Hmmm, I imagine Cardassian propaganda changed a good deal from the first half of the War to the second as the tides turned. One cannot help but think of the Italian propaganda later on under Mussolini's so-called Social Republic of 1943-1945 as a society more or less under occupation by their "Allies," fighting for a cause that wasn't their own. Also, a Cardassian joke: "How do you know the War is going poorly? [How?] Because you can take the Lakarian lunar shuttle from the Romulan Front to the Federation Front!"
Ah yes, an educated man! This is a derivation of the WWII German joke: "You know the War is going poorly when you can take the U-Bahn from the Western Front to the Eastern Front!" This is the "in the weeds" level of causal knowledge.
I can imagine an imitation of an Uncle Sam poster for the Klingons with Kahless pointing at you with the words "I want you to join the Klingon Defense Force. Honor & Glory awaits."
Hands down the best part is Ferengi selling holo vids to Klingons. Totally see that happening. Klingons wouldn't necessarily think of it and consider doing it considering their traditional mindset. Where as it is a perfect business opportunity for the Ferengi.
@5:30 for a real life example look up the Siege of Jadotville. A force of 155 Irish UN peacekeepers were encircled and attacked by a force consisting of 3000 mercenaries supported by 80mm mortars, 75mm artillery guns and a training jet converted into a ground attack aircraft. They held out for 5 days until they ran out of ammunition and water. In that time they 5 of their number were wounded but they managed to destroy the enemy mortars and artillery, killed up to 300 mercenaries and wounded up to 1000. After surrendering they were taken prisoner and were eventually released in a prisoner exchange program. When they arrived home the government of the day branded them as a disgrace and swept the whole event under the rug. However now that the events have received public recognition the soldiers and their commander are lauded as heros.
Only up until period of 1904-07, when Britain made alliances with both France and Russia and settled all differences between them. While Anglo-German naval race hotted up and turned German into Britain’s most likely enemy in a future war, given the empire new alliances.
Just look at Sisko's speech when they evacuated DS9: they sacrificed the station in order to strike at several enemy shipyards. It's all about controlling the narrative.
_"The speaker or writer who, seeking to influence public opinion, descends from calm argument to unfair blows hurts himself more than his opponent." FDR_ Propaganda is indeed a vital tool in warfare, for when all is said and done, victory in war depends just as much on the moral of its people both in and out of uniform as the battles themselves. Also, an intriguing compare & contrast between the different powers.
When you say "people can only think of a handful of things at a time" at 4:32, I couldn't agree more. Certainly one side might try to place an emphasis on a victory they had on one front, as opposed to a defeat suffered at the same time on another front. For obvious reasons, most viewers' perception of the Dominion War is based primarily on what they saw on Deep Space Nine... but even though those characters were undoubtedly key to how that all unfolded, there was a massive amount of warfare going on across a huge swath of space, and what we saw onscreen was merely a small fraction of it. To draw once again on the World War II parallels... there were so many different theaters and individual battlefronts going on simultaneously for a number of years, that no one person could have kept up with all of the developments on a daily basis. But the newsreels that made it back for widespread consumption among allied nation civilians in America or British commonwealth countries were generally tailored to emphasize what was preferable to those governments, even though the media was nominally independent. But while that war seems massive to us today, it only encompassed one single planet. Expand that out to an interstellar scale, and it magnifies exponentially, with hundreds of military actions occurring in dozens of star systems on a daily basis. When the fog of war billows out that far, that creates a lot of room for obfuscation by parties interested in obfuscating! Lastly, on a completely separate note, I appreciated the imagery you used at 17:43 when you discussed the Federation using freelance journalists. In my head, I always imagined that post Deep Space Nine, Jake eventually became a widely renowned journalist, who made his name by spending several months behind enemy lines during the Dominion War. 🙂
William Randolph Hurst to his photographers during the Spanish Civil War: "You provide the pictures, I'll provide the war." Wars, even in the 24th century, are won and lost in the newsroom as much, if not war, as they are on the battlefield. I believe that one of the most dangerous weapons to any soldier in a war is demoralization, beating him mentally to the point that he believes he can't win, no matter what. Consider the Klingons, who are motivated by song and legend. If every legend is sad and brutal, would they be so brave? Or the structure of the Romulan Star Empire, if the people were allowed to actually think. I love this, thank you so much Venom Senpai
1:30 The Dominion doesn't need soldiers, they manufacture them. That is one of the selling points, the Jem'Hadir means you will never have to fight a war as they will "protect" you or at the very least kill those that attacked you. 8:30 is a better one.
However the Jem'Hadir reliance on White, means their is a bottleneck weakness in their infrastructure. Target and destroy a major White production facility, you slow down their advancement considerably. With the stopping of traffic threw the Wormhole, and allying with the smaller powers, White production and availability seems to be an ongoing issue.
I think it would depend on the culture and the situation. It would work for a minor power or trade union experiencing pirate troubles. Join and we'll protect you, sounds good. To an established power or a warrior culture it would have the opposite effect, we don't need protecting.
Not sure if you would have seen this before but back in the 2000's there was a pretty unique starship fan design called the *Insignia Class*. It's a pretty flat design with some post-Sovereign ideas to it. It's been my favorite Star Trek ship for years now. I would love to see you include it in your universe. I think it would fit as a Light Battleship with good agility. It's almost as long as a Sovereign Class but with Pulse Phaser Cannons scattered around the hull, in addition to some standard Phaser Arrays. I would think that the Insignia Class would differ from the Sovereign as a front-line brawler happy in CQB, whereas the Sovereign is a mid-range generalist. The ship also does have Ablative Armor which, when combined with Pulse Phaser Cannons, suggests to me a ship meant to rush an enemy, get close and break up formations while still having 360 degree capital ship firepower, able to take on multiple smaller targets simultaneously with the aim of scattering formations leaving those smaller ships more isolated and able to be picked off by other allied ships in your fleet. I really, really, hope you'll be willing to cover this ship design.
