Home Charging Installation Risks and Advice
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ต.ค. 2022
- Sandy, Dick and JW discuss home charging issues and solutions
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Outro:
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#EV #Charging #Installation - บันเทิง
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Munro should have a look at tearing down some chargers that are used in homes and commercially to see the standards they have.
Safety is paramount. But convenience is nice to have in a home charging setup. for that look at "chargehanger"
they are really quite good across the board. thats why you dont really find very cheap ones.
Europe has solved this proble, mostly. There are specialized EV plugs like the "greenup", and a lot of people use the P17 plugs, which are rated for continuous use. Breakers are rated for continuous use, and legislation often prescribes specific classes of RCD to use.
@@chargehanger in germany a professional installation is only done with direct wiring to the fuse box, no plug at all.
These are not in fact chargers, it's a misnomer. All charging happens within the car. These are just cable and adapter interfaces, some with logic for power delivery. They are very simple devices, even the smart ones.
I am an electrical engineer(retired) who wrked in design of building services. The problem with all of the burned plugs, breakers, and boxes was that the wires used in all of the failures shown was that they all used aluminum wire. This is a known issue with high load applications ( electrical heating is another one) where the load is intermittent. The constant cycling causes the aluminum to flow when hot and then when it cools the connection pressure is reduced.
don't use aluminum wire- copper only, and you should not have problems!
I agree %100, I'm an A Journeymen in the IBEW with 30 years in the trade and an AAS. the first thing I noticed was the aluminum wire and sub standard Home Depot parts! I own a Tesla Model 3 & Y and I only use HUBBELL products. I'm will to bet these guys have no license or very little experience with anything rated more than 20amps. Most people have no idea about expansion and contraction when it comes to electrical connects. As you know torque requirements to have consequences! " Electrical Work is a Profession, NOT a Hobby" it looks like these guys used the "WIRED FOR FIRE" method of design.
Hello. I am charging for the last 2 years using the charger that came with my Tesla 2021 model 3. I charge every night in my garage using a standard 115v outlet to 85% SOC typically pulling around 12 amps. This works well for my driving needs. However, my house was built in the early 70’s and has aluminum wiring. Do I have any reason to be concerned? If so should I have an electrician install that special thing ( I don’t remember what it’s called) in the outlet that deals with the issue with aluminum wiring? What about the breaker? Thanks
@@davidreidenberg9941 If you have aluminum wiring in your house, call a REPUTABLE professional electrical contractor to inspect your entire wiring installation. There ARE tabs you put on the end of the aluminum wire to allow proper connection. All compression lugs should be inspected and torqued - all the way from the power wire coming from your power company to the individual outlets. It's gonna be expensive, but you really need to pay attention.
I really don't like to be a pessimist, but you have to treat this situation as carefully and attentively as you would the natural gas connections in your home.
@@The_DuMont_Network thank you so much for your timely response. What about my specific question regarding the way I am charging?
Who TF uses aluminum conductors for something like this? We always use copper. Weird…
A couple tips that might help that anyone can do as a EV owner since 2019:
1) If your car charges fully really early overnight, reduce your charging amps with your car / charger settings. For example I can do 32 amps with my home mobile charger, but I have it set to 22 amps because my car finishes charging fully well before I wake up in the morning, no need to charge at max amps.
2) If you use the mobile charger and never unplug it from your socket, it might be a good idea to unplug it and re-plug it every 4-6 weeks just so that it keeps a nice clean contact. My mobile unit has complained about overheating once and after re-inserting it into the socket, the overheating stopped.
Great tips, Radium… Thanks! A couple quick questions if you don’t mind:
1). I also use a mobile charger for plugging into my newly installed outdoor 220 outlet. I’m set to charge at 32 amps, but sometimes the charging drops to 16 amps according to my Tesla app. Any idea why? I’ll follow your lead and set to 22 amps and see what happens.
2). What would you recommend to clean the mobile charger prongs and outlet receptacles? Would an electrical contact spray help? I’m a total newbie on this, so thanks in advance for any suggestions!
And thank you Sandy!
You would be better off to get a good contact cleaner, save a call to the fire dept.
#1 yes. No need to stress your system if no need.
#2, NO. The MAIN failure point for the cheap $15 Home Depot outlets (besides non-torqued connections) is frequent RE-plugging, the blades/contacts are not designed for many plug cycles at all (just ONCE for a dryer, left forever), and can loosen. If metal is in contact tightly, it won't get dirty anyway.
Hubbell outlets are designed for MUCH better blade contact cycles, and also the wiring lugs/bracket clamps are much better designed as well. Money WELL spent.
@@cgamiga great, thanks!
@@cgamiga difference between a dryer and the EV is the long duration of the full power running between the outlet and the plug. This is why I think the corrosion can occur over time and can cause it to overheat. Also I wouldn’t do it more than 4-6 week intervals. But the higher quality outlets are of course the way to go. I still think those might require occasional unplugging as they too would corrode slightly over time.
Great info , as always, thanks again for your efforts informing us in the cheap seats
You have probably saved homes and possibly lives with this video. Thank you, I am about to check my entire charging system.
