The en bloc clip really was the only loading system that ever seriously measured up to the stripper clip. Including what you mentioned, they are also great for logistical purposes, being as all of the soldier's ammo is conveniently pre-packaged and ready for immediate use. The M1 Garand represents the absolute peak of this system. You just grab a clip, stuff the whole thing in the rifle, shoot, and it's deposited upon emptying and the rifle is ready for another. Easy to make, easy to design a rifle around, cheap, and easy to train soldiers on. The stripper clip eventually prevails on account of still being relatively cheap and quick, but also by allowing a partially empty rifle to be more easily topped up.
I love the M1 en blocs. Very well designed. I have found some similar issues that they were having with a couple of the M1s I was using, though. It could be an issue with the powder loads but, I've still found the M1 to be a little finicky when trying to load an en bloc into the rifle. It was usually because I loaded the enbloc improperly but, not always. I also had a failure to eject just like Ian had. It's funny how the same issues pop up for similar firearm types even when the designs are decades apart.
@Karol Wilk Like he said in the disassembly video its a mix of old overused clips and worn out springs that are causing the feed issues. If I was a French soldier in WW1 I would have loved one of these rifles compared to a tube-fed bolt action.
I think it's quite remarkable how reliable they were able to get that rifle to be, considering how ill-suited the 8mm Lebel is for both box magazines and autoloaders.
@@Danny-Patts Yeah, they never chambered them for anything else and nothing else would fit those clips, so they also haven't been re-chambered for something else.
@BigWheel. He literally said in the video the problem is the 100 years old clip, like how many fucking times will I have to repeat this watch the fucking video holy shit
To clarify: Ian has been able to add a full auto Chauchat in 8mm, full auto Chauchat in .30-06, and a MAS 38 in 7.65 Longue. Yet he has not been able to get his hands on an RSC 1918 to add to his collection. The RSC 1918 must be extremely rare.
My Carcano doesn't like to feed the last round. Totally different gun, I know, but maybe it has something to do with en bloc clips. Yep, that's exactly my problem. The last round goes nose up and the bolt pushes directly on the side of the casing and creates a nice little jam.
Yeah I figured that. I try to reshape it after usage. Also it's a repro clip and I don't think it fits in the mag as well as it should. Oh well. I'm just happy to be able to shoot the thing.
I've always found self loading rifles from World War I very interesting, especially the RSC-1917 and 1918. I happen to own a RSC-1917 that I got from my grandfather's collection but it needs repairs as the gun hasn't worked in a long time.
TheGoldenCaulk Thanks man! My grandfather loved it and I hope to have it working again once I have the time! It's also a big shame sense it's my favorite rifle when it comes to looks!
R&N RailProductions Hopefully you get that rifle working again, they are a beautiful piece of history. If you ever do, post a video of it, there aren't many videos of working RSCs.
Well. This is in a time where design teams are still putting magazine cutoff's in rifles because soldiers wouldn't know what to do with more than one round at a time.
Even though my RSC has the earlier manually operated bolt hold open, I still get a jam when trying to feed the last round, it's basically identical to the one you get in this video. Hopefully one of these days somebody makes good repros of these clips.
As the 5 round clip is held in place by the pressed metal cover as Ian clearly shows, I would have thought a 3 round one would just fall down into the cover and the top cartridge would be well below the bolt.
so, its now 5 years since I stumbled on your video about the EM-2 and thought "No way I will ever see anyone dissasemble let alone shoot one of thoose". Time and time again I have had that same thought until it with great disbelife has changed into "He is dissasembling THAT! I'll bet he'll be shooting it also" Thanks a million Ian!
I find it very interesting how good these things are, and how quirky so many prototype semi auto rifles in the 20s and 30s were. The french could have had a rifle that worked at least as well as an M1 Garand, an SVT or a G-43 if they would have fitted the RSC-1918 with a 10 round mag, adopted it to 7.5x54mm and maybe gave it the sights of the MAS-36.
Ahmid'ou Miahn Banzillah Dogh'o Issou Chanclasos not only that he was willing to drive 5 hours both way to shoot said gun. Best view of Toronto is in your rear view mirror.... :)
On the 1917, it's not bad at all. The rifle is quite heavy (almost 12 pounds dry, about 5.3 kg) and balanced towards the muzzle. The weight comes from the complex gas system, long barrel and subsequently long forend, and the gas system also absorbs some of the recoil during operation. I would describe it as gentle yet firm. It is still firing a *big* round after all, but it won't bruise a shoulder.
@@thegoldencaulk2742 It looked like it was playing his shoulder out of the socket lmao. I'm exaggerating but from the video it looks like it kicks almost as much as a shotgun.. Who knows, maybe he just wasn't good at firing this particular rifle because he's normally a decent shooter, and it looked like he was struggling with the recoil in most of the vid
@@Snubrevolver Shit, that's a really nice observation. I think you might be right there. He's wearing sunglasses, so you'd think it wouldn't affect him, but I can still imagine myself firing that weapon and not wanting to get hit in the eyeball by the charging handle lol. Either way, this rifle is fucking beautiful; idk if there's a more aesthetically pleasing weapon than this from WW1 other than the Chauchat and the M1911. The French and The Americans sure know how to make simultaneously beautiful and effective firearms.
