@@lynngreen7978yeah, idk where Venom got the idea that ensigns are all just automatically promoted after 2 years but that's never been true, there have always been older people who were still ensigns long after leavin th academy
One thing about this: Almost all this discussion revolves around the Command/Tactical promotion track. Science/Medical and Engineering/Ops have different needs, criteria, and promotion tracks. A real-world example is how medical officers in navies may be captains, and even admirals, but they are not commanding ships. They are in charge of base hospitals, large organizations, etc.
I knew the man who was the chief engineer on the USS Nautilus for its polar expedition. Later, during the Cuban Missile Crisis, he was at the Pentagon. He retired a Rear Admiral. I don't know if he ever commanded his own vessel, though. RIP, Paul.
Scotty was never Captain of the Enterprise. Scotty was Chief Engineer but held the rank of Captain. Scotty was supposed to be Captain of Engineering aboard the Excelsior, i.e. not the ship's captain. It's similar to the old position of Captain of Aviation during WWII, later changed to Commander, Air Group or CAG. It seems Kirk was supposed to take command of the Excelsior as an admiral because the Excelsior was to be the new flagship of the Federation. That and the transwarp drive being the reason why a Captain of Engineering was required instead of a regular Chief Engineer. However, the Excelsior only led to a new warp scale and not a transwarp drive along with the events of Star Trek III--IV, so those plans fell through.
@@ganykaliya7811 the same held true for Spock, except that Spock was a science officer (and in the Kelvin Timeline, an Academic Officer as well), and, unlike Officers of the Line like Kirk, Sulu, Chekov, etc., was not required to take the Kobayashi Maru (as cited by Spock as he laid dying from acute radioactive poisoning in ST2:TWOK). In TWOK, he was promoted to Captain (making him a Restricted Line Officer) and was the Commanding Officer of the USS Enterprise, which by then was a training vessel for Academy cadets. Kirk, who was a Rear Admiral during the TWOK training run, took over from Spock as CO when the USS Enterprise was called upon to active service as a war vessel; Spock citing the Starfleet regulations to Kirk (who outranked Spock) in his quarters. Thus while Spock was still a Captain, he became the ship's Executive Officer (XO) upon Kirk taking command as CO.
A "Restricted Line Officer" in the US Navy is primarily associated with limited command opportunities.l, specifically command at sea. Spock is the Captain of Enterprise, by definition he is an officer "of the Line." Ie. not a staff officer. Staff officers are Medical Officers, JAG, chaplains, EDO(Engineering Duty Only), Supply Corps... but this video seems not to be referring to line or staff in this way.
US military, except for battlefield commissions, requires a 4 year college degree to become an officer. Fewer than 20% are ring knockers (academy graduates). Most officers are college graduates who enlisted and went to Officer Candidate School (OCS). There are also prior enlisted who used their GI Bill to go to college while serving and then attended OCS. They are called "mustang" Officers. Battlefield commissions will generally only be seen during war time. Then there are enlisted who don't attend OCS, but are Officer material, and they can go to Warrant Officer School.
Many Warrant Officers are prior enlisted duty experts, but most Warrant Officers are Helicopter Pilots in the Army. Helicopter pilots in the Navy are commissioned, Air Force and Navy fixed wing pilots(non-helicopter) are all commisioned.
@leokim2998 I was pretty sure Army only did warrant officers. Regardless not all warrants are helicopter pilots, but you are likely right that most are.
@@JessRenee91481 in the Army, the vast majority of the Warrant Officers are the Helicopter Pilots. There are commissioned Helicopter pilots, of course, those are the Platoon, Company and Battalion commanders. Those guys are, of course commisioned, and have more duties than flying helicopters, which is of course more fun and far more enjoyable than the administrative duties associated with being a company or Battalion commanders. The duty experts like the Chief Warrant Officer 5s... are kind of like unicorns and are seen only when they want to be seen.
@@JessRenee91481US Army uses Warrant Officers as technical experts, as this practice dates back to the frontier era where clerks and civilian craftsmen at a post or fort would receive a warrant for their services. They would take orders from officers, but as an officer in their own right they would be left alone by the general population of enlisted men and may lead a specialized work team. Other branches view warrant officers as extremely niche outside of the Coast Guard where they may lead stations, patrol boats, or serve as investigators.
That was indeed a fascinating watch on late 23rd century ranking in Starfleet. A part 2, expanding onto the Admiralty and/or the ranking structure in the ENT &/or DS9 eras would be interesting. Also, that opening was indeed... something.
Many nations rigidly bureacratize their military promotion structure. In the US, exceptional officers may get Below Zone promotions after O-3, but that may mean only a one or two year lead over the others. The exception to this is the General Officer or Flag Ranks. Once someone pins a star on, they are not really subject to a rigid schedule, but promoted based on what position they hold. It took David Patreus 21 years to make full Colonel O-6. It only took him seven years to go from Brigadier General to Full General. However, in the past, like during WWII and WWI, due to losses and shaking out incompetent officers, rapid promotions could happen regularly in many armies including the US, UK and German. The famous Panzer Graf, Hyazinth Graf Strachwitz, went from Reserve Captain (O-3) in 1939, to Generaleutnant (O-8) in 1944. James Gavin of the US Army, went from Captain to Major General in 4.5 years. But, stuff like that hasn't occurred in NATO militaries since WWII.
Geordi moved the fastest.He was LT JG (Ensign and a half) just like Worf in season 1. In season 2, he became chief engineer and was promoted to LT. Then next season, he was promoted to LT CMDR. Sadly, Mr Worf would not make LT CMDR until the movie generations.(Cue the piano and violins)
@@jessecarozza8134 Well Data had no ambition before the emotion chip, so all he knew was he wanted to be a good starfleet officer.If you don't show interest in command, you won't be approached for promotion beyond LT CMDR.
@@_BLACKSTAR_ I think data does have some ambition but we dont see it until later. Data definately shows some ambition with his pretty much barging in and going I want the Sutherland. Now he does it ina very polite Data llike way but he definately wants it and feels like he can do a good job. He also clearly does want the First Officer and Captain billet in gambit although he doesnt want to get there that way. After the emotion chip I agree he is looking to progress more as he was going to get the Enterprise E jobs before the events of lets not talk about that movie. Worf's career track is definately weird, he also despite only being a Lt Cmdr might be one of the most influential men in the whole quadrant by the end of DS9 given who his friends are on both sides.
@@hmsverdun I agree somewhat about when Data went to Picard and said "You need ship commanders, WTF?" Having Data do that BEFORE the emotion chip made no sense to me. Just like the Vulcan leader guy Vlos in the Enterprise series getting all pissed off when Archer and Tpau walked in with the Kirshara. They NEVER did that in any series before that unless it was explained by some reason, Vulcans NEVER showed emotion. Data is kind of like a eunich he just doesn't have the desire beyond wanting to do his duty. Also like that episode where Data was kidnapped by the trader guy and told him he had no redeeming qualities and should be destroyed, then pointed and fired a disruptor at him just as he was being transported, and then he LIED to OBrian who said the disruptor was in a state of discharge during transport. "Something must have happened during transport" It's just so incongruous with his character not having emotions that he would be able to lie. Star Trek has had alot of inconsistency in their writing over the decades.I'm sure if Roddenberry were here alot of this would not be happening.
@@hmsverdun Worf I think was held back in promotion after the Duras incident when Picard told him he was being written up for killing him. He didn't pull another stunt like that until Jadzia was in trouble behind enemy lines and he defied orders to go save her. He was already LT CMDR at this point, so it doesn't affect his career trajectory as much, in fact, showing that kind of independent initiative may just get noticed by some admiral who likes that kind of spunk, leading to a promotion.
I always wanted this video! Just waiting on the cartography of the gamma, beta and delta quadrant! This ties in beautifully with my request months ago about not needing the rank of Captain to command a ship.😀😎👍
Scotty was promoted to digital data for about 75 years after an incident with a dyson sphere. However, as an engineer it must have been his dream to skip time and witness the technological progress. RIP Scotty, best man. 😇
At the beginning of ST:VI, Uhura said she had an Academy lecture to give. This and maybe a few other lines here and there could suggest that in the 23rd century no ship was a “mobile star base” like the Galaxy class and Kirk’s crew in the movies had more than one regular duty to perform. By the time of TWOK, they were part-time on the Enterprise, part-time other assignments because they were older and more experienced. Second, the five year mission was the exception not the rule, most officers were out for 2-3 years or less and then had time back home to rest and perform other duties. Likewise, in the Kelvin timeline Spock was an Academy instructor and first officer of Pike’s new Enterprise at the same time.
Poor Barclay. On the one hand, he was clearly a brilliant engineer, especially while directly supporting the efforts of a team. Eventually landing a nice job at Starfleet Academy can attest to that. On the other hand, it's very clear that military life was not his best option for several reasons. I'm still shocked that he didn't at least receive some sort of demerit for that infamous holodeck program, considering that both the ship XO and his immediate superior officer had a full view of it. And he earned promotions very slowly.
Maybe Holodeck addiction is a common enough occurrence, that it's considered like any other nonviolent mental condition? The command staff does include a counselor after all. So maybe they just know how to deal with it and help move people on. If anything I think they handled it quite well all things considered.