FUD is a beautiful tool.
It is obvious that people have to learn when new stuff comes out.
Ev is a wank.. fire hazard in all homes... like a Huge Hover Board...
@@graemejohnson9025 Eloquently stated. Sounds like you have really done your research. I bet you were the smartest kid on the short bus.
I've been living the 120 V lifestyle so far, have a Tesla home charger, and now I am thinking about getting a second box just for the EV and make sure it's a lot safer than that burnt out one. Thank you for this!!
Can’t overstate the value of the information you gentlemen gave! We live in a world where we look for fast answers. We hear, “Move fast & break things, we can fix it later”. I’m not thinking that about setting my garage or house on fire. The Cheap, Fast, Good triangle demands Brains. You folks brought some thinking to the table. Well Done!
While the intent of this video is admirable, I find it somewhat misleading and incomplete in information. The plug on the end of the charging cord determines what receptacle is required. All receptacles and plugs in the configuration presented are rated at 50 amps. The common 50 amp range outlet should be acceptable as long as everything in the circuit is to specification. Regardless of what is plugged into the receptacle the rating is the same. The statement that the receptacles shown are suitable for your range or dryer but not to charge an EV is simply not true. The failures shown indicate overheating typically caused by poor connections that introduced resistance into the circuit. Any resistance with current flow will cause heat. The issue at hand is that when installing any electrical device that draws ample amounts of current, proper tightness of the connections is paramount. Also, as mentioned in a previous comment, the use of aluminum wire can cause a problem if certain installation practices aren't followed. Producing more expensive components that have an "EV" rating is not the answer to the issues demonstrated in your video. Regardless of what material is used, poor connections will overheat and cause damage. Perhaps the plug and cords on these EV chargers should utilize higher rated components (above 50 amps) to provide heavier contacts and wiring.
I hope the reverence and respect that folks hold for Sandy Munro translates into this getting traction. Thank you for Sandy for allowing your platform to be used to get this out there.
Thanks Sandy, JW and Dick for bringing this serious issue out in the open. Please keep us informed as the solutions unfold.
The solution has already unfolded, you have been warned.
The solution is simple. Don't use Aluminum wiring. Every failure here has aluminum wiring. I'm honestly surprised they never mentioned that or seemed to notice
Thank you all for the great information. I am currently in the process of upgrading our whole home/ garage electrical system to better accommodate 2 EVs. I hadn’t even considered the bus bar thermal management from the breaker to breaker perspective, and will also be bypassing a wall plug for the 2nd charger in favor or direct wiring!
We had our 75 year old home’s panel replaced, updated, and upgraded just prior to deciding to buy two EVs. I got my Model 3 in March 2021, my wife got her VW ID.4 in July of ‘21.
I had our electrician install a Tesla Wall Charger off a sub panel just a foot from the charger. For the VW, it has a new 14-50 outlet off a different sub panel with all new wiring.
We also use TOU charging (between midnight and 6 AM), when other electrical appliances are not in heavy use. Except, during the summer, the a/c will run overnight to keep the house cool.
For well over a year, no problem with either set up. However, I am now going to have our electrician come out and give the setup he installed a good inspection and have him upgrade anything that he deems necessary. I’ll
share this video with him, too.
Thanks for the great work on this!
What a very good show and warning! We are probably a year or so away from getting our first EV- but this show may be the most important one to consider in that process of an EV purchase. Well done, and tell Mr. Shaw 'thank you,' for me!
What typically happens in these failures is that the plug gets dirty, the connection isn't tight enough, or the conductors get a little bit oxidized. This causes the resistance to go up slightly. An additional 0.1 ohm on a 30A system is 90W of heat in the connection (360W in a 60A system). As the temperature rises the conductivity gets worse (causing more heat) and eventually the whole thing melts down. Plug materials changes can contain the blast but they won't solve the root problem.
Indeed. To be fair to that junction box it seems to have done a reasonable job of containing the damage for quite some time.
I use die-electric grease on these type outlets to minimize corrosion on the plug connection.
@@xxwookey That enclosure certainly did its job. It contained the failure that appeared to be caused by improper wire selection and poor assembly. In a perfect world a robust enclosure wouldn't be needed, just something to divert the rain. But the NEC has a second line of protection.
I look at that as a success.
Thank you guys so much for this. I too experienced a similar event. An upgraded connector will help, but I learned that Europe is forcing the use of wire ferrules to keep the strands of wire in place at the connection points. It fixed my problems completely. I also used a 100A splice point to avoid any heat buildup. Simply clamping the wire and mashing doesn't work.
Great information thanks for bringing it to our attention! 🙏🏼
As an architect, this is so important. Thank you Sandy
I should be noted that having a thermal camera is a great tool to help find these issues. Some businesses regularly scan electrical panels for hot spots. Hot spots and indicate poor connections, underrated wiring, or breaker issues. Moving forward it might be another important tool to have at home.
$400 well spent. Can also find leaks in your insulation.
