CFII checkride in 2 weeks! Thank you, I love the FAA reference backup and clarification on something that is so important, but oftentimes so confusing in instrument flying.
Very helpful, coach. As I prepare for my IFR checkride, I am so thankful for your videos, Seth. And once i am certified IFR, I will continue to review them to be a safer pilot.
I listened to you during my Private training and now during my Instrument training. Thank you so much for your videos. The thorough explanations makes things easier to remember and fully understand.
In prepping for my “Double I “ ride 25 years AFTER my CFI ride, it must be said that I find every single one of your videos to be INCREDIBLY important to learning (and relearning) about the countless technical nuisances of IFR flying. Thank you for all the valuable information you contribute here and on yours and others podcasts, it helps us all become better and safer pilots.
Interestingly the vcoa climb method is used in some part of the world where they are not GA friendly and don’t want little piston planes wandering around in low altitude
Hey Seth, just for clarification on the first example with the 24% OCS. The obstacle for the example was 0.74nm from DER, which got us a climb gradient of 489ft/nm. Does this mean exactly 489ft/nm from the DER? Because after applying the 24% rule we are supposed to be clearing the obstacle by 117ft which we would only get to after a mile of climbing at 489ft/nm from DER, but the obstacle is 0.74nm from DER... so wouldn't we cross over the obstacle lower than 117ft assuming we didn't take off until close to or exactly at DER theoretically? Does this mean we would need to take off the much sooner than DER to be able to cross it at least 117ft above? Is there a way they calculate this distance to takeoff prior to the DER? I might be misunderstanding something there... Thanks, your videos have been very helpful!
Mehn! I don’t watch movies that in form of series but I enjoy watching your videos! I watch one after the other, good stuff man! Im waiting on my FTSA to alllow me begin my training for PPL
4:35 isn't the plane started from 35' above the departure end of the runway and not the actually surface of the runway? That's how we do it in Canada at least.
Great point! In the US some of the obstacle clearance services start at the surface and others start at 35 ft. The most conservative outlook is to assume the surface starts at zero feet.
Hey Seth.....maybe a dumb question but was looking at the PAPI GA for RWY 25 at KRUE in the A/FD 4 degrees, the RNAV 25 is 3 degrees. I know sometimes these differ but this seemed a lot. Obviously there are controlling obstacles on that approach and there is the note on the plate that warns that the 34:1 is not clear on the visual segment. Why such a difference in the GA, what am I missing?
So if departing a pilot controlled airport, IFR, that has a ODP, clearance delivery will not read the ODP back to me as part of my clearance but when I read back the clearance I should say “following the ODP” and then read back the rest of the clearance?
According to the 7110.65W pg. 4-3-1 (this document prescribes air traffic control procedures and standard phraseology) it says for controllers to: "Where an obstacle departure procedure (ODP) has been published for a location and pilot compliance is necessary to ensure separation, include the procedure as part of the ATC clearance." However, in my experience they normally do not include the ODP in the clearance. If you think you need to follow the ODP, I would readback "request to depart via the ODP" along with the rest of the clearance you were given. I'm sure at airports with graphical ODPs and much higher terrain, the ODP is given in the clearance. The reason the textual ODPs get left out is they are often not needed since the weather is well above the minimum required ceiling and you can easily see and avoid terrain on the departure. Hope this answers your question!
@@SethLakeDPE Former ATC here, currently teaching a college TERPS course. Some clarification: You do not need to request an ODP (unless you were assigned a different DP that you do not want to fly), but it's a good idea to let ATC know you intend to fly one. Your reasoning is in the ballpark. There are two main reasons ATC doesn't generally assign non-SID DPs. For starters, and this is the one you zeroed in on, is that they're not the ones who are familiar with the weather at the airport. Their information is only as good as the computer generated weather updates they've received. And while it stands to reason that if it's clear and a million for hundreds of miles, you, as the pilot, are the person responsible for judging whether you can adequately see and remain clear of the terrain. Hence the reason you can pick any (legal) manner of getting yourself up to to the MEA on departure: VFR climb, DP, VCOA. The other reason is that ATC is already protecting the DP's area, whether or not you use it. Aircraft performance, pilot ability, runway selection, winds, and many other factors influence where your aircraft will be between the airport and the point where you join the en route environment -- and that's before getting to a DP. Because of that, the area protected for an IFR departure from an untowered field is broader than I think most pilots realize. Whether or not you fly it is essentially irrelevant to ATC, because they need to protect the area either way. I'll add a condition here, because like a lot of other aspects of aviation, there are some exceptions. At some untowered fields, with radar to the ground and relatively low / simple MEAs, ATC may assign ODPs in other to expedite a departure's entry into the en route environment (which is why the .65 quote you chose is written the way it is, "necessary to ensure separation"). I have not worked traffic in any facility that did this, so I can't give any examples, but it could potentially reduce the protected area from "just cover everything" to "just cover a reasonable area around the airport and the path of the DP". Keep up with the videos. TERPS is a dense subject to cover, and yours is literally the only video I found taking it on in any substantial manner. Nice work. Edit to add: Speaking of exceptions to rules. I said at the beginning you don't need to request an ODP. This is almost always the case, but a few do require it, which is indicated in the DP notes. VCOA procedures, like the one mentioned around 18:33, are among them.
