Hill SMG/Pistol: Inspiration for the FN P90
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John L. Hill was a World War One fighter pilot who went into the oil and gas industry, and enjoyed tinkering with guns in his free time. In 1949 he got an idea for a new style of magazine and feed system, which he developed and patented in the early 1950s. Hill’s intention was to create a submachine gun for the military or police that held its magazine flat atop the action, instead of sticking out of the gun where it would get in the way. To do this, Hill designed the system that would be later used in the FN P90, with ammunition held perpendicular to the barrel, and a turret mechanism in the action to turn the cartridges 90 degrees for feeding in the chamber.
Hill built 7 or 8 fully automatic prototypes, which were examined by the US Army and the FBI. One was tested at Aberdeen Proving Grounds in 1953, and we still have some of the photos from that examination (that particular gun was guilt using an MP40 barrel, interestingly). Hill’s guns varied in pretty much all details, including different barrel lengths, stock configurations, and magazines. Some used single stack and some double stack magazines, but all were a simple blowback action.
At some point in the late 50s or early 60s, Hill sold his patent rights to a pair of Texas businessmen who built 90 or 100 more examples (mostly semiautomatic) under the name H&B Enterprises. They took one to FN in Belgium, who found it interesting but did not opt to license or produce it. Ultimately, nobody was interested enough to put the gun into production, and only a small number of the H&B guns survive today. The original Hill prototypes were donated to the Lone Star Flight Museum in Texas in 1993, although it is not clear where they are today.
When FN began to design the P90 in the early 1980s, Hill’s concept made a return. It is not known exactly how much direct link there was between the Hill prototype and the P90 concept, but the eventual patents filed on the P90 do reference Hill’s patents (among others). The P90 remains the only production firearm to use this clever rotary feeding system.
Hill's patents:
patents.google...
patents.google...
patents.google...
For more documents, see the Forgotten Weapons page on this design:
www.forgottenw...
Contact:
Forgotten Weapons
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I was friends with Hills daughter. She died at 99 in 2021. She talked a lot about hanging out with him in New Mexico while he was testing it and refining it.
Do expand! Maybe you could write out or record what you recall, and send in a letter to the P.O. Box so we can get a follow-up or extended video on this?
This really suprised me cuz for a long time I thought the P90's feeding mechanism and magazine design was a unique invention by FN. The more you know
There is an old expression: "There is nothing original under the Sun" Everything comes from somewhere, was inspired by something else.
@@FlymanMS Wasn't G11's magazine mounted differently? If I recall correctly the rounds were in a 90 degree angle along a different axis. If the barrel is the X-axis, this design is placing the rounds by the Z-axis (horizontal). The G11 is placing the rounds by the Y-axis (vertical). Thus I would refer to them as two different concepts.
From my experience most things where invented about 20-100 years before they get sold by a better known / richer person.
@@actionhirvimoose4294 g11 applies a "pitch" change and the p-90 applies a "rotation" along the axis of the action.
G11 is also a fair bit more convoluted
@@FlymanMS Yes G11 is another good example of an ancient idea. There are magazine fed pistols from 16000's using similar feed.
And the idea might go back to 1400 A.D. or so.
This looks like a rare version of a child's concept of a gun. In a good way.
'Proof of concept.'
It looks like a product of a shop class.....woodworking shop that is.
A child's idea that was finally realized and taken seriously years later.
Yeah looks like a gun stick figures get
That looks like somebody with a Maschineshop was bored at quarantine
Really like Ian’s “we’ve heard _that_ before.” ‘That’ being single-use/disposable magazines (until the quartermaster corps gets involved).
Kel-Tec is watching this video sweating excitedly...
They sweated already and made the p50 lol
dont give them ideas 😳
Exactly what I was thinking.
LOL good one!
