The HLs are great and a brilliant option for golfers that need the more traditional lofting for launch and spin whilst also having the advantages of forgiveness that the HL gives 👍
If you liked the information and data, all of it is available for my TH-cam Members to access (click on the JOIN button) and compare on the new website www.askgolfnut.com The information is broken down into Tier access so depending on what info you want to have access to you can select whichever tier suits you 👍
They are replacing the Mk2 irons very very soon, hopefully I will be reviewing them soon ready for embargo. I haven't had my media samples of the ZXi irons as yet but shouldn't be long now 👍
That's my hope, is that people that are looking for the best will be able to look at my video and work out exactly which one will be, rather than videos of a pro hitting them a few times on the course and giving their opinion which is the best. I'd rather use transparent data than any form of subjective opinion 👍👍
Another great review Jay, I’m a senior with a swing speed mid seventies with 7 iron play TM stealth the QI impressed me more than I thought it would but I do like the look of the AI300. The Srixon ZX4 also impressed me but would wait for the mark 3 March/ April. Looking forward to your video on the PXG black op which is getting rave reviews but I want to see the ultimate test with your good self, could this be the one that suits me best. Can’t wait for that review it’s an early Christmas present !
Any chance you can give us an idea what the forgiveness weight looks like? Curious about this category, but also when you're talking about the players CB, does it change? And how much? Thanks for always putting high class stuff out there mate
Jay, once again you’re miles ahead of anyone else on the net. Question: I play off 16 on a tough links course so the handicap travels well. Currently playing Miz JPX923 HM pro with Nipon modus reg shaft. Struggling with my game at the moment. How do the Srixon ZX4 compare to mine? I tried the ZX5, couldn’t get on with them but I was having a bad day 😢. ZX4 standard shaft is KBS tour lite, so may help me get some height in my shots, although maybe not a good idea on a links course. 🤔
Interesting dilemma.... Assuming you haven't gone for a recent fitting at a Mizuno fitting centre to have your shaft bend profile measured so it's very difficult / impossible to guess how the change in shaft will affect ball flight. The Modus, depending on which ones are quite different bend profiles in themselves so again difficult to know how changing to a KBS Tour Lite will affect things... Really the only thing I can say is to test them at a facility that will allow both the Srixon and Mizuno options together on the same day..... Not always the easiest thing but one of the large retail stores may be able to assist with that 👍
This is a great way to do the comparison. Most other videos spend 3/4 of the time showing thee ball strikes and 1/4 the results. This is right to the point. Only question - was this all based on 7 iron?
Most of the data is from 7iron swings, some are 6 iron and i think 1 is an 8 iron. But we built all the math and values to work regardless of loft ,because even all the 7 irons arent the same loft. So comparing a 28 7iron with a 32 7 iron is no different than a 28d 7 iron and a 30d 6 iron.
Won't have to wait long. Editing it now and intend on getting it up and ready for Tuesday 3:30pm UK Time. Got Members Live Stream tomorrow evening at 7pm UK Time so busy busy busy :-)
Great comparison once again. Could you please educate me, if my thoughts about this are correct: The HM Pro's weaknesses are launch and spin. I did not notice this too much on the one short demo I had, maybe because I usually only deloft my 7- and 8-irons by about 2° or so. Also, they can be ordered up to 2° weak, which would put their lofts in the range of the JPX 923 forged. Do you think that this would help with keeping their forgiveness but also make them more playable when it comes to decent angle? (Mind you: I have only Mizuno fitters in golf shops nearby, who do the swing DNA to get the correct shaft, but they are far away from doing a complete fitting with gap testing and such. Also, they use Trackman, and not Flightscope)
Thank you for your reviews. My main miss is low on the face. After seeing your reviews, I just went and bought Mizuno 925 HM Pro. Did perform exactly as your review results indicated.
Jay, great review. Was there some reason the Titleist T350 was omitted from your comparison? As a senior golfer, the JPX925 HL is looking like a good option for me. Please keep those great reviews coming. I recommend them to all my friends.
Unfortunately the reason why all Titleist equipment was omitted from the 3 Best of videos was due to them not replying to my many forms of communication. I have emailed and called them more times than I can remember but with no reply whatsoever..... I feel that's a bit rude personally 👍
You'll find Jay mentions why no PXG and Titleist at the time , but an agreement with PXG came through later and another video was made. th-cam.com/video/RND_lot_b-0/w-d-xo.html . Along with individual reviews.
Hi Daryl really glad you enjoyed the content. Just wondering if you have had you log in details for the new website www.askgolfnut.com so you can log in and check all the heat maps for the current and upcoming 2025 equipment reviews... I'm going to be turning off TH-cam Memberships soon and hoping for my current members to migrate to the website 👍👍
Great video. Would love to see if you could get your hands on some Tour Edge 725 series irons. From what I'm hearing, all three versions are incredible. Also, I contacted Cobra this week, and the new Forge Tec and Forge Tec X irons will be out this fall.
does your chart state players HM Pro is MORE generally forgiving than game improvement HM-HL? Since looks and feel are subjective, any chance you could do a chart based on facts only? Great review as always!
Jay is there a way to see the full chart of numbers, would like to see the full fae spin rate numbers across all of the irons tested to see how they fared.
Club forgiveness dynamics are a minefield sometimes and weird situations happen regularly. It could just be that with the slightly smaller frame of the Hot Metal and the different weight distribution of the iron that the face relative to body weight means the Forgiveness tech actually works slightly better with that profile of iron... 👍 In reality you wouldn't be going wrong with either irons.
