I'm 38 and considering taking the leap to get my pilot's license. I also can afford a Cessna 172. The planes I see are from the 60s and 70s. My experience with owning multiple old cars allows me to understand that I'll put an order of magnitude more into a plane. Cost of ownership always has to be considered. Your videos have helped me build a realistic picture of what 172 ownership is like and they've nudged me over the edge to actually pursue real world flying. I appreciate you!
Just happened upon your videos and glad I did. I’m 54 and just purchased my first plane myself, a 1966 Cherokee 180. I’m going through similar thought processes for upgrades and enjoy watching your videos. I look forward to watching more.--Bret
nice cardinal... my family had one and I learned to fly in it.. one thing concerned me... you admitted you didn't know if the instruments worked or not... that's not a rental... you own it... there's no excuse for not knowing the operational status of all equipment on board.. from a map light to your CDI... you should have known before you bought it.. but for sure by now.. you may not know it's exact accuracy... but you can tune a VOR and see if it cross checks with the other radio... fly to it and see if it's below you.. see if the flags swap when you cross.. follow a gliseslope on a visual... etc.. I check out everything in every plane I fly.. I sure don't want any surprises at the the wrong time.. and I know every squawk on every bird I own at all times.. that's just responsibility.. if you do have an inop instrument... label it as Inop.. that way if by chance someone else ends up flying it.. they aren't relying on a bad instrument... hope you'll take this as encouragement... sorry if it sounded harsh.. just worries me when I see pilots/owners oblivious to important issues surrounding aviation.. other than that... good job... and I agree with the guy who said refurb old instruments won't increase the value.. hold out for the g5/345/430 or better yet a 650... the cardinal actually brings decent resale when well equipped... plus you'll be setup for a modern digital autopilot too.. and you can ditch the vacuum system... and the heavy gyro instruments.. saving weight... increasing useful load... making that 150hp seem like a bigger engine just sayin.. I wouldn't spend a dime on that panel if you aren't going the right direction.. just my 2 cents.. I subbed.. congrats on ownership... looking forward to seeing your progress.. enjoy
Texas Tyranny Response Team Absolutely and there are upgrades coming check out the last few of my programs where I’m taking it down to get upgrades on it -thanks for watching!
@@Over50andLearningToFly I have.. saw you took it to Sarasota.. they do nice work.. looking forward to seeing the new panel.. having grown up in the cockpit of a cardinal, it's nice to see them getting some love... when I was 16, with 8 hours and my solo fresh under my belt... my dad sold the cardinal and bought a new Mooney M20K... I finished my private and got my IFR, and commercial in the Mooney.. that was 34 years ago... every time I see a cardinal on a ramp it takes me back.. cheers..
@NonyaBusiness! If you plan on getting a 182 you'll need additional training because of the constant speed prop. Insurance is going to be high due to low time.
Til you are past and passed the annual inspection then look only at things that really need replacing, particularly the transponder which may be an FAA mantatory update. When the inspector signs off the annual, look at the recommendations list do the airframe first then the mandatory instruments, then the things you's just like to change. Ask yourself whether this is the plane that you want to fly IMC in for years. Likely a mounted iPad with Foreflight would be sensible. When you want to sell this plane it's likely to find a buyer if it's economical to buy and fly - you will not get much money back for OTT add-ons.
Couple of things, GTX345 is ADS-B in/out and will cost around $4500, I’m guessing you meant a GTX335. That’s ADS-B out only. Not a big deal as a GDL5x series Garmin or stratus will make up for it if you fly with foreflight or Garmin Pilot, but they will not feed info to an IFR GPS like a 430W or a GTN650. I’m not sure where you’re going to go with ownership of this plane, but remember that adding the G5s, while a little more money up front, will also add value to the plane, rebuild analog gauges will not. They also provide additional redundancy and eliminate the concern of vacuum pump failure in IMC since you’re starting your IFR training. My biggest fear as I start my IFR is vacuum pump failure because it’s so prevalent, it’s why I’m going to duel G5’s and a 650. Just my .02! Really enjoy your videos and looking forward to seeing your IFR training!
tmdowell Thanks yes I did mean of 335 and I may just hold off till next year to get the 2G fives because it just comes down to money thing if I had $30,000 to spend of course I do it but I just don’t and I have to do it right.... thanks for watching and thanks for your comments!
I agree. While upgrading a panel can be a significant investment it also can maintain or increase the value of the plane. I’m over 50 as well and the one thing my partners and I realized is that our Bonanza was actually going down in mkt values because of our old panel. In doing some research I came to the conclusion that younger pilots want the modern equipment. If they trained at a moderately size flight school there is a possibility the 172 the trained on had a G1000 flt deck. If they want to buy a plane to build hours or get their IFR like you are doing, they will not want an older system that they don’t know. If this is going to be your long term aircraft then refurbishing the current systems and slowly upgrade may be the ticket.