The P50 already exists.
imo FN's solution to move rotation to the magazine was really smart. Instead of having a giant solid heavy disc whipping back and forth between each shot, the rounds are instead gently fed through a stationary lightweight spiral. By making the spiral bit part of the magazine, you can fit your last rounds into the spiral itself, increasing your magazine capacity. It also solves the problems of feeding pressure and pushing out the last few rounds, since you can have your magazine follower take the form of 2 cartridge-sized rollers that can follow the last rounds down the spiral itself. So impressed by how inventive this is. I wonder if Mr. Hill would've arrived at the same solution if he'd had access to 1980s-strength plastics
The downside to fns design is that 5.7 rounds all need a light wax coating
@@thebowtieguy777 FN was never one for saving cash.
That might not be necessary, if updated with the inherently slippery (wetted is the official term) modern composites.
I use a proprietary one at work where adding liquid lubricants increases the surface area, and friction.
@@thebowtieguy777I thought the wax was necessary because it was a straight walled high pressure cartridge fired from a blowback weapon?
"It pushes into the indent here on the magazine and the cartridges will.... yes just like that" Ian's internal monologue "That was the best demonstration I didn't mean to do"
7:30 Like Ian's reaction to the cartridges feeding out of the magazine (like it's inserted in the firearm) while Ian's describing what's happening in theory. His reaction is so genuine and surprised.
Ian is truly passionate about his work. Much respect
@@pearson935Ian is literally the best there is at this genre of videos.
The charging handle is marked "H" because it's on the left. If it were on the right it would be marked "C". Any plumber would know this.😁
You are wise in the ways of useful pipes. 👍
Would you say, "going hot" every time you racked it?
this made me LOL like I haven't in quite some time
Lmao
Wait a minute. Is that really true or a fantastic joke?
Herman Mueschke was a brilliant guy and an absolute top tier gunsmith. Sadly he passed away shortly after I met him. Now that I have this on my mind I'm going to call my dad and make sure he still has the Colt Python that Herman built for him out of a box of parts he bought for $200.
And then kel-tec made the P50; A pistol that uses P90 mags lol
Time is a flat circle
Me: Reads comment.
Searches P50.
Gets overwhelmed with confusion and fear.
That thing looks like the automatic pistol from GTAV
Its amazing how complicated that turn table system is and how the same thing was achieved in the magazine so simply with a spiral ramp and a pair of cylindrical roller followers. Turned a very complicated gun into something as easy to make as a 10/22.
Its a box with a grip, boxy body, and a barrel. Thats genuinely impressive ergonomics for how different it was for the era.
prototype
*A blinding flash, making you avert your eyes....and there in front of you is Steampunk Hiram Maxim* "Have you seen Edison?"
Wait what Does that mean that Hiram maxim travelled forward in time to when this gun was produced and then he asks for Edison, gives ya a few tips on your design and fucks off? Or u travelled back to a alternate steampunk Hiram maxims workshop?
@@doranobannon7696 Yes
It looks like something someone in brazil would come up with if you gave them a fully furnished machine shop and good parts.
Brazilian ‘ere, can confirm, looks like it
@@bellheader hahaha yeah that does look favela style, its interesting brazilian homade guns have their own look... so do russian ones. brazilian guns look like any gun arnold as quade from total recall used.. russian stuff looks like some sort of thing used in madmax
@@manchagojohnsonmanchago6367
Brazilian Guns are Ork Shootas
Just for the overall size and look it reminds me of that Calico pistol. It has no magazine in that style but is also downward ejecting and has a similar overhang in the back.
That feeding system is slick ans seems fool-proof.
The pro is, as Ian mentionned, the fact that when ever the magazine is made reusable or not, it is not such a critical part of the system and so can be made cheaper and still be reliable.
The critical part of the feeding/ejecting action is the turntable radius and its spatial relation to the ejection port.
Turn everything backwards with a telescoping bolt and make the ejection port closer to the turntable, add an active ejector (rocker lever maybe) here you are, even better than the P90.
Showing something informally to the FBI sounds like a euphemism for being investigated & required to show the agents any & all weapons you possess.
I like the looks of this firearm. Looks like something I could have made in shop class.
Me: Mom, can we get an FN P90
Mom: We have a P90 at home
P90 at home:
To be fair though, that's an elegant looking gun.
I like the rotary system as part of the gun vs being integral to the magazine, seems more robust.
