Personally, I think Haradrim and Easterlings would have been far more effective as sympathetic villains, but what do you think? Does this concept resonate with you? Or does it miss the mark?
It's alright, I do agree that the men who served morgoth would have been better (we had a bit of it in season 1) Sadly there are alot of people just trying to push they're own agenda's who have little knowledge of tolkiens work (both in support of and condemning the show)
@@Dumbledore6969x why would diverse casting in a fantasy setting make you think that? There's nothing about employing black people that made the showrunners play fast and loose with the source material.
This show is trash. Tolkien said orcs were evil creatures. Not mommy and daddy staying home to take care of little jr and play ball in the fields of gorgoroth. Get real
@@SirBoggins Did you even watch the video? Orcs are not "inherently" evil because Tolkien, a devout catholic, despised the idea that an entire race can be wholly evil.
we saw a male check on a female and infant for less than 3 seconds. I'd hardly call that 'loving.' Even scorpions and rats care for their young. It's one of the top three most universal instinct across all life forms. Yet orcs cannot...?
Truly it is so. And just like any dutiful father, he left this plan of existence to allow his children to be bond eternally to his personal assistant with a beautiful ring. So admirable.
It was a 2 second clip showing an orc father, mother and child. It didn't show "a loving family" beyond the orcs apparently expressing concern for their progeny; something pretty much every mammal does.
@@davidjones272 firstly, she had completed pregnancy and had the baby. Second: The scene was obviously meant to illustrate an orcs concern for the wellbeing of his female partner and their baby orc. He obviously has quite a bit of affection for them if he’s even superficially concerned enough to talk to the “father of all orcs” about it.
Or maybe like some beasts, living in holes or like a tribal bestial-like people living in huts and all sons of an overlord who gets breeding rights out of strength and combat. Like lions, the dominant kills the offspring of other males... that would be badass. Thats how I roll my DnD orcs. But I like the Warhammer 40K hypothesis too. lol.
The issue was not showing an orc mother & baby, but showing them as a family, they wouldn't have any such social unit, no warmth, no care, only would focus on growing them as soon as possible to make them killers. The fact that they created this poor orc family that needs independence & peace, essentially as victims, ruins the lore. I think most people hated this point, not whether they were mating or not.
But we don't know this for sure as Tolkien never explored how Orc Families operate. Evil people can still have loving families within the context of themselves.
Haradrim/Easterlings would’ve not only been better candidates for exploring this type of moral grey area but also would’ve allowed for diversity inclusion within the existing canon. Plus it would’ve been a really fresh, exciting storyline for hardcore/casual fans alike. A rare win-win-win situation.
When the casting was announced I was so excited that they were going to expand on these largely unexplored cultures. I imagined Lenny Henry as one of the Blue Wizards struggling against Sauron manipulating their largely justified resentment and hatred of the Numenoreans, or perhaps he was going to play one of their leaders who would be lured into accepting one of the nine rings and slowly fading to the will of Sauron. Instead, he was cast as the leader of a psychopathic band of not-Hobbits.
Yes, but inclusivity and diversity is not really about representation. It's about ego and who does what(similar to how modern feminists aren't really about 50 / 50, but more about matriarchy and giving all the "nice jobs" to women). Ofc that with those two regions, they would have all the freedom of representation they wanted, but that's not the point. Them "leaving their mark on Tolkien(and history)" is the point. And as such, ofc they need to strongarm their feeble ideas where they don't belong.
Again, this returns us to the "how long do Orcs live" question. Since Gorbag and Shagrat CLEARLY remember a time "before the big bosses" they must have been around since before 2942 3rd Age when Sauron returned to Barad Dur. This would make them both OLDER than 77 years of the Sun. The Great Goblin and his cronies in his Throne Room instantly recognize Glamdring and Orcrist ON SIGHT despite neither being seen wielded for the last 6,462 years. If anything this gives credence to the "ruined form of Elves" theory on Orc longevity. Alternatively, Tolkien didn't have time to retcon things before he died as he did with changing the "Riddles in the Dark" chapter in the Hobbit.
Two thoughts, for the orcs talking about the old days, it could be from their fathers or grandfathers who lived in that manner before the return of Sauron, that or the orcs were more relaxed before the start of the war and were a bit more independent until they were all marshaled by the dark lord. As for Orcrist and Glamdring which are both 1st Age Weapons, they may have been heirlooms that were used by elves in Eriador for slaying orcs throughout the 2nd and 3rd ages before they joined the trolls' stash of loot. In which case the tales and memories of those blades could be much more fresh than the wars of the First Age.
@@dallinadams9422 If elves recovered those swords in the second age they would have been kept instead of being in a trolls cave. IRT memories from orc ancestors, Gorbag clearly is speaking about HIS own life ergo he’s at least 90 years old.
I think that the goblins recognise it because those weapons may have reached a level of infamy within the orc society as being orc killers, not so much because the orcs were alive to see those weapons 6000 years ago. Not only that but the goblin king likely sensed old elven magic that would have been used in the creation of the weapons. On your other point, the date that Sauron returns to Barad Dur is not necessarily the date that he consolidates all his power and rounds up his armies, he likely already had a sizable force in Barad Dur even before his return, and only a few decades later when he feels like its time to prepare for an offensive is when he calls for all the orcs of mordor to come under his banner.
I love the conversation that Sam overhears in ROTK between the two orcs which just for me personally really did a lot to make them seem a bit more sympathetic and relatable
This is actually a really, really good point. The degree of dialogue between orcs in that scene makes it very clear that the orcs have a mindset which is capable of conceptualizing self-determination or individualistic desire and war weariness. Their conversation is more comparable to soldiers in deployment than mindless drones. Corrupted as they may be, it is still possible that they retain certain human-like elements. I really feel like the wild hatred of Rings of Power comes often (not always, but sometimes) from people who are jumping on the bandwagon and assuming that because it came from Amazon it must be bad - many of whom may not have read the books personally, or even (in some cases) watched the shows for themselves.
@@RaccoonRepublic I recently reread that part and it seems obvious that the orks are more victims of sauron than evil creatures. It explicitly states that most of saurons servants are against their will serving him. I think that's not just talking about his human servants.
Yes I would agree with that and also add that it’s more than just the whole family aspect. I think it’s more of a it is not in their nature to just be like ya I don’t wanna fight anymore I just want to live and be free. Like it said in the letter they are creatures who enjoy fighting with not just the free people but also themselves. They are very self centered and cruel beings who enjoy committing wicked deeds, taking pleasure in the act. Maybe they aren’t all as cruel and wicked at heart and maybe if they could grow in an environment that was not either the strong survive and the weak die or under the command of a dark lord maybe just maybe they would have a chance. Though when they are seen as the enemies of the free people and the policy is basically kill on site it is very unlikely that such an event would come to pass.
While there's no denying that Orc-women exist, I think it's much more likely that Morgoth and Sauron would have kept them specifically for breeding. Basically, they were breeding slaves. This would explain how they were able to grow their armies so exponentially.
@@godzillamaster34 Independent orcs are no kinder or gentler than their dominated kind and are repeatedly said to hate each other and enjoy inflicting evil. Whatever a natural orc life cycle would look like it wouldn't be loving or protective
"No one would see him, no one would notice him, till he had his fingers on their throat. Only a few hours ago he had worn it, and caught a small goblin-imp. How it squeaked! He still had a bone or two left to gnaw, but he wanted something softer." The Hobbit, Riddles in the Dark
@@Franzsyztem i don't believe that's so. Why bother to make the distinction if they're the same? They were clearly different in the books, anyway. Mentioned alongside each other certainly, but always individually.
As you say, depicting the Herodrim and Easterlings would be a far better option than the Orcs. I highly doubt Amazon is going to do this though unfortunately
I bet they're under the impression they're doing something bold and brash by trying to do Warcraft orc humanizing characterization and lore situations for Lotr orcs, disregarding the world of difference between the depictions of the species
@@kennethsatria6607 Probably, however what can you do? I just hope that they don't make out the Stranger to be Gandalf. I think if they do i'll be done with the show
I feel like depecting sympathetic orcs in tolkeins world could only really work in the fourth age after the fall of Sauron. No more big bosses to serve, the orcs are finally free of evil influence and can live in peace alongside men and elves
@@Almost_a_hero the orcs are actually based on transgender people so naturally they can’t be redeemed and instead have to be entirely destroyed to save the world from their blight.
I think these writers going out of their way to try and humanize nearly irredeemable monsters is extremely odd, unproductive, uninteresting and unnecessary. Just, why? It feel like an ulterior motive more than actual story telling or world building.
I think the character of Adar is important here. While in proximity to Adar they may be trying to emulate him and his love for his children the orcs. Once Sauron kills Adar it will be interesting to see how the orcs change.
Fully agree with this. This is probably the closest to a united orc community as we're ever going to see, all held together by a father figure. It would make sense for the concept of affection to stem from such a period in orc history
Great video Matt ❤ no click bait titles, no exaggerated thumbnails, just true Tolkien. Your videos always clearly show that you respect, know and understand Tolkien. Mindless negativity about everything these days is so trending, it’s refreshing to hear your thoughts. Keep it up!
I've thought of it more as an issue of these Orcs being less fallen than the Orcs we see in Lord of the Rings. They are led by a first-generation Orc, are 3000+ years prior to the War of the Ring, are not enthralled by the One Ring, and have come out of generations separated from both Morgoth and Sauron. They are clearly attempting to chart a path of their own, and I think we can see the glimmer of light that will be snuffed out.
"For myself, I pity even his (Sauron's) slaves" --Gandalf the White, THE RETURN OF THE KING. The whole idea that Orcs even in part are corrupted Men and/or Elves fills me with horror and pity. Tolkien was not someone who lacked nuance, who thought no evil could be redeemed or that no good could not be corrupted. It is an essential part of his legendarium.
I think one of the most common misreadings of Tolkien is that he is interested in black and white good and evil. Anything we can see to complicate that (mid)reading is a welcome addition in my view. If anything, seeing a devoted orc family makes what we know about their more total corruption later even more tragic. Side note: I don’t know that “loving” would even be the right word here - does an orc father “love” his child or just want his child to succeed and carry on some lineage?
The thing is though is that in rings of power the orcs don’t just express an unwillingness to serve Sauron they actually go ahead and try to outright kill him. In the books Sauron is quite able to inspire fear and control over them that so much so that it’s never written that orcs have ever directly rebelled against him. Orcs don’t really have a choice of leadership when there’s a dark lord to control them. And also the idea of orcs having loving families like humans and elves is just too much. They should have tried to come up with some kind of system or behaviour that matches the cruelty and carelessness that orcs possess.
That scene was like how many seconds long but i'm amazed at how much controversy that little scene is to everyone, like it's sacrilege of the highest order - oh no its not Canon down with Amazon - gods its so taxing to imagine people watching a show to only find faults.
Another comment points out that the Orcs follow "Adar", who has established himself as a father of all Orcs due to his being an original Orc- an Elf corrupted by Morgoth. If the Orcs apparently respect this dude based on the fact that they are his progeny then they must acknowledge some sort of famillial connection with their own off-spring, so an Orc dad acknowledging his Orc wife and child seems to follow the logic. I love Adar and the Orcs, they look awful compared to the movies but I like where they're going and I'm interested to see what's going to be explored with them before things fall back in with the lore.
I'll argue that Adar loves his Orcs and the Orcs love Adar. In such a dynamic, I think it makes Sauron even more evil due to the fact that he will stamp this sort of thing out. The Orcs are happy under Adar, and Sauron will take that away.
This feels like a similar debate that has been going on within the Dungeons & Dragons community for decades now. Within that community, orcs and goblins have pretty solidly been promoted from simply servants of evil, to fully realized people with their own free will, as capable of being good or evil as men, elves, dwarves and hobbits.
Orcs have always had free will and are capable of being good and evil. It was simply far more skewed towards evil because orcs in lore were created specifically by Gruumsh to serve as soldiers for his eternal blood feud with Corellon and thus he made sure that their minds and cultures were heavily seeped in his influence so that they had a proclivity for violence and an innate hatred for elves. This concept was drawn from Tolkien's own depiction of orcs. It makes zero sense for an evil god to allow their creation anonymity in any appreciable degree so you'd have to change that lore and consequently change everything about orc history. At which point can you still call them orcs? They are totally different creatures that just happen to share the same name. In my opinion, that ruins the most interesting thing about the orcs and just makes them another fantasy re-skinned human. There is so much potential for exploring the nature of evil that just goes to waste with the new changes as there is no longer any controversy to make you think more deeply about the topic.