Your analysis is most interesting, like always. Brings me to a different, yet connected point. Up until Picard S3, the UFP has seen the Dominion War, a major corruption scandal (Insurrection), the Scimitar (Nemesis), the obliteration of Mars (PIC S1), an attack from an unknown source (PIC S2), and a Borg resurgence, which was almost successful and has been planned for years. And all that happened in about 30 YEARS! How would UFP Media deal with that? Surely there are species more prone to populismus as well, like us humans. It is about the survival of the democratic spirit at some point. Personally, it saddens me that Star Trek hasn't gone into these grand social processes lately. Since this show has always been about progress, and since we live through a time of crisis ourserlves here, we could use such a lighthouse.
@@venomgeekmedia9886I have to wonder if setting Nemesis/Lower Decks, etc at ~2380 was deliberate to put some years since the war and can kinda smooth over such things. I mean, look how fast things were "smoothed over" regarding the border war with the Cardassians. O'Brien and the captain of the USS Phoenix were in many respects the only on screen 'consequences' visible of it. Though there were the Maquis, so that's a bit longer lasting on screen fallout. Didn't that border war run 10-20+ years?
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Hm. I can't help but feel Picard could have been that show, tieing in with the war's consequences so well. On a randomly different note btw - will you open a Discord in the future by any chance? That would be neat!
@@joe9739 Thank you for the Dipshit point of view on this topic, but sadly you may not be too far off. (Nevermind, that's just complete dipshit stuff even for the corporate media.) Meanwhile, back in Star Trek...
Dominion ( We are retaliating against aggressors ). Fedaration ( What about our Ships you just blow up for no reason when were not even aware of you ). Dominion (....Oh look at the time ). Runs off.
What I noticed about propaganda is how important the target audience or better its culture ist. There is a notable piece of early WWII German propaganda painting the Polish as incredibly stupid by claiming that the used cavalry charges at German tanks. In an online discussion an American used it as an example of propaganda that backfired because "it makes the Polish look totally badass". The other Americans in the thread agreed with him. The thing is modern Americans are not the target audience, 1940s Germans were. That story was actually so effective ist is still pervasive to this day. I grew up thinking that the WWII Polish army were idiots because of it (before I learned it didn't actually happen) and I have never heard a German interpret that propaganda piece any different. What is highly effective targeted at one culture achieves the opposite effect at another. The thing is German culture is highly pragmatic. A cavalry charge against tanks is pointless and has not even a chance of working. Therefore it is stupid. If it does not give you any advantage or even a chance when there are no other options, there is no reason for doing it. US culture (how I see it at least) is highly romantic. A desperate last charge by the underdogs (no matter how pointless) is something that resonates with the American soul. What for one culture is an act of true bravery is a stupid waste of time and lives for the other.
My favourite example of scifi propaganda is in Mass Effect 3 expanded galaxy mod. There, you have a quest about negotiating with Bekenstein industrialists about them supporting the war. They agree to provide their resources on condition that Shepard promises them defence in case of a Reaper attack. You obviously can't promise that sincerely, as Reapers are virtually unstoppable, but if you do so regardless, Councilor Udina praises you, as Bekenstein is located so close to the Citadel that such an invasion would be a game over anyways. He suggests flying a big, flashy cruiser over the planet's cities to further reinforce that the military will look after them.
It would be interesting to know how the Cardassians were portrayed by the media immediately after the war. Pitied? Dismissed? Ignored? Probably different by each race.
A shame DS9’s first six S6 episodes didn’t do a Dominionised version of the intro sequence with the Federation ships replaced with Cardassian and Dominion ships.
I understand why they didn’t do it but holy shit that would be amazing! Maybe even a Defiant or Constitution Class being blown up by a Dominion Battle Cruiser, in the background.
You know the Dominion may have played nice with Bajor and some of the fringe Federation worlds they occupied but look what happened to a core world like Betazed. When the whole story of what the Dominion did to thousands of civilains they experimented on and killed became known it confirmed them as pure evil!
Oh, yeah: *Wargames* would *absolutely* be the BIGGEST hit in Klingon markets imaginable! Plus, Gen. Martok would no doubt *use* those programs as a type of rapid training regiemine for his men, particularly if they say perform less-than-expected in an operation- if he's in any way a *competent* battlefield commander about upgrading his forces in their grasp of procedures!
great video! the fact that propaganda is not discussed enough in general society , at least here in the u.s., tells how effective propaganda works. it's like, without trying to start a political conversation, the propaganda surround the isreal conflict is based largely on emotional and to some extent religious context. however looking at the situation from a strategic economic standpoint our official diplomatic outlook of it does not make sense considering no economic or logistical losses would occur if we didn't intervene and let things play out for itself. maybe some prestige but tht is what it is. compared to ukraine, where a good portion of the world's grains come from. or like the red sea, where all that logistical traffic is now in danger, affecting the world supply chain. the propaganda of helping isreal as much as ukraine and dealing with the red sea on the side would take Federation style efforts to appease the populace. which i don't think exists. again, great video
And therin we have two nations..one which has invested a lot into winning international support and another which seems not to be. Just compare how much the UAF releases compared to the Stonewall style of the IDF.
propaganda is when an english bloke takes a real good look at something . hahah sorry had to make the joke . loved the video , hope more star trek dominion war stuff is coming down the pipeline
Plus, for Klingons who're on shore leave: war is kind of a way of life for them: so they'd have ways to cool down those functions in their minds; and I really do believe that PTSD is a rare condition for Klingon soldiers- it would be an odd health problem indeed at that.
Sometimes the image of a strong authoritarian state that Cardassia likes to portray itself as will backfire; especially when you actually analyze what leadership *is*: it is the trade of working *through* others; so you're really measured by the skills of your men and how well *they* perform is how well *you've* performed in their formation and equipping... and sometimes; the purpose of the finest forces imaginable is to NOT have to fight with them committed to the battlefield, but as a checkmate to any enemy that'd come after your people while your *factories* are really the mechanism of your fortresses; as in a type of self-regenerating defense grid that's really a huge mess to try to get through.
