Lugers Under Versailles: The 1926 Simson P08
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ต.ค. 2024
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Simson & Co of Suhl was chosen as the sole contractor legally allowed to manufacture and rework military small arms for the German military under the Versailles treaty. They acquired the P08 Luger tooling from the Erfurt arsenal, and began small volume P08 production in 1925. They would product just under 12,000 pistols total between 1925 and 1934. The first 600 were made with 1925 chamber dates, and the first 100 or so in 1926 were also dated, but then the markings changed to a blank chamber for the rest of the production run. These were all Army and police pistols, with no commercial production.
This particular example is an interesting outlier, with a 1926 chamber date but a serial number (424) that should be in 1925. It is likely that this gun was set aside for quality control reasons (it also has an RC stamp on the frame) and not completed and marked until early 1926.
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The Simson brand survived until the 1990s as the moped maker of East Germany. Many of their famous "Simson Schwalbe" mopeds are still in use today.
Quite good too, given what the Soviets permitted East Germany to make.
Given that they were from east germany, where any kind of civilian technology product was already updated before even being introduced in the market, this is impressive
And don't forget the S50/51! They are arschteuer today. :D
@@rrphantom8194 Simson Mopeds are really still quite sought after in Europe (especially Germany). They’re not only build very sturdily, but they’re exceptionally easy to repair (or tune) and very reliable, and spare parts are still manufactured by another company that also build GDR mopeds (MZA). Now the main reason that they’re still so popular in Germany is the fact they’re allowed to go faster than regular 50ccm mopeds are in Germany. The reason for that is that the GDR allowed 50ccm to go up to 60 km/h, while west Germany only allowed them to go up to 45 km/h (which it still does). When the Berlin Wall fell and Germany unified, there was a legitimate concern for thousand of these mopeds that became worthless overnight since you couldn’t operate them on west German roads. So the German government created a exception, and to this day only GDR 50ccm mopeds are allowed to drive up to 60km/h while non-GDR mopeds are only allowed to go up to 45km/h. Fun fact: any vehicle that has the capability to drive at least 60km/h is allowed onto the autobahn, so Simson mopeds are technically the only two stroke 50ccm vehicles that are perfectly legal to use on the Autobahn (which would be next to suicidal, but can be fun in a group, we did it once for about 5KM with our Simsons and I was 99% sure I’d die)
@@nickrollstuhlfahrerson8659 Not quite true on the Autobahn part: You have to do more than 60 to be allowed on it, while the S50 goes 60. So, no, you cant legally drive it on the Autobahn, and it would be suicidal to do so anyway.
From small farming machines, to Lugers and AKs, to being the GDRs largest motorbike manufacturer, to being bankruped by the fall of the Berlin wall and iron curtain. Simsons company history would make a great ‘forgotten company’ video.
its far from forgotten. suhl was rich because of the simson brothers. west germany pushed simson into bankrupcy litery havin workers destroy parts and maschines
Thank you for your comments, I had just asked whether it was related to Simson Motorcycles and then I noticed your comment.
Lpp
Wait, this Simson is basically the same Simson that my cousin uses to ride around his village? Small world...
@@DitzyClouds Yeah it’s a shame that Simson isn’t around anymore..
Even after all these years, I'm surprised that Ian still thinks we might actually get bored listening to an entire history of a gun
"He could read the phonebook, and make it sound... interesting."
-Morgan Freeman
"He could read the phonebook, and make it sound... interesting."
-Morgan Freeman
Yes, Ian is a silly boy.
Considering C&Rsenal videos often run for more than an hour, and occasionally need to be split into two parts, there is clearly a demand for such content.
It was the opposite of dull ian. We love listening to this stuff
Hear, hear!
Fun Fact: Simson, J.P. Sauer & Sohn, Walther, C.G. Haenel and many more weapon/gunsmith factorys were founded in Suhl solely because of the high-quality iron found in the region around Suhl. At this time steel quality was heavily depending on the quality of the raw iron it was made from and so many gunsmiths have settled there in order to have the best steel for their barrels. If you one day happen to find yourself in Suhl, I recommend visiting the ‚Suhler Waffenmuseum‘ (weapon museum of Suhl), it contains many informations about the history of this region which has given birth to many important companies.