Actually if one considers it, there a lot of administrative solutions to violent outbursts from the crew too. Engineering lockouts, phaser lockup, replicator lockouts for dangerous things. Which would make sense for tight quarter crew interactions, in isolated space.
This is generally pretty clear. Seeing the lower ranked officers staying there is typically going to be highly specialized such as doctor or scientist ect. They have a rank to command their job but are unlikely to be promoted since they are the top of there work path.
Not only did the Kirk era Enterprise have an over-abundance of high ranking officers on one ship, but also within the same duty shift ( a ship is on a 24 hour clock, yet anything important seems to take place only when all department chiefs are all on duty simultaneously 🤔
This was a very well put together and insightful video. One thing to consider is the difference between a regular line office and a restricted officer. Take for example an officer who is a doctor or lawyer etc. Rank progress for them could require different qualities that say someone running the ship. Also you could have some one who has a real talent for say warp theory or ship design or just logistics. They might not be great at running a ship and would never break past LT junior grave you mentioned but would be a real prize for starship design bureau or even the logistic core. They will likely never command even a small ship but would it be realistic to expect them to stay sub lieutenants for the rest of their careers? Likewise do you need to waste a top notch ship captain like say Kirk to hold a senior position in say Starfleet security which would have a much narrower focus. But again they need rank when interacting with “regular officers “. Otherwise would a traditional say commander or captain take seriously a very skilled security officer who’s only a Lt jnr?
The Enterprise-A had three captains during its entire life. All at the same time. (Per the novels and original scripts, 4 in ST5). Kirk, Spock, and Scotty (and Sulu). With McCcoy, Uhura, and Chekov all full Commanders. Academy Graduates might achieve a lieutenant grade. Saavik demonstrates this, though I would argue Kirk and Sulu also did so. TNG era, top of the class graduated as an Ensign, with no promotion for seven years - barring a war. I just noticed "Lieutenant" Valeris was a lieutenant commander. Also in the TOS era there is "Fleet Captain" an intermediate position between a Captain and Commodore. I would argue that in First Contact, and the Dominion War, Picard was a Fleet Captain - senior captain in any group situation, with authority to assume command of forces.
Valeris was a costume error, both rank and color of division, according to Nick Meyer. He laments in the commentary for the film that no one noticed her colors and rank were off.
15:50 Okay. We are talking about a group whose practice is to send the entire command echelon of a starship down to the surface of an unexplored planet to make first contact with a possibly hostile race with only a couple of redshirts to use as human shields. So having a ship stuffed full of flag officers without any thought of the loss of experienced leaders should the ship be destroyed is probably common practice in Starfleet.
I always assumed on the original Enterprise when we had Scotty Spock Kirk McCoy they had been off of the ship and for this particular Mission or a special Mission were reassigned to the Enterprise at the behest of its Captain meeting Captain Kirk who by this time would be a senior captain and through his exploits had great pull within Starfleet
I always thought it unrealistic that almost every original TOS officer ends up a captain. I get that people want their favorite characters to advance, but not every character would want command or be suited for it.
All of the original bridge officers and Scotty were already command officers. That means that if the circumstances required it, they were already proven and authorized to take command of the ship. TOS Enterprise chain of command was Kirk, Spock, Scot, Uhura, Sulu. While McCoy out ranked Uhura and Sulu, he was not considered to be a command officer and not authorized to take command of the ship. While he was in charge of the ship's medical department, he had no authority to give orders to anyone other than medical department personnel outside of medical and health concerns. In TNG, Crusher was not a command officer until she passed a test where she had to prove she was willing to order someone to do something that would result in their death in order to save the ship.
@@sabrewolf4129 the implication of the story in that episode, given that Crusher had the rank of Commander, and was known to take some night shift command watches, is she had passed the same test prior to the show starting.
@@sabrewolf4129 What I have read with regard to American military promotion schema's is that the system is designed such that if you don't achieve promotion after a certain amount of time you are expected to retire, and if you don't take the hint they basically fire you. As such the number of people who go on to higher rank is pre-specified, but unfortunately politics and butt kissing play at least as much if not a greater role in promotion from O-4 on as does competency.
It's not just with Starfleet. Older Star Trek did a really good job at showing professionalism even in the other races. I think you need to show that and what newer Trek has always got wrong. You need a command tree in any type of armed forces. It makes the universe believable.
That was my biggest problem with '09. I could get over most everything else, but Kirk becoming captain at the end? I just never could get over that....just ask my friends. I've not shutup about it for nearly 15 years now lol.@@wpatrickw2012
In a way, the Enterprise-A was the start of Starfleet accepting the idea of some crews putting comradeship ahead of their own careers. Kirk's crew was clearly perfectly willing to forego any further progress if they got to stay together (though obviously Sulu eventually flew the nest). It seemed in _VI_ all were preparing for retirement _at the same time_ , rather than being reassigned to other posts. If anything, the second (third) Enterprise was treated by Starfleet more like an early retirement home for Kirk and co: "Those seven old farts refuse to leave eachother? Fine, stick them on an antique ship and leave them to it."
I'd say by the 24th century the automatic promotion aspect was done away with. Based on what we see a more purely meritorious approach is adopted and the "Up or Out" stigma was largely done away with. We see a number of times where an Enlisted man like O'brien is given jobs and positions in charge of officers because of his skill and experience, which is valued over rank. No more free rides up the chain because we're pressured to move people up. Much "you have to earn it and prove yourself" approach. It's also worth considering that different professions and specializations may simple be less inclined for promotion up the ranks. On the Subject of Riker/Shelby I wouldn't call Riker not taking a promotion "Blocking up the chain". That's just Shelby being sour that she isn't getting the position she feels is owed to her. Refusing a promotion was nothing, They would have just given the job to someone else just as deserving. There are plenty of other good officers around. Diving into Beta canon, the reason why Riker stay's on Enterprise AFTER Best of both worlds is to keep an eye on Picard who was thought by some to be unfit for duty after his assimilation. But that's Beta canon, your mileage may vary there There are hundreds or thousands of other ships and candidates for any job that comes up. Starfleet doesn't revolve around Riker, or anyone else and if it did and Riker refusing a promotion really was such a big deal then the organization must either be tiny, extremely poorly designed, or corrupt. Shelby was arrogant and needed to learn that she isn't owed the Enterprise posting. If she was as good as she thinks she is, she could get a posting on any available ship she wanted and there were plenty around. Starfleet doesn't revolve around her and it doesn't owe her the Enterprise. If I were an admiral I would give Shelby another XO posting half because she's earned it and is good for it. The other half because she needs a humbling.
truth the tng is probably a bit closer to reality in some ways with limited billet's available for certain ranks and limited chances of promotion and just waiting for someone to retire or get promoted or die on the job in order to receive your next billet and promotion.
I always wondered why Star Trek rarely seemed to use Commander’s as ship captains. From what I know of both the Royal Navy and the US Navy a ship like Voyager would be commanded by a Commander. Even a tiny ship like USS Brattain had a fully captain with a crew of 35
So knowing all this wonderful new knowledge, along with your absolutely brilliant summary on the differences between a leader and a commander, and I hope you'll excuse my Quebecois: Who, THE FUCK, did Grand Ensign of the Fleet Harry Kim piss off that he was stuck with one pip for 7 years?! Lovely little video. The mineuta of Starfleet Professional Development is a great interest to nerds like me, and your usual talents shine brightly Venom-Senpai. Ps. That intro got me acting less than honourable ;)
Harry Kim was not showing enough initiative, which is why he was stuck at ensign, while Tom Paris got promoted to Lt Cmdr, busted back down and then re-earned his rank. Kim was too willing to follow Janeway like a puppy rather than showing more intiative and balls. The only time he really stepped out of line with Janeway was when he got infected with "love" for that hot scientist, and he was willing to leave the ship to be with her. He even said it to Janeway's face: "I've said yes ma'am to every one of your orders, but not this time.:
are there any enlisted ranks for starfleet? ive only ever seen officers. no privates, corporals, or sargents? in Enterprise, there were a few in MACO but thats not Starfleet.
The lack of enlisted personnel aboard Star Fleet vessels has been a chronic oversight dating back to TOS. I've heard various explanations, but what it comes down to is either a lack of knowledge or deliberate disregard by the writers & show runners. The only time we've ever seen any reasonable number of enlisted was on the Excelsior bridge during Undiscovered Country.
"Piss and vinegar" 😂 get a patent on that before the folks at Heinz get any ideas. Thanks Venom, enjoyed this installment more than I thought I would 👍
As a military veteran, the crew of the Enterprise wouldn't exist. Stagnation of promotions would be detrimental to crew moral and personal service ambition. I've seen the effects of promotions and demotions in the military. Most officers are very ambitious with dreams of command time before reaching field grade ranks.
A gunboat is a pissant ship. President John F Kennedy was a Lt.J.G. while commanding a PT Boat in WW2 and similarly on those vessels and Ensign is a First Officer. Destroyers are commanded by either Lieutenants or Lieutenant Commanders. Cruisers will get full Commanders. Only the larger vessels will actually get Captains. As only 8% of Naval Academy graduates ever reach the actual rank of Captain, this makes Captains very rare.
