Making PCB with 3D printer and permanent marker
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 มี.ค. 2015
- Using permanent marker, a 3D printer and etching to create a PCB.
I used FreePCB to create PCB layout and a gerber-file. I then used Flatcam to generate g-code for my K8200 3D-printer. A sharp metal rod is then removing the ink from the copper clad, and then it can be etched with ferric chloride. Tutorial: www.lamja.com/?p=635 - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
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We didn't have 3D printers but back in the 80s we played around with permanent markers and used an HP plotter to draw the traces. It worked! Some markers worked better than others. We also printed thick film resistors and silver filled epoxy bridges right on the board with it.
I have an hp7475a plotter that I used for this exact purpose like 5 years ago.
God, people here seem to have no idea what is going on. It's a 3d printer with a pointed copper rod attached to the print head, it's not a CNC mill. He spread permanent marker across the copper clad board to act a chemical resist, preventing the etching solution from dissolving the copper. The rod on the printer is used to scrape off the marker in the areas he wants to be etched.
That is one of the best methods I've seen so far, besides the CNC method.
out there are many other methods of making a PCB, most of them more elegant and fast.
but this one sure as hell works with an excelent result.
scratching the surface with a metal rod ... talk about simplicity. nice job there.
I have a T8 CNC machine and it is really messy and dusty milling a PCB. This method seems easy, tidy and quite practical. I might try this someday. Good job. Thanks for the idea.
Ah, It's a good time to be alive. This is so satisfying.
From all methods of making pcbs at home I tried this is the best if you have a 3d printer. End result is really good. Forget plotting with a marker, mounting milling capabilities on printers, toner transfer etc cause this one is easy and reliable. And as a bonus, the printer makes most of the parts you need itself. Tried it on an Ender 3 with great result from first run.
I havent thought of this, Ive been trying to cut with bits!. Thanks for posting
This is great! I might have to give this a try sometime!
Amazing. A year ago i found your 20x servos code (really helpful), but never knew you also did this until just now.
I've been experimenting with making flexible PCBs outof aluminium foil & tape, etched with drain cleaner, but have been having trouble figuring out the best way to apply a resist. What you've done here is the closest i've seen anyone else get to my own project, and has given me some exciting ideas.
You just make the trace widths 50% (iirc) wider, then you have the same resistance values as a copper trace of equal layer thickness. Or even easier: keep your original PCB layout and just increase the aluminium layer height by 50%. It's not a problem. The problem is joining things (ie: components), as far as i can see soldering aluminium is a big pain in the arse.
Copper is a relatively scarce resource, i've become a bit worried about the possibility of the planet reaching peak-copper. IIRC there's only enough copper on the planet for every person to have a couple of kilograms each, it's going to be a problem, it will become especially noticable when we try to electrify the entire world's car fleet (which will happen / is happening already). Best to get ahead of that curve and avoid the problems. Aluminium electrical wire is already in heavy use for civil electrical distribution, because (even tho they use 50% more material than copper) it's more lighter weight than copper and is a lot cheaper.
Also i'd say that drain cleaner is a lot safer for the environment than ferric chloride, not to mention cheaper and easier to source. There's advantages and disadvantages, but in the long term we may not have a choice. So... best start getting some techniques hashed out now.
There's a lot of clever thinking that went into this. Thanks for posting.
great method. i like it that much ive decided to do it as well. thanks!
how did you get the drill holes into your gcode file? when i open my .xln and grb in flatcam there not aligned. the circuit prints fine..the drill hole template dot...no. its like it has no geometry to it>? please help....
It's cool. Also, I have a 4-axis CNC mill, so I could do the same, but PCB services, like OSH park are so dirt cheap and quick, and they do silk screen and solder mask, and they can do 4-layers, so it's just not worth spending the time to do my own PCBs.
Nice memories though. I made my first one when I was 10...
I love this.
Very well done.
A mini CNC mill is much easier to implement and it can also drill the through holes and cut the board outline.
And at about the same cost as a modified 3D printer.
