This book makes me sympathize with Alia. She didn’t ask to be born that way and I feel it was Jessica’s responsibility to help her not to become abomination. The kids helped each other but Alia was alone.
You're supposed to feel that way. It's not a distinct or interesting take - it's just a simple observation that Alia is one of the most if not the most tragic characters. What you said is like saying "the books made me feel like the harkonnens were bad guys"... Like yeah... No kidding pal.
I agree. There's a part in children of dune when alia is arguing with the baron. In her mind and he starts giving her a headache. She says I'm just going to take a sedative and sleep.
Kinda find it funny that idaho was used as the barometer to see if the plan was on track "Are we still on the path" *Makes Idaho that then tries to kill him* "This attempt on my life was slower than my liking perhaps we should go harder"
Leto is really a tragic figure; he gave up so much of himself, so much of who he _could_ have been, just so that a species which would hate him for all eternity might survive. No one gives thanks to the man who saved them, only praise to the God who they think was as cruel as he was powerful.
Jessica was a really shitty mother when you think about it. Not exactly top tier as a grand mother either. Paul, Alia and Leto, all deeply tragic characters that were ultimately alone.
she knows she's not convincing in her slow as hell reply when confronted by the duke about being a spouse and am other first or a bene gesserit, and they both know it's all too obvious.
While she's a horrible person in terms of morality, I do think a lot of her failures to protect or love her children and grandchildren came from the Bene Gesserit training and the botched trial by which she became a reverend mother. Her emotions were entirely obliterated by thousands of her predecessors, and her son basically chose to undergo the same process by which he abandoned his morals and emotions in the same ways. There's no way to be a Bene Gesserit and keep your humanity, as ironic as it is to say.
That's not surprising. She never got to the mourn her "husband". By the end of Dune, Paul had transformed into a monster, and Alia was already going through with her struggles.
I blame the Bene Gesserit. They viewed human emotions as weakness and didn't plan on the possibility that maybe not everyone in their order would be a complete psychopath.
If it weren’t for the Bene Geserit being the way they are, there would be no Leto II. If it weren’t for Leto II, humanity would never have survived the massive extinction event at the end times. So the Bene Geserit’s actions, for better or for worse, brought about the Golden Path. It’s almost like it was meant to happen, so that humanity can escape the “oracle”, or more broadly, “determinism”.
I have to just say, you are the best Dune channel out here. The way you describe the story is excellent and in depth, yet concise. You capture the deeper details and add great commentary as well, thank you!
I don't think the golden path seeks to avoid Kalizek. It seeks to prepare humanity for it by allowing pockets to hide from the oracle. The path just continues. Leto does not know where it eventually goes. He sees that it does not end.
I'm not a Dune expert, but I've read most of the novels over the years. Leto II is one of the strangest, and most memorable, of all of the characters. How would someone even attempt to make a movie of "God Emperor of Dune"? Daunting.
I really don't think its as hard as everyone always tries to make it seem if it were done in two parts. Yeah you're gonna have to have a lot of philosophy in there but theres plenty of action between the introduction chase, the couple rebellions from the face dancers and in the cities, plus Leto himself with the coming of the worm with Duncan and the constant fear in Moneo. On top of this you really just need it to follow Duncan, Nayla, and Siona a lot in part 1 and keep Leto's scenes and personal perspective tucked away for part 2. Maybe build on Duncan and Siona's grievances with the empire's stagnation and Leto II's actions in part one, then in two you receive much more nuance and his perspective on why he has taken this course of action. Just my thoughts
I feel like they've gone full circle.... achieving presience by breeding kwisatz haderach and completely throwing that away with looking for a mutation that nullifies prescience.
Probably the first video I've seen that comprehensively discusses and captures the many nuances of Leto and the Golden Path. Well done. Other times I've watched videos like this, I've usually felt, "It's not bad, but it missed some important thematic and conceptual issues." I don't think you left anything out. Bravo.
Everyone always forgets that the end DID justify the means and that sometimes it works out that way. Not that a person should strive for that, but the great are led by necessity, not choice. Herbert said as much many times and even holds your hand through the idea with Gurney and Geidi Prime…
To think that the quotes from the very beginning of both movies could be the god emperor reminiscing the past gives me chills. It sounds like an eldritch beast speaking
It's tragic that Leto could have just told all of humanity that they needed to follow his lead to avoid extinction but his psychic visons probably told him they wouldn't listen so he was forced to be a tyrant for "the greater good". It's true that peoole in general hate being told what to do, I should know as someone that from a young age always went against authority.
Is no one worried that all of this was just propaganda? Every tyrant thinks they're doing what is necessary to take group to utopia and when utopia is on the line.. What wouldn't you do to get there lol The invisibility to prescience just ends with the giant worm dude eating everyone one by one as they walk through a pair of doors unaware of what's on the other side
You go against authority because you've never been exposed to a healthy one. In Dune Leto assumes that most people haven't, so he becomes what people are used to, just one that can't be rebelled against.
Follow what lead? The empire of Dune was fine with how it was for the 10,000 years it had been running. Why would people want to take risks and abandon their "safe" life they were already living. Leto had to rule like a Tyrant to drive humanity to evolve
My God man, your analysis is excellent, I have read this book many times and you have provided a stable framework for understanding Leto II as mine had only pieces in the puzzle.