Years ago, an acquaintance of mine shot his 1917 at our range on more than one occasion. I was always interested in it. It's one of the reasons I picked up a Lebel. His 1917 had the gas system sealed off. He only had one clip and he never used it. In effect, it was a single shot rifle. At the time I had no idea how rare it was to see one fired.
Even if the unreliability in feeding is inherent to the design rather than just a result of the clips - there doesn't appear to have been any hard-to-clear malfunctions. The firepower advantage relative to a bolt action rifle is clear.
Been waiting for this video for a long time you are the only person on TH-cam to my knowledge to have a video firing one of these thanks awesome video got to keep saving and get one of these
Seems like these guns need one of the following. 1) Higher powered ammo (to make the bolt stay back long enough for the last round to load. 2) Heavier bolt (to the same effect (giving it more inertia)) 3) lighter spring 4) different mag design. / stronger spring in the mag to push that bullet up fast enough. I am not a gunsmith, but i think that some of these could solve the pretty consistent loading problem on the last round. If anyone has more insight on the topic, i would be happy to hear it.
I am a Gunsmith, bumping chamber pressure to make extraction and cycling more realible is always the last option, if it's not working right, putting more umph into it is not a good idea. This is more so a Manlicher clip problem, as mentioned, it forces the round though the front of the clip, thus widening it temporarily to the size of the rim, this means that the rounds are not lined up straight during feeding all the time, it's an inherient fault with the design, it's made less apparent in bolt action rifles due to not feeding as fast. Garand got around this problem by making his clips double stack, that means the clip is always wider then the rim of the case, so it won't expand and always will feed properly. I attribute the issues these two guns haveing old clips, they are much tighter when they are brand new and as stated, they are made to be disposable, not reloaded some 100 years later.
TheEchoholic Your first two solutions would have opposite effects, no? One would increase bolt travel speed, the other decrease, if I'm understanding the physics right (entirely possible I'm not).
TheEchoholic I'd say a clip cover mod would make fixing the feed failure be simpler. You could have a spot welded tension bar or soft spring that pushes up applying light pressure to the bottom of the rounds in the mag to lift the powder end of the cartridge.
I think you should also show the slow motions videos of the shots that failed. I don't think I've ever seen such a thing on this channel and I think it would interesting to see in detail what happened in those cases
I mean, it seems like an overall decent rifle, especially for something in WW1. But with all these feeding failures you're having, even in a recreational scenario, i can't imagine a war-time scenario in the trenches would be good at all. But looking at it, low-recoil, easy to shoot, as said by Ian himself. I can see it as a good sporting rifle for more traditional use.
as he said the clips are trashed after one use so thats where most of the problems are coming from kinda like the original US GI mags use once then throw away
Definitely but keep in mind these guns are 100 years old. It's entirely possible they need a bit more spring pressure from the follower (or something similar) and had that when the springs were new. 100 years later, they've gone weaker.
Oh, no, i understand that was what was causing most of the feed failures. But if those clips are all that you have available, that doesn't really change my original post. Heck, even if you got brand new clips, if you use these rifles in a wartime scenario, i'm sure they'll fail just as bad, or even worse. All that dirt, and muck getting into the rifle, along with you wearing down the clip shooting at the enemy, wouldn't be good. So, as i said, i can't see it being very good in the trenches of WW1 (If it can't even fire well enough in a controlled environment such as this one). But if someone wanted to go out to the range, or even go hunting with it, it could be perfect viable.
I know what disposable means. But, looking back at the video again, i guess you're right about mud and dirt not getting into the rifle so easily. Maybe if you use the clips as intended, i guess it would be a lot better than i think.
i think the last round malf is caused by not having enough pressure in the clip holder but its obvious that the springs in a 100 year old gun have deteriorated over time
Well there's your problem. These failures to feed could be caused by a follower spring which has lost oomph and has a really short amount of time to lift a round (the bolt is only just stopping and coming back, not much over-travel). I think the hold-open may be designed in that odd way to force troops to pull and release the bolt rather than trying to disengage the hold-open directly. This would reduce wear on tge component.
i always thought about making a company to remake these obscure WWI/WWII semi auto rifles to give the public another opportunity to appreciate the workmanship and history of these firearms for their time. hopefully make them in a more common cartridge if possible without ruining the design. yet i have no gun smithing or manufacturing experience. or money
The feed lips probably are not tempered or hardened at all. Doing so would likely remedy the problem of deformation (possibly spring tempered) or at least prolong the life of the lips. A fair bit of time and some thin spring steel, one could produce functional clips, and temper them to resist deformation better.
absolutely HUGE fan you probably don't care if you do that's cool but seriously man , self tought myself (somewhat) older guns 1950's then actually studdied and continue to do so and under till Mid 1800's(learned through your videos and knowledge of elders). amazing job you have LITERALLY my dream job. playing with firearms all day. YES PLAYING lol when you find a passion all work becomes play. cud all work and no play makes Johnnie a dull boy lol
I wonder if they worked better if the feed lips were a lot shorter, like they are today on a modern clip. They probably just need a cutout on the rear to allow the rim to glide on them and travel upwards when the bolt picks the cartridge up to loads it into the chamber.
