Drow got the Cain treatment: "for inventing murder, you get to tour the earth forever and if anyone hurts you, they get it back seven fold." "For betraying the King of the Elves you get some spells per day, awesome magical weapons that surface dwelling adventurers can't take home if they steal them, and you can trade your Ren Faire style for leg warmers, one piece bikinis, and blown out glam metal hair."
I do like that one interpretation of Drow as Slavic immigrants. "Back in deep country, today would be Spider-day, Matron would throw one male into spider pit, must say is great honour."
"Shadow elves are nothing like the Drow" Laughs in Tel'Arin, then proceeds to create several mirror images and fireball the party down to exactly 1 HP.
Tel'Arin is a special case, in that he founded a cult/fetish club based on some Drow-centric porn Ed Greenwood... I mean Elminster... dropped near a skinwing farm while on a planar bar-hopping binge. That's why all the Shadow Elves who work for Tel'Arin wear black leather thongs and run around with their tits out.
@@Savyon0 I won't lie: I once had a lich do the same thing to a party thanks to the influence of that arcade game (which I thought was the best AD&D video game around at the time). My lich cast Hold Person though, not Fireball. Wanted to make the players sweat a bit. ;) EDIT: I was only a console/arcade gamer from before I could read until late high school as I never had a PC good enough for gaming. Warcraft 1 and 2, and Starcraft were my only PC games until college, so I missed out on the Gold Box AD&D games.
Well, the arcade games are not REALLY set in Mystara. They have the doggy Kobolds and the existence of Skyships, but everything else is bog standard D&D, only with an 80's anime aesthetic. They just use the names of Mystara, Glantri, and Darokin, and call the obvious drow "shadow elves" because they wanted to advertise 2nd edition's sexy new setting in the arcade game. Designer: "We want to make a D&D arcade game!" TSR: "Great! BTW, Can you set it in Mystara?" Designer: "Uuuuuuh...."
Recently I've been reading the Planescape sourcebooks and in Uncaged: Faces of Sigil, there was a Mystaran Shadow Elf named Farrow living in Sigil. Basically he was spying on Galantri, got discovered by the wizards and fled through a portal to Sigil, there he worked as a spy for a yugoloth crime boss who gave him the power to shape shift, but all the secret identities he created to infiltrate the factions gained sentience and now fight for control of the body.
Was looking at covering Farrow and some other Planescape crossovers, only there's not a planescape channel that publishes on a regular schedule that I know of, and also there's not a lot of information on crossovers in the setting.
In regards to the idea of Drow's change when getting borged into the Realms being fetish fuel makes sense to me...I mean, this is Ed Greenwood we are talking about, a man who once infamously stated on the Candlekeep Forums that the family in the Realms that Lays together, Stays together...and that "It's not Incest if the female partner doesn't get Pregnant"... ...And yes, that is apparently canon in the Forgotten Realms, as the nature of Greenwood's contract includes his ability to say anything about the setting and it's canon, with Wizards just having to dance around the issue of every holiday including an orgy in the nearest town square...
Would you consider doing a followup video breaking down the differences between the Underdark and... whatever Mystara calls its equivalent, the Great Below? It just always stood out to me that the Underdark is this weird blurring of pulp fiction "cavern-world" and mythic underground faerie realms*, whilst Mystara's underearth is relatively realistic, being dangerous, resource-poor and almost completely inhospitable to humanoid life... until you dig deep enough, and then you literally have Pellucidar with the serial numbers hastily filed off. *Especially the 4e core setting's version, which is literally a magical realm semi-permanently carved from the unstable reaches of early creation and kept in an ever-shifting configuration by a cursed god who constantly batters and claws his maimed body through the depths.
The thing I find funny is Drow and their role in the against the giants modules is a homage to The First Ones from the John Carter of Mars Books [even their culture and some of their general appearance is similar, though they and the shadow elves also take a bit from The Lotharians of the later books] however the Edgar Rice Burroughs realized they kind of lost a lot of there bang after their first appearance as once the cat's out the bag they're pretty much as mundane as every other creature on mars comparatively speaking so pretty much left them alone after their story arc save references and cameos here and there. Also, you have a magazine what's it called?
I love the Barsoom series, thanks for pointing out the connection between Drow and first born, though now I want to do a plot about Drow using spelljammers to make everyone think they're from the moon (funnily enough, Greyspace did put a Drow city on one of Oerths moons.
