft, twice. How would ceramic hold up if a 200lb man dove to prone haha.
Are you really comparing ceramic in armor to ceramic bathroom tiles? Completely 100% different. Ceramic armor does expire usually there good for like ten years. That’s why in the military you use shitty old plates as your training plates and you get good plates that pass inspection when you deploy.
@@RedForman22 Did you watch the video?
Wish I would have seen this sooner. Just got new plates as my old ones were 4 years and 364 days old.
Haha well now you can get a second carrier!!
-Walsh
Just gift your old ones to your kids or relatives.
I'm sorry, but this needs to be said- Bullet fragmentation is NOT the same thing as spalling. Spalling is the flying fragments of the object being shot coming out the back end.
no one likes the "semantics" guy.
you understood what was being said. Don't miss the forest for the trees.
@@ThinLineDefenseCo I mean if you're gonna be a smartass in a call out video you should expect people to call you out for being wrong in a video where you could have edited and reviewed every detail to seem as smart as you were acting. In reality none of this matters. You're gonna get clipped in the arm, hands, head, or legs just like the SOCOM boys do all the time with their fancy armor.
@@ThinLineDefenseCo Says the guy who made a video overviewing some redditor's essay on why you should buy his overpriced armor
These are the ages of the ballistic protection materials I'd be comfortable wearing:
PE backed plates: 10-15 years. It degrades by just sitting. Now, if you keep it in a cold place, I'd stretch to 15 years. If exposed to hot climate I'd be weary of extending past 10 years.
Kevlar backed plates: 25 years. Mostly the gluing compounds, but as they are not flexed they might last even longer. Even after that the kevlar fibers will keep stopping most fragments.
Steel plates: 50 years. More like the shelf life of the spalling protection and protective cover.
I'd say ceramic+kevlar plates (or ICW plates that don't use PE and backed by kevlar) are the best compromise. I have PE backed plates but next time I'm going with ceramic+kevlar for a lifetime ballistic protection.
For steel fans who really think the extra durability of the steel is needed, steel plates + IIIA front kevlar sleeve that folds around the edge of the plate is the best option, as I think it will catch all spalling and
very interesting, so who makes ceramic+kevlar plates? What did you go with? Thanks
I sold my steel plates years ago. Ceramic\poly all day for me... great video!!!! Makes so much sense
I wear mine for push-ups now
yea I just work out in my crud. Steel is awesome to throw in a lapg low viz carrier too...just throw it around and let it get ruined. It'll still do fine.
-Walsh
@@ThinLineDefenseCo Fellow cheapskate LAPG low vis carrier user?
@@Ironsight_Army Do pull ups too
Anti spall bag or wrap face past edges in kelvar n re linex......if you getting shot more than once to where plate starts to spall bullets you already f'd...ceramic nice to have but definitely do expire ..especially exposed to humidity n sunlight ...
It's just a marketing scheme, if spall coating has defects or chipping, peeling, just buy some raptor liner, or rattle cans of linex, or herculiner and respray the body armor if you have ar500 armor, and buy some spall guard blockers. The spall coating on steel body armor is just linex raptor liner, your typical truck bed liner you spray on your truck bed.
Your content is great. Definitely learn something today. Keep up the good work.
This is probably your best video ever. And I say that knowing full well that I love your "war belt" and plate carrier review videos. Keep putting out the amazing content
wow love it man, I really appreciate it!
-Walsh
If anyone dislikes this, they must hate saving money of body armor.
You are a redditor
I'd trust 25 year old ceramics (although, there could potentially be de-lamination) but UHMW-PE shelf life makes me nervous. I suspect it does degrade over time, but maybe not 5 years (unless extreme UV exposure).
How can it become exposed if its sealed from direct light not to mention its probably put away in a place within armor.
Just worry about heat. Stay below 60 d C.
Just now I tought about buying some body armor plates and remembered that they "Expire".
I was wondering what is expiring in them and looked for answers.
My gut knew something was fishy.
Thanks for the clarification.
I love your channel I just bumped into it and the presentation style is amazing 😂❤
Has to be my favorite video you have ever done
haha that says a lot, we have a lot of gems
I always thought plates expired because of the adhesives they use and Kevlar soft armor gets ruined by sweat water moisture bacteria growth but this video does make sense
I've always heard that too but it's nonsense. The glue doesn't stop bullets. The shell that holds the plates may get compromised faster but most plates are only rated for a few hits already.