And now the quest starts: Figuring out why the last round stops, and how it can be fixed without ruining the gun. Well that and getting a metalshop to reproduce slightly more resilient clips :P
It is due to the feed lips not holding the last round correctly. When fully loaded the other rounds are supporting round going into the chamber, when you get to the last round the clip alone is holding the round. The malformed feed lips don't hold it correctly so the round is not in the correct location for loading. I have had the same thing happen on my #4 Lee Enfield. Jams on the last round.
Since it was happening with both rifles, and new clips don't exist outside that metalshop, I'd say it's a function of the clips. They were disposable in military service for a reason. Not expecting your troops to collect them after a battle was part of the reason. If doctrine is not to reuse the clips, don't make them well enough to withstand reuse...
Whe see here that the 8mm Lebel ammo , specific designed for the Lebel rifle tube magazine, is very difficult to adapt for automatic feeding , and the only automatic weapons who realy perfect work with this ammo was the Hotchkiss machine guns with steel feed trips...Only the development from the 7.5 x 54 1929C ammo does realy solve the ammo problem for the french weapons automatic feeding: this ammo was first use on the excellent MAC 24/29 automatic rifle (successor from the Chauchat...), the Reibel MAC 31/34 machine gun, the MAS 36 bolt rifle, the MAS40 prototypes, the MAS 44 and later MAS 49/56 semi auto rifle , the AA52 light machine gun, and the FRF1 sniper rifle (who is based on the MAS36)...7.5 x 54 1929C was use up to 1989, finaly replaced from the 7.62 Nato ...
Initially, I suspected worn springs in the failure to feed the last round. I don't know enough to say whether it's the main spring or the follower, though. That said, looking deeper I believe it could also be the design of the follower... It's also possible that it's a failure caused by reused clips. There may not be enough tension on the sides of the clip to hold the round in the proper position to place it correctly to be fed. I find it interesting comparing the mechanics of the RSC design and the M1 Garand. You note that the gas systems are very similar, but Garand also borrowed the same clip design as well. It's certainly changed in the M1, but it also uses a 'disposable' clip with a built-in follower. In fact, if you compare the RSC and M1 Garand feed systems, the main difference is that the RSC is fed through an arc where the M1 is fed vertically. The M1 design may have used that design specifically to prevent the failure to feed on the last round. The fact that the M1 ejects the clip out the top is, in my view, a side-effect of requiring a vertical follower system.
You guys must have read my mind, I was looking for a video of someone shooting one of these beauties just a few days ago, and the closest I found was your video on shooting the WW1 US load out while in US gear. Awesome video!
The French RSC 17 was tricky too operate. But with proper training that could be fixed. The French soldiers with RSC 17 often lacked that training and careful maintenance. The German secret agent Albert Bartels who operated a guerillia gang from Spanish Morocco between 1916-to 1918 against the French in French Morocco, recorded, that frequentlich the French colonial troups got jammed auto loaders. Yet the volume of fire in a properly maintained RSC 17 was impressive. He picket up many "jammed" RSC 17 from killed white colonial soldiers in French Morocco. Bartels recruited then Ex Frenchlegionaries . Bartels picked several ex- Foreign legionaries and gave them a special course of instruction. The former „EX“ were Germans who wanted to help the German cause in Morocco. Bartels trained these picked specialists carefully until they could operate the RSC 17. This gave the Germans an advantage in Morocco where the usual goumier had only single shot Gras rifles. The German squads with RSC 17 could easily roll up French colonial troups with single shot black powder weapons.
The follower spring is probably worn out or degraded after all those years. Otherwise, the feed system is pretty neat, safe to use, no danger of a Garand thumb here. They could have tried to incorporate a Mannlicher-style bottom ejection system for the empty clip, making the rifle a little faster to reload and alert the shooter when he has only one round left.
I thought of a modern version of this RSC system, where stripper clips could be used (since the bottom of the gun opens to load the clip, so it's possible to mount a fixed feed lip on the upper part of the receiver which would limit and hold the clip) and then it would be possible to fit the rounds together with the clip (as if it were an en bloc) and to facilitate reloading, as well as simplify the design, I was inspired by the SKS internal magazine (because due to the simple construction of the internal magazine with just a warped spring, it would be much less complex than the RSC's lever feeding system, in addition to the fact that I would put a bar on top of the magazine cover that would retain the spring, so that it would always keep it somewhat tensioned, even without any rounds, so that when pressing a button that hold the magazine cover, it would be opened and the spring would thrust the feeding system and thus it would not be necessary to manually open the magazine cover and due to gravity the clip would fall) for the design of this supposed feeding system. The advantage I see in this system is that because it uses stripper clips it would be something very economical and simple to produce, but the disadvantages would be that it would only be possible to have a single stack magazine and also that in comparasion to magazines, the rounds would be much more exposed to the environment and could mess the rounds and jam the weapon (although the clips would most likely be carried in a place that would protect then from the environment). I see that this system would only be practical on bolt-action rifles that use full-powered rifle cartridges, as their magazine capacity is typically more limited.