Stsr fleet had a nightmare with manpower problems during the war and wiyh casualties. Over 500 thousand starfleet dead . All needed to be replaced and the fleet had an expanded role post war peacekeeping and cardassian reconstruction. . Federation had more casualties than the klingons. Not to mention civilian casualties well over 200 million Federation dead . Judt on earth and betazed
Sticking to the shipping lanes is an incredibly and unforgivably *dumb* idea if you've got something like the Hutet roaming the shipping lanes hunting your trade vessels- if your foes know your shipping lanes: you immediately throw out that whole program without replacing it at all! If you're in the merchant marine; your best odds of evading any enemy forces and carrying out your tasks is like that of a raider: you do have anything to do with going where your foes would expect you to go: you be as random as possible, and go way further still!
Dunno what the klingon age of majority is but they dont seem to be a culture thats too opposed to child soldiers. If you can hold a batleth youre a warrior ig
i would love an insight as to how much the great powers tell their people about borg incursions, like was picards assumalation and envoment in wolf 353 hussed up hence why he was never tried in the couht of puplic opinion
Regarding the apparent lack of public support for the war among the Romulans: that's probably part of the reasons for Suran to go for a type of "Marius's Reforms" regarding recruiting the Remans; and while the senate was concerned about giving their slave-class combat skills: the Remans proved *very* eager: they managed to fully prepare in excess of 2 *billion* battalions in less than half-a-month for the front-lines: these guys LIKED the idea, and they proved very proficient. Oddly enough, the Remans proved very popular among not only the military but also the industrial laborers: the reason why is that they tended to have *exactly* the personality types needed for such careers- they tended to value not vanities but workplace skills; and I haven't any possible doubt that these guys would *absolutely* use holograms as both workers and combat soldiers, as well as security forces of all kinds. Regarding garrison and security services: you don't have to actually *be* what you're thought of as being; all that matters is that your conquered subjects *think* you are as strong as you appear to be for you to do your job... it really is a suppression task. By the way, I'd *absolutely* use fighters in terms of army operations primarily if I can in that kind of geopolitics in terms of ground combat! The airforce is the best weapon *possible* for that in general, unless you can recruit titanic guardians regarding strength and rapid recruitment- plus as basically those guys're stone age societies: they naturally translate over into ideal stormtrooper mentality of infiltration warfare at that, combined with light infantry tactics akin to mountain or forest warfare! Plus, seeing as these savages of conquered worlds are, in that case, basically stone-age societies: you offer them good quality weapons and the training in how to use them: and that's basically all it takes to recruit these guys!
Oh, yeah; regarding Klingon recruitment policies: those'd be primarily war-films and the like; HUGE branch of their society- as well as things like college speeches by types like war-heroes on how such operations are done best: I truly think a *major* branch of their forces would be "deep strike commandoes" as a department; as those guys would have to rely on clever footing and thinking on one's feet: truly manly Klingon values for how to defend a position. Bizarrely, that quality of taking and holding a position is also present heavily in societies that revere philosophy: the "graduation" from a course in philosophy, especially one on ethics, is that you have to be able to take and hold a position. It is competent footwork and development of a stance; it is a *skill-gaining course* primarily, much like a basic-training program, not unlike the Bamarran military institute in Cardassian society that "Commissar" Garak spoke of in his "diary" if you please: a stitch in time!
13:20 i dont think federation Propaganda would Show chang but gorkon. Chang is a good Commander but also almost Made the klingons Go to war with the federation through schemes
In the Star Trek Novel "Vulcan's Heart" there're some very interesting geopolitical views of internal Romulan society- now put yourself in Shiarkiek's shoes on the *throne* of said society: his best defense against insurrection is to find out about issues that could cause it and by say a public address counteract it- even to surrender himself to the judgement of his own citizens if need be; oddly enough, in their kind of colonial history mentality: that kind of a statesman's approach of appeal to his tenants is a career presevation skill- as cowardice and clinging to power really is a type of career-suicide if not also *actual* suicide here and there... it also shows a masculine security about things that says "I had no freedom to do that; I therefore yield on that issue, and fully accept the loss of *command* authority to the degree merited by the bad judgements I have either made or pushed through." kind of stance- plus any head-of-state really has to work *via* the training programs of his workers, be they civilian or military.... his own cousin, the lady in "the Enterprise Incident" actually seemed to be a bit of a "whistleblower" about things developing that'd throw the whole region into an interstellar war. It wasn't even that that did it to Dralath's government: no, he lost his job because of him ordering the political murder of a *toddler*; when that got out, as it was sure to, by a member of what'd be their same deal as the "Catechomes movement" in the days of Imperial Rome who was also another cousin of their hereditary ruler- lets just say that the entire populous of Ki Baratan rose up in a *riot* at the idea of that kind of running amok! They did NOT like Dralath's ideas of how to operate. Now in Cardassian society, they apparently do have some echoes of their spiritual past, with their idea that the head of state does NOT shed blood himself, regardless of need, come what may- doing that will ruin his career administration for life! NOT exactly atheists, if you get my meaning; no: those guys that hold to that really do NOT have morals left, especially for long!
Yeah, about the Ferengi making inroads into Klingon society; maybe Quark had something to do with that... what with his brief time as a Klingon aristocrat in "House of Quark"... now he *would* be cunning enough to make contracts like that- and the contract *is* one of his society's elements... it also does stand to reason that his situation is NOTHING unusual at all about these kinds of societies, about intermarriage and the like. And plus, no Ferengi man would *ever* turn down a business offer he knows he can do and do well- that's a kind of corporate suicide; and to them: "spiritual" suicide as well, second only to taking a deal from their devil-character: "The Smiling Partner" as they refer to him/it.
One *major* detail that confirms that the Federation is NOT in any way socialist is that you never ever get a free-press where you have socialism, but the Cardassian Union *absolutely* was socialistic in all of the branches of its society.