What an interesting design. So many unique features! I really love the hollow grip ejection port though, shame that didn't catch on elsewhere, though I can imagine it occasionally pumping a hot case down your sleeve and making you do the Jitterbug!
The P90 ejects at the bottom of the gun like this.
The ARs that use P90 mags eject out of the mag well.
Dang, you got your hands on the Minecraft gun?!
Amazing comment
Jamioflan says hi.
Really great info on Hills idea that ended up in a P90
Always a pleasure Ian.
I noticed a couple of angled cuts on the turntable to assist the cartridge to line up to the slot, making a couple more feedramps.
Looks like that rare weapon you get at the end of the main story in some video games...
I am so surprised to featured this. I need to watch this channel more often.
The fact that a Canadian gunsmith laid the groundwork for the very successful and unique FN P90 submachine gun makes me proud. It required certain milestones in manufacturing and bullet technology for it to happen but Hill's name lives on at least on Forgotten Weapons. I do wonder if the mechanical design was sufficently robust as a SMG (I assume the semiauto pistol it wouldn't pose an issue)in the longterm as the action looks complicated but admittedly not to the degree that the G11 accomplished.
It's actually fairly robust still, all things considered. There's just a rod running along the inside of the receiver on the right sit that when the bolt it back far enough, it rotates the turntable. That bar is a lot like the charging handle on this gun, only it's fully inside the gun and it reciprocates.
Very cool. Looks like a space pistol.
Nice video.
I had issues with Tipton 9mm snap caps as well. I tried some A-ZOOM caps and they're fine. As an added bonus, they're also closer to the weight of a live round.
they didn't have to bling this out so hard, 50's pimpin
This has that glorious ‘fresh from grandads machine shop’ look about it!
I just love it.
I quite like it, the colours work very well with the angular design.
Every once in a while you present a gun I was totally unaware of that just blows my mind. I had no idea that type of feed system existed that far back.
This piece of machine art is so impressive...looks like he did it on the workbench at home, but he had it well done!😁
I wanted to see those cartridges feed and eject so bad... Really interesting gun!
The maroon-colored dummy rounds that are machined out of aluminum would be a good investment. They have them in many common calibers, and they have a hard-rubber "primer" to cushion the blow of firing pins/strikers, and last for a LOT of dry firing.
I suspect the concept artists on Star Trek had seen one of these: there's a lot of similarities between it and a phaser pistol.
Not just in silhouette: both share a large detachable section on top, and a raised plate at the front of the body.
Huh. You know, I see that now! Completely possible, even plausible.
the gold and black of that example totally makes it a great bond villain gun. Its a shame the dummy rounds were too big to do a demo, that would have been really cool to see
It is the most realistic toy gun I have ever seen and it fires real rounds.
I love the idea of this gun. And it reminds me of the P90.
This gun and its legacy is SO COOL! Thank you for this video!
It looks like a crazy James Bond-villain-one-of-a-kind-pistol.
all my favorite colors and a early prototype that led to the p90? is it Christmas already.
Old steampunk-looking gun influenced the most sci-fi looking gun. Thats pretty cool
Looks like one of the Props from "The League of extraordinary Genltemen" who just put bolted, rectangular cases above real guns to make them look more steampunky.
A very forgotten, and pretty darned cool, weapon!
Looks straight out of the 1970s with the wood grip, black and gold.
Also I feel like this design would be a good contender for a bull pup configuration with how long it is.
Turns out it was a fantastic platform for a Bullpup.
A gun that could be both a steampunk prop and a sci-fi blaster prop (with less modification than a lot of others).
Shooting the gun upside down or at very odd angles might also be necessitated when you are shooting through holes in covers which are close to the ground and or near to obstacles which limit your position.
Thank god u finally got to this I found out about this gun a few weeks back and was wondering if you would ever check it out
now i want to see a video on the P90, this thing is cool
With that all black, gold and square reciever, this pistol looks like shooting coffin to me.
Thabnk you for this video. I've always wondered how the PDW could operate and this made it simple enough for a dimwit like me to understand.
This looks flippin good
Looks very well made
It is. While there's some spots with machining marks visible inside, there's no grit to the moving parts and everything fits together very nicely. It shows that this was put together by an expert's hand and not mass manufactured.