Awesome !! =) Will you also mention the upgrades that were made to it during the war (shorten length, 10/15 round detachable magazines, night sights...) ?
gomatus1998c9 Actually it's really loud, so loud that a normal microphone would just record it as a very muffled noise, and without any video editing, would sound awful through speakers.
@ian So as you guys say and I also noticed it that you guys are getting the last round stop or you know not fully going into the barrel to be ready to be fired and if I remember correctly on Battlefield one when you got down to the last round and your clip There would be a jam. In other words there would be a feet malfunction on the last round to go from the clip to the gone also I understand why the con Hass
Can you just take a file and grind the hold open catch off? (I wouldn't do it on that antique rifle, but in the trenches, it might be preferable to having to fool with the jam. You can live without bolt hold open)
I know the French expected soldiers to carry their rifles without a round chambered because the rifles had no safety so maybe that had something to do with the position of the bolt when the bolt catch holds it open. Also, I can really see the similarities between these rifles and the M1 Garand. I've also thought the Garand had a similar profile to the Kar98az, but that's neither here nor there.
About those last round malfs: Could it be that the ammo you’re using is just a little bit different from what the service cartridge was in WW1? A small difference could make the last round go screwy
The gun it self doesn't look too bad, actualy. That FTF issue has to be about something with catridge or clip/magazine. It even holds bolt open on last shot, very nice feature for WWI gun.
The disconnector is pushing the trigger forward to allow hammer to go all the way down. Does the tigger hits shooters finger with any significant vigor?
Looks like the follower spring needs to be a tiny bit stronger or something, the last round is always hanging a bit lower than the first 4 and never feeding at the right angle
You know, with a little more development i think the French could have still made use of this. First thing on the list to go is that damn cartridge though. The reloading method too.
That looks like a surprisingly ergonomic and quick way to load a gun especially for something from 1918
I'd say your average stripper clips are pretty convenient.
I feel like the fact that it fails so often now is simply because of it's age, and possibly the quality of those En Bloc clips.
The en bloc clip really was the only loading system that ever seriously measured up to the stripper clip. Including what you mentioned, they are also great for logistical purposes, being as all of the soldier's ammo is conveniently pre-packaged and ready for immediate use. The M1 Garand represents the absolute peak of this system. You just grab a clip, stuff the whole thing in the rifle, shoot, and it's deposited upon emptying and the rifle is ready for another. Easy to make, easy to design a rifle around, cheap, and easy to train soldiers on.
The stripper clip eventually prevails on account of still being relatively cheap and quick, but also by allowing a partially empty rifle to be more easily topped up.
TotalBiscuit, The Cynical Brit how are you man?
I love the M1 en blocs. Very well designed. I have found some similar issues that they were having with a couple of the M1s I was using, though. It could be an issue with the powder loads but, I've still found the M1 to be a little finicky when trying to load an en bloc into the rifle. It was usually because I loaded the enbloc improperly but, not always. I also had a failure to eject just like Ian had. It's funny how the same issues pop up for similar firearm types even when the designs are decades apart.
"Is Ian really gonna touch that hot brass?"
*Ian touches the hot brass*
He takes on the sins of gun owners everywhere.
Song in Silence well i mean he is gun jesus and was sent down to us to forgive and take away the sins of every gunowner.
ed mo heretic HERETIC BURN HIM. MAY ALL GUNS YOU FIND BE MOSINS
he touched the hot brass for our sins
Since I became a welder I do it all the time. My hands are basically fireproof now.
-> tells us how rare and fragile the loading clips are, proceeds to throw them on the ground after firing
what a flex
Doesn’t matter how fragile they are and how rough he treats them they are meant to be disposable and not used again
@@bigdbandit64 so the same though process of the m1 garand clips
@@bigdbandit64 well yeah, originally they were, but today the clips are very rare, and(I assume) nobody makes them anymore.
I just realized the RSC in BF1 has the proper reload Ian was describing, gun held horizontally followed by a proper reload
He helped with that game.
Not bad for a 100 year old rifle.
@Karol Wilk wrong
@Karol Wilk Like he said in the disassembly video its a mix of old overused clips and worn out springs that are causing the feed issues. If I was a French soldier in WW1 I would have loved one of these rifles compared to a tube-fed bolt action.
@Karol Wilk Back then, it's what they had. There was no such thing as semi autos until the RSC and others came around. Look it up!
Not bad for being French
@@GalacticSpartan wrong, it was the first semi auto rifle to be adopted by the military. The first semi auto rifle was the Remington Model 8 in 1906.