Just another opinion. If you are not going glass and A/P and whatnot for heavy IFR (and you shouldn't in this plane because you will outgrow it), just get someone to help you asses what is in the plane and the least expensive way to get it "legal" for your rating. Like you said, it's a time builder. One other thing. I think the 345 get's you legal ADS-B. That is, ADS-B out. You may want in/out capability. I think the 355 gets you that. It's around $6K though. Just something to consider. If you really want to fly in the clouds, you are going to want to be able to see the weather, and the added benefit of traffic won't hurt either. Both could be displayed on your ipad. Where are you from? I not recognized some of the airports and scenery like the CBBT and Tangiers. Oh, one other thought. I don't think you should think of your plane as a time builder unless you are trying for an airline type job (and you don't seem to be). Think of it as an experience builder. All the flying you do along the way to some planned thing in the future is at least as good as what you are trying to get to in the future.
Go avidyne 540 and in conjunction with the Garmin 345 transponder you’ve got a good IFR platform. Don’t put the money in the g500s and instead there’s a new, just certified digital multifunction that has indicator, hsi, AHRS that can use the signal from your transponder ahrs output and has an angle of attack indicator (computed). It’s a model 30c.
I am seeing this for the first time 4 years after your post. What did you end up doing and what did it cost> What did the hardware cost and what was the labor install cost
We're upgrading our 1964 Cherokee 180 with dual G5, 650, and GTX345. That's likely an overkill for the age of our plane, but the cost is also being divided across 10 people. So getting nearly $30,000 worth of equipment and labor for $3,000 is a pretty sweet deal.
doing my panel right now. PS engineering audio panel w/remote comm, GNX 375, GTR 200, and G5 HSI. About 28K out the door. And this is a small panel upgrade. Adds up in a hurry.
This is why I've decided to go the Experimental Amateur Built category. Maintenance costs and equipment is far lower. My choice isn't for everyone though, you do have a great airplane, and I'll be interested in seeing where you go with it. I personally would put in the two Garmin G5's. The capability to later connect to an upgraded autopilot, an upgraded GPS, and with the built in battery backup option, makes it a very powerful upgrade. If you could remove all vacuum systems, your annual maintenance costs would also drop. Just a thought.
You don't need a GPS at all to do your instrument rating. You need the capability to do 1 precision approach and 2 non precision approaches. You can use your kx155 for all of those (ILS, LOC, and VOR).
Donny Hansen that will save me 5 k! I’m getting my 155 refurbished and then I’m just going to get my attitude indicator and directional Gyro reconditioned and I should be good to go!
For IFR you only need the minimum equipment to fly the approach and route of flight, minimum equipment to fly day/night VFR and IFR (grabcardd), Mode C transponder, and a pitot-static inspection. Also everything else needs to be airworthy but for IFR those are the two things you need. So yes, you can go fly IFR in a single VOR Cessna 152 and do VOR timed approaches all day provided you have had a pitot-static inspection. FAR 91.205 , FAR 23.1525 , FAR 91.411 ... Appendix E FAR 43 is mode c requirement (automatic pressure altitude reporting part of pitot-static inspection). If you intend to do instrument rating, this is a checkride question. I would encourage you to not save 5k and just get the garmin 430 with WAAS. Or better yet, get a garmin 650. You won't regret it when you actually do IFR. Or stick with the single nav /U lifestyle. You'll quickly find as a GA pilot that most small GA airports only have GPS approaches so you'll want that added utility the /G lifestyle offers you.
Have you looked at any of the uAvionix stuff? It sounds kinda interesting. Gps, ads-b in and out, pretty good prices. There's also a product out there that gives you glass panelish horizon, hdg and engine instrument read-outs. I'm looking at the 2020 mandate, too, but being retired, have to watch my champaign appetite, beer-budget thing.
raymondkoonce Yeah I have I have an upgrade it’s going to be over two years. The first plan is to get a new audio panel in a new transponder in and get my king radio refurbished and that’s gonna about to me in this year. Then next year I’m going to get 2G fives and a new GPS and if I can swing it a new aluminum panel. Anyway look at it it’s going to be about 30,000 bucks to completely redo the whole thing and make it really nice which is what I’d like to do but I may have to do that over two years
@@Over50andLearningToFly Understand completely. I was a military pilot and got used to flying with an HSI. Felt crippled with a standard GA 6-pack. Over time, I managed to get it pretty much where I wanted, with a Garmin 430W, a KX155, GTX327 Transponder, a panel mounted Garmin 696, an FCS-810 Autopilot, and an ARC-800 HSI. Had to take a bite here, then there, just like what you're planning. Then FAA came up with their 2020 mess. I'm going as cheaply as possible with that, just what it takes to comply. I enjoy going to 17,500 to much to duck and dodge their wedding cakes. I can't recommend a slaved HSI strongly enough. Makes life so much easier.
If certified; think of a number then double it. Then double it again and you'll be close. Remember purchase cost is about the same as install cost assuming you find no other problems (LOL).
I think your estimates may be off. I looked at the G5. $2,000 purchase price followed by about $8,000 for installation. The ADSB installation is pretty bad too. We got a quote for the most basic solution (Garmin GDL 82) and the installation was more than the unit. Total price was $3,800. You don’t get money back when you sell either. Money spent on avionics is just GONE. Don’t plan on people paying more just because you spent extra money on a G5 or fancy transponder. The best bet is to buy a plane somebody else upgraded.
I don't know... spending a fair amount to fix an existing panel vs. take out a loan and just modernize it. The avionics out there now hand you a new aircraft and pulls it into the modern age. I think it is worth the leap instead of small steps, especially when those steps are a dead loss in the end.