I think Kim, along with most of the crew in Voyager, didn't get promoted in order to maintain the chain of command. Usually, when people got promoted in Star Trek, the crew would get rotated off the ship to go off and do other things in their career, while new ensigns were able to get transferred in. The crew in Voyager were all isolated from the federation, and they probably thought it would take decades for them to get home. If everyone ranked up to commander, it might make it more difficult to maintain and manage that chain of command, "I'm the same rank as all of you, you can't order me around!" lol. Another more realistic explanation is that Hollywood general treats asian male actors like dog shit, holding them in very low regard. But thankfully, that seems to be changing nowadays.
There are actually 3 captains on the Enterprise for the last few movies. Scotty is promoted to Captain of Engineering in the third movie, and is wearing a Captain’s insignia during the briefing scene in the sixth movie. CO and XO as captain mirrors current USN policy for carriers. All the department heads on Enterprise are senior commanders.
Technically- Kirk's Enterprise during the latter end of the TOS movies - Scotty also held the rank of Captain. So Kirk, Spock, and Montgomery Scott all held the rank of captain. 😊
Yeah, you also had the non commissioned officers like Chief O'Brian, also a lot of extras were called "Crewmen", which I believe was also an enlisted rank equivalent to Seamen in modern time. In the TOS movie era they were seen wearing the uniforms with the tan(white?) shoulders. They just never really went over them in Star Trek.
OBrien wasn’t an NCO, he was a Warrant officer (a strange progression as he was an ensign in a flashback). But given his role on DS9, he was probably a lt. cmdr or cmdr equivalent.
@@logicplague ; I think lore wise, O'Brian is a Chief Petty Officer in TNG, and a Senior Chief Petty Officer in DS9. He probably gets promoted to Master Chief Petty Officer some time post-Dominion war.
@@logicplague I was under the impression he was a Chief Warrant Officer (although I know UK and US have highly divergent uses of the term “Warrant Officer”).
What's your opinion of star trek online's lore of making lieutenants acting Captains of frigates or small ships. Gameplay aside, if there is a lack of experienced personnel especially Captains, it might make sense to give command of smaller ships to Lieutenant ranked officers for them to gain appropriate experience.
I feel the 24th and early 25th century Federation officer system is not stagnant as such... it is simply something more informal, due to the unofficial rankings of ships serving rather different roles.. for a very senior officer on a capital vessel (aka Riker)... transfer to the captaincy position on a smaller ship, is effectively a demotion in terms of career prospects, whilst his/her career would be usually growth within their own ship... smaller, more near earth, vessels, do already have a hierarchy, but, that's different from galaxy traveling kingdoms of ships.... also, I feel the system is somewhat more like that of the USSR, where, the academy is somewhere you go after you have already completed a certain period serving in the fleet as a non-commissioned able-seaman, or the equivalent thereof. most of the crew of the enterprise, I believe, never went to Starfleet academy, you only needed it to move to the command trek or something equally major.
16:00 Reminds me of a story from WW2 (I think it was in North Africa prior to Montgomery taking command?) where lead tanks for various small units were knocked out in a battle, but rather than trudge back home with the rest of the surviving crews, the commanders just went to another tank and got back into the fighting (sending someone else to the back in the process). If I recall correctly, by the end of the battle there was at least one tank being commanded by a major with a sergeant, two lieutenants and a captain crewing the thing.
To be fair, on larger US navy ships like Nimitz or Ford class carriers, you will typically see more than one O-6 per ship. The Chief engineer, chief medical officer, the wing commander, the supply officer, chief of staff, the XO of the ship etc etc are all usually captains in rank as well. So for a crew of 3500 + 2000 aviation staff there might be up to 10 captains on board. Now I understand crews on Connies are not that large, but there is precedent for more than one captain serving on board a single ship. So a rank, especially in naval terms, tends to have more to do with how many personnel one holds responsibility for rather than what grade of ship is being commanded.
I would definitely be okay with a Miranda as a first command. But if I reach the rank of Commodore in Starfleet, I would stay that rank and refuse the rank of Admiral. And I would settle for a Promixa class Battleship and get the reject known as the Atlas out of mothballs.
Is it possible exceptional cadets graduate from the Academy and are immediately made a Lieutenant J.G, something like the top 1% of the graduating class each year? I always wondered if that's what happened with Savik.
I actually think Julian Bashir can give us an explanation for Saavik being a cadet Lieutenant J.G. Some specializations require graduate education after "college" so in a system based on the current US military system, someone can graduate the academy as an ensign and than proceed directly to a graduate program for law, medicine, engineering or science, and then graduate that program as some sort of lieutenant. Or perhaps Saavik was already a Ph.D. and going through OCS to join Starfleet.
This greatly reminds me of neural networks. Each individual has a pattern of interconnects to those above and below them within the hierarchy. The pattern is relatively the same throughout: taking orders from set few above and giving orders larger set below. In this way, the hierarchy structure is a fractal. Interestingly, promotion is what allows for this 'Starfleet' neural network to evolve. And I do mean evolve in the Darwinian sense. The evolutionary pressure for the individual is "doing well", which is defined differently as the whole evolves. "Doing well" for Starfleet itself is defined by the Federation as a whole. But, within the framework of game theory, etc, "doing well" for both the Federation and Starfleet is probably expansion. So "doing well" for an individual will be related to the interaction with the borders. Even if that interaction is in a support role. The correlation between such a structure and biology seems very strong. I wonder if there's a biological equivalent to promotion or if a neuron in the brain will always have the same position and responsibilities throughout its life. .... Fascinating. (Edit for clarity. And spelling. )
Roddenberry never really considered Starfleet a "military organization, " but we're all aware that it functions as the military for the United Federation of Planets. Venomgeek is extrapolating a fair bit where a precedent does exist. I'm guessing he's English where in the Royal Navy and Sublieutenant rank does indeed a exist(it doesn't in Starfleet but is does in Romulan rank structure), and I have heard of a Lieutenant exam in the Royal Navy, but it was for Midshipmen that had been promoted to Acting Lieutenant and was phased in the early 20th century around the same time the rank of Lieutenant Commander and Lieutenant junior grade comes into existence. The analog of the "Lieutenants exam" just doesn't really exist in the Modern Navy nor has it been referred to in canon sources associated with Star Trek. A Bridge Officers Exam has been seen in the 6th Season of TNG when Deanna is promoted to commander. The confusion over who would be in command on the bridge in the case of the 5th season episode "Disaster" wouldn't exist as there are differences between "line" and "staff" officer. And the distinction of an "operations officer" as not being a line officer is a little peculiar. The Ops officer on Navy ships and in Starfleet is the 3rd in Command of the ship after the Captain, Executive Officer(XO), and then Ops generally. The excess amount of Captains on the Enterprise does seem a bit peculiar. But I will point out on modern US carriers there are often as many as 5 or 6 and many times up to 7 or 8 Naval Officers with the Rank of Captain (O-6) at any given time. The Commanding Officer is a Captain, but now the XO is also a Captain (O-6). The Commander of thr Air Wing(CAG, which is "Commander, Air Group," a holdover from when the aircraft were called a "Group" as opposed to a "Wing." The Deputy Wing Commander (DCAG) is also a Captain. If the Strike Group Commander(geberallu a one-star Admiral) is embarked, his Chief of Staff is also a Captain. A number of officers in the Ship's company can also be a Captain, such as the Chaplain(although generally a Commander), the Ship's senior Medical Officer. The ChEng(Chief Engineer) possibly could have been frocked which raises the number of Captains to 7 or 8. By the end of the Iowa-class Battleships time in service, their XOs were all Captains, too and they had at least 4 or 5 Commanders(O-5s) aboard. I'm honestly a bit surprised that the Galaxy Class Enterprise didn't have more higher ranking officers aboard more often, except for of course confusion for those watching who would probably be as confused as any civilian aboard a modern Naval Ship. I don't think it was a matter of malicious corruption for Riker to be in the way of any promotions(except, of course aboard the Enterprise herself, Data or Worf or LaForge would all have been fine First Officers). The bureaucracy of Starfleet doesn't seem to force an "up or out" mentality. And considering how long lived many races are in Star Trek, it's probably a very good thing.
TNG reminds me of the later Honor Harrington books with the Solarian Navy introduced... with four-star admirals as staff officers to five-star admirals because, well, no one retires and they just accrue seniority promotions. And the top slots never refresh because, again, no one retires. And the Navy doesn't actually do anything so there's no, shall we say, operational attrition.
The assumption is basically US/UK Navy ranks: commodore, rear admiral, vice admiral, admiral, fleet admiral/admiral of the fleet, with possibly hypothetical higher ranks (ie we’ve never seen anyone higher than Fleet Admiral).
I know in the US, a lieutenant commander or major is where a lot of people retire after a long career. Mainly because the armed forces politely let you know that you aren’t getting the hire ranks. Basically only the best are promoted based on what they can offer in needs of the organization or retaining experience, special skills, etc. I’m sure others can speak to this better than me though.
Well, it's an interesting take from a UK perspective. At least I'd know how I'd far as a British Officer. Data went into it briefly with Lore. 3 yrs as an Ensign and 10 years in the Lt. ranks. I can't say I've heard the terms you're describing on any of the shows.