I think it's quite remarkable how reliable they were able to get that rifle to be, considering how ill-suited the 8mm Lebel is for both box magazines and autoloaders.
true, the only automatic gun who work perfect with Lebel cartiges was the Hotchkiss machine guns feed with rigid strips...
@@Danny-Patts Yeah, they never chambered them for anything else and nothing else would fit those clips, so they also haven't been re-chambered for something else.
Really a rimless cartridge and a stiffer en bloc would fix this thing.
@BigWheel. He literally said in the video the problem is the 100 years old clip, like how many fucking times will I have to repeat this watch the fucking video holy shit
@@me67galaxylife maybe the spring in the mag too i mean it's a hundert years old
For some reason, rifles with this circular shape receiver look extra sexy
What ever floats your boat, I guess.
Ayuka Boldyrev whatever boats your float
Sten Gun vibes
@@DissedRedEngie It's sexy because it's french lol!!
Stanley Jedrzejczyk no, the whole receiver is circular as well. You can see it quite clearly.
Slow-motion in the rain is pure art.
I've seen things you Boche wouldn't believe.....
To clarify: Ian has been able to add a full auto Chauchat in 8mm, full auto Chauchat in .30-06, and a MAS 38 in 7.65 Longue. Yet he has not been able to get his hands on an RSC 1918 to add to his collection. The RSC 1918 must be extremely rare.
There were only 4000 of the 1918 pattern made. IIRC they made some 85,000 of the 1917 pattern...
@@andersjjensen they only made between 1 and 2 thousand Mas 38s
@financialprofessionals Not true; the Germans produced them for themselves and then the French continued production after the war
My Carcano doesn't like to feed the last round. Totally different gun, I know, but maybe it has something to do with en bloc clips.
Yep, that's exactly my problem. The last round goes nose up and the bolt pushes directly on the side of the casing and creates a nice little jam.
Yeah I figured that. I try to reshape it after usage. Also it's a repro clip and I don't think it fits in the mag as well as it should. Oh well. I'm just happy to be able to shoot the thing.
Daniel Butka: Yep, that's it exactly. Just out of curiosity, if your clip is a repro where did you get it?
My Enfield does this so it's probably more feed lips.
I've always found self loading rifles from World War I very interesting, especially the RSC-1917 and 1918. I happen to own a RSC-1917 that I got from my grandfather's collection but it needs repairs as the gun hasn't worked in a long time.
I hope you get it working again! They really are amazing rifles.
TheGoldenCaulk Thanks man! My grandfather loved it and I hope to have it working again once I have the time! It's also a big shame sense it's my favorite rifle when it comes to looks!
R&N RailProductions Hopefully you get that rifle working again, they are a beautiful piece of history. If you ever do, post a video of it, there aren't many videos of working RSCs.
It almost seems like that issue with the last round is actually a feature of the rifle, telling you "last shot".
No.
ＯＫ
Actually, a good feature in the context of 1917/1918
Well. This is in a time where design teams are still putting magazine cutoff's in rifles because soldiers wouldn't know what to do with more than one round at a time.
@@peanutbutter5402 Didn't some rifles at the time actually have a "bell" mechanism ring out on the last round left in the mag?
Even though my RSC has the earlier manually operated bolt hold open, I still get a jam when trying to feed the last round, it's basically identical to the one you get in this video.
Hopefully one of these days somebody makes good repros of these clips.
TheGoldenCaulk hopefully one of these days BF1 makes it a 1 shot kill
Team 10 wrong channel kid.
Team 10 play hardcore
I think Avballistics in Australia has been trying to make some for a few years now.
One of those things if I ever won some stupidly large lottery is to go and start a business just making old out of production magazines and clips.
I think the 8mm Lebel was really the biggest pain to work with, especially when it comes to non-tubular magazines and feeding.
Shout out to Paul, for making this possible and allowing Ian to have a field day with these classic autoloaders
I love early 1900 prototype guns. They're like steam punk fantasy come to life.
Except these weren't prototypes. They were mass produced, and were one of France's standard issue arms of WW1.
Thats kinda like saying "wow, those ww2 guns really look like blasters from star wars"
It's not a prototype
where do you think steam punks took place?
I wonder.... would a 3-round Berthier clip work in the 1918?
Good question - I didn't think about that...
Try it and lemme know what happens
yes
the reason I think that is the 5 round clip was intended to be interchangeble with the 3 round clip so most likely the 3 round clip would fit
As the 5 round clip is held in place by the pressed metal cover as Ian clearly shows, I would have thought a 3 round one would just fall down into the cover and the top cartridge would be well below the bolt.
Dont slap the magazine housing. A firm push is enough. You are pushing the last round out of true, hence the jam! Nice video, amazing weapon for WW1.
and yea, gun jebus hath a disciple, and that disciple was named paul, and paul he did wearest thy holy shirt of orange.
so, its now 5 years since I stumbled on your video about the EM-2 and thought "No way I will ever see anyone dissasemble let alone shoot one of thoose". Time and time again I have had that same thought until it with great disbelife has changed into "He is dissasembling THAT! I'll bet he'll be shooting it also" Thanks a million Ian!