-Walsh
Thank you for this video. So when should you replace ceramic plates? Do they still eventually expire?
the same time your bathtub would expire I would say.... if you maintain your plates they can last a lifetime
-Walsh
Loved the video and the satire you displayed, I was wanting to store ceramic body armor and a gas mask inside a vehicle for long term, is there any suggestions, any would be appreciated. I thought about a hard polymer lockable case, to at least secure them and keep some of the heat off of them.
ehhh just be careful with a car because it can get really really stupidly hot. I bet it would be okay but I store mine in the car for the gym and I'm even iffy about it and usually bring it in to a locker.
@@ThinLineDefenseCo I even thought if I stored it inside of a container, would it be cooler, but I can't find any information about the subject.
I have been arguing this forever, this is the most obvious marketing technique ever. Like so unbelievably obvious it hurts to think about how many people have been fooled by
Great video!! That’s why I upgraded to ceramic!
Because you're a redditor who listens to brand shills
The part that might expire is what holds the stuff together, there is more than ceramic on a ceramic plate piece of armor. That being said, to even begin to see any degrade in ballistic protection would take years of actively wearing said plates in less favorable environmental conditions. Civilians will NEVER get to that point unless you store the plate in stupidly bad conditions. The expiration date is irrelevant in practice.
Yea the glue adhesion may wear down but the impact on anything would be nominal. The test the military did was to shoot plates like 40 years old. And those old plates were cracked and busted up too. But, they worked just fine to catch the round.
The expiration date is just for a warranty. And that really only applies to departments and DoD entities for liability.
-Walsh
@@ThinLineDefenseCowhere the video? Ceramics definently become brittle in Armor form.
I love this video, Thanks. You mentioned many materials. Do lAPG level 4 plates being PE+Alumina (AL2O3) also last longer than 5 years?
I think their "warranty" is 5 years, but the plate isn't gonna turn into a pumpkin at 5 years and 1 day. We took old police soft body armor from the 90s out to the range and shot it up. It still stopped all of the 9mm we threw at it that day
- Jason
Great content!
Thanks for watching and commenting.
I had fun with this one lol
-Walsh
I really enjoy your funny and clever moderation style 👍
So what about Kevlar? Can you give the same attention addressing Kevlar? Thanks & great video btw!
I know its off topic but, Where did you get the patches made that are on your plate carrier? the ones that say wizzard and lev 22. I like the multicam with the red letters! I wanted to get some made with different words on them.. thanks Walsh love your videos!
They are from a Canadian Company called Patch Panel
We actually just learned of an American Company that does similar patches, Tactical Gear Junkies
I'm going to order from both and compare them
- Not Jason
@@ThinLineDefenseCo I have been using Patch Panel for several years. They make great, quality patches; many options.
Yes they do, eventually. But it takes a loooong time. And even expired plates are a multitude better than flexing your abs and taking the hit on character...
Thanks I learned a lot
I can’t see a ceramic plate being able to take a round but be glass fragile.
Thank you.
(QUESTION) is that the same for soft armor? 3a if worn everyday
You remind me of a lot of some of my family . Great video confirmed my suspicions. Thanks .
well lol besides your obviously broken caps Lock, you're also wrong.
Not Marines.... Aim.... Higher instead lol
-Walsh
@@ThinLineDefenseCo I stand corrected . Maybe it's the mannerisms . Regardless I still subscribed and liked . Oh and caps lock isn't broken it' spilled beer l makes it stick sometimes . That's my story and I'm sticking to it .
hahah well they're still good folks and I certainly don't take it offensively. But! Big thanks for subscribing and joining our little family here. Let me know if you need anything or have stuff you've been wanting to see
-Walsh
Sorry to hear you're related to condescending snobs with small dick syndrome
Hey, thanks you a lot 👍
THANKS SO MUCH; May I ask whats THE BEST plates 11x14 for a budget of $200-300, just a family man trying my best.
for both plates or one? And what threat level you need? III, III+, or IV?