On a related note about Haradrim and Easterlings being represented, i don't understand the point of sending the harfeet and the Stranger to Rhûn and not showing a single Easterling who isn't stereotypically evil looking yet (assuming that's the direction they're going with the dark wizard). And i really don't wanna drag the representation/diversity nonsense into this conversation, but I'd much rather have seen just normal ass inhabitants of Rhûn played by Asian actors instead of multiethnic Stoor hobbits with Celtic names (which they'd only acquire by the time they settle near Dunland, possibly in the Third Age, far from Rhûn). I'm just saying, they're really, really missing an opportunity by not showing us more Easterlings and Blue Wizards.
exactly, the issue is not that there is diversity or representation, is that the diversity and representation given makes no sense in either a fictional or real-world sense, while there are many occasions to portray diversity? The way ethnic diversity is pictured in RoP doesn't make any sense, while other fantasy franchises (GoT, HotD) manage it without issue, which helps in the suspension of disbelief.
"The Dark Wizard" really exploring the nuance of good and evil with that one. The cretins who write this garbage couldn't even just commit to a name. No, no... can't be doing without pointless mystery-boxes to drag out accross the whole season. Is the "Strager" Gandalf - or Grand Elf, or Gand Elf... Who cares.
I'm hearing a lot of complaints that the issue is not Orcs mating, but the depiction of a loving family unit. Two points in RoP's defence, here. First, it is really one small visual scene, we cant exactly judge how loving or cohesive the family unit is because he puts his arms over them and acts kind of fatherly. We're not seeing them walking the dog at the park and talking cautiously about a home loan. Second, these are Adar's orcs. His whole gimmick is that he's a liberator of the orcs. He's literally called Father, it does make sense that some kind of family bond, even in a skin deep form, could exist and be promoted under his leadership. I actually thought this scene works precisely because it shows what's at stake for Adar's plan, and how much worse it will be for the Orcs under Sauron. I've been very disappointed with RoP, but I do not care one bit about this ten second clip of an orc family. The discourse around it has been nuts
Trust the reactionary neckbeards to overreact and poison any potentially interesting discourse, as always. There's an entire cottage industry online to feed them.
I imagine a story, The Redemption of the Orcs, and it takes place long after the destruction of the Ring, and orcs have slowly settled and calmed down, like the taint of evil is slowly leaving them.
I feel depicting Orcs as loving parents goes too far. No doubt there is likely some level of parenting but I always imagined it could be incredibly dangerous to be a young orc much in the way that we have species where having siblings is dangerous competition, to survive by all means or become food. In such wicked creatures as they are generally shown to be, I can't imagine consent existing for either orc males or females either so it's possible that it would contribute to why there are such crazy huge numbers of orcs in middle earth. Well that and of course slaves as well obvipusly contribute a lot of the numbers
Agreed. I think orcs, given their selfish nature for self preservation would probably eat their young----and their young would be prone to murdering their own parents and siblings for sustenance or even sport. I don't see them as creatures engaging delayed gratification to invest in their future.
@@ahmedshaharyarejaz9886 To be fair that was Movie only as in the Books we only ever learn of Bolg when Azog was long dead. And even then, who knows how many of his siblings Bolg might have beaten, killed and eaten to grow strong enough and earn the "respect" of his father, which basically just meant to be his most important servant.
@Steckdose_ yeah I got the movies and books mixed up on that. Even so, if orcs operate on rules of might makes right, then they would still have some machaivellian social darwinistic approach to families and kinship. Their would still be Orcs and Orc mates, Orc offspring. Likely, these offspring would fend for themselves as imps until they were worthy of their sire's attention as potential tools for his own rise in the tribes ranks. And Orc females do exist, probably as near slaves and actual slaves, being used and traded around between the most powerful Orcs and being hoarded by the Strong away from the weak. It's diabolical, but it probably is the closest lore accurate approximation of what Orc kin groups look and act like.
It would be much better to see some unique orcish culture here no doubt. I think amazon really messed up by giving this a kind of just modern nuclear family vibe. Some kind of basic martial culture thing would have gone so far to make people not have an issue with it. And I think people's issue with it is vibes mostly. It's just annoying that they try to make this a lore inaccuracy thing.
It seems so out of character for orcs to be this sympathetic. I generally saw them as the hand of evil in middle earth and they played a really good part in the story like that.
I always saw Orcs as just violent thugs rather than evil per se. They were led by Sauron to do evil, but ultimately they just wanted to pillage. You can pillage and still love your family.
I think the larger point, is that people don't want to acknowledge the fact that orcs are reddemable. For many its easier to have them as mindless evil ghouls. Just shows that for some, The Other, (to use verbage from other works) is always going to be evil, no need to learn about them. Also, if Morgoth and Sauron are redeemable, then orcs can be too. Remember, although Morgoth refused to be redeemed, Sauron after Morgoth's defeat was sorry, and its believed at first he actually ment it
Morgoth and Sauron are divine spirits which chose evil. They chose it, so they can be redeemed (you know, free will). Orcs, whether they breed or are "made", didn't choose to be, which is their tragedy, and the f^^^^d up part of Tolkien's work, the thing which I always had an issue with reading the books : evil is to them as water is to fish. And that is just horrible to even think of, creatures corrupted so thoroughly they have no choice whatsoever.
@bonhommierr1501 orcs were once elves which were corrupted. Corruption can be undone. It will take a long time but I feel orcs after Sauron's defeat can be fully redeemed
Personally. I think making the orcs sympathetic could be cool to portray. It would suggest that even the orcs themselves could have been drawn towards the light if not for the corruption of Sauron. It would highlight Sauron as being all the more wicked. I don’t know about anyone else, but seeing an irredeemable person be brought back into redemption is a beautiful story. I would certainly prefer the orcs be saved. But Sauron won’t have that. And this would make it sting even more when the orcs shun the light they’ve been offered and once again become monsters.
Other then a vague resemblance to the world created by the author this show has nothing to do with Tolkien or Middle Earth. Tolkien's Galadriel, Gil-galad, Elrond, Elendil and their ilk were characters you found yourself becoming invested in. Their stories were compelling and you wanted them to prevail against darkness. I can't think of a single character in Rings of Power that elicits that response from me or actually any interest at all.
One thing I wouldn't let out of this topic, is the influence of their leader. In the show, Adar treats the orcs as living beings who deserve a place in the middle earth. That said, to me it feels quite ok for some of them not wanting to go to war, or exhibiting some measure of care about their spawn.
It makes perfect sense to me that orcs of the Second Age, long separated from the direct influence of either Morgoth or Sauron, might be at perhaps the most morally ambiguous stage of their history. Which is not to say that I think the orcs of this age, in Tolkien's version or the shows, ever had much chance of becoming morally commendable on the whole. They were doomed to play the role that they did, by powers beyond their control. But they were still sentient peoples, capable of speech and independent thought. I find it interesting how this discourse surrounding the orc family supposes categories of "is evil" and "has a family", as though these were polar and non-overlapping opposite conditions. Neither in our world nor Tolkien's have things ever been so simple. Like, there's an orc dad who is concerned about his son, sure. That doesn't mean he isn't going to raise the kid to be a cruel, elf-eating brigand. It just means he's a dad with a kid. There are such men in every nation and people. When you say "I want my country to invade this country" you are saying "I wish to kill fathers of children in this nation, and let children of those fathers starve". There is no other kind of war, nor ever will be.
"There is no question who I will be rooting for, if any of this orcs meets someone like Elrond on the battlefield". I seriously thought he was going to say the orcs.
I don't think 'redeemable' orcs are "pointless". It merely adds to the tragedy. That Orcs (and the Easterlings and Haradrim) are trapped and threatened by Sauron as well. While I am definitely team 'men of the west', we can still empathise how Sauron's thralls ate slaves.
There is nothing to argue against in your take. Point for point, I agree on all accounts. A total misalignment of intentions and mediums through which to fulfill those intents, the Orcs are not the peoples to use for them. The point on the Haradrim being a good choice is absolutely correct, with how well received the Numenoreans were by the peoples of Middle-Earth and Harad originally (let's not talk about that little misunderstanding with the Dunlending ancestors, yeah?). It's unfortunate that I know full well from which socio-political perspective this scene arose from, which made Orcs their medium of choice even though it makes no canonical or literary sense to use them for it.
It seems to me that RoP set up the orc family we see as those who are not currently under the direct control of Sauron. It makes sense for them to be less brutal and hateful while under Adar, who we see treating them with more respect.
This. The dynamic works because they are under the respectful and loving leadership of kin, their "lordfather" Adar, instating the family unit tradition he experienced first hand. Without him they will be totally lost and their nature will be exploited by Sauron and Saruman.
Exactly! People are just freaking out because they have to think about orcs as more than cannon fodder! Yes, they’re eventually going to be under Sauron, and the show is depicting that as something that is sad! This is not the end of the world!
But this video itself proved that when without unifying force of dark lord, these independent orcs are even more chaotic, uncooperative and without agenda while they are still very much naturally evil without need for influence of dark lord. If anything, I'd expect Adar's orcs to behave more like the orcs from watchtower in LOTR where they were slaughtering each other. Tbh, I doubt there wouldn't be an orc trying to murder Adar and take his position if they were not ruled by fear. Jealousy and desire are strong in all orcs.
Matt from Nerd of the Rings contends that the show should focus on telling the story and not waste time on what is merely an interesting philosophical point. While he's allowed to have his priorities, I totally disagree. Christopher Tolkien detested the Peter Jackson movies, asking "where is the philosophy?" The show is absolutely right to spend all of 5 seconds in this scene to invite us to discuss Tolkien’s philosophy and themes. The scene asks us to reckon with issues such as: - are Orcs, or anything else, absolutely and irredeemably evil? (Tolkien says no, many times) - Should we have pity for wretched, evil creatures (Tolkien clearly says yes, cf. Gollum, and his passages on the corruption of Elves into Orcs) - Is anything evil by birth? (Tolkien believes evil comes from a fall, and in the words of Elrond, "Nothing is evil in the beginning.") The scene does not imply that Orcs aren't evil. But there is a vast gulf between evil, and absolute evil. The scene only points out that absolute evil does not exist for Tolkien, and asks you to wrestle with that fact, as Tolkien did. It invites us to have this conversation. However, most people, including Matt, miss that discussion because they are sidetracked by "is this a good adaptational choice?"
Great video! I think the depiction in the show is both lore accurate and much more interesting than having again the same power ranger level villains as always. You do have a great point of this not being a central theme in the Rings original material, but it's nice to see how things would actually happen in that time.
Additionally, I should point out that even the most violent peoples in human history have had loving families. Mothers care for their young, and want to see them succeed. That does not mean they won't use their kids to gain power, or train them to be aggressive, sneaky, and violent. They will be trained that power is a zero-sum game, they will backstab people outside of their family unit or older relates to gain their titles and power. Mothers will kill competitors to them and their kids without thought. However, the fact that Azog and Bolg didn't kill each other means that orcs can feel loyalty to one another. They might not be hugging each other and talking about their feelings, but it is clear father taught son what he knew and set him up to inherit his power.
Even in texas chainsaw massacre the serial killer family takes care of their own. Having family doesn't equate to beign less evil. I don't think spending 10s in orc "culture" will make that much of a difference. They can still brkng good haraddrim anyway
I'm totally NOT watching RoP S2, I just wanted to chime in on the topic that only Iluvatar has life-creating powers, which is not true, since Aule created the dwarves in secret and Yavanna created the Ents, so there was nothing really preventing Melkor from creating living beings, except Tolkien himself who put limits on what Melkor could do so that evil didn't look omnipotent. It's not necessarily a contradiction, is more like a "I don' think so" creative decision.
I don't think there's anything negative about the portrayal of a nuclear orc family. While it's probably a bit of a stretch to evoke the idea of a nuclear family, I don't think it's out of the realms of possibility for orcs to love (on some level) members of their own kind and their offspring. Adar holds affection for his "children", again, on some level. What's important to keep in mind is this scene was only a few seconds long. It's not as though massive amounts of mileage or energy were put into this perspective scenery - it's simply a blunt, on the nose way of implicating the 'yes, orcs have babies and therefore affection' idea onto the viewer. And that's okay. To nuance this idea further and offer analysis into domestic dynamics would take more mileage and energy which, as Nerd says, isn't really worth it. Orc nuclear family is fine for some mindscape expansion, as long as you're open to getting the gist/the show itself.