Still, kudos to you for doing this, Lamja Electronics.
You are legend.
Genially! Cool inventor! Thanks for the video
It is a fantastic idea, I am testing it on a homemade machine, and it looks very good, as you said, an important point is the type of permanent marker used, thank you very much for sharing your work and design, greetings!
Excellent!... I wish I had one of these machines in my times.
Excellent Idea. Pity that I disposed my K8200 because it was so big for the small printing volume of 20x20x20 cm. The latest printer I have, is not much bigger, but can print 10x bigger (40x40x50 cm), has excellent printing quality, almost no noise, and cost me in 2020 half of what I paid for the K8200 in 2014. Still have the K8200 parts. dedicated compact PCB workstation would be maybe a good idea.
theres a video and information on instructables..don't bother etching with ferric in a bath..just take a sponge and rubber gloves..apply straight onto the board and rub for 1 minute...use denatured alcohol to remove ink. I got a stepcraft cnc and will use that to drill out the holes AND plot the design. Your idea idea of a permanenet marker plotter pen is excellent..
Vinil cutter reused as a cnc for pcb, genius, thanks for sharing
I had this idea after seeing something similar done with a laser-cutter, but you actually put it into practice! Thanks for sharing!
Next, you should make a spin-coating machine to speed up the mask application step. You can get bottles of etchant-resistant inks. Try searching for "lumocolor" or "inkjet pcb".
This is Genius! I will implement this in my 3d printer, (Prusa i3) and try this at home !!!!
This would be perfect if there was some servo controlled arm with a sponge which could wipe the tip clean...
Really nice! Result looks good. I guess not to difficult to mount on K8400 instead of second extruder. Amazing.
I think you could use a good black spray paint or even a roller just to cover the board. Paint remover would be required at the end stage . I don't see why an expensive magic marker has to be used. Magic marker is probably cheaper for short runs though. The process itself is absolute;y brilliant and original, I am impressed by the creative genius of the process. This should save on the milling bits. Creativity like this is the soul of youtube.
Thank you very much. Is it possible applied in my CR-10 3D printer?
Brilliant!
The result is too good for this method. I previously attempted the same with not much success. Good work. Slow yet good.
This kind of crap is why I don't sleep at night.... Too much shit to make.
+Lord Pyrex seriously I always feel overwhelmed at the amount of things to make
Tell me about it
This tool will give you a chance to have long a sleeping nights :
check this out intmindsco.launchrock.com
Lord Pyrex
Exactly
use "sleeping lube pro" and relax
Looks like it worked great. How would I change my 3D software to do this?
Fantastic work man
Very clean result!
why not turning it to CNC?
Outstanding idea and workaround. Thank you so much for sharing.
this is good for single sided, but i'm taking this idea to the next level using the black marker and similar engraver, but 3D printing a bed of tubular supports and two of the supports have designed into them counter sunk 5.5mm socket head M3 screws used as alignment pins for double sided or multi-layer fast prototyping using multiple size PCB rivets and 0.6/1.0mm copper solid rivets made from solid wire. good enough for prototyping
This is the most amazing idea I've ever seen THANKS A LOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The metal rod, has a spring to avoid damaging the copper plate right? What 3d printing parts you use to adapt your rod on the K8200 3d-prineter head? (can you share it?)
What the material of your "sharp metal rod" steel? copper? the wast of ink dont
it takes lot of time (about more than 5x times if milling it, right?)
Does not the paint residue dirty the metal rod? You dont need to clean the rod from time to time to avoid accumulating the ink residue?
Thank you for posting this idea!
Good idea. This is the super brain from basic work.
Very good. THAT would also work very well with DyKem.
pretty cool, now i'm wondering if the same thing would work using a laser to burn off the ink?
you can use photosensitive PCB material and use a Laser on that one ;) but I am sure u've found videos on that topic until now :p
Que materiales utilizante para crear la impresora?