I'm a massive fan of lore material. I have seen all the movies. I've listened to the Audiobooks of Frank Herbert's first Dune Novel, the Brian Herbert Atredies Novel and am currently listening to the Butlerian Jihad book. Frank Herbert is the superior writer and although I like the Dune universe, I have never been fully captivated by it. Fantastic video.
Leto and the Sisterhood had Other Memory, so they pretty much understood human history. And the Sisterhood never did free itself from melange. They turned their homeworld, Chapter House, into a new DUNE, using sand trout to desiccate the landscape, and bring about a new generation of worms. But their and the Guild's total dependence on Spice to perform their standard miracles kept them under control for millennia, and kept them from growing beyond a certain point.
What the Sisterhood lacked was the ability to access their male memories, so they only had half the story. Why exactly that is, from a metanarrative POV (why did Herbert choose this gendered asymmetry for his story?), is not really clear. In any case, lacking that access, they could neither free themselves nor establish the Golden Path. However, the Sisterhood provided a vital function, as you observe. They were the only ones besides Leto with a comparably long-term sense of things and the desire to shape humankind over millenia. Everybody else was just trying to shore up their own interests. The long-term thinking of the Bene Gesserit is realized in their breeding program, which Leto takes over/inherits from them (and of which he is a product), and which he subsequently bequeaths (back) to them on his death. Leto is, in some sense, the BG's success, although to succeed they had to fail. Leto (and beginning even with Paul before him) was the "break" in their plan that they sought but could not achieve because of their inability to access their male memories.
It find it so absurd how people just reduce all the later Dune lore to just being “where it gets weird” and write it off. This shit is so powerful. It’s such a great representation of the reality that self sacrifice, sometimes even of what may feel like your own humanity is ultimately what will make you reach your full potential. And on a much larger scale, the pitfalls of humanity; greed, power, image, these are the things that currently drive us. They are hopelessly woven into our DNA and if we allow them to, they will destroy us all. It’s up for debate of course but such a poisonous way of life, from Dunes perspective, requires poison to cure it. Like the withdrawals from addiction, self discovery after a breakup or the tearing of muscle to promote growth, humanity needs to be painfully uprooted from its old ways to ensure its future. The allegory of the god emperor is nothing short of absolute genius on frank herberts part. It may be weird but it makes you think in ways that can benefit you, the people around you and maybe even humanity as a whole. It’s brilliant and that’s what science fiction is all about.
I think for most serious Dune fans, God Emperor is their favorite book in the series. It's certainly mine. I agree with your analysis, and also affirm that the book is weird as heck. Part of its charm, really, and not separate from the deep thinking it's doing, except maybe on a couple points.
The idea of Siona Atreides being invisible to prescience was an inspiration for one of my own OCs - a guy who pilots a godly mecha, and is a very human-like son of the Lovecraftian god Yog-Sothoth. The OC is almost entirely human, but anyone attempting to view a world he is in from outside of time cannot see into it. Also, I love Leto II and Hwi Noree's relationship. It's so wholesome.
Great video! The amount of research that goes into these is impressive. You should do a video on the God-Emperor of Warhammer 40k. Quite different in nature, but with comparable goals and similar pre-eminence.
Thanks for this history. I'm one who didn't read beyond the first 4 books, so I didn't know how the story ended. Appreciate all the time and effort you did on this video.
In the book(s) Leto intentionally avoids looking to see where the path goes beyond just looking into the immediate future. The final example of this was his own death, which he did not forsee, in part because of the genes of Sonia Atreides, but also because he refused to use his power of prescient vision to form it into reality.
I guess it’s the ultimate “does the ends justify the means” question isn’t it? Which I don’t have the answer for, but we can all consider, would we be willing to suffer absolute tyranny now so our future ancestors could exist?
No one will ever convince me that the ends justify the means. Leto II, Ozymandias and others that think themselves the savior of Humanity by forcing cooperation through adversity are megalomaniacs who only consider their own views and who make grand decisions that concerns everyone consulting no one. This is probably the nihilistic in me talking also, but maybe Humanity's time is over? How many species have come and gone on this planet alone? Isn't hubris to think that our species *needs* to outlast its time, again and again? We're not special and our extinction is inevitable. And in reference to the books, attempting to change Dune's ecology (and inherently the Fremen culture from survival to climate changing) had catastrophic consequences. Going againts the natural course of things was wrong - Liet Kynes realized this in his moment of death - "The most persistent principles in the universe are accident and error". The Universe is indifferent to any planning, because we are ultimately inconsequent to Nature. And so, what is Leto doing? Forcing a change in Men by altering its ecology (religion, politics, economics, etc.). Wouldn't the result be just as catastrophic? Of course, in a book you can write whatever result you want, but in the real world, this wouldn't work, nor would it be acceptable.
When I consider the way this story addresses the question of the ends justifying the means, there is something antithetical it achieves by taking this approach. To justify such actions, the ends must be apocalyptic. Would any moral person accept such great apparent (and in practice) evil, if it was not the singular path by which all of humanity might be saved? It even requires the certainty of prescience to bring us on this "moral" journey. I don't believe Herbert was acting as an apologist for the idea of ends justifying the means, but I'm not sure how others read it. I do think that we as humans have a predisposition to generalize from singular events, so I do think it's worth drawing attention to how many elements must be fulfilled before we can accept Leto's actions.
