Live Tech Talk - Chain vs Gear Drive Cams - Kevin Baxter - Pro Twin Performance
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ก.พ. 2019
- For this live tech talk we discuss the basics of flywheels, oil systems, along with comparing chain vs gear drive cams in your Harley Davidson.
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Y’all should appreciate this. I spent 2 years and 30,000$ to go to school for this level of instruction and what we call “theory”. This is how we’re taught in school to be techs. Pay attention and appreciate this. You sir are doing good things. Thank you.
Thank you very much sir. I appreciate the kind words.
Yea thanks I'm thinking of making the change .Found a deal on some after market gear driven cams
Kevin Baxter. How I wish you were my local mechanic!
Thank you sir.
Man, this guy is so effective with conveying his knowledge and I am very thankful for all of it! Great information, thanks to putting in the time and effort to make educational videos.
What a great technical lesson Kevin is giving us here. I still think this raises serious questions about the engine design and the old fashioned crankshaft arrangement.
Way too many people think they can just buy a kit and throw in a gear drive, and they do not understand all of the different tolerances involved. This is an excellent explanation of why you really can't just do that. I've seen shops that do it and it doesn't take long for things to go very bad.
I put S&S gear drive in my 2001 Deuce. When the motor was opened the chain tensioner were fine at 15000 mi. I loved the S&S gear drive. I put over 50k miles on it before trading it in. It took me out west twice from Kentucky. I remember the little test display by S&S sent to builders. It showed the difference in the drag on the motor. The gear drives, they were selling, turned a lot easier the cam chain tensioner system.
My second video, and probably my 20th on this subject, but this is the best one by a good measure. Now, if I can find someone with this level of knowledge to do mine.
The MOST in depth explanation of flywheel runout,thanks so much
You are welcome! Thank you for watching. Glad it helps.
i'm one of those low budget guys. i replaced my cam tensioners on my 2002 Electra glide classic with the stock tenioners. they lasted 28k miles & i figured i probably wouldn't put another 10k miles on this bike. i didn't want to cut the pushrods , so i disassembled from top down. it came out good, all new gaskets, 'o' rings where needed & the stock oil pump was good. i did the whole job for less than $200. i enjoyed your video & you explained it very well...
great job terry. thanks for posting!
yup this is why I LOVE my OLD panheads and my shovels too. You may be faster with your TC and M8 but I just keep putting along. put put put . LOL. Did I mention I have a few ironheads? OL SKOOL.
Kevin, your advice has been invaluable in guiding me to make my 01 FXDX into my perfect ride. I went with gear drive, forged cam plate, new oil pump, Jagg cooler, .510 cams. Sorry, I just saw that we can buy parts through your shop. From now on, that's what I'll do. You're my go to program, along with Gixxer Foo for all my information. THANKS!!
Great explanations. Thoroughly enjoyed .. worth watching and listening repeatedly
Thank you Sir! I love all your educational videos. You are a great instructor and I’m learning so much from you.
Very informative! Very well presented! Very easy to understand! Thank you so much Kevin for sharing your knowledge.
Glad you enjoyed it! Youre welcome. Thanks for the kind words and for following.
Such a great video!
Thanks Kevin, for your knowledge!
(My eyes and ears, are just like glued to your experience/explanations/videos!)
Thanks Kevin. I appreciate you look at budgets. For some of us that is a key determining factor it what we do. Great information.
Very much worth the time to watch the entire video!
I stumbled across this video just recently. In my opinion Kevin gave an excellent explanation as to the twin cam drive problem. On my last 2 twin cam bikes, the first thing I did was to bring them to my mechanic (Who I thoroughly trust) and convert to gear drive. My mechanic is the kind of guy who will not sell you something if it is not going to work.
I currently ride a 2003 Electra Glide Classic. It my be 16 years old but it will out run most new bikes. It's all in the step by step build up approach. Below is my build. Torque & HP are unbelievable. I live in North Carolina and I would not hesitate to jump on it and go cross country.