The GPS 50 60 and 65 will only give non precision approaches if it is FAA certified with a 337 field approval if the display goes out it is non repairable the Garmin non wass 430 is also non precision approach certified with a 337 certified field approval for IFR which most radio shops do not want to do look for 337 and also a placard on instrument panel which says VFR only if it still works I would keep it if updates are still availlable the Garmin 335 would make sense as You have ADSB in and it can be installed by an A&PIA instead of a radio shop
Assuming you're looking for an ifr platform... Forget the Garmin G5 and get an Aspen instead. Much more functionality including things like flight plan overlay on the hsi. Yes it's a little more money but a lot more functionality. Garmin 430 is fine but you really want the 430W... mostly because it's certified as a sole position source, doesn't have raim requirements, can feed gtx3x5 transponder (no extra antenna) and some of the 430 regular models have gone end of support and will cost a ton to have upgraded to the 430W. Might as well start off with the 430W. I'd spend more and get the GTX345 over the 335. Traffic call outs and traffic and weather on the new Aspen are awesome to have. Otherwise you're dealing with "another box" for adsb in with more wires and batteries and you're still stuck looking at the ipad for that stuff. Traffic especially is really helpful on the pfd. If you're on a budget you can get the Aspen E5 and later simply software upgrade to the pro features. E5 and dual g5 cost pretty close to the same.
@@Over50andLearningToFly Heh sorry. I just realized how old this video was and that you have the g5. The g5s are really great, just not quite as many features as Aspen. Just remember if you sell your plane you'll be right back to sorting out issues and upgrades to . There is ALWAYS something. :-)
Getting a G430W would get you lower minimums at more airports. If you just get the G430 without the W then you would not be able to shoot LPV approaches.
Id go the cheapest route possible. Chances are you will upgrade your aircraft in the next two to three years. Although it does add resale value to your plane, you won't nearly recoup the investment.
Question. I see in your videos that your plane has a dash carpet type mat to make it look better and stay cooler. Did you purchase this item or did it come with the plane when you purchased it. If you bought it can you share where I can get buy one. I have a 1978 C182 that has a ratty old dash.
Given that your existing panel is so old and in bad condition I recommend you consider buying the Dynon HDX. For about $30-$35,000 you can gut all of your existing avionics and replace it with two flat panel displays and an EFIS. Plus, you will be adding a huge amount of additional capability that you don't currently have. For example, Dynon provides an engine monitoring system and an autopilot for that price (autopilot is not currently certified for the PA28 but Dynon plans to have it certified within a year.) Given your option is to throw $10k into your plane and still be left with very minimal capability the extra money is well spent. Check out Dynon's website at www.Dynon.com/certified
Brian McGee I think I’m just gonna go ahead and use this one as a time builder instead of pouring money into it I’d rather get something a little newer and when I’m done with it I’m going to end up spending a lot of money so I might as well get something really nice for my next plane with everything in it
@ThePudge....Man you aren't kidding!...Ham radio operator and GROL. I have to play the game and have an A&P/IA i upgrade my stack. Looking forward to starting my RV-8 build and ridding myself of the high cost.
@@Over50andLearningToFly I used to fly a merlin with the 430 and it was an excellent basic gps which got me into a lot of airports with low weather. Yes the 530 and 630 are much better but the 430 is very capable! You will enjoy using your upgrade! If you were able to spring for the W ... its even better.
I had a round-table discussion with my A&P and 3 other instrument rated pilots, one of whom is a commercial pilot, about all these issues. My head was spinning with all the possibilities, from recommending a GNS 430, to specifically NOT recommending a GNS 430 (due to potential support issues from Garmin), and everything else. I really had to define my mission, which is time-building and getting my IFR rating. I decided to leave most of the equipment as-is for this year, except getting the Stratus ESGi in/out kit. My KX155 has the glideslope and the rest of the plane/panel meet the bare minimum requirements for IFR. My home airport only has an RNAV approach, however, so for practical purposes, I'll need a GPS Nav/com at some point. My only GPS is on tablet right now. Next year, I'll likely be looking to add a GPS nav/com in the form of a GNS 430 or 530, but I may just go right to an Avidyne IFD440. We'll see. It's all going to depend on how my training goes. With just the transponder upgrade, IFR cert and a few other squawk sheet items, I'll be right around $8.5k for my March annual. $10k + installation for an IFD440 just isn't in the cards right now. Even a 430W just isn't on the table this year. Totally understand where you're at.
@@Over50andLearningToFly Can't wait to see your upgrades. Great channel! I almost pulled the trigger on a 430W, but the idea that Garmin may no longer support it soon (if they still do) made me wary. I want to do a whole new panel layout, but that's about $4500 in labor alone! My panel is pretty hacked up and the layout is a little weird. So if/when I do the GPS nav/com upgrade, I'll probably have to do the new panel layout. My instructor was all about me learning IFR the "old school" way without a GPS, though. He said that it would make me a better pilot, and if/when I do upgrade to GPS, it'll be super easy.
Greg's Zenith STOL CH750 True but I think as each day passes on the reality of the GPS world that we live in is becoming more and more solid and lockdown. I think that within the next five years a lot of GA pilots will be upgrading their old steam gauges to 85 or something like that like an aspirin because costs definitely will come down and the aging fleet has to be upgraded and that’s what I am struggling with as I get into it what to upgrade. Thanks again for washing, and I’ll be putting out a program in the next few days asking pilots over 50 to share their stories because over 50 and learning to fly.com is coming soon!
