Politicians Ruin Everything: Dutch Luger Trials
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ต.ค. 2021
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The Dutch military started looking for semiauto pistols to replace its aging revolvers around 1899. They tested all the early models; the Roth, Borchardt, Mauser and Mannlicher - and then they obtained a Borchardt-Luger (aka, a Parabellum, or Luger). They first tested a long-barreled model with shoulder stock for artillery crews in 1901. The guns performed very well mechanically, but the officers in charge were dubious about the utility of the gun.
In 1903, another set of trials was run by the Infantry, this time on short-barreled Lugers in both 9mm and 7.65mm. In addition, the Dutch requested a number of special changes to a subset of their guns - this "Dutch Model" was to have Dutch markings and a stronger coil mainspring designed by the Dutch ordnance department. That coil mainspring would be adopted by DWM and became the most significant improvement in the New Model Lugers.
Anyway, the 1903 trials were concluded with much success in 1905, and the Dutch War Minister happily adopted the Luger in 9mm. He wrote out an order to start getting the Army new modern pistols...only to be overridden by the Dutch Parliament. They decided that the new guns were basically too dangerous, and cancelled the adoption. This left the Army in a rather unexpected lurch, and they had to restart production of revolvers in 1906 to make up the shortages in handguns.
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Truth. And as Eugene Stoner found out, generals count as politicians, too.
Speaking of which... Weren't the first run of AR-10's produced by a Dutch manufacturer, only to get shut down because the Dutch politicians didn't like the idea of producing guns for the US army?
"It needs the thumb diddly do, just incase ya know, we want to fire it anyway after something causes it to stay out of battery"
The Generals are usually the Worst politicians…because they usually only care about their next promotion. However some, are only interested in winning and killing the enemy…like Patton. Unlike today’s lilly-livered generals like Milley. What a horse’s @$$ he is.
@@PrototypeSpaceMonkey No,Hembrug had a contract with Portugal, the Portugese used them (liked them very much) in the kolonial wars. The Dutch government didn't liked that and forbid exports...The U.S. were building the m 14 at that time...
@@PrototypeSpaceMonkey AFAIK the first 50 were made by ArmaLite themselves, most if not all of the rest were made by the Dutch company Artillerie Inrichtingen. Artillerie Inrichtingen eventually ceased production in 1961 due to export restrictions and lack of large sales.
So the Dutch actually just helped the Germans to improve the Luger...
Quite a story!
Well that sure ended up biting us Dutch people in the behind.
But composer Richard Wagner wrote decades before plane invention the opera ,The flying Dutchman'.
It's not the first time that happened, when the Dutch got licensed production of AR-10's at Artillerie Inrichtingen (AI) Hembrug they made considerable improvements on the design which were eventually incorporated into the design by Stoner and Armalite. Sadly it was precisely this rifle who ended up killing AI Hembrug, there wasn't enough interest and orders for it while they had paid a lot for the license which they never wanted in the first place but got forced through by the US.
@@WH250398 A spring in a handgun probably didn't make a difference.
@@brittakriep2938the flying Dutchman refers to a ghost ship
Arbitrary and nonsensical arguments made to justify something. That sounds exactly like most politicians.
Incompetence or ignorance, maybe a horrible combination of both. Quality hallmarks for a politician. /s
@@andrehashimoto8056 what the fuck are you talking about? The shooting on set had nothing to do with politics. Just a bunch of negligence
Ian: I promise I won't get political
Ian after a few drinks: this
to be fair, he's railing against Dutch politicians from 1905 so not super-topical.
@@rogerborg Nice.
@@SandyofCthulhu baby steps
@@SandyofCthulhu speak for yourself, in my household we discuss the intricacies of Dutch parliamentary politics from the years 1898 to 1908 over dinner every night, sometimes it gets heated, I haven’t spoken to my mother directly in 6 weeks.
Of course I’m kidding, why did you even read this?
@@SandyofCthulhu Fancy seing you here Sandy
The magazine anecdote actually makes a lot of sense, these guys were probably used to rifle ammo being delivered in stripper/enbloc clips, so you HAVE to order the right amount proportional to ammunition quantity.