Ported & Polished Heads
KibbleWhite Black Diamond Performance Valves (Intake & Exhaust)
KibbleWhite High Lift Springs, Collars, & Keeps
Ampco Valve Guides
S&S 9.7/1 Pistons
S&S Rocker Arms
S&S Rocker Shafts
Andrews EZ Install Chrome/Moly Push Rods
HD High Performance Lifters
Delkron Cam Plate
Andrews Gear Drive Set
Andrews 54G Gear Drive Cam
HD Stage 1 EFI Kit
Big Sucker Air Filter
Dynojet Power Commander Power Tuner
Rhinehart True Dual Exhaust
Baker DD6 Six Speed Transmission
Braided Clutch & Throttle Cables
Muller Power Clutch
Hats off to Kevin. Great Tech Talk and I have just subscribed to your channel.
Thanks for the kind words and for following the channel Paul. Good on ya for keeping that 2003 rolling. I kick myself everyday for selling my 2006.
Wow it must be nice to be able to afford that kind of build, Unfortunately I have been unemployed since I got Hep c in 2015, it took me 3 years to come up with the 100,000 for the cure, depleted my savings, and now, well lets just say I am scraping by with my 03 soft tail, and Ill be lucky to be in a position to fix it to ride this year....maybe the Harley Gods will intervene...LOL .....but I doubt it
Thank you sir , you are very good at explaining what is going on and what needs to be done . I appreciate you and look forward to learning what i can from you. Thanks again
I certainly appreciate your technical breakdown on these v-twins. Very concise. Especially for those of us whom have all the interest but never took or had the time to gather our own tangible knowledge. Your material has tremendous value. Great instruction. Thanks again.
Great video Kevin. I cant tell you how much I appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge with those of us who enjoy doing our own wrenching. I have never watched any of your videos with out coming away with a pearl of info. Good job.
Thank you very much for the kind words, following, and sharing sir. I greatly appreciate it.
this video, teaching about cam plate and cam-drive options is invaluable. years later I still refer back to it. if I lived in GA. I would drop my 01Electra glide off to you for a cam chest update. tks so much for sharing, keep em coming, and happy holidays.
Great explaination! I always learn a lot of your video’s. Thankyou! You sure have great knowledge of it all. Keep on with this good stuff. 👍👍
Thank you Kevin for a very informative video. I’m subbed to your channel . I have learn so much and I’m living proof that you can teach an old dog new tricks.. good job.
Thank you so much sir. I appreciate it greatly.
Chain drive is ultimately more forgiving of H-D's poor manufacturing...thank you for this great video!
Watching your videos from over here in Germany. Your amount of knowledge is amazing. Thank you for the information. 😁
Thank you sir! Appreciate your support.
Looking strongly at a 2001 Night Train with about 16k miles on it. Was very concerned about this issue, but this video definitely helped me understand it much better. Awesome detail and thoughtfully laid out. Happy to subscribe to your channel and very much appreciate you sharing your obviously deep knowledge!
Awesome video. I went with a Screaming Eagle hydraulic kit on my 06 Ultra Classic. My oil pressure greatly improved even at idle. And thanks to the guy who pulled up beside me on the street and gave me a heads up on the potential issues with these model years. I had no idea. Back to the video, it was a great learning experience, as I love to learn how things work. Thank you for taking the time.
Thanks for watching and for the kind words. Appreciate it.
What you don’t know is... there’s heavy casting flash inside the case oil passenges.
The camp late had a pressure leak at the bypass valve.
They had you buy a corrected design part to fix there “recall parts!”
They didn’t do you any favors bra!!
Yo make things even worst. Flyby wire throttle plain suck!! They claim there’s “performance, normal and bad weather modes. I’m calling “ bulls&”):!! Just a variable $1.00 resistors built into the ecm. Nothing against you!!
.. Just Harley got us good this time!!
Larry
Very nicely done and so informative. This gives me more information of things to check out when I open things up in the winter months as a preventative measure and upgrading ideas. Keep doing what you're doing!
Glad it was helpful!