I think all different ways Tolkien tried to imagine orcs shows that this question of orc nature is not easy to answer. He's essentially struggling with the problem of evil + the question of nature vs. nurture at the same time : two of the hardest condrums humans have ever considered. I do think it was genius of him to respond to questions as if he had observed the history of Middle Earth and was just trying, like his readers, to explain what he observed.
Thanks for bringing this up. I've seen youtubers (whose jobs are based on knowing tolkiens material) scoff at the scene and say, "that's not how orcs are made". Even though the scene with Saruman was a movie invention, a lot of people see that as the way orcs come to be. I understand people not liking the show, it does make huge lore changes. But for me, I can watch it and enjoy it in a vacuum without raging over lore changes. I'm not gonna lie, I do wish I was seeing a book-accurate version, cause it would be better that way. But I'm not about to set up my tripod and yell into a youtube video for two hours about it
Well, those guys likely don’t watch the show for entertainment, just to have an excuse to rant. Let’s face it, there’s like three options for how orcs are made: the show version, the mud pits, or (God forbid) the “Goblin Slayer” version. And if people want that last version they are sick in the head and clearly don’t understand Tolkien.
I'd love the show to pivot into an Orc sitcom. Daddy Orc finding it difficult holding-down a job looting and pillaging. Mammy Orc constantly redecorating the family grotto to keep-up with the Mizhnaks next door. Teen Daughter Orc staying out far too late with her friends. Young, intelligent Son Orc, innocently questioning every facet of the Orc lifestyle. Such potential ...
I don't think the Orc family has shown them as sympathetic. It explains their motivation to be free of Sauron and make their own homeland. The Orc raising a child Orc as his heir would make sense to be protective in such a brutal setting, otherwise no Orcs would survive childhood. Sauron reenslaving the Orcs under his will will happen very fast.
I think orc families make perfect sense. From what we've seen of orcs, even with a strong leader like Adar or Sauron to give them orders, they could have never worked together in organized groups without some sense of community and kinship. Besides, caring for one's mate and offspring is a trait found throughout the animal kingdom, so it wouldn't be accurate to say it humanized them.
I don't think the show portrays Orcs in a significantly positive way. Don't remember them expressing any pity or remorse or other "good" impulse. Even their distrust of Sauron is not a matter of morality or will to independence, but of which somewhat equally evil leader they will follow. They do breed but so do a lot of evil people.
In the books, it was clear that the orcs hated and feared Sauron and the Nazgul. Additionally, they did not want to be in or under their command. They also avoided man and elfs and would only confront them enmass if there was something to gain. This may be too much to detail in an 8 episode show.
Excellent video mate, I'm completely okay with the idea of Redeemable Orcs, but that feels much more like a 4th Age idea, after the destruction of the Ring where they would be free of Dark Lords
My only real problem with the orc family depiction is that they were shown as Family units. I totally accept that they could establish family units, but I don’t think in their current state shown they would.
But that's your opinion based on what you believe is plausible. Most people objecting are literally saying it's impossible and Tolkien wrote explicitly that this can't happen. Which isn't the case.
@@isaacm2374 totally agree, I personally feel like it’s incredibly unlikely given the nature of Orcs at the time, but certainly not impossible given tolkiens writing Also it was such a tiny scene that I missed it on first watch so I’m not sure why it’s getting blown out of proportion. The barrowwights are a much bigger deal IMO
I think what upsets people so much about this is that orcs are a good "irredeemable evil" creature that heroes can mow down without any moral quandries. Some DnD players have expressed similar issues when they did the same with orcs and goblins.
I don't see the orc depiction in RoP problematic and I like it. I don't think there is any attempt to show them in a sympathetic light, only that they also can have agency of their own, not just being an instrument of Sauron. Nothing in the show suggests that orcs are not evil. Yes, they have families and take care of their young... but that is the natural instinct, not an act of goodness. Evil people can have families they love and take care of. Evil spiders in Tolkien's works also have offspring and provide for them. All the show showed is that orcs want to be able to raise their young, not that they want to be good. The show shows no Orc to be repetent or redeemable. They are happy to kill men, elves and horses. Yes, they want a homeland, they want to raise their young and they want to be away from Sauron. But they will still be evil. There wouldn't be any redemption. Imagine if it all worked out as Adar wanted... Mordor without Sauron. Orcs would still be evil. They would still attack human lands of future Gondor, loot, kill and pillage.
Here’s my thought, as a WW1 vet Tolkien probably wrote about the orcs comparing them to his enemies during his time served. And I think as a write and poet that he would be able to understand the duality of, just because they are my enemies doesn’t mean that they too have love and children. That they also have lives beyond the battle field. Which military doctrine teaches the other.
This brings the following from Morgoth's Ring to mind: "...though of necessity, being the fingers of the hand of Morgoth, they must be fought with the utmost severity, they must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty and treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost. This was the teaching of the Wise, though in the horror of the War it was not always heeded."
For sure! Just look at the veteran interview clips from Band of Brothers. If I remember correctly, one of them even went as far to say if they hadn’t been at war, the soldiers he was fighting and killing could have become his friends; laughing over stories and having a beer over talking about sports.
I don't think a single example of an orc with a better nature than most is entirely off the table. I like to think the orc in the show is an exception rather than the rule.
I think that showing an orc baby and showing Adar's efforts to create an independent orcish kingdom are very poignant when layered on top of Lord of the Rings because we will never find out whether the orcs could have climbed out of the pit Morgoth dug for them and become something more.
The fundamental misunderstanding that makes me not even bother to criticize Rings of Power's portrayal of orcs, elves and dwarves, or any other thing, is that they demystify the entire universe. Tolkien's universe is fundamentally magical. Elves and dwarves are of course magical, but also nature, geography, everything is sung into existence by the Valar. Remember, in Tolkien's universe this is not just mythology that some people believe in, but the way things actually are. And there are living beings that you can talk to who can attest to that. Gandalf the Gray died in the battle against Baolrogern, but was sent back as Gandalf the White, etc. This is not a situational drama, or a power struggle over who will inherit the farm. I used to work in the kindergarten, and once there was a boy who said "Let's play sharks", and a girl who said "I want to play house". The compromise they reached was that they played shark house. It's just like "house" except everyone has to say "blob blob" and make hand motions like they're swimming. This is just like "Rongs of Power". You take a working fantasy world, turn all the magical beings into nuclear families and run situational drama across the board. Everyone has the same conflicts, joys and dialogues, but with different makeup. It's just boring. So… do I have an opinion on “orc families”? No, I'm not interested, and I can't wait for the series to crash. The sooner I can go back to enjoying "TOLKIE'S" universe. For now it's just a source of irritation, like someone who keeps my favorite bench in the park busy even though they could be sitting anywhere, or someone who is too loud on the phone on the bus, but not so loud that I need to say something. I don't react to dark-skinned dwarves or elves, or dwarven women without beards. All this completely unproblematic. But one thing that shines through is that neither the writers nor the actors like Tolkien, and then the question becomes why. The show is obviously not aimed at Tolkien fans, or nerds in general. So who have they really thought of to look at the misery. Those who are meant to identify with the characters are not people who normally like fantasy. It doesn't make sense.
Sympathetic Orcs works in this adaptation for one simple reason: they have a loving lordly father to guide them in Adar. His death will be their doom. Without him they will have no guidance and Sauron and Saruman will step in to exploit their nature.
This exactly explains why they added that into this show… adar is a caring father who wants more for his folk but after his passing is when all hell breaks loose for orcs…
Yeah that makes sense though they are still behaving badly! But I doubt that the Orcs ever saw themselves as the "bad guys". People still do terrible, evil things while simultaneously caring about their offspring or their legacy
I can agree with this. Plus, orcs aren’t all that intelligent, so having a caring leader who still retains his intelligence as an elf (likely one who was raised in Valinor) and has the experience of war-forged Uruk would contribute to this difference.
To add to the mix - perhaps that family unit isn’t palatable for people, but (1) Tolkien purposefully didn’t want to address this subject, as let’s face it, it would result in a different view of the orcs in his first runs of his books, and (2) if there are pregnant orcs and orc babies, how does orc society stop these getting eaten before the babies are grown up?
Honestly this is the first time I am hearing about this discourse. I seen the orc's and thought oh look a baby and that's it. And I dislike the worst show of all time takes. It really is not that bad. Anyone who says that it ruins Tolkien's works are just being over dramatic. Those work's are still there and will never change. I love all the books, Peter Jackson's films and I like this. What surprises me most is people saying it's the worst thing ever but still watch it. Don't like it. Don't watch it. 😊
Honestly I love orcs, whether they're savage monsters or sympathetic brutes. Exploring different sides of orcs in different franchises is what keeps them interesting. That said, orc families are probably the least of the show's problems.
I was thinking that they were perhaps showing that moment so that when Sauron ultimately dominates them that we'll see them start to become more blood-lust and less concerned about their own families, etc.
To criticize your statement that we never see orcs find redemption, well, this is a small window where they see an opportunity to self govern out from under the hand of Morgoth or Sauron. Don’t worry, Sauron will be back.
The orcs being shown in a sympathetic light is probably one of the best concepts the show puts forward. A race created through torture should get some sympathy.
My biggest takeaway from what you've said is, will be. I think showing a progression to this irredeemable evil is okay. Showing a handful of them as you know family units are those who do want to just live in peace at this period in time is okay. We know where they end up.
There's a single line in the two towers when merry and pippin are given orc medicine, and tolkein says that it showed that there was an unknown culture and wisdom in orc lore. Maybe I'm just over thinking it, but it always seemed to me that tolkein was showing that this evil race isn't all as bad as he made them out to be.
Tolkien didn't want Orcs to be monolithically evil. He wanted to add good orcs (ones free of Sauron & working against him) but he could not fit them into story.
You are missing the point completely. Culture and wisdom are not good or bad by definition. Cannibals also have culture. And obviously there is a lot of wisdom about Sauron in the orc lore. So Tolkien never tried to describe orcs as wise, good and highly cultural civilization. He just pointed orcs have own culture, different from the other races and their culture has a lot of wisdom about evil.
The way I see this going in rings of power is that right now we have some less extreme orcs that are free of a master but still mostly evil. Once Sauron takes back full control of the orcs all that free will will be wiped out. One theme that keeps on reoccurring is the power over flesh so at some point sauron is going to take full control.
Or maybe Sauron and Galadriel will fall in love and have children. As obviously according to the show orcs elect their leaders and can kill Sauron, which natural form is black comedy goo, so the showrunners derailed completely off the lore created by Tolkien. I really doubt the scriptwriters ever read anything written by Tolkien. They watched the Jackson's movies obviously, but that is all. As the entire plot is trying to create very stupid twists and to answer questions, that are already answered. We know how Sauron came to power, and he never been killed by orcs, as that is simply impossible. Gandalf never had amnesia. Orcs never been good and loving. Harfoots were smaller in stature and had a browner complexion, they were not black, multiracial, or white. The show completely missing the point elves, humans, hobbits, dwarfs, orcs and etc. are different races. That is why there are not black elves or Asian elves, because that will be like white black, or black Chinese - simply stupid. And we see in the show only orcs as different race, for some reason there are not black orcs, white orcs and Asian orcs. So they are trying to humanize orcs, but turned all other races into humans de facto, except the orcs. So obviously and proven by their own actions, the showrunners are racists. And etc. There are so many inconsistencies, specially with the timeline. The show is a bad parody of Tolkien's work, and very expensive parody.
It's very worth noting that "taking pleasure in evil deeds" is something that many humans can be accused of. It's not an inherent condemnation of an entire species.
For me, the only plausibility in the RoP depiction is in the argument that these are Orcs much closer to their original “corruption” by Morgoth. You still have Orcs that remember their past lives, and there is no singular Dark Lord imposing his will on them for generations to ingrain his worldview into them.
My issue isn't that they showed how Orcs have families/children, but they showed them in such a sympathetic light. No orc gives a hoot about their women or kids.