I was a soldier for 21 years, mainly as a mechanic. Trust me, your logic is good, but doesn't always fit the... umm.. mindset of the military supply system, they often just don't think outside the box they're used to being in.
Examples..
Once I needed replacement re-enforced hose to repair a steam cleaning unit. I needed about 5 meters worth. The Q-store saw the "unit of issue" was "meter" and dutifully cut the obtained single 5 meter hose into 5 one meter lengths for me. How thoughtful.
I needed half a dozen 100mm brushes (paint brushes, but we used them for part cleaning), received 24 25mm brushes instead, cos it added up to the same thing.
When you order ammo, I believe it's per round regardless of how it's used (clip, belt, card, single etc) so you would just order the total amount needed, and not worry about the way it was assembled for use. The L1A1 "SLR" for example had it's 7.62 NATO ammo turn up as either "loose" rounds in a steel ammo box, or assembled into 5 round "stripper clips" for use with a magazine filler, but could be specifically requested as a belt for the GPMG (M60 or later MAG58)
As a Dutch guy, I'm hardly surprised by our goverment cheaping out of something useful...
Dutchie as well, not surprised at all lmao.
@@1EnZBosS1 sounds as our government...
In the USA, going "dutch" on a meal out is a term for splitting the bill. But can overwhelmingly be perceived as being cheap.
I guess the old statement stands: if the klompen fit.
@@SlavicCelery The copper wire is invented by two Dutch guys fighting over a coin ;)
And yes Ian believe it or not there is nothing changed in 115 years, not one bit
Another great example of why people shouldn't be making decisions pertaining to things they know little about.
I recall a recent election...
@@3ducs ...here in Canada...we just saw the effect of 36% of the vote putting a woke government in charge who now are appointing a former Greenpeace radical who did jail time for his activities in charge of our energy industry.....
That counts out all the politicians in the world.
Well... In fairness, the 9mm cartidge does indeed have a tendency to over-penetrate due to its high velocity. A problem that, ironically, the bigger .45 ACP didn't and doesn't have (as it flys at a much slower velocity). Nevertheless though, it was still a dumb decision to drop the luger and especially in wartime.
@@TheWolfsnack Bad things are being done in Canada. It is endemic to the world.
So, Politicians make a ruling on a subject they clearly have not even a basic understanding of?
Huh, sounds familiar……
*cough* liberals *cough*
@@ishitrealbad3039 woah there Benito, Democracy isn’t perfect and neither is communism but both are preferable to Fascism
@@ishitrealbad3039 so what would you propose? Feudalism? The fucking caste system? I’ll take a democratic republic over all of those options. Also a dictatorship is a dictator ship, like how China masquerades as communist when it’s essentially run by despotism.
As a Dutch citizen, I can confirm we've held up this tradition up to this day... We've got a teacher leading the pandemic policies, not one for biology either... To say he's out of his depth in his post would be like saying an elephant is heavy...
Speaking of: Theres going to be a decition in the EU-Parliament about destroying E2EE on all mesengers.
I have a feeling that Signal will be banned next year...
It is very interesting how the Dutch Politicians apparently thought that the 9mm Luger Cartridge was more dangerous than their Rifle Cartridge.
It may have been a kolonial, they had been fighting Muslims in Atjeh for years at that time in the jungle or closed terain. They would be rushed upon, so im guessing in hand to hand they didnt do a lot of shooting with their rifles, the kolonial army were known for their klewang sabers. If you get jumped and everyone starts shooting in melee, overpenetration could be a problem i gues.
"because it would overpebetrate and hit an ally behind the enemy!"
only a politician would ever believe an ally would be conveniently standing directly behind an attacking enemy to get hit by a round that punched through said enemy and magically didn't get its trajectory wildly changed by the magic of terminal ballistics
To be fair, there are like 6 words in your comment that a typical politician doesn't know.
Concerns about overpenetration was the main reason given for the Swedish police's shift to hollowpoint ammunition.
context is everything
@@kleinerprinz99 "We want to make sure everyone gets penetrated exactly the right amount!"
@@johanmetreus1268 as I understand it, the NYPD had enough ACTUAL cases of innocents getting hurt by over-penetration that they started special-ordering their Glock pistols with 15lb triggers.