Please call me Jay, I haven't been called Jason since I was last told off for being naughty by my mum when I was a child 😊 I've done an overview Cleveland Wedges video with these covered within them on my channel listing 👍
I am the robot 😊 basically a while big bunch of swings, I've developed the skill as time has gone on reviewing equipment to be able to keep my delivery extremely similar and just miss hit the face. All this data is then dumped via csv to a master spreadsheet where the maths does the workload of working out any small face to path and dynamic loft discrepancies etc to give a true efficiency or smash factor of the location hit relative to middle centre strike. This is then plotted on a grid and overlaid onto an iron face for illustration. The percentage drop off of then given a colour gradient between Green to Red to illustrate visually the size and shape of the hottest parts of the face. It's an amazing tool and we get so much more usable data from it than just the heatmaps. All this data is available to see by my TH-cam Members and they can access the master compare file where they can compare the visual heatmaps of irons to match the best one for their known strike location miss 👍
Whether its "worth" it would be a personal choice, the 925 is a fairly big forgiveness improvement over the 923 not sure the 923 was much of a gain over the 921. I would probably consider first if there isnt something overall an improvement , check out the Players ranking video coming tuesday , and join the discord server we maybe able to find the idea club for you.
@@AskGolfNut Thanks Jay. Like all you videos, the 7w vs 4h comparison was great. However what I meant was - can you do a comparison of a range of different 7w brands and also a a comparison of a range of different 4h brands. You are the only one that has the presentation and analysis skills to do a decent unbiased comparisons of this type 🙂
Smash Factor is tied to loft, we created a new metric that adjusts out the loft on every shots smash factor. The more aggressive lofted irons tend to be aimed at max distance and have very fast face centers. Thats why they also end up closer to the top of the list.
These are all loft adjusted so in effect let's say, how fast are the faces if they were all 30 degrees. We are then effectively measuring face thickness and how high the COR is for each iron. That's why as a pattern, not a rule, the more distance inspired techy heads have a higher face speed than the pure forged blades... Again, a pattern not necessarily a rule depending on design 👍
PXG arrived late to the party to only just agreeing to supply me with samples to test. I've got the individual full forgiveness reviews on my channel now to watch. Titleist are continuing to ignore my attempts to contact them for me to be able to test their equipment 🤦🤷
it probably would but as Jay mentioned at the start of the video , Titelist doesnt respond to jays request for media samples and so he doesnt get to test them like all of the other brands.
I think game improvement iron masks whats lacking with your game. Been using jpx 923 hm before then shifted to p770. Saw whats lacking in my game and somehow improved and felt more confident especially long irons
Unpopular opinion. Unless you struggle to hit the ball in the air or are an extreme high handicap, game improvement irons hurt you more than they help you
I think for a lot of mid to high handicappers, centred strikes are not the norm. So am I right in saying the Callaway Ai Smoke would be a dangerous implement in that scenario Jay? Say only one in five shots is struck from the centre; the strikes where Callaway has rated poorly for forgiveness. Then after 4 off centre strikes, just as you’ve allowed for the mishit, on the fifth shot you cream it and get the proverbial “flyer” that goes over the back of the green! 🙄
Sometimes they may go 1/4 or even 1/2 inch longer to generate a touch more speed. It's not as a dramatic change as the loft strengthening we've witnessed over the years 👍
@@HoneyTitan I don't think they'll go any further now. They've reached the point where the head CG isn't or can't get much lower so the loft reduction offset has reached its peak. Now will come the Forgiveness era where every manufacturer will fight for the most forgiving irons. 👍
I am really surprised how much more forgiving the Hot Metal Pro is than the Hot Metal High Launch. Why do you think that might be? Also, you didn't include any hybrid irons in this. Is that because you consider hybrid irons in another category beyond super game improvement?
Yes bud the hybrid irons have Roll and Bulge faces, anything that hasn't got a flat face can't be compared directly in the same way and has to be measured in the same way we do for the Drivers etc, with Distance Factor Heat Maps 👍
I am confused as to why the Hot Metal Pro wins out on forgiveness over the Hot Metal as the slightly larger head of the Hot Metal is supposed to give you more forgiveness. Some of the other metrics here also favor the Pro over the HM. Just seems odd.
Club forgiveness dynamics are a minefield sometimes and weird situations happen regularly. It could just be that with the slightly smaller frame of the Hot Metal and the different weight distribution of the iron that the face relative to body weight means the Forgiveness tech actually work better with that profile of iron... 👍
@@AskGolfNut Thank you for your reply - especially as I am very interested in buying the Hot Metal. I tested it last month with the Dynamic Gold 105 Stiff (7-iron) and it felt really good and the results were consistent. My club head speed with 7-iron is about 85mph and my swing slightly in-to-out with a slightly open face so gentle draw is my natural shape. However, I tend to have a wandering strike, so I assumed that the Hot Metal would be best for me. I will have to test the Pro to be sure.
Modern PR spin defines forgiveness as being able to go as far as maybe a Cavity Back when you miss hit them , the problem is they go 10 yards further than a Cavity back on middle hits. So forget the word forgiving and look for something that is consistent.
I must say I’m having a hard time understanding the forgiveness metric you use. You say an “average iron” would be zero percent. What would constitute an average iron, what is the baseline for that? I see that some of these game improvement irons are remarkably less forgiving than some of the CB irons you have also reviewed based on these percentages, I just can’t see how that’s possible. How would a 30 handicapper be better off with a set of Wilson staff CB’s compared to ping g430’s? All logic would seem point to g430’s as being the more forgiving club but based on your numbers the Wilson CB’s are 42% more forgiving.