That logically makes no sense whatsoever. If ‘no orc gives a hoot about their women or kids’ then those kids wouldn’t grow up to be men and their race would cease to exist
I think it worked for the specific orc they showed. He was clearly closer to Adar than the others and he might have internalized some of his teachings that go beyond pure violence and hatred. That being said they showed nothing that suggested Orcs have learned to hate the other races any less or that their willingness to commit cruelty to those has diminished.
"the orcs will in the end be brought to serve Sauron" yeah, that's what a tragedy is. I'm glad ROP is exploring this concept. It shows how evil/harmdoing comes about in ourselves, often a result of domination, lack of alternatives, then force of habit.
I think it was a good way to show that the orcs are fighting for something, not just warring for the sake of it. I really didn't mind that scene at all as it didn't make me sympathetic toward the orcs. All it really did for me was give a Lil incite into Addar and his tactics. He might not have the mind-bending powers of a dark lord, but experience and knowledge are the ways he gains a following. All I was thinking was that quote you made from Tolkien about them not being irredeemable. He couldn't justify an entire race being evil, because in the end, it goes against the Christian morals he had woven into the world.
I think people ignore the obvious, these orcs are not yet controlled by Sauron, they are with Adar someone who is much more sympathetic to them and treats them like his children. We can see this in the first season, so it makes sense that it allows them to have normal families. when Suaron takes control he will take that away from them since for him they are simply cannon fodder the scene is perfectly justified in the context of the series you have to be stupid not to understand that
This would make more sense if Morgoth didn't exist and the orcs were presented as a race with cultures not much different from other races, but who are enslaved and corrupted by Sauron. But they've been serving Morgoth forever already - since their creation - even in RoP's own telling. And it's not like Adar had them civilised and living in cities, doing honest jobs for a wage and going to school, having hobbies- they're still a horde, slaughtering and being slaughtered...
@@trevorbyrne4668 The orcs feared Morgoth and Sauron, they are also not afraid of Adar and he treats them as equals, which is why they must have different behaviors, plus Morgoth's reign ended in the first age, so who knows how long these orcs have been with Adar.
@@giancarlo5945 They're still a horde of scruffy, warlike, sadistic freaks though, even under Adar. Look at how they've been characterised in every scene except that goofy one with the loving orc family. They're brutal slavers, torturers and murderers; they're out randomly shooting horses in one scene. As many others have pointe out, the issue isn't how orcs procreate. It's the typically goofy, inconsistent way the RoP writers deal with their ideas. Suddenly they want to portray orcs as complex, sympathetic beings, so they throw in a scene demonstrating this in the most silly, on the nose way...
In my opinion the main problem is the way they were depicted in the rings of power. I imagine their behaviour more like an animal like urge to breed and using (forcing) their women mainly for that purpose. That would fit their behaviour depoictet by Tolkien. I can't imagine them as a loving family with a male orc that does't want to kill and plunder in a war. 🤨
I quite like this depiction of orcs. In the narrative, recognizing that her enemies are also sentient beings with names and souls rather than cannon fodder is a step on Galadriel’s moral journey, and what I assume will be Sauron’s subjugation of the orcs will emphasize his cruelty. For worldbuilding, I appreciate any effort to show that all the various peoples have some form of functional culture and society, which actually makes them more of a threat than roaming packs of animals. I don’t think the depiction of the family went overboard in showing excessive care or affection.
What's jarring to me is the depiction of a loving family unit. I would think that orc women would have the worse lives imaginable. Basically breeding slaves to create armies. Biologically it would make sense for gestation to be very short, and for orc young to mature quickly during their very harsh childhoods (if you could call it that.)
“Orcs don’t have families, they have broods” If Orcs have families, they aren’t going to be a happy, loving affairs. It’ll be as brutal as every other part of their life.
i think the problem is that they showed it like orcs could have fairly normal family dynamics considering their nature, if they had shown a 'breeding-pit' full of both pregnant female orcs and possibly even females from other races(the real reason i think Tolkien said he didn't want to give to too much thought to the subject considering the different varieties of goblin/orc that all seem to have non-corrupted sentient counterpart that live in similar environments/locations to and are of similar size to those counterparts), then people would have not seen it as athima to WHAT the orcs are. that said it would be distasteful to show such a thing when anyone with half a brain and the desire to can figure out where orcs come from based on context clues.....
The "loving family" aspect is definitely a stretch and one I'm not in love with, but I think making the orcs more complex than simply evil killing machines makes the story that much more interesting, at least to me.
I liked the family unit thing. This is to Obviously put Adar in a position of a savior for them. Sauron knows he cant undermine Adar right now, so once Sauron kills Adar he will promise to “take care” of their orc families in exchange for an army of them, continuing his manipulation of ALL societies in middle earth.
Adar is a made up character, shouldnt even exist, so yeah, the whole show isn't lore and doesn't belong in the Tolkien world, glad you like it though, you do you.
It is frustrating to see people rightly criticize the show, but then show their ignorance and claim to know Tolkien’s canon but miss the mark entirely such as this “Orc women didn’t exist” debacle.
I'm honestly not sure what the big deal is. I still don't see the orcs as sympathetic villains -- but I see them holding on to vestiges of "humanity" (read: desire for home, right to exist) that their elf ancestors surely had long ago. By the time LOTR rolls around that would have been long gone
I have no problem with brief portrayals of orc families… I don’t understand why it’s such a big deal, unless you have a headcanon against it. I also think it would be a mistake to give it further focus. I really think it is shown to generate sympathy for Adar and really isn’t about orcs. The show runners are very invested in trying to make fans root for Adar or at least want him around, since he is their creation. One of the general problems is that many fans have an incomplete picture of the lore and react strongly to things they don’t like regardless of whether it is in keeping with the lore. This is why you see many viewers ignore some of the worst lore violations while getting all hot over stuff they just don’t like.
100% disagree on it missing the mark @NerdoftheRings. You went to great lengths explaining the gray area in Tolkien's own internal debate about the orcs, and it is 100% what the adaptation is exploring. It emboldens the character of Adar and explores these heavy concepts in Tolkien's works about redeemability and virtue. Putting it off onto men (Haradrim/Easterlings/Variags/Numenoreans) would not have been as interesting or philosophically gripping since that is repeatedly explored elsewhere.
As with many of the shows failures, I don't think it's necessarily the idea that's bad but how it's depicted. I find it highly unlikely that Tolkien envisioned the orcs as having children and partners who they care for and even love! I expect he imagined it as at best being animalistic and purely focused on procreation or at worst, exploited and industrialised by Sauron similar to how we do with livestock. I just don't think that love is something he believed they were capable of. And honestly that's how I prefer it. We have plenty of stories where the villains are morally grey or bad only due to a matter of perspective, but I like that in Middle-earth the armies of evil are largely just that - evil. And as you say, the Haradhrim and Easterlings would have been far better alternatives to exploring villains who have been manipulated, coerced, or corrupted by Sauron in a way that would also demonstrate the fall of Numenor. I remember being so excited when Lenny Henry was cast and I assumed we would be exploring those cultures more, perhaps even with him as a blue wizard. I think that's why I find RoP so disappointing - it wastes so many opportunities. (A very small side-point but papa-orc here really makes me appreciate the physical acting in LotR which extended even to the way the orcs moved).
"expected them on being animalistic". you know who is an animal? Humans. Humans are animals, humans are capable of loving their children to outright killing them. I think the whole problem with all this is the inability of the majority of the fan base not seeing who was the author and how he saw the world, it does seep into the books a lot. Arda is the fantasy land of a man who saw the world divided between races, man who saw humans as more than just another animal. it's not surprising that in today's world we see these things being changed on newer adaptations. good example is to se how D&D depiction of orcs and goblins has changed from beings of pure evil (pulled from Tolkien's work) to beings like any human, elf, drawf or halfling.
@@pablopandolfo8446 It's perhaps not surprising but that doesn't mean it's desirable. So many of the show's problems derive from the writers attempts to change what Tolkien wrote because they think their version is better. Maybe the guy who created the most influential and detailed fantasy world to date had some idea what he was doing? Maybe there's nothing wrong with the baddies just being bad?
@@EstyVids Except mythology, royal genealogy and some laguage fun facts, there is nothing detailed about Tolkien's world. We know of shire and meet a bunch of aristocrats, that's it. We know pretty much nothing about the life of regular people except hobbits and one family in Minas Tirith. Everyday life, economics, logistics? Tolkien didn't care about that at all. The other thing is that they do not change the lore that much. It's just the show is bad. The movies changed some stuff as well but no cares because they were written better despite the fact for example Arwen was totally busted or Aragorn's character was heavily rewritten.
Honestly, I hate how in the last 10 years there isn't a single villain in mainstream media that's simply evil. Part of Middle Earth's charm is this clear distinction between good and evil, and I hate they're trying to blur the lines like that. All in all, you have confirmed that orc women and orc babies exist, but this still doesn't justify depicting them as "caring and loving parents". Kinda contradicts their whole concept of being evil to their core despite their good beginnings as a race.
In my own headcannon I like to think they're effectively immortal, as elves are, since one of their potential backstories is being created from tortured elves.
![[[OFFICIAL MV]] เอิ้นขวัญให้อ้าย- อ๊ะอาย สกุณาพร | ค่ายเพลงเป็นหนึ่ง](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/83x6L3X3qh0/mqdefault.jpg)
Personally, I think Haradrim and Easterlings would have been far more effective as sympathetic villains, but what do you think? Does this concept resonate with you? Or does it miss the mark?
@@NerdoftheRings it’s terrible. This whole show is. As soon as they introduced black hobbits and elves I knew we were in for a ride 😵💫
It's alright, I do agree that the men who served morgoth would have been better (we had a bit of it in season 1)
Sadly there are alot of people just trying to push they're own agenda's who have little knowledge of tolkiens work (both in support of and condemning the show)
I think it's great. The WOW movie had an amazing orc storyline. By far, it was the most interesting and entertaining part of the movie.
@@MrRayRockstar LoTR and Warcraft are completely different works.
@@Dumbledore6969x why would diverse casting in a fantasy setting make you think that?
There's nothing about employing black people that made the showrunners play fast and loose with the source material.
Child orc at dinner time:
"FATHER! is there meat on the menu today?"
Father Orc: "It was off the menu for the last week, but guess what...."
@@A_Random_Person27MEAT'S BACK ON THE MENU BOY
" can we eat mom"? " she looks fresh 😍😂
This show is trash. Tolkien said orcs were evil creatures. Not mommy and daddy staying home to take care of little jr and play ball in the fields of gorgoroth. Get real
"Sure, you look fresh, kid!" (I feel any orc child asking this question would only get to ask once.)
I don’t think orc women and children are a problem. I think loving and devoted orc parents are.
The way all the Orcs act, you can tell they were brought up in a rough, unsupportive family 😅
They're inherently evil so yes.
@@SirBoggins Did you even watch the video? Orcs are not "inherently" evil because Tolkien, a devout catholic, despised the idea that an entire race can be wholly evil.
I don't feel a "love" when I watch this scene. just a creature with babies.
we saw a male check on a female and infant for less than 3 seconds. I'd hardly call that 'loving.'
Even scorpions and rats care for their young. It's one of the top three most universal instinct across all life forms. Yet orcs cannot...?
Nothing about Orcs screams "Monogamy", but now that you mention it, they were all held together by a Ring.
Grade A comment 😂
Bravo sir 🎉
Some of them but not before it existed.
Wasn't it Margoth who made Orcs?
Truly it is so. And just like any dutiful father, he left this plan of existence to allow his children to be bond eternally to his personal assistant with a beautiful ring. So admirable.
I think the complaints stem from the “loving family unit” not so much the orcs having sexual relations with female orcs.
Yeah, they are orcs and have grown in a war and violence ridden environment. The writers really didn't think this through
Which is idiotic cuz they're twisted elves lol
It was a 2 second clip showing an orc father, mother and child. It didn't show "a loving family" beyond the orcs apparently expressing concern for their progeny; something pretty much every mammal does.
@@davidjones272 how do you know Orcs are mammals?
@@davidjones272 firstly, she had completed pregnancy and had the baby.
Second: The scene was obviously meant to illustrate an orcs concern for the wellbeing of his female partner and their baby orc. He obviously has quite a bit of affection for them if he’s even superficially concerned enough to talk to the “father of all orcs” about it.
Honestly I’d rather watch orcs just be taken out of holes in the ground than watch orcs doing the deed.