Proving:
1: politicians don't know ANYTHING about ANYTHING
2: NYPD can't shoot, but can blame their misses on the guns.
The anecdote about the guy wanting to order 500 magazines is one of the best examples of bureaucracy at work that I have ever heard.
Proof that it doesn't matter when or where, politicians are ignorant.
Taking a regular joe and putting him in charge of military procurement tends to cause a lot of issues. Put somebody in charge that actually understands how the military works.
It's more like they're typically forced to make decisions on things well outside of their wheelhouse and can't bring themselves to defer to experts because of either optics or ego.
@@shingofan or a combination of both!
"I'll take 10 pistols, 4k rounds and 500 magazines please"
@Otosj van Tolerbok "Wait, if we run out of bullets the gun stops working? Tell the manufacturer we need a gun that doesn't have that problem"
I wonder if they ordered holsters and magazine pouches too?
@@redcat9436 Definitely gonna need 4,000 sheets of target paper.
It’s so fascinating how much modern firearm development revolves around the development of coil springs.
Moral of this story: Politicians are stupid.
Yeah that seems about right.
@@vksasdgaming9472 that's rare...
Corrupt & overly complicating
And yet even stupider people keep voting for them.
@@shawnr771 The average person don't really bother reading into who they vote for.
@@LazyLifeIFreak which makes them both lazy and stupid.
There is a saying here, when the Germans invaded and where on one side of the river they could shoot and hit targets, while we the Dutch could only shout, cause our guns couldn't reach the other side of the river, that's how obsolete our army was.
this is obviously nonsense. the dutch army rifle was comparable to other rifles of the time. or ahead, it was 6,5 mm calibre -like the US army is considering now in the 21st century!!!
!!....
Nice trip down memory lane and a nice insight in how the dutch can "argue" over seemingly trivial (to outsiders) stuff. To this day bullet penetration remains a point of concern for the dutch, hence now we have 9mm RUAG Action4 NL cartridges in a Walther P99Q NL police pistol. And yeah, we love requesting modifications to whatever comes out of the regular production runs, hence why there's a lot of "NL" or "NLD" variants of various armaments, either from factory or after the fact by the same guys that suggested the coil spring in the Luger.
And then you have a US politician who's worried that moving troops around Guam might cause the island to capsize. This is the folly of representative gov't.
Source? Not doubting you; I'm interested in reading about it.
@@AccidentalNinja th-cam.com/video/cesSRfXqS1Q/w-d-xo.html
Guy was reportedly going through cancer treatment at the time and was both shitfaced on meds and brain-damaged from cancer meds
@@norwegianwiking sadly for politicians usually the words "Incapable of performing their Duties" doesn't exist... And that sadly also includes those that aren't shit faced on Medication
"precious bodily fluids"
The other Dutch improvement is that the toggle action also functions as a cigarette rolling machine.
Goed zo!
A-ha! Good to know... hold my beer, be right back... 😁
agree totally with the opening statement!
Reminds me of the Eurofighter procurement idiocy we had from our politicians. OK, the modern battlefield has changed, but in an attempt to save money, they wanted to buy Eurofighters without cannons. Except the aircraft needed something with the right weight distribution in the space where the cannon went, so well, .. how about concrete? Well, that had it's own issues, so how about we use all of these cannons we bought, that wont get used otherwise. OK, say the policy wonks, we'll save money by not buying any ammunition for the cannons instead.
Economies of Scale often mean that you end up buying features you don't need
Not to forget a gun on a plane will always be useful, look what they did to the Phantom, they end up adding cannons again because some Migs 17 were killing Phantoms like turkeys with cannons lol
@@beter21137 Yeah, but the gun armed Phantom (F-4E) only achieved 5 kills in Vietnam with the gun out of 23 kills in total for the E model. Sure, it's better to have a gun and not need it, but it's a myth that the introduction of the gun was somehow a game changer for the Vietnam air war. Tactics and experience played a much greater role in turning the tide of air combat against the MiGs.
@@chrislorusso433 Never said it was a game changer, just that was an unecessary action to never add a cannon on it on the first place because a politician or military guy thought "modern aerial combat dont need guns?"