-Walsh
@@ThinLineDefenseCo sorry I didn’t clarify, Level IV And max budget upped to $550 preferably for Two plates
Hey I liked your vid. I was wondering if you could test some ar-500 plates in conjunction with a spalling liner. I would watch it.
we could but here's what happens. The spall travels along the length of the plates and destroys the liner in 2-3 shots. After that all the metal sprays out the side.
So....not so great.
-Walsh
@@ThinLineDefenseCo AR500 isn't the only kind of steel armor
Honestly general rule of thumb with any body armor it's technically compromised after 1 to 3 hits. That's what they say it's good for, and your plate carrier is compromised too that's why you have mags backup mags and gear on a war belt.
Would you recommend FRAS armor over ceramic? And does FRAS armor expire or no
You'd be packing a hell of a lot of weight with that configuration.
Good video man
Internet Cheese Missles!!!
Green screening yourself outside is genius.
It's
so
damn
cold!
... you are green screened right?
Haha I am.... And it's absolutely freezing outside
Awesome 👏
Bro... you seem to be watching and commenting on everything. That's awesome to give us such great support!
I appreciate it
-Walsh
Yes. Agreed.
I died at internet cheese missile😂
Does soft armor expire?
I was skeptical about these claims. I know pneumatic tanks expires but that mostly because of constant pressure and release.
it's rarely the tank. It's usually the valve
*me silently watching a viddie while in my kit.
I own both steel and ceramic so I’m unbiased. You seem to negate how the wearer will be impacted against blunt force impact. Steel with a trauma pad will mitigate blunt force impact better than ceramic, keeping you on the move and not writhing in pain when wearing ceramic.
uhh sure...and killing your teammates in the process.
@@ThinLineDefenseCo come on, you have no evidence that it will “kill your teammates”. What happened to sticking to “actual and accurate information” you presented in your video, which was good by the way.
@@ThinLineDefenseCo Pfff. No comment? You’ve just been Unsubscribed. You’re no different from the same nonsensical “google degree” expert you’re criticizing about..and smart approach (sarcasm) in gaining subscribers by being a smart ass with your own viewers comments 👍
what haha where does the bullet go? It just goes into magic land?
good grief
@@ThinLineDefenseCo To be fair, if we assume it was nice and neat as the slomo, we're talking for example a 64 grain projectile being evenly split up and distributed across 180 degrees with less than 1/8 the velocity the original bullet had (a 90 degree angle change robs a massive amount of velocity) you get around 0.8 grain sized projectiles which is approximately 4x the weight of a single grain of sand. Again, perfect world and all that but in that scenario, what does get through is going to sting but isn't life threatening and would leave a red rash. By the time it gets anywhere near any of your buddies, the velocity will be drastically reduced due to how tiny the particles are so it probably won't even penetrate their clothing but would be a greater danger to their eyes.
The bigger worry would actually be the jacket as that often does not come off all nice and neat, especially if it's a specially bonded jacket using an alloy like a lot of the Russian stuff that use a steel/copper alloy. F that. When you watch videos of fragmentation on steel plates, it's actually the pieces of jacket that pose the real risk, not the lead core inside. If you look at the slomo, the uneven jagged pieces are the jacket fragmenting randomly in chunks outward and that's what you see often does the most damage to the dummies people setup around the impact area.
Could putting soft armor on top of steel armor reduce the effects of spalling? Could be an interesting test?
No, the spalling happens on the steel. Steel doesn't catch a round, it deflects it. So yes you could get it to work....by not using steel.
And if the soft armor already stopped the round...then why would you need the steel? Regardless, steel is a bad choice.
-Walsh
@@ThinLineDefenseCo would the soft armor stop a 5.56 out of a 20” barrel though? It might slow it down just enough and then catch the fragmentation? And I’m asking as someone who bought steel long ago when ceramic was ungodly expensive, and still balling on a budget. I am in agreement that steel is not a good choice anymore, but for those of us who have steel from the past.
Ar500 has awesome steel plates with heavy spall coating that prevents it completely. Do your research before you buy
@@rsm1161 truck bedliner does not stop spalling past MAYBE a round
@@ThinLineDefenseCo There are several ways to prevent spalling on steel, you smoothbrain
So do people actually throw away body armor after 5 years? Send it to me instead.
what about exposure to water? maybe not dunking them thangs but say if you spill some water on you carrier and then forgot about days later? or a plate going from hot to a cold area and moisture buildup? I understand about armor taking impact but if you hard bumping or dropping the plate? or a fully-loaded carrier takes a dive off the table?