@@johnbalk6091 Both. Focused on the art scene inside the loop, then began to expand our coverage and our region as the cost of living near downtown started forcing out the artistic venues. Went from 6 theatres we focused on to 2 as they died off one after another. Lot of people moving into the city wanting to live next to downtown and not realizing the metroplex was the size of some smaller states. Did wonders for real estate values as people started realizing stuff they bought in 1970 for $50k was worth millions to the developers now.
I think that's Pathfinder's fault, to be honest... The official art went from 3.x and 4e's "these guys have demon blood" to "red skinned but sexy." 5e picked up the sexy bit and ran with it as well.
@@derekburge5294 I thought 4e made them red-skinned devilfolk with _huge_ horns. Then Tiefling from the Pathfinder bestiary looks a lot more subtle in comparison, though I don't know how much variance they have in Pathfinder.
@@EvilDoresh For the 3.x and 4e, I more meant that they looked sinister: frowning, rough features, deep-set eyes, and heavy brows. They looked dangerous and tainted. Their infernal heritage was front and center. Contrast that with the PF version with brighter colors, more smiles, less harsh facial structures. Might just be me, but I find they look less like infernals and more like genies or something.
2:04 who were the primordials? My introduction to grand interplanar divine warfare was 3.5's early Obyrith-Tanari vs everyone and post-devilhood bloodwar. (And most modern lore videos throw in 4e's shard of pure evil)
Brilliant stuff as usual. I am a hardcore BECMI DM.. Dont wanna go anywhere near 5e, for a lot of the same reasons you mention here... Thanks for posting.
One thing I think is worth noting regarding the Alfheim elves not letting shadow elves in is that if you do the math and look at how few elves actually live in Alfheim compared to some of the other nations, and consider how verdant their orchards are (thanks to all that water they stole from Ylarum) I think they might’ve actually been full of shit when they said there just wasn’t enough room for the shadow elves. They should be able to support like 5 times their current population, easily. Not to get too political, but I think a DM can draw some inspiration from real life since it’s often the same way when large groups refugees ask to move into large wealthy nations - they don’t want them (what if the foreigners outnumber us!) so go on about how there just aren’t enough resources to go around regardless of how transparently false that is. Maybe I just like portraying the Alfheim elves as selfish arrogant dickheads, but that’s how it is in my Mystara games. Of course most elves of either “race” don’t know about all that, but it informs my behind the scenes decisions.
There is an obvious subtext that seems to be that Alfheim leadership does not want not have their lower their standards of living to be able to help their cousins equal theirs. But both sides leaders are happy to use it to keep their populations apart and under their own control. If they merged, someone's elite groups and leaders are going to lose some measure of wealth and control, even if the Shadowelves would ultimatly gain more, and Alfheim maybe would too. It might make an interesting campaign...if a little too close to home for a lot of players who might not like the...real world implication's.
To play elf's advocate (a worse position than the guy stuck playing devil's advocate) could they have done so without harming their forest home? Now if you'll excuse me I have 108 consecutive showers to take to attempt to wash the filth of defending elves off of me.
Hey I like the Drow's Glam Metal meets BDSM look. Though I suppose it's lost A LOT of it's charm it later renditions, and that's not JUST a kink thing. I mean I won't lie, I do think it's hot, but I unironically think it's really cool looking. Though I do miss the baddass looking sinister mustaches the dudes used to sport. But yeah they have really been spoiled. I liked the idea of Good Drow, but think the Realms should have kept them rare, Eilistraeen Drow should have been a rare nomadic community that primarily roamed the world at night, preferably keeping the Glam Metal look but trading out the Leather & Chains for a more Gypsy esq aesthetic, & most of all they should have remained RARE, rarer even than Evil Drow. Maybe showing up as a surprise in 1 FR module per edition AT MOST. Also Drow rules should not be in the Core Rulebook. That was a major red flag for 5e, it's essentially the Forgotten Realms of editions really. Honestly only Humans, Halflings, Dwarves, more standard Elves (High and Wood), & MAYBE Gnomes should be in the Players Handbook. Honestly it would be nice if the Gnome slot was filled by a standardized "Big Guy" Race instead. Goliaths could slot nicely into most settings. However, this would be a big departure from tradition. Basically if it's in the PHB it needs to be something that would be available in most settings, and would not be evil by default. Drow should only be in the Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, & Eberon Setting Book's. Tiefling's should be in Planescape & or Spelljammer stuff, Warfroged in Eberon, ect. Of course my favorite setting Darksun has to reprint everything as all the races change significantly to some degree. Notably I'd actually like to add Eberon's Drow to Darksun, or something like them. I think they would fit in nicely. Got to drop the Scorpion God, (Demote him to their King? Make him a High Level Fire Cleric?) and lean into the Fire Worship a bit. Drop them into the Jungle fringes maybe? (Wouldn't want to make them subterranean.) Part of me would want to make them drop the Black Skin, or have their hair be blond or red in color, and rename them Ember Elves or something... Just to differentiate them a bit more. Have them be still be Evil by Default, but on the side of nature & the elements. So you can play with Darksun's Civilization vs. Nature motif a bit.