Now even the F-35 and the Su 57 got at least a cannon.
@@beter21137 I am told by boys with serious toys that when "civilianizing" a MiG 15 or Chinese / Polish clone, that the canon armament MUST stay in place, but be comprehensively "neutered", or be replaced by an expensive, custom-built equivalent-weight dummy, because the gun is VITAL in the balance of the aircraft. Remove the canon and the centre of mass moves BEHIND the centre of lift: NOT a good plan.
I read this as “Dutch Lager trials”
Which would less interesting, but more fun 🍻
So Heineken vs Amstel vs Grolsch vs Hertog Jan vs Bavaria? 100 glasses endurance test?🤣🤣
@@thijsvandervoort8261 sounds good to me!
@@thijsvandervoort8261 💯
@TwinTurbo Ray my personal preference is for witbiers but I’ll take part in any beer trial!
@TwinTurbo Ray Lagers are, like half of the beer types. It's just a description of how the beer ferments. Your beer is either a lager or an ale.
I thought I had a stroke when he had the part talking about the infantry requesting the non-pdw version "just a sidearm"; shortening the barrel and sholderstock; twice.
There is a TH-cam Attorney who sells "politics ruins everything" merchandise. You just may be interested Ian. 😉😄👍
Long Live Viva
He's also from Quebec and speaks fluent French!
I prefer Rekieta but I am certain he would approve the message
"Politicians Ruin Everything"
Pretty much every country/nation in a nutshell.
Nah, you're forgetting those countries where they throw out all the politicians. That always works well. See how it's going in Sudan today.
well our politicians also know what can happen if they really go to far since in 1672 our prime minister and his brother managed to piss of the people so much they got killed and even partly eaten by the mob
This happens to Dutch millitairy procurements all the time, to this day.
I remember when they tried to replace the Walther P5 for the police. These pistols were from the 60's and it took them years to replace it because the politicians were blocking it. In 2013, after years of messing around they replaced it with the P99..
@@Beaumont6 While everybody else: Hey this Gaston Glock guy made this amazing sidearm! Its pretty dope, lets adopt it!
When I think of guns and politicians, the first thing I think of is “speed test”
“Let’s rid the country of the politicians”- Marty Robins
The man with the biggest iron.
Should prolly note that Marty only began to think politicians were bad after he got barred out on propaganda and realized that it was no longer a given that American politicians would be strictly seeking to shape the country for an old white dude's benefit.
@@FeintMotion What did race have to with this until you brought it up? He was a vehement anti communist not some klansman, of course he would be against politicians because they had sold their country out for 30 pieces of silver
@@spaman7716 There aren't any worldly anti-communists m8.
If someone sees an equitable means of conducting civilization as their sworn enemy then there isn't much more they need to divulge to place their sympathies correctly.
@@FeintMotion I like equity...but socialism (real socialism, like back in the Eastern bloc days, or today in Cuba or North Korea) is bad, because it has to be totalitarian, and communism doesn't work (that's why they never achieved it on a large scale).
"1906 was very late to be adopting a new model revolver"
Meanwhile, in Britain:
Still using revolvers in the 1st world war
@@steyn1775 so was the US with the M1917 revolver in .45 ACP.
We couldn't churn out enough 1911's, so the revolvers were there to equip what the 1911's couldn't. It also served through WWII.
Revolvers were still fairly common in WW1. Other than Britain using Webleys,United States used Colt M1917, Smith & Wesson Model 10 and even Colt SAA along with M1911,Russia used the Nagant revolvers,Germany still used M1879 Reichsrevolver along with Lugers P08 and Mausers C96,and Austro-Hungary used Rast-Gasser M1898 revolver along with Roth-Steyr M1907, Steyr M1912 and Frommer Stop pistols.
@@ZP1993 That's not the point I'm making. The point is not the use of revolvers but the adoption of new models of revolver, which the British Army continued to do long after the First World War had ended and continued to use a revolver as the primary sidearm throughout the Second World War. The examples you give are powers continuing to use existing revolvers, with the exception of the M1917s which were adopted to fill shortfalls in M1911 production rather than be a replacement. Especially for a major power, the British Army were extraordinarily late to adopt a semi-automatic pistol, that's the joke.