@@Over50andLearningToFly Yep, totally agree. GPS is just the way things are now, but at least I can get my rating without it. If I keep the plane long term, I plan to replace the AI/DG with either 2 Garmin G5s or an Aspen unit, so I can get rid of my wet sump vacuum pump and greasy belly.
To simply get a private pilot certificate it is cheaper to just rent an airplane and hit close the minimum requirements. Now if you want to fly corporate you'll need to build up a decent amount of time. It is potentially cheaper to buy an aircraft and do most or all of your training in that airplane.
Just curious. Do you actually GO anywhere? I mean, quite a few "cross countrys, like 200 miles or more? Or, are you an "over 50" weekend flyer, who flys "around" your local airfield area, or goes to the "fly- in" breakfasts? If all that I've said is true, I have some unsolicited advice for you. Get rid of that General Aviation "money pit" (are you really trying to save back 15K for that possibly "bad" annual?) That's right - deep six that plane and BUILD and FLY your OWN plane! It's that simple. So it takes you a year to build your plane. It's fun! I've built three of the Experimental Amature Built" airplanes. I got tired of renting GA planes and they were expensive to rent. Your home-built can be a IFR certified plane - just have to put the "goodies" in your panel. BUT! If you don't "go anywhere" you really don't need the IFR equipment - the IFR training - the IFR currency requirements - don't need any of that expensive stuff. You can build a nice home built flyer for under 25 or 30,000 dollars. Or pay 50K for a home built. All price ranges. Nice little planes - they can be "built" from Wood and Fabric - or they can be "assembled" out of aluminum. My last home built only would cruise at 75mph, but I got to the "Hundred dollar hamburgers" - got to the breakfasts. Tried to put 1,000hrs on it, but only got a little over 750hrs before I retired it. You do your own maintenance - you do your own Annual condition inspections. A hell of a lot more fun than the GA airplanes. Try it, you'll like it. :) N-6395T (last one, ret. ) p.s. a couple pieces of equipment generally required: Transponder and ADS-B, The rest of your panel you can design. Hey, how about a nice hand-held radio? And, you can make your own VHF antenna which will TX and RX for miles!
Michael Donavon Thanks Michael! Yes I do actually go places and I’m not one of those pilots who just goes for the $400 hamburgers I actually go to Florida and West Virginia and Ohio and New York and I do get around a lot plus I fly other aircraft as a mission pilot to Belize Honduras and all throughout Florida so I get around quite a bit. I don’t think doing a Home built is the way for me because I rebuild a couple of boats in my lifetime and although I really liked it I just don’t want to repeat the process again at this point I would just like to write a check and get an airplane! Thanks for watching!
Wait till the annual and tear all that crap out of there. Then install an Aspen EFD1000. They're upgradable and you can pay as you go later for hazard awareness etc. I think you'd be money ahead and have the beginnings of a great panel. Then when you're feeling it some day get the S-Tec 2100 autopilot and ACU upgrade. Cost effective and most bang for the buck and just as good a capability as a full Garmin glass system. You won't be disappointed. You can see some similar setups here on Utoob. th-cam.com/video/nh9JUh5dfeE/w-d-xo.html // th-cam.com/video/muSdDwATW84/w-d-xo.html
Do what I did. Sell out and stop flying. Cut your financial hemorrhage while you still can. Check for wing corrosion under your headliner so your wing won’t come off before you have time to sell. Just a few thoughts.
I'm 38 and considering taking the leap to get my pilot's license. I also can afford a Cessna 172. The planes I see are from the 60s and 70s. My experience with owning multiple old cars allows me to understand that I'll put an order of magnitude more into a plane. Cost of ownership always has to be considered. Your videos have helped me build a realistic picture of what 172 ownership is like and they've nudged me over the edge to actually pursue real world flying. I appreciate you!
Beat the crap out of a rental and then get your own. Also, you may want to make sure you actually get your certificate first.
Just happened upon your videos and glad I did. I’m 54 and just purchased my first plane myself, a 1966 Cherokee 180. I’m going through similar thought processes for upgrades and enjoy watching your videos. I look forward to watching more.--Bret
Bret Kruthoff awesome- keep me posted!
Bret Kruthoff May I ask the price you paid for the 180?
nice cardinal... my family had one and I learned to fly in it.. one thing concerned me... you admitted you didn't know if the instruments worked or not... that's not a rental... you own it... there's no excuse for not knowing the operational status of all equipment on board.. from a map light to your CDI... you should have known before you bought it.. but for sure by now.. you may not know it's exact accuracy... but you can tune a VOR and see if it cross checks with the other radio... fly to it and see if it's below you.. see if the flags swap when you cross.. follow a gliseslope on a visual... etc.. I check out everything in every plane I fly.. I sure don't want any surprises at the the wrong time.. and I know every squawk on every bird I own at all times.. that's just responsibility.. if you do have an inop instrument... label it as Inop.. that way if by chance someone else ends up flying it.. they aren't relying on a bad instrument... hope you'll take this as encouragement... sorry if it sounded harsh.. just worries me when I see pilots/owners oblivious to important issues surrounding aviation.. other than that... good job... and I agree with the guy who said refurb old instruments won't increase the value.. hold out for the g5/345/430 or better yet a 650... the cardinal actually brings decent resale when well equipped... plus you'll be setup for a modern digital autopilot too.. and you can ditch the vacuum system... and the heavy gyro instruments.. saving weight... increasing useful load... making that 150hp seem like a bigger engine just sayin.. I wouldn't spend a dime on that panel if you aren't going the right direction.. just my 2 cents.. I subbed.. congrats on ownership... looking forward to seeing your progress.. enjoy
Texas Tyranny Response Team Absolutely and there are upgrades coming check out the last few of my programs where I’m taking it down to get upgrades on it -thanks for watching!