Take a look at your toilet and think the same thing. Water is fine. It may break down the glues at some point but not the ceramics or fabrics. Kevlar is continually exposed to sweat.
A hard bump or fall could potentially damage the ceramics....because it's ceramic. BUT!! part of the NIJ testing is to drop it 3 times from head height directly on the plates THEN shoot it.
So while it can have cracks, it doesn't mean it won't stop rounds.
“Internet cheese missiles” HAHAHA LOVE THAT
Don't have a whole lot of time to gi ish the vid so if this is covered my bad. So hard armor CAN expire but not in just 5 years on being in a closet. The adhesive keeping the ceramic places and all the other layers inside can deteriorate which can lead to less ballistic effectiveness. It has tell tale signs though that you can see if you check it. Soft armor I.E kevlar DOES expire. Through normal use wear and tear and getting sweaty then dry again the tightly woven kevlar will expand and contract over a period of time where it will eventually coke apart or at least not be as tightly woven as before that can lead to less performance as well. Though only 5 years per manufacture warranty are typically not long enough for average armor to deteriorate
haha i love it "punch yourself" haha lol. I always knew the the date on plates was bullshit!
Where did you get the patches made that are on your plate carrier? the ones that say wizzard and lev 22. I like the multicam with the red letters! I wanted to get some made with different words on them.. thanks Walsh love your videos!
@@420420420420moeller not sure if you saw the reply from Not Jason.
I got those from Patch panel. I just made em custom in their little tool.
Thanks for the kind words and for watching!
-Walsh
Now does soft Kevlar armor degrade over time? Even if it’s not exposed to uv or moisture?
I highly doubt it... That stuff does not break down. It's the warranty that runs out.
@@ThinLineDefenseCo Apreciate it.
@@ThinLineDefenseCo Exactly, I worked in the armor industry for about 5 years. The warranty is what expires, not the product. The armor is not milk, it’s not bad in 5 years and a day….it’s like your cars 3 year/36,000 mile warranty. The car did not go bad at 3 years and a day or at 36,001 miles….just the warranty. I could take a ten year old piece of armor that has been properly cared for with normal wear and tear and it would still perform within NIJ spec. Conversely, I could pull a brand new panel off the line and within a couple of hours make it fail.
Soft armor does fray the more it is bent around. This largely depends on how your soft armor is used. Concealed soft armor undergoes the most stress because it constantly bends. Soft armor plates will last forever. Resin soaked like fiberglass armor and such don't wear because the resin keeps the fibers locked but it is not flexible.
My mind is screaming from all this common sense! It’s too much. My agency can’t be wrong…. Right?
Set ballistics gel several inches from a steel plate in a carrier and shoot it once or twice-a realistic scenario. Ceramic armor would shred a paper box also in that same test set up
This scares me that you're thinking this is correct. You're telling me ceramic bits from a plate are the same as metal shrapnel from a bullet?
I'd recommend talking less until you're smarter. Not being a dick but... seriously.
-Walsh
Ceramic shards feel like a bee sting....much less dangerous than steel/lead.
I've seen ceramic shards tear through a plate carrier, so keep telling yourself that
What about polyurethane? Does it have a problem with Spalling too? You only covered steel vs ceramic mostly.
no, because poly also catches the round. steel defects it.
@@ThinLineDefenseCo Thanks.
So I'll use poly or ceramic on my body and I'll use steel in a book bag as a shield in front of me 😉.
Lol That's a no brainer. We've taken soft armor panels that were 20 years old and had been sitting out in the sun and rain, shot them and discovered they functioned just fine. This is to not say that Soft panels will ever fail. I just adding that we shot some panels with Ball and duty ammo and they still worked.
My plates are boron carbide . I dont think they will be cracking any time soon . Or degrading for that matter .
I want to believe this for polyethylene plates as well
i bought lvl4 lapg ceramic def cheaper ones but id rather them than steel any day
thx bud your the man !
I know the AR500 armor company also props up alot of disproven ceramic myths to help sell their AR500 Steel armor.