1:20 no issues with resembling a certain pale skinned degenerate evil human offshoot from one of Gary's favorite author a little too closely? (Though those didn't have curly hair)
While the Drizzt books (specifically the original 'Homeland' and 'Icewind Dale' trilogies) and the 'Menzoberranzan' boxed set were my introduction to Drow, my love of them wasn't just about the bdsm motif (though I do love me some sexy Drow women). I loved them for their scheming nature and the dark society in which they fought to survive. It made me sad to see them go from the incredibly intimidating and impressive creatures of 'Homeland' to the 'every Drow's a free-thinking snowflake' of later years. In my Planescape campaign I had them working in the background, manipulating a complicated series of events that turned Sigil into a boiling pot of civil unrest and then intended to activate a nuke in the middle of the city. Had they succeeded, they'd have killed hundreds of the most powerful and important people in the Planes.
for the record there are no drow in dragonlance - while there are "dark elves" thats the name given to elves that have been exiled from elf community. AND NO "DLS4 Wild Elves" IS NOT CANON!!
The only time I ever played a Good Guy Drow was as a Divine Liberator of Eilistraee. (I did have to go thru Ranger, but I just wanted to be a Chaotic Good Paladin damn it! I also did not know about Bladesingers at the time, which is what I really should have done.) Does that count? I just realized I have a tendency to like playing typically evil races as paragons of Good... Half-Orc Cleric of Torm, Tiefling Cleric of Ilmater... I'm worse than some of my players! Ok, maybe not, but yeah.
So what’s your take on Pathfinder’s take on drow? With an active curse, like a fanatic elf general morphing into one when she killed a bunch of people for not being anti-drow enough for her. Also, I disagree with your dismissal of certain… unfortunate implications behind the use of “humanoids” (orcs, hobgoblins, etc) in a lot of fantasy settings. But this is not the time or place for that discussion. The drow were NOT that, but the various retcons (the “fall” of Lolth and her kids you mentioned) made them that.
While I appreciate them coming at it with a different take they can just as easily created their own race of bad guy elves. Better to create than alter
That is true. Sometimes they were a bit too limited by trying to be "D&D, but..." Have to hand it to Keith Baker and the rest of the Ebberon guys for creating the barbarian raider and creepy death cult elves.
So, this is the second time you mentioned the name change of Specularum and the laughter that ensued. As you know, I’m not very smart, so why all giggling like schoolgirls?
@@johnbalk6091 yes, especially since "-larum" sounds nothing like "-lum" so it entirely hinges on the "specu-" portion; the same root for words such as "spectacle", "spectacular", and another term for corrective eyewear to list a few.
Everytime someone mentioned Drizzt they mention how they're thousands of player characters that copy him but I've never actually seen one before. Maybe it was just a boomer thing.
I envy you. I had a guy who did nothing but that, as we as our resident evangelical atheist who played a Cadderly clone in the regular. Their ideas of original characters was to change a weapon choice or which bad attempt at a Cambridge accent they were going to forget to use when speaking in character. How bad was it, you ask? My freighter, loaded with weapons for the Rebel Alliance, was shot down over a heavily forested planet advanced I discovered that spell resistance applied to blasters but don't worry! DMPC good guy drow is will be our guide. I got the hyperdrive online and triggered a minor extinction level event by activating it while in the not exactly underdark.
I think you should watch the Extra Credits on orcs. It is more drawing attention to how writing and characterizing your evil people group can slide into bad stereotyping and comparisons towards certain things Well I agree the Drow thing is a weird stretch when you look at some of the oddities I wouldn't be surprised if their was something dumb.