Yes, the elements of Jake Sisko and his business dealings with Weyoun; including where Weyoun pretty much warns off his state's guards from impeding his movements; that'd kind of actually be part of that Vorta's job duties as a state officer at that- plus he'd be trying to turn the guy into a propagandist for his own state's stances- of course; it is the sole thing that makes any real sense at all! Plus, seeing as Odo has had some signficant experience with these guys, directly or indirectly, his people would be really kind of dumb to NOT have him directing their operations in the region- that's one reason why states use planted officers in eachother at the earliest opportunity, and take the greatest care to subvert them, and to convert their propagandists in the meantime! It only makes sense that they'd do that. In general: if operating, *expect* sanity among self-aware minds: if you don't have that showing through: be distrurbed, but be happy; as it is way easier to outthink an animal than a man; and if you're say in the shoes of Weyoun when you meet your new, literally, fallen-angel "colleague" "Kosst Amojan", you should be *really* freaked out; as you're definitely dealing with a very powerful and incredibly *sadistic* mind!
A war is half won by convincing the people of your enemy that youre the lesser evil. Thats why every proper conqueror declares himself to be a liberator.
Plus bringing down a *bear* with nothing but a hunting knife as he's said to have done, a bear that is able to easily decaptate him; that's a recipe for *clout* in that kind of a hunter-society!
Klingon poets and singers and playwrites do that regularly; about rewriting defeats or losses as a tale of courage and proper dignity... that's one of their careers: to keep the will to defend oneself and one's house alive. *Those* guys're their propagandists: their opera writers and performers!
Gen. Chang was involved in the *murder* of his boss; NOT the type of guy you'd consider a hero by any reasonable standards- at least Kor operated with some regulations of operations in his occupation and conquest of Organia- however brutal he may've been; and he'd consider ironically that as a job attibute: someone who his state could point to and say that that's the basic mentality of most of our officers, do you feel lucky today? kind of stance. Even that aside, no barbarian commander was stupid; they had to be cunning and clever to be able to accomplish their goals; as they were *universally* short on odds of survival; what with lacking medical care and the like; and always being short on the best military equipment- oddly enough, most of those guys sold their services to regular states as mercenary units to get things like meat, cheese, drink, clothes and bread- plus it was a regular supply base: to career military men: that's worth a LOT! Reliable supplies are a *major* recruitment binge for men who're basically raised as career soldiers, be they local savages who've simply been recruited by the odds of getting better gear or nomads: that's a trait that's *unbelievably* tempting to them- especially if they know that as long as they can keep on your good side; they get regular resupplies: HUGE attractant to that kind of man!
Why is propaganda important ? How else are the bad guys going to convince the public they are the good guys ? E.G. Sisko not only gassed an inhabited planet but also mined international space ... BOTH would be war crimes but oddly enough Starfleet supported both actions . Still a war crime but they decided to overlook them (?) Yeah the Dominion was about some dodgy stuff but at least it was LEGAL . Not even getting into Sisko attacking allies during an engagement to save "enemy" leadership .....
@@birdmonster4586 I recognize the name . I watch most of the Star Trek related channels here . Why , someone out there actually agree with me about Sisko ?
Lets say I were to have wound up some high-office-holder in such a state; or their overlord state: the problem is that suppressing the story is, in and of itself, *really* problematic, at *best*: the reason why is that if you shut up criticism: you're really engaged in basic treason, especially as your state really *is* the people, the government is merely an extension of your people, to the point that government is technically nothing but a forum for discussing issues, both foreign and domestic. That said; you do want to acknowledge that these failures are out there; as that's the *first* thing people would need to know to be able to protect themselves, and that's your *first* duty as defense minister so to speak: to train the people to defend themselves and their settlements- if only so that when your troops arrive someone's left *alive* in the settlement at worst-comes-to-worst kind of deal; and any strategist in HQ who does NOT consider that is being really unreilable to his own employers; and when you calcluate what *government* work is: you really acutally have a lopsided command structure: you have the most bosses *imaginable* in any business or labor situation anywhere! That said, really you're nothing but a paper-pusher if you're the head of the executive branch of your country's government; and one clue of just how strong such a state *is* is how popular that system of administration has become on this planet in the past two or so centuries in real time! Guys in any type of work will want the most productive means of doing their jobs; and in a state with the press not even remotely controlled by the government; if you really *are* the head of said government; you can pretty easily feasibly count on good quality feedback- a vital skill to any national leader of any kind of state imaginable!
The Dominion uses Lore Reloaded's videos.
Isn't that this one YT Channel?
Goddamn somebody brought the plasma torpedos.
Romulans: There is no war in Ba Sing Se.
Hmmm, I imagine Cardassian propaganda changed a good deal from the first half of the War to the second as the tides turned. One cannot help but think of the Italian propaganda later on under Mussolini's so-called Social Republic of 1943-1945 as a society more or less under occupation by their "Allies," fighting for a cause that wasn't their own.
Also, a Cardassian joke: "How do you know the War is going poorly? [How?] Because you can take the Lakarian lunar shuttle from the Romulan Front to the Federation Front!"
Ah yes, an educated man! This is a derivation of the WWII German joke: "You know the War is going poorly when you can take the U-Bahn from the Western Front to the Eastern Front!" This is the "in the weeds" level of causal knowledge.
I can imagine an imitation of an Uncle Sam poster for the Klingons with Kahless pointing at you with the words "I want you to join the Klingon Defense Force. Honor & Glory awaits."
Hands down the best part is Ferengi selling holo vids to Klingons. Totally see that happening. Klingons wouldn't necessarily think of it and consider doing it considering their traditional mindset. Where as it is a perfect business opportunity for the Ferengi.
Glad you like the idea. Klingons are ferengi are such and odd but amusing combo.
Agreed. ...Wait. Does this mean that the Klingon Academy game could be a Ferengi made holo-program sold in the Klingon Empire?