You can see the hammer striking and being pushed back through the charging handle slot in the slow-mo, and it's beautiful
I find it very interesting how good these things are, and how quirky so many prototype semi auto rifles in the 20s and 30s were. The french could have had a rifle that worked at least as well as an M1 Garand, an SVT or a G-43 if they would have fitted the RSC-1918 with a 10 round mag, adopted it to 7.5x54mm and maybe gave it the sights of the MAS-36.
3:40
"Hold the bolt release down"
**lets clip out**
"That works too"
Was looking for a video like this yesterday but to no avail, this made my day!
I think this guy love French weapons
Ahmid'ou Miahn Banzillah Dogh'o Issou Chanclasos not only that he was willing to drive 5 hours both way to shoot said gun. Best view of Toronto is in your rear view mirror.... :)
Domt know why there not very nice the mas is the only one that looks nice
thank you captain obvious
I love how you can see the hammer in the slowmo
That's basically the 1918 ribeyrolles gun in semi auto and a different cartridge
According to DICE, this was the most common rifle of World War 1.
According to dice the hellriegel was the most commen weapon.
According to dice the guns are unique. They just want more weapons because its a fucking game.
@@emieleke9703 fax
@@emieleke9703 I'm not complaining I'm just saying...
@@Hubert_Cumberdale_ Well I'm just saying: "I like to touch rusty spoons." Good to see you Bert, been a long time XD
Keep up the awesome videos Ian!!
hows the recoil, it looks mean
On the 1917, it's not bad at all. The rifle is quite heavy (almost 12 pounds dry, about 5.3 kg) and balanced towards the muzzle. The weight comes from the complex gas system, long barrel and subsequently long forend, and the gas system also absorbs some of the recoil during operation.
I would describe it as gentle yet firm. It is still firing a *big* round after all, but it won't bruise a shoulder.
only 5kg? i thought it was like 6kg atleast
@@thegoldencaulk2742 It looked like it was playing his shoulder out of the socket lmao. I'm exaggerating but from the video it looks like it kicks almost as much as a shotgun.. Who knows, maybe he just wasn't good at firing this particular rifle because he's normally a decent shooter, and it looked like he was struggling with the recoil in most of the vid
@@MrCholoPants3415 It looked like the charging handle moves pretty far back. It's possible he was reacting to it reciprocating so close to his face.
@@Snubrevolver Shit, that's a really nice observation. I think you might be right there. He's wearing sunglasses, so you'd think it wouldn't affect him, but I can still imagine myself firing that weapon and not wanting to get hit in the eyeball by the charging handle lol. Either way, this rifle is fucking beautiful; idk if there's a more aesthetically pleasing weapon than this from WW1 other than the Chauchat and the M1911. The French and The Americans sure know how to make simultaneously beautiful and effective firearms.
The rain falling on the rifle in the slow-mo footage makes this look like a John Woo film.
Digging the CV-11 cap. Dad was on the Intrepid in the 60's
I saw this post and was confused. I didn't know civvie had merch 3 years ago.
The slow motion in the rain was really cool. Also thought it was interesting you could see the hammer fall in the charging handle slot.
Thanks Ian!
Informative as always.
Amazing to see how much rifles flex in slo-mo.
Cheers!
To think: These guns are almost 100 years old and they still fire. They really made things to last in those days.
These two videos about these rifles must have had an amazing amount of time and effort put into them. It shows. Excellent look at these rifles.
Years ago, an acquaintance of mine shot his 1917 at our range on more than one occasion. I was always interested in it. It's one of the reasons I picked up a Lebel. His 1917 had the gas system sealed off. He only had one clip and he never used it. In effect, it was a single shot rifle. At the time I had no idea how rare it was to see one fired.
Even if the unreliability in feeding is inherent to the design rather than just a result of the clips - there doesn't appear to have been any hard-to-clear malfunctions. The firepower advantage relative to a bolt action rifle is clear.
Been waiting for this video for a long time you are the only person on TH-cam to my knowledge to have a video firing one of these thanks awesome video got to keep saving and get one of these
Thanks a lot for giving us this video! :)
such an aesthetically pleasing gun
Two-gun match: RSC 1917 vs RSC 1918 lol
Who will win?
The audience.
Who wins? Not the germans.
Thx Paul ^^
and thx Ian i was waitting for this video for years.
The first rifles semi-auto of History, i'm proud to be french 😊
Thx to present this two fantastique rifles men 👍
Such a handsome gun with its beautiful lines.
this rifle's always been aesthetically pleasing
Great pair of videos IMHO, TY Ian. Interesting shooting sound BTW. Take care!
Seems like these guns need one of the following. 1) Higher powered ammo (to make the bolt stay back long enough for the last round to load. 2) Heavier bolt (to the same effect (giving it more inertia)) 3) lighter spring 4) different mag design. / stronger spring in the mag to push that bullet up fast enough.