(Gasp!)...say it ain't so!
- Jason
Agreed on all but ceramic fragmentation is a real thing and easily shown with a cardboard box as well. Uhdmpe is probably the best but it does actually chemically degrade with time and environmental factora
yes, ceramic shards are expelled as a result of the impact. But not metal shards. Plus the metal shards travel along the face of the plate while the ceramic shards follow newtons 3rd law... so the ceramic goes in the direction of the bullet impact.
so yes... but no.... thanks to physics
-Walsh
the Ceramic Fragmentation isn't a decelerated fragment of a 2800 fps projectile......
It's a recommended shelf life based on assumed use cases. IF you train in that armor, it's POSSIBLE that it's developed fractures large and small and it COULD POTENTIALLY compromise the plate. Thus it is RECOMMENDED that you don't continue to run plates that have been in service during that prolonged period of continued battering and real world training. But of course, for most civilians, that does not really apply.
actually no. As mentioned in the video, the army tested damaged and 15 year expired plates and they still performed above spec.
-Walsh
@@ThinLineDefenseCo Not even going to argue this moot point. We live in the digital age where anyone and everyone can witness with their own two eyeballs how ceramic armor options perform from perfect condition to compromised plates. Armor performance is documented fairly regularly all over the internet, this isn't US Army research lab unobtainium information.
so you're arguing to agree with me?
okay. have a great day and you're wonderful?
What about polymer?
I really enjoyed the video. I have a potentially dumb question though. LEO and MIL have worn and been shot in their steel plates for decades. I feel like you don’t see thousands of former LEO/MIL with spalling scars. I am not well versed in body armory but I feel like “spalling” came on the scene in a big way about 10 years ago. Does it happen? Yes. Of course. But is it as bad as the TH-camrs say? We still have LEO/MIL wearing steel today. Has it always been a problem? I ask out of curiosity, not for the sake of argument.
Not really sure about that. I was in the military for 11 years and have been in Law Enforcement for 12 years now. I've never been issued steel plates. Almost any steel plate review on TH-cam (including the one Joe did for us) shows the effect of spalling. Is it deadly? I can't say for sure. Would it hurt to be hit by shrapnel? Yep
- Not Jason
@@ThinLineDefenseCo thanks for the response! I appreciate the feedback and perspective. Guess I need to call Hesco today. Haha!
@@ThinLineDefenseCo No First World modern army uses steel armor. I'm not aware of any LEO using it, although it's possible that agencies with very poor budgets might be.
Lets back off and approach this topic from first principles.
What materials, that are used in modern ballistic protection, have a potential for going bad... or "expiring"?
Glues and binders: If the armor uses extensive amount of organic based binders for, lets say, tiles adhesion or laminate layer adhesion. There is potential that it may not preform as well as it would if new.
Aramid fibers and other polymer based ballistic elements: Synthetic fibers will go bad over time when exposed to oxygen, moisture and light. For example, untreated Kevlar is very sensitive to UV degradation while some plastics that require plasticizers to preform to spec degrade as the usually more reactive compound breaks down.
Will this all mean that your 15 year old ballistic plate carrier and cheremic plate composite will go bad after 15 years if it was stored at your dry, cool closet even if it have seen some desert deployments and few camping trips? Unlikely.
Will I trust my life similar, composite item, if it was improperly stored in moist, damp and moldy enjoinment or in some hot attic while getting direct sunlight for 30% of that time? No.
What about soft armor?
no, most of that is kevlar or some crazy fabric. It doesn't degrade unless you're totally crazy with it
-Walsh
True but the manufacturer will no longer guarantee the product past the date. They do that so they will not be held liable if the material begins to fail.
Correct. It's more how long the insurance premium they have...will cover the plate.
armor insurance doesn't really matter because if the armor fails... you're dead.
@@DaveSmith-cp5kj The point is the litigation that the manufacturers will face so they are trying to protect themselves.
Just gonna say this quickly the only armor you really need to worry about is ballistic weave and that's really more a taking care of it than an age thing if you're not pulling it apart it will last ages
Though my testing was with russian equipment so take that for what it's worth
Yeah, the number one thing that causes degradation in polymers is sunlight. I so if you’re polyethylene or aramid fiber plates are degrading because of sunlight, why? Why do you have them out in the sunlight? Especially for the amount of time that it would take for the UV rays to degrade the polymers.