As those two episodes pairing Quark and Grika together proved very well
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Okay but I'd low key love a video game that was supposed to be a Ferengi made Klingon recruitment tool.
@5:30 for a real life example look up the Siege of Jadotville. A force of 155 Irish UN peacekeepers were encircled and attacked by a force consisting of 3000 mercenaries supported by 80mm mortars, 75mm artillery guns and a training jet converted into a ground attack aircraft. They held out for 5 days until they ran out of ammunition and water. In that time they 5 of their number were wounded but they managed to destroy the enemy mortars and artillery, killed up to 300 mercenaries and wounded up to 1000. After surrendering they were taken prisoner and were eventually released in a prisoner exchange program. When they arrived home the government of the day branded them as a disgrace and swept the whole event under the rug. However now that the events have received public recognition the soldiers and their commander are lauded as heros.
During WWII, the US made films like “Know Your Ally- Britain.” Someone needs to make Know Your Ally - The Klingons.
Well there's the "klingon" PC game featuring gowron which is a canonical holodeck program lol.
A *challenging* film to make after the shit the Klingons got up to on the Archanis Sector.
Without a doubt, it should be remembered that in WWI, Britain would have been more likely to be enemies with France or Russia than Germany.
Only up until period of 1904-07, when Britain made alliances with both France and Russia and settled all differences between them. While Anglo-German naval race hotted up and turned German into Britain’s most likely enemy in a future war, given the empire new alliances.
@@wedgeantillies66 I should have said before then
Just look at Sisko's speech when they evacuated DS9: they sacrificed the station in order to strike at several enemy shipyards. It's all about controlling the narrative.
_"The speaker or writer who, seeking to influence public opinion, descends from calm argument to unfair blows hurts himself more than his opponent." FDR_
Propaganda is indeed a vital tool in warfare, for when all is said and done, victory in war depends just as much on the moral of its people both in and out of uniform as the battles themselves. Also, an intriguing compare & contrast between the different powers.
Only video on TH-cam that I do not fast forward through. Nice work as always.
When you say "people can only think of a handful of things at a time" at 4:32, I couldn't agree more. Certainly one side might try to place an emphasis on a victory they had on one front, as opposed to a defeat suffered at the same time on another front. For obvious reasons, most viewers' perception of the Dominion War is based primarily on what they saw on Deep Space Nine... but even though those characters were undoubtedly key to how that all unfolded, there was a massive amount of warfare going on across a huge swath of space, and what we saw onscreen was merely a small fraction of it.
To draw once again on the World War II parallels... there were so many different theaters and individual battlefronts going on simultaneously for a number of years, that no one person could have kept up with all of the developments on a daily basis. But the newsreels that made it back for widespread consumption among allied nation civilians in America or British commonwealth countries were generally tailored to emphasize what was preferable to those governments, even though the media was nominally independent. But while that war seems massive to us today, it only encompassed one single planet. Expand that out to an interstellar scale, and it magnifies exponentially, with hundreds of military actions occurring in dozens of star systems on a daily basis. When the fog of war billows out that far, that creates a lot of room for obfuscation by parties interested in obfuscating!
Lastly, on a completely separate note, I appreciated the imagery you used at 17:43 when you discussed the Federation using freelance journalists. In my head, I always imagined that post Deep Space Nine, Jake eventually became a widely renowned journalist, who made his name by spending several months behind enemy lines during the Dominion War. 🙂
William Randolph Hurst to his photographers during the Spanish Civil War: "You provide the pictures, I'll provide the war."
Wars, even in the 24th century, are won and lost in the newsroom as much, if not war, as they are on the battlefield. I believe that one of the most dangerous weapons to any soldier in a war is demoralization, beating him mentally to the point that he believes he can't win, no matter what. Consider the Klingons, who are motivated by song and legend. If every legend is sad and brutal, would they be so brave? Or the structure of the Romulan Star Empire, if the people were allowed to actually think.
I love this, thank you so much Venom Senpai
1:30 The Dominion doesn't need soldiers, they manufacture them.
That is one of the selling points, the Jem'Hadir means you will never have to fight a war as they will "protect" you or at the very least kill those that attacked you.
8:30 is a better one.
However the Jem'Hadir reliance on White, means their is a bottleneck weakness in their infrastructure. Target and destroy a major White production facility, you slow down their advancement considerably. With the stopping of traffic threw the Wormhole, and allying with the smaller powers, White production and availability seems to be an ongoing issue.
I think it would depend on the culture and the situation. It would work for a minor power or trade union experiencing pirate troubles. Join and we'll protect you, sounds good. To an established power or a warrior culture it would have the opposite effect, we don't need protecting.
Not sure if you would have seen this before but back in the 2000's there was a pretty unique starship fan design called the *Insignia Class*. It's a pretty flat design with some post-Sovereign ideas to it. It's been my favorite Star Trek ship for years now. I would love to see you include it in your universe. I think it would fit as a Light Battleship with good agility. It's almost as long as a Sovereign Class but with Pulse Phaser Cannons scattered around the hull, in addition to some standard Phaser Arrays. I would think that the Insignia Class would differ from the Sovereign as a front-line brawler happy in CQB, whereas the Sovereign is a mid-range generalist.
The ship also does have Ablative Armor which, when combined with Pulse Phaser Cannons, suggests to me a ship meant to rush an enemy, get close and break up formations while still having 360 degree capital ship firepower, able to take on multiple smaller targets simultaneously with the aim of scattering formations leaving those smaller ships more isolated and able to be picked off by other allied ships in your fleet.
I really, really, hope you'll be willing to cover this ship design.
I never expected to enjoy this subject so much. Your an excellent bard :D
Your analysis is most interesting, like always.
Brings me to a different, yet connected point. Up until Picard S3, the UFP has seen the Dominion War, a major corruption scandal (Insurrection), the Scimitar (Nemesis), the obliteration of Mars (PIC S1), an attack from an unknown source (PIC S2), and a Borg resurgence, which was almost successful and has been planned for years.
And all that happened in about 30 YEARS!