@@Over50andLearningToFly I have.. saw you took it to Sarasota.. they do nice work.. looking forward to seeing the new panel.. having grown up in the cockpit of a cardinal, it's nice to see them getting some love... when I was 16, with 8 hours and my solo fresh under my belt... my dad sold the cardinal and bought a new Mooney M20K... I finished my private and got my IFR, and commercial in the Mooney.. that was 34 years ago... every time I see a cardinal on a ramp it takes me back.. cheers..
@NonyaBusiness! If you plan on getting a 182 you'll need additional training because of the constant speed prop. Insurance is going to be high due to low time.
Til you are past and passed the annual inspection then look only at things that really need replacing, particularly the transponder which may be an FAA mantatory update.
When the inspector signs off the annual, look at the recommendations list do the airframe first then the mandatory instruments, then the things you's just like to change. Ask yourself whether this is the plane that you want to fly IMC in for years.
Likely a mounted iPad with Foreflight would be sensible.
When you want to sell this plane it's likely to find a buyer if it's economical to buy and fly - you will not get much money back for OTT add-ons.
Seymour Pro you are right! I was just going over this tonight and I am going to take the path of least resistance - fly it and then get another .... 😆
Couple of things, GTX345 is ADS-B in/out and will cost around $4500, I’m guessing you meant a GTX335. That’s ADS-B out only. Not a big deal as a GDL5x series Garmin or stratus will make up for it if you fly with foreflight or Garmin Pilot, but they will not feed info to an IFR GPS like a 430W or a GTN650. I’m not sure where you’re going to go with ownership of this plane, but remember that adding the G5s, while a little more money up front, will also add value to the plane, rebuild analog gauges will not. They also provide additional redundancy and eliminate the concern of vacuum pump failure in IMC since you’re starting your IFR training. My biggest fear as I start my IFR is vacuum pump failure because it’s so prevalent, it’s why I’m going to duel G5’s and a 650. Just my .02! Really enjoy your videos and looking forward to seeing your IFR training!
tmdowell Thanks yes I did mean of 335 and I may just hold off till next year to get the 2G fives because it just comes down to money thing if I had $30,000 to spend of course I do it but I just don’t and I have to do it right.... thanks for watching and thanks for your comments!
I agree. While upgrading a panel can be a significant investment it also can maintain or increase the value of the plane. I’m over 50 as well and the one thing my partners and I realized is that our Bonanza was actually going down in mkt values because of our old panel. In doing some research I came to the conclusion that younger pilots want the modern equipment. If they trained at a moderately size flight school there is a possibility the 172 the trained on had a G1000 flt deck. If they want to buy a plane to build hours or get their IFR like you are doing, they will not want an older system that they don’t know. If this is going to be your long term aircraft then refurbishing the current systems and slowly upgrade may be the ticket.
Just another opinion. If you are not going glass and A/P and whatnot for heavy IFR (and you shouldn't in this plane because you will outgrow it), just get someone to help you asses what is in the plane and the least expensive way to get it "legal" for your rating. Like you said, it's a time builder. One other thing. I think the 345 get's you legal ADS-B. That is, ADS-B out. You may want in/out capability. I think the 355 gets you that. It's around $6K though. Just something to consider. If you really want to fly in the clouds, you are going to want to be able to see the weather, and the added benefit of traffic won't hurt either. Both could be displayed on your ipad. Where are you from? I not recognized some of the airports and scenery like the CBBT and Tangiers. Oh, one other thought. I don't think you should think of your plane as a time builder unless you are trying for an airline type job (and you don't seem to be). Think of it as an experience builder. All the flying you do along the way to some planned thing in the future is at least as good as what you are trying to get to in the future.
alienxyt You’re exactly right! And I like your thinking. Thanks for watching and it is an experience builder!
Go avidyne 540 and in conjunction with the Garmin 345 transponder you’ve got a good IFR platform. Don’t put the money in the g500s and instead there’s a new, just certified digital multifunction that has indicator, hsi, AHRS that can use the signal from your transponder ahrs output and has an angle of attack indicator (computed). It’s a model 30c.
I am seeing this for the first time 4 years after your post. What did you end up doing and what did it cost> What did the hardware cost and what was the labor install cost
It’s all there on the next series of videos - thanks for watching!
We're upgrading our 1964 Cherokee 180 with dual G5, 650, and GTX345. That's likely an overkill for the age of our plane, but the cost is also being divided across 10 people. So getting nearly $30,000 worth of equipment and labor for $3,000 is a pretty sweet deal.