Its sad how many of the weaponmakers went extinct due to soviet occupation
@@gunrelatedvids It is true that many companys were regulated to the ground under soviet occupation and many of their production capacities were taken as repair payments and sent to the USSR. It was also due to the gun laws in east germany that there was only a small civilian market. But some of the companys were founded again later or survived the time of the German seperation. Unfortunatley tho Simson didn't survived the privatization of the VEB Ernst Thälmann, which it was part of while the DDR lasted.
The Simson family story here ended badly, but not nearly as badly as I thought it would at the beginning. That's .... somewhat positive
If, 'OK we'll take everything you have and you get to continue to live because we aren't really paying attention yet' is somewhat positive, then my definition of "somewhat" needs revising
@@benalla39 compared to what I expected the story's ending to be, yeah it's somewhat positive
@@Tfaonc same here, I was expecting an "accident" of some sort to happen to them.
Yeah, when Ian said it was a Jewish family in the 1920s and 30s, I was expecting something way more tragic.
@@benalla39 I'd say the Simsons got off pretty well, keeping their freedom and lives and whatnot 🤷♂️
Was on a range back in the 80s when the range safeties identified a worn out barrel on an M249 SAW.
As a demonstration so we would know if ours became worn out they linked about 15 rounds of tracer and fired it from the center of the firing line.
Went everywhere like a bad Roman candle.
It is always interesting when so much history comes with a firearm.
Yeah I thought it was strange Ian would suggest we might find it dull. Super interesting! Especially with how the company's fortunes mirrored the themes of the war and postwar period.
It is always cool how much of a history lesson you can get by looking at the events around the tools of war.
There is always history, it is just a question of if it is known.
Ian, Forgotten Weapons and the word dull are not synonymous. You bring light to stories that most of us would never come across otherwise. Your work is a treasure.
Would be cool to see a video on the 1960s Mauser American eagle Lugers imported by interarms. Nice little niche Luger.
Forgotten Weapons has covered those before. Back in 2014, I believe
I think those were the original American eagles from the 20s. The interarms were made by Mauser in the 60s & 70s . I have one in my grandmothers estate with a 6 inch barrel and thought it would be cool to learn a bit more about it like witch tooling was used, production numbers, etc.
Likewise, I wonder which set of tooling was used to make those later stainless steel Lugers from Mitchell and other companies.
The video wasn´t dull at all. Such videos are the reason why I love this channel.
Biggest 50ccm Cycle factory in the GDR. Had a 1977 Simson S50 from hunting weapon factory Simson Suhl.
They are really nice 50s. Had a S51
Ian... you could present the development and history of an obscure Elbonian carpet manufacturer and I'd still feel entertained and enlightened!
You mean like the Torkevii Bros. Carpet Co. ?
@@Oblithian Exactly! The amount of sheer bad luck they had, and the amount of government corruption involved in their financial demise would make for a fantastic tale if Ian presented it! :P
Especially if they sold the purported flying ones to the Elbonian Air Force.
Just taking a minute to appreciate how much damn history Ian is about to find about the most obscure topics. This guy is an absolute maniac!
Don't worry Ian, your videos are never dull. If anything we love the extra tidbits of history about the factories and designors when possible.
Not dull at all!
As an eastern German i find storys like that very informative.
Keep up the good work!
Ian, I grew up in New Orleans- a pretty old city as US cities go. It's full of standing buildings and bits and pieces of the 400 year history of the place. I was always very enchanted by those stories. One day, I saw a ship mounted cannon, thought to be from the Battle of New Orleans. Very much like that Simson Luger- both the gun itself and the greater history of the Simson family and brand. That kilo or so of metal in your hands contained about a metric tonne of history. Awesome!
I grew up a couple hours from there. History is never dead in that city. They have a respect and love of it like few places in America. The WWII Museum is a prime example.
@@5roundsrapid263 And that is just the current history. FR
Damn. I always start one of your vids and think, "oh, this won't be interesting *this time*" and end up watching the whole thing. I really like how you interweave history with engineering and don't shy away from unpleasant times in our collective history while still keeping it focused on the gun engineering.
