Novitiate | Based on a True Story
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ส.ค. 2024
- Novitiate is a tidy little story. It’s fictitious of course, but it fits the oral histories I’ve read about the period. It also delves into the problems of the time, with physical penance, cloisterestration, and other issues. This an excellent exploration of the changes that Vatican II wrought. Check it out if you can.
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references:
McDannell, Colleen. The Spirit of Vatican II: A History of Catholic Reform in America. New York: Basic Books, 2011. amzn.to/2uXXqAN
Rogers, Carole Garibaldi. Habits of Change: An Oral History of American Nuns. 2nd Ed. 1996; Oxford, UK: Oxford University Press, 2011. amzn.to/2Oppcyy
www.npr.org/20...
www.vox.com/cu...
en.wikipedia.o...
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Wiki: Novitiate is a 2017 American drama film written and directed by Maggie Betts. Starring Margaret Qualley, Melissa Leo, Morgan Saylor, Dianna Agron, Julianne Nicholson, Liana Liberato, Denis O'Hare, and Maddie Hasson, the film follows a young woman (Qualley) who starts to question her faith as she trains to become a nun.
The Second Ecumenical Council of the Vatican, commonly known as the Second Vatican Council or Vatican II, addressed relations between the Catholic Church and the modern world.[2] The council, through the Holy See, was formally opened under the pontificate of Pope John XXIII on 11 October 1962 and was closed under Pope Paul VI on the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception on 8 December 1965.
Several changes resulted from the council, including the renewal of consecrated life with a revised charism, ecumenical efforts towards dialogue with other religions, and the universal call to holiness, which according to Pope Paul VI was "the most characteristic and ultimate purpose of the teachings of the Council".[3]
According to Pope Benedict XVI, the most important and essential message of the council is "the Paschal Mystery as the center of what it is to be Christian and therefore of the Christian life, the Christian year, the Christian seasons".[4] Other changes which followed the council included the widespread use of vernacular languages in the Mass instead of Latin, the subtle disuse of ornate clerical regalia, the revision of Eucharistic prayers, the abbreviation of the liturgical calendar, the ability to celebrate the Mass versus populum (with the officiant facing the congregation), as well as ad orientem (facing the "East" and the Crucifix), and modern aesthetic changes encompassing contemporary Catholic liturgical music and artwork. Many of these changes remain divisive among the Catholic faithful.[5]
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Hashtags: #history #Novitiate #Vatican2 #review #BasedOnATrueStory
Can’t wait for Vatican 3: The final battle
LOL
I’m gonna say it, Novitiate is one of the best films I’ve seen in a long time. The history is on point, the acting is remarkable, the camera tells its own story.
Vatican 2: electric boogaloo
or Vatican 2: Judgement Day
Good job A Lad Excellent Xylophone
"Atrocity Denialists are the most sinful Conspiracists."
I love it!!
@Qwerty not really, from an atheists perspective a sin is simply a deed that goes against the word-users moral code and the word user beliefs that this deed should be punished
@Qwerty and I said that an atheist would sincerely say it bc he means a worldly punishment instead of a devine one
Interesting- having worked with non-cloistered Catholic nuns in a non-profit, I can tell you that modern nuns are often the most effective and practical people you would ever want to meet. These are people living their faith and helping to bring change to the world.
Novitiate was a decent film but there was one huge plot hole - the protagonist wasn't Catholic. It's not possible for a non-Catholic to become a Catholic nun. They could've just included a scene where she gets baptized, but they don't. They drop the bombshell and then just ignore it like it wouldn't be an issue
Actually the mom described herself as a lapsed Catholic, so she was probably baptized in infancy. A lot of not- necessarily- devout Catholics will still baptize their kids, because that’s what you do.
Does it? I thought it explicitly said she wasn''t Catholic. I'll have to re-watch it but that's what I remember seeing and reading elsewhere about the film. @@kellyalves756
Michael Kleen The priest in the beginning recognized her and bugged her about lack of attendance- plus he knew Evelyn by name and commented about how much she’d grown. ( maybe she didn’t overtly claim to be catholic, but I’m pretty sure she acknowledged she was part of that congregation.)