So you are saying a good place for Kirk would be as a Commodore. He still commands which is his strength but put in him charge of multiple ships. Commodore vs Fleet Captain?
There are also post-graduate schools such as Command School, Starfleet War College and Advanced Tactical training. These courses take around 18 months to 2 years and give their graduates a promotion of one rank but sometimes even two ranks such as with Ro Laren. Also, doctors, not nurses, graduate Starfleet Academy with the rank of Lt. Junior Grade not Ensign. There is also the issue of non-Commissioned ranks above Chief Petty Officer. We know they exist. For example, O'Brien was Senior Chief Petty Officer but only after he transferred to a space station. Janice Rand was a Master Chief Petty Officer during Star Trek IV at Starfleet HQ. We also have Specialist Kosinski and his equations. My theory is that once a Senior Enlisted person is above Chief Petty Officer Starfleet considers you too valuable to be aboard a starship. A Senior Chief Petty Officer is the highest for a Starbase. However, Master Chiefs are all basically confined to Starfleet HQ. Warrant Officers are, with some exceptions, at HQ or some important installation. The only way for Rand to get back aboard a starship was to be promoted to Officer rank. I know it doesn't logical sense that being promoted makes you less valuable, but that's apparently the way its and is based on attitudes in the US military where junior officers receive less respect than senior enlisted or warrant officers. Also, Venom Geek Media should at least try to tackle the rank of Fleet Captain.
I don't think Riker is blocking anything, we see that there are a number of commander ranked officers on the Enterprise D. Troi is a commander, and I thing La Forge becomes a commander. Dr. Crusher is even the rank of captain! It's just that they're never 2nd in command, because that's the only job Riker is occupying/blocking. Riker is not blocking advancement in promotion, just advancement in the chain of command aboard the Enterprise.
We need a reference guide to the confusing ranking in the movies. In Star Trek 2009, Kirk jumped ranks from cadet directly to captain. What is Left-tenant? 🤔 In TOS the rank of commodore seemed to be interchangeable with fleet captain. We noticed Stocker being pushed around by Kirk in Deadly Years. Picard seemed to be a fleet captain. We saw him taking command and assigning command to Rike, LaForge and Data. Vice Admiral and full Admiral are the top ranks they seemed to try and accomplished. The ranks in Star Trek follow the traditional ranking of the navy. It was based on Gene Roddenberry's service. Case closed. 🙂🙂
At 15:54 Technically, The Enterprise has three Captains: Kirk, Spock and Scotty as he was promoted to Captain in Star Trek III; granted he was made Captain of Engineering on the Excelsior, but he was never reduced in rank following the events of that film and what occurred in Star Trek IV, in fact he keeps that rank for the remainder of his Starfleet career on the Enterprise-A, the Launching of the Enterprise-B, and when he rematerializes into the Next Generation series.
I think you are being too hard on how "The Next Generation" portrayed this while being too soft on how TOS did. After all Kirk was said to be the youngest person to have attained the rank of "captain" by that time, and he couldn't have been more than a 13 or 14 year veteran when he did so, meanwhile Spock and Scotty had been in Starfleet longer and were only still Lieutenant Commander's.
16:00 Depending on the cannonicity of movie novelizations the Enterprise in "The Wrath of Kahn" set out with a rear admiral, three captains and two commanders (although one of those commanders was the CMO/ship's surgeon).
The commanding officer of the USS Grisom was a Captain?. This feels like your putting current naval standards against what you feel Starfleet would do.
While i understand why they don't t I would like to see a Star Trek game simulate your character's journey via promotion. You start as an ensign and the campaign takes several years until you reach Admiral.
It's my understanding that for most, to be promoted, you have to transfer to another assignment. That would probably explain why Harry Kim spent seven years as an Ensign since he had no where to transfer to.
I never understood how Riker not taking a promotion could hold up the whole promotion system. He would open ONE SPOT, that would be filled by ONE PERSON. further by not taking a captain chair, someone else got promoted which opened up their spot and so on....
Because being the XO of the flagship is crucial position of responsibility one that riker is overqualified for. He's depriving the service of a captain. And makes it harder for new talent to come up
@@venomgeekmedia9886 But what Im saying is that there are OTHER important starships, there are other Galaxy and Nebula and Excelsior XOs and one of them must have been given command of the Melbourne the same as (Unnamed) ship he had turned down command of before it. So when he turned down the command of (unnamed) they offered the chair to Cmd Smith of the USS (whatever) who accepted. Then the USS (whatever) needed an XO so a up and comer was promoted into that seat. If Riker had take command of the USS (unnamed) Cmd Smith of the USS (whatever) couldn't have. So the same number of slots XO slots open for a up and comer hot shot. Just because its not the flagship doesn't mean they can't get a XO chair. FURTHER MORE. If he HAD taken the command of either the USS (whatever) or the USS Melborne, it still only would have opened ONE CHAIR. Whoever took command of those ships would only result in ONE OTHER promotion no matter who took it. Starfleet isn't leaving all those other ships uncaptained and not promoting into other XO spots because Riker is still XO of the enterprise. They have Thousands of ships to crew.
Great video! However I will say definately depends not just on your ability but specialist track and overall posting and role. For example if an officer decided to go into the medical track and be a fully qualified doctor at lt junior grade as we see Julian Bashir is in DS9 then later a LT, I could totally see a Doctor holding that rank for a very long time possibly longer than 10 years simply because 1. In the real world it takes from 4 to 6 years to become a fully qualified doctor and even AFTER that, you have to specialise in a specific field working with specialists and learning under them in specialities such as infectious disease, neuro surgery etc which is at least another 4-6 years. I imagine in starfleet that's the same so you would likely be holding the lower officer ranks for quite some time 2. They like the role they are in and its much more hands on and direct as with the medical field as the higher up you go the more administrative it becomes and many people simply dont want that or id imagine many dont want to do command training to become a captain of a ship 3. Depending on their post and station perhaps having a medical officer higher than say a LT or LT commander just isn't needed so and has nothing to do with ability and talent and i think only a fool would dismiss a Lt Junior grade doctor or LT grade Doctor.
A ship might suffer over officering due to a shortage of ships to be assigned to or because of a particular situation. A particular problem might need a particular group to solve.
In military officers do not command ships. They do command people. It is why we have duties like CO and XO. So the ship commander and the as it is commonly called "first officer". What are actually completely independent from the rank. It is another reason why comically oversized ships are a problem. In my opinion it is extremely important to take team organization as part of the design.
*harry Kim watches intently*
Top of his class, graduates Ensign, no promotion for seven years.
@@lynngreen7978yeah, idk where Venom got the idea that ensigns are all just automatically promoted after 2 years but that's never been true, there have always been older people who were still ensigns long after leavin th academy
@ashleycross7593 The fanfic or the video?
Starfleet regulations section 326 clearly state: “All Ensigns in active service will be promoted after an average of two years except for Harry Kim.”
Good 1 Dude! 😂
'After 2 years you'll be automatically promoted' Cries in Harry Kim.
he is promoted to chief coffee maker
Harry Kim jumped ranks from ensign to captain. 😊
One thing about this: Almost all this discussion revolves around the Command/Tactical promotion track. Science/Medical and Engineering/Ops have different needs, criteria, and promotion tracks. A real-world example is how medical officers in navies may be captains, and even admirals, but they are not commanding ships. They are in charge of base hospitals, large organizations, etc.
Exactly, my father-in-law was a Major in the medical corps. He was over what was effectively an ER.
Some of the best colonels and lt colonels I dealt with in the US Army were doctors.
@@lanceheaps581 Until they were at the range. :)
I knew the man who was the chief engineer on the USS Nautilus for its polar expedition. Later, during the Cuban Missile Crisis, he was at the Pentagon. He retired a Rear Admiral. I don't know if he ever commanded his own vessel, though.
RIP, Paul.
Enterprise-A had three captains: Kirk, Spock and also Scotty, he held his promotion to Captain from being temporarily assigned to the Excelsior.
Scotty was never Captain of the Enterprise. Scotty was Chief Engineer but held the rank of Captain. Scotty was supposed to be Captain of Engineering aboard the Excelsior, i.e. not the ship's captain. It's similar to the old position of Captain of Aviation during WWII, later changed to Commander, Air Group or CAG. It seems Kirk was supposed to take command of the Excelsior as an admiral because the Excelsior was to be the new flagship of the Federation. That and the transwarp drive being the reason why a Captain of Engineering was required instead of a regular Chief Engineer. However, the Excelsior only led to a new warp scale and not a transwarp drive along with the events of Star Trek III--IV, so those plans fell through.
@@ganykaliya7811 Yeah that's what I meant.
@@ganykaliya7811 Yeah, 3 people with the rank of CAPTAIN. The rank of Captain doesn't mean you are the Commanding Officer.
