Really cool fix! I would not have suspended the bad ADB chip causing all those issues. Also, incidentally, from my understanding the Apple branded ADB chip is just a PIC microcontroller as well. Anyway, great fix!
Another retro machine saved! The original ADB chip is likely a PIC microcontroller - it's got the Microchip logo on it. Excellent work on the part of the person who created a modern replacement for it! You might have more luck with a SMD CR2032 battery holder because the pads extend out the ends of the package.
Thank you! Someone mentioned the SMD pad - indeed the pads are the right distance but unfortunately on the SE there is not enough clearance for the size anyways - the holder is 20mm and I've got 18mm :( Thanks for watching!
It was. The code was pulled off it by a Johan Grip and John McMasters - they took a physical chip, broke it open to get to the silicon, imaged it using a metallurgical microscope and read the 1's and 0's from the hardcoded memory to get most of the code out.
Tony, I enjoyed your informative video very much. Thank you for kindly mentioning my video about the extender cable. I have updated my SE Reloaded BOM with the PIC16F88 drop-in replacement solution, and I also posted about that in the "Macintosh SE - PLCC ADB Adapter board" thread on TinkerDifferent. It's a wonderful solution for people who need a working ADB chip on an SE motherboard! 👍
Hi Tony. I can watch your videos for hours to be honest. Always interesting and informative. But, I do understand that long videos can be off-putting for some people. I'd say 30 minutes is just about right. I do still feel slightly disappointed when they come to an end though 🙂 I've learnt a lot from YT videos recently, and yours are no exception. Keep up the good work, as your knowledge and no nonsense presentation is a breath of fresh air.
Wow-I’ve not seen the ADB chip go bad before! One thing to note re: ADB Macs: the ADB connections are not hot swappable. So be sure to have the power off when connecting or disconnecting them! Thanks for another great episode!
I can confirm I did not hot-swap the ADB on that Mac, the ADB definitely failed by itself! :) I am used to PS/2 which is also not hot-swappable so I didn't dare doing that with ADB! Thanks! That series was cool! You'll get to the "restoration" video soon I guess :)
Glad it was the ADB. I will have to look into those boards from Kai and the PIC/code for the other machines. My issue with the 128K was the resistor pack and not the VIA. Thanks for the great video!!!
great video Tony. I have done tests with different sockets for vintage chips. My conclusion was that machined sockets are very unreliable for use with reused chips. In production they cut the legs of the chips and the legs become to short to make a reliable connection in macined sockets. If the system ever becomes glitchy, try with dual-wipe sockets
Oh really? And I thought it was the opposite. Thanks for that. That said, those IC legs are pretty long so I don’t think I’ll have issues, but I’ll bear that in mind for sure. All my other sockets are dual wipes but they tend to deform when a non-perfectly straight leg is plugged in. Multiple use usually result in a permanent damaged socket in my experience. But it might have been the quality of the sockets I used. Thanks for watching!
In general, it's a good idea to match the socket with the type of pin it's designed for. So round sockets for round pins, dual wipe for flat pins, and female pin header type sockets for square pins.
@@SanguineBrah My understanding was that those round machined pins were better at everything. If you look inside there is basically a clamp mechanism but as Epictronics says, it might not work with short legs. My only concern is that I tested dual-wipe ones before and they get damaged with pulled chips - that is, the spring opens and does not return to the original position, leaving a small gap and becoming unreliable with other chips. And by looking online I thought the turned pin ones were the solution. I will re-evaluate this - I think I'll start with "where do I find good quality dual-wipe sockets?" :) Thanks for your comment!
@@tony359 Yes, I've had the same issue with salvaged chips damaging the sockets too. I've taken to going over the legs with flux and solder wick before I put them to use and this seems to help a lot of the time.
@@SanguineBrah The issue is that once those sockets are damaged you need to replace them which always puts some stress on those old PCBs. I was hoping turned pins were the solution...
Thanks for your input and for your kind comment! I think my mental maximum is 40m - but I might try to keep them to 30 in the future. What is better: one episode of 45m or two of 25m? :) Talk to me, TH-cam Algorithm :)
An SMD CR2032 holder fits the original pads perfectly. I have replaced the 1/2AA holder on almost all of my Macs with them, works great! Just tin the bottom of the battery holder leads, apply a blob of glue in the center for better stability, put the holder on the board and heat the leads with your iron to melt the preapplied solder to the board's through-hole pads.