The "average" statement comes from that being the average value of all irons that we have collected data for. There's no "standard" as to what constitutes as forgiving, so we use our own data as a reference point and being at 50 irons now the middle ground is becoming fairly well defined. Your handicap score should have no bearing on what irons you should play, you could lose 10 shots a round with drives going into the trees, you could lose 10 shots on the putting green. There's not a iron out there that can make a slice or hook go straight but irons like the Wilson CB will make you ball be 43% less short of the pin when you dont hit the face out the middle than the average iron we have tested.
Thanks for that. I guess what I just don’t understand is how these tests shows that an MP21 pure blade iron is 23% more forgiving than an ultra game improvement g730 iron. It just doesn’t equate to me! Have golf manufacturers been lying to us!? Haha
@@justinsmit4372 You cant lie about something that isnt really defined, All modern irons are more "forgiving" than an old school blade, but the data shows that most of the modern cavity backs take up most of the top spots for most "consistent" faces, and the game improvement irons that also do well are the ones that dont focus on going a fast as possible out the midde.
I think the best way to think about this is to leave the word Forgiveness to one side and see it more as Consistency. It's extremely difficult to make a Game Improvement iron (also in my opinion commonly misnamed and should be something like Distance Iron) consistently the same speed across the whole face when the middle is built to be super flexible and fast. Whereas a Players Cavity design is absolutely not designed to be quick out of the middle and therefore has less work to be done in it's design phase in its ability to retain it from off centre strikes. Even a small amount of tech can make a big difference in a Players Cavity iron. So why even use Game Improvement Irons (Distance Irons) I hear everyone say, well there are many more aspects to the world of actually how a club performs not just how consistent it is, but also how fast the Face Speed is so how capable it is at gaining the most ball speed, how it creates spin, less or more is neither good or bad as it's very much so depending on what the individual golfer needs, what it's Launch Factor is is incredibly important for slow swing speed golfers needing to keep the ball in the air as swing speed reduces and also for faster players that don't want to see ballooning of their golf shots. And many more. Forgiveness is a measurement that really has only been measured by the MOI category but really thats only a measure of potential stability rather than a direct measure of how any club retains its consistency of ball speed across the club face. This is why we have tried to put this together in a way that it's directly comparing it to all the other irons on the website listing so all that want to can view and use the information to decide what piece of equipment is best for them given their individual requirements. Hope that helps explain things a bit more, thanks for your comment and for watching 👍
Unfortunately Titleist still don't answer my emails requesting involvement within the channel. Therefore until I'm able to test their products for forgiveness etc I'm unable to recommend anyone use them 🤷👍
@ interesting. Have you ever used the t350 or t400 ? I had my eyes on the t400 prior to this video but the Mizuno 925s sparked my interest. While im at it i will mention im coming from handmedown callaway Steelhead x14s and finishing up my first full year of golf so my other question is should i consider upgrading in general from the callaways? Sorry for the novel lol
@@richiehoppie6945 I wouldn't 100% swear those irons are costing you shots per round , but i have a feeling they probably are. Unless you are senior golfer struggling with speed and getting the ball in the Air the t400 and 350 don't offer much that a 200 would. You could join the AGN discord server and gives us some more info on your swing and its possible to make a short list of recommended clubs.discord.com/invite/ZJJ8E8u3c3
Not necessarily as the differences are fairly small but it may just be how the dynamics of the head and the face to head weight ratio works with the Forgiveness. Also the HL also has the benefit of Loft keeping unwanted tilt axis lower (curvature). 👍
I think its a big win, honestly all of the 925 irons are pushing the limit of forgiveness and they are really close together. They are losing out to the #1 spot by very tiny amounts so that if you prefer the look and feel of the Mizuno over the ZX's you wont notice the rest.
No PXG or Titleist on the lists. I only recently went to PXG to get fitted for their product line for media samples to be delivered for full review testing. Titleist, I have attempted to make contact and get a discussion started about testing their product but they continue to ignore my many attempts ☹️
First of all thanks for the quick response second what’s wrong with Titleist are they nuts? Looking forward to your 0311XP review I play them am 75 yo and slow they go far little spin.
@keithkatz1350 commonly a problem with distance inspired irons, the spin levels can get dangerously low to the point where they actually fall out of the air and cost distance rather than add to it. I'm just emailing them now to clarify my sample specs and will be pushing them to get them to me ASAP for testing.... Depending on how they perform I will most probably be doing an update video adding them in to their relevant iron categories 👍 I've given up on Titleist 🤷🤦🤦
Takomo only ever sent me the 101T (Players Distance irons) and the 301 irons (Players / Players Cavity). I did request their entire range but unfortunately I don't get to demand what they want to send me otherwise they of have been included 👍
@ thanks! I was convinced to buy Takomo 101s from tons of other videos but it seems like the ZX 4 II and the 926HM Pro may be the better choice if I can manage to find them used. Love your focus on data. Is the full rankings listed out in the discord as well as the heat maps?