@@ganykaliya7811 the same held true for Spock, except that Spock was a science officer (and in the Kelvin Timeline, an Academic Officer as well), and, unlike Officers of the Line like Kirk, Sulu, Chekov, etc., was not required to take the Kobayashi Maru (as cited by Spock as he laid dying from acute radioactive poisoning in ST2:TWOK). In TWOK, he was promoted to Captain (making him a Restricted Line Officer) and was the Commanding Officer of the USS Enterprise, which by then was a training vessel for Academy cadets. Kirk, who was a Rear Admiral during the TWOK training run, took over from Spock as CO when the USS Enterprise was called upon to active service as a war vessel; Spock citing the Starfleet regulations to Kirk (who outranked Spock) in his quarters. Thus while Spock was still a Captain, he became the ship's Executive Officer (XO) upon Kirk taking command as CO.
A "Restricted Line Officer" in the US Navy is primarily associated with limited command opportunities.l, specifically command at sea. Spock is the Captain of Enterprise, by definition he is an officer "of the Line." Ie. not a staff officer. Staff officers are Medical Officers, JAG, chaplains, EDO(Engineering Duty Only), Supply Corps... but this video seems not to be referring to line or staff in this way.
US military, except for battlefield commissions, requires a 4 year college degree to become an officer. Fewer than 20% are ring knockers (academy graduates). Most officers are college graduates who enlisted and went to Officer Candidate School (OCS). There are also prior enlisted who used their GI Bill to go to college while serving and then attended OCS. They are called "mustang" Officers.
Battlefield commissions will generally only be seen during war time. Then there are enlisted who don't attend OCS, but are Officer material, and they can go to Warrant Officer School.
Many Warrant Officers are prior enlisted duty experts, but most Warrant Officers are Helicopter Pilots in the Army. Helicopter pilots in the Navy are commissioned, Air Force and Navy fixed wing pilots(non-helicopter) are all commisioned.
@leokim2998 I was pretty sure Army only did warrant officers. Regardless not all warrants are helicopter pilots, but you are likely right that most are.
@@JessRenee91481 in the Army, the vast majority of the Warrant Officers are the Helicopter Pilots. There are commissioned Helicopter pilots, of course, those are the Platoon, Company and Battalion commanders. Those guys are, of course commisioned, and have more duties than flying helicopters, which is of course more fun and far more enjoyable than the administrative duties associated with being a company or Battalion commanders. The duty experts like the Chief Warrant Officer 5s... are kind of like unicorns and are seen only when they want to be seen.
@@JessRenee91481US Army uses Warrant Officers as technical experts, as this practice dates back to the frontier era where clerks and civilian craftsmen at a post or fort would receive a warrant for their services. They would take orders from officers, but as an officer in their own right they would be left alone by the general population of enlisted men and may lead a specialized work team.
Other branches view warrant officers as extremely niche outside of the Coast Guard where they may lead stations, patrol boats, or serve as investigators.
I believe that the Air Force did away with warrant officers after Vietnam. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
That was indeed a fascinating watch on late 23rd century ranking in Starfleet. A part 2, expanding onto the Admiralty and/or the ranking structure in the ENT &/or DS9 eras would be interesting. Also, that opening was indeed... something.
I would love to see a video on the enlisted ranks as well as the Starfleet Marines.
don't need to worry about them since they die every episode. no time for promotion
i actually looked this up this morning.
Many nations rigidly bureacratize their military promotion structure. In the US, exceptional officers may get Below Zone promotions after O-3, but that may mean only a one or two year lead over the others. The exception to this is the General Officer or Flag Ranks. Once someone pins a star on, they are not really subject to a rigid schedule, but promoted based on what position they hold. It took David Patreus 21 years to make full Colonel O-6. It only took him seven years to go from Brigadier General to Full General. However, in the past, like during WWII and WWI, due to losses and shaking out incompetent officers, rapid promotions could happen regularly in many armies including the US, UK and German. The famous Panzer Graf, Hyazinth Graf Strachwitz, went from Reserve Captain (O-3) in 1939, to Generaleutnant (O-8) in 1944. James Gavin of the US Army, went from Captain to Major General in 4.5 years. But, stuff like that hasn't occurred in NATO militaries since WWII.
and now you have one idiot Senator holding up senior officer promotions in the US Navy.
@@davidwright1577 Duckworth?
I think she ran out of gas a couple years ago
@M167A1 republican Senator Tuberville of Alabama is the one holding up all military promotions that require congressional approval.
Geordi moved the fastest.He was LT JG (Ensign and a half) just like Worf in season 1.
In season 2, he became chief engineer and was promoted to LT.
Then next season, he was promoted to LT CMDR.
Sadly, Mr Worf would not make LT CMDR until the movie generations.(Cue the piano and violins)
And Data never got a third full pip. Fifteen years, multiple decorations, executive officer and command postings... but never a filler for his pip.
@@jessecarozza8134 Well Data had no ambition before the emotion chip, so all he knew was he wanted to be a good starfleet officer.If you don't show interest in command, you won't be approached for promotion beyond LT CMDR.
@@_BLACKSTAR_ I think data does have some ambition but we dont see it until later. Data definately shows some ambition with his pretty much barging in and going I want the Sutherland. Now he does it ina very polite Data llike way but he definately wants it and feels like he can do a good job. He also clearly does want the First Officer and Captain billet in gambit although he doesnt want to get there that way. After the emotion chip I agree he is looking to progress more as he was going to get the Enterprise E jobs before the events of lets not talk about that movie.
Worf's career track is definately weird, he also despite only being a Lt Cmdr might be one of the most influential men in the whole quadrant by the end of DS9 given who his friends are on both sides.
@@hmsverdun I agree somewhat about when Data went to Picard and said "You need ship commanders, WTF?"
Having Data do that BEFORE the emotion chip made no sense to me.
Just like the Vulcan leader guy Vlos in the Enterprise series getting all pissed off when Archer and Tpau walked in with the Kirshara.
They NEVER did that in any series before that unless it was explained by some reason, Vulcans NEVER showed emotion.
Data is kind of like a eunich he just doesn't have the desire beyond wanting to do his duty.
Also like that episode where Data was kidnapped by the trader guy and told him he had no redeeming qualities and should be destroyed, then pointed and fired a disruptor at him just as he was being transported, and then he LIED to OBrian who said the disruptor was in a state of discharge during transport.
"Something must have happened during transport"
It's just so incongruous with his character not having emotions that he would be able to lie.
Star Trek has had alot of inconsistency in their writing over the decades.I'm sure if Roddenberry were here alot of this would not be happening.
@@hmsverdun Worf I think was held back in promotion after the Duras incident when Picard told him he was being written up for killing him.
He didn't pull another stunt like that until Jadzia was in trouble behind enemy lines and he defied orders to go save her.
He was already LT CMDR at this point, so it doesn't affect his career trajectory as much, in fact, showing that kind of independent initiative may just get noticed by some admiral who likes that kind of spunk, leading to a promotion.
I always wanted this video! Just waiting on the cartography of the gamma, beta and delta quadrant! This ties in beautifully with my request months ago about not needing the rank of Captain to command a ship.😀😎👍
Scotty was promoted to digital data for about 75 years after an incident with a dyson sphere.
However, as an engineer it must have been his dream to skip time and witness the technological progress.
RIP Scotty, best man. 😇
"Why are they all on one ship?"
Chekov: Tried that vonce... Got vorm in my ear. Not leaving my Wessel again!
Also Uhura her independent command led to the filling of a wardrobe.
At the beginning of ST:VI, Uhura said she had an Academy lecture to give. This and maybe a few other lines here and there could suggest that in the 23rd century no ship was a “mobile star base” like the Galaxy class and Kirk’s crew in the movies had more than one regular duty to perform. By the time of TWOK, they were part-time on the Enterprise, part-time other assignments because they were older and more experienced. Second, the five year mission was the exception not the rule, most officers were out for 2-3 years or less and then had time back home to rest and perform other duties. Likewise, in the Kelvin timeline Spock was an Academy instructor and first officer of Pike’s new Enterprise at the same time.
Star trek:Lower Decks does a really great job of showing the Lower levels of the command structure
Always a pleasure to see a new Video from you!
That opening was beautiful.
Poor Barclay. On the one hand, he was clearly a brilliant engineer, especially while directly supporting the efforts of a team. Eventually landing a nice job at Starfleet Academy can attest to that.
On the other hand, it's very clear that military life was not his best option for several reasons. I'm still shocked that he didn't at least receive some sort of demerit for that infamous holodeck program, considering that both the ship XO and his immediate superior officer had a full view of it. And he earned promotions very slowly.
Maybe Holodeck addiction is a common enough occurrence, that it's considered like any other nonviolent mental condition? The command staff does include a counselor after all. So maybe they just know how to deal with it and help move people on. If anything I think they handled it quite well all things considered.
Actually if one considers it, there a lot of administrative solutions to violent outbursts from the crew too. Engineering lockouts, phaser lockup, replicator lockouts for dangerous things. Which would make sense for tight quarter crew interactions, in isolated space.
This is generally pretty clear. Seeing the lower ranked officers staying there is typically going to be highly specialized such as doctor or scientist ect. They have a rank to command their job but are unlikely to be promoted since they are the top of there work path.
Not only did the Kirk era Enterprise have an over-abundance of high ranking officers on one ship, but also within the same duty shift ( a ship is on a 24 hour clock, yet anything important seems to take place only when all department chiefs are all on duty simultaneously 🤔
This will blow your mind. But in the US Navy you have a lot of all enlisted crews on Gunboats. With the highest ranking crewman is a CPO.