Ok now for more positive comment - since you mentioned Eberron, have you thought of doing video on how to port Artificer to Mystara? With all the Blackmoor tech, Gnomes and Dwarves it feels it would fit. Plus people who like to point out Mystara did a lot of things Eberron did first would likely be happy.
@@Mr_Welch Great. I'm prepping Mystara campaign and possibly future campaigns in the setting, your videos and Vaults and Piazza have been a lot of help.
Vaults of Pandius is a fan site for Mystara/ known world setting and all related settings ( Red Steel , hollow earth and the like) and should give you loads to work with you can also get the old stuff off drive thru rpg and similar sites. Even if Wizards won't make new stories for the setting doesn't mean you can't.
I need to challenge you on the "Orcs aren't a stand-in for minorities". Sadly Tolkien, who invented them, in one of his letters flat out admitted Orcs are stand-ins for Mongols. Gary Gygax also didn't do the "it's not racist" stance any favors when he tried to defend why LG Paladin would kill Orc babies...by quoting John Chivington. After that shit's gonna stick, it's up to each DM to clean it in his campaign.
That may have been _Tolkien's_ idea, but it's not an integral part of Orcs as used in D&D (or other games). I'd say D&D is pretty vague when it comes to Orc culture and customs (aside from being full-time raiders). The only (monstrous) humanoid with an "implied ethnicity" I can think of are Ogre Magi (which are supposed to be Japanese Oni more often than not, which usually just means slightly Japanese-style armor and weapons). What you make out of Orcs depends on the setting you're using. (Plus "Savage marauders threatening civilization as we know it" is a concept that could have all sorts of historical references, be it nomadic hill tribes during the Bronze Age Collapse or Germanic tribes during the later years of the Roman Empire.) The whole "What if you find _orc babies_ ?" thing is a giant can of worms and a bit of a dick move to drop on an unsuspecting party trying to enjoy an entertaining dungeon crawl in a system which _by default_ assumes objective morality as a universal constant. It's kind like watching Luke and Han Solo mow down a bunch of Stormtroopers only for them to find out that the Star Destroyer they're on is currently having a Bring Your Kids To Work Day.
@@EvilDoresh I only brought up Orc babies in the relation to how Gary Gygax shat the bed on any chances of divorcing Orcs from topic of racism when he tried to defend killing Orc babies with "nits make lice" - the same argument John Chivington used as his excuse to commit a real-life mass murder of up to 163 Cheyene and Arapho noncombatants, women and children. Creator of d&d went and made a connection between killing Orcs and an act so racist even for 1800's it was too much. Chivington is one of few people who have achieved hitler-levels of being despised, almost every movie ever made with him portrays him as a monster (he was a favorite villain of 1950's westerns even). After that, I don't think just saying "orcs aren't meant to be racist" is enough, DM needs to work to flesh them out so they don't. You can than Gygax for it.
Drow got the Cain treatment: "for inventing murder, you get to tour the earth forever and if anyone hurts you, they get it back seven fold." "For betraying the King of the Elves you get some spells per day, awesome magical weapons that surface dwelling adventurers can't take home if they steal them, and you can trade your Ren Faire style for leg warmers, one piece bikinis, and blown out glam metal hair."
What did Seth Serkowsky called them, photo negative versions of Tolkien elves mixed with Kiss?
Click on the video, wife over hears it “Is that the guy with the Wynona fetish”
Wynona Ryder looks like a man NGL.
@@youcantbeatk7006 well the drug use hasn’t been kind to her over the years and she’s crazy but back in the day she was hot.
@@erikmartin4996 I mean, I don't think aging 30 years has ever done anyone any favors in the looks department. She's not ugly, she's 50.
FET-ISH!
FET-ISH!
A shadow elf being shown a fetish elf city and being told 'oh yeah these guys are just like you'.
The "cave fish in a toga," line was great.
I do like that one interpretation of Drow as Slavic immigrants.
"Back in deep country, today would be Spider-day, Matron would throw one male into spider pit, must say is great honour."
"Shadow elves are nothing like the Drow"
Laughs in Tel'Arin, then proceeds to create several mirror images and fireball the party down to exactly 1 HP.
Tel'Arin is a special case, in that he founded a cult/fetish club based on some Drow-centric porn Ed Greenwood... I mean Elminster... dropped near a skinwing farm while on a planar bar-hopping binge.