I knew a guy who got some expired plates from a law-enforcement entity for stupid cheap. I’m not sure how legit the purchase was, because he was real Squirrley about hooking anyone else up for the same deal. However, he got a lot of shit from some guys for running with expired plates. Especially plates he didn’t know the history of. I thought it was funny because a lot of those guys weren’t running plates at all. At least he had some sort of protection. He was the first guy I ever heard talk about the warranty issue, and how that’s what the expiration date was for.
Hah I think I'd be more comfortable with expired plates .. if I knew what they were.
Maybe not ones from the Marines though.... I'd have assume someone chewed on them...Lol
-Walsh
We use PE for new gas mains. Can’t be in the sun in one of the construction yards for more than two years. But once installed underground, it’s rated for over 50 years. So I’d imagine with the wrapping on PE plates and being in a carrier, they should last a while. I never bought the 5 year timeframe stated by the manf
"I'm not biased but here's the website I'm upselling"
who? the guys who I credited for the information I stole?
watch out guys....we have a real detective here lol
-Walsh
@@ThinLineDefenseCo @Thin Line Defense Co I'd like to see some spall tests with plates in a spall cover placed into a carrier the way they are actially worn and not just a bullet shot at a steel plate which is obviously going to spall same a steel target does like many of these youtubers with negative opinions toward it do. There are videos here on TH-cam that show the spall at a minimum if any when used properly. I'm a ceramics guy because A) lighter and thinner and B) once you buy good steel and spall protection you myswell have bought ceramic plates. Carriers actually catch some of the spall themselves. Not trying to argue on your video just putting down my opinion, I know its not a very popular one, and chances are I'd your taking rounds to the chest with either your out if the fight
we actually did that with the lapg lvl IV armor test and the spall just destroyed the carrier. It was crazy how shredded it got. I certainly wasn't expecting that.
-Walsh
I am gonna take a contrarian position here and say that there IS a place for steel armor. Allow me too explain.
Many militaries (e.g. Soviet, Russian and Chinese) have used steel plate armor for decades. It is cheap, simple, damn near indestructible in normal use and stops the vast majority of lead core rifle ammo.
So if a civilian sees a breakdown to the rule of law, riots or if zombies walk the earth and you now find yourself needing to outfit a few neighbors, steel may be the solution.
Hell what else are you gonna do with that Mosin or SKS in the back of the gun safe, those extra ammo pouches, and old plate carrier?
Sure quality ceramic plates are getting less expensive each year and one day soon will fill this role, but having a few cheap backup plates to outfit others in an emergency ain’t gonna hurt. Right now steel fits that bill best/cheapest.
Ceramic for me, Steel for thee.
I think that's why we talk 20" barrels too.
It's a smart solution if a nation decides to go the cheap route lol
-Walsh
Agreed. Plus I use steel for airsoft and force on force training, things people need to do more than even live firing at the range.
Will soft armor expire or not?
kevlar? It would take a few hundred years for sure.
ShotStop is my go to for plates. GT2's are the bees knees.
I mean you can just get a spall liner for steel plates.
This is like wearing boxers over your G-string....
I believe I’ve seen enough videos with the spall liner working after multiple hits. It either works or it doesn’t so what’s wrong with wearing boxers over G string
another thing is steel is generally lvl 3
You know the best part of warranty for armor plates?!
If someone's need to use the warranty they will probably be dead and wouldn't be able to😂😂😂😂
hahah well...if it's expired you may not have to worry about it
What if a company actually made armor that did stop working exactly 5 years after you bought it? Like when you got shot it literally let you die. That is like a dystopian future movie. So you have to buy new armor every 5 years and prices keep going up and if you don't get it you will die.
Nice shirt 👕
NO ONE should be buying steel armor with a company like RMA around. You can literally get a set of 2 ceramic plates for 200 bucks.
Some of us don't guzzle soy for breakfast
Those lamination parts will fail in areas with extreme heat like here in Texas. But that doesn't apply to most people and not likely in the five years unless you never brought them inside.
Navy Baby!!!!
Mai werks sighted page!!!
But how are companies gonna make more money?