This was a very well put together and insightful video. One thing to consider is the difference between a regular line office and a restricted officer. Take for example an officer who is a doctor or lawyer etc. Rank progress for them could require different qualities that say someone running the ship. Also you could have some one who has a real talent for say warp theory or ship design or just logistics. They might not be great at running a ship and would never break past LT junior grave you mentioned but would be a real prize for starship design bureau or even the logistic core. They will likely never command even a small ship but would it be realistic to expect them to stay sub lieutenants for the rest of their careers?
Likewise do you need to waste a top notch ship captain like say Kirk to hold a senior position in say Starfleet security which would have a much narrower focus. But again they need rank when interacting with “regular officers “. Otherwise would a traditional say commander or captain take seriously a very skilled security officer who’s only a Lt jnr?
The Enterprise-A had three captains during its entire life. All at the same time. (Per the novels and original scripts, 4 in ST5). Kirk, Spock, and Scotty (and Sulu). With McCcoy, Uhura, and Chekov all full Commanders.
Academy Graduates might achieve a lieutenant grade. Saavik demonstrates this, though I would argue Kirk and Sulu also did so. TNG era, top of the class graduated as an Ensign, with no promotion for seven years - barring a war.
I just noticed "Lieutenant" Valeris was a lieutenant commander.
Also in the TOS era there is "Fleet Captain" an intermediate position between a Captain and Commodore. I would argue that in First Contact, and the Dominion War, Picard was a Fleet Captain - senior captain in any group situation, with authority to assume command of forces.
Valeris was a costume error, both rank and color of division, according to Nick Meyer. He laments in the commentary for the film that no one noticed her colors and rank were off.
@@crownprincesebastianjohano7069 I blame it on originally writing the character as Saavik.
They also forgot that Worf has red blood.
*shifts eyes at the first minute of the video* ...wait what...on one hand congratz on the other hand that was pretty funny
15:50 Okay. We are talking about a group whose practice is to send the entire command echelon of a starship down to the surface of an unexplored planet to make first contact with a possibly hostile race with only a couple of redshirts to use as human shields. So having a ship stuffed full of flag officers without any thought of the loss of experienced leaders should the ship be destroyed is probably common practice in Starfleet.
I always assumed on the original Enterprise when we had Scotty Spock Kirk McCoy they had been off of the ship and for this particular Mission or a special Mission were reassigned to the Enterprise at the behest of its Captain meeting Captain Kirk who by this time would be a senior captain and through his exploits had great pull within Starfleet
congrats on 25thousand my friend😊
I always thought it unrealistic that almost every original TOS officer ends up a captain. I get that people want their favorite characters to advance, but not every character would want command or be suited for it.
All of the original bridge officers and Scotty were already command officers. That means that if the circumstances required it, they were already proven and authorized to take command of the ship. TOS Enterprise chain of command was Kirk, Spock, Scot, Uhura, Sulu.
While McCoy out ranked Uhura and Sulu, he was not considered to be a command officer and not authorized to take command of the ship. While he was in charge of the ship's medical department, he had no authority to give orders to anyone other than medical department personnel outside of medical and health concerns.
In TNG, Crusher was not a command officer until she passed a test where she had to prove she was willing to order someone to do something that would result in their death in order to save the ship.
@@oldtimefarmboy617 Sorry, but you are thinking of Troi. Troi had to order Geordi to his death in a simulation to pass her command test.
In the real world only 8% of Academy graduates ever reach the rank of Captain.
@@sabrewolf4129 the implication of the story in that episode, given that Crusher had the rank of Commander, and was known to take some night shift command watches, is she had passed the same test prior to the show starting.
@@sabrewolf4129 What I have read with regard to American military promotion schema's is that the system is designed such that if you don't achieve promotion after a certain amount of time you are expected to retire, and if you don't take the hint they basically fire you. As such the number of people who go on to higher rank is pre-specified, but unfortunately politics and butt kissing play at least as much if not a greater role in promotion from O-4 on as does competency.
One of your better presentations. Thank you.
It's not just with Starfleet. Older Star Trek did a really good job at showing professionalism even in the other races. I think you need to show that and what newer Trek has always got wrong. You need a command tree in any type of armed forces. It makes the universe believable.
Except in the JJverse where the put an academy dropout in command of a battleship 🙃
That was my biggest problem with '09. I could get over most everything else, but Kirk becoming captain at the end? I just never could get over that....just ask my friends. I've not shutup about it for nearly 15 years now lol.@@wpatrickw2012
As a funny coincidence, we get this video right as the Lower Decks crew gets promoted to Lt. JG
Also, congratulations on 25k!
It is criminal that you don't have more subscribers! Keep up the great work!
In a way, the Enterprise-A was the start of Starfleet accepting the idea of some crews putting comradeship ahead of their own careers. Kirk's crew was clearly perfectly willing to forego any further progress if they got to stay together (though obviously Sulu eventually flew the nest). It seemed in _VI_ all were preparing for retirement _at the same time_ , rather than being reassigned to other posts. If anything, the second (third) Enterprise was treated by Starfleet more like an early retirement home for Kirk and co: "Those seven old farts refuse to leave eachother? Fine, stick them on an antique ship and leave them to it."
I'd say by the 24th century the automatic promotion aspect was done away with. Based on what we see a more purely meritorious approach is adopted and the "Up or Out" stigma was largely done away with.
We see a number of times where an Enlisted man like O'brien is given jobs and positions in charge of officers because of his skill and experience, which is valued over rank.
No more free rides up the chain because we're pressured to move people up. Much "you have to earn it and prove yourself" approach.
It's also worth considering that different professions and specializations may simple be less inclined for promotion up the ranks.
On the Subject of Riker/Shelby
I wouldn't call Riker not taking a promotion "Blocking up the chain". That's just Shelby being sour that she isn't getting the position she feels is owed to her. Refusing a promotion was nothing, They would have just given the job to someone else just as deserving. There are plenty of other good officers around.
Diving into Beta canon, the reason why Riker stay's on Enterprise AFTER Best of both worlds is to keep an eye on Picard who was thought by some to be unfit for duty after his assimilation. But that's Beta canon, your mileage may vary there
There are hundreds or thousands of other ships and candidates for any job that comes up. Starfleet doesn't revolve around Riker, or anyone else and if it did and Riker refusing a promotion really was such a big deal then the organization must either be tiny, extremely poorly designed, or corrupt.
Shelby was arrogant and needed to learn that she isn't owed the Enterprise posting. If she was as good as she thinks she is, she could get a posting on any available ship she wanted and there were plenty around.
Starfleet doesn't revolve around her and it doesn't owe her the Enterprise. If I were an admiral I would give Shelby another XO posting half because she's earned it and is good for it. The other half because she needs a humbling.
truth the tng is probably a bit closer to reality in some ways with limited billet's available for certain ranks and limited chances of promotion and just waiting for someone to retire or get promoted or die on the job in order to receive your next billet and promotion.
I always wondered why Star Trek rarely seemed to use Commander’s as ship captains. From what I know of both the Royal Navy and the US Navy a ship like Voyager would be commanded by a Commander. Even a tiny ship like USS Brattain had a fully captain with a crew of 35
Will you do videos like this for the other major powers?
So knowing all this wonderful new knowledge, along with your absolutely brilliant summary on the differences between a leader and a commander, and I hope you'll excuse my Quebecois:
Who, THE FUCK, did Grand Ensign of the Fleet Harry Kim piss off that he was stuck with one pip for 7 years?!
Lovely little video. The mineuta of Starfleet Professional Development is a great interest to nerds like me, and your usual talents shine brightly Venom-Senpai.
Ps. That intro got me acting less than honourable ;)
Janeway, obviously. And Fleet Admiral Berman. :P
Harry Kim was not showing enough initiative, which is why he was stuck at ensign, while Tom Paris got promoted to Lt Cmdr, busted back down and then re-earned his rank. Kim was too willing to follow Janeway like a puppy rather than showing more intiative and balls. The only time he really stepped out of line with Janeway was when he got infected with "love" for that hot scientist, and he was willing to leave the ship to be with her. He even said it to Janeway's face: "I've said yes ma'am to every one of your orders, but not this time.:
You also didn't speak about the enlisted ranks. Will that be another video ?
are there any enlisted ranks for starfleet? ive only ever seen officers. no privates, corporals, or sargents? in Enterprise, there were a few in MACO but thats not Starfleet.
The lack of enlisted personnel aboard Star Fleet vessels has been a chronic oversight dating back to TOS. I've heard various explanations, but what it comes down to is either a lack of knowledge or deliberate disregard by the writers & show runners. The only time we've ever seen any reasonable number of enlisted was on the Excelsior bridge during Undiscovered Country.
"Piss and vinegar" 😂 get a patent on that before the folks at Heinz get any ideas. Thanks Venom, enjoyed this installment more than I thought I would 👍
Will you cover the enlisted ranks???
Yeah I can cover that. There's a lot more variety.
As a military veteran, the crew of the Enterprise wouldn't exist. Stagnation of promotions would be detrimental to crew moral and personal service ambition. I've seen the effects of promotions and demotions in the military. Most officers are very ambitious with dreams of command time before reaching field grade ranks.