The story is about trying to cure ourselves of our addiction to letting other people make our decisions for us. This happens at the personal as well as the social/political level. Curing ourselves of this addiction may require some harsh measures to bring about mature acceptance of our own responsibilities, which are also our freedoms. To make your own choices means to take responsibility for everything that happens to you. That's scary and requires lots of effort on a moment to moment basis, so most people would rather just let someone else do all the deciding. Herbert wants us to see that we really have no choice in the matter: either we live our entire lives in an infantile state, or at some point we decide to take charge of ourselves. The story, as an allegory, is told at the level of the species in some grand, as you say apocalyptic battle with exigence, but when it comes down to it, the real implications are in our daily lives, right now. We don't need to worry so much about the ends/means question, I don't think it's so central. What is central is "How much responsibility do I take for myself? Do I let others make decisions for me, either personally or politically? Am I a victim of my own irresponsibility? Am I enchanted by charismatic public figures who make promises about a magical world where all my wishes can be fulfilled? Do I buy into advertising pitches because they sell me an idea of myself as the kind of person I want to be instead of the kind of person I am?" And so on. This is where the "rubber meets the road" in terms of Herbert's deep existential, moral, and thematic work. This is where the story has real implications for our lives and is not just some empty fun thing to do with our afternoon: "Do the ends justify the means? I wonder..."
@@ER1CNOIR no, the message is to clearly a cautious tale against tyrant rulers. Those who thinks their cruel plans can be justified after getting outcome are dreamers who don't look at the tragedy at present timeline. They don't care about common masses because they aren't any special or of importance. World has already seen such rulers and the tragedy they brought on society. So what if Paul and Leto got successful in their plans? Their and their family whole life got ruined , so many people died in jihad. Were those people's life wasn't important? That's what is the philosophy of this story.
The more i know from the dune universe the more i see nietzsche in herberts writings, zarathustra was the the one that would set humans on the golden path to the ubermench
You can see many, many things in Franks writings. Nietzsche… the Bible and the Quran and religious ideologies rooted in Christianity. Anarchist political thought. The Art of War. Every time you read them you’ll catch on to something else
I agree, Dune is a (particular) reading of Nietzsche. I think there are other ways to read Nietzsche, but to me it seems likely that Herbert was translating his notions of Nietzsche into Dune (along with other influences, no doubt).
“Religion is the emulation of the adult by the child. Religion is the encystment of past beliefs: mythology, which is guesswork, the hidden assumptions of trust in the universe, those pronouncements which men have made in search of personal power, all of it mingled with shreds of enlightenment. And always the ultimate unspoken commandment is ‘Thou shalt not question!”
I think 'God Emperor of Dune' is the best of Frank Herbert's novels. I reached that opinion by reading the previous and subsequent books several times.
leto II was the great predator, who tried to remove the predatory nature of humanity by subjugating it to routine boredom. enforced tranquility. bread and circuses in a way. his breeding program's primary goal was to remove humanity from prescient vision. the depth of FH's novels still blows my mind 35 years after first reading dune. Frank Herbert - a true God among Men
ok.. i have a question... why is it so common to pronounce the name Harkonen like we are all Scottish??? Herbert made the first movie (admittedly in the First movie, it is intentionally made different as a stand alone since at the end Paul makes it rain on Arrakis wich would disrupt Spice production and harvesting making interstellar travel dangerous or impossible but it was still made by him) where he told us how to pronounce it, but every movie i have seen since agrees with your way... what have i mised???
There's an interesting letter I saw that Herbert wrote to a fan asking about the pronunciation of various words/names in the Dune books. He provided the fan with phonetic spellings so the pronunciations were very clear-and then ended the letter by saying, "This is just how I pronounce them. You can pronounce them however you like."
@@mbarker_lng I think he means that the Emperor of Man in 40k was, in some ways, modeled on Leto the God Emperor. So that you might instead say "The Emperor of Man in 40k has a lot in common with Leto" because he was partly inspired by Leto.
Nice vid! 👍 Tnx. I hope the book is not just a more sophisticated propaganda for the lot that likes to read between the lines, but even if it were so, the Dune will nevertheless remain one of my favorite novels.
He didn't fall in love with his sister.. it was somewhat sealing the attreides throne and he was also taking over the bene gesserit breeding program which means controlling the attreides genes through the offsprings of his sister as his body had started undergoing the sandtrout transformation
@@kylebraun8026 Well that's the impression I got from the information presented but still messed up why would you marry your blood relative to secure power?? Overall it's implying incestuous marriages, relationships and unions (bearing children) are allowed😑
@@waydebain9672 I mean…it’s an imperial feudal society, and aristocratic marriage is never about “love”, it’s about politics and consolidation. Leto was covered in sand trout, and would never in his life even be able to have sex anyway. You’re using a 2024 lenses, which is the wrong analysis. Besides, just read the book.
Leto II does not have a sexual relationship with his sister. He married her in name only to "keep the power in the family". It's also to protect his sister from plots from others. His sister takes the Corrino son as a concubine husband and has children with him. Leto II, throughout the millennia, uses his sister's progeny to create a line of humans who are invisible to "presight" or prescience as part of The Golden Path for humans to survive the future threat(s).
@NathanHigger tf is blue clues. i assumed superhuman leto would mark the decline of religious fervor/cosmic politic themes, cuz he can 1v9 civilizations uk. cant say for sure tho until i read the books. r u a fan of his
@@SandB Scratch that, after reading that mess, I am thinking Dora or Reading Rainbow for you my guy. Take it slow btw, don't want you to get burned out early and give up. Hang in there champ you will figure it out one day.