Anyway, the point is, it’s feasible that someone would baptize their child at infancy and cease to attend church. Pretty common, actually.
Cathleen is devoutly Catholic. It’s just that she was raised by a lapsed Catholic/atheist who didn’t bring her up in the traditions steadfastly.
“Atrocity denialists are the most sinful conspiracists” preach bother preach!
I'm glad you covered this. I downloaded this a while back but I never watched it. I need to give it a shot!
The film does depict the Second Vatican Council as a sort of liberalizing council, while in reality it was intended to be more of an updating, an addressing the issues of modern times (as it did back in 1962-65.) Also, the changes were not always negatively received, as is depicted in the film (though, in some cases, it was.) In reality, most of the changes were received with enthusiasm and optimism, with people believing that such changes would reinvigorate the Church. How it was implemented was done piecemeal and hasty, with changes in the liturgy happening almost literally overnight. While this whole topic can't be adequately explained in a single post on TH-cam lol, we should keep in mind that the film depicts only one side of the changes, not how it was received everywhere and by everyone.
ALL catholic women were required to wear a head covering when in church until Vatican II. Many believed they should wear it outside of church as well. As someone who covered for quite a while myself and who still covers inside of religious buildings I found it a bit odd that this wasn’t mentioned in the ground shaking changes you mentioned. It’s a shame no one remembers this anymore. My grandparents tell of a time when if you forgot your scarf you would be forced to wear a napkin on your head. Yet my parents thought headscarves were a primarily Muslim dress. Muslims barely even wore headscarves until the 70s! The world really doesn’t have much of a memory.
The film is fascinating considering the rediscovery of old customs in the Catholic Church. The Mass in Latin is seeing a resurgence, especially with young Catholics like myself. I always remember listening to elderly parishioners in my church saying that after the Council, the Church went on free-fall, especially in regard to the liturgy. Hope to check that out and maybe consider making a video on the Catholic Church in America.
as ex catholic i prefer the mass in the native language at least you understand the meaning of the words. i sincerly doubt that a mass in latin will survive the XXI it was a good change. and if you ask the new generation of priest a lot of them found a lot of meaning in the words of the bible, something that would be a little bit more difficult if that was in latin.
Also you have to take into account that part of the persistence of the Church in Latin America (different to its gradual decline in Europe, even in traditionally Catholic countries like Spain, Portugal or Italy) was the Liberation theology, that detach the ideas of Catholicism with those of the Right wing dictators the Church usually historically supported. And that Liberation thelogy had II Vatican Council as one of their direct inspirations.
@Qwerty I did not weight on the heretical or non heretical nature of it, rather in the influence it had on the persistence of Catholicism in Latin America as an important societal player in difference to Europe. A movement can be heretical and still hold influx on society. I would gladly invite you to point the lie in my initial comment with in mind.
If we can get a Vatican 2 why not a despacito 2
I like your commentary just as well. I’m interested in entrepreneurial women of the gold rush/ transcontinental railways times. My G-G-G grandmother owned a mountain in the Rocky Mountains where she put up a hostel tavern/brothel and I never hear much about women like her except for the small usual handfuls.
The Papal Tiara was the coolest crown ever
Why "was" any new pope can still be crowned with it.
They just *choose* not to....
@@jesusgonzalez6715 I always wonder what kind of reasoning goes behind their decision making on these subjects, I imagine something like, "pink silk slippers check, embroidered robes check,lace trimmed undergarments check, fur lined pellegrina check, papel tiara che- no wait people might think that's overdoing it, before you know it the'll accuse me of being gay or something,no just to be safe let's go with a red saturno, yes the good old saturno, it even sounds masculine!"
I was just talking about this movie the other day, and I couldn’t remember the title. Thanks for the reminder. I love your videos.