Or maybe like some beasts, living in holes or like a tribal bestial-like people living in huts and all sons of an overlord who gets breeding rights out of strength and combat. Like lions, the dominant kills the offspring of other males... that would be badass. Thats how I roll my DnD orcs. But I like the Warhammer 40K hypothesis too. lol.
Thanks for the wholesome images this sentence has conjured up in my mind
For real. Only Japanese high fantasy can make such "thing"
You have lots of Hentai for that.
I swear everyone forgot the two towers
The issue was not showing an orc mother & baby, but showing them as a family, they wouldn't have any such social unit, no warmth, no care, only would focus on growing them as soon as possible to make them killers. The fact that they created this poor orc family that needs independence & peace, essentially as victims, ruins the lore. I think most people hated this point, not whether they were mating or not.
Exactly this.
ACCURATE
@@bvraeqvete wait ..weren't orcs at one point just straight up dark skinned people...
But we don't know this for sure as Tolkien never explored how Orc Families operate. Evil people can still have loving families within the context of themselves.
Agreed, that’s my issue with the ORC family.
Haradrim/Easterlings would’ve not only been better candidates for exploring this type of moral grey area but also would’ve allowed for diversity inclusion within the existing canon. Plus it would’ve been a really fresh, exciting storyline for hardcore/casual fans alike.
A rare win-win-win situation.
Oh totally :)
Unfortunately writers and show runners are not that smart.
@@CVoYager Yep, that's unfortunately true
When the casting was announced I was so excited that they were going to expand on these largely unexplored cultures. I imagined Lenny Henry as one of the Blue Wizards struggling against Sauron manipulating their largely justified resentment and hatred of the Numenoreans, or perhaps he was going to play one of their leaders who would be lured into accepting one of the nine rings and slowly fading to the will of Sauron. Instead, he was cast as the leader of a psychopathic band of not-Hobbits.
Yes, but inclusivity and diversity is not really about representation. It's about ego and who does what(similar to how modern feminists aren't really about 50 / 50, but more about matriarchy and giving all the "nice jobs" to women). Ofc that with those two regions, they would have all the freedom of representation they wanted, but that's not the point. Them "leaving their mark on Tolkien(and history)" is the point. And as such, ofc they need to strongarm their feeble ideas where they don't belong.
Again, this returns us to the "how long do Orcs live" question. Since Gorbag and Shagrat CLEARLY remember a time "before the big bosses" they must have been around since before 2942 3rd Age when Sauron returned to Barad Dur. This would make them both OLDER than 77 years of the Sun. The Great Goblin and his cronies in his Throne Room instantly recognize Glamdring and Orcrist ON SIGHT despite neither being seen wielded for the last 6,462 years. If anything this gives credence to the "ruined form of Elves" theory on Orc longevity. Alternatively, Tolkien didn't have time to retcon things before he died as he did with changing the "Riddles in the Dark" chapter in the Hobbit.
Two thoughts, for the orcs talking about the old days, it could be from their fathers or grandfathers who lived in that manner before the return of Sauron, that or the orcs were more relaxed before the start of the war and were a bit more independent until they were all marshaled by the dark lord. As for Orcrist and Glamdring which are both 1st Age Weapons, they may have been heirlooms that were used by elves in Eriador for slaying orcs throughout the 2nd and 3rd ages before they joined the trolls' stash of loot. In which case the tales and memories of those blades could be much more fresh than the wars of the First Age.
@@dallinadams9422 If elves recovered those swords in the second age they would have been kept instead of being in a trolls cave. IRT memories from orc ancestors, Gorbag clearly is speaking about HIS own life ergo he’s at least 90 years old.
@@johnmooers5594 Could've been found by humans, perhaps..? I don't see how the trolls could get their hands on them otherwise.
I think that the goblins recognise it because those weapons may have reached a level of infamy within the orc society as being orc killers, not so much because the orcs were alive to see those weapons 6000 years ago. Not only that but the goblin king likely sensed old elven magic that would have been used in the creation of the weapons. On your other point, the date that Sauron returns to Barad Dur is not necessarily the date that he consolidates all his power and rounds up his armies, he likely already had a sizable force in Barad Dur even before his return, and only a few decades later when he feels like its time to prepare for an offensive is when he calls for all the orcs of mordor to come under his banner.
I love the conversation that Sam overhears in ROTK between the two orcs which just for me personally really did a lot to make them seem a bit more sympathetic and relatable
This is actually a really, really good point. The degree of dialogue between orcs in that scene makes it very clear that the orcs have a mindset which is capable of conceptualizing self-determination or individualistic desire and war weariness. Their conversation is more comparable to soldiers in deployment than mindless drones. Corrupted as they may be, it is still possible that they retain certain human-like elements.
I really feel like the wild hatred of Rings of Power comes often (not always, but sometimes) from people who are jumping on the bandwagon and assuming that because it came from Amazon it must be bad - many of whom may not have read the books personally, or even (in some cases) watched the shows for themselves.
@@RaccoonRepublicI agree. It just feels like low hanging fruit
@@RaccoonRepublic I recently reread that part and it seems obvious that the orks are more victims of sauron than evil creatures. It explicitly states that most of saurons servants are against their will serving him. I think that's not just talking about his human servants.
the issue is not the reproducing. the issue was they have a loving family.
Yes I would agree with that and also add that it’s more than just the whole family aspect. I think it’s more of a it is not in their nature to just be like ya I don’t wanna fight anymore I just want to live and be free. Like it said in the letter they are creatures who enjoy fighting with not just the free people but also themselves. They are very self centered and cruel beings who enjoy committing wicked deeds, taking pleasure in the act. Maybe they aren’t all as cruel and wicked at heart and maybe if they could grow in an environment that was not either the strong survive and the weak die or under the command of a dark lord maybe just maybe they would have a chance. Though when they are seen as the enemies of the free people and the policy is basically kill on site it is very unlikely that such an event would come to pass.
Hello there!
Nazis loved their children
While there's no denying that Orc-women exist, I think it's much more likely that Morgoth and Sauron would have kept them specifically for breeding. Basically, they were breeding slaves. This would explain how they were able to grow their armies so exponentially.
I think when Sauron takes over by the end of season 2. That's exactly what Sauron will do.
At this point neither of them are in charge in the show.
@@godzillamaster34 Independent orcs are no kinder or gentler than their dominated kind and are repeatedly said to hate each other and enjoy inflicting evil. Whatever a natural orc life cycle would look like it wouldn't be loving or protective
@@godzillamaster34 Sauron will take over by the end of the season. He's probably going to kill Adar.
@@S.allamerican yeah I’d hope so lol. It’d be kinda weird imo for Sauron to be stood up by some orcs for more than this season.
"No one would see him, no one would notice him, till he had his fingers on their throat. Only a few hours ago he had worn it, and caught a small goblin-imp. How it squeaked! He still had a bone or two left to gnaw, but he wanted something softer."
The Hobbit, Riddles in the Dark
Gollum when he lived in the mountain with the orcs. He hated them too.
Goblins aren't orcs and never have been.
@@camojoe83 Tolkien said they were two different words for the same creature.
@@camojoe83 they are in this universe.
@@Franzsyztem i don't believe that's so. Why bother to make the distinction if they're the same? They were clearly different in the books, anyway. Mentioned alongside each other certainly, but always individually.
As you say, depicting the Herodrim and Easterlings would be a far better option than the Orcs. I highly doubt Amazon is going to do this though unfortunately
I bet they're under the impression they're doing something bold and brash by trying to do Warcraft orc humanizing characterization and lore situations for Lotr orcs, disregarding the world of difference between the depictions of the species
@@kennethsatria6607 Probably, however what can you do? I just hope that they don't make out the Stranger to be Gandalf. I think if they do i'll be done with the show
I feel like depecting sympathetic orcs in tolkeins world could only really work in the fourth age after the fall of Sauron. No more big bosses to serve, the orcs are finally free of evil influence and can live in peace alongside men and elves
@@Almost_a_hero the orcs are actually based on transgender people so naturally they can’t be redeemed and instead have to be entirely destroyed to save the world from their blight.
@@Almost_a_hero Thing is that wouldn't work unfortunately because in the lore I believe the Orcs died out after Sauron was defeated
I think these writers going out of their way to try and humanize nearly irredeemable monsters is extremely odd, unproductive, uninteresting and unnecessary. Just, why? It feel like an ulterior motive more than actual story telling or world building.
I think the character of Adar is important here. While in proximity to Adar they may be trying to emulate him and his love for his children the orcs. Once Sauron kills Adar it will be interesting to see how the orcs change.
Fully agree with this. This is probably the closest to a united orc community as we're ever going to see, all held together by a father figure. It would make sense for the concept of affection to stem from such a period in orc history
Great video Matt ❤ no click bait titles, no exaggerated thumbnails, just true Tolkien.
Your videos always clearly show that you respect, know and understand Tolkien. Mindless negativity about everything these days is so trending, it’s refreshing to hear your thoughts. Keep it up!
Couldn’t agree more! Way to do your own thing and really know the source material
I've thought of it more as an issue of these Orcs being less fallen than the Orcs we see in Lord of the Rings. They are led by a first-generation Orc, are 3000+ years prior to the War of the Ring, are not enthralled by the One Ring, and have come out of generations separated from both Morgoth and Sauron. They are clearly attempting to chart a path of their own, and I think we can see the glimmer of light that will be snuffed out.
I swear if I see an Orc baby in a high chair next episode, I’m going to lose it😂😂
"For myself, I pity even his (Sauron's) slaves" --Gandalf the White, THE RETURN OF THE KING. The whole idea that Orcs even in part are corrupted Men and/or Elves fills me with horror and pity. Tolkien was not someone who lacked nuance, who thought no evil could be redeemed or that no good could not be corrupted. It is an essential part of his legendarium.
I think one of the most common misreadings of Tolkien is that he is interested in black and white good and evil. Anything we can see to complicate that (mid)reading is a welcome addition in my view.
If anything, seeing a devoted orc family makes what we know about their more total corruption later even more tragic.
Side note: I don’t know that “loving” would even be the right word here - does an orc father “love” his child or just want his child to succeed and carry on some lineage?
The thing is though is that in rings of power the orcs don’t just express an unwillingness to serve Sauron they actually go ahead and try to outright kill him.
In the books Sauron is quite able to inspire fear and control over them that so much so that it’s never written that orcs have ever directly rebelled against him. Orcs don’t really have a choice of leadership when there’s a dark lord to control them.
And also the idea of orcs having loving families like humans and elves is just too much. They should have tried to come up with some kind of system or behaviour that matches the cruelty and carelessness that orcs possess.
That scene was like how many seconds long but i'm amazed at how much controversy that little scene is to everyone, like it's sacrilege of the highest order - oh no its not Canon down with Amazon - gods its so taxing to imagine people watching a show to only find faults.
The idea that they would try to kill him is stupid, but it is definitely canonically accurate that the orcs hated both Sauron and Morgoth.
Another comment points out that the Orcs follow "Adar", who has established himself as a father of all Orcs due to his being an original Orc- an Elf corrupted by Morgoth. If the Orcs apparently respect this dude based on the fact that they are his progeny then they must acknowledge some sort of famillial connection with their own off-spring, so an Orc dad acknowledging his Orc wife and child seems to follow the logic.
I love Adar and the Orcs, they look awful compared to the movies but I like where they're going and I'm interested to see what's going to be explored with them before things fall back in with the lore.
I'll argue that Adar loves his Orcs and the Orcs love Adar. In such a dynamic, I think it makes Sauron even more evil due to the fact that he will stamp this sort of thing out. The Orcs are happy under Adar, and Sauron will take that away.
This feels like a similar debate that has been going on within the Dungeons & Dragons community for decades now. Within that community, orcs and goblins have pretty solidly been promoted from simply servants of evil, to fully realized people with their own free will, as capable of being good or evil as men, elves, dwarves and hobbits.
and that's good.
@@pablopandolfo8446 and that's bad, just let bad guys be bad guys
Or to each their own @@f.b.l.9813
Hell, B2 had wives/consorts for one of the chieftains and that was 1986
Orcs have always had free will and are capable of being good and evil. It was simply far more skewed towards evil because orcs in lore were created specifically by Gruumsh to serve as soldiers for his eternal blood feud with Corellon and thus he made sure that their minds and cultures were heavily seeped in his influence so that they had a proclivity for violence and an innate hatred for elves. This concept was drawn from Tolkien's own depiction of orcs.