Another fantastic class at Baxter University - thank you, Professor! 👍
I enjoyed the video Kevin thank you.
I already have the s&s 509 gear cams in my 2000 RG (which I love).
And I'm chomping at the bit to compliment them with the s&s cam plate/oil pump. Also I appreciate the ballpark figures that you give on the products. It lets me know what I'm looking forward to. LOL
Wow you just gave us a college level education course. Thank you so much please keep the vids coming. Thank you also for not fluffing the videos🙏🙏🙏🤘🤘🤘
Great lesson in cam plates, runout, and the options one has for timing upgrades and repairs. Great video. Very easy to understand a very complex issue. Well done! Thank you for taking time to make this video
Thank you for taking the time to comment and for your kind words. Glad it was useful. Have many many more videos posted.
@@KevinBaxter I liked and subscribed! I'll search for others and keep an eye on any new ones you make for sure! Thanks again!
Great learning curve..for me it was anyway..i love learning new things like this..its like learning a new "trick of the trade" thanks mate..They say it's what you learn after you already know everything that counts👍👍
Thank you.
I've learnt alot from you mate. Your content is epic. Much love from Australia
This is the most thorough, best explanation of this issue.
Thank you sir.
Loads of excellent info. I know it takes time/effort to publish this stuff but it really helps some of us civilians so thank you sir!
Thanks for the kind words and for subscribing.
Kevin, that was fantastic. I have never seen your channel or any of your videos but very glad that this one popped up on my page.
I had cams and a gear drive installed on my ’04 TC at around 20k miles. I still smile when I’m riding and think about those cam tensioners being gone….peace of mind.
I’m a retired professor and I’d like to commend you on a job well done. A lot of videos are auditory with very poor visuals if even present. The level of visual that you add to your clear, concise auditory makes for an excellent, informative video…you’re a born teacher.
I have subscribed to your channel and plan to watch more of your videos.
Thanks
Very kind words Sir....thank you! If I may ask, what was your chosen career subject as a professor?
I taught some math and some business but mostly Information Technology. In the '90s, as the Director of Networking, I developed a networking program that encompassed UNIX, Novell, Microsoft, Linux and several other technologies. That industry was/is very certification driven so as part of the program we helped students obtain those certification to make them more marketable as graduates.
Ended up as an odd profession for me because growing up I hated school, hahaha. I didn't end up finishing my college education until my early 30's but prior to that I built custom cars for around 10 years. Working on engines was by far my favorite part. I specialized in Ford 427 Side Oilers and other Ford FE's.
Just finished watching the Timken conversion, excellent!
Great teacher. Easy to follow and very informative!!
The 2007-2016 Twin Cams with hydraulic chain tensioners were a great motor. I sold my 2007 Road King to have a down payment on a 2020 Road Glide. I am getting use to the Road Glide but I miss that Road King a lot.
Kevin, of all the TH-cam videos I have seen on bike repair, your videos are by far the most informative. You are putting out some very, very useful information for the rest of us shade tree mechanics. Wish you were not so far away or I would bring in my bike for some improvements.
Thanks a million for the kind words and for the sub. Hope it continues to help you. All the best!
What a great video, got a much better understanding of whats going on in my motor now. Keep up the great work!
Thank you!
@@KevinBaxter Looking at doing s&s .583 cams in my 2014 Wide Glide. Was already planning on chain drive because of the issues you talked about. But now I know to check run out regardless. Do you suggest putting a new compensator in while doing cams? Looking at Baker compensator.
If its clunky or worn, absolutely. Otherwise, run what you have for a while. Itll need one at some point.
Very informative,love the knowledge you share,fantastic
Excellent video,,amazing that people don’t consider runout in any crankshaft measurement both sides also..
Thank you for the video
Absolutely the best commentary on cam solutions on the internet! I've been lucky enough to run gear drive cams for the last 12k miles or so with no abnormal noises. Thanks for your excellent explanation of various options Kevin!
Thank you for the kind words and for following! Please check out my others on various topics.