@@Rosstafari Wow! Thank you so much for the detailed response. I would love to chat with you sometime about this if you have some time. Can you friend me on FB and send me a message? I would really like to do more videos on this in the future and need some tutoring from someone like yourself. Thank you again for taking the time to provide such great feedback!
@@SethLakeDPE You got it, friend invite inbound. Sorry I didn’t see this till now. Though I suspect you may end up being the one teaching me; your videos are really well done.
50' Obstacle discussion: 21:54
Those videos are underrated. Thank you so much!! Better than my $299 online ground school.
Thanks!
@@SethLakeDPE I passed my instrument check-ride with flying colors! shortly after I posted the above comment
Thanks again!
You are adding a LOT of value to the GA world. That was fantastic! Rock solid quotes, backed up by math and official publications. Thank you!
So much thanks for the kind words! Glad you found it helpful!
CFII checkride in 2 weeks! Thank you, I love the FAA reference backup and clarification on something that is so important, but oftentimes so confusing in instrument flying.
Great! How did it go?
Very helpful, coach. As I prepare for my IFR checkride, I am so thankful for your videos, Seth. And once i am certified IFR, I will continue to review them to be a safer pilot.
Thank you for your continued support and feedback! Best of luck with your IFR training!
Thanks!
شكرًا ,Thanks
Thank you!
I listened to you during my Private training and now during my Instrument training. Thank you so much for your videos. The thorough explanations makes things easier to remember and fully understand.
You're welcome!
Brilliant work
In prepping for my “Double I “ ride 25 years AFTER my CFI ride, it must be said that I find every single one of your videos to be INCREDIBLY important to learning (and relearning) about the countless technical nuisances of IFR flying. Thank you for all the valuable information you contribute here and on yours and others podcasts, it helps us all become better and safer pilots.
Thanks you so much for the kind words! I’m glad you find the content useful!
Interestingly the vcoa climb method is used in some part of the world where they are not GA friendly and don’t want little piston planes wandering around in low altitude
This was great in that it presented a holistic perspective on ODPs in a short amount of time, thank you!
Thank you. It's a complex subject but I did my best.
Thank you very much, I have to say this is the most cleared one out of 5 videos I watch
Great to hear!
This is an excellent video, thank you.
You're welcome
Thank you for explaining so well. It would be hard to follow just by reading it out of a printed document.
You are welcome!
I had no idea there were so many ways to do it departure procedure! Thank you for this
Your welcome!
I learned a lot on this video. Thank you.
Hey Seth, just for clarification on the first example with the 24% OCS. The obstacle for the example was 0.74nm from DER, which got us a climb gradient of 489ft/nm. Does this mean exactly 489ft/nm from the DER? Because after applying the 24% rule we are supposed to be clearing the obstacle by 117ft which we would only get to after a mile of climbing at 489ft/nm from DER, but the obstacle is 0.74nm from DER... so wouldn't we cross over the obstacle lower than 117ft assuming we didn't take off until close to or exactly at DER theoretically? Does this mean we would need to take off the much sooner than DER to be able to cross it at least 117ft above? Is there a way they calculate this distance to takeoff prior to the DER? I might be misunderstanding something there...
Thanks, your videos have been very helpful!
Wow! Great question. Let me go back and look at what I said on the video and I'll get back to you.
Great explanations of a very complex topic! Thank you.
Thank you!
Mehn! I don’t watch movies that in form of series but I enjoy watching your videos! I watch one after the other, good stuff man! Im waiting on my FTSA to alllow me begin my training for PPL
Good to hear! Best of luck with your training!
This is exactly what I was looking for! Thanks for making this.