Great video love the 23rd century Star Fleet a nice mix of military and exploring agency
A gunboat is a pissant ship. President John F Kennedy was a Lt.J.G. while commanding a PT Boat in WW2 and similarly on those vessels and Ensign is a First Officer. Destroyers are commanded by either Lieutenants or Lieutenant Commanders. Cruisers will get full Commanders. Only the larger vessels will actually get Captains. As only 8% of Naval Academy graduates ever reach the actual rank of Captain, this makes Captains very rare.
I think Kim, along with most of the crew in Voyager, didn't get promoted in order to maintain the chain of command. Usually, when people got promoted in Star Trek, the crew would get rotated off the ship to go off and do other things in their career, while new ensigns were able to get transferred in. The crew in Voyager were all isolated from the federation, and they probably thought it would take decades for them to get home. If everyone ranked up to commander, it might make it more difficult to maintain and manage that chain of command, "I'm the same rank as all of you, you can't order me around!" lol. Another more realistic explanation is that Hollywood general treats asian male actors like dog shit, holding them in very low regard. But thankfully, that seems to be changing nowadays.
“You’ll spend four years at the academy” *Nog sneaking off in the background*
There are actually 3 captains on the Enterprise for the last few movies. Scotty is promoted to Captain of Engineering in the third movie, and is wearing a Captain’s insignia during the briefing scene in the sixth movie. CO and XO as captain mirrors current USN policy for carriers. All the department heads on Enterprise are senior commanders.
Is there a way we can subscribe and NOT get access to the full performance of the fan fic?
Ensigns also clean out the holodeck filters.
Very well done!
Technically- Kirk's Enterprise during the latter end of the TOS movies - Scotty also held the rank of Captain. So Kirk, Spock, and Montgomery Scott all held the rank of captain. 😊
Are there not any "ship hands" or "able seamen" on a starfleet ship? Are they all officers and commanders in Training?
Yeah, you also had the non commissioned officers like Chief O'Brian, also a lot of extras were called "Crewmen", which I believe was also an enlisted rank equivalent to Seamen in modern time. In the TOS movie era they were seen wearing the uniforms with the tan(white?) shoulders. They just never really went over them in Star Trek.
OBrien wasn’t an NCO, he was a Warrant officer (a strange progression as he was an ensign in a flashback). But given his role on DS9, he was probably a lt. cmdr or cmdr equivalent.
@@highlorddarkstar Ah, they always called him Chief so I assumed Master Chief at least to be head of operations for a starbase.
@@logicplague ; I think lore wise, O'Brian is a Chief Petty Officer in TNG, and a Senior Chief Petty Officer in DS9.
He probably gets promoted to Master Chief Petty Officer some time post-Dominion war.
@@logicplague I was under the impression he was a Chief Warrant Officer (although I know UK and US have highly divergent uses of the term “Warrant Officer”).
What's your opinion of star trek online's lore of making lieutenants acting Captains of frigates or small ships. Gameplay aside, if there is a lack of experienced personnel especially Captains, it might make sense to give command of smaller ships to Lieutenant ranked officers for them to gain appropriate experience.
congratulations on 25,000 subscribers
I feel the 24th and early 25th century Federation officer system is not stagnant as such... it is simply something more informal, due to the unofficial rankings of ships serving rather different roles.. for a very senior officer on a capital vessel (aka Riker)...
transfer to the captaincy position on a smaller ship, is effectively a demotion in terms of career prospects, whilst his/her career would be usually growth within their own ship...
smaller, more near earth, vessels, do already have a hierarchy, but, that's different from galaxy traveling kingdoms of ships....
also, I feel the system is somewhat more like that of the USSR, where, the academy is somewhere you go after you have already completed a certain period serving in the fleet as a non-commissioned able-seaman, or the equivalent thereof. most of the crew of the enterprise, I believe, never went to Starfleet academy, you only needed it to move to the command trek or something equally major.
Thank you for this video.
16:00 Reminds me of a story from WW2 (I think it was in North Africa prior to Montgomery taking command?) where lead tanks for various small units were knocked out in a battle, but rather than trudge back home with the rest of the surviving crews, the commanders just went to another tank and got back into the fighting (sending someone else to the back in the process). If I recall correctly, by the end of the battle there was at least one tank being commanded by a major with a sergeant, two lieutenants and a captain crewing the thing.
Very informative, thank you
To be fair, on larger US navy ships like Nimitz or Ford class carriers, you will typically see more than one O-6 per ship. The Chief engineer, chief medical officer, the wing commander, the supply officer, chief of staff, the XO of the ship etc etc are all usually captains in rank as well. So for a crew of 3500 + 2000 aviation staff there might be up to 10 captains on board. Now I understand crews on Connies are not that large, but there is precedent for more than one captain serving on board a single ship. So a rank, especially in naval terms, tends to have more to do with how many personnel one holds responsibility for rather than what grade of ship is being commanded.
I would definitely be okay with a Miranda as a first command. But if I reach the rank of Commodore in Starfleet, I would stay that rank and refuse the rank of Admiral. And I would settle for a Promixa class Battleship and get the reject known as the Atlas out of mothballs.
Is it possible exceptional cadets graduate from the Academy and are immediately made a Lieutenant J.G, something like the top 1% of the graduating class each year? I always wondered if that's what happened with Savik.
Not in the US. Everyone, even prior service, starts at O-1.
Kirk is one example, his first assignment after the Academy was to the Farragut as a Lieutenant
@@davidwright1577 The Farragut to me will always be a Constitution-class, not a Miranda knock-off.
I actually think Julian Bashir can give us an explanation for Saavik being a cadet Lieutenant J.G. Some specializations require graduate education after "college" so in a system based on the current US military system, someone can graduate the academy as an ensign and than proceed directly to a graduate program for law, medicine, engineering or science, and then graduate that program as some sort of lieutenant. Or perhaps Saavik was already a Ph.D. and going through OCS to join Starfleet.
Name the third british officer semester "command and responsibility"
This greatly reminds me of neural networks.
Each individual has a pattern of interconnects to those above and below them within the hierarchy. The pattern is relatively the same throughout: taking orders from set few above and giving orders larger set below. In this way, the hierarchy structure is a fractal.
Interestingly, promotion is what allows for this 'Starfleet' neural network to evolve.
And I do mean evolve in the Darwinian sense. The evolutionary pressure for the individual is "doing well", which is defined differently as the whole evolves. "Doing well" for Starfleet itself is defined by the Federation as a whole. But, within the framework of game theory, etc, "doing well" for both the Federation and Starfleet is probably expansion. So "doing well" for an individual will be related to the interaction with the borders. Even if that interaction is in a support role.
The correlation between such a structure and biology seems very strong. I wonder if there's a biological equivalent to promotion or if a neuron in the brain will always have the same position and responsibilities throughout its life.
.... Fascinating.
(Edit for clarity. And spelling. )
Roddenberry never really considered Starfleet a "military organization, " but we're all aware that it functions as the military for the United Federation of Planets. Venomgeek is extrapolating a fair bit where a precedent does exist. I'm guessing he's English where in the Royal Navy and Sublieutenant rank does indeed a exist(it doesn't in Starfleet but is does in Romulan rank structure), and I have heard of a Lieutenant exam in the Royal Navy, but it was for Midshipmen that had been promoted to Acting Lieutenant and was phased in the early 20th century around the same time the rank of Lieutenant Commander and Lieutenant junior grade comes into existence. The analog of the "Lieutenants exam" just doesn't really exist in the Modern Navy nor has it been referred to in canon sources associated with Star Trek. A Bridge Officers Exam has been seen in the 6th Season of TNG when Deanna is promoted to commander. The confusion over who would be in command on the bridge in the case of the 5th season episode "Disaster" wouldn't exist as there are differences between "line" and "staff" officer. And the distinction of an "operations officer" as not being a line officer is a little peculiar. The Ops officer on Navy ships and in Starfleet is the 3rd in Command of the ship after the Captain, Executive Officer(XO), and then Ops generally.
The excess amount of Captains on the Enterprise does seem a bit peculiar. But I will point out on modern US carriers there are often as many as 5 or 6 and many times up to 7 or 8 Naval Officers with the Rank of Captain (O-6) at any given time. The Commanding Officer is a Captain, but now the XO is also a Captain (O-6). The Commander of thr Air Wing(CAG, which is "Commander, Air Group," a holdover from when the aircraft were called a "Group" as opposed to a "Wing." The Deputy Wing Commander (DCAG) is also a Captain. If the Strike Group Commander(geberallu a one-star Admiral) is embarked, his Chief of Staff is also a Captain. A number of officers in the Ship's company can also be a Captain, such as the Chaplain(although generally a Commander), the Ship's senior Medical Officer. The ChEng(Chief Engineer) possibly could have been frocked which raises the number of Captains to 7 or 8. By the end of the Iowa-class Battleships time in service, their XOs were all Captains, too and they had at least 4 or 5 Commanders(O-5s) aboard.
I'm honestly a bit surprised that the Galaxy Class Enterprise didn't have more higher ranking officers aboard more often, except for of course confusion for those watching who would probably be as confused as any civilian aboard a modern Naval Ship.