@@toddmarshall7573 I purchased a FLIR camera that attaches to your phone. I compared it to an actual expensive camera and it was spot on. About $300 on A ma Zo n. I purchased right after I installed my Bryant (Hubble was almost tipple the price and according to Gra inger, it is the same product) 14-50. I often check the temperature from the socket all the way back to the Service box to make sure no surprises have developed.
that reminded me I have a IR thermometer, I should check my charger with it. Not as good, but much much cheaper.
Thanks guys. Public understanding of EVSE is crucial.
they Dont even Teach EVSE or BEV Tech in Middile or High School.
@@markplott4820 Be a good time to start.
Thanks for this safety related video. One thing I noticed on the failed components was that they appeared to have aluminum wiring. For heavy, extended loads I would definitely prefer maximum gauge copper wiring even though it costs quite a bit more.
Sandy and his friends and compatriots are great teachers. Regulation of the quality and performance of EV charging infrastructure clearly requires government regulation. Because, as Sandy has so aptly put it…, ..” some people don’t like it when their house burns down.” Well said!
Get the government involved????? What makes you think THEY"RE going to make things better? They'll just add to the cost!
Regulation of electrical infrastructure has existed for a century, and has evolved to be exceptionally safe. Very few changes are needed for what is just another electrical load, comparable to an oven, HVAC, or water heater
If Sandy had his way he would have regulations for rigid markings on "all" roads. Kind of naive.
@@robertbigler7743 The government is already involved and has been for many years, houses used to burn down much more readily, where have you been for the last hundred years?
@@robertbigler7743 Yeah, let's leave it to corporations to make sure we're safe. They certainly won't put profits before what's best for their customers.
Well done Sandy. I just called my electrician to educate him and get him to change out the breaker and plug. JW's recommendations are very necessary given the loads of these weak points and fire potential.
What’s the recommended nema connector brand ?
@@tracle8334 I think the one mentioned in the video was Hubbell.
I'll bet your electrician got a chuckle out of that.
@@beachcrow Thank you. Hubbellreceptacle 3P4W 50A 125 $139.99 is cheap. What's your life worth? I ask people that balk at the price on a wiring component.
You can't educate an electrician, we know everything. He probably decided to just get more easy money
Very important topic. Thank you for using your channel to bring it to light.
This level of concern and information is why I follow Munro
Thank you for getting this info out. The brand new world of EV charging with high current/constant loads needs attention so avertable disasters don't happen, Thank you gentlemen!
This video came out at the right time for me. I hired an electrician 4 years ago to install a NEMA 14/50 port in my garage and have been using the Tesla mobile charger since with no problems. However a few months ago I bought the Tesla wall connector since I'm now charging two EVs (one at a time) and needed a longer cable. I was tempted to install it my self but will now hire an electrician and mention the problems covered in this video. THANKS!
Great information thank you all for taking the time to share this information 👍🙏😊
Great info ! Thank you all for this video. It is very eye opening. 🔥
Great points!
A typical 240v dryer pulls 10-30 amps…..but usually with duty-cycle and only 60-90 minutes run time.
Run time of dryer is not the entire time it is on, it cycles on and off during that period just like an oven, that's why the breaker and wiring and switches and plugs and sockets have time to cool.
In my house we run the dryer all day once a week to keep the laundry pile under control. The AC runs constantly in the summer and the stove runs several hours each week. The introduction of outlets and a duty cycle is somewhat alarming to me. Seems outlets should either be rated for 100% duty or be clearly marked and rated.
This is right on time. I planned on installing my home charger this weekend.
You have been successful in getting my attention. Extremely valuable information and much appreciated.
Great topic! Thanks for making more people aware!
This is one of Sandy's most useful and important videos, and that is really saying something since his company's videos are almost always extraordinarily useful and important. The importance of the fact that EVSEs have duty cycles that last for hours cannot be overstated. Dryers, water heaters, electric ranges, all turn on and off. It is only the EVSE that comes on and stays on at high current for hours. My installation is a 60-amp circuit to a Tesla EVSE that draws 48 amps to max out my car's 11 kWh on-board charger. My EVSE is wired directly using copper cabling. It is clear from this video that electrical plugs, circuit breakers and wiring needs to be labeled "EV certified". Before seeing this video I was under the mistaken impression that any 60-amp plug or circuit breaker could be used for 100% duty cycle applications, which is clearly not the case. I was lucky to find a professional electrician who specializes in EVSE installations to do the job. That was 4-years ago when there were not as many electric cars on the road. I live in a small town outside of Rochester, NY, so I was "super" lucky to find an expert in my small town area. Hiring an expert was money well spent. I suggest anyone looking to install an EVSE in their home investigate electrical contractors in their area that have expertise in this area. Ask them if they install EVSE specific equipment and if they use copper cabling. Their answers could determine if your house is safe or not. Thank you Sandy Monro for an extraordinarily helpful video.
Karl, I Iive in Rochester. Who did the electrical work for you?
This isn't true. Any NEMA 14-50 outlet can handle a Tesla mobile charger. You are right about needing copper cable though. Look closely at the video and you will see that EVERY failure shown is using Aluminum cable.