@@seditt5146 y not help me figure it out. I actually do wanna know ur guys thoughts on leto. The paul atreides stuff is cool because its hundreds of years of setup by the benegesserit/political rivalries, and is lowk relevant to our world. Ppl talk about the dangers of a savior figure and blind fervor. When leto becomes a god worm theres no conflict for a bazillion yrs. R u simply enamored by his pure wormliness
first trilogy was ok but once you create a god its downhill all the way, after first trilogy all gets a bit silly literally killer bimbo's from outer space
Agree with books 5 & 6. But I always saw God Emperor as a single book between 2 trilogies (if Herbert lived long enough to write book 7). It’s the book that holds the entire series together and my favorite of the series. I’ve read books 5 & 6 three times each and I still cant fully wrap my head around all of it. Too many shapeshifters, clones, bad faith actors, schemes-within-schemes from an entirely new cast of characters. I don’t even know all of the political factiins. Very confusing.
This book makes me sympathize with Alia. She didn’t ask to be born that way and I feel it was Jessica’s responsibility to help her not to become abomination. The kids helped each other but Alia was alone.
Alia didn't have Paul Muad'dib. How can you overcome the Baron without Muad'dib?
@VaeluX he still couldn't overcome them all. Even with paul
I agree. I felt bad for alia
You're supposed to feel that way. It's not a distinct or interesting take - it's just a simple observation that Alia is one of the most if not the most tragic characters. What you said is like saying "the books made me feel like the harkonnens were bad guys"... Like yeah... No kidding pal.
I agree. There's a part in children of dune when alia is arguing with the baron. In her mind and he starts giving her a headache. She says I'm just going to take a sedative and sleep.
Kinda find it funny that idaho was used as the barometer to see if the plan was on track
"Are we still on the path"
*Makes Idaho that then tries to kill him*
"This attempt on my life was slower than my liking perhaps we should go harder"
Leto 2 mashing the "Duncan" button on his Ghola Maker
“Hey, Ix… I’m uh.. gonna need another Duncan. Like, yesterday.”
@@ER1CNOIRwrong faction, it was the thuxalu
@@S_Warden arent they from ix too?
@@S_Warden wrong spelling but I know who you’re talking about lol
Leto is really a tragic figure; he gave up so much of himself, so much of who he _could_ have been, just so that a species which would hate him for all eternity might survive. No one gives thanks to the man who saved them, only praise to the God who they think was as cruel as he was powerful.
❤
Jessica was a really shitty mother when you think about it. Not exactly top tier as a grand mother either.
Paul, Alia and Leto, all deeply tragic characters that were ultimately alone.
she knows she's not convincing in her slow as hell reply when confronted by the duke about being a spouse and am other first or a bene gesserit, and they both know it's all too obvious.
To be fair, she is Harkonnen on her father's side.
While she's a horrible person in terms of morality, I do think a lot of her failures to protect or love her children and grandchildren came from the Bene Gesserit training and the botched trial by which she became a reverend mother. Her emotions were entirely obliterated by thousands of her predecessors, and her son basically chose to undergo the same process by which he abandoned his morals and emotions in the same ways. There's no way to be a Bene Gesserit and keep your humanity, as ironic as it is to say.
That's not surprising. She never got to the mourn her "husband". By the end of Dune, Paul had transformed into a monster, and Alia was already going through with her struggles.
well, not surprising since she was a space feminist like her other sisters aka bene geserits)
I blame the Bene Gesserit. They viewed human emotions as weakness and didn't plan on the possibility that maybe not everyone in their order would be a complete psychopath.
Almost everything wrong in Dune is the Bene Gesserits fault, lol
If it weren’t for the Bene Geserit being the way they are, there would be no Leto II.
If it weren’t for Leto II, humanity would never have survived the massive extinction event at the end times. So the Bene Geserit’s actions, for better or for worse, brought about the Golden Path.
It’s almost like it was meant to happen, so that humanity can escape the “oracle”, or more broadly, “determinism”.
Eh the Bene Gesserit mess up but they did good. Leto 2 whether he was sunder their control or not was their creation.
So his grand plan was being so bad that after he dies, humanity does exactly what he don't want them to do.... Which is what he wants them to do.
Just like a wise dad would do.
Didn't realize it till you put it that way. But it also makes sense.
Exactly. Be such a horrible tyrant for sooooo long that it gets ingrained in humanity’s DNA to never allow that to happen ever again.
When you are a god that can see across all of time, you don't make plans; you choose paths.
All according to plan!
I have to just say, you are the best Dune channel out here. The way you describe the story is excellent and in depth, yet concise. You capture the deeper details and add great commentary as well, thank you!
I don't think the golden path seeks to avoid Kalizek. It seeks to prepare humanity for it by allowing pockets to hide from the oracle. The path just continues. Leto does not know where it eventually goes. He sees that it does not end.
There is no avoiding it. Just surviving it.
I'm not a Dune expert, but I've read most of the novels over the years. Leto II is one of the strangest, and most memorable, of all of the characters. How would someone even attempt to make a movie of "God Emperor of Dune"? Daunting.