I am not a gunsmith, but i think that some of these could solve the pretty consistent loading problem on the last round.
If anyone has more insight on the topic, i would be happy to hear it.
I am a Gunsmith, bumping chamber pressure to make extraction and cycling more realible is always the last option, if it's not working right, putting more umph into it is not a good idea.
This is more so a Manlicher clip problem, as mentioned, it forces the round though the front of the clip, thus widening it temporarily to the size of the rim, this means that the rounds are not lined up straight during feeding all the time, it's an inherient fault with the design, it's made less apparent in bolt action rifles due to not feeding as fast.
Garand got around this problem by making his clips double stack, that means the clip is always wider then the rim of the case, so it won't expand and always will feed properly.
I attribute the issues these two guns haveing old clips, they are much tighter when they are brand new and as stated, they are made to be disposable, not reloaded some 100 years later.
I'd say the main problem is that the rifle is 100 years old and reusing clips that were never intended to be reused.
TheEchoholic do you want a 30.06 chauchat? Because that's how you get a 30.06 chauchat
TheEchoholic Your first two solutions would have opposite effects, no? One would increase bolt travel speed, the other decrease, if I'm understanding the physics right (entirely possible I'm not).
TheEchoholic I'd say a clip cover mod would make fixing the feed failure be simpler. You could have a spot welded tension bar or soft spring that pushes up applying light pressure to the bottom of the rounds in the mag to lift the powder end of the cartridge.
I think you should also show the slow motions videos of the shots that failed. I don't think I've ever seen such a thing on this channel and I think it would interesting to see in detail what happened in those cases
Looks like a pretty snappy recoil impulse. Great vid!
I mean, it seems like an overall decent rifle, especially for something in WW1. But with all these feeding failures you're having, even in a recreational scenario, i can't imagine a war-time scenario in the trenches would be good at all. But looking at it, low-recoil, easy to shoot, as said by Ian himself. I can see it as a good sporting rifle for more traditional use.
as he said the clips are trashed after one use so thats where most of the problems are coming from kinda like the original US GI mags use once then throw away
Definitely but keep in mind these guns are 100 years old. It's entirely possible they need a bit more spring pressure from the follower (or something similar) and had that when the springs were new. 100 years later, they've gone weaker.
Oh, no, i understand that was what was causing most of the feed failures. But if those clips are all that you have available, that doesn't really change my original post. Heck, even if you got brand new clips, if you use these rifles in a wartime scenario, i'm sure they'll fail just as bad, or even worse. All that dirt, and muck getting into the rifle, along with you wearing down the clip shooting at the enemy, wouldn't be good.
So, as i said, i can't see it being very good in the trenches of WW1 (If it can't even fire well enough in a controlled environment such as this one). But if someone wanted to go out to the range, or even go hunting with it, it could be perfect viable.
I know what disposable means. But, looking back at the video again, i guess you're right about mud and dirt not getting into the rifle so easily. Maybe if you use the clips as intended, i guess it would be a lot better than i think.
Karly Johnston even though mr.chauchat participated in its design (RSC means Ribeyrolles Sutter Chauchat)
i think the last round malf is caused by not having enough pressure in the clip holder but its obvious that the springs in a 100 year old gun have deteriorated over time
Question: Have you thought of taking examples of the clips to a metal fabrication shop? Might be worth seeing what it would cost for a production run.
1:40 probably not exactly desired operation but its kinda cool how the brass changed directions lol
Well there's your problem. These failures to feed could be caused by a follower spring which has lost oomph and has a really short amount of time to lift a round (the bolt is only just stopping and coming back, not much over-travel).
I think the hold-open may be designed in that odd way to force troops to pull and release the bolt rather than trying to disengage the hold-open directly. This would reduce wear on tge component.
This had to be a happy day for Ian.
the style of this rifle is very nice.
i always thought about making a company to remake these obscure WWI/WWII semi auto rifles to give the public another opportunity to appreciate the workmanship and history of these firearms for their time. hopefully make them in a more common cartridge if possible without ruining the design. yet i have no gun smithing or manufacturing experience. or money
same with autoloading pistols of the time ie mars automatic pistol. c93 ect
My most favorite rifle in the history of rifles
Very good rifles for WWI it would seem. They seem reliable....for their age. They are easy and fast to reload too. I like them.
really amazing weapons for that time.
The feed lips probably are not tempered or hardened at all. Doing so would likely remedy the problem of deformation (possibly spring tempered) or at least prolong the life of the lips. A fair bit of time and some thin spring steel, one could produce functional clips, and temper them to resist deformation better.
absolutely HUGE fan you probably don't care if you do that's cool but seriously man , self tought myself (somewhat) older guns 1950's then actually studdied and continue to do so and under till Mid 1800's(learned through your videos and knowledge of elders). amazing job you have LITERALLY my dream job. playing with firearms all day. YES PLAYING lol when you find a passion all work becomes play. cud all work and no play makes Johnnie a dull boy lol
Humble beginnings for the self loading rifle
I wonder if they worked better if the feed lips were a lot shorter, like they are today on a modern clip. They probably just need a cutout on the rear to allow the rim to glide on them and travel upwards when the bolt picks the cartridge up to loads it into the chamber.