Well done as always, mate.
History background is really making common guns into relics on their own. Love this kind of videos.
Interesting? It's fascinating!
A couple of things especially interest me about Lugers and some other arms from that time period. One, they were still considered "ordinary" military weapons (in some places) well after they became collector's items, which might also be said of the SIG P210. Some firearms become collector's items while still in production. Supposedly Lugers were used by the Norwegian army until replaced by Glocks.
Another thing is both the clever design of the Luger, also true of some other turn of the century firearms as well as the workmanship and finish, at least of some of them. And by the way, I thought that Vickers and maybe FN made a few Lugers.
All Luger tooling came from Erfurt, they also proof marked the Lugers in accordance of the Imperial military procedures/instructions on marking and positioning of these markings/proofs. The only two Luger manufacturers that followed these instructions exactly even though Simson obviously were making/repairing in the Weimar era. Thanks Ian.
As far as I know, Simson continued to produce a bunch of high-quality two-wheelers and hunting rifles in between the 1950s und 90s. For example their Drillings (a hunting rifle with three barrels) where a popular export product (which was not unimportant to the GDR, due the fact that they used their own currency). Simson was public protery to the GDR (East Germany). After the re-unification 1990, several modernizing attempts where made; they continued to produce stuff like mopeds, but I think they vastly disappeared during the early 2000s.
So the brandname "Simson" or "Simson & Suhl" did not fully vanish after the war, their products still have kind of a cult status within germany, as I can imangine.
Huh. I saw a few drillings in the US, local gun store had a crazy collection. The idea interests me, but those particular guns were in very unusual calibers.
As a german viewer, I like your presentation.
I was born in Thuringia, and everybody there knows Simson Suhl. They also made lot's of small airguns during the GDR period, and the most famous 50ccm motorcycle in the World.
Thank you for the video.
Still the best history channel on the tubes. Thank you Ian for the great content.
Gun history, yes, definitely. But in more general history, "Modern History TV" is pretty awesome, too. Different content, more about medieval knights, swords and stuff.
Very interesting company history. One of my fathers favorite shotguns was an interwar Simpson. The detail on the family/company history brought that home a little more. Thank you.
Another great and diverse Luger presentation. Thank you Ian.
Hey there, Suhl is located in Southern Thuringia, and therfore right in the middle of Germany, not Southern Germany.
Simson does not exist anymore as a company, but almost every German knows the Name.
Nowadays Simson is known in Germany mostly for the mopeds S50, S51 A and B and the Schwalbe (Sparrow). These were manufactured in the GDR and are considered to be best mopeds ever been made in Germany at all.
Simson has always been an outstanding company and is one big loss during the reunification.
Thanks for this great Video teaching me something new about my home region!
Greatings from Weimar in Thuringia
Gunsmith: “Ok, where do you want your serial markers?”
Simson Luger: “YES!”
Wow, that joke format sure isn't getting old or annoying!
@@JohnsonLobster No, never. Reading the same thing a million times is so much fun.
Ian's goatee and 'stache always make him look he's a time-traveled Union officer or something.
I am a bit of a gun nut myself, and this is exactly what I want, expect, and hope for in the future, the full history, manufacturing process, every name attached, it’s all what I’ve come to know and love from you, please keep it up!
my grandpa worked for Simson, cool to hear more about that company
Suhl is locatatet more in the middle of Germany, which was still under prussion territory. South Germany was more like Bavarian act. Fun fact: during GDR which also included Suhl, there where the popular SIMSON motorbikes produced...
Jagdwaffenwerk Suhl or hunting weapon factory Suhl in English was stamped on the registration plate of all Simson cycles.
A liter of coffee and a video of Forgotten Weapons. Perfect to start a Saturday
This is exactly the kind of video that I find incredibly satisfying!
Thanks for starting the day off right!
Steve1989MREInfo needs to upload more regularly...
All the little historical details I learn in here. Thanks Boss🤘 Good Fortunes
I have a 1914 Erfert. It is really a beautifully designed firearm. You can tell the pride that was taken into making them. You could probably make videos until you retire on all the different models, variants and manufactures of it. I'm envious of all the fun things you get to do and see. Keep up the good work, Ian.