Ha ha, big worm man funny (he is the best tho)
Do it in 2 or 3 parts
@@rahvinkeaves7871 4 min or just don't do it
Villenueve is gonna end his trilogy in the first 2 books.
I really don't think its as hard as everyone always tries to make it seem if it were done in two parts. Yeah you're gonna have to have a lot of philosophy in there but theres plenty of action between the introduction chase, the couple rebellions from the face dancers and in the cities, plus Leto himself with the coming of the worm with Duncan and the constant fear in Moneo. On top of this you really just need it to follow Duncan, Nayla, and Siona a lot in part 1 and keep Leto's scenes and personal perspective tucked away for part 2. Maybe build on Duncan and Siona's grievances with the empire's stagnation and Leto II's actions in part one, then in two you receive much more nuance and his perspective on why he has taken this course of action. Just my thoughts
I feel like they've gone full circle.... achieving presience by breeding kwisatz haderach and completely throwing that away with looking for a mutation that nullifies prescience.
Probably the first video I've seen that comprehensively discusses and captures the many nuances of Leto and the Golden Path. Well done. Other times I've watched videos like this, I've usually felt, "It's not bad, but it missed some important thematic and conceptual issues." I don't think you left anything out. Bravo.
Everyone always forgets that the end DID justify the means and that sometimes it works out that way. Not that a person should strive for that, but the great are led by necessity, not choice. Herbert said as much many times and even holds your hand through the idea with Gurney and Geidi Prime…
To think that the quotes from the very beginning of both movies could be the god emperor reminiscing the past gives me chills. It sounds like an eldritch beast speaking
Gives me chills, too!
you mean that creepy "dream are from the deep..etc etc" sound? really?
I love this idea. I'm pretty sure in the movies it's Sardukar language both times. Of course Leto can speak Sardukar so still possible.
I now choose to believe this, because it’s fascinating to imagine.
Nah it’s just the throat singer
It's tragic that Leto could have just told all of humanity that they needed to follow his lead to avoid extinction but his psychic visons probably told him they wouldn't listen so he was forced to be a tyrant for "the greater good".
It's true that peoole in general hate being told what to do, I should know as someone that from a young age always went against authority.
Is no one worried that all of this was just propaganda? Every tyrant thinks they're doing what is necessary to take group to utopia and when utopia is on the line.. What wouldn't you do to get there lol
The invisibility to prescience just ends with the giant worm dude eating everyone one by one as they walk through a pair of doors unaware of what's on the other side
You go against authority because you've never been exposed to a healthy one.
In Dune Leto assumes that most people haven't, so he becomes what people are used to, just one that can't be rebelled against.
Follow what lead? The empire of Dune was fine with how it was for the 10,000 years it had been running. Why would people want to take risks and abandon their "safe" life they were already living. Leto had to rule like a Tyrant to drive humanity to evolve
@@AleksandarIvanov69I mean he didn't assume he saw what would happen with each decision
Just look at how Stilgar did not listen to what Paul was saying so that Paul finally decided to rather be the tyrannical messiah isntead.
My God man, your analysis is excellent, I have read this book many times and you have provided a stable framework for understanding Leto II as mine had only pieces in the puzzle.
I'm a massive fan of lore material. I have seen all the movies. I've listened to the Audiobooks of Frank Herbert's first Dune Novel, the Brian Herbert Atredies Novel and am currently listening to the Butlerian Jihad book. Frank Herbert is the superior writer and although I like the Dune universe, I have never been fully captivated by it. Fantastic video.
You should absolutely stop reading Brian books and you should read god emperoro of dune and then comment again
This is very well done! Thank you for the clear explanation of which makes everything fit nicely.
@adamcohen4864 well I am a newb so I cant disagree with you :)
Leto and the Sisterhood had Other Memory, so they pretty much understood human history. And the Sisterhood never did free itself from melange. They turned their homeworld, Chapter House, into a new DUNE, using sand trout to desiccate the landscape, and bring about a new generation of worms.
But their and the Guild's total dependence on Spice to perform their standard miracles kept them under control for millennia, and kept them from growing beyond a certain point.
What the Sisterhood lacked was the ability to access their male memories, so they only had half the story. Why exactly that is, from a metanarrative POV (why did Herbert choose this gendered asymmetry for his story?), is not really clear. In any case, lacking that access, they could neither free themselves nor establish the Golden Path. However, the Sisterhood provided a vital function, as you observe. They were the only ones besides Leto with a comparably long-term sense of things and the desire to shape humankind over millenia. Everybody else was just trying to shore up their own interests. The long-term thinking of the Bene Gesserit is realized in their breeding program, which Leto takes over/inherits from them (and of which he is a product), and which he subsequently bequeaths (back) to them on his death. Leto is, in some sense, the BG's success, although to succeed they had to fail. Leto (and beginning even with Paul before him) was the "break" in their plan that they sought but could not achieve because of their inability to access their male memories.
It find it so absurd how people just reduce all the later Dune lore to just being “where it gets weird” and write it off.
This shit is so powerful. It’s such a great representation of the reality that self sacrifice, sometimes even of what may feel like your own humanity is ultimately what will make you reach your full potential.
And on a much larger scale, the pitfalls of humanity; greed, power, image, these are the things that currently drive us. They are hopelessly woven into our DNA and if we allow them to, they will destroy us all.