Whelp... Just buy more carriers... Then you need more plates lol
Appreciate you watching and then fun comments
-Walsh
I was just talking about this a few weeks ago. I even made the same point about the bathroom. Besides, how many of us in these professions have seen old, wrecked, way out of date body armor get shot a bunch of times, and perform exactly as it should? Do people really get angry at the idea of not having to pay large sums of money every 5 years? Wait until they find out about the large study that found almost no dry meds truly expire. Most of them will lose a small percentage of potency, but they don't become poison. Liquid and meds already suspended (such as IV fluids) actually do expire. Hell, take a look at your H&H Tac Gauze if you have any. They no longer even have a exp date printed on the package. Still vacuum sealed? Then it's fine.
But I demand to buy expensive things when it's unnecessary. Haha. Go for it.
Dude ceramic bathroom tiles are completely different than the ceramic used for armor. Most armor is good for like ten years, you know because you sweat on it or get it wet, or actually use it. That’s why the military rotates the old plates to training and you get new ones that are not old as fuck. Sure they will stop a bullet but the shit is expired. I have 12 year old e Sapis right now that need to be turned in because there going to be training plates
The medication argument is not a very good argument to make. Many of those "dry meds" are NOT chemically stable when exposed to oxygen or UV radiation and heat. Nearly all common pain killers break down into other components. The most common break down into esters that are the equivalent to vinegar. You lose effectiveness as the vinegar does nothing beneficial for you. This gets difficult though because you don't know the proper ratio of degradation which ends up leading to dosage errors and potential overdoses.
As to the ceramic tiles, this is again a question of where that tire is taking that force. The face of a tile is designed to take the load/impact. Stand that tile on its edge and even lightly strike it with a hammer and watch it split into pieces. This is also a question of supported and unsupported. What breaks ceramics the most is flexing. Since they are extremely brittle materials, if they flex even a little bit, they go straight to breaking. A tile on the floor is prevented from flexing by the ground under it which prevents the tile from flexing. You can punch and pound on a tile that's properly laid on the ground and you won't break or crack it. Suspend that tile just by the corners and edges and you can punch right through it.
@@Talishar That isn't what the study found at all. Have you actually read it, or is your argument "The FDA was wrong. Trust me dude"?
Sure, if you take the armor apart and hit the edges of the ceramic with a hammer, it will break. If I open gauze and cut them to tiny pieces with scissors, they aren't useful gauze anymore.
If you torque test the armor and find it isn't broken, you're good to go. There isn't actually a need to X-ray them for small fractures, as another longterm study should conclusively, they still perform well above 100% of their rating. They don't expire on their own. Certainly not in 5 years. Yes, on a long enough time line, they, and everything else will.
No one is telling you that you can't replace your plates every 5 years, every year, or after each day like a shirt. We're simply saying it isn't necessary. If that bothers you so much, go argue with the scientist about. Arguing with me is going to accomplish nothing. Same goes for the soldier above. I just saw that comment, but you're both saying the same thing anyway. If you break the ceramic, it's now broken. Agreed. That wasn't the argument.
Have a good day.
@@bewbew0016 You're the one that apparently didn't actually read any of the studies on medication. What I said about painkillers for example is a known thing for years now. It gets trickier when we talk about other meds as those can have much different constituent chemicals that they were made from or react and change into wholly different chemicals which could potentially be very dangerous. You gave a ridiculous oversimplification of the study which I can bet isn't actually what the study truly said.
The same is true for the ceramics. The ceramics for armor are a composite that are laid and set to receive energy in a very specific direction. That's what the example about the tiles are. You don't even have to wind up to hit a floor tile hard at all. The tiny tap from a hammer is far less force than what you can do when it's laying on the ground. That's why people in demonstrative martial arts use tiles to "break" in their demonstrations. They're a theoretically strong material that's very easy to break when you know how to specifically break them.
@@Talishar You just said you didn't read the study, but don't believe my generalization of the conclusion because it conflicts with your current understanding. Yes, it was simplified, but did it change what the findings were? No. Is medication an exact 1:1 example when compared to ceramic? No, and I think you know that, but you choose to play dumb when it benefits you.