I don't think it was a matter of malicious corruption for Riker to be in the way of any promotions(except, of course aboard the Enterprise herself, Data or Worf or LaForge would all have been fine First Officers). The bureaucracy of Starfleet doesn't seem to force an "up or out" mentality. And considering how long lived many races are in Star Trek, it's probably a very good thing.
TNG reminds me of the later Honor Harrington books with the Solarian Navy introduced... with four-star admirals as staff officers to five-star admirals because, well, no one retires and they just accrue seniority promotions. And the top slots never refresh because, again, no one retires. And the Navy doesn't actually do anything so there's no, shall we say, operational attrition.
Are there any ranks at the admiral group? Like fleet admiral, etc?
The assumption is basically US/UK Navy ranks: commodore, rear admiral, vice admiral, admiral, fleet admiral/admiral of the fleet, with possibly hypothetical higher ranks (ie we’ve never seen anyone higher than Fleet Admiral).
@@highlorddarkstarfleet admiral is the highest rank. They only take orders from the UFP president, and you can count them all on your fingers.
I know in the US, a lieutenant commander or major is where a lot of people retire after a long career. Mainly because the armed forces politely let you know that you aren’t getting the hire ranks. Basically only the best are promoted based on what they can offer in needs of the organization or retaining experience, special skills, etc. I’m sure others can speak to this better than me though.
Well, it's an interesting take from a UK perspective. At least I'd know how I'd far as a British Officer. Data went into it briefly with Lore. 3 yrs as an Ensign and 10 years in the Lt. ranks. I can't say I've heard the terms you're describing on any of the shows.
So you are saying a good place for Kirk would be as a Commodore. He still commands which is his strength but put in him charge of multiple ships.
Commodore vs Fleet Captain?
a fleet captain is an admiral's chief of staff.
There are also post-graduate schools such as Command School, Starfleet War College and Advanced Tactical training. These courses take around 18 months to 2 years and give their graduates a promotion of one rank but sometimes even two ranks such as with Ro Laren. Also, doctors, not nurses, graduate Starfleet Academy with the rank of Lt. Junior Grade not Ensign. There is also the issue of non-Commissioned ranks above Chief Petty Officer. We know they exist. For example, O'Brien was Senior Chief Petty Officer but only after he transferred to a space station. Janice Rand was a Master Chief Petty Officer during Star Trek IV at Starfleet HQ. We also have Specialist Kosinski and his equations. My theory is that once a Senior Enlisted person is above Chief Petty Officer Starfleet considers you too valuable to be aboard a starship. A Senior Chief Petty Officer is the highest for a Starbase. However, Master Chiefs are all basically confined to Starfleet HQ. Warrant Officers are, with some exceptions, at HQ or some important installation. The only way for Rand to get back aboard a starship was to be promoted to Officer rank. I know it doesn't logical sense that being promoted makes you less valuable, but that's apparently the way its and is based on attitudes in the US military where junior officers receive less respect than senior enlisted or warrant officers. Also, Venom Geek Media should at least try to tackle the rank of Fleet Captain.
I don't think Riker is blocking anything, we see that there are a number of commander ranked officers on the Enterprise D. Troi is a commander, and I thing La Forge becomes a commander. Dr. Crusher is even the rank of captain!
It's just that they're never 2nd in command, because that's the only job Riker is occupying/blocking.
Riker is not blocking advancement in promotion, just advancement in the chain of command aboard the Enterprise.
Geordi and Troi are LT commanders and crusher is superior to whoever she is treating.
We need a reference guide to the confusing ranking in the movies. In Star Trek 2009, Kirk jumped ranks from cadet directly to captain. What is Left-tenant? 🤔 In TOS the rank of commodore seemed to be interchangeable with fleet captain. We noticed Stocker being pushed around by Kirk in Deadly Years. Picard seemed to be a fleet captain. We saw him taking command and assigning command to Rike, LaForge and Data. Vice Admiral and full Admiral are the top ranks they seemed to try and accomplished. The ranks in Star Trek follow the traditional ranking of the navy. It was based on Gene Roddenberry's service. Case closed. 🙂🙂
At 15:54 Technically, The Enterprise has three Captains: Kirk, Spock and Scotty as he was promoted to Captain in Star Trek III; granted he was made Captain of Engineering on the Excelsior, but he was never reduced in rank following the events of that film and what occurred in Star Trek IV, in fact he keeps that rank for the remainder of his Starfleet career on the Enterprise-A, the Launching of the Enterprise-B, and when he rematerializes into the Next Generation series.
I think you are being too hard on how "The Next Generation" portrayed this while being too soft on how TOS did. After all Kirk was said to be the youngest person to have attained the rank of "captain" by that time, and he couldn't have been more than a 13 or 14 year veteran when he did so, meanwhile Spock and Scotty had been in Starfleet longer and were only still Lieutenant Commander's.
I... i... wut. 😂
Nicely done
16:00 Depending on the cannonicity of movie novelizations the Enterprise in "The Wrath of Kahn" set out with a rear admiral, three captains and two commanders (although one of those commanders was the CMO/ship's surgeon).
Forgot Destroyer Saladin look forward to Klingons.
The commanding officer of the USS Grisom was a Captain?. This feels like your putting current naval standards against what you feel Starfleet would do.
"You don't have the right stuff, and maybe need to make room for people who do"
Sounds like most of my working life 😂
Is there a website I can visit to see pictures of the ships seen in this video? All this cool beta cannon stuff is badass.
I've always wondered why Picard wasn't commodore or rear Admiral, since he was in command of the Flagship in TNG.
What type of Captain do you think star-fleet is looking for? In terms of personality? It seems different in TOS compared to TNG.
I would love to command in that period a constellation or Miranda class
While i understand why they don't t I would like to see a Star Trek game simulate your character's journey via promotion. You start as an ensign and the campaign takes several years until you reach Admiral.
It's my understanding that for most, to be promoted, you have to transfer to another assignment. That would probably explain why Harry Kim spent seven years as an Ensign since he had no where to transfer to.
More Drac please
I never understood how Riker not taking a promotion could hold up the whole promotion system. He would open ONE SPOT, that would be filled by ONE PERSON. further by not taking a captain chair, someone else got promoted which opened up their spot and so on....
Because being the XO of the flagship is crucial position of responsibility one that riker is overqualified for. He's depriving the service of a captain. And makes it harder for new talent to come up
@@venomgeekmedia9886 But what Im saying is that there are OTHER important starships, there are other Galaxy and Nebula and Excelsior XOs and one of them must have been given command of the Melbourne the same as (Unnamed) ship he had turned down command of before it.
So when he turned down the command of (unnamed) they offered the chair to Cmd Smith of the USS (whatever) who accepted. Then the USS (whatever) needed an XO so a up and comer was promoted into that seat. If Riker had take command of the USS (unnamed) Cmd Smith of the USS (whatever) couldn't have. So the same number of slots XO slots open for a up and comer hot shot. Just because its not the flagship doesn't mean they can't get a XO chair. FURTHER MORE. If he HAD taken the command of either the USS (whatever) or the USS Melborne, it still only would have opened ONE CHAIR. Whoever took command of those ships would only result in ONE OTHER promotion no matter who took it. Starfleet isn't leaving all those other ships uncaptained and not promoting into other XO spots because Riker is still XO of the enterprise. They have Thousands of ships to crew.
Janeway is technically is a Commander as she was a Lt Commander before Voyager if I recall from the Bio
Great video! However I will say definately depends not just on your ability but specialist track and overall posting and role. For example if an officer decided to go into the medical track and be a fully qualified doctor at lt junior grade as we see Julian Bashir is in DS9 then later a LT, I could totally see a Doctor holding that rank for a very long time possibly longer than 10 years simply because 1. In the real world it takes from 4 to 6 years to become a fully qualified doctor and even AFTER that, you have to specialise in a specific field working with specialists and learning under them in specialities such as infectious disease, neuro surgery etc which is at least another 4-6 years. I imagine in starfleet that's the same so you would likely be holding the lower officer ranks for quite some time 2. They like the role they are in and its much more hands on and direct as with the medical field as the higher up you go the more administrative it becomes and many people simply dont want that or id imagine many dont want to do command training to become a captain of a ship 3. Depending on their post and station perhaps having a medical officer higher than say a LT or LT commander just isn't needed so and has nothing to do with ability and talent and i think only a fool would dismiss a Lt Junior grade doctor or LT grade Doctor.
Remember Scotty is a captain too
A ship might suffer over officering due to a shortage of ships to be assigned to or because of a particular situation. A particular problem might need a particular group to solve.
Didnt Shelby take command of the Enterprise F as an Admiral ever so briefly before getting the yet?
In military officers do not command ships. They do command people. It is why we have duties like CO and XO. So the ship commander and the as it is commonly called "first officer". What are actually completely independent from the rank. It is another reason why comically oversized ships are a problem. In my opinion it is extremely important to take team organization as part of the design.
What about Fleet Captain?
You forgot Fleet Captain.
Haha I did not expect that intro 😂
If there are two in a rowing boat, then one is the captain - an old sailor saying.
There were 3 captains on the Enterprise,Kirk,Spock and scotty
Can you do a video on gunboats and other small starships in Trek?