@@kpanic23 YT is weird, it allows some but not all. Would you mind dropping me a quick email? Address is under "about" on my channel. Appreciated, thanks!
Hi Tony - thanks for the mention - if it helps, in the Github for the SE Reloaded board, i've also put the Sprint Layout file. This can be used in Sprint with the 'test' function, allowing you to see where each and every pin and trace connects to - highlighted for you. Helps massively with debugging. Also, the GLU chip next to the ADB Chip is also a simple HAL16L8, and Jon/Porchy from JammaArcade has helped massively to reverse engineer the equation map for it. This equation map can be programmed to an ATF16V8 and used as a direct drop in replacement. Phil Greenland has also recently fully reverse engineered a drop in replacement for the RTC chip, too. And as of today, with the recent unveiling of the schematics for the 1985 'YACC' project from Apple, I think i just found how the Sony branded/manufactured 'SND' chip works, on a schematic level. The BBU (basically an amalgamation of all the PAL's from the Macintosh Plus - see here for more info: tinkerdifferent.com/threads/everything-you-wanted-to-know-about-the-bbu-but-were-afraid-to-ask.880/ ) has also been imaged on a silicon level, just needs someone to decode the functionality...also, luck would have it, it's a VTi (later, VLSI) VGC1900 series off-the-shelf part and we also happen to have the manual for how the gates look on the silicon so....yeah, nearly there with a 1:1 off-the-shelf repro of the Mac SE, just the SWIM left for someone to have a go at! :D
Thanks for watching and commenting - what you are saying is impressive! And also useful as I have two more SE's to troubleshoot! Too bad I have a 1.44MB drive I was hoping to re-use but, as you say, the SWIM is still to be hacked! Thanks for all your amazing efforts!
I like the way you tackle this mac problem.. you really go all the way with the diagnostic.. very enlighting.. as for the battery even though the other soution is aesthetically more pleasing I like the fact that you stick with your own cause it gave the SE a more personalise touch..👍🏻
I'm glad you enjoyed that, thanks for your nice words! I have often the feeling that not many viewers like the in-depth sessions with the oscilloscope! Thanks for watching!
Nice work Tony! I have little interest in Mac's myself but I enjoy your repair process and methodology. Nice video work too! Oh, your battery solution is just the job!
In the 90's I worked in IT and i remember throwing hundreds, maybe, thousands of 80's machines in the dumpsters. I regret it so much. The only ones I kept were an SGI, cause it wasn't even that old when they told us to chuck it, and some 386 and 486 machines, that I took PSU's and HDDs and ram from.
@@tony359 For me is not the money, it just haunts me how wasteful it was and what I would give to have some of my old hardware back. I once chucked out a dual socket 7 board with 2x 233mmx chips because AT psu were getting scarce and "who would ever care about this old crap"....
@@RachaelSA tell me about that. I chased an Apple //e for years before I could find one at a reasonable price nearby. My mom had it when I was a kid and I wanted one! 🙂
Hi, Tony. Congrats with the success of this part of the repair. Great job! What's for the optimal video duration, for me it's around 40-45 min. I watched some of your older 50 min. videos and enjoyed them a lot. This one felt a tad bit too fast, like you were trying to squeeze the material that you have in the target time. The soldering episodes seemed to suffer the most from this :) And I am not sure if I like it or not. Certainly, I don't like the very light feeling of haste that the video induces. Anyway, it was a lot of fun to watch, I very much appreciate your work! And good luck with the rest of the repair!
Thank you, I appreciate your input. It's not easy to balance things as different people have different expectations. I tend to rush the soldering parts as I think "we all know how that works", maybe I could show a minute and then speed up as I appreciate not everybody does soldering every day. I'm glad you enjoyed the video anyways and your comments definitely help in shaping my future ones! Thanks for watching!
@@tony359 "I could show a minute and then speed up as I appreciate not everybody does soldering every day" - that's exactly one of the ways it could be shown that I thought of :)
Oscilloscope diagnostics of logic is not boring but very interesting.😉 Don't retrobright it, has more downsides then it's worth and it will just become yellow again.