Hi there, unfortunately I haven't been able as yet to generate a heat map for the Wilson Dynapower Cast irons. The Legacy data was at a slower speed so the heatmaps can't generate for apples to oranges data. I will have to grab some time and use it to re-hit the DynaPwr Irons. When it is up it will be available to see on the Master Compare file. If it is extremely good, I may well do an update to this video publishing the results along with the upcoming PXG reviews 👍
Thank you - very interesting. Not sure I can follow your data making the Callaway AI Smoke the worst when it comes to forgiveness yet many other youtuber like you, tested it compared it and the results are very different. Strange
Hi there thanks for the comment. Would be interesting to know how the other reviewers made their conclusion whether it was based on anything particular data wise or mostly subjective opinion at the time. The way I test equipment is using full club head data capture using GCQuad. Quad is unbiased and just measures club head delivery and ball dynamics. All of the Forgiveness data is loft and face angle adjusted and shows the efficiency drop off when deviating away from the middle. The Smoke is extremely good at creating face speed, Callaway are the best in the business at that, the only problem with making the middle as fast as it is is that it's now physically impossible to retain that efficiency from off centre strikes. It's the robbing Peter to pay Paul scenario 👍
@@AskGolfNut Lol, no, you are a good golf club tester. Yonex is a great Japanese company most famous for their tennis racquets (used by me and my son who now is a tennis teaching pro). Less known is that they also make great golf clubs, once used by a few USA pros like Phil the thrill Mikkelson (sp?). Try their new player's irons, the 301s, and the game improvement (GI) irons, the 901s. I have the 901s in 6-PW replacing my Callaway Apex 21s. Great irons!
I'm dubious regarding 'AI' designed club faces! Surely man made engineering and engineering software tools can do this. isn't it just a sp buzz word? We will all end playing with modern day Ping Zing 2 irons.
"AI" is certainly a Buzz work, AI anything doesn't mean perfect. Look at AI image generation in general they look good but there's always goofy errors in the images. To be able to tell an AI program to make the perfect iron you have to be able to define the perfect iron ( which doesn't exist, its different for every golfer).
Just won our club championship over two days by eight shots and I hit seven greens in regulation, it’s only short game that keeps me going, 11 putts in 9 holes, it’s no way to play golf.
@cynt1111 remember that the score card doesn't paint pictures 👍, you did what you had to to put yourself into contention and you won. Kudos to you and give yourself a pat on the back 👍 if you want to work on your game, it's the winter soon so an ideal time to get some things ironed out in the swing to come out next year playing some better more consistent golf 👍👍
One of the very best analytics method & presentation for golf irons comparative revaluation.
Thanks so much for the kind words 👍
Best golf videos on Utube.
Thanks very much for the kind feedback 👍
Agree 100%
I bought a set of ZX4s on the strength of your reviews and I have to say, you're not wrong, they're absolutely superb!
Glad my videos helped you make a choice you are happy with 👍👍
This is an incredible overview, hope you get a million subscribers soon.
Man that would be amazing.... If you know a good TH-cam algorithym hacker, pass me his contact details 😂👍
Super detailed list with tons of information for the everyday golfer! Loving my 925 HLs so far!
The HLs are great and a brilliant option for golfers that need the more traditional lofting for launch and spin whilst also having the advantages of forgiveness that the HL gives 👍
@@Michael.Sandoval33 same here. Bought a set of Hal’s and have shot in the 70’s my first 3 rounds with them.
@@erock1070 that's awesome to hear! I have only had range time with them so far but all signs are pointing to some great rounds ahead
Excellent analysis....best on the internet.
Thanks for the kind words 👍
This was a very in-depth analysis, great information and it will definitely be a valuable resource when I buy my next set of irons. Thank you
If you liked the information and data, all of it is available for my TH-cam Members to access (click on the JOIN button) and compare on the new website www.askgolfnut.com
The information is broken down into Tier access so depending on what info you want to have access to you can select whichever tier suits you 👍
Super appreciate all the hard work. Going to have to add Srixon to the list when I go to get new irons this winter.
They are replacing the Mk2 irons very very soon, hopefully I will be reviewing them soon ready for embargo. I haven't had my media samples of the ZXi irons as yet but shouldn't be long now 👍
Srixons just kicked ass in every category!!! Which is why I've played their different models over the past decade!!!
Cleveland would be a good cost saving!
Nice to see Cleveland doing well in this category!
They make a really good option in the XL irons, not everyone's cup of tea but they work really well 👍
Love the detailed explanations.
That's my hope, is that people that are looking for the best will be able to look at my video and work out exactly which one will be, rather than videos of a pro hitting them a few times on the course and giving their opinion which is the best. I'd rather use transparent data than any form of subjective opinion 👍👍
Always enjoy the content. Thanks
Glad you did 👍
Another great review Jay, I’m a senior with a swing speed mid seventies with 7 iron play TM stealth the QI impressed me more than I thought it would but I do like the look of the AI300. The Srixon ZX4 also impressed me but would wait for the mark 3 March/ April. Looking forward to your video on the PXG black op which is getting rave reviews but I want to see the ultimate test with your good self, could this be the one that suits me best. Can’t wait for that review it’s an early Christmas present !
Enjoyed this piece! Thank You
what a great video! thank you
Any chance you can give us an idea what the forgiveness weight looks like? Curious about this category, but also when you're talking about the players CB, does it change? And how much? Thanks for always putting high class stuff out there mate
Excellent content.
Thanks for the kind feedback 👍😊👍
Yes defo the HM pro for me 👍 great channel btw
Jay, once again you’re miles ahead of anyone else on the net. Question: I play off 16 on a tough links course so the handicap travels well. Currently playing Miz JPX923 HM pro with Nipon modus reg shaft. Struggling with my game at the moment. How do the Srixon ZX4 compare to mine? I tried the ZX5, couldn’t get on with them but I was having a bad day 😢. ZX4 standard shaft is KBS tour lite, so may help me get some height in my shots, although maybe not a good idea on a links course. 🤔
Interesting dilemma.... Assuming you haven't gone for a recent fitting at a Mizuno fitting centre to have your shaft bend profile measured so it's very difficult / impossible to guess how the change in shaft will affect ball flight. The Modus, depending on which ones are quite different bend profiles in themselves so again difficult to know how changing to a KBS Tour Lite will affect things...