I will listen to you talk about lugers and history any time. Not dull at all
Not remotely dull! Of all your videos, this is my favourite type - educational, informative and historical. Thank you.
A detailed list of Luger tooling sets! At last!
8.82 mm = 0.347" diam. Sounds a little small for groove diam for a 9.02 mm (nominal 0.355") bullet diam. I believe the CIP spec is 8.82 mm (as you initially said) for the land-to-land, bore diam. :)
This was absolutely fascinating, I learned so much in this video, thanks for furthering my education, as always .. Your videos are such a pleasure to watch and so educational.
Blessed are the followers of GJ.
the company headquarters of HAENEL is also in Suhl... and a really nice museum about firearms
Suhl is a medium sized city in the middle of Germany. The city and the region surrounding it has been a centre of weapon manufacture for hundreds of years.
It still is. Merkel producing hunting rifles there since 1898.
You had me going for a minute. At 9.24 you talk about an aluminum folower but can't see the folower! I figured out that you were talking about the floor plate. I agree with the majority that the story of the company is as interesting (if not more so) than the Luger itself.
I would enjoy a forgotten weapons video about the Jewish German family that owned a toy making company and produced Sten magazines in England during WW2. Their manufacturer stamp was a 6 point star of David. I have one of these magazines in my collection. Great video! Yall take care and be safe, John
NOT "terribly dull", this is AWESOME! ...more like this! plz
I'm not sure why but there's something hilarious about a small hat being able to manufacture a Luger.
the merchants guild never stops a good sale lmao
I found this fascinating, and it highlights a point had never before considered - the tooling that makes a gun.. Great vid, Ian.
I remember reading somewhere that some of the early Transformers toys have never been reissued because Hasbro lost the moulds, or the moulds degraded and were too expensive to replace. It's odd to think of the same thing happened to firearms.
Is this the same Simson factory that wound up making Scooters in the GDR ?
I think so
@@briarholstein168 checked it out. Apparently it is!
pls dont call them scooters! its disgacefull to simson! they are mopeds or krad
@@DitzyCloudssorry, but I'm pretty sure the correct English term is "scooter".
@@KonradSeverinHilstad nope even in englisch its called moped. scooters are those rice cookers on wich you sit like taking a shit and only drive like 45
Not dull at all, thank you.
I really enjoy the history and backstory of firearms. Not a dull video at all.
Probably took more time to proof stamp it than to build it.
Stuff like this that has a personal element in it is particularly interesting. Thanks Ian.
Very interesting history behind this pistol I had not heard of this company before but Gustloff Werke is a familiar term.
Always love to see interesting lugers.
great video Ian, love when you go in to the history like you did here.
I love learning the History of various guns. Ian you never present it in a boring or uninteresting way. This channel thrives on the history of a gun, thats why most of us are here.
I really like the backstories of the guns. Another interesting video, thank you.
crazy the effect this pistol has on people when they get to see or better yet hold one. a firearms icon if there ever was one and I admit i knew very very little about the simpson lugers
I actually owned one about 20 years ago, unfortunately some asshat nickel plated it ruining the collection value. Was one hell of a shooter thought.
Well this is a good way to start a Saturday morning.👍
Not dull at whatsoever. I was especially pleased to hear the Simpson family made an escape to the US.
Very educational. Thanks Ian.
"Hans we need to make it more complicated so we can stamp more numbers!"
The old Simson factory in suhl is close in my neighborhood
Thank you , Ian .
What a beautiful gun. Its like a piece of rare art.
Simson Suhl... in the town I was born in ^^
They also have a nice firearms and motorcycle museum there
Been there, seen them. Have to agree.
Might be cool to visit. Though I wish I knew where my Family lived, so there would be a bigger reason to explore the country.
Happy to say I've visited. My mom's from Suhl too.
Cool, thanks mate. Really enjoyed this one as I'm a bit of a Luger fan.
Very interesting about the tooling on the Luger
A very eclectic and rare pistol variation? Looking forward to seeing it in fireplace guys collection
One of my first motorbike come from simson-shul, AVO,thank you!
The history of arms really is the history of the world.