But I bought 20L of peroxide (not kidding!) :D I'll think about that. I feel if it's done carefully it can work. My Apple //e keyboard is still looking good after a couple of years. But I hear you! I'm super glad you enjoyed the scope diagnostic and thanks for watching!
@@tony359 good to hear you had good results, I did a couple of attempts but had a number of issues. if done correctly can look great don't get me wrong but the yellowing just screams retro if you ask me. It can also make the plastic more brittle making it prone to breaking. As an example I had a mouse that broke all the screw standoffs during assembly after a retro bright attempt, it was a relatively common test item so no real loss. But what ever you decide it's already great you got it working so far.
@@samuraidriver4x4 I completely understand your point, and I assume that with a good clean that case would look good. I'll think about it but as a "tinkerer" I might not resist the urge to experiment/learn/break things :) It is indeed a good feeling to see that think working now!
Tony, Is it possible we could obtain the dead ADB chip from your board for decapsulation/silicon die imaging to see what went wrong with it? Some people on the discord (including myself) where the replacement ADB chip was created are curious about that version of the ADB chip your system had in it, since it is an earlier one.
Really cool fix! I would not have suspended the bad ADB chip causing all those issues. Also, incidentally, from my understanding the Apple branded ADB chip is just a PIC microcontroller as well.
Anyway, great fix!
Thank you Adrian! It was a fun journey indeed - one of those unexpected ones which surprises you at every corner! Thanks for watching!
Another retro machine saved!
The original ADB chip is likely a PIC microcontroller - it's got the Microchip logo on it. Excellent work on the part of the person who created a modern replacement for it!
You might have more luck with a SMD CR2032 battery holder because the pads extend out the ends of the package.
Thank you! Someone mentioned the SMD pad - indeed the pads are the right distance but unfortunately on the SE there is not enough clearance for the size anyways - the holder is 20mm and I've got 18mm :( Thanks for watching!
It was. The code was pulled off it by a Johan Grip and John McMasters - they took a physical chip, broke it open to get to the silicon, imaged it using a metallurgical microscope and read the 1's and 0's from the hardcoded memory to get most of the code out.
@@ukmk3supra I read that on the description of the project - truly impressive! Thanks for your comment!
Tony, I enjoyed your informative video very much. Thank you for kindly mentioning my video about the extender cable. I have updated my SE Reloaded BOM with the PIC16F88 drop-in replacement solution, and I also posted about that in the "Macintosh SE - PLCC ADB Adapter board" thread on TinkerDifferent. It's a wonderful solution for people who need a working ADB chip on an SE motherboard! 👍
Thank you for suggesting that incredibly easy and cheap solution!
Hi Tony.
I can watch your videos for hours to be honest. Always interesting and informative. But, I do understand that long videos can be off-putting for some people. I'd say 30 minutes is just about right.
I do still feel slightly disappointed when they come to an end though 🙂
I've learnt a lot from YT videos recently, and yours are no exception.
Keep up the good work, as your knowledge and no nonsense presentation is a breath of fresh air.
Thanks for the feedback and for your kind words!
Wow-I’ve not seen the ADB chip go bad before!
One thing to note re: ADB Macs: the ADB connections are not hot swappable. So be sure to have the power off when connecting or disconnecting them!
Thanks for another great episode!
I can confirm I did not hot-swap the ADB on that Mac, the ADB definitely failed by itself! :) I am used to PS/2 which is also not hot-swappable so I didn't dare doing that with ADB!
Thanks! That series was cool! You'll get to the "restoration" video soon I guess :)
@@tony359 oh GOOD! I’m glad you already knew about that!!
There is nothing wrong with long videos. It's better so we can know all the problems and how you came about finding the solutions.
Thank you, I appreciate your feedback! Thanks for watching!
Glad it was the ADB. I will have to look into those boards from Kai and the PIC/code for the other machines. My issue with the 128K was the resistor pack and not the VIA. Thanks for the great video!!!