Really the only thing I can say is to test them at a facility that will allow both the Srixon and Mizuno options together on the same day..... Not always the easiest thing but one of the large retail stores may be able to assist with that 👍
@@AskGolfNut it how do you feel the Miz JPX923 HM pro compares to the ZX4 Mk2 for forgiveness?
This is a great way to do the comparison. Most other videos spend 3/4 of the time showing thee ball strikes and 1/4 the results. This is right to the point. Only question - was this all based on 7 iron?
Most of the data is from 7iron swings, some are 6 iron and i think 1 is an 8 iron. But we built all the math and values to work regardless of loft ,because even all the 7 irons arent the same loft. So comparing a 28 7iron with a 32 7 iron is no different than a 28d 7 iron and a 30d 6 iron.
You missed out on PXG gen 7 0311XP. I’ve never had a better iron set.
Srixon came 2nd in the players distance test and first in the this one. Wonder how srixon will perform in the players category?
Won't have to wait long. Editing it now and intend on getting it up and ready for Tuesday 3:30pm UK Time. Got Members Live Stream tomorrow evening at 7pm UK Time so busy busy busy :-)
@@AskGolfNut look forward to watching that one
This is great!
Great comparison once again. Could you please educate me, if my thoughts about this are correct:
The HM Pro's weaknesses are launch and spin. I did not notice this too much on the one short demo I had, maybe because I usually only deloft my 7- and 8-irons by about 2° or so. Also, they can be ordered up to 2° weak, which would put their lofts in the range of the JPX 923 forged. Do you think that this would help with keeping their forgiveness but also make them more playable when it comes to decent angle?
(Mind you: I have only Mizuno fitters in golf shops nearby, who do the swing DNA to get the correct shaft, but they are far away from doing a complete fitting with gap testing and such. Also, they use Trackman, and not Flightscope)
Thank you for your reviews. My main miss is low on the face. After seeing your reviews, I just went and bought Mizuno 925 HM Pro. Did perform exactly as your review results indicated.
Really glad it did and happy also that you are really pleased with your new set of irons 👍
Jay, great review. Was there some reason the Titleist T350 was omitted from your comparison? As a senior golfer, the JPX925 HL is looking like a good option for me. Please keep those great reviews coming. I recommend them to all my friends.
Unfortunately the reason why all Titleist equipment was omitted from the 3 Best of videos was due to them not replying to my many forms of communication. I have emailed and called them more times than I can remember but with no reply whatsoever..... I feel that's a bit rude personally 👍
Great job
No PXG? I just bought a set of the new Blk Ops irons. They are awesome 👍🏻🇺🇸
You'll find Jay mentions why no PXG and Titleist at the time , but an agreement with PXG came through later and another video was made. th-cam.com/video/RND_lot_b-0/w-d-xo.html . Along with individual reviews.
Great review Jay. What's the difference between Mizuno 923 hot metal hl and 925 hl ? Appreciate your comments
Awesome!
Hi Daryl really glad you enjoyed the content. Just wondering if you have had you log in details for the new website www.askgolfnut.com so you can log in and check all the heat maps for the current and upcoming 2025 equipment reviews... I'm going to be turning off TH-cam Memberships soon and hoping for my current members to migrate to the website 👍👍
This further solidifies my decision to get fit for 925 HM Pro this off season
Great choice 👍👍
Great video. Would love to see if you could get your hands on some Tour Edge 725 series irons. From what I'm hearing, all three versions are incredible. Also, I contacted Cobra this week, and the new Forge Tec and Forge Tec X irons will be out this fall.
Haven't had any news from Tour Edge about sending me any 725 Irons. They sent me the E Driver but not the C.
With Ian Fraser leaving the Club Champion/TXG channel, this should become the premier place for club reviews!
Where did you hear this?
@@lawbinson did you mean Matt Bloise who left them a while back ?
@@lawbinson did you mean Matt Bloise who left them a while back ?
@@erock1070 No, Ian announced he’s leaving. His last videos will be through to January. The announcement was via his Instagram last week.
#TeamSrixon..Purchased me a set of Srixon Z785's, Absolutely love them 🔥 Good watch mate earnt you a subscriber here 👏🏼
does your chart state players HM Pro is MORE generally forgiving than game improvement HM-HL? Since looks and feel are subjective, any chance you could do a chart based on facts only? Great review as always!
Jay is there a way to see the full chart of numbers, would like to see the full fae spin rate numbers across all of the irons tested to see how they fared.
The full chart is the discord server at the silver level membership tier.
Wait, hold the phone! I was just about to put in my order for a set of JPX 925 HMs. How in the world is the smaller headed HM Pro more forgiving?
Club forgiveness dynamics are a minefield sometimes and weird situations happen regularly. It could just be that with the slightly smaller frame of the Hot Metal and the different weight distribution of the iron that the face relative to body weight means the Forgiveness tech actually works slightly better with that profile of iron... 👍 In reality you wouldn't be going wrong with either irons.
Great job Jason, will you review Cleveland CBX 4 ZipCore Wedge at anytime this year thanks.
Please call me Jay, I haven't been called Jason since I was last told off for being naughty by my mum when I was a child 😊
I've done an overview Cleveland Wedges video with these covered within them on my channel listing 👍
@@AskGolfNut Sorry Jay, I saw the RTX but not the CBX, I will check again, cheers.