The root cause is the aluminum cabling. This video should be about 30 seconds long and titled "This is what happens when you charge your EV on aluminum wires"
Great video. I have a permanent installation for my EV at 48 amps. I limited my charging speed to 28 amps as give plenty of time for my car to charge overnight. I am happy I have done this after watching your video. We should always charge at the slowest speed that convenient for the model of car we have and the usage we are making.
Your battery will thank you and your wallet, Toyota will only have slow charge on their system. fast charging = early death of your battery plus the charge is so quick it drains a lot quicker too. fake charging
Thanks Sandy! I recently a NEMA 14-50 installed for.a Chargepoint Home Flex - by certified electrician. However, I never knew any of this information that you and your team shared... Now I'm going back and reviewing this insulation, to see if all possible safety precautions have been to observed! Many thanks!
Wow! This was really eye opening! I thought I could just tell my electrician to install a plug for my wall charger and that was it, but now I need to rethink the whole installation. Thank you.
You don't have to rethink anything, this video is making it seem like a bigger thing than it is.
Lack of certification for intended use is beyond frustrating, but sadly nothing unexpected. You guys are doing a great job with this PSA, hopefully it gets further though. Thanks.
I’ve dealt with our local building code inspector and I wouldn’t trust him to think too hard.
It's a good idea to check for high joints by feeling cables, connectors and breakers and/or use IR Temp sensor periodically. connections can go bad over time plus under high load. I had my Tesla wall connector direct wired to a dedicated sub-panel with other receptacles including a 40-50 for other EV's to use four years ago and set the car to charge at a max. 25A to80% 90% of the time. Adding a line monitor to limit current when driers, air conditioning and other loads are all on at the same time is a good idea, too. Thanks for bringing up the issue. I used to install high current xray machines 480VAC 3phase in an earlier life and were always cognoscente of proper connections and grounding.
Great points, my electrician recommended we don't run the dryer & charge at the same time, seems like a good idea and worth the minor inconvenience
Thanks guys for the heads up ! Much appreciated. 👍🏻
Thank you for covering this important issue!!!
Good discussion. Long time coming. Too many Tesla owners pay $70,000+ for car but cheap out on appropriate home charging equipment. Four years ago I purchased the Tesla connector and had it installed by a Tesla certified master electrician. And yeah, a separate line was installed to a dedicated junction box with a blade cut off. Cost $1400. No issues.
This is also a serious problem for 110v mobile chargers that come with the car. After moving to a new home I discovered I could run my Model 3 on a 110v charge. Unfortunately, the outlet convenient to the car was the 5th outlet daisy chained from the breaker. While the mobile charger automatically derates to a 12 amp draw, after almost a year I had a smoke event and found a completely fried outlet in the middle of the outlet chain and outlets on either side having been overheated. Using the end of a chain like that is bad enough, these outlet were installed using the push in connections on the back of many outlets. Any electrician will tell you those suck and to never use them.
Every EV owner needs to have an an EV experienced electrician like JW evaluate their charging installation.
Thank you for telling us. I had no idea, and I'm guessing most of the general public knew about the nature of this. We all think a dryer outlet is simply a dryer outlet. Never knew to factor in duty cycle or the other things mentioned. Great public service making this video!
Thank you, thank you, thank you for well informed information on what to be aware of when I decide to have a charger installed in my garage for my Tesla Y car.
I just installed a 30 amp single pole RV outlet in my garage sub panel for my lithium battery class B motor home. In my research, I learned about wire gauge and what it needs to be for distance runs of circuits. I really do applaud Sandy and his guests at MUNRO for this video. This sure is some serious stuff and it looks like the standards agencies are a bit late to the party. Hopefully, some with the ability to facilitate changes will see this video and start making this stuff right...
The standards agency's have been up to date for many years, people just don't pay attention to them. I just checked, Tesla tells people what the standards say and others likely do also, just listen. You can only recommend not force people.
@@tedmoss Will you please cite the standards resource documentation e.g. web link so we here can take a look? I'd like to read up on the subject mater and thanks...
Thanks for sharing! This is huge! Now people will listen!!!
I wish the listen part of your hope becomes a reality, but sadly we live in a very strange world where the policy makers reign supreme and the knowledge folks never get to talk to them.If the electrician makes one small mistake however inconsequential he is potentially subject to severe penalization, loses his license etc. but as long as he follows the faulty rules he is exempt from criticism and no one is held accountable....not a good recipe for change.
Yep. Very welcome discussion!
When I charge I open the door to the 100 amp sub panel and put a fan in front of it. You can watch the amps drop and volts go up.
Absolutely! If an small AC unit was used while the EV is charging, it would be a safety feature. Also, bigger conductors and breakers than needed/rated would be another safety feature, wouldn't you think? Just plain very hot temperatures can be hazardous when charging. charging a little every night rather then charging fully every night is better. Charge only when necessary to match the daily driving needs one has.