Nicely done. The visual aids helps explain why the run-out is crucial
Hi Kevin just want to say this as been massively helpful thanks for taking the time to make the video :) Learnt a load wasn't aware of the issue on the later cranks, had an 883 iron briefly before I got made redundant when the litho print company shut. Used to have to deal with backlash on gears on Heidelbergs put a smile on my face listening about that. Was just loking at tc88 engined bikes glad I watched your video before deciding what to get next Harley wise!
Thanks for the kind words. Please be sure to check out the other videos about exhaust, efi tuning, and engine oils. By your user name, you may be interested in my latest project. A modern powerplant in a 1956 Manx.
@@KevinBaxter Thanks Kevin yep I'm 30 and use a 650ss as a daily rider and am rebuilding my Norton-Villiers 68 Commando at the moment (previous owner left blast media in the cylinder head) luckily takes a bit to kill these Norton's so I caught it just in time. Looking forward to seeing how the manxious project progresses! I'll check the other videos out never stop learning in life :)
Absolutely, the best description and information ever !
Glad you think so! Thank you sir.
@@KevinBaxter My local Cycle Shop is a brother and we are checking crank runout Monday. I get to work with him and learn. If the runout is .003 or less were ordering a complete S&S geardrive, camchest upgrade. I have a 2003 FXDWG with 11k on clock. I was hearing so much about the 510 cams, but I dont twist it often. I like the low go torque, so thinking the 509 cams.. What would you suggest ? Thanks !!
I did the runout today. It was, at or just above, .0025 .. Everything was looking very clean and no scoring on cam lobes.
Thanks Kevin. That video was very well explained and super informative. I own a 2008 twin cam and just bought a 2019 114 m8. But looking as a former mechanic to get into bikes on the side for some extra cash and to help those with older bike's that dealers are shying away from cause bike's to old thank's again well explained
Thank you sir!
sounds good to me i own a 2000 fatboy with 1500 actual miles and am a retired mold maker machinist with full roller cabinet of starett tools. so of course all the instructions must be followed and measurements taken which i would have not known without viewing the video. now i know what to check and when to check it to prevent my engine parts from scattering out on the road. thankyou and may the force be with you. will definately inspect the tensionizers when needed.
Ralf Headstrom I agree with your perspective completely. It's as if HD used it's customers for cost-effective R&D. From what I know about HD it's how they've been doing business since way BACK!! Also says why they have not been dependable!! That being said I got my 99' E-glide in for Gear Drive cam upgrade now and hope they are respectable enough to do their du-dilagence on the run outs and backlash inspections. I'm told it's a respectable shop out of Elgin IL. But first time customer. Kevin.....thanks, your video helps me tremendously. If it's noisy and Whinny it's probably not done right huh? I'll get back to you in that.....
Love these videos! Learning a lot!
Extremely helpful video lesson, thank you. I have visited 2 dealers with my 16000 mile 2003 Road King. Neither could give me any information I could use to make a decision on which solution would be best for me. I enjoy learning about the workings of my engine.
You really got me thinking now. I currently have 2007 FLHRC and I'm about to up grade to the S&S 107ci or 110ci kit. Cam plate pump heads the whole 9yrds and I was looking at Andrews 67h gear driven cams.
Kevin your videos are awsome. Keep them coming legend
Awesome video. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge. Really enjoyed it. I’m considering buying a 2000-2006 Harley and going through the engine. Your video saved me many head scratches and headaches. Thank you.
You're welcome Tim. Thanks for watching. I would highly recommend an 06 over all years. EFI was great. Trans great. Primary great. Yeah an 02 had Timken bearing cases, but if you're going thru the engine anyway, I wouldnt sweat that. Too many reasons to list why on the 06 really.
@@KevinBaxter what in 06 model that you like? Thinking of buying an 06 Street Glide. Thanks.
Now I'm an expert on explaining this thank you so much Kevin. I think I might ship my bike to you from my country if I needed the change.. :)
That was an awesome explanation of the flywheel and cam
Thank you sir. Be sure to subscribe as well.