That's why all the Shadow Elves who work for Tel'Arin wear black leather thongs and run around with their tits out.
@@Savyon0
I won't lie: I once had a lich do the same thing to a party thanks to the influence of that arcade game (which I thought was the best AD&D video game around at the time). My lich cast Hold Person though, not Fireball. Wanted to make the players sweat a bit. ;)
EDIT: I was only a console/arcade gamer from before I could read until late high school as I never had a PC good enough for gaming. Warcraft 1 and 2, and Starcraft were my only PC games until college, so I missed out on the Gold Box AD&D games.
Well, the arcade games are not REALLY set in Mystara. They have the doggy Kobolds and the existence of Skyships, but everything else is bog standard D&D, only with an 80's anime aesthetic. They just use the names of Mystara, Glantri, and Darokin, and call the obvious drow "shadow elves" because they wanted to advertise 2nd edition's sexy new setting in the arcade game.
Designer: "We want to make a D&D arcade game!"
TSR: "Great! BTW, Can you set it in Mystara?"
Designer: "Uuuuuuh...."
Recently I've been reading the Planescape sourcebooks and in Uncaged: Faces of Sigil, there was a Mystaran Shadow Elf named Farrow living in Sigil. Basically he was spying on Galantri, got discovered by the wizards and fled through a portal to Sigil, there he worked as a spy for a yugoloth crime boss who gave him the power to shape shift, but all the secret identities he created to infiltrate the factions gained sentience and now fight for control of the body.
Was looking at covering Farrow and some other Planescape crossovers, only there's not a planescape channel that publishes on a regular schedule that I know of, and also there's not a lot of information on crossovers in the setting.
@@Mr_Welch For Planescape channels you might want to check out The Primogen and Michael Snow
In regards to the idea of Drow's change when getting borged into the Realms being fetish fuel makes sense to me...I mean, this is Ed Greenwood we are talking about, a man who once infamously stated on the Candlekeep Forums that the family in the Realms that Lays together, Stays together...and that "It's not Incest if the female partner doesn't get Pregnant"...
...And yes, that is apparently canon in the Forgotten Realms, as the nature of Greenwood's contract includes his ability to say anything about the setting and it's canon, with Wizards just having to dance around the issue of every holiday including an orgy in the nearest town square...
Would you consider doing a followup video breaking down the differences between the Underdark and... whatever Mystara calls its equivalent, the Great Below? It just always stood out to me that the Underdark is this weird blurring of pulp fiction "cavern-world" and mythic underground faerie realms*, whilst Mystara's underearth is relatively realistic, being dangerous, resource-poor and almost completely inhospitable to humanoid life... until you dig deep enough, and then you literally have Pellucidar with the serial numbers hastily filed off.
*Especially the 4e core setting's version, which is literally a magical realm semi-permanently carved from the unstable reaches of early creation and kept in an ever-shifting configuration by a cursed god who constantly batters and claws his maimed body through the depths.
I can certainly put it on the list
The thing I find funny is Drow and their role in the against the giants modules is a homage to The First Ones from the John Carter of Mars Books [even their culture and some of their general appearance is similar, though they and the shadow elves also take a bit from The Lotharians of the later books] however the Edgar Rice Burroughs realized they kind of lost a lot of there bang after their first appearance as once the cat's out the bag they're pretty much as mundane as every other creature on mars comparatively speaking so pretty much left them alone after their story arc save references and cameos here and there. Also, you have a magazine what's it called?
Red Pub magazine. Past tense, didn't survive 2020. No arts/concerts/plays/conventions means nothing to write about.
I love the Barsoom series, thanks for pointing out the connection between Drow and first born, though now I want to do a plot about Drow using spelljammers to make everyone think they're from the moon (funnily enough, Greyspace did put a Drow city on one of Oerths moons.
@@Mr_Welch Was it an online publication, or real paper?
@@johnbalk6091 Both. Focused on the art scene inside the loop, then began to expand our coverage and our region as the cost of living near downtown started forcing out the artistic venues. Went from 6 theatres we focused on to 2 as they died off one after another. Lot of people moving into the city wanting to live next to downtown and not realizing the metroplex was the size of some smaller states. Did wonders for real estate values as people started realizing stuff they bought in 1970 for $50k was worth millions to the developers now.
@@Mr_Welch And this is in Houston, right? That’s your base of operations?
Now, instead of Drow Ranger, it's Tiefling Rogue.
Who started that one?