Thank you for watching!
great video Tony. I have done tests with different sockets for vintage chips. My conclusion was that machined sockets are very unreliable for use with reused chips. In production they cut the legs of the chips and the legs become to short to make a reliable connection in macined sockets. If the system ever becomes glitchy, try with dual-wipe sockets
Oh really? And I thought it was the opposite. Thanks for that. That said, those IC legs are pretty long so I don’t think I’ll have issues, but I’ll bear that in mind for sure. All my other sockets are dual wipes but they tend to deform when a non-perfectly straight leg is plugged in. Multiple use usually result in a permanent damaged socket in my experience. But it might have been the quality of the sockets I used. Thanks for watching!
In general, it's a good idea to match the socket with the type of pin it's designed for. So round sockets for round pins, dual wipe for flat pins, and female pin header type sockets for square pins.
@@SanguineBrah My understanding was that those round machined pins were better at everything. If you look inside there is basically a clamp mechanism but as Epictronics says, it might not work with short legs. My only concern is that I tested dual-wipe ones before and they get damaged with pulled chips - that is, the spring opens and does not return to the original position, leaving a small gap and becoming unreliable with other chips. And by looking online I thought the turned pin ones were the solution. I will re-evaluate this - I think I'll start with "where do I find good quality dual-wipe sockets?" :) Thanks for your comment!
@@tony359 Yes, I've had the same issue with salvaged chips damaging the sockets too. I've taken to going over the legs with flux and solder wick before I put them to use and this seems to help a lot of the time.
@@SanguineBrah The issue is that once those sockets are damaged you need to replace them which always puts some stress on those old PCBs. I was hoping turned pins were the solution...
Great video on all …good day tony …cheers from Canada 🇨🇦 🎉😊
Hello there Canada, thank you for watching! 🙂
45 minutes is a good length too ;) very good job it is a pleasure following you
Thanks for your input and for your kind comment! I think my mental maximum is 40m - but I might try to keep them to 30 in the future. What is better: one episode of 45m or two of 25m? :) Talk to me, TH-cam Algorithm :)
it is very interesting to see how this machine works. 👏👏
Thank you!
Good job Tony! Keep up the great work.
Thanks for watching!
Thanks for a very educational video. Great stuff!
I’m happy you liked it thanks for watching!
An SMD CR2032 holder fits the original pads perfectly. I have replaced the 1/2AA holder on almost all of my Macs with them, works great!
Just tin the bottom of the battery holder leads, apply a blob of glue in the center for better stability, put the holder on the board and heat the leads with your iron to melt the preapplied solder to the board's through-hole pads.
I’ll look into that, could you share a link? Thanks for watching!
@@tony359 I have tried, but TH-cam kills any comment with a URL
@@kpanic23 YT is weird, it allows some but not all. Would you mind dropping me a quick email? Address is under "about" on my channel. Appreciated, thanks!
Hi Tony - thanks for the mention - if it helps, in the Github for the SE Reloaded board, i've also put the Sprint Layout file. This can be used in Sprint with the 'test' function, allowing you to see where each and every pin and trace connects to - highlighted for you. Helps massively with debugging. Also, the GLU chip next to the ADB Chip is also a simple HAL16L8, and Jon/Porchy from JammaArcade has helped massively to reverse engineer the equation map for it. This equation map can be programmed to an ATF16V8 and used as a direct drop in replacement.
Phil Greenland has also recently fully reverse engineered a drop in replacement for the RTC chip, too.
And as of today, with the recent unveiling of the schematics for the 1985 'YACC' project from Apple, I think i just found how the Sony branded/manufactured 'SND' chip works, on a schematic level.
The BBU (basically an amalgamation of all the PAL's from the Macintosh Plus - see here for more info: tinkerdifferent.com/threads/everything-you-wanted-to-know-about-the-bbu-but-were-afraid-to-ask.880/ ) has also been imaged on a silicon level, just needs someone to decode the functionality...also, luck would have it, it's a VTi (later, VLSI) VGC1900 series off-the-shelf part and we also happen to have the manual for how the gates look on the silicon so....yeah, nearly there with a 1:1 off-the-shelf repro of the Mac SE, just the SWIM left for someone to have a go at! :D
Thanks for watching and commenting - what you are saying is impressive! And also useful as I have two more SE's to troubleshoot! Too bad I have a 1.44MB drive I was hoping to re-use but, as you say, the SWIM is still to be hacked! Thanks for all your amazing efforts!