Glad I could help!
This was great thank you!
such a great resource. thank you!
You're welcome!
4:35 isn't the plane started from 35' above the departure end of the runway and not the actually surface of the runway? That's how we do it in Canada at least.
Great point! In the US some of the obstacle clearance services start at the surface and others start at 35 ft. The most conservative outlook is to assume the surface starts at zero feet.
Hey Seth.....maybe a dumb question but was looking at the PAPI GA for RWY 25 at KRUE in the A/FD 4 degrees, the RNAV 25 is 3 degrees. I know sometimes these differ but this seemed a lot. Obviously there are controlling obstacles on that approach and there is the note on the plate that warns that the 34:1 is not clear on the visual segment. Why such a difference in the GA, what am I missing?
The different glideslopes are so the obstacles can be avoided from the published minimums down to the runway.
Thank you!
Hello, what is a safe altitud to start turning the VCOA?
Great question! I’ll do a video on VCOA soon but the short answer is the ODP will always specify.
Really good, cleared a lot of questions and learned many things I didn’t know.
Good to hear.
So if departing a pilot controlled airport, IFR, that has a ODP, clearance delivery will not read the ODP back to me as part of my clearance but when I read back the clearance I should say “following the ODP” and then read back the rest of the clearance?
According to the 7110.65W pg. 4-3-1 (this document prescribes air traffic control procedures and standard phraseology) it says for controllers to:
"Where an obstacle departure procedure (ODP) has been published for a location and pilot compliance is necessary to ensure separation, include the procedure as part of the ATC clearance."
However, in my experience they normally do not include the ODP in the clearance. If you think you need to follow the ODP, I would readback "request to depart via the ODP" along with the rest of the clearance you were given. I'm sure at airports with graphical ODPs and much higher terrain, the ODP is given in the clearance. The reason the textual ODPs get left out is they are often not needed since the weather is well above the minimum required ceiling and you can easily see and avoid terrain on the departure.
Hope this answers your question!
@@SethLakeDPE Former ATC here, currently teaching a college TERPS course. Some clarification:
You do not need to request an ODP (unless you were assigned a different DP that you do not want to fly), but it's a good idea to let ATC know you intend to fly one.
Your reasoning is in the ballpark. There are two main reasons ATC doesn't generally assign non-SID DPs. For starters, and this is the one you zeroed in on, is that they're not the ones who are familiar with the weather at the airport. Their information is only as good as the computer generated weather updates they've received. And while it stands to reason that if it's clear and a million for hundreds of miles, you, as the pilot, are the person responsible for judging whether you can adequately see and remain clear of the terrain. Hence the reason you can pick any (legal) manner of getting yourself up to to the MEA on departure: VFR climb, DP, VCOA.
The other reason is that ATC is already protecting the DP's area, whether or not you use it. Aircraft performance, pilot ability, runway selection, winds, and many other factors influence where your aircraft will be between the airport and the point where you join the en route environment -- and that's before getting to a DP. Because of that, the area protected for an IFR departure from an untowered field is broader than I think most pilots realize. Whether or not you fly it is essentially irrelevant to ATC, because they need to protect the area either way.
I'll add a condition here, because like a lot of other aspects of aviation, there are some exceptions. At some untowered fields, with radar to the ground and relatively low / simple MEAs, ATC may assign ODPs in other to expedite a departure's entry into the en route environment (which is why the .65 quote you chose is written the way it is, "necessary to ensure separation"). I have not worked traffic in any facility that did this, so I can't give any examples, but it could potentially reduce the protected area from "just cover everything" to "just cover a reasonable area around the airport and the path of the DP".
Keep up with the videos. TERPS is a dense subject to cover, and yours is literally the only video I found taking it on in any substantial manner. Nice work.
Edit to add: Speaking of exceptions to rules. I said at the beginning you don't need to request an ODP. This is almost always the case, but a few do require it, which is indicated in the DP notes. VCOA procedures, like the one mentioned around 18:33, are among them.
@@Rosstafari Wow! Thank you so much for the detailed response. I would love to chat with you sometime about this if you have some time. Can you friend me on FB and send me a message? I would really like to do more videos on this in the future and need some tutoring from someone like yourself. Thank you again for taking the time to provide such great feedback!
@@SethLakeDPE You got it, friend invite inbound. Sorry I didn’t see this till now. Though I suspect you may end up being the one teaching me; your videos are really well done.
Pythagorus would have been proud
👍👍👨✈
👍