How would UFP Media deal with that? Surely there are species more prone to populismus as well, like us humans. It is about the survival of the democratic spirit at some point.
Personally, it saddens me that Star Trek hasn't gone into these grand social processes lately. Since this show has always been about progress, and since we live through a time of crisis ourserlves here, we could use such a lighthouse.
Yeah it would be nice to see a true post dominion war show to deal with the consequences. Even lower decks falls short there.
@@venomgeekmedia9886I have to wonder if setting Nemesis/Lower Decks, etc at ~2380 was deliberate to put some years since the war and can kinda smooth over such things.
I mean, look how fast things were "smoothed over" regarding the border war with the Cardassians. O'Brien and the captain of the USS Phoenix were in many respects the only on screen 'consequences' visible of it. Though there were the Maquis, so that's a bit longer lasting on screen fallout. Didn't that border war run 10-20+ years?
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Hm. I can't help but feel Picard could have been that show, tieing in with the war's consequences so well.
On a randomly different note btw - will you open a Discord in the future by any chance? That would be neat!
Jake Sisko was himself kind of brought up in Dominion investigations alleging that he was an enemy propagandist in the course of the show.
Splendid! Now do a Special "Wolf 359 was an inside Job" Alex Jones Style and get the Info Wars going 🙂
Makes me think how I always wondered how the press on Earth might have treated the Breen attack. That must have been a real big thing.
CNN: "Far-Right Wing Aliens crossed state lines with automatic Disruptors, yelling MAGA after the attack!"
@@joe9739 Thank you for the Dipshit point of view on this topic, but sadly you may not be too far off. (Nevermind, that's just complete dipshit stuff even for the corporate media.) Meanwhile, back in Star Trek...
Brilliant analysis! Thank you!
Propaganda is a fascinating subject, thanks for making this venom!
Love how u break things down. Keep up the great work.
Dominion ( We are retaliating against aggressors ).
Fedaration ( What about our Ships you just blow up for no reason when were not even aware of you ).
Dominion (....Oh look at the time ).
Runs off.
Many thanks! This is exceptional.
What I noticed about propaganda is how important the target audience or better its culture ist.
There is a notable piece of early WWII German propaganda painting the Polish as incredibly stupid by claiming that the used cavalry charges at German tanks.
In an online discussion an American used it as an example of propaganda that backfired because "it makes the Polish look totally badass". The other Americans in the thread agreed with him. The thing is modern Americans are not the target audience, 1940s Germans were.
That story was actually so effective ist is still pervasive to this day. I grew up thinking that the WWII Polish army were idiots because of it (before I learned it didn't actually happen) and I have never heard a German interpret that propaganda piece any different. What is highly effective targeted at one culture achieves the opposite effect at another.
The thing is German culture is highly pragmatic. A cavalry charge against tanks is pointless and has not even a chance of working. Therefore it is stupid. If it does not give you any advantage or even a chance when there are no other options, there is no reason for doing it.
US culture (how I see it at least) is highly romantic. A desperate last charge by the underdogs (no matter how pointless) is something that resonates with the American soul.
What for one culture is an act of true bravery is a stupid waste of time and lives for the other.
My favourite example of scifi propaganda is in Mass Effect 3 expanded galaxy mod.
There, you have a quest about negotiating with Bekenstein industrialists about them supporting the war. They agree to provide their resources on condition that Shepard promises them defence in case of a Reaper attack. You obviously can't promise that sincerely, as Reapers are virtually unstoppable, but if you do so regardless, Councilor Udina praises you, as Bekenstein is located so close to the Citadel that such an invasion would be a game over anyways. He suggests flying a big, flashy cruiser over the planet's cities to further reinforce that the military will look after them.
It would be interesting to know how the Cardassians were portrayed by the media immediately after the war. Pitied? Dismissed? Ignored? Probably different by each race.
A shame DS9’s first six S6 episodes didn’t do a Dominionised version of the intro sequence with the Federation ships replaced with Cardassian and Dominion ships.
I understand why they didn’t do it but holy shit that would be amazing! Maybe even a Defiant or Constitution Class being blown up by a Dominion Battle Cruiser, in the background.
Happy New Year
You know the Dominion may have played nice with Bajor and some of the fringe Federation worlds they occupied but look what happened to a core world like Betazed. When the whole story of what the Dominion did to thousands of civilains they experimented on and killed became known it confirmed them as pure evil!
They'd probably say that all that was the cardassians getting carried away.
Was that the historical quote or a rephrased version of Anastasius Focht?
Oh, yeah: *Wargames* would *absolutely* be the BIGGEST hit in Klingon markets imaginable!
Plus, Gen. Martok would no doubt *use* those programs as a type of rapid training regiemine for his men, particularly if they say perform less-than-expected in an operation- if he's in any way a *competent* battlefield commander about upgrading his forces in their grasp of procedures!
great video! the fact that propaganda is not discussed enough in general society , at least here in the u.s., tells how effective propaganda works. it's like, without trying to start a political conversation, the propaganda surround the isreal conflict is based largely on emotional and to some extent religious context. however looking at the situation from a strategic economic standpoint our official diplomatic outlook of it does not make sense considering no economic or logistical losses would occur if we didn't intervene and let things play out for itself. maybe some prestige but tht is what it is. compared to ukraine, where a good portion of the world's grains come from. or like the red sea, where all that logistical traffic is now in danger, affecting the world supply chain. the propaganda of helping isreal as much as ukraine and dealing with the red sea on the side would take Federation style efforts to appease the populace. which i don't think exists. again, great video
And therin we have two nations..one which has invested a lot into winning international support and another which seems not to be. Just compare how much the UAF releases compared to the Stonewall style of the IDF.
request: do A video on the orion destroyer.
Do you have links or clean versions of the art posted anywhere? Propaganda though it may be, it's pretty cool.
its all been posted for centurion tier members
propaganda is when an english bloke takes a real good look at something . hahah sorry had to make the joke . loved the video , hope more star trek dominion war stuff is coming down the pipeline
Plus, for Klingons who're on shore leave: war is kind of a way of life for them: so they'd have ways to cool down those functions in their minds; and I really do believe that PTSD is a rare condition for Klingon soldiers- it would be an odd health problem indeed at that.