"Politicians Ruin Everything" truer words were never spoken. Especially these days!! Let's all thank Gun Jesus for his wisdom!
Yea, verily!
Yea
Aye
Water is wet.
yes how one pad potlic and a facist party murder over 400k amercans! maby amercan get a poroper systeme
Opening statement is the reason why my country not developed yet
And it's also why my country (America) has and still is developing as weirdly as it is.
@@markfergerson2145 That is odd even case right people in govenment for log time can make anyting possible
@@OLAUUBER Yeah, but "anything" includes everything from putting people on the Moon to so-called ethnic cleansing.
"Politicians ruin everything"
*Stares in EM2*
TLDR: Politicians bad, Luger Good, Thank for support Forgotten Weapons
That's basically our country's history in a nuttshell.
Good thing to see that dutch politics haven't changed in 110 years. When it comes to the military atleast
Military? Mate it's still a thing at pretty much every facet...
Much appreciate the luger vid for my 22nd birthday bro!
The craftsmanship in old firearms is beautiful
Obviously the Dutch Parliament had seen the part in 'Last Crusade' where Indy kills four Germans with one bullet from a 9mm Luger.
We, Dutch, were testing the use of tanks in the late 1930's.... that tells you enough about my country's approach to military developments....
That said... we did produce advanced armoured vehicles prior to WW2....
The Dutch army's revolver, that was used when these trials started was in 9.4mm rimfire.
Eventually, the Dutch army adopted the FN Browning model 1910 in 1925.
Video goes for 16 minutes... 1 minute up, 14 likes... we can all agree that Ian is the ballers of ballers in the Firearms game. Genius.
3 Dislikes. Must be those politicians...
Bro, everytime he uploads something i upvote before watching the video, Im 100% sure i will find it interesting anyways
Wait long enough and DWM will offer a .45 calibre pistol. Most magazines were tin dipped not nickel plated. The word "carregada" is from the Portuguese meaning loaded. I made alot of parts for these early Luger pistols for John Martz, Sarco, Numrich and other small parts houses.
Did you know Ira Trast and george?? man those were the days!
I'm Dutch and was very surprised that the word "Carregada" was used. Not 0.3% of the Dutch solders in 1905 would know what the word means and maybe 2% nowadays....
12:10 The loaded chamber indicator is marked "CARREGADA", isn't that a portuguese pistol?
Could be. They might have just used leftover guns or parts for the trial run.
If you notice the top of the chamber, you see an M2 with a crown above. That is a different gun, a Portuguese 1906 Parabellum
Gun Jesus preformed a miracle: He turner a Dutch into a Portuguese 😄
I think there may have been an editing error. I expect a portugese Luger video to appear soon lol.
Carregada is the word for "loaded" in Portuguese
In defence of the 500 magazines, I mean.... it's not entirely pointless. If you're testing for fit, finish, reliability.
The more you have, the better. In fact, the more the much better. You can make sure that things actually work on more case situations. And more importantly, magazines to destroy in extremely destructive testing.
There's something to be said for just leaving a job to the actual experts.
All automatic pistols are Magazine dependent..
This was why Gen.Patton preferred the revolver 🔫..
That coil spring was an idea of Artillerie Inrichtingen Hembrug.
Well known by their versions of the Steyr Mannlicher carbines and the AR10 rifle.
Ian, your presentation helped keep it a very interesting story. Thanks. This is literally the first reference I've heard associating a toggle action with reliability. Still learning.
Extremely well-done video. It's very interesting to see the inner workings (or not) of firearm procurement (or not) procedures.
We've had this problem since at least 1672, continuing onto this day 👌👌👌. It's an amazing comedy of incompetence, greed, being cheap or personal interests ruining something with massive potential. At least we still have our clogs, cheese, beer and waterworks tho lmao
And then we're not even starting about the whole hilarity that's the KNIL... I really pitty those that had to deal with trying to convince politicians back home that no they're not in a marshland but in a Jungle... And no the Continental way of doing things does not work in Indonesia....