I think its this one........
th-cam.com/video/hMp_iNyPu80/w-d-xo.html
@@AskGolfNut thanks again Jay, I must have had a brain fart.
Amazing detail.
Glad you liked the video 👍
Do the miura PI-401 and IC-602 next!
Are you using a robot to gather data? Curious what your methodology to find the forgiveness heatmap is
I am the robot 😊 basically a while big bunch of swings, I've developed the skill as time has gone on reviewing equipment to be able to keep my delivery extremely similar and just miss hit the face. All this data is then dumped via csv to a master spreadsheet where the maths does the workload of working out any small face to path and dynamic loft discrepancies etc to give a true efficiency or smash factor of the location hit relative to middle centre strike. This is then plotted on a grid and overlaid onto an iron face for illustration. The percentage drop off of then given a colour gradient between Green to Red to illustrate visually the size and shape of the hottest parts of the face.
It's an amazing tool and we get so much more usable data from it than just the heatmaps. All this data is available to see by my TH-cam Members and they can access the master compare file where they can compare the visual heatmaps of irons to match the best one for their known strike location miss 👍
I play the hot metal pro 921. I definitely hit out the tow. Would it be worth it? Just buying the five iron and six iron and weaving into my set.
Hv the lie * checked. Generally flattening the lie * ~1* may move impact back toward the center
Whether its "worth" it would be a personal choice, the 925 is a fairly big forgiveness improvement over the 923 not sure the 923 was much of a gain over the 921. I would probably consider first if there isnt something overall an improvement , check out the Players ranking video coming tuesday , and join the discord server we maybe able to find the idea club for you.
Btw, not sure if you my message, but I recommended you to Caley. They asked that you drop them a message 👍
Can you do the same comparison for 7 wood and 4 hybrid?
Give this video a watch and let me know your thoughts 👍
th-cam.com/video/7l2d7PbVeaE/w-d-xo.html
@@AskGolfNut Thanks Jay. Like all you videos, the 7w vs 4h comparison was great. However what I meant was - can you do a comparison of a range of different 7w brands and also a a comparison of a range of different 4h brands. You are the only one that has the presentation and analysis skills to do a decent unbiased comparisons of this type 🙂
Jay - wouldn't face speed be tied to loft? Seems like all of the more aggressive lofted clubs did better in the face speed metric.
Smash Factor is tied to loft, we created a new metric that adjusts out the loft on every shots smash factor. The more aggressive lofted irons tend to be aimed at max distance and have very fast face centers. Thats why they also end up closer to the top of the list.
These are all loft adjusted so in effect let's say, how fast are the faces if they were all 30 degrees. We are then effectively measuring face thickness and how high the COR is for each iron. That's why as a pattern, not a rule, the more distance inspired techy heads have a higher face speed than the pure forged blades... Again, a pattern not necessarily a rule depending on design 👍
@@AskGolfNut awesome. Thanks for the explanation. Great test
@@andy_bickley awesome. Thanks for the explanation. Great test
What about PXG & Titliest 350 ?
PXG arrived late to the party to only just agreeing to supply me with samples to test. I've got the individual full forgiveness reviews on my channel now to watch.
Titleist are continuing to ignore my attempts to contact them for me to be able to test their equipment 🤦🤷
Best comparison I've ever seen. T350 doesn't fit this group?
it probably would but as Jay mentioned at the start of the video , Titelist doesnt respond to jays request for media samples and so he doesnt get to test them like all of the other brands.
I think game improvement iron masks whats lacking with your game. Been using jpx 923 hm before then shifted to p770. Saw whats lacking in my game and somehow improved and felt more confident especially long irons
Top nut. The kernel of club testing 👍
😀 Thanks for the kind words 👍
Pity that Callaway Paradyme and Paradyme X irons weren't included! They would have won very easily! A great review - thanks.
Those were 2023 irons.
Unpopular opinion. Unless you struggle to hit the ball in the air or are an extreme high handicap, game improvement irons hurt you more than they help you
Maybe not unpopular, we'll see what the replies to the comment get to test everyone's responses 👍
I think for a lot of mid to high handicappers, centred strikes are not the norm. So am I right in saying the Callaway Ai Smoke would be a dangerous implement in that scenario Jay?
Say only one in five shots is struck from the centre; the strikes where Callaway has rated poorly for forgiveness. Then after 4 off centre strikes, just as you’ve allowed for the mishit, on the fifth shot you cream it and get the proverbial “flyer” that goes over the back of the green! 🙄
One could very much interpret the data in that very way yes 👍
@@AskGolfNut love your work mate, I got a good feeling the subs are just about to really take off for your channel
@cameronloveless1751 fingers crossed pal 🤞👍
Do u notice some of the GI iron extend their shaft? Is it to gain more distance?
Sometimes they may go 1/4 or even 1/2 inch longer to generate a touch more speed. It's not as a dramatic change as the loft strengthening we've witnessed over the years 👍
I wonder when they will stop strengthening loft? Until all high hcp player cant launch the ball? 😂😂😂
@@AskGolfNut
@@HoneyTitan I don't think they'll go any further now. They've reached the point where the head CG isn't or can't get much lower so the loft reduction offset has reached its peak. Now will come the Forgiveness era where every manufacturer will fight for the most forgiving irons. 👍
I am really surprised how much more forgiving the Hot Metal Pro is than the Hot Metal High Launch. Why do you think that might be?
Also, you didn't include any hybrid irons in this. Is that because you consider hybrid irons in another category beyond super game improvement?