First thank you for the video and the information and thank you the making and taking the time to put it out there. I am a master electrician in New York City and only this morning as I unplugged my electric car I realized that the prongs were hot and started looking for a new receptacle to replace that one because I know it's at the end of it life. Not everyone is aware of this sign and I'm happy to see that it is coming to light
*Passed this along to my electrician.* Many thanks! I will have my electrician install a separate EVSE breaker and panel with voltage management. Glad I went with the decicated TESLA wall charger with no junction boxes used. Not a fan of using 60A just because "i can". Best to give wide berth to the minimum code requirements.
Sounds like overkill if you are already set up with the Tesla Wall Charger. You can just reduce the maximum charging to 40amps instead of 48amps if you want to reduce the load.
I'm a master electrician and most of the issues like this are caused by the installer not tightening the the lugs or alternatively stripping the threads. Look for where the hot spot begins. Finally, he mentions torque, not many people use torque wrenches! We are not going to get people to change out panels to bolt in breakers. Do they really think that someone has never had a dryer or range running for an entire Saturday or Thanksgiving????
You are 100% on point here. I have 25 years of maintenance, industrial ops, and engineering. Everything you said is 100% what is going on. Add cheap parts to the lowest bidder labour skill level, and this is what you get.
I have an electricity monitor, and even full-use for oven and dryer, they are 50% load cycle at best. I can see the square-wave pattern of the cycles on&off.
EV charging, is a solid constant load 100% of the time. and yes, torque (and RE-torquing) is critical. Going to re-check mine now...
Thank you for the edu. Using the Mfr EVSE, that was me. Using an existing circuit (120v), that was me. New, full-memory respect for the hazards. That’s me now. Again, thank you to Munro LIVE!!
Excellent topic! Thank you Sandy.
Since I am looking to have the wiring done for my CyberTruck in the coming year, this is a very timely and critical topic for me. I will find the best professional electrician I can in my area, and will go over the specs of the installation very carefully. It seems obvious from the discussion that the current code is not relevant to the need here. Thanks for keeping us safe with this video!
The current code is relevant (if you have one) and has been for many years, it is just not implemented because of ignorance.
Just like putting the cart before the horse...
excellent on point video Sandy, here in the uk the max home car chargers as far as i am aware are 22kw unless you have a 3 phase install, also a lot of chargers have seperate dedicated earths, all as far as i am aware have to be fitted with a fast cut off fuse, home chargers here in the uk are tested to the max before they can even going on sale, the uk is not generally a user of slow granny chargers(slow) plugged into the mains unlike the usa and plug into the dryer sockets,but then for us its 240v ac single phase is the norm, although newer houses are being built capable of future upgrading to a 3 phase incoming supply, the stickers on my incoming electrical supply is 400v 100 amp, then fused down to 240v 100 amp max load for my house to my fuse box, our ev chargers are also equipped with rcd trips as well, different countries different electrical standards
22kw is 3 phase, normal chargers are 7kw.
this is really the most important video of all EV videos of this channel
Now that was incredibly useful content! Thank!
For those of us that can’t get the box, circuit breaker and plug changed out will dropping the max amps the EV will pull to 20-25 amps rather then 40+ amps relieve the problem enough to be safe. I use RV park 50 amp plugs a lot at many different parks. Going overnight the time isn’t so much an issue, but at times they are the only power source available.
I've been home charging since 2014. I've installed 5 or more EVSEs. Never any problem. Recently I went to a direct wired EVSE to support the 11.2kw the MME can draw. My house has 2 x 200amp main service panels. I have no doubt there are lots of people, even licensed people, that don't do a job correctly, but I have not seen or even heard of any problem with home EV charging in my area. Not sure about that box, but it looks like an A/C disconnect, which may only be rated for 30amp.
There have been no USA house fires related to home EV charging. This video makes it seem like it's a bigger issue than it really is. Maybe if hard wired wall charging units weren't so expensive then people wouldn't use a mobile connector for full time charging. But that still isn't a problem if you keep the mobile connector plugged in all the time and buy another one to keep in the car. Even 120 volt house outlets have a limited life when things are frequently plugged in and out of them.
One of the most important and informative videos I have ever seen on the new EV technology gentlemen!!! This needs to be investigated MUCH FURTHER by the "Electrical Industry" as we move toward EV charging infrastructure both on the road and especially at home and in apartment/condo complexes!
Excellent quality control argument that needs/must to go forward!
Sandy - God Bless you! You just saves many, many lives and property.
Doubtful.
I use a mobile charger but, since I have overnight to charge I limit the charge current to 25 amperes on a 50-amp circuit. The continuous rating for a 50-ampere circuit is 40-amperes. Since resistive losses are proportional to the square of the current, this reduces those losses by ~60%. Similarly, a 30-amp dryer circuit is rated for 24 amperes continuous, so charging at 19 amperes provide a proportionate reduction in heating losses on that circuit.
Even if I were to install directly-wired charger (Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment, or EVSE) I would follow a similar practice as the main panel breaker for the circuit is also subject to the heat stress.