I like the way you tackle this mac problem.. you really go all the way with the diagnostic.. very enlighting.. as for the battery even though the other soution is aesthetically more pleasing I like the fact that you stick with your own cause it gave the SE a more personalise touch..👍🏻
I'm glad you enjoyed that, thanks for your nice words! I have often the feeling that not many viewers like the in-depth sessions with the oscilloscope! Thanks for watching!
@@tony359 yes.. I really like the scope part.. the binary overlay is very informative thank you..
@@maltronik Amazing, thank you!
Nice work Tony! I have little interest in Mac's myself but I enjoy your repair process and methodology. Nice video work too! Oh, your battery solution is just the job!
Thank you as usual!
In the 90's I worked in IT and i remember throwing hundreds, maybe, thousands of 80's machines in the dumpsters. I regret it so much. The only ones I kept were an SGI, cause it wasn't even that old when they told us to chuck it, and some 386 and 486 machines, that I took PSU's and HDDs and ram from.
Well, that's unavoidable unfortunately. Who would have thought that old junk would be valuable one day! :)
@@tony359 For me is not the money, it just haunts me how wasteful it was and what I would give to have some of my old hardware back. I once chucked out a dual socket 7 board with 2x 233mmx chips because AT psu were getting scarce and "who would ever care about this old crap"....
@@RachaelSA tell me about that. I chased an Apple //e for years before I could find one at a reasonable price nearby. My mom had it when I was a kid and I wanted one! 🙂
Hi, Tony. Congrats with the success of this part of the repair. Great job!
What's for the optimal video duration, for me it's around 40-45 min. I watched some of your older 50 min. videos and enjoyed them a lot. This one felt a tad bit too fast, like you were trying to squeeze the material that you have in the target time. The soldering episodes seemed to suffer the most from this :) And I am not sure if I like it or not. Certainly, I don't like the very light feeling of haste that the video induces.
Anyway, it was a lot of fun to watch, I very much appreciate your work! And good luck with the rest of the repair!
Thank you, I appreciate your input. It's not easy to balance things as different people have different expectations. I tend to rush the soldering parts as I think "we all know how that works", maybe I could show a minute and then speed up as I appreciate not everybody does soldering every day. I'm glad you enjoyed the video anyways and your comments definitely help in shaping my future ones! Thanks for watching!
@@tony359 "I could show a minute and then speed up as I appreciate not everybody does soldering every day" - that's exactly one of the ways it could be shown that I thought of :)
Oscilloscope diagnostics of logic is not boring but very interesting.😉
Don't retrobright it, has more downsides then it's worth and it will just become yellow again.
But I bought 20L of peroxide (not kidding!) :D I'll think about that. I feel if it's done carefully it can work. My Apple //e keyboard is still looking good after a couple of years. But I hear you!
I'm super glad you enjoyed the scope diagnostic and thanks for watching!
@@tony359 good to hear you had good results, I did a couple of attempts but had a number of issues.
if done correctly can look great don't get me wrong but the yellowing just screams retro if you ask me.
It can also make the plastic more brittle making it prone to breaking.
As an example I had a mouse that broke all the screw standoffs during assembly after a retro bright attempt, it was a relatively common test item so no real loss.
But what ever you decide it's already great you got it working so far.
@@samuraidriver4x4 I completely understand your point, and I assume that with a good clean that case would look good. I'll think about it but as a "tinkerer" I might not resist the urge to experiment/learn/break things :)
It is indeed a good feeling to see that think working now!
Pioneer Denon Onkyo receiver video banaye sir.
Tony, Is it possible we could obtain the dead ADB chip from your board for decapsulation/silicon die imaging to see what went wrong with it? Some people on the discord (including myself) where the replacement ADB chip was created are curious about that version of the ADB chip your system had in it, since it is an earlier one.
Absolutely, where are you based? Would a hi-res picture of the faulty chip help in the meantime?
It's already been decapped - the raw images are public, but i'm just searching for a stitched one :)
@@ukmk3supra the 342-0440-A is decapped? I thought only the -B version was.
@@ukmk3supra Amazing news! Where can I find those images? I'm just curious.
😀
*unpress
Yep, I realised that when it was too late 😂
Cool video Tony, The 30 min video are perfect also. Cheers from Australia
Thank you for watching!