Nice idea, thanks for the inspiration ! never thought of it, thank you
How did you drill holes? And if I want to make a double -layer pcb, how to metalize holes？Thx~
тоже метод. Кто лазером краску сжигает, кто то фрезой со шпинделем (и травить не надо)....а кто печатает на принтере шаблон на плёнке, и с помощью фоторезиста создаёт себе печатные платы. Но некоторые в России уже обленились, и стали заказывать, отсылая по электронной почте только рисунок печатной платы.
It looks good actually but your project does not require a high precision with thin pads and tracks like i.e. QFM packages.
The final precision will allways depend of the printer's precision.
A 2D laser with CNC engraver should be sufficient and may be cheaper for the same final result meanwhile this solution would work for those who allready own a 3D printer.
I like a lot this way to make the PCB.
why am i just finding this in 2020?
Just found it in 2022, what have you made with your 3D Printer?
Well done!
hola amigo buen video lo felicito don en que programa hiso el codigo por favor gracias
This is very well done. Loved the video.
Awesome my good friend. very well done.
Nicely done! This can also be done using laser correct?
did you tried use wax instead of marker?
We used wax for etching (engraving) mineral glass. (with acid)
Quanto tempo levou pra ficar completa?
Saw someone suggest using paint and a brilliant idea formed. You can spray paint it and then scratch off the paint with the machine and etch it. After that you can scratch away the paint from the solder pad and have a beautiful solder mask left. Isn't it wonderful?
That's what Ben Heck did. Spray paint is definitely the way to go if you're dead set on wasting your time like this.
Where on earth am I supposed to get that thingy u start off with
WOW....I have been looking to construct somthing similar, and there are a lot of ideas, but this one its realy simply and so good thing. Next week I am going to buy some material and make the same project. Thank you so much to share this wonderfull project. Best regards from Spain.
I tried this method and it works pretty good. But why not replace the metal rod with a permanent fine liner and write all the PCB lines on the copper. You can do more passes to get a good line if necessary. Should be good enough for pcb's with not to thin lines. I will try it.
I did this on my Ender 3 pro and it works so well!!! No more laser printer nonsense ;)
Sorry, I just got a Ender 3 pro myself, and am hoping to use it for PCBs, why is it that this is better than a laser? I was under the impression that laser is the way to go?
@@contrabass8126 Laser is better, this is cheaper
@@contrabass8126 Laser is better. Higher DPI. 1200dots/inch gives you really god resolution and optically exposing will give you the best transfer.
What did you used for corosion? I tried so much markers but with feric cloride it removes areas of the marker paint aswell
How construction the this cnc machine design
Really nice.
I'd probably go for a Dremel engraving bit coupled to a small 380 sized RC Car motor.
Worst case scenario is the bit just scratching away the marker *in one pass*.
Best case scenario is the bit also carving away the copper underneath.
Similar to what was shown one could adjust the desired result by a rubber or, preferably, a spring to give in.
awesome idea!
hi, it was very clever idea to print it opposite. i always thought of putting the marker on the print head, but using the rod actually is more effective, and gets rid of many problems ! brilliant ! :)
want to try this some day, after i master motor controlling with arduino.
+iceberg789 I thought the same !! using the fine tip to remove excess permanent ink is brilliant !
Have you tried with a laser graving machine to remove the ink? It could be more precise.
Im sure you will be faster if u use a PCB with foto active skinn and then make a print with UV light. Tought u use it to remove all copper, what would make sense, about then is no chemical need.
Awesome display of yak shaving AAA+++. Now do double sided with a 3d printed alignment jig!
I love this, Super cool.
Processo bem diferente mais muito bom também pretendo montar uma dessa
Parabéns gostei muito do seu vídeo apesar de ser simples adorei, seu vídeo mostra uma outra maneira fácil de se utilizar uma CNC.
That’s a seriously good looking board, I like the technique, wondering where you came by the etching tool for the printer?
Job well done 👍🏼, Barnie
The spring-y CNC end mills like that are called drag engravers. You'll probably want a diamond-tipped one.