It’s up for debate of course but such a poisonous way of life, from Dunes perspective, requires poison to cure it. Like the withdrawals from addiction, self discovery after a breakup or the tearing of muscle to promote growth, humanity needs to be painfully uprooted from its old ways to ensure its future.
The allegory of the god emperor is nothing short of absolute genius on frank herberts part. It may be weird but it makes you think in ways that can benefit you, the people around you and maybe even humanity as a whole.
It’s brilliant and that’s what science fiction is all about.
I just want dune to end after the scattering, the honoured matres imo was unnecessary
Wow, well said. You're exactly right
@@luckyabdurrahman1085It's just about showing the results
I think for most serious Dune fans, God Emperor is their favorite book in the series. It's certainly mine. I agree with your analysis, and also affirm that the book is weird as heck. Part of its charm, really, and not separate from the deep thinking it's doing, except maybe on a couple points.
Masterpiece of storytelling.
Appreciate it!
The idea of Siona Atreides being invisible to prescience was an inspiration for one of my own OCs - a guy who pilots a godly mecha, and is a very human-like son of the Lovecraftian god Yog-Sothoth. The OC is almost entirely human, but anyone attempting to view a world he is in from outside of time cannot see into it.
Also, I love Leto II and Hwi Noree's relationship. It's so wholesome.
Being cucked is wholesome 😂
Great video! The amount of research that goes into these is impressive.
You should do a video on the God-Emperor of Warhammer 40k. Quite different in nature, but with comparable goals and similar pre-eminence.
> no specifics mentioned of video (aka didn't watch)
> appeal to an irrelevant topic
They did mention that the God emperor of mankind from 40k is pretty different lol
I love Leto II's story. It's so interesting and unique. Definitely my favorite character in all of Dune.
Thanks for this history. I'm one who didn't read beyond the first 4 books, so I didn't know how the story ended. Appreciate all the time and effort you did on this video.
something about the 5th and 6th books is disjointed. Took multiple tries on book 5 and book 6 just chapter 1.
but I was only 18 or 19 too.
Thanks so much, glad you enjoyed!
Great video as always, lots of insights here. It's awesome to have you back.
In the book(s) Leto intentionally avoids looking to see where the path goes beyond just looking into the immediate future. The final example of this was his own death, which he did not forsee, in part because of the genes of Sonia Atreides, but also because he refused to use his power of prescient vision to form it into reality.
Fun Fact : Ghanima means Spoils of War in arabic
Its a bit neat when you think about it
@23:49, Shaitan in Arabic is the word for devil. Interesting to consider in the context of Leto.
It's same as Satan (shatan) and stein (rock), also roshe
All this happened because Jessica decided to have a son.
Great upload. Thanks man! Now Herbert's narrative doesn't seem to crazy👌
He also made sure to bring Duncan along for the ride. For reasons.
Paul will always be my fav but this guy is a veeeeeeeeeery close 2
Beautiful video. Thank you.
I guess it’s the ultimate “does the ends justify the means” question isn’t it? Which I don’t have the answer for, but we can all consider, would we be willing to suffer absolute tyranny now so our future ancestors could exist?
The very existence of our species, but I want my children to be able grow in freedom. It’s so fascinating
@@Wantabe2188that’s why Leto II had to do what he did and become a monster because he was the only one that could do it.
The answer is answered, and very thoroughly and succinctly:
The means are the ends, and must therefore justify themselves.
Ten thousand years and we still can't see nor understand. How many Duncans?
No one will ever convince me that the ends justify the means. Leto II, Ozymandias and others that think themselves the savior of Humanity by forcing cooperation through adversity are megalomaniacs who only consider their own views and who make grand decisions that concerns everyone consulting no one. This is probably the nihilistic in me talking also, but maybe Humanity's time is over? How many species have come and gone on this planet alone? Isn't hubris to think that our species *needs* to outlast its time, again and again? We're not special and our extinction is inevitable. And in reference to the books, attempting to change Dune's ecology (and inherently the Fremen culture from survival to climate changing) had catastrophic consequences. Going againts the natural course of things was wrong - Liet Kynes realized this in his moment of death - "The most persistent principles in the universe are accident and error". The Universe is indifferent to any planning, because we are ultimately inconsequent to Nature. And so, what is Leto doing? Forcing a change in Men by altering its ecology (religion, politics, economics, etc.). Wouldn't the result be just as catastrophic? Of course, in a book you can write whatever result you want, but in the real world, this wouldn't work, nor would it be acceptable.
Are you talking about Leto II or his brother, Leto II? I think they also had a couple of brothers, Daryl.
Very well done analysis.
Appreciate it
When I consider the way this story addresses the question of the ends justifying the means, there is something antithetical it achieves by taking this approach. To justify such actions, the ends must be apocalyptic. Would any moral person accept such great apparent (and in practice) evil, if it was not the singular path by which all of humanity might be saved? It even requires the certainty of prescience to bring us on this "moral" journey. I don't believe Herbert was acting as an apologist for the idea of ends justifying the means, but I'm not sure how others read it. I do think that we as humans have a predisposition to generalize from singular events, so I do think it's worth drawing attention to how many elements must be fulfilled before we can accept Leto's actions.
The story is about trying to cure ourselves of our addiction to letting other people make our decisions for us. This happens at the personal as well as the social/political level. Curing ourselves of this addiction may require some harsh measures to bring about mature acceptance of our own responsibilities, which are also our freedoms. To make your own choices means to take responsibility for everything that happens to you. That's scary and requires lots of effort on a moment to moment basis, so most people would rather just let someone else do all the deciding. Herbert wants us to see that we really have no choice in the matter: either we live our entire lives in an infantile state, or at some point we decide to take charge of ourselves.