What does telling me ceramic is designed to take impact in one direction, but not another, have to do with it expiring due to time? And, isn't that an oversimplification of the very complex physics involved body armor and terminal ballistics? Hahaha.
Again, I'm well aware of this, but it has nothing to do with time. Are you aware that if you take cheap ceramic floor tiles and combine them with a backing of PE or Kevlar, (essentially replacing ceramic for armor, with ceramic from a floor), it can stop rifle threats, including special threats, like M193 and M855?
I know. Not if you hit them from the side or not if you break the ceramic to tiny pieces first. These are all arguments akin to saying rifle plates don't work because you can be hit in the face.
Okay, I think that's all the time I'm willing to give you. The beginning of your last comment told me this is a waste of time. This probably won't be of any benefit to you whatsoever, but trying to use outliers to make an argument against what is most common, is a bad argument. There are some (but not most by any means) dry medications which do expire for a variety of reasons. There are some (but not most by any means, once again) people who are born with 9 fingers, but it's a bad argument to say that humans don't have 10 fingers because of this fact. I get it though. It's like second hand smoke not being especially harmful. You were told it was. There were manipulated studies (admitted by the people responsible for the studies) that showed it was. It seems perfectly logical that it would be particularly harmful. But it's not. Some things are just counterintuitive, or go against what you and I have been told for a very long time.
So, believe it or don't. Again, don't just take my word for it. Go read the study on expired medications conducted for DoD by the FDA. Go read the studies on fractured ceramic armor, and how all of it (including very old "expired" armor) performed at a minimum of 115% and 110% respectively (if my memory serves). This was between micro fractures and complete fractures of monolithic strikefaces. Gauze doesn't expire. I would personally include Combat Guaze in that list. If you still reject all of that, I honestly don't care. You certainly can. If you have better evidence which can show me these studies were flawed and invalid, I'm open to it. You're just wanting me to join you in rejecting these conclusions, and I'm not sure why. If they are wrong, you have to do better than just saying "I just don't buy it" if you want me to agree with you.
Okay, that's even more time than I wanted to spend, but I figured I'd leave you with some food for thought. I'll give you the last word here and won't respond to or refute whatever you say. Just to be fair about this. If I were you, I'd go actually check out these studies in order to come back here and just crush me. But if you did that, you'd just end up agreeing with me. 😉 haha.
Take care, Talishar
I like the JB background.
hahah I made work
-Walsh
Plates don't "expire" per day however improper storage of your armor cause it to degrade from excessive heat or cold. "Expiration dates" on armor is just a legal loophole to shield the manufacturer from liability if say bubba has been mishandling his armor for 10 years and surprise surprise the armor has developed cracks over time from abuse and bubba gets shot and dies.
Stored in cool dry dark place....closet.
Great vid. We all intuitively knew this but were pummeled with the narrative. Thanks for going against the grain. I think the military beat some of that narrative into us too. By the way, when that stupid light goes off on your fridge saying change the water filter, you don't need to do that either.
0:28 is it sig p320 M18 or?
p320. Grey ghost precision carry slide and x-carry grip
@@ThinLineDefenseCo thanks and that white and grey pattern is you own or?(Awesome build)
You mean those 2,000 year old ceramic tiles in the mosaics of Pompeii are still good? Wow. We should make ballistic plates out of ceramic.
I feel like the lesson was an airplane and you watched it fly over you... and then you typed this comment.
And now my brain hurts.
-Walsh
Plate manufacturers are going to be fuming at this video lol
What about steel plates with a quarter inch of coating to catch spalling?
they'll last plenty long but that spall coating is about useless
Your plates don't expire but your warranty does
are you repeating what I said for emphasis or because you didn't watch it?
-Walsh
@@ThinLineDefenseCo i saw the whole thing
If your plate fails you got better things to worry about than a warranty.
I mean ceramic is often used in applications where the highest possible heat and/or wear resistance may be necessary. Hell, it was what NASA used on the hull of space shuttles and re-entry vehicles to prevent them from being incinerated upon entering the earth's atmosphere. It's crazy strong stuff, and it does NOT fucking "degrade", at least not over the course of 5 to 10 years or even 20 to 30 years for that matter. You really don't need to be concerned for at least the next couple centuries to be honest, not unless you regularly take a hammer to your plates or some goofy shit like that.