On the whole Spanish Inquisition thing, afaik, it was not as big of an atrocity as some English speakers tend to believe but it was an atrocity nonetheless. Imho, I think Cipher's tangential description of the issue is accurate: not such a deal as the holocaust, nor pure Spanish sanctity.
This opinion comes from someone who studied the Spanish Colonial period at some depth.
Yes, I feel like with the Spanish Inquisition (And the whole Spanish colonization affair also) there is this weird confrontated two sides, where either the Spanish were total monsters that killed every heretic and opressed indians jsut because or they were total saints, specially comapred to other colonizer nations. It's like the reaction to the Spanish black legend is not to reexamine history and find the thruth, but to créate another legend but thorugh rose-colored glasses. And then thing lies in between, the Spanish Inquisition did atrocities, mainly towards jews and protestants and mostly at the begging and while they only directly killed at msot over 10.000 people of the over 150.000 judged, it's also true that acquital was quite rare and the penance could be quite harsh, like prison or gallies,a side from other less severe but still not pleasant punishment like public shaming, heavy fines, exile, etc. and the same could be said about the colonial efforts, where specially at the begging there was a dinamic of protection for the natives from the Crown and explotation from the colonists and encomenderos (and that dynamic was not equal in all parts and with all native groups)
1:32 They remade Ben Hur? But... But... Blasphemy!
Huh? Ben Hur remake? What remake? Doesn't exist. Nope.
The new Ben Hurt is a new adaptation of the novel, unlike the 1959 version which is a remake of the 1925 silent movie
You mean the gay love story starring Charlton Heston - unbeknownst to Charlton Heston?
*Heresy!*
I remember going to first grade and being taught by nuns. Sometimes I thought they were harsh, but life is harsh so you have to shape up.
Okay: to begin with, I have to say that I loved this film! In fact, it's one of the best ones I've seen all year, and it was the type of film that sorta lingered with me for a long while after seeing it. That being said...the critical part of my brain still told me that there was just that tiny little bit of the 'Awful Disclosures of Maria Monk' vibe to it. And no, I'm not even referring to the profuse utilisation of lipstick within this cloistered convent. My power of suspension of disbelief is AWESOME!!! It's just that I found it a wee bit silly how two gorgeous nuns with shaved hoo-haws (????!!!!!!) suddenly starting lezzing out because one of them touched her hand for a few seconds the day before...literally no previous interactions between them to speak of. I guess that scene was inevitable, probably becuase of the actors in question: one is the daughter of Andie MacDowell and Paul Qualley (who both used to be models), and the other one was actually a French model. I suppose that the screenwriter almost HAD to write that in, given those fortuitous genetic circumstances. That being said, I have to reiterate my previous sentiment ... this was a quite palatable and extremely entertaining fare!!!
I read the scene as a chance for both women to feel physical touch - Sister Cathleen has never experienced any type of intimate contact, not from a boy nor a girl. Sister Emanuel seemed the more daring type of the two, hence her initiating the first touch. I think the ambiguity around her leaving her first convent alludes to the idea that she left as she probably had a thing with a woman there too. You can also see that sister Emanuel does become fascinated by Cathleen, her watching her at dinner. In the end sister Emanuel denounces her title, to the others she is leaving due to Vatican two, but to us and potentially Cathleen we understand she has a deeper meaning for leaving. The seen represents so much more than just two attractive women making out. It shows how repressed nuns are from feelings, how alone Cathleen feels, that same-sex love should not be seen as dirty but that was just my take.
they just added the Gay parts for better viewing or so they thought, that was unnecessary the movie was good until they through that in.
No actually. It was also a big part of the movie, it showed the desperation for affection and comfort. It's not just "gay parts". They have a deeper meaning.
Thanks for the recommendation! :)
The inclusion of Tom Lehrer is reason enough to like this video!
I don't know much about the newest historiography on the Spanish Inquisition. Would you say that the Wikipedia article is accurate or did it fall prey to denialist vandalism?