I think if you add the permanent marker to the CNC/printer, you could mark out the pathways and wash off all copper that isn't a pathway, like most standard PCB's do (for a good reason). Should also save you a lot of time, as you don't need to go back over a lot of lines again.
Agree - would much more sense
Also, not sure what the commands are in gcode, but I'd go looking for the Z axis instructions for the pen up/down. In HPGL is PU & PD - if you remove those from between the contour lines that are associated you'll be amazed how much run time it saves.
There's signage software out there which allows you to create a concentric router path which instead of being a series of concentric shapes is actually one continuous path along concentric shapes, I used to use software called Casmate Pro for doing logos for diamond drag engraving (which is effectively what you're doing) which produced much faster run times. ;-)
hi! excelent work! did you change anything on the marlin config? or the software recognise it?
Carlos Guerrero Hi. I had to change the g-code generated by FlatCam a bit. I replaced all "Y" with " Y" to get a space between x an y coordinates. I did nothing to Marlin.
pilleyuppo23 What diagram did you use for it to print?
Muito bom pra quem não tem fresa ou até mesmo uma ferramenta para o corte
good method. I liked very much your idea. I'll try your method with my cnc. I will first tracks and after drilling with cnc.
This is probably obvious, but is it not feasible to just plot filament, possibly Petg, and then just wash away the uncovered copper?
interesting idea, i might have to try that.
far quicker..too, this isnt 3d printing its just computerized etching
I don't think it's possible, mainly because you need very high precision, 100% coverage of the area which is not etched, and the printed layer must be very thin. PCBs can be quite complicated, and I think it would need a lot of manual touch-up work afterwards. It would also be far more expensive... comparatively. As for the speed, well... that depends on your settings and controller.
What do you mean manual touch-ups? Does a 3d-printer extrude inconsistantly? Regarding thickness - how thin is the average 3d print head nozzle? It seems smaller than pcb traces.
Most are 0.4mm these days as standard, but I suspect also that such thin lines may struggle to stick to the copper surface properly, without some kind of adhesive, although large solid etched patches might stick okay due to the increased surface area. This is still a common issue on every 3d printer I know of, and you'll see on many forums that people go to great lengths looking for something to help their parts stick - for example, Frog tape, Pritt stick, PVA and water mixture in a spray bottle. Non-gloss ceramic works wonders due to its porous surface, such as the back of a bathroom tile. But yes it can be quite inconsistent such as going around sharp corners or just a single track peeling off where someone's fingerprint grease was left on a corner! Sufficient cleaning with isopropyl could prove me wrong, however, which I'd like very much.
A better solution may be to just clamp a finer marker pen to the CNC head and invert the print somehow.
Автору огромное спасибо! Это то, что я искал! Если кто то знает лучший способ - пусть напишет! Автор видео показал лучший способ! Спасибо! Я мог бы и сам додуматься, но не додумался.
How did you make the modification to the 3d printer, could you share the pieces you printed to be able to do it?
It's all in the tutorial via the link in the decription.
Have you tried to drill holes of the PCB with the 3D printer?
why not mount the pen in the printer and have it draw the tracks straight on to the clean copper? ...that's what I do, and I get very good results.
+Gabriel Rd smaller trace. I think the the tip of the pen is quite large for delicate trace of SMDs and QFP etc.
Lâm Đặng OK, thanks. I might try out your method to see how it goes.
how big is your pen point?
Does the marker need to be a certain type or have a certain chemical ingredient in it that you know of to be resistant to the etching? I'm just wondering how clean it would be if you had done an exact negative of what you made here... because obviously you have made an opposite of what would be a useful pcb right? Very nice though and just shows that with any machine that has x, y, z control, the possibilities are far beyond the recommended use. Good job.
+3D_ Tech this isn't a negative. You only need to remove a copper border around each trace, and that's what has been done here. There's no need to remove any more, it would only waste time and acid.
Brilliant! You get a subscriber!
WOW !!!
Why did not I think of that?