Yes bud the hybrid irons have Roll and Bulge faces, anything that hasn't got a flat face can't be compared directly in the same way and has to be measured in the same way we do for the Drivers etc, with Distance Factor Heat Maps 👍
Wow, Just WOW.
Wait until you see the Players/Players Cavity Irons video 😉👍👍
I am confused as to why the Hot Metal Pro wins out on forgiveness over the Hot Metal as the slightly larger head of the Hot Metal is supposed to give you more forgiveness. Some of the other metrics here also favor the Pro over the HM. Just seems odd.
Club forgiveness dynamics are a minefield sometimes and weird situations happen regularly. It could just be that with the slightly smaller frame of the Hot Metal and the different weight distribution of the iron that the face relative to body weight means the Forgiveness tech actually work better with that profile of iron... 👍
@@AskGolfNut Thank you for your reply - especially as I am very interested in buying the Hot Metal. I tested it last month with the Dynamic Gold 105 Stiff (7-iron) and it felt really good and the results were consistent. My club head speed with 7-iron is about 85mph and my swing slightly in-to-out with a slightly open face so gentle draw is my natural shape. However, I tend to have a wandering strike, so I assumed that the Hot Metal would be best for me. I will have to test the Pro to be sure.
I’m surprised that the AI300 and Smoke weren’t the most forgiving as advertised in the commercial for golfers with off-center hits. So disappointing.😢
Modern PR spin defines forgiveness as being able to go as far as maybe a Cavity Back when you miss hit them , the problem is they go 10 yards further than a Cavity back on middle hits. So forget the word forgiving and look for something that is consistent.
No Wilson Dynapower, no contest. Best game improvers of all, and Wilson makes great clubs, 68 majors can’t be wrong.
No off brand cheaper clubs on this list? Macgreger, takomo etc…..
I must say I’m having a hard time understanding the forgiveness metric you use. You say an “average iron” would be zero percent. What would constitute an average iron, what is the baseline for that? I see that some of these game improvement irons are remarkably less forgiving than some of the CB irons you have also reviewed based on these percentages, I just can’t see how that’s possible. How would a 30 handicapper be better off with a set of Wilson staff CB’s compared to ping g430’s? All logic would seem point to g430’s as being the more forgiving club but based on your numbers the Wilson CB’s are 42% more forgiving.
The "average" statement comes from that being the average value of all irons that we have collected data for. There's no "standard" as to what constitutes as forgiving, so we use our own data as a reference point and being at 50 irons now the middle ground is becoming fairly well defined. Your handicap score should have no bearing on what irons you should play, you could lose 10 shots a round with drives going into the trees, you could lose 10 shots on the putting green. There's not a iron out there that can make a slice or hook go straight but irons like the Wilson CB will make you ball be 43% less short of the pin when you dont hit the face out the middle than the average iron we have tested.
Thanks for that. I guess what I just don’t understand is how these tests shows that an MP21 pure blade iron is 23% more forgiving than an ultra game improvement g730 iron. It just doesn’t equate to me! Have golf manufacturers been lying to us!? Haha
@@justinsmit4372 You cant lie about something that isnt really defined, All modern irons are more "forgiving" than an old school blade, but the data shows that most of the modern cavity backs take up most of the top spots for most "consistent" faces, and the game improvement irons that also do well are the ones that dont focus on going a fast as possible out the midde.
I think the best way to think about this is to leave the word Forgiveness to one side and see it more as Consistency. It's extremely difficult to make a Game Improvement iron (also in my opinion commonly misnamed and should be something like Distance Iron) consistently the same speed across the whole face when the middle is built to be super flexible and fast. Whereas a Players Cavity design is absolutely not designed to be quick out of the middle and therefore has less work to be done in it's design phase in its ability to retain it from off centre strikes. Even a small amount of tech can make a big difference in a Players Cavity iron.
So why even use Game Improvement Irons (Distance Irons) I hear everyone say, well there are many more aspects to the world of actually how a club performs not just how consistent it is, but also how fast the Face Speed is so how capable it is at gaining the most ball speed, how it creates spin, less or more is neither good or bad as it's very much so depending on what the individual golfer needs, what it's Launch Factor is is incredibly important for slow swing speed golfers needing to keep the ball in the air as swing speed reduces and also for faster players that don't want to see ballooning of their golf shots. And many more.
Forgiveness is a measurement that really has only been measured by the MOI category but really thats only a measure of potential stability rather than a direct measure of how any club retains its consistency of ball speed across the club face. This is why we have tried to put this together in a way that it's directly comparing it to all the other irons on the website listing so all that want to can view and use the information to decide what piece of equipment is best for them given their individual requirements.
Hope that helps explain things a bit more, thanks for your comment and for watching 👍
@@AskGolfNutFantastic thank you so much for that detailed response!
No titleist ?
Unfortunately Titleist still don't answer my emails requesting involvement within the channel. Therefore until I'm able to test their products for forgiveness etc I'm unable to recommend anyone use them 🤷👍
@ interesting. Have you ever used the t350 or t400 ? I had my eyes on the t400 prior to this video but the Mizuno 925s sparked my interest. While im at it i will mention im coming from handmedown callaway Steelhead x14s and finishing up my first full year of golf so my other question is should i consider upgrading in general from the callaways? Sorry for the novel lol
@@richiehoppie6945 I wouldn't 100% swear those irons are costing you shots per round , but i have a feeling they probably are. Unless you are senior golfer struggling with speed and getting the ball in the Air the t400 and 350 don't offer much that a 200 would. You could join the AGN discord server and gives us some more info on your swing and its possible to make a short list of recommended clubs.discord.com/invite/ZJJ8E8u3c3
So the hot metal pro is more forgiving than the other Hot metals? That’s a bit of a fail for mizuno…
Not necessarily as the differences are fairly small but it may just be how the dynamics of the head and the face to head weight ratio works with the Forgiveness. Also the HL also has the benefit of Loft keeping unwanted tilt axis lower (curvature). 👍
Also having all of their models ranking up so high compared to all others is a big win for them. 👍
I think its a big win, honestly all of the 925 irons are pushing the limit of forgiveness and they are really close together. They are losing out to the #1 spot by very tiny amounts so that if you prefer the look and feel of the Mizuno over the ZX's you wont notice the rest.