Your channel is always fascinating. I do enjoy history, and the history of weapons, and you do a great job! Also enjoy the stuff you do at the range. 👍
I bet Ian got a cold sweat when he realised he gotten a round stuck in there
This is truly an example of a revolutionary idea fashioned into existence by a man who knew what he was doing. It's a little disappointing that the only production firearm to use this feeding method is the P90.
At least the gun that used it is a super iconic gun that will be popular for generations.
Looks lik a 3d printed gun. He was ahead of his time.
When i saw the picture i thought it would be a bullpup and have a longer barrel.
That "First Prototype" of the Hill SMG looked like they just ripped the stock off of an M1 Carbine and shoved the action into it.
I still dream about a movie with P90 development vs MP7 - I know a lot of people have done this.. but i trust Ian more.
I always thought these were super complicated guns. Pretty simple really
Umm.. so that's how the Kalash 2012 in Metro works.. that's said, this looks awesome and in a rifle configuration it would be fun as hell.
Looks like something that the guards on the Nautilus would have carried.
Almost looks like a gun used in a 007 movie...The Man with the Golden Gun?
neat they did a similar pistol version later on
As a P90 owner I'd be interested to see how the feed system worked in real world scenarios, I do have 1 mag that tends to be ammo picky, it runs fine with the nylon tipped bullets but doesn't like hollow points. An issue I don't think this gun would have. Also as stated obviously the ejection port though cool would have to be relocated.
6:00 a gun jesus miracle! Lo the cartridge was cast upon the ground but IAN commanded it to rise up
Looks like something a 70s James Bond villain would have
The coolest thing I will see today
the legend is back
Bloody beauty mate.
I love the completely random 1800's styling.
I want to build one. Looks like fun.
This looks as if someone threw steampunk, retrofuturism and a handful of hex wrenches under a hydraulic press.
Sight radius, we don't need no stinkin' sight radius.
The author just ignored that if he switched the feed mechanism to the back, it should have a longer barrel. Like P90 its designed.
It looks like ye olde steampunk supersoaker with all this black/gold and wood furniture
This was a intresting one Ian, thanks for chearing.
I would love to see a video about the P90. It’s not forgotten, but it’s very interesting.
Man, does this mean Ian will be looking at KelTec P50 at some point? Since that is a pistol built around the P90 mags which sound like were based on this Hill/H&B pistol.
When a Walther P-38 marries a Mac 10...this is what comes out.
Children's guns are always the best.
That is a really funky feeding system lol
It's a PEZ dispenser with a trigger.
It looks like a Hyperion legendary gun you get out of the key chest
These guns would have been perfect for the henchmen in the 007 film Goldfinger.
>when big corporations copy stuff 100%, that's R&D and shut up about it!
>when indie companies take old ideas to further develop it to something different, THAT COPYRIGHT AND PATENT INFRINGEMENT, SUE SUE SUE!
Hey... I like the 2 tone colors. In RDR2 I made all my weapons look like that
The colour scheme, kinda looks like something from a bond movie.
Also, Hill being Canadian a few police forces here in Canada adopted the P90 as their long gun. Since then the C8? (I think) M4 ish Patrol carbine was made the standard across Canada. For logistical and interoperability between forces purposes I have been told. But yeah there's a footnote for Hill / P90 development.
It seems it's the hook above the action which actually pulls the cartridges from the magazine, not something acting on the follower. How would that work ?
Ian I think covers it in the video, but that hook or feed ramp or whatever is what lines the cartridges up in the correct position to feed into the gun. Because of the funky turntable setup, there's only space for one cartridge to leave the mag at a time. It's a very ingenious setup that completely foregoes the need for feed lips on the mag. It's difficult to explain the process in words though
Looks like something Elbonia would buy.
This is very resemblant to the calico m100 also
So, basically FN sit on an idea for P90 and use it after Hill's patents expired? Nice.
Looks like a gun that a villain in a bond movie would use.
the black gold and wood is cheesy in a way i really really like
Black and gold are West Point colors. Could be an appeal to Army brass.