Sometimes the image of a strong authoritarian state that Cardassia likes to portray itself as will backfire; especially when you actually analyze what leadership *is*: it is the trade of working *through* others; so you're really measured by the skills of your men and how well *they* perform is how well *you've* performed in their formation and equipping... and sometimes; the purpose of the finest forces imaginable is to NOT have to fight with them committed to the battlefield, but as a checkmate to any enemy that'd come after your people while your *factories* are really the mechanism of your fortresses; as in a type of self-regenerating defense grid that's really a huge mess to try to get through.
Stsr fleet had a nightmare with manpower problems during the war and wiyh casualties. Over 500 thousand starfleet dead . All needed to be replaced and the fleet had an expanded role post war peacekeeping and cardassian reconstruction. . Federation had more casualties than the klingons. Not to mention civilian casualties well over 200 million Federation dead . Judt on earth and betazed
I thought FNN's coverage or the Bajoran Lives Matter 'mostly peaceful protests' on Terok Nor was deplorable..
Gul Dukat 2024
Sticking to the shipping lanes is an incredibly and unforgivably *dumb* idea if you've got something like the Hutet roaming the shipping lanes hunting your trade vessels- if your foes know your shipping lanes: you immediately throw out that whole program without replacing it at all!
If you're in the merchant marine; your best odds of evading any enemy forces and carrying out your tasks is like that of a raider: you do have anything to do with going where your foes would expect you to go: you be as random as possible, and go way further still!
Cheers merry Christmas
For Cardassia?
What is the legal age for Klingon combat personnel?
Dunno what the klingon age of majority is but they dont seem to be a culture thats too opposed to child soldiers. If you can hold a batleth youre a warrior ig
i would love an insight as to how much the great powers tell their people about borg incursions, like was picards assumalation and envoment in wolf 353 hussed up hence why he was never tried in the couht of puplic opinion
Regarding the apparent lack of public support for the war among the Romulans: that's probably part of the reasons for Suran to go for a type of "Marius's Reforms" regarding recruiting the Remans; and while the senate was concerned about giving their slave-class combat skills: the Remans proved *very* eager: they managed to fully prepare in excess of 2 *billion* battalions in less than half-a-month for the front-lines: these guys LIKED the idea, and they proved very proficient.
Oddly enough, the Remans proved very popular among not only the military but also the industrial laborers: the reason why is that they tended to have *exactly* the personality types needed for such careers- they tended to value not vanities but workplace skills; and I haven't any possible doubt that these guys would *absolutely* use holograms as both workers and combat soldiers, as well as security forces of all kinds.
Regarding garrison and security services: you don't have to actually *be* what you're thought of as being; all that matters is that your conquered subjects *think* you are as strong as you appear to be for you to do your job... it really is a suppression task.
By the way, I'd *absolutely* use fighters in terms of army operations primarily if I can in that kind of geopolitics in terms of ground combat! The airforce is the best weapon *possible* for that in general, unless you can recruit titanic guardians regarding strength and rapid recruitment- plus as basically those guys're stone age societies: they naturally translate over into ideal stormtrooper mentality of infiltration warfare at that, combined with light infantry tactics akin to mountain or forest warfare!
Plus, seeing as these savages of conquered worlds are, in that case, basically stone-age societies: you offer them good quality weapons and the training in how to use them: and that's basically all it takes to recruit these guys!
Oh, yeah; regarding Klingon recruitment policies: those'd be primarily war-films and the like; HUGE branch of their society- as well as things like college speeches by types like war-heroes on how such operations are done best: I truly think a *major* branch of their forces would be "deep strike commandoes" as a department; as those guys would have to rely on clever footing and thinking on one's feet: truly manly Klingon values for how to defend a position.
Bizarrely, that quality of taking and holding a position is also present heavily in societies that revere philosophy: the "graduation" from a course in philosophy, especially one on ethics, is that you have to be able to take and hold a position. It is competent footwork and development of a stance; it is a *skill-gaining course* primarily, much like a basic-training program, not unlike the Bamarran military institute in Cardassian society that "Commissar" Garak spoke of in his "diary" if you please: a stitch in time!
13:20 i dont think federation Propaganda would Show chang but gorkon. Chang is a good Commander but also almost Made the klingons Go to war with the federation through schemes
In the Star Trek Novel "Vulcan's Heart" there're some very interesting geopolitical views of internal Romulan society- now put yourself in Shiarkiek's shoes on the *throne* of said society: his best defense against insurrection is to find out about issues that could cause it and by say a public address counteract it- even to surrender himself to the judgement of his own citizens if need be; oddly enough, in their kind of colonial history mentality: that kind of a statesman's approach of appeal to his tenants is a career presevation skill- as cowardice and clinging to power really is a type of career-suicide if not also *actual* suicide here and there... it also shows a masculine security about things that says "I had no freedom to do that; I therefore yield on that issue, and fully accept the loss of *command* authority to the degree merited by the bad judgements I have either made or pushed through." kind of stance- plus any head-of-state really has to work *via* the training programs of his workers, be they civilian or military.... his own cousin, the lady in "the Enterprise Incident" actually seemed to be a bit of a "whistleblower" about things developing that'd throw the whole region into an interstellar war.
It wasn't even that that did it to Dralath's government: no, he lost his job because of him ordering the political murder of a *toddler*; when that got out, as it was sure to, by a member of what'd be their same deal as the "Catechomes movement" in the days of Imperial Rome who was also another cousin of their hereditary ruler- lets just say that the entire populous of Ki Baratan rose up in a *riot* at the idea of that kind of running amok! They did NOT like Dralath's ideas of how to operate.