The story, as an allegory, is told at the level of the species in some grand, as you say apocalyptic battle with exigence, but when it comes down to it, the real implications are in our daily lives, right now. We don't need to worry so much about the ends/means question, I don't think it's so central. What is central is "How much responsibility do I take for myself? Do I let others make decisions for me, either personally or politically? Am I a victim of my own irresponsibility? Am I enchanted by charismatic public figures who make promises about a magical world where all my wishes can be fulfilled? Do I buy into advertising pitches because they sell me an idea of myself as the kind of person I want to be instead of the kind of person I am?" And so on. This is where the "rubber meets the road" in terms of Herbert's deep existential, moral, and thematic work. This is where the story has real implications for our lives and is not just some empty fun thing to do with our afternoon: "Do the ends justify the means? I wonder..."
Was he the Kiwsatz Haderach?
Yes
Excellent breakdown and analysis..
Basically Frank Herbert’s philosophy in dune is heavily influenced by the Machiavellian philosophy, “the ends justify the means”..
More specifically, to be wary of tyrants who rule with that logic
@@Hoodges157but the end DID justify the means in the case of the Tyrant, the God Emperor.
@@ER1CNOIR no, the message is to clearly a cautious tale against tyrant rulers. Those who thinks their cruel plans can be justified after getting outcome are dreamers who don't look at the tragedy at present timeline. They don't care about common masses because they aren't any special or of importance. World has already seen such rulers and the tragedy they brought on society. So what if Paul and Leto got successful in their plans? Their and their family whole life got ruined , so many people died in jihad. Were those people's life wasn't important? That's what is the philosophy of this story.
@@Hoodges157exactly! Those who are saying that ends justify the means are clearly thinking opposite of what author wanted readers to think lol 😂
The end is another beginning for ever & ever..........
Outstanding. Thank you.
Turns himself into a damn worm. Craziest shit I’ve even seen. /s
Great video !!
I’M SO HAPPY!! The BEST Dune character!!
I wish more ppl included the 7th and 8th novels in these types of videos
The more i know from the dune universe the more i see nietzsche in herberts writings, zarathustra was the the one that would set humans on the golden path to the ubermench
You can see many, many things in Franks writings. Nietzsche… the Bible and the Quran and religious ideologies rooted in Christianity. Anarchist political thought. The Art of War. Every time you read them you’ll catch on to something else
Theology could take a chapter from Dunes. Star Wars visions is Dune's pass.
"I'm getting a lot of Disney Pixar's Cars vibes from this story" - Man who has only seen Disney Pixar's Cars
I agree, Dune is a (particular) reading of Nietzsche. I think there are other ways to read Nietzsche, but to me it seems likely that Herbert was translating his notions of Nietzsche into Dune (along with other influences, no doubt).
“Religion is the emulation of the adult by the child. Religion is the encystment of past beliefs: mythology, which is guesswork, the hidden assumptions of trust in the universe, those pronouncements which men have made in search of personal power, all of it mingled with shreds of enlightenment. And always the ultimate unspoken commandment is ‘Thou shalt not question!”
What a fascinating story!!
So, Leto Atreides the Second is more or less like Eren but with "would you still love me even if I was a worm" flavor.
I think 'God Emperor of Dune' is the best of Frank Herbert's novels. I reached that opinion by reading the previous and subsequent books several times.
Well done!
Appreciate your insights
Question, what happened to his clone in Chapter House?
leto II was the great predator, who tried to remove the predatory nature of humanity by subjugating it to routine boredom. enforced tranquility. bread and circuses in a way. his breeding program's primary goal was to remove humanity from prescient vision.
the depth of FH's novels still blows my mind 35 years after first reading dune.
Frank Herbert - a true God among Men
I started crying...jeasus...
He was so human and loved humanity so much, that he sacrificed his humanity to save humanity.
There is only one True Immortal God Emperor of Mankind. He sits Upon The Golden Throne of Holy Terra.
Lighten up Francis, it’s a book
@@bobbyaloma9214Dude, it's a 40k ref
The Emperor protects!
@@brianmclaren361 which, in itself is ah.....heavily "referencing" Dune :D
For the Emperor!!
Damn that was awesome!
Children of dune so far has been my favorite book
Have you read God Emperor yet???
@@ER1CNOIR no I’m almost done with children
Haramothep was a pharos of Egypt
Love it! I enjoy all your content but i have a personal soft spot for Dune.
thank you for the video: picture & storytelling
👍
Do you guys see another movie coming? Or is this all over...
Get me another Duncan!
Is it better that do much is subconscious? That so much of what we may sense stays hidden unless vital to immediate survival?
ok.. i have a question... why is it so common to pronounce the name Harkonen like we are all Scottish??? Herbert made the first movie (admittedly in the First movie, it is intentionally made different as a stand alone since at the end Paul makes it rain on Arrakis wich would disrupt Spice production and harvesting making interstellar travel dangerous or impossible but it was still made by him) where he told us how to pronounce it, but every movie i have seen since agrees with your way... what have i mised???