Mike Bohlmann yes that is good ! Thanks for watching!
Oh, and in our research, we found a used 430 in good condition isn't much cheaper than a new 650.
Mike Bohlmann that’s why I think I’ll wait a year and get a 650
@@Over50andLearningToFly I have a buddy that just bought a 650 out of a wrecked plane in AZ. saved 10k
Brad Gray How did he do that? Who did you go through can you give me a name? 😆
Friend, we're not getting any younger and deserve to enjoy life. Install what makes you smile.
doing my panel right now. PS engineering audio panel w/remote comm, GNX 375, GTR 200, and G5 HSI. About 28K out the door. And this is a small panel upgrade. Adds up in a hurry.
Yes it does but you will be so pleased with the new instrumentation and the safety factor alone is worth it. Thanks for watching!
This is why I've decided to go the Experimental Amateur Built category. Maintenance costs and equipment is far lower. My choice isn't for everyone though, you do have a great airplane, and I'll be interested in seeing where you go with it. I personally would put in the two Garmin G5's. The capability to later connect to an upgraded autopilot, an upgraded GPS, and with the built in battery backup option, makes it a very powerful upgrade. If you could remove all vacuum systems, your annual maintenance costs would also drop. Just a thought.
P Toth thanks ! Thanks for watching !
That’s what is in store for next year .....
You don't need a GPS at all to do your instrument rating. You need the capability to do 1 precision approach and 2 non precision approaches. You can use your kx155 for all of those (ILS, LOC, and VOR).
Don’t I need a backup or can I do it with just the 155?
@@Over50andLearningToFly You only need 1 nav receiver. I'm working on mine right now with a nav/com, com and dme.
Donny Hansen that will save me 5 k! I’m getting my 155 refurbished and then I’m just going to get my attitude indicator and directional Gyro reconditioned and I should be good to go!
@@Over50andLearningToFly I'm enjoying learning the "old school" way with no GPS. Foreflight with georeferenced charts will be your friend.
For IFR you only need the minimum equipment to fly the approach and route of flight, minimum equipment to fly day/night VFR and IFR (grabcardd), Mode C transponder, and a pitot-static inspection. Also everything else needs to be airworthy but for IFR those are the two things you need. So yes, you can go fly IFR in a single VOR Cessna 152 and do VOR timed approaches all day provided you have had a pitot-static inspection. FAR 91.205 , FAR 23.1525 , FAR 91.411 ... Appendix E FAR 43 is mode c requirement (automatic pressure altitude reporting part of pitot-static inspection). If you intend to do instrument rating, this is a checkride question.
I would encourage you to not save 5k and just get the garmin 430 with WAAS. Or better yet, get a garmin 650. You won't regret it when you actually do IFR. Or stick with the single nav /U lifestyle. You'll quickly find as a GA pilot that most small GA airports only have GPS approaches so you'll want that added utility the /G lifestyle offers you.
Have you looked at any of the uAvionix stuff? It sounds kinda interesting. Gps, ads-b in and out, pretty good prices. There's also a product out there that gives you glass panelish horizon, hdg and engine instrument read-outs. I'm looking at the 2020 mandate, too, but being retired, have to watch my champaign appetite, beer-budget thing.
raymondkoonce Yeah I have I have an upgrade it’s going to be over two years. The first plan is to get a new audio panel in a new transponder in and get my king radio refurbished and that’s gonna about to me in this year. Then next year I’m going to get 2G fives and a new GPS and if I can swing it a new aluminum panel. Anyway look at it it’s going to be about 30,000 bucks to completely redo the whole thing and make it really nice which is what I’d like to do but I may have to do that over two years
@@Over50andLearningToFly Understand completely. I was a military pilot and got used to flying with an HSI. Felt crippled with a standard GA 6-pack. Over time, I managed to get it pretty much where I wanted, with a Garmin 430W, a KX155, GTX327 Transponder, a panel mounted Garmin 696, an FCS-810 Autopilot, and an ARC-800 HSI. Had to take a bite here, then there, just like what you're planning. Then FAA came up with their 2020 mess. I'm going as cheaply as possible with that, just what it takes to comply. I enjoy going to 17,500 to much to duck and dodge their wedding cakes. I can't recommend a slaved HSI strongly enough. Makes life so much easier.
If certified; think of a number then double it. Then double it again and you'll be close. Remember purchase cost is about the same as install cost assuming you find no other problems (LOL).
I think your estimates may be off. I looked at the G5. $2,000 purchase price followed by about $8,000 for installation. The ADSB installation is pretty bad too. We got a quote for the most basic solution (Garmin GDL 82) and the installation was more than the unit. Total price was $3,800. You don’t get money back when you sell either. Money spent on avionics is just GONE. Don’t plan on people paying more just because you spent extra money on a G5 or fancy transponder. The best bet is to buy a plane somebody else upgraded.
I am 49 and starting down the road for PPL
I don't know... spending a fair amount to fix an existing panel vs. take out a loan and just modernize it. The avionics out there now hand you a new aircraft and pulls it into the modern age. I think it is worth the leap instead of small steps, especially when those steps are a dead loss in the end.