This was great! Thanks for posting!
Thanks for following.
Awesome, perfect video man! Thank you so much 🙏
Great information, thanks for posting!
Thanks Kevin an enjoyable discussion and much appreciated🙂
Thanks for watching Garry. I appreciate it.
Great video man. Very well done and complete.
Much appreciated!
@ 29:32 Exactly what i was thinking , why not polish the chain !! Great work Kevin.
Outstanding video!! Thanks Kevin..
Thanks for the kind words and for following Bob. I have many other videos about fuel injection, drivetrain, exhaust, fuel, oils, etc. Be sure to check those out. Also...what other topics are of interest to you for future tech videos?
That was a great informative video...and it makes me want to go out and hug my 98 Harley springer with the tried and true 80 evo, thanks again it sure does bring light to the engines produced from 99 to 07.
Thanks for following
You've saved me a lot of money and bad decisions. Bought my first harley 2 days ago and needed to get some info
Thank you sir. Great breakdown and explanation.
You're welcome. Thanks for watching. Theres a ton more content on the channel if you havent browsed it yet. I appreciate the kind words.
I have been thinking since the first cam tensioner replacement, I want a gear driven set up. Awesome explanation on pros and cons. BTW I have a 99 twin cam with 100K miles and no real issues
Thank you very much!! Very helpful and information made SENSE!
Thank you
Thanxx for the video man awesome video man didn't know about run out. And if I should run gear drive or not.
Im glad for your straightforwardness, your videos. Whats been bother me is my "sloppy cam sprocket" on the crank pinion. Even whem measuring run out since you can see visibly that end is worn from the sprocket. Rn im in a dilema as what to do, i have two motors trying to make one solid one. The issue ive mentioned, im yet to decide what to do. Also i am definitely on a budget so this is a very slow build.
not really a cheap way to fix that. if the pinion is worn and a new sprocket doesnt cure it....it's time for a crank. not aware of anyone that makes a "tighter" fitting one....depends on how bad it is.
I came across your channel and thought... This guy is pretty sharp... then I thought... Pro Twin Performance... that sounds familiar... Turns out that your shop was just down the street and you sold me some parts to finish my handle bar swap and threw in some pointers and how to's for free...Top Notch.
Thank you sir!
Thanks so much for this info Kevin!!
Great info! No bluster, B.S. or sales pitch. Thanks!
Thanks Kevin! Great video. 🇨🇦
Thank you for all your time and efforts that you have and continue to upload great videos.Kevin if things have improved over there with logistic issues would you be prepared to ship parts to Australia ?, Alex
VERY informative!!! Thanks Kevin!
Very informative, thanks for the vid mate 👍🏽
Thanks for following
This dude is my role model and hero
Used to have a '41 chief, alot more dependable than ANY other motorcycle I ever owned- wish I had it now!
Incredible video! Thank you
Kevin I wish you were local in my hometown here in Northern California. I would have you constantly working on my softail.You are the greatest. GOD BLESS YOU AND YOUR FAMILY ALWAYS.ERIC
Great video Kevin, lots of great info. Thanks for sharing.
Thank you very much
Hi Kevin if you have time could you answer a question for me as I am looking at getting a new ride. In your professional opinion would go for a 2017 Fatboy S 110 over a 2019 Fatboy 114 given all the problems that they seem to have with the M8's ?? your thoughts would be much appreciated, as I am looking for it to be a keeper and I do all my own wrenching. Cheers
its hard to say honestly. at some point, there have been problems with all models...considering how many sold, it's not significantly widespread. Some are luckier than others i guess.
Thanks Kevin, I appreciate the reply. Cheers
Thank you, very informative and well presented. Even I could understand it!
Thank you very much! Appreciate the sub.