There's an interesting letter I saw that Herbert wrote to a fan asking about the pronunciation of various words/names in the Dune books. He provided the fan with phonetic spellings so the pronunciations were very clear-and then ended the letter by saying, "This is just how I pronounce them. You can pronounce them however you like."
@@justinhowe3878 very pc
Thanks!!
Species are stagnant till stressed - mutation/evolution/revolution.
(Edit 09/05/24 for clarity) The Emperor of Man in WH40K seems to have a lot of Leto's traits.
It's the other way around...😅
@@kwinn00 Dune was released in 1965. Rogue Trader (the precursor to WH40k) was released in 1987. So I am not sure where you are coming from.
@@mbarker_lng I think he means that the Emperor of Man in 40k was, in some ways, modeled on Leto the God Emperor. So that you might instead say "The Emperor of Man in 40k has a lot in common with Leto" because he was partly inspired by Leto.
@@justinhowe3878 True. I'll update the semantics to make it more clear.
this would be the most awesome Dune film of all time...but I dont think anybody can pull it off yet...
It's nice to hear non-butchered pronunciations of character names.
I love the Southpark easter eggs 🤣
oh no!!! a stone burner!!! Everyone get into my No-ship!
Matre =Mater, just as theatre = theater.
he did what with his sister ???
I believe he married her purely for legal reasons. He didn’t have sexual relations with her
This is a really morbid story.
"BEEFSWELLING"
The God Emperor form Warhammer would squash this oversized worm
Way cool.
This is for book worms only
He wasnt that bad
“Humankind,” lol.
i was wondering who did ghanima had a child with?
Farad'n Corrino
Siona should have black hair
Nice vid! 👍
Tnx.
I hope the book is not just a more sophisticated propaganda for the lot that likes to read between the lines, but even if it were so, the Dune will nevertheless remain one of my favorite novels.
What does this even mean lol
Warning spoilers, dune ahead
Idk I feel like he was kinda mean
Was Leto II Leloch Vi Britannia and Eren Yeager before they were a thing?
Yup. Managed to outdo both of them since his actions were felt by entire galaxies.
@srichael2713 Now I need confirmation that the creator of code geass and Hajime Isayama read Dune.
@@returnedtomonkey8886 High possibility. Dune is well-known after all
♥
Damn, warhammer really did copy everything. They just made it less wormy
It's funny how you have to pit spoiler warning on a book. seriseas started in 1963.
👌👌👌
Im fiening for some damn content on here... And im gonna get my fix from ur channel...
Don't do drugs
Love the story...but are we really going to look over that the guy fell in love with and married his own TWIN SISTER!?!?😰😱🤢🤮
He didn't fall in love with his sister.. it was somewhat sealing the attreides throne and he was also taking over the bene gesserit breeding program which means controlling the attreides genes through the offsprings of his sister as his body had started undergoing the sandtrout transformation
What are you talking about? They married to consolidate imperial power, and they certainly loved each other, but why do you think they were *in* love?
@@kylebraun8026 Well that's the impression I got from the information presented but still messed up why would you marry your blood relative to secure power?? Overall it's implying incestuous marriages, relationships and unions (bearing children) are allowed😑
@@waydebain9672 I mean…it’s an imperial feudal society, and aristocratic marriage is never about “love”, it’s about politics and consolidation. Leto was covered in sand trout, and would never in his life even be able to have sex anyway. You’re using a 2024 lenses, which is the wrong analysis. Besides, just read the book.
Leto II does not have a sexual relationship with his sister. He married her in name only to "keep the power in the family". It's also to protect his sister from plots from others. His sister takes the Corrino son as a concubine husband and has children with him. Leto II, throughout the millennia, uses his sister's progeny to create a line of humans who are invisible to "presight" or prescience as part of The Golden Path for humans to survive the future threat(s).
leto becoming a superhuman is kinda dumb
@NathanHigger do u have one in mind. Avatar and arcane r good
@NathanHigger tf is blue clues. i assumed superhuman leto would mark the decline of religious fervor/cosmic politic themes, cuz he can 1v9 civilizations uk. cant say for sure tho until i read the books. r u a fan of his
@@SandB Scratch that, after reading that mess, I am thinking Dora or Reading Rainbow for you my guy. Take it slow btw, don't want you to get burned out early and give up. Hang in there champ you will figure it out one day.
@@seditt5146 y not help me figure it out. I actually do wanna know ur guys thoughts on leto.
The paul atreides stuff is cool because its hundreds of years of setup by the benegesserit/political rivalries, and is lowk relevant to our world. Ppl talk about the dangers of a savior figure and blind fervor. When leto becomes a god worm theres no conflict for a bazillion yrs. R u simply enamored by his pure wormliness
The Duna saga can be summarized by the old saying that women ruin everything.
Tomake the film good 5;25 has to happen ... we will not be CNN'd .... jk ... HWood will milkit if they can
Im really liking your videos, Brody.
first trilogy was ok but once you create a god its downhill all the way, after first trilogy all gets a bit silly literally killer bimbo's from outer space
Agree with books 5 & 6. But I always saw God Emperor as a single book between 2 trilogies (if Herbert lived long enough to write book 7). It’s the book that holds the entire series together and my favorite of the series.
I’ve read books 5 & 6 three times each and I still cant fully wrap my head around all of it. Too many shapeshifters, clones, bad faith actors, schemes-within-schemes from an entirely new cast of characters. I don’t even know all of the political factiins. Very confusing.