The GPS 50 60 and 65 will only give non precision approaches if it is FAA certified with a 337 field approval if the display goes out it is non repairable the Garmin non wass 430 is also non precision approach certified with a 337 certified field approval for IFR which most radio shops do not want to do look for 337 and also a placard on instrument panel which says VFR only if it still works I would keep it if updates are still availlable the Garmin 335 would make sense as You have ADSB in and it can be installed by an A&PIA instead of a radio shop
Assuming you're looking for an ifr platform...
Forget the Garmin G5 and get an Aspen instead. Much more functionality including things like flight plan overlay on the hsi. Yes it's a little more money but a lot more functionality.
Garmin 430 is fine but you really want the 430W... mostly because it's certified as a sole position source, doesn't have raim requirements, can feed gtx3x5 transponder (no extra antenna) and some of the 430 regular models have gone end of support and will cost a ton to have upgraded to the 430W. Might as well start off with the 430W.
I'd spend more and get the GTX345 over the 335. Traffic call outs and traffic and weather on the new Aspen are awesome to have. Otherwise you're dealing with "another box" for adsb in with more wires and batteries and you're still stuck looking at the ipad for that stuff. Traffic especially is really helpful on the pfd.
If you're on a budget you can get the Aspen E5 and later simply software upgrade to the pro features. E5 and dual g5 cost pretty close to the same.
I think I am going to sell the plane and upgrade... :-)
@@Over50andLearningToFly Heh sorry. I just realized how old this video was and that you have the g5. The g5s are really great, just not quite as many features as Aspen. Just remember if you sell your plane you'll be right back to sorting out issues and upgrades to . There is ALWAYS something. :-)
You should look at the Aspen E5. It will replace the AI/DG and you can lose your vacuum system.
Absolutely!
Getting a G430W would get you lower minimums at more airports. If you just get the G430 without the W then you would not be able to shoot LPV approaches.
Ils
Id go the cheapest route possible. Chances are you will upgrade your aircraft in the next two to three years. Although it does add resale value to your plane, you won't nearly recoup the investment.
Darth Yeti your right and that’s the approach I am going to take - more to come !
Question. I see in your videos that your plane has a dash carpet type mat to make it look better and stay cooler. Did you purchase this item or did it come with the plane when you purchased it. If you bought it can you share where I can get buy one. I have a 1978 C182 that has a ratty old dash.
Just a thought - any aircraft scrap / breaker yards nearby. Should be able to pickup parts at reasonable cost
Given that your existing panel is so old and in bad condition I recommend you consider buying the Dynon HDX. For about $30-$35,000 you can gut all of your existing avionics and replace it with two flat panel displays and an EFIS. Plus, you will be adding a huge amount of additional capability that you don't currently have. For example, Dynon provides an engine monitoring system and an autopilot for that price (autopilot is not currently certified for the PA28 but Dynon plans to have it certified within a year.)
Given your option is to throw $10k into your plane and still be left with very minimal capability the extra money is well spent.
Check out Dynon's website at www.Dynon.com/certified
Thanks- the plane isn't worth a Dynon, I am putting a garmin 355 in it- then thats it ... :-) Thanks for watching!
Compare the cost of the G5s to Dynon. Also look at a used avidyne 440 vs a Gar430...
Brian McGee I think I’m just gonna go ahead and use this one as a time builder instead of pouring money into it I’d rather get something a little newer and when I’m done with it I’m going to end up spending a lot of money so I might as well get something really nice for my next plane with everything in it
....the benefits of DIY "Experimental". :-)
@ThePudge....Man you aren't kidding!...Ham radio operator and GROL. I have to play the game and have an A&P/IA i
upgrade my stack.
Looking forward to starting my RV-8 build and ridding myself of the high cost.
So how did it turn out?
Best thing I ever did !
Curious if you’re going to Sun n Fun? Would love to chat . Awesome videos. Thanks again.
Piper Pilot yes - I’ll be there - just message me in this channel and we can meet up
go for the garmin
Robert Gelley I did !
@@Over50andLearningToFly I used to fly a merlin with the 430 and it was an excellent basic gps which got me into a lot of airports with low weather. Yes the 530 and 630 are much better but the 430 is very capable! You will enjoy using your upgrade! If you were able to spring for the W ... its even better.
I had a round-table discussion with my A&P and 3 other instrument rated pilots, one of whom is a commercial pilot, about all these issues. My head was spinning with all the possibilities, from recommending a GNS 430, to specifically NOT recommending a GNS 430 (due to potential support issues from Garmin), and everything else. I really had to define my mission, which is time-building and getting my IFR rating. I decided to leave most of the equipment as-is for this year, except getting the Stratus ESGi in/out kit. My KX155 has the glideslope and the rest of the plane/panel meet the bare minimum requirements for IFR. My home airport only has an RNAV approach, however, so for practical purposes, I'll need a GPS Nav/com at some point. My only GPS is on tablet right now. Next year, I'll likely be looking to add a GPS nav/com in the form of a GNS 430 or 530, but I may just go right to an Avidyne IFD440. We'll see. It's all going to depend on how my training goes. With just the transponder upgrade, IFR cert and a few other squawk sheet items, I'll be right around $8.5k for my March annual. $10k + installation for an IFD440 just isn't in the cards right now. Even a 430W just isn't on the table this year. Totally understand where you're at.