How come no PXG 0311XP seems like a no brainer
No PXG or Titleist on the lists. I only recently went to PXG to get fitted for their product line for media samples to be delivered for full review testing.
Titleist, I have attempted to make contact and get a discussion started about testing their product but they continue to ignore my many attempts ☹️
First of all thanks for the quick response second what’s wrong with Titleist are they nuts? Looking forward to your 0311XP review I play them am 75 yo and slow they go far little spin.
@keithkatz1350 commonly a problem with distance inspired irons, the spin levels can get dangerously low to the point where they actually fall out of the air and cost distance rather than add to it. I'm just emailing them now to clarify my sample specs and will be pushing them to get them to me ASAP for testing.... Depending on how they perform I will most probably be doing an update video adding them in to their relevant iron categories 👍
I've given up on Titleist 🤷🤦🤦
@@AskGolfNuthopefully you get to test the Black Ops irons as well :-)
@168910 yep full reviews of all of their current irons will be coming soon 👍
No Takomo?
Takomo only ever sent me the 101T (Players Distance irons) and the 301 irons (Players / Players Cavity). I did request their entire range but unfortunately I don't get to demand what they want to send me otherwise they of have been included 👍
@ thanks! I was convinced to buy Takomo 101s from tons of other videos but it seems like the ZX 4 II and the 926HM Pro may be the better choice if I can manage to find them used. Love your focus on data. Is the full rankings listed out in the discord as well as the heat maps?
@adamandsarahquinn yes they are set out in tables for their respective categories 👍
damn no wilson dynapower?
Jay included it in the Players Distance Irons grouping.
th-cam.com/video/gNPnFNdWq20/w-d-xo.html
Hi there, unfortunately I haven't been able as yet to generate a heat map for the Wilson Dynapower Cast irons. The Legacy data was at a slower speed so the heatmaps can't generate for apples to oranges data. I will have to grab some time and use it to re-hit the DynaPwr Irons. When it is up it will be available to see on the Master Compare file. If it is extremely good, I may well do an update to this video publishing the results along with the upcoming PXG reviews 👍
Thank you - very interesting. Not sure I can follow your data making the Callaway AI Smoke the worst when it comes to forgiveness yet many other youtuber like you, tested it compared it and the results are very different. Strange
Hi there thanks for the comment. Would be interesting to know how the other reviewers made their conclusion whether it was based on anything particular data wise or mostly subjective opinion at the time. The way I test equipment is using full club head data capture using GCQuad. Quad is unbiased and just measures club head delivery and ball dynamics. All of the Forgiveness data is loft and face angle adjusted and shows the efficiency drop off when deviating away from the middle.
The Smoke is extremely good at creating face speed, Callaway are the best in the business at that, the only problem with making the middle as fast as it is is that it's now physically impossible to retain that efficiency from off centre strikes. It's the robbing Peter to pay Paul scenario 👍
. . . and, the winner is . . . Yonex ezone cb901s forged, huge applause .
Is this based on something ?
I'm utterly confused 🤷
@@AskGolfNut Lol, no, you are a good golf club tester. Yonex is a great Japanese company most famous for their tennis racquets (used by me and my son who now is a tennis teaching pro). Less known is that they also make great golf clubs, once used by a few USA pros like Phil the thrill Mikkelson (sp?). Try their new player's irons, the 301s, and the game improvement (GI) irons, the 901s. I have the 901s in 6-PW replacing my Callaway Apex 21s. Great irons!
Used by Colin Montgomery also and I believe when he won his multiple order of merits 👍
Please update player’s irons😅
Editing it now and due to be coming on Tuesday at 3:30pm UK Time, Members Only Live Stream tomorrow night at 7pm UK time, so busy busy busy 😀
I'm dubious regarding 'AI' designed club faces! Surely man made engineering and engineering software tools can do this. isn't it just a sp buzz word? We will all end playing with modern day Ping Zing 2 irons.
"AI" is certainly a Buzz work, AI anything doesn't mean perfect. Look at AI image generation in general they look good but there's always goofy errors in the images. To be able to tell an AI program to make the perfect iron you have to be able to define the perfect iron ( which doesn't exist, its different for every golfer).
THE WINNER IS PXG BLACK OPS🤙
I'll let you know when I test them 👍
None of these irons are good enough for me, my iron play is shite.
At least you are honest 👍 grab some lessons to help that 👍
Just won our club championship over two days by eight shots and I hit seven greens in regulation, it’s only short game that keeps me going, 11 putts in 9 holes, it’s no way to play golf.
@cynt1111 remember that the score card doesn't paint pictures 👍, you did what you had to to put yourself into contention and you won. Kudos to you and give yourself a pat on the back 👍 if you want to work on your game, it's the winter soon so an ideal time to get some things ironed out in the swing to come out next year playing some better more consistent golf 👍👍