13:40 I bet that MP had a PhD in Cartoon Physics
Great story/stories Ian, much appreciated!
Interesting serving of history and firearms as is so often provided on your channel.
Love the luger! But, the C93 is a hard to handle love.
Literally hard to handle.
The reason the order got cancelled was because a bunch of small government libertarians and conservative were in power and refused to spend the cash on it.
Thank you , Ian .
Please GO ON! I've learned SO MUCH by your videos!
Love these stories, thanks dude. Keep up the good work.
Ian thank you. You're catalog of firearms knowledge for all is magnificent. Again thank you.
Loved this fascinating background story of the famous luger
That introduction is absolutely fantastic
Still one of the best looking pistols ever made
13:25 Nice to see that our government hasn't changed that much since 1905
I learn so much about history and industry and manufacturing from watching your channel.
The pistol at minute 12 is a Portuguese contract Luger. It has the Dom Manuel II crest on it and the "Carregada" loaded chamber indicator.
Great story it answered several questions I have had
That cold open needs to be a video by itself. Or added as a cold open, by default, to every damn video on the internet.
I’ve loved Lugers since I was a kid watching WWII movies and “The Man from Uncle”, which I thought was using Lugers but since realized that show used Ruger .22’s. Anyhow…I’d love an old Luger, either 9mm or 7.65, wouldn’t even have to have matching numbers.
Dutch parliament: We don't need semiauto handguns. And what IS a semiauto handgun?
Outstanding history! Thanks!
Great video. Love to hear the backstory on firearms.
I really liked this video. Thanks.
As a Dutchman, I thank you for this episode ! Very interesting.
As a Dutch person, I immediately knew it was going to be a bureaucratic nightmare. This sounds horribly familiar.
Chamber loaded indicators are tight!
That intro sums up the present day Dutch political situation to a tee
Right as always, Ian...
Excellent opening
Dutch procurement has not changed in the last 115 years i gather
I can just imagine some of hte folks at DWM at the time: "Kurt? Die Holländer wollen schon wieder was..."
* _'want'_
Opening statement is my entire mindset these days
Great story. When he got to the 'punch line' I got a real chuckle out of that.I
7:12 No, that's 9 meters per meter. Dimensionless bullets for a dimensionless enemy.
What good timing, C&Rsenal just did a piece on the Luger.
lolol, 500 luger mags, that's an officer for you
Ian would make an excellent guest on the Viva & Barns weekly sidebar.
Same go’s for the AR10 ( Artillery inrichtingen, later M15, M16, M4 etc),.
We dutch know how to build fire arms 😎
We know how, but just refuse to do it.
Oh, the truth can be a bitter pill, politicians screwing up anything they touch ... thanks for the video.
15:48 "Thank you, politicians." Not pictured; giant middle finger.
The Dutch Royal Navy also adopted the luger, in 1918.
De beginjaren van het gebroken geweertje... tegenwoordig ook weer relevant helaas als je ziet in welke staat de marine en de landmacht is...
Tnx Ian for the info! , yes our politicians have not really changed over the years, still spineless.
It was formally adopted... they just didn't buy any 😂
It's like OH MY GOD JUST BUY SOMETHING. WE ARE NOT A LIBRARY, WE ARE NOT AN ART GALLERY. BUY OUR PISTOLS FOR THE LOVE OF GOD AAAAAA
the magazine thing probably makes sense since its 1903 and everybody has clips with internal magazines, which was what he probably though since you're translating german to dutch with a technical term that's relatively new
Beautiful.
The angle on those cocking ears looks exactly wrong--as if you'd have to point the pistol at yourself to work the action.
0:00 Oh boy don't they ever!
Ahhhhh good to see nothing has changed in 100+ years
I don’t even need to watch the video to agree with the title.
There's a random clip from a different pistol inserted at 12:00 lol
@@thompson1353 It's a portuguese Luger.
My grandfather said the Luger was the most comfortable hand gun he fired , perfect balance and fit .
I'd like to try one myself but they're hard to come by . The closes I can get is my Ruger MKIII : )
"10 of the 9mm guns: we want to have a bunch of specific requests"
Me, looking at list of Dutch carbine variations: Of course they did...