Greg's Zenith STOL CH750 thanks so much Greg! Yeah we’re just about in the same place and I’ll be putting all my upgrades on the TH-cam channel!
@@Over50andLearningToFly Can't wait to see your upgrades. Great channel! I almost pulled the trigger on a 430W, but the idea that Garmin may no longer support it soon (if they still do) made me wary. I want to do a whole new panel layout, but that's about $4500 in labor alone! My panel is pretty hacked up and the layout is a little weird. So if/when I do the GPS nav/com upgrade, I'll probably have to do the new panel layout. My instructor was all about me learning IFR the "old school" way without a GPS, though. He said that it would make me a better pilot, and if/when I do upgrade to GPS, it'll be super easy.
Greg's Zenith STOL CH750 True but I think as each day passes on the reality of the GPS world that we live in is becoming more and more solid and lockdown. I think that within the next five years a lot of GA pilots will be upgrading their old steam gauges to 85 or something like that like an aspirin because costs definitely will come down and the aging fleet has to be upgraded and that’s what I am struggling with as I get into it what to upgrade. Thanks again for washing, and I’ll be putting out a program in the next few days asking pilots over 50 to share their stories because over 50 and learning to fly.com is coming soon!
Sorry I used speech to text I mean G5 and aging fleet....😆
@@Over50andLearningToFly Yep, totally agree. GPS is just the way things are now, but at least I can get my rating without it. If I keep the plane long term, I plan to replace the AI/DG with either 2 Garmin G5s or an Aspen unit, so I can get rid of my wet sump vacuum pump and greasy belly.
I could tell ya what to purchase, but you wouldn't like me spending *your* money.
Buy the best you can afford. *Do what you must to be safe!*
Ppl cheaper in my plane or theirs I'm 48 not getting younger. Want to fly corporate.
David Davis it’s all possible!!!
To simply get a private pilot certificate it is cheaper to just rent an airplane and hit close the minimum requirements. Now if you want to fly corporate you'll need to build up a decent amount of time. It is potentially cheaper to buy an aircraft and do most or all of your training in that airplane.
Just curious. Do you actually GO anywhere? I mean, quite a few "cross countrys, like 200 miles or more? Or, are you an "over 50" weekend flyer, who flys "around" your local airfield area, or goes to the "fly- in" breakfasts? If all that I've said is true, I have some unsolicited advice for you. Get rid of that General Aviation "money pit" (are you really trying to save back 15K for that possibly "bad" annual?) That's right - deep six that plane and BUILD and FLY your OWN plane! It's that simple. So it takes you a year to build your plane. It's fun! I've built three of the Experimental Amature Built" airplanes. I got tired of renting GA planes and they were expensive to rent. Your home-built can be a IFR certified plane - just have to put the "goodies" in your panel. BUT! If you don't "go anywhere" you really don't need the IFR equipment - the IFR training - the IFR currency requirements - don't need any of that expensive stuff. You can build a nice home built flyer for under 25 or 30,000 dollars. Or pay 50K for a home built. All price ranges. Nice little planes - they can be "built" from Wood and Fabric - or they can be "assembled" out of aluminum. My last home built only would cruise at 75mph, but I got to the "Hundred dollar hamburgers" - got to the breakfasts. Tried to put 1,000hrs on it, but only got a little over 750hrs before I retired it. You do your own maintenance - you do your own Annual condition inspections. A hell of a lot more fun than the GA airplanes. Try it, you'll like it. :) N-6395T (last one, ret. ) p.s. a couple pieces of equipment generally required: Transponder and ADS-B, The rest of your panel you can design. Hey, how about a nice hand-held radio? And, you can make your own VHF antenna which will TX and RX for miles!
Michael Donavon Thanks Michael! Yes I do actually go places and I’m not one of those pilots who just goes for the $400 hamburgers I actually go to Florida and West Virginia and Ohio and New York and I do get around a lot plus I fly other aircraft as a mission pilot to Belize Honduras and all throughout Florida so I get around quite a bit. I don’t think doing a Home built is the way for me because I rebuild a couple of boats in my lifetime and although I really liked it I just don’t want to repeat the process again at this point I would just like to write a check and get an airplane! Thanks for watching!
The answer to all of this
Garmin G1000
Wait till the annual and tear all that crap out of there. Then install an Aspen EFD1000. They're upgradable and you can pay as you go later for hazard awareness etc. I think you'd be money ahead and have the beginnings of a great panel. Then when you're feeling it some day get the S-Tec 2100 autopilot and ACU upgrade. Cost effective and most bang for the buck and just as good a capability as a full Garmin glass system. You won't be disappointed. You can see some similar setups here on Utoob. th-cam.com/video/nh9JUh5dfeE/w-d-xo.html // th-cam.com/video/muSdDwATW84/w-d-xo.html
I’m going to get a new plane before I do that! And a new plane is in my near future… Stay tuned! Thanks for watching!
@@Over50andLearningToFly not a 182?!!! a 210? multi? back to struts? What do you have right now? looks like early 70's 177 fixed gear?
Genda Minoru fixed gear ...
Do what I did. Sell out and stop flying. Cut your financial hemorrhage while you still can. Check for wing corrosion under your headliner so your wing won’t come off before you have time to sell. Just a few thoughts.
Then why are you still watching aviation upgrade videos?