It makes zero sense for an evil god to allow their creation anonymity in any appreciable degree so you'd have to change that lore and consequently change everything about orc history. At which point can you still call them orcs? They are totally different creatures that just happen to share the same name. In my opinion, that ruins the most interesting thing about the orcs and just makes them another fantasy re-skinned human. There is so much potential for exploring the nature of evil that just goes to waste with the new changes as there is no longer any controversy to make you think more deeply about the topic.
On a related note about Haradrim and Easterlings being represented, i don't understand the point of sending the harfeet and the Stranger to Rhûn and not showing a single Easterling who isn't stereotypically evil looking yet (assuming that's the direction they're going with the dark wizard). And i really don't wanna drag the representation/diversity nonsense into this conversation, but I'd much rather have seen just normal ass inhabitants of Rhûn played by Asian actors instead of multiethnic Stoor hobbits with Celtic names (which they'd only acquire by the time they settle near Dunland, possibly in the Third Age, far from Rhûn). I'm just saying, they're really, really missing an opportunity by not showing us more Easterlings and Blue Wizards.
exactly, the issue is not that there is diversity or representation, is that the diversity and representation given makes no sense in either a fictional or real-world sense, while there are many occasions to portray diversity? The way ethnic diversity is pictured in RoP doesn't make any sense, while other fantasy franchises (GoT, HotD) manage it without issue, which helps in the suspension of disbelief.
"The Dark Wizard" really exploring the nuance of good and evil with that one. The cretins who write this garbage couldn't even just commit to a name. No, no... can't be doing without pointless mystery-boxes to drag out accross the whole season. Is the "Strager" Gandalf - or Grand Elf, or Gand Elf... Who cares.
I'm hearing a lot of complaints that the issue is not Orcs mating, but the depiction of a loving family unit.
Two points in RoP's defence, here. First, it is really one small visual scene, we cant exactly judge how loving or cohesive the family unit is because he puts his arms over them and acts kind of fatherly. We're not seeing them walking the dog at the park and talking cautiously about a home loan.
Second, these are Adar's orcs. His whole gimmick is that he's a liberator of the orcs. He's literally called Father, it does make sense that some kind of family bond, even in a skin deep form, could exist and be promoted under his leadership. I actually thought this scene works precisely because it shows what's at stake for Adar's plan, and how much worse it will be for the Orcs under Sauron.
I've been very disappointed with RoP, but I do not care one bit about this ten second clip of an orc family. The discourse around it has been nuts
This is the only valid response, no other notes.
Trust the reactionary neckbeards to overreact and poison any potentially interesting discourse, as always. There's an entire cottage industry online to feed them.
I imagine a story, The Redemption of the Orcs, and it takes place long after the destruction of the Ring, and orcs have slowly settled and calmed down, like the taint of evil is slowly leaving them.
I feel depicting Orcs as loving parents goes too far. No doubt there is likely some level of parenting but I always imagined it could be incredibly dangerous to be a young orc much in the way that we have species where having siblings is dangerous competition, to survive by all means or become food. In such wicked creatures as they are generally shown to be, I can't imagine consent existing for either orc males or females either so it's possible that it would contribute to why there are such crazy huge numbers of orcs in middle earth. Well that and of course slaves as well obvipusly contribute a lot of the numbers
Agreed. I think orcs, given their selfish nature for self preservation would probably eat their young----and their young would be prone to murdering their own parents and siblings for sustenance or even sport. I don't see them as creatures engaging delayed gratification to invest in their future.
Well Azog and Bolg seemed to have a good working relationship.
@@ahmedshaharyarejaz9886 To be fair that was Movie only as in the Books we only ever learn of Bolg when Azog was long dead. And even then, who knows how many of his siblings Bolg might have beaten, killed and eaten to grow strong enough and earn the "respect" of his father, which basically just meant to be his most important servant.
@Steckdose_ yeah I got the movies and books mixed up on that. Even so, if orcs operate on rules of might makes right, then they would still have some machaivellian social darwinistic approach to families and kinship. Their would still be Orcs and Orc mates, Orc offspring. Likely, these offspring would fend for themselves as imps until they were worthy of their sire's attention as potential tools for his own rise in the tribes ranks. And Orc females do exist, probably as near slaves and actual slaves, being used and traded around between the most powerful Orcs and being hoarded by the Strong away from the weak. It's diabolical, but it probably is the closest lore accurate approximation of what Orc kin groups look and act like.
It would be much better to see some unique orcish culture here no doubt. I think amazon really messed up by giving this a kind of just modern nuclear family vibe. Some kind of basic martial culture thing would have gone so far to make people not have an issue with it. And I think people's issue with it is vibes mostly.
It's just annoying that they try to make this a lore inaccuracy thing.
It seems so out of character for orcs to be this sympathetic. I generally saw them as the hand of evil in middle earth and they played a really good part in the story like that.
maybe its just these specific orc characters?
Could be a unique case maybe
soon you'll see orc porn
I always saw Orcs as just violent thugs rather than evil per se. They were led by Sauron to do evil, but ultimately they just wanted to pillage. You can pillage and still love your family.
Probably it's because they are under the rule of adar and not sauron
Did you even watch the video?
I think the larger point, is that people don't want to acknowledge the fact that orcs are reddemable. For many its easier to have them as mindless evil ghouls. Just shows that for some, The Other, (to use verbage from other works) is always going to be evil, no need to learn about them.
Also, if Morgoth and Sauron are redeemable, then orcs can be too. Remember, although Morgoth refused to be redeemed, Sauron after Morgoth's defeat was sorry, and its believed at first he actually ment it
Agree.
I think Tolkien said that they were redeemable by Illuvitar but not redeemable in their current form on Middle Earth
Morgoth and Sauron are divine spirits which chose evil. They chose it, so they can be redeemed (you know, free will). Orcs, whether they breed or are "made", didn't choose to be, which is their tragedy, and the f^^^^d up part of Tolkien's work, the thing which I always had an issue with reading the books : evil is to them as water is to fish. And that is just horrible to even think of, creatures corrupted so thoroughly they have no choice whatsoever.
@bonhommierr1501 orcs were once elves which were corrupted. Corruption can be undone. It will take a long time but I feel orcs after Sauron's defeat can be fully redeemed
Personally. I think making the orcs sympathetic could be cool to portray. It would suggest that even the orcs themselves could have been drawn towards the light if not for the corruption of Sauron. It would highlight Sauron as being all the more wicked.
I don’t know about anyone else, but seeing an irredeemable person be brought back into redemption is a beautiful story. I would certainly prefer the orcs be saved. But Sauron won’t have that. And this would make it sting even more when the orcs shun the light they’ve been offered and once again become monsters.
4:22 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣i absolutely love the gimli impression here
Fantastic detail
Glad to know someone feels the same.
😂😂😂😂😂
Other then a vague resemblance to the world created by the author this show has nothing to do with Tolkien or Middle Earth. Tolkien's Galadriel, Gil-galad, Elrond, Elendil and their ilk were characters you found yourself becoming invested in. Their stories were compelling and you wanted them to prevail against darkness. I can't think of a single character in Rings of Power that elicits that response from me or actually any interest at all.
One thing I wouldn't let out of this topic, is the influence of their leader. In the show, Adar treats the orcs as living beings who deserve a place in the middle earth. That said, to me it feels quite ok for some of them not wanting to go to war, or exhibiting some measure of care about their spawn.
He is depicted as one of the earliest orcs. There might be enough elf in him just to want to be left alone like the avari or dark elves.
It’s honestly amazing how much detail rings of power has added to the LOTR. I love the show.
It makes perfect sense to me that orcs of the Second Age, long separated from the direct influence of either Morgoth or Sauron, might be at perhaps the most morally ambiguous stage of their history. Which is not to say that I think the orcs of this age, in Tolkien's version or the shows, ever had much chance of becoming morally commendable on the whole. They were doomed to play the role that they did, by powers beyond their control. But they were still sentient peoples, capable of speech and independent thought. I find it interesting how this discourse surrounding the orc family supposes categories of "is evil" and "has a family", as though these were polar and non-overlapping opposite conditions. Neither in our world nor Tolkien's have things ever been so simple. Like, there's an orc dad who is concerned about his son, sure. That doesn't mean he isn't going to raise the kid to be a cruel, elf-eating brigand. It just means he's a dad with a kid. There are such men in every nation and people. When you say "I want my country to invade this country" you are saying "I wish to kill fathers of children in this nation, and let children of those fathers starve". There is no other kind of war, nor ever will be.
Honestly I like this comment the most cause it makes a good case and state the family /= evil which is way more true than some would like
Excellent comment
Respect for this well-articulated, intelligent comment!
Well thought out and so true
"There is no question who I will be rooting for, if any of this orcs meets someone like Elrond on the battlefield".
I seriously thought he was going to say the orcs.
I don't think 'redeemable' orcs are "pointless". It merely adds to the tragedy. That Orcs (and the Easterlings and Haradrim) are trapped and threatened by Sauron as well.
While I am definitely team 'men of the west', we can still empathise how Sauron's thralls ate slaves.
There is nothing to argue against in your take. Point for point, I agree on all accounts. A total misalignment of intentions and mediums through which to fulfill those intents, the Orcs are not the peoples to use for them.
The point on the Haradrim being a good choice is absolutely correct, with how well received the Numenoreans were by the peoples of Middle-Earth and Harad originally (let's not talk about that little misunderstanding with the Dunlending ancestors, yeah?). It's unfortunate that I know full well from which socio-political perspective this scene arose from, which made Orcs their medium of choice even though it makes no canonical or literary sense to use them for it.
To be fair, I’ve kind of accepted that Rings of Power isn’t so much as following the lore, as much as it is a show that “borrows” from the lore.
So just like the movies then
It seems to me that RoP set up the orc family we see as those who are not currently under the direct control of Sauron.
It makes sense for them to be less brutal and hateful while under Adar, who we see treating them with more respect.
Excellent point.
This. The dynamic works because they are under the respectful and loving leadership of kin, their "lordfather" Adar, instating the family unit tradition he experienced first hand. Without him they will be totally lost and their nature will be exploited by Sauron and Saruman.
Exactly! People are just freaking out because they have to think about orcs as more than cannon fodder! Yes, they’re eventually going to be under Sauron, and the show is depicting that as something that is sad! This is not the end of the world!
@@_iao_ A loving and caring corrupt Elf is as antithetical to Tolkien as the doting, dutiful daddy orc.
But this video itself proved that when without unifying force of dark lord, these independent orcs are even more chaotic, uncooperative and without agenda while they are still very much naturally evil without need for influence of dark lord.
If anything, I'd expect Adar's orcs to behave more like the orcs from watchtower in LOTR where they were slaughtering each other.
Tbh, I doubt there wouldn't be an orc trying to murder Adar and take his position if they were not ruled by fear.
Jealousy and desire are strong in all orcs.
Matt from Nerd of the Rings contends that the show should focus on telling the story and not waste time on what is merely an interesting philosophical point. While he's allowed to have his priorities, I totally disagree. Christopher Tolkien detested the Peter Jackson movies, asking "where is the philosophy?" The show is absolutely right to spend all of 5 seconds in this scene to invite us to discuss Tolkien’s philosophy and themes. The scene asks us to reckon with issues such as:
- are Orcs, or anything else, absolutely and irredeemably evil? (Tolkien says no, many times)
- Should we have pity for wretched, evil creatures (Tolkien clearly says yes, cf. Gollum, and his passages on the corruption of Elves into Orcs)
- Is anything evil by birth? (Tolkien believes evil comes from a fall, and in the words of Elrond, "Nothing is evil in the beginning.")
The scene does not imply that Orcs aren't evil. But there is a vast gulf between evil, and absolute evil. The scene only points out that absolute evil does not exist for Tolkien, and asks you to wrestle with that fact, as Tolkien did. It invites us to have this conversation. However, most people, including Matt, miss that discussion because they are sidetracked by "is this a good adaptational choice?"
Great video! I think the depiction in the show is both lore accurate and much more interesting than having again the same power ranger level villains as always. You do have a great point of this not being a central theme in the Rings original material, but it's nice to see how things would actually happen in that time.