I think that's Pathfinder's fault, to be honest... The official art went from 3.x and 4e's "these guys have demon blood" to "red skinned but sexy." 5e picked up the sexy bit and ran with it as well.
@@derekburge5294 I thought 4e made them red-skinned devilfolk with _huge_ horns.
Then Tiefling from the Pathfinder bestiary looks a lot more subtle in comparison, though I don't know how much variance they have in Pathfinder.
@@EvilDoresh For the 3.x and 4e, I more meant that they looked sinister: frowning, rough features, deep-set eyes, and heavy brows. They looked dangerous and tainted. Their infernal heritage was front and center.
Contrast that with the PF version with brighter colors, more smiles, less harsh facial structures. Might just be me, but I find they look less like infernals and more like genies or something.
2:04 who were the primordials? My introduction to grand interplanar divine warfare was 3.5's early Obyrith-Tanari vs everyone and post-devilhood bloodwar. (And most modern lore videos throw in 4e's shard of pure evil)
4th edition add in, think evil elemental gods.
@@Mr_Welch Ah so it was one of the 4e things. Wasn't aware that tied into the fey stuff.
golly gee willikers Mr.Welch I'm starting to think you don't like that corellan fella very much
Brilliant stuff as usual. I am a hardcore BECMI DM.. Dont wanna go anywhere near 5e, for a lot of the same reasons you mention here... Thanks for posting.
I like the 5E system in general. But I use none of the new lore.
I'm in the process of running the original Queen of the Spiders campaign for my 5E group.
One thing I think is worth noting regarding the Alfheim elves not letting shadow elves in is that if you do the math and look at how few elves actually live in Alfheim compared to some of the other nations, and consider how verdant their orchards are (thanks to all that water they stole from Ylarum) I think they might’ve actually been full of shit when they said there just wasn’t enough room for the shadow elves. They should be able to support like 5 times their current population, easily.
Not to get too political, but I think a DM can draw some inspiration from real life since it’s often the same way when large groups refugees ask to move into large wealthy nations - they don’t want them (what if the foreigners outnumber us!) so go on about how there just aren’t enough resources to go around regardless of how transparently false that is.
Maybe I just like portraying the Alfheim elves as selfish arrogant dickheads, but that’s how it is in my Mystara games. Of course most elves of either “race” don’t know about all that, but it informs my behind the scenes decisions.
There is an obvious subtext that seems to be that Alfheim leadership does not want not have their lower their standards of living to be able to help their cousins equal theirs. But both sides leaders are happy to use it to keep their populations apart and under their own control. If they merged, someone's elite groups and leaders are going to lose some measure of wealth and control, even if the Shadowelves would ultimatly gain more, and Alfheim maybe would too.
It might make an interesting campaign...if a little too close to home for a lot of players who might not like the...real world implication's.
To play elf's advocate (a worse position than the guy stuck playing devil's advocate) could they have done so without harming their forest home? Now if you'll excuse me I have 108 consecutive showers to take to attempt to wash the filth of defending elves off of me.
Awesome video as usual!
👍
Thumbs up before watching 'cause this had to be done.
Shadow elves do have longer range dark vision in 1st ed
Hey I like the Drow's Glam Metal meets BDSM look. Though I suppose it's lost A LOT of it's charm it later renditions, and that's not JUST a kink thing. I mean I won't lie, I do think it's hot, but I unironically think it's really cool looking. Though I do miss the baddass looking sinister mustaches the dudes used to sport.
But yeah they have really been spoiled. I liked the idea of Good Drow, but think the Realms should have kept them rare, Eilistraeen Drow should have been a rare nomadic community that primarily roamed the world at night, preferably keeping the Glam Metal look but trading out the Leather & Chains for a more Gypsy esq aesthetic, & most of all they should have remained RARE, rarer even than Evil Drow. Maybe showing up as a surprise in 1 FR module per edition AT MOST.
Also Drow rules should not be in the Core Rulebook. That was a major red flag for 5e, it's essentially the Forgotten Realms of editions really. Honestly only Humans, Halflings, Dwarves, more standard Elves (High and Wood), & MAYBE Gnomes should be in the Players Handbook. Honestly it would be nice if the Gnome slot was filled by a standardized "Big Guy" Race instead. Goliaths could slot nicely into most settings. However, this would be a big departure from tradition. Basically if it's in the PHB it needs to be something that would be available in most settings, and would not be evil by default. Drow should only be in the Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, & Eberon Setting Book's. Tiefling's should be in Planescape & or Spelljammer stuff, Warfroged in Eberon, ect.