It has been too many years (decades?) since I've studied NEC, UL, ETL or other requirements for these types of interconnection components so I cannot comment on the expected lifetime of a properly applied (torqued) component operated at its continuous rating. I only know that operating comfortably away from the continuous rating of any component will greatly extend its lifetime. Since I like my equipment to have good lifetime I am generally conservative in how I use it.
I am a little disappointed that, other than selecting "bakelite" vs. other materials for temperature withstand, no other guidance is provided for selecting a more robust version of a NEMA 14-50 receptacle, for example. Both styles would have passed UL, ETL CSA-US or other certification for 50-amp intermittent, 40-amp continuous rating. This may be what the commentators are getting to when advocating for a tougher set of EVSE standards.
A follow-up demonstration of an "acceptable" NEMA 14-50 receptacle and a lower cost "unacceptable" NEMA 14-50 receptacle, properly installed and applied at the 40-amp continuous rating. I would be interested in any difference in temperature rise between the two devices. A second comparison with a terminal improperly torqued on each would reveal a difference in safety margins between the two components, particularly the temperature at which the housing starts degrading. This would better inform the decision to install the more expensive component.
Exactly! Please do a follow up video for consumers highlighting what's safest. I have a Leaf that charges every night by mobile charger to an ordinary wall outlet that I never unplug from the wall. Model Y arriving and installing dedicated Tesla charger for her. Will the electrician know if I need a separate dedicated breaker box for that? Am I correct now concluding that I do from this video? My neighbor is building a new home from scratch where he'll be charging his big Volvo SUV, what would be the best practices there?
Wow, thank you so much for this heads up.:) I've recently bought a Model Y and am using a NEMA 6-50 extension plug for charging. I'm going out as we speak and checking my outlet and sub-panel.:) Thanks again.:)
Thank you Sandy and Team! Very relevant and important topic for all EV owners.
If I recall correctly, NEC requires that anything that runs continuously over 2-3 hours must be rated for 125% of calculated continuous current. So if you are drawing 60A, you need to rate everything for 75A or greater. Also, many breakers, outlets, cut-off switches, etc. are not rated for high temperatures. You might need to increase wire size to decrease temperature to match breaker and plug ratings. Most cheap NESC 14-50 plug outlets are not rated for continuous current and are only rated 60C. (They're rated for 1 maybe 2 hours at most.) If you are assuming that your 90C conductor can save you money, you're wrong. The lowest rated temperature is deciding factor. The conductor must derated (must increase conductor size) to compensate for the lowest temperature rated device. The heat from the conductor, as well as any poor connections, will heat the associated equipment. And lastly, don't forget about voltage drop. Having an EV circuit ran from a breaker panel located on the other side of a building/house will probably cause a voltage drop, which will also heat up the conductor. Branch circuit should be limited to a maximum of 3% voltage drop. Don't go cheap while wiring you EV receptacle.
I installed a big box junk 14-50 outlet and when my son came over with his Tesla, after charging for 4 hours at 40 amps, the outlet was so hot it could burn your hand. Replaced the outlet with a Hubbell and now it get barely warm. Luckily he was only visiting for a few hours, a over night charge could have cause a fire
He mentions the derating at 21:10 and suggests that it go from 125% of the value (80% of the breaker) to 130% (about 77% of breaker). FLO already does this by limiting their EVSEs to 30A instead if 32A on a 40A breaker (which is actually 133% of value or 75% of breaker).
A longer wire of a given gauge has more voltage drop but does not get hotter than a short wire of the same gauge under the same load. The two wires would warm up the same amount when located in the same environment. The same heat into a lot more wire means a lot less temp rise since it has more surface area to dissipate heat. The 3% drop is related to acceptable operating voltage at the target and by itself, can not predict temperature rise. For example, a 3% voltage drop at 240v/40 amps over 6 inches of wire would be flaming hot, but over 150 feet it would be difficult to detect the warming. To know the actual temp rise you would need to know the environment. If the wire were running inside of insulation it would get warmer than if it were running through an empty wall cavity because heat dissipation would be slowed.
@@mfrankgilbreath6271 I installed a Leviton 14-50 and it does not get warm to the touch charging at 40 amps for hours on end. I'll have to put my FLIR on it to see what it looks like sometime. Not sure what brand you had, how old it was, and how many times it had been plugged in/unplugged. They do wear out with repeated in/out.
@@apostolakisl I guess you got a good one and the one I got was crap. It wasn’t from excessive plugins. I installed when my Son got a Tesla. Anyway, after getting the Hubbell and seeing the huge difference in quality, I feel better having the Hubbell.
Looks like both melted situations use aluminum wire. While using cheap aluminum wire can be made to work, but it's far tricker, and every component attached must be rated for alumium. Really better to use copper with proper components, such as industrual rated outlets, not consumer grade.
thank you for the heads up!
Great information! Thank you!
As an EE, I immediately see a red flag and "Uh Oh" in that cut-off junction box. Aluminum (Aluminium) wiring! It's still coded and allowed in the USA as a cost-cutting measure. But I would avoid it due to potential overheating and fires. It is very specific as to what type of aluminum compatible interfaces you can use, and specific steps to safeguard against galvanic corrosion. Many electricians, and homebuilders don't hire the certified and knowledgeable 'apprentices' to be aware of the physics behind this. Many homes have old aluminum wiring mixed with cheap replacement switches and outlets meant for copper wiring.