Additionally, I should point out that even the most violent peoples in human history have had loving families. Mothers care for their young, and want to see them succeed. That does not mean they won't use their kids to gain power, or train them to be aggressive, sneaky, and violent. They will be trained that power is a zero-sum game, they will backstab people outside of their family unit or older relates to gain their titles and power. Mothers will kill competitors to them and their kids without thought. However, the fact that Azog and Bolg didn't kill each other means that orcs can feel loyalty to one another. They might not be hugging each other and talking about their feelings, but it is clear father taught son what he knew and set him up to inherit his power.
Even in texas chainsaw massacre the serial killer family takes care of their own. Having family doesn't equate to beign less evil. I don't think spending 10s in orc "culture" will make that much of a difference. They can still brkng good haraddrim anyway
I'm totally NOT watching RoP S2, I just wanted to chime in on the topic that only Iluvatar has life-creating powers, which is not true, since Aule created the dwarves in secret and Yavanna created the Ents, so there was nothing really preventing Melkor from creating living beings, except Tolkien himself who put limits on what Melkor could do so that evil didn't look omnipotent. It's not necessarily a contradiction, is more like a "I don' think so" creative decision.
I don't think there's anything negative about the portrayal of a nuclear orc family. While it's probably a bit of a stretch to evoke the idea of a nuclear family, I don't think it's out of the realms of possibility for orcs to love (on some level) members of their own kind and their offspring. Adar holds affection for his "children", again, on some level.
What's important to keep in mind is this scene was only a few seconds long. It's not as though massive amounts of mileage or energy were put into this perspective scenery - it's simply a blunt, on the nose way of implicating the 'yes, orcs have babies and therefore affection' idea onto the viewer. And that's okay. To nuance this idea further and offer analysis into domestic dynamics would take more mileage and energy which, as Nerd says, isn't really worth it. Orc nuclear family is fine for some mindscape expansion, as long as you're open to getting the gist/the show itself.
I think all different ways Tolkien tried to imagine orcs shows that this question of orc nature is not easy to answer.
He's essentially struggling with the problem of evil + the question of nature vs. nurture at the same time : two of the hardest condrums humans have ever considered.
I do think it was genius of him to respond to questions as if he had observed the history of Middle Earth and was just trying, like his readers, to explain what he observed.
Thanks for bringing this up. I've seen youtubers (whose jobs are based on knowing tolkiens material) scoff at the scene and say, "that's not how orcs are made". Even though the scene with Saruman was a movie invention, a lot of people see that as the way orcs come to be. I understand people not liking the show, it does make huge lore changes. But for me, I can watch it and enjoy it in a vacuum without raging over lore changes. I'm not gonna lie, I do wish I was seeing a book-accurate version, cause it would be better that way. But I'm not about to set up my tripod and yell into a youtube video for two hours about it
Well, those guys likely don’t watch the show for entertainment, just to have an excuse to rant.
Let’s face it, there’s like three options for how orcs are made: the show version, the mud pits, or (God forbid) the “Goblin Slayer” version. And if people want that last version they are sick in the head and clearly don’t understand Tolkien.
I'd love the show to pivot into an Orc sitcom.
Daddy Orc finding it difficult holding-down a job looting and pillaging. Mammy Orc constantly redecorating the family grotto to keep-up with the Mizhnaks next door. Teen Daughter Orc staying out far too late with her friends. Young, intelligent Son Orc, innocently questioning every facet of the Orc lifestyle.
Such potential ...
You joke, but I would totally check that out.😂 Someone should make that a skit.
I don't think the Orc family has shown them as sympathetic. It explains their motivation to be free of Sauron and make their own homeland. The Orc raising a child Orc as his heir would make sense to be protective in such a brutal setting, otherwise no Orcs would survive childhood. Sauron reenslaving the Orcs under his will will happen very fast.
I think orc families make perfect sense. From what we've seen of orcs, even with a strong leader like Adar or Sauron to give them orders, they could have never worked together in organized groups without some sense of community and kinship. Besides, caring for one's mate and offspring is a trait found throughout the animal kingdom, so it wouldn't be accurate to say it humanized them.
I don't think the show portrays Orcs in a significantly positive way. Don't remember them expressing any pity or remorse or other "good" impulse. Even their distrust of Sauron is not a matter of morality or will to independence, but of which somewhat equally evil leader they will follow. They do breed but so do a lot of evil people.
In the books, it was clear that the orcs hated and feared Sauron and the Nazgul. Additionally, they did not want to be in or under their command. They also avoided man and elfs and would only confront them enmass if there was something to gain. This may be too much to detail in an 8 episode show.
Excellent video mate, I'm completely okay with the idea of Redeemable Orcs, but that feels much more like a 4th Age idea, after the destruction of the Ring where they would be free of Dark Lords
I think everyone is missing the major point about Orcs having families. It gives more weight to Adar’s storyline and makes him an anti hero character.
Yeah, even nerd of the rings seems to be totally missing the point.
My only real problem with the orc family depiction is that they were shown as Family units. I totally accept that they could establish family units, but I don’t think in their current state shown they would.
But that's your opinion based on what you believe is plausible. Most people objecting are literally saying it's impossible and Tolkien wrote explicitly that this can't happen. Which isn't the case.
@@isaacm2374 totally agree, I personally feel like it’s incredibly unlikely given the nature of Orcs at the time, but certainly not impossible given tolkiens writing
Also it was such a tiny scene that I missed it on first watch so I’m not sure why it’s getting blown out of proportion. The barrowwights are a much bigger deal IMO
I think what upsets people so much about this is that orcs are a good "irredeemable evil" creature that heroes can mow down without any moral quandries.
Some DnD players have expressed similar issues when they did the same with orcs and goblins.
I liked it. Tolkien struggled for years about the nature of orcs because he didn't believe in absolute evil.
I don't see the orc depiction in RoP problematic and I like it. I don't think there is any attempt to show them in a sympathetic light, only that they also can have agency of their own, not just being an instrument of Sauron. Nothing in the show suggests that orcs are not evil. Yes, they have families and take care of their young... but that is the natural instinct, not an act of goodness. Evil people can have families they love and take care of. Evil spiders in Tolkien's works also have offspring and provide for them. All the show showed is that orcs want to be able to raise their young, not that they want to be good.
The show shows no Orc to be repetent or redeemable. They are happy to kill men, elves and horses. Yes, they want a homeland, they want to raise their young and they want to be away from Sauron. But they will still be evil. There wouldn't be any redemption. Imagine if it all worked out as Adar wanted... Mordor without Sauron. Orcs would still be evil. They would still attack human lands of future Gondor, loot, kill and pillage.
Here’s my thought, as a WW1 vet Tolkien probably wrote about the orcs comparing them to his enemies during his time served. And I think as a write and poet that he would be able to understand the duality of, just because they are my enemies doesn’t mean that they too have love and children. That they also have lives beyond the battle field. Which military doctrine teaches the other.
This brings the following from Morgoth's Ring to mind:
"...though of necessity, being the fingers of the hand of Morgoth, they must be fought with the utmost severity, they must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty and treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost. This was the teaching of the Wise, though in the horror of the War it was not always heeded."
For sure! Just look at the veteran interview clips from Band of Brothers. If I remember correctly, one of them even went as far to say if they hadn’t been at war, the soldiers he was fighting and killing could have become his friends; laughing over stories and having a beer over talking about sports.
I don't think a single example of an orc with a better nature than most is entirely off the table. I like to think the orc in the show is an exception rather than the rule.
I think that showing an orc baby and showing Adar's efforts to create an independent orcish kingdom are very poignant when layered on top of Lord of the Rings because we will never find out whether the orcs could have climbed out of the pit Morgoth dug for them and become something more.
The fundamental misunderstanding that makes me not even bother to criticize Rings of Power's portrayal of orcs, elves and dwarves, or any other thing, is that they demystify the entire universe. Tolkien's universe is fundamentally magical. Elves and dwarves are of course magical, but also nature, geography, everything is sung into existence by the Valar. Remember, in Tolkien's universe this is not just mythology that some people believe in, but the way things actually are. And there are living beings that you can talk to who can attest to that. Gandalf the Gray died in the battle against Baolrogern, but was sent back as Gandalf the White, etc. This is not a situational drama, or a power struggle over who will inherit the farm. I used to work in the kindergarten, and once there was a boy who said "Let's play sharks", and a girl who said "I want to play house". The compromise they reached was that they played shark house. It's just like "house" except everyone has to say "blob blob" and make hand motions like they're swimming. This is just like "Rongs of Power". You take a working fantasy world, turn all the magical beings into nuclear families and run situational drama across the board. Everyone has the same conflicts, joys and dialogues, but with different makeup. It's just boring. So… do I have an opinion on “orc families”? No, I'm not interested, and I can't wait for the series to crash. The sooner I can go back to enjoying "TOLKIE'S" universe. For now it's just a source of irritation, like someone who keeps my favorite bench in the park busy even though they could be sitting anywhere, or someone who is too loud on the phone on the bus, but not so loud that I need to say something. I don't react to dark-skinned dwarves or elves, or dwarven women without beards. All this completely unproblematic. But one thing that shines through is that neither the writers nor the actors like Tolkien, and then the question becomes why. The show is obviously not aimed at Tolkien fans, or nerds in general. So who have they really thought of to look at the misery. Those who are meant to identify with the characters are not people who normally like fantasy. It doesn't make sense.
Sympathetic Orcs works in this adaptation for one simple reason: they have a loving lordly father to guide them in Adar. His death will be their doom. Without him they will have no guidance and Sauron and Saruman will step in to exploit their nature.
This exactly explains why they added that into this show… adar is a caring father who wants more for his folk but after his passing is when all hell breaks loose for orcs…
Yeah that makes sense though they are still behaving badly! But I doubt that the Orcs ever saw themselves as the "bad guys". People still do terrible, evil things while simultaneously caring about their offspring or their legacy
I can agree with this. Plus, orcs aren’t all that intelligent, so having a caring leader who still retains his intelligence as an elf (likely one who was raised in Valinor) and has the experience of war-forged Uruk would contribute to this difference.
That actually works, but it would be cooler if actually Sauron convinces orcs to kill Adar, and to come to his side.
To add to the mix - perhaps that family unit isn’t palatable for people, but (1) Tolkien purposefully didn’t want to address this subject, as let’s face it, it would result in a different view of the orcs in his first runs of his books, and (2) if there are pregnant orcs and orc babies, how does orc society stop these getting eaten before the babies are grown up?
Honestly this is the first time I am hearing about this discourse. I seen the orc's and thought oh look a baby and that's it. And I dislike the worst show of all time takes. It really is not that bad. Anyone who says that it ruins Tolkien's works are just being over dramatic. Those work's are still there and will never change. I love all the books, Peter Jackson's films and I like this. What surprises me most is people saying it's the worst thing ever but still watch it. Don't like it. Don't watch it. 😊
Honestly I love orcs, whether they're savage monsters or sympathetic brutes. Exploring different sides of orcs in different franchises is what keeps them interesting.
That said, orc families are probably the least of the show's problems.
I was thinking that they were perhaps showing that moment so that when Sauron ultimately dominates them that we'll see them start to become more blood-lust and less concerned about their own families, etc.
To criticize your statement that we never see orcs find redemption, well, this is a small window where they see an opportunity to self govern out from under the hand of Morgoth or Sauron. Don’t worry, Sauron will be back.
The orcs being shown in a sympathetic light is probably one of the best concepts the show puts forward.
A race created through torture should get some sympathy.
My biggest takeaway from what you've said is, will be. I think showing a progression to this irredeemable evil is okay. Showing a handful of them as you know family units are those who do want to just live in peace at this period in time is okay. We know where they end up.
There's a single line in the two towers when merry and pippin are given orc medicine, and tolkein says that it showed that there was an unknown culture and wisdom in orc lore.
Maybe I'm just over thinking it, but it always seemed to me that tolkein was showing that this evil race isn't all as bad as he made them out to be.
Tolkien didn't want Orcs to be monolithically evil. He wanted to add good orcs (ones free of Sauron & working against him) but he could not fit them into story.
Agreed, I think this story/show gives them a chance to explore additional aspects outside of Sauron's control, which is pretty interesting.
I remember that part in the movie. The hobbit was given a gross brown juice that must have tasted awful. But he wasn't poisoned by it.
You are missing the point completely. Culture and wisdom are not good or bad by definition. Cannibals also have culture. And obviously there is a lot of wisdom about Sauron in the orc lore. So Tolkien never tried to describe orcs as wise, good and highly cultural civilization. He just pointed orcs have own culture, different from the other races and their culture has a lot of wisdom about evil.