Of course my favorite setting Darksun has to reprint everything as all the races change significantly to some degree. Notably I'd actually like to add Eberon's Drow to Darksun, or something like them. I think they would fit in nicely. Got to drop the Scorpion God, (Demote him to their King? Make him a High Level Fire Cleric?) and lean into the Fire Worship a bit. Drop them into the Jungle fringes maybe? (Wouldn't want to make them subterranean.) Part of me would want to make them drop the Black Skin, or have their hair be blond or red in color, and rename them Ember Elves or something... Just to differentiate them a bit more. Have them be still be Evil by Default, but on the side of nature & the elements. So you can play with Darksun's Civilization vs. Nature motif a bit.
Half orcs did need to be in the PHB because it's an odd numbered edition
1:20 no issues with resembling a certain pale skinned degenerate evil human offshoot from one of Gary's favorite author a little too closely? (Though those didn't have curly hair)
Vampire players?
@@Mr_Welch Ahahahaha. Was more talking Melniboneans but that works too.
7:01 I mean the free spells ere specific ones, ghostlingts and Darkness. Darkness was pretty good but some ghostlights seems not super useful.
While the Drizzt books (specifically the original 'Homeland' and 'Icewind Dale' trilogies) and the 'Menzoberranzan' boxed set were my introduction to Drow, my love of them wasn't just about the bdsm motif (though I do love me some sexy Drow women). I loved them for their scheming nature and the dark society in which they fought to survive. It made me sad to see them go from the incredibly intimidating and impressive creatures of 'Homeland' to the 'every Drow's a free-thinking snowflake' of later years.
In my Planescape campaign I had them working in the background, manipulating a complicated series of events that turned Sigil into a boiling pot of civil unrest and then intended to activate a nuke in the middle of the city. Had they succeeded, they'd have killed hundreds of the most powerful and important people in the Planes.
for the record there are no drow in dragonlance - while there are "dark elves" thats the name given to elves that have been exiled from elf community.
AND NO "DLS4 Wild Elves" IS NOT CANON!!
For those wanting to play drizzit ...
Please co sideri seppiku
The only time I ever played a Good Guy Drow was as a Divine Liberator of Eilistraee. (I did have to go thru Ranger, but I just wanted to be a Chaotic Good Paladin damn it! I also did not know about Bladesingers at the time, which is what I really should have done.) Does that count?
I just realized I have a tendency to like playing typically evil races as paragons of Good... Half-Orc Cleric of Torm, Tiefling Cleric of Ilmater... I'm worse than some of my players! Ok, maybe not, but yeah.
drizzt is the prototype edgelord.
"Drow were cursed with dark skin"
This is the most 80s Fantasy and/or Mormon thing I have heard in a while
So what’s your take on Pathfinder’s take on drow? With an active curse, like a fanatic elf general morphing into one when she killed a bunch of people for not being anti-drow enough for her.
Also, I disagree with your dismissal of certain… unfortunate implications behind the use of “humanoids” (orcs, hobgoblins, etc) in a lot of fantasy settings. But this is not the time or place for that discussion. The drow were NOT that, but the various retcons (the “fall” of Lolth and her kids you mentioned) made them that.
While I appreciate them coming at it with a different take they can just as easily created their own race of bad guy elves. Better to create than alter
That is true. Sometimes they were a bit too limited by trying to be "D&D, but..." Have to hand it to Keith Baker and the rest of the Ebberon guys for creating the barbarian raider and creepy death cult elves.
So, this is the second time you mentioned the name change of Specularum and the laughter that ensued. As you know, I’m not very smart, so why all giggling like schoolgirls?
Look it up
Per friends from the old TSR, it sounded too much like speculum for the players
Jesus, that is really fucking stupid.
@@johnbalk6091 yes, especially since "-larum" sounds nothing like "-lum" so it entirely hinges on the "specu-" portion; the same root for words such as "spectacle", "spectacular", and another term for corrective eyewear to list a few.
Shadow elves are cute.
4:11 Drizzt is also a copycat... Of Elric.
I hated the destruction of alfheim
We get it welchly you don't like drow ! I,m just kidding i,m a moon elf men myself
Best elves \o/
Not really
Everytime someone mentioned Drizzt they mention how they're thousands of player characters that copy him but I've never actually seen one before. Maybe it was just a boomer thing.