Thanks!
:)
is that a metal scribe?
Nice work.
eres un genio, tenia una idea similar pero usando un laser para quemar la pintura, saludos
What about mounting a fine-tip sharpie to your print head and drawing out the traces?
brainfarth I tried that also. But this method is more accurate.
Nice work ,could you describe how you did it, and what programs do you use?
radu - ionel rusu Hi. I used Flatcam to generate g-code. flatcam.org/
pilleyuppo23 i tried to load the file in pronterface, but it did not like it. what software did you use to send it to the machine? I have a ultimaker and i'm on ubuntu 14.04
Simon Claessen found it: bCNC. works as expected.
Simon Claessen Hmm after fixing my printer for a whole day, bCNC is not able to communicate with the printer. pronterface has no problems, but cannot send the file...
Hey, If I want to export Gerber from EAGLE which cam processor should I use?
Someone is a smart little cookie :)
Great idea!What is your pcb software?
I used FreePCB for this. But I have started using Kicad instead.
this is cool, thank you.
Muito bom !!!! Parabens !!! E obrigado pela ideia !!!
nice work,good idea,you need to do a tutorial because is great!
cool , i was going to just tape a sharpie to my head and put a few mm z offsetset and try that !
Hello, this was so good to watch! I am quite new to it all and don't quite understand how the final product works. Say I put a +ve wire in that first hole above the first W, and a -ve wire under the last M, I can see that from the design the intention is that no current should flow. But as the PCB has depth, wouldn't current just flow through the inner material of the PCB anyway? Sort of like the ice cream in an ice cream snadwich, it runs all the way through the middle no matter what shape the biscuit either side of it takes up?
Now I'm hungry :)
+Mirandorl
The board is then submersed in ferric chloride so all of the bare copper is etched away. The ferric chloride can't penetrate the permanent marker and so that copper is left behind. Acetone can be used to wash away the black thus producing a pcb.
+Peter Lawrence true, but the result we see in the end of the video. If the chloride etches the copper away and afterwards we clean the marker away, we would have some wierd lines?
the cooper between the black lines should be keept right?
+Mirandorl The thing is, the thin layer of copper on top has been etched away. Think of it more like this, you have a plate covered in ketchup, plate being non-conductive, ketchup being conductive. The etching would be like you drawing a smiley face in the ketchup with your finger as to expose the plate. Since the plate isn't conductive, the "etched" parts don't allow current to pass, thus you have created a very messy PCB.
i'd say this is more like a CNC machine than a 3d printer, cool idea though!
3d printer is a cnc machine
+rawux1228 that's right, but main difference is that 3D printer creates something by extruding/hardening something layer by layer, when CNC in general uses milling/cutting of solid material.
So, it would be better to say that this is general CNC, not a 3D printer.
No both are CNC machines. CNC= Computer Numerical Control. You can use CNC for any manufacturing process. The difference is one is a CNC Printer, the other is a CNC Mill.
You know what i mean't, So when you tell someone to go use the CNC machine, do they stop to ask which one, the printer or the mill? or do they go straight to the mill? Chances are they will go to the mill, probably every time!
Anyways, let me now revise myself to your semantics.
"This is more like a CNC Mill"
Since you're taking away material, not printing it.
Well, some shops have mills, routers, lathes, etchers, and yes 3D Printers. They are all CNC machines. When someone wants to use them you call them by what they are. Mills, routers, lathes, etchers, and 3d printers. When you're in those shops the CNC is implied.
Great work but i'm wondering why did you use a marker and then etching ? Is milling made by the printer not enough ?
Abdullbasit AlHaita I did make a milling attachment for my pritner also. But it's a big mess. And noisy.
Impressive, though I will most likely continue to use ink printing method but this does look well done. You also really don't need a 3D printer for this as a 2D machine more like a printer would work just as well. Might be even cheaper to build but would have the downside of not being reusable.
whats the difference between this and the process of engraving same tool was used On a substrate of pure copper?
Less noise. Less mess.