Unlike you, I'm a layperson. But, any mention of aluminum wiring is just frightful.
The problem is these 50A plugs are designed for stoves, and other "non-continuous loads" The electrical code is well aware of the issue of "continuous loads".
Where we could get away undersizing wiring slightly for a range or dryer, you can't get away with undersizing when the load runs for 4+ hours. Thats why the electric code calls out for conductors being sized at 80% for continuous loads. (circuit can handle 50A, but your car charges at 40A)
Electricians aren't paying attention to "continuous" vs "non-continuous" load classifications because there aren't many "continuous load" devices in the home... thus they follow non-continuous practices, creating fire hazards.
That 50A plug is probably designed to deal with real-world (non-continuous) loads of 40A with 50A being "peak". Now you take 80% of 40A and get a maximum "continuous load" of 32A. 32A is pretty standard for older generations of EV's.. however as vehicles start pushing up towards the limits of 50A, we start seeing these failures.
tldr; hard wire your EVSE if it does over 32A real world. Make sure you wiring it sized for 50A.
I don't think any NEMA 14-50 plug-connected EVSEs go over 32A?... they shouldn't, if there are some that go to 40A, they really should be required to hard-wire for that! good point!
@@cgamigathey can go up to 40amps
Thank you for this video and hopefully it makes a difference!
Thanks! This may matter more to all your viewers than your teardowns. Good choice to speak up about it!
My brother in law is a commercial Electrician, and he did a nice job with my charger install :-)
So was JW, but when the equipment fails thats not on the electrician. Look for a hubbel outlet made with bakelite not plastic.
Thanks Sandy and friends. Great job of warning the public about this problem. You might want to explain duty cycle for people who don't know what that is. Again, great job.
Thanks a lot for this Dr. Munro!
Great info. I’m going to check mine when I get home
Interesting, I had similar problems: 1. my breaker was making noises (was extremely hot) and it tripped every time my charger went over 4A. 2nd problem I experienced - was my plug melted, as showed in the video
A secondary problem is the vehicle and connection design. For example, Tesla has thermal cutout in i's connector in case the outlet was not wired properly and overheats. In addition, Tesla monitors the voltage and if the voltage sags (due to bad wiring or installation), it shuts off. I suspect other manufaturers don't offer these safety systems yet.
Thank you so much for that video… I really appreciated you doing that video. I installed one of those $15 plugs in my house and now I’m going to order the one they recommended.. by the way it is $77 on Amazon. Thank you Sandy great video for our safety….
Much appreciated Sandy.
This is great info. I would love to see official ratings and code updates around this. In the mean time it would be great if someone put together a parts list of "better choices" (even if not perfect) for people who are looking at this sort of work in the near future. What do I ask my electrocution for or how do I interview an electrician to make sure they are on top of this?
They already exist, please don't get electrocuted. Show him this video.
Don't allow them to use aluminum wiring for your home!
It's a good idea to get a ul-listed charger, not just ul-listed parts. At the very least it gives you a good argument against your insurance, in the unlikely event of a problem.
Pretty sure no one would use aluminum wiring now, it doesn't meet any code.
Well I’m scared now, living in a house of seven people my Washer and dryer run 24 seven. Also everything in my house with electrical equipment made 45 years ago in America for better or worse. This is a great video! Your doing Gods work Sandy!
you still might be ok. the heating element in the dryer doesn't run the whole time, it cycles on and off. It may be enough to help. but wouldn't hurt checking.
45 years ago, the plug might be bakelite and it can handle the heat. I would get an electrician with some experience to look at it.
@@wildweav Jesus christ is this video section just filled with electricians looking for work? How many people have electricians come in to check a circuit that has been working for 45 years? You guys are insane
I spent $1,000 to install the Tesla Wall Connector by an Electrician (did not include the Tesla unit) Don’t go cheap. It always amazes me how many TH-camrs are promoting DIY for only a few hundred dollars! Stop the insanity! Good job Sandy and Team! Giving the whole story!
I am so impressed - I could not agree more
I’ve set my charging to a lower amperage because my gut told me the higher temps were not a great idea. I’ve got no experience with this level of expertise, but I feel safer charging at lower amps and late at night when there is less chance of an oven or other high amperage units running at the same time.
That is called COMMON SENSE. When you have the whole night? Just charge at half power. BUT when you need to drive a lot and need full power? Again use common sense and design for continuous load. Breaker spacing is a good one that I took from this video. Leave a space below and above empty for air circulation. Again, common sense.
Yes common (wire) sense is key. No plug in chargers should be used. All should be directly wired. I recommend stepping up the wire gauge as well. I used #4 wire. Stepped it up for heat load, especially here in Phoenix. Wire temps in the attics here are in the 170s with no current in the wire. After watching this I am questioning my 60 amp “ regular” breaker for the EV charger. Might have to redo my entire panel. My house was built in the 80s.