Another thoughtful exploration of this period is the Australian miniseries Brides of Christ which is available on TH-cam,
She told her mother she was in love with God. Th mother responded as if she was jealous, even angry 😠. I found that horrible, we should pray/ wish to be sob
Don't bury the lead you begin with Lesbians not end that's hook that gets the crowd. 😁
This might just be me but how come every time I here about Vatican II it’s bringing in liberalization but with negative side effects?
I’m gonna have to watch this now
Its fictional, but stuff like this tin to happen: changing the way order runs. At least that's what I'm understanding from this considerably.
1-Amazing review.
2-I see you're a man of fine taste and culture. How long you've been listening to Tom Lehrer?
I didn't expect those comments
VATICAN 2 BABY!!!!
Should rate an oldie like A Bridge Too Far
Tom Lehr! Vatican Rag is one of my favourites.
As a Lutheran, especially from one of the very conservative synods, we're raised with. . . I don't want to say a hatred for, but there is a certain small level of animosity between us. Semi-serious jokes saying that the Pope is the Anti-Christ are fairly common for us. Seeing things like this, and I do intend to find a copy to watch, I feel pity and sympathy for what people within Catholicism have gone through over the centuries. We are all of the same race, after all, and taking delight in the misery and persecution of others is vile. To overcome our nurtured differences and see each other as equals is sometging everyone needs to do.
Sorry, Vatican 2 did not change the liturgy. Get your facts right.
"I don't think that word means what you think it means"
@@CynicalHistorian This word?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_(liturgy)
OK, so you do believe that Vatican II didn't change liturgy? What is this then: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Vatican_Council#Liturgy
and that's actually a pretty small explanation, given so much changed. If you want to get a fuller picture, check this book out: amzn.to/2uXXqAN
@@CynicalHistorian Those changes were very limited compared to the changes introduced a few years later by the pope St. Paul VI (they were simply limited, no reference needed). What we see now is nothing what the Council allowed for.
Do Mississippi Burning, please
Some of the older nuns were were worse than harsh .
You should go over
We shall never forget them
Eureka! I’ve found a more embarrassingly historically inaccurate movie than Braveheart. Novitiate is a film about a young woman entering a convent during the turmoil following the Second Vatican Council. It the first five minutes we see the protagonist going to church in 1954 and immediately the priest is wearing Novos Ordo vestments. Most bizarre of all is the fact she’s allowed to profess a religious vocation without even being baptized. Take that in for a second for how poorly researched this film is. The ordinary (and completely superficial) traits of Latin language and ad orientem in the Traditional mass are explained as being peculiar, there are free standing altars, nuns are portrayed in the tried trope as sadists, and the council is referred to as Vatican II even though that term wasn’t coined until the 70s. But hey, there is a lesbian make out scene so it won the Sundance Film Jury Choice Award.
This is one of the reasons Christianity is declining while a certain other religion is growing. When you liberalize something too much, that thing usually loses all meaning and dies. I'm not for or against what the Catholic church did though.
The thing is, Church is inherently conservative organisation with conservative members, who don't like change. So the changes don't attract modern people (as it is still Church), but it sometimes loses those traditionalists. My guess that's the main reason Catholic church is still against contraception - because the only way to gain new members is to have them born into it.
@@AisteOsinskyte Yeah basically. They've had a shortage of priests and nuns since I was attending as child in the 90s as well. Probably an issue long before I was born.
1:12 My friens Cristero Warrior (under his current Tecumesh account) has responded to your video. Atheist historian Tim O'Neil has demonstrated that only 3,000-5,000 people were killed during the Spanish Inquisition.
Change is necessary if there is ever to be progress.
I think it makes sense that anyone should be allowed to be considered holy not due to any ranking in a church but through hard work and dedication to their belief (and also by improving on the faults of said belief)
Im an atheist, but even I think meritable actions should be whats judged for a religion, anyone who wants to consider themselves holy sure as hell can't get their by secluding themselves in some monastery far away from the real problems of the world, they need to actively be participating in places and helping people that need help regardless of the doctrine of those they help.
Its only then that anyone can consider themselves "holy" in my book.
A disturbing film