You know the British bikes went from 3 piece crankshaft to a one piece crankshaft back in the late 50s and people used to badmouth British motorcycle engineering seems like they could teach Harley a thing or two if you ask me
Good job. I would only note that true way to get 100% accurate valve timing would be a cam and lifter directly under the push rod cup end of the rocker arm. Twin cam was an improvement over the Evo's pushrod angle but since the penny pinchers at HD added 4 more valves and an oil cooler to the M8 lets forget all the marketing about the more accurate valve timing that second cam provided and they went back to one cam. I also like the earlier design of the cam plate that accommodated bearings. You dont know how many guys that wanted gear drives cams and I had to pop their bubble about their pinion shat run out. Convincing them of all the work that had to be done to true the crank was a whole ordeal
When I bought my 05 Dyna I knew that for piece of mind I would have to address the tensioner issue .
After researching the hydraulic vs gear drive solutions I looked at the Screaming eagle billet cam plate setup and it seemed to me to be the best solution for me because I'm not that interested in ultimate horsepower what I needed was longevity.
So not having to deal with problems with backlash with a gear drive was not something I wanted to deal with .
I ran a gear drive in a small block Chevy and it was noisy and I felt the roller chain would be fine with what I wanted to achieve which was reliability and long engine life so I'm happy with my decision .
If my goals were more performance oriented then gears would have been the way I would have gone .
After watching this video and finding out about the cheaper option of polishing the chain I'm still convinced I did the right thing for me .
Great video 👍
Properly set up, gear drive can be very quiet but as you said, it's not absolutely necessary and not a requirement for every build or budget. Thanks for watching.
When I was watching Kevins video I was thinking about that small block chevy set up with the gears on each side of the driven and drive gears. I think a setup like that on a smaller scale, to fit a harley, might solve the problem of runout. As far as noise......its a Harley....they are loud!
Harley twin cam should have come straight from the factory with gear drives and not chain drive chain drive are a messy way to run an engine and when they go break there goes your engine all my got bikes died from cam chain disease my gear Drive Sportster has 350 thousand miles on her bike still runs great
this was really good. I learned a ton. cool.
Thank you
Thank you for this video! This reinforces why I don't ride or own Harley's. I've owned and still own imports and have had no problems in thousands of miles. Too much mechanical drama with Harley.
Thanks for watching and following
Thank you for sharing knowledge.
Thanks for this video. It is very helpful for me.
Glad it was helpful!
I now understand ‘runout’.
Big Thank You!
Youre welcome. Glad it was helpful.
Better to learn about run-out in the video than through a bad motor.
Absolutely love your videos
Thank you very much. Glad you enjoy. Thanks for watching
As a dedicated Harley Touring bike owner, listening to this and many other tech problem solvers (all with the best intentions) makes me want to trade my baby in on a Honda.
No American feeling with Honda ..ok?..
after watching this video for the second time thru, when you said "there is really no substitute for 100% accurate valve timing" it sunk in why I should want gear drive cams, especially on a perfect crank
Excellent
Subbed. I get it now, perfectly. My tensioners are excellent right now, but will look to gear drive when time to replace. My RK has 50K miles right now. Excellent instruction video, thank you!
Thank you!
@Jim Edward my hydraulic tensioners at 68K miles looked like they should have been replaced a while ago. deep groves into the shoes, I am certain it was affecting timing.
@@hdlstns are you thinking of changing over to the gear drive and maybe installing some different cams while in there?
@@jimedward8908 yes. actually My crank ended up being out of spec on my 09 TC and Kevin is getting my cases this week and building a blueprinted 107" for me with a Man O War Darkhorse Crank, S&S cam chest (gear drives), etc. That livestream on cranks that he just did with John from Darkhorse was awesome. Lengthy, but such good information. Hard to get guys like this in a room and then get them to tell you all you ever wanted to know about motor building like that. I'm super stoked.
@@hdlstns wow, you will get a big fun-factor bump in your riding once you twist the throttle on the new motor. I agree, to get exposure to their knowledge is incredible. Have fun on your new 107!
super informative, ty
So cool that you put this out. Thank you. Sub'd
I was about to do the g.drive, until I realized the flywheel is pressed together.im returning it. That just seems like the f.wheels could be a serious problem.. another great video Kevin.
Thank you. This help me a ton.