@@logicalreason51 Plug in charging is perfectly acceptable, especially if you leave it plugged in all the time. House 120 volt outlets go bad when plugged in and out frequently too.
This is good practice. No need to charge max power if it gets done well before needed. I've noticed on my car, charging at max amps causes the cooling fan to kick on more often. So at the very least, you're wasting more electricity from heat losses.
@@logicalreason51this is nonsense the vast majority of EVSEs are plug in and work fine. Stop being alarmist
Great information. Can we get JW's recommendations in document format so I can pass that on to electricians quoting a job for an installation to follow. Thank you.
This was a WOW video and very informative. I live in Mexico. We don't have that many EVs yet, but the process here is for our electric company to install a new meter for a dedicated service. I think that might circumvent the problems being articulated in the video.
very valuable video---a must watch
26:00 Use a heat imaging camera. It will show you dramatically where you need to pay special attention to points of heat generation. And it's almost always right at the connections...not in the wires themselves.
Industrial grade outlets and proper torquing probably will help most situations. Of course, properly gauged wiring and breakers is assumed. There's nothing wrong with moblie connectors - I use two for five years now with no issues.
Really great info. I hope this video saves people a lot of grief' My son is an EE and bought a Tesla charger and wired it with Copper wire. Only his breaker box has stacked breakers.
13:40 I have this box outside my house. There's sort of a "key" for the user and if you plug it in right side up, we'll call that "A", it is connected. If you unplug the "key" or put it back into the box upside down in orientation "B", it is OFF. Plugging in using the "A" orientation (upright), it is easy to fail to seat the key fully. You really have to PUSH it in to fully engage the contacts.Not-fully-engaged contacts could be the problem, not the electrician as Sandy suggested.
very interesting.... i just set my 240v charge sessions to 16 amps.... just to keep the heat down. more than enough for an entire overnight charging.
Then why not just use a 120 volt outlet?
I think the real problem here is people installing charging systems who are incompetent, unknowledgeable or careless. They should understand the difference between continuous and intermittent loads. They should know that a $10 14-50 socket is not going to be up to par, although it also apparent that UL Listing alone is not sufficient for verifying that the parts meet their specs. That said, based on what I've seen in recent years, most of the problems are due to careless or incompetent workmanship. I don't see much point to passing more laws and regulations that will just be ignored. If current laws and regulations were followed properly, these problems wouldn't be occurring.
Wow Thanks Sandy. Checking my setup right now and lowering 48a to 30a.
Thank you for posting this Sandy. EVSE is %125 continuous duty rated, and the infrastructure that feeds it needs to be up to %125 capacity rated.
Here is some advice- Check to see if your breaker/plug/wire is warm after a long full power charge. Slightly warm = OK, Hot = Bad
You definitely need to adhere to the 80% rule as a minimum. I do have the 14-50 dryer plug as my receptacle, but it is on a 30amp circuit breaker and the charger is set to 20amp load. Most wall chargers allow you to set the charge rate, just be wise and not select the highest one you can! 😉
Having a 50 amp rated plug connected to a 30 amp breaker is not exactly error-proof (or poke-yoke as Sandy would say). Consider switching to a fully capable 50 amp circuit ( including wiring) or make sure the plug is clearly and durably labeled so nobody accidentally burns down the structure!
480v 3-Phase is so much better.
@@johnsonfamilyvideos1876 you never want (apart from being illegal) to install a 50 amp plug to a 30 amp breaker. That will allow someone to connect a 50 amp load to a severely under rated circuit.
@@Thatdavemarsh You can plug it in, but the Breaker will trip before anything bad happens, so i see no practical issue with that. Unless your breakers are much diffrent than the ones we have here in Germany. Here the rule is Circuit Rating (Wiring and Connectors) >= Breaker Rating >= Circuit Load.
The other way around would be really bad though (30 Amp Wiring and Socked with a 50 Amp Breaker)
@@unitrader403 for US codes, the wire back to the breaker should be rated for the full 50A. A smaller breaker isn't a problem as long as the wire won't ever be overloaded, but you cannot rely on the breaker to limit current.
Hi Guys, I am an Aussie here and use 240VAC where what you were looking at was 110VAC. At least the sockets were, if you use 240VAC the current is halved. You guys have 240VAC as I have watched many guys in machine shops and blacksmiths adding lathes and Milling machine on you tube. They have 240VAC outlets fitted. Of course you are right the gear used is not fit for purpose. Duty cycle must be taken into account.
Thanks for bringing this dangerous situation to light and like you I hope the electrical law makers have a look at this and make some changes.
Having retired from doing electrical work for several years and seeing the type of work done by so-called licensed electricians scared me enough that I do my own whenever possible. Many of them seem to only have a passing knowledge of the NEC or the reason for it. Circuit protection is meant to save lives by preventing fires and is continuously being updated with new proven requirements but does little if they aren't followed. Building codes do help but many times the inspector is depending on the work he can't see being safe just because a supposed licensed electrician installed it. Years of good sound experience is worth paying for when the life of your loved ones depends on it. Thanks for bringing this issue to the forefront.