Was a huge thing in the 90's, he was the sudden face of D&D and Drow were massively overpowered in 2nd edition.
@@Mr_Welch That makes sense.
I envy you. I had a guy who did nothing but that, as we as our resident evangelical atheist who played a Cadderly clone in the regular. Their ideas of original characters was to change a weapon choice or which bad attempt at a Cambridge accent they were going to forget to use when speaking in character.
How bad was it, you ask? My freighter, loaded with weapons for the Rebel Alliance, was shot down over a heavily forested planet advanced I discovered that spell resistance applied to blasters but don't worry! DMPC good guy drow is will be our guide.
I got the hyperdrive online and triggered a minor extinction level event by activating it while in the not exactly underdark.
🤣🤣🤣🤣
I think you should watch the Extra Credits on orcs. It is more drawing attention to how writing and characterizing your evil people group can slide into bad stereotyping and comparisons towards certain things
Well I agree the Drow thing is a weird stretch when you look at some of the oddities I wouldn't be surprised if their was something dumb.
i got here because i saw a shadow elf in arcade game dungeons and dragons tower of doom.
Ok now for more positive comment - since you mentioned Eberron, have you thought of doing video on how to port Artificer to Mystara? With all the Blackmoor tech, Gnomes and Dwarves it feels it would fit. Plus people who like to point out Mystara did a lot of things Eberron did first would likely be happy.
It's already on the list
@@Mr_Welch Great. I'm prepping Mystara campaign and possibly future campaigns in the setting, your videos and Vaults and Piazza have been a lot of help.
Does Wizards of the coast still hold the rights to the setting?
MrWelch makes sound it like a very cool setting and I am feed up with the Sword Coast
They own all the TSR IP for dnd
@@Mr_Welch Shame
Vaults of Pandius is a fan site for Mystara/ known world setting and all related settings ( Red Steel , hollow earth and the like) and should give you loads to work with you can also get the old stuff off drive thru rpg and similar sites. Even if Wizards won't make new stories for the setting doesn't mean you can't.
I need to challenge you on the "Orcs aren't a stand-in for minorities". Sadly Tolkien, who invented them, in one of his letters flat out admitted Orcs are stand-ins for Mongols. Gary Gygax also didn't do the "it's not racist" stance any favors when he tried to defend why LG Paladin would kill Orc babies...by quoting John Chivington. After that shit's gonna stick, it's up to each DM to clean it in his campaign.
That may have been _Tolkien's_ idea, but it's not an integral part of Orcs as used in D&D (or other games).
I'd say D&D is pretty vague when it comes to Orc culture and customs (aside from being full-time raiders). The only (monstrous) humanoid with an "implied ethnicity" I can think of are Ogre Magi (which are supposed to be Japanese Oni more often than not, which usually just means slightly Japanese-style armor and weapons).
What you make out of Orcs depends on the setting you're using.
(Plus "Savage marauders threatening civilization as we know it" is a concept that could have all sorts of historical references, be it nomadic hill tribes during the Bronze Age Collapse or Germanic tribes during the later years of the Roman Empire.)
The whole "What if you find _orc babies_ ?" thing is a giant can of worms and a bit of a dick move to drop on an unsuspecting party trying to enjoy an entertaining dungeon crawl in a system which _by default_ assumes objective morality as a universal constant.
It's kind like watching Luke and Han Solo mow down a bunch of Stormtroopers only for them to find out that the Star Destroyer they're on is currently having a Bring Your Kids To Work Day.
@@EvilDoresh I only brought up Orc babies in the relation to how Gary Gygax shat the bed on any chances of divorcing Orcs from topic of racism when he tried to defend killing Orc babies with "nits make lice" - the same argument John Chivington used as his excuse to commit a real-life mass murder of up to 163 Cheyene and Arapho noncombatants, women and children. Creator of d&d went and made a connection between killing Orcs and an act so racist even for 1800's it was too much. Chivington is one of few people who have achieved hitler-levels of being despised, almost every movie ever made with him portrays him as a monster (he was a favorite villain of 1950's westerns even). After that, I don't think just saying "orcs aren't meant to be racist" is enough, DM needs to work to flesh them out so they don't. You can than Gygax for it.
@@IdiotinGlans The only winning move is to keep your dungeons baby-free.