Now in Cardassian society, they apparently do have some echoes of their spiritual past, with their idea that the head of state does NOT shed blood himself, regardless of need, come what may- doing that will ruin his career administration for life! NOT exactly atheists, if you get my meaning; no: those guys that hold to that really do NOT have morals left, especially for long!
Yeah, about the Ferengi making inroads into Klingon society; maybe Quark had something to do with that... what with his brief time as a Klingon aristocrat in "House of Quark"... now he *would* be cunning enough to make contracts like that- and the contract *is* one of his society's elements... it also does stand to reason that his situation is NOTHING unusual at all about these kinds of societies, about intermarriage and the like.
And plus, no Ferengi man would *ever* turn down a business offer he knows he can do and do well- that's a kind of corporate suicide; and to them: "spiritual" suicide as well, second only to taking a deal from their devil-character: "The Smiling Partner" as they refer to him/it.
5:08 yeet face😊
One *major* detail that confirms that the Federation is NOT in any way socialist is that you never ever get a free-press where you have socialism, but the Cardassian Union *absolutely* was socialistic in all of the branches of its society.
I always liked the propaganda stuff from the Soviet era. Obviously I'm not a communist nor even a Russophile. I just like the art style and aesthetic.
There were no WMDs in Cardassia...
The art of spin
I imagine volunteering for the military probably would be favoured and likely to be trained as an officer rather than enlisted.
Yes, the elements of Jake Sisko and his business dealings with Weyoun; including where Weyoun pretty much warns off his state's guards from impeding his movements; that'd kind of actually be part of that Vorta's job duties as a state officer at that- plus he'd be trying to turn the guy into a propagandist for his own state's stances- of course; it is the sole thing that makes any real sense at all!
Plus, seeing as Odo has had some signficant experience with these guys, directly or indirectly, his people would be really kind of dumb to NOT have him directing their operations in the region- that's one reason why states use planted officers in eachother at the earliest opportunity, and take the greatest care to subvert them, and to convert their propagandists in the meantime! It only makes sense that they'd do that.
In general: if operating, *expect* sanity among self-aware minds: if you don't have that showing through: be distrurbed, but be happy; as it is way easier to outthink an animal than a man; and if you're say in the shoes of Weyoun when you meet your new, literally, fallen-angel "colleague" "Kosst Amojan", you should be *really* freaked out; as you're definitely dealing with a very powerful and incredibly *sadistic* mind!
A war is half won by convincing the people of your enemy that youre the lesser evil. Thats why every proper conqueror declares himself to be a liberator.
Plus bringing down a *bear* with nothing but a hunting knife as he's said to have done, a bear that is able to easily decaptate him; that's a recipe for *clout* in that kind of a hunter-society!
Klingon poets and singers and playwrites do that regularly; about rewriting defeats or losses as a tale of courage and proper dignity... that's one of their careers: to keep the will to defend oneself and one's house alive.
*Those* guys're their propagandists: their opera writers and performers!
Gen. Chang was involved in the *murder* of his boss; NOT the type of guy you'd consider a hero by any reasonable standards- at least Kor operated with some regulations of operations in his occupation and conquest of Organia- however brutal he may've been; and he'd consider ironically that as a job attibute: someone who his state could point to and say that that's the basic mentality of most of our officers, do you feel lucky today? kind of stance.
Even that aside, no barbarian commander was stupid; they had to be cunning and clever to be able to accomplish their goals; as they were *universally* short on odds of survival; what with lacking medical care and the like; and always being short on the best military equipment- oddly enough, most of those guys sold their services to regular states as mercenary units to get things like meat, cheese, drink, clothes and bread- plus it was a regular supply base: to career military men: that's worth a LOT! Reliable supplies are a *major* recruitment binge for men who're basically raised as career soldiers, be they local savages who've simply been recruited by the odds of getting better gear or nomads: that's a trait that's *unbelievably* tempting to them- especially if they know that as long as they can keep on your good side; they get regular resupplies: HUGE attractant to that kind of man!
Why is propaganda important ? How else are the bad guys going to convince the public they are the good guys ? E.G. Sisko not only gassed an inhabited planet but also mined international space ... BOTH would be war crimes but oddly enough Starfleet supported both actions . Still a war crime but they decided to overlook them (?) Yeah the Dominion was about some dodgy stuff but at least it was LEGAL .
Not even getting into Sisko attacking allies during an engagement to save "enemy" leadership .....
You watch Lore Reloaded, don't you?
@@birdmonster4586 I recognize the name . I watch most of the Star Trek related channels here . Why , someone out there actually agree with me about Sisko ?
Lets say I were to have wound up some high-office-holder in such a state; or their overlord state: the problem is that suppressing the story is, in and of itself, *really* problematic, at *best*: the reason why is that if you shut up criticism: you're really engaged in basic treason, especially as your state really *is* the people, the government is merely an extension of your people, to the point that government is technically nothing but a forum for discussing issues, both foreign and domestic.
That said; you do want to acknowledge that these failures are out there; as that's the *first* thing people would need to know to be able to protect themselves, and that's your *first* duty as defense minister so to speak: to train the people to defend themselves and their settlements- if only so that when your troops arrive someone's left *alive* in the settlement at worst-comes-to-worst kind of deal; and any strategist in HQ who does NOT consider that is being really unreilable to his own employers; and when you calcluate what *government* work is: you really acutally have a lopsided command structure: you have the most bosses *imaginable* in any business or labor situation anywhere!
That said, really you're nothing but a paper-pusher if you're the head of the executive branch of your country's government; and one clue of just how strong such a state *is* is how popular that system of administration has become on this planet in the past two or so centuries in real time!
Guys in any type of work will want the most productive means of doing their jobs; and in a state with the press not even remotely controlled by the government; if you really *are* the head of said government; you can pretty easily feasibly count on good quality feedback- a vital skill to any national leader of any kind of state imaginable!
You can be there at Septimus 3 committing crimes
Look at the pro Ukrainian anti-russian propaganda that this channel has engaged in
Voting for that "Orcs Won't Pillage MY Town" party I see.