@@nick3175 you're arguing with shadows. Maybe stick to the red pilled content, requires you to think less there.
The way I see this going in rings of power is that right now we have some less extreme orcs that are free of a master but still mostly evil. Once Sauron takes back full control of the orcs all that free will will be wiped out. One theme that keeps on reoccurring is the power over flesh so at some point sauron is going to take full control.
Or maybe Sauron and Galadriel will fall in love and have children. As obviously according to the show orcs elect their leaders and can kill Sauron, which natural form is black comedy goo, so the showrunners derailed completely off the lore created by Tolkien. I really doubt the scriptwriters ever read anything written by Tolkien. They watched the Jackson's movies obviously, but that is all. As the entire plot is trying to create very stupid twists and to answer questions, that are already answered. We know how Sauron came to power, and he never been killed by orcs, as that is simply impossible. Gandalf never had amnesia. Orcs never been good and loving. Harfoots were smaller in stature and had a browner complexion, they were not black, multiracial, or white. The show completely missing the point elves, humans, hobbits, dwarfs, orcs and etc. are different races. That is why there are not black elves or Asian elves, because that will be like white black, or black Chinese - simply stupid. And we see in the show only orcs as different race, for some reason there are not black orcs, white orcs and Asian orcs. So they are trying to humanize orcs, but turned all other races into humans de facto, except the orcs. So obviously and proven by their own actions, the showrunners are racists. And etc. There are so many inconsistencies, specially with the timeline. The show is a bad parody of Tolkien's work, and very expensive parody.
It's very worth noting that "taking pleasure in evil deeds" is something that many humans can be accused of. It's not an inherent condemnation of an entire species.
For me, the only plausibility in the RoP depiction is in the argument that these are Orcs much closer to their original “corruption” by Morgoth. You still have Orcs that remember their past lives, and there is no singular Dark Lord imposing his will on them for generations to ingrain his worldview into them.
My issue isn't that they showed how Orcs have families/children, but they showed them in such a sympathetic light. No orc gives a hoot about their women or kids.
Well Azog seems like he care so much about his son Bolg. So male Orc did care about his family.
That logically makes no sense whatsoever. If ‘no orc gives a hoot about their women or kids’ then those kids wouldn’t grow up to be men and their race would cease to exist
@@HandriKusnadi key word, male. We are talking about very primitive beings here
Finally, a levelheaded comment.... I don't really like the show (the music is nice), but knee jerk "I hate it" reactions aren't helping.
How do you know that?
After the first season I said to my wife:
“ we not gonna no further till we’ve had a BREATHER!”
I think it worked for the specific orc they showed. He was clearly closer to Adar than the others and he might have internalized some of his teachings that go beyond pure violence and hatred. That being said they showed nothing that suggested Orcs have learned to hate the other races any less or that their willingness to commit cruelty to those has diminished.
Absolute codswallop 😂
This!
"the orcs will in the end be brought to serve Sauron" yeah, that's what a tragedy is. I'm glad ROP is exploring this concept. It shows how evil/harmdoing comes about in ourselves, often a result of domination, lack of alternatives, then force of habit.
I think it was a good way to show that the orcs are fighting for something, not just warring for the sake of it. I really didn't mind that scene at all as it didn't make me sympathetic toward the orcs. All it really did for me was give a Lil incite into Addar and his tactics. He might not have the mind-bending powers of a dark lord, but experience and knowledge are the ways he gains a following.
All I was thinking was that quote you made from Tolkien about them not being irredeemable. He couldn't justify an entire race being evil, because in the end, it goes against the Christian morals he had woven into the world.
In the Hobbit, Gollum talks about eating little goblins when he gets desperate for something to eat, but he doesn’t like the taste.
I think people ignore the obvious, these orcs are not yet controlled by Sauron, they are with Adar someone who is much more sympathetic to them and treats them like his children. We can see this in the first season, so it makes sense that it allows them to have normal families. when Suaron takes control he will take that away from them since for him they are simply cannon fodder the scene is perfectly justified in the context of the series you have to be stupid not to understand that
This would make more sense if Morgoth didn't exist and the orcs were presented as a race with cultures not much different from other races, but who are enslaved and corrupted by Sauron. But they've been serving Morgoth forever already - since their creation - even in RoP's own telling.
And it's not like Adar had them civilised and living in cities, doing honest jobs for a wage and going to school, having hobbies- they're still a horde, slaughtering and being slaughtered...
ah yes no sauron bo problem. well be seeing orc on elf or troll on human porn now
@@trevorbyrne4668 The orcs feared Morgoth and Sauron, they are also not afraid of Adar and he treats them as equals, which is why they must have different behaviors, plus Morgoth's reign ended in the first age, so who knows how long these orcs have been with Adar.
@@giancarlo5945 They're still a horde of scruffy, warlike, sadistic freaks though, even under Adar. Look at how they've been characterised in every scene except that goofy one with the loving orc family. They're brutal slavers, torturers and murderers; they're out randomly shooting horses in one scene.
As many others have pointe out, the issue isn't how orcs procreate. It's the typically goofy, inconsistent way the RoP writers deal with their ideas. Suddenly they want to portray orcs as complex, sympathetic beings, so they throw in a scene demonstrating this in the most silly, on the nose way...
@@trevorbyrne4668 Yes, as if lore from the original Tolkien Canon wasn't confusing enough!
In my opinion the main problem is the way they were depicted in the rings of power. I imagine their behaviour more like an animal like urge to breed and using (forcing) their women mainly for that purpose. That would fit their behaviour depoictet by Tolkien. I can't imagine them as a loving family with a male orc that does't want to kill and plunder in a war. 🤨
I quite like this depiction of orcs. In the narrative, recognizing that her enemies are also sentient beings with names and souls rather than cannon fodder is a step on Galadriel’s moral journey, and what I assume will be Sauron’s subjugation of the orcs will emphasize his cruelty. For worldbuilding, I appreciate any effort to show that all the various peoples have some form of functional culture and society, which actually makes them more of a threat than roaming packs of animals. I don’t think the depiction of the family went overboard in showing excessive care or affection.
the origin of the orcs was something that Tolkien could just never reconcile.
What's jarring to me is the depiction of a loving family unit. I would think that orc women would have the worse lives imaginable. Basically breeding slaves to create armies. Biologically it would make sense for gestation to be very short, and for orc young to mature quickly during their very harsh childhoods (if you could call it that.)
“Orcs don’t have families, they have broods”
If Orcs have families, they aren’t going to be a happy, loving affairs. It’ll be as brutal as every other part of their life.
Really like that they are giving orcs dimensions. Can criticize many things about the series, but here I think they do a great job.
i think the problem is that they showed it like orcs could have fairly normal family dynamics considering their nature, if they had shown a 'breeding-pit' full of both pregnant female orcs and possibly even females from other races(the real reason i think Tolkien said he didn't want to give to too much thought to the subject considering the different varieties of goblin/orc that all seem to have non-corrupted sentient counterpart that live in similar environments/locations to and are of similar size to those counterparts), then people would have not seen it as athima to WHAT the orcs are. that said it would be distasteful to show such a thing when anyone with half a brain and the desire to can figure out where orcs come from based on context clues.....
The "loving family" aspect is definitely a stretch and one I'm not in love with, but I think making the orcs more complex than simply evil killing machines makes the story that much more interesting, at least to me.
I liked the family unit thing. This is to Obviously put Adar in a position of a savior for them. Sauron knows he cant undermine Adar right now, so once Sauron kills Adar he will promise to “take care” of their orc families in exchange for an army of them, continuing his manipulation of ALL societies in middle earth.
Adar is a made up character, shouldnt even exist, so yeah, the whole show isn't lore and doesn't belong in the Tolkien world, glad you like it though, you do you.
It is frustrating to see people rightly criticize the show, but then show their ignorance and claim to know Tolkien’s canon but miss the mark entirely such as this “Orc women didn’t exist” debacle.
I'm honestly not sure what the big deal is. I still don't see the orcs as sympathetic villains -- but I see them holding on to vestiges of "humanity" (read: desire for home, right to exist) that their elf ancestors surely had long ago. By the time LOTR rolls around that would have been long gone
That being said the way the orc family is portrayed in the show felt a bit goofy. So idk
I have no problem with brief portrayals of orc families… I don’t understand why it’s such a big deal, unless you have a headcanon against it. I also think it would be a mistake to give it further focus. I really think it is shown to generate sympathy for Adar and really isn’t about orcs. The show runners are very invested in trying to make fans root for Adar or at least want him around, since he is their creation.
One of the general problems is that many fans have an incomplete picture of the lore and react strongly to things they don’t like regardless of whether it is in keeping with the lore. This is why you see many viewers ignore some of the worst lore violations while getting all hot over stuff they just don’t like.
100% disagree on it missing the mark @NerdoftheRings. You went to great lengths explaining the gray area in Tolkien's own internal debate about the orcs, and it is 100% what the adaptation is exploring. It emboldens the character of Adar and explores these heavy concepts in Tolkien's works about redeemability and virtue. Putting it off onto men (Haradrim/Easterlings/Variags/Numenoreans) would not have been as interesting or philosophically gripping since that is repeatedly explored elsewhere.
As with many of the shows failures, I don't think it's necessarily the idea that's bad but how it's depicted. I find it highly unlikely that Tolkien envisioned the orcs as having children and partners who they care for and even love! I expect he imagined it as at best being animalistic and purely focused on procreation or at worst, exploited and industrialised by Sauron similar to how we do with livestock.
I just don't think that love is something he believed they were capable of. And honestly that's how I prefer it. We have plenty of stories where the villains are morally grey or bad only due to a matter of perspective, but I like that in Middle-earth the armies of evil are largely just that - evil. And as you say, the Haradhrim and Easterlings would have been far better alternatives to exploring villains who have been manipulated, coerced, or corrupted by Sauron in a way that would also demonstrate the fall of Numenor. I remember being so excited when Lenny Henry was cast and I assumed we would be exploring those cultures more, perhaps even with him as a blue wizard. I think that's why I find RoP so disappointing - it wastes so many opportunities.
(A very small side-point but papa-orc here really makes me appreciate the physical acting in LotR which extended even to the way the orcs moved).
Orcs definitely have members of their race they care more for than others, orcs have relationships - that's clearly in the books
"expected them on being animalistic". you know who is an animal? Humans. Humans are animals, humans are capable of loving their children to outright killing them. I think the whole problem with all this is the inability of the majority of the fan base not seeing who was the author and how he saw the world, it does seep into the books a lot. Arda is the fantasy land of a man who saw the world divided between races, man who saw humans as more than just another animal. it's not surprising that in today's world we see these things being changed on newer adaptations. good example is to se how D&D depiction of orcs and goblins has changed from beings of pure evil (pulled from Tolkien's work) to beings like any human, elf, drawf or halfling.
@@pablopandolfo8446 It's perhaps not surprising but that doesn't mean it's desirable. So many of the show's problems derive from the writers attempts to change what Tolkien wrote because they think their version is better. Maybe the guy who created the most influential and detailed fantasy world to date had some idea what he was doing? Maybe there's nothing wrong with the baddies just being bad?
@@emkalina Relationships based on love though? Familial relations do not necessarily imply love, just as allegiances don't require friendship.
@@EstyVids Except mythology, royal genealogy and some laguage fun facts, there is nothing detailed about Tolkien's world. We know of shire and meet a bunch of aristocrats, that's it. We know pretty much nothing about the life of regular people except hobbits and one family in Minas Tirith. Everyday life, economics, logistics? Tolkien didn't care about that at all.
The other thing is that they do not change the lore that much. It's just the show is bad. The movies changed some stuff as well but no cares because they were written better despite the fact for example Arwen was totally busted or Aragorn's character was heavily rewritten.
Honestly, I hate how in the last 10 years there isn't a single villain in mainstream media that's simply evil. Part of Middle Earth's charm is this clear distinction between good and evil, and I hate they're trying to blur the lines like that.
All in all, you have confirmed that orc women and orc babies exist, but this still doesn't justify depicting them as "caring and loving parents". Kinda contradicts their whole concept of being evil to their core despite their good beginnings as a race.
How long would a orc live naturally? If they didn’t fight all the time.
In my own headcannon I like to think they're effectively immortal, as elves are, since one of their potential backstories is being created from tortured elves.