Interesting that there was only 4 sets of tooling for Luger production. Now I'm curious about whose tooling was used by Mauser for the manufacturer of my 1935 dated P08.
I have no particular interest in Lugers, but I still like to watch these videos, because there is always some interesting information to show up. Today, my mind has been blown by learning that there were only 4 sets of machine tools made to produce all Lugers ever made.
"What's good enough for other folks, ain't good enough for me and my RC..."
Not dull, Ian. I come here for the history, since I'm too thick to understand the mechanical stuff. ^_^
It would be really cool to see an example of early 20th century production machines as set up to manufacture a particular model. Today it is all CNC machining centers but back in the day it was a lot of different machines set up to run one thing and one thing only.
Interesting history of Simson and Co.
What I find slightly surprising is that all of the serial numbers and markings seem to all appear to be hand-stamped, rather than roll-stamped, being either slightly crooked (like "1926" isn't exactly perpendicular to the long axis of the pistol) or the letter-spacing slightly uneven (EG: the the "SIMSON & Co, SUHL" mark on the toggle).
I did find this interesting and not too terribly dull.
Never dull! Come for the guns, stay for the history.
This is perfect I just watched your early auto pistols video!
not dull at all, thanks Ian.
It’s always interesting. Every time there’s something interesting.
Very interesting history behind that P08 and the Simpson' company.
I still have a scooter from Simson Suhl. Made in the GDR. The KR 51/2L is great!
Do you happen to know when it was built?
fascinating story (and we all love a good story). Technology, business, politics, geography, and history interacting in complicated ways. I mean, they always do, especially for guns, but this little pistol at the nexus of events is indeed a loaded artifact, if you'll excuse the pun. In isolation it's "just another Luger", and probably not the best example mechanically, if some part of it is barely within tolerance. But in the context in which you place it, it has a weight and power (and tragedy) far beyond its physical dimensions. Anyway, thanks.
I very recently bought a k98k built at gustloff-werke, crazy to hear about the origins of that factory in this video! I feel personally tied to that P08 now in a way
This was fascinating, thank you for the research.
This Video went well with my breakfast. Thanks!
This pistol itself is a library of Weimar period inspection stamps.
Ian, please make a video on the Luger design principles.
You might feel you have done, but I cannot find it after searching for and watching half a dozen of your Luger videos, starting from your earliest, including that on the Borchardt.
What I am missing is so obvious, you might not have noticed you haven't covered it---what is with that bizarre looking operating system? Why is it good? How does it improve recoil, feed, accuracy, heck, you know. Even the "first Luger" video did not explain what Luger actually did with that huge Borchardt spring. You explain these things so very, very well; I hope you will, for me. :)
Or, anyone, where is the video I missed, with apologies.
Are there any historical photographs of how these guns were made? What did the machine tools look like in that era? Maybe a video of forgotten tools for making guns?
Happy ANZAC day everyone! :)
We celebrate it tomorrow.
Sitting in my garden next to my Simson Schwalbe and enjoying this Video :D
Not dull at all, Ian. I rather enjoy the back story, as it were, of the firearms, particularly the older ones. Four sets of tooling; if you'd asked me I would have guessed quite a bit higher considering how ubiquitous the gun was for so long. Please consider doing more of the progeny and history of weapons. Don't make Othais jealous, though. ;- )
my uncle did own a Simson... but different "type" of Simson :-D green Simson S51 50cc bike
Gustlov was murdered by a guy named Frankenfurter in 1936 with a .25 caliber Velo Dog type revolver.
Nice pistol! Great Video!
Bedtime speculation: it would make sense that a small player might get these types of contracts during the time period since anyone who did might be required to undergo heightened foreign scrutiny, and they'd want the big players to work on the stuff they shouldn't have been.
I do not have a single fact to back this up though.
Makes sense. It is Weimar Germany were everyone is trying to dodge and pull wool over the Allies' eyes over military things...
I remember reading that Junkers set up a factory in the Soviet Union during the 1920s as a way of dodging the Versailles treaty. I think Sweden also built some tanks for Germany in the same period. I wonder if there was a factory somewhere in the Urals churning out Mausers for the Weimar police.
Spread the knowledge
Lugers Under Versailles is my new band name