Love your vids. Very good info on many firearms I’ve never seen or heard of.
My favorite of all the autoloaders of that Era.
And now the quest starts: Figuring out why the last round stops, and how it can be fixed without ruining the gun.
Well that and getting a metalshop to reproduce slightly more resilient clips :P
It is due to the feed lips not holding the last round correctly. When fully loaded the other rounds are supporting round going into the chamber, when you get to the last round the clip alone is holding the round. The malformed feed lips don't hold it correctly so the round is not in the correct location for loading. I have had the same thing happen on my #4 Lee Enfield. Jams on the last round.
Since it was happening with both rifles, and new clips don't exist outside that metalshop, I'd say it's a function of the clips. They were disposable in military service for a reason. Not expecting your troops to collect them after a battle was part of the reason. If doctrine is not to reuse the clips, don't make them well enough to withstand reuse...
RalpGalland I propose something else entirely. Intelligent French Design, the rifle tell you when it's on the last round.
It is amazing as to how much bolt-bounce there is on Semis...
Whe see here that the 8mm Lebel ammo , specific designed for the Lebel rifle tube magazine, is very difficult to adapt for automatic feeding , and the only automatic weapons who realy perfect work with this ammo was the Hotchkiss machine guns with steel feed trips...Only the development from the 7.5 x 54 1929C ammo does realy solve the ammo problem for the french weapons automatic feeding: this ammo was first use on the excellent MAC 24/29 automatic rifle (successor from the Chauchat...), the Reibel MAC 31/34 machine gun, the MAS 36 bolt rifle, the MAS40 prototypes, the MAS 44 and later MAS 49/56 semi auto rifle , the AA52 light machine gun, and the FRF1 sniper rifle (who is based on the MAS36)...7.5 x 54 1929C was use up to 1989, finaly replaced from the 7.62 Nato ...
Initially, I suspected worn springs in the failure to feed the last round. I don't know enough to say whether it's the main spring or the follower, though. That said, looking deeper I believe it could also be the design of the follower...
It's also possible that it's a failure caused by reused clips. There may not be enough tension on the sides of the clip to hold the round in the proper position to place it correctly to be fed.
I find it interesting comparing the mechanics of the RSC design and the M1 Garand. You note that the gas systems are very similar, but Garand also borrowed the same clip design as well. It's certainly changed in the M1, but it also uses a 'disposable' clip with a built-in follower.
In fact, if you compare the RSC and M1 Garand feed systems, the main difference is that the RSC is fed through an arc where the M1 is fed vertically. The M1 design may have used that design specifically to prevent the failure to feed on the last round.
The fact that the M1 ejects the clip out the top is, in my view, a side-effect of requiring a vertical follower system.
They both also were mass produced fire arms
You guys must have read my mind, I was looking for a video of someone shooting one of these beauties just a few days ago, and the closest I found was your video on shooting the WW1 US load out while in US gear. Awesome video!
Thanks, Paul!
The French RSC 17 was tricky too operate. But with proper training that could be fixed. The French soldiers with RSC 17 often lacked that training and careful maintenance. The German secret agent Albert Bartels who operated a guerillia gang from Spanish Morocco between 1916-to 1918 against the French in French Morocco, recorded, that frequentlich the French colonial troups got jammed auto loaders. Yet the volume of fire in a properly maintained RSC 17 was impressive. He picket up many "jammed" RSC 17 from killed white colonial soldiers in French Morocco.
Bartels recruited then Ex Frenchlegionaries .
Bartels picked several ex- Foreign legionaries and gave them a special course of instruction. The former „EX“ were Germans who wanted to help the German cause in Morocco. Bartels trained these picked specialists carefully until they could operate the RSC 17. This gave the Germans an advantage in Morocco where the usual goumier had only single shot Gras rifles. The German squads with RSC 17 could easily roll up French colonial troups with single shot black powder weapons.
Have you ever thought of looking into a local stamping or machine shop to create duplicates? Of the clips.
When you said disposable clip, you weren't kidding.
Ok, generic 90s color pattern. :D
It's cool that people message Ian saying they have a weird gun and asking if he wants to come shoot it, and he's just like, "Yeah, sure!"
Upgrades for the RSC-1917/1918:
Removable single stack mag conversion {with mags produced).
upgraded iron sights.
little sticky at first then just got smoother amazing
The follower spring is probably worn out or degraded after all those years. Otherwise, the feed system is pretty neat, safe to use, no danger of a Garand thumb here. They could have tried to incorporate a Mannlicher-style bottom ejection system for the empty clip, making the rifle a little faster to reload and alert the shooter when he has only one round left.
I thought of a modern version of this RSC system, where stripper clips could be used (since the bottom of the gun opens to load the clip, so it's possible to mount a fixed feed lip on the upper part of the receiver which would limit and hold the clip) and then it would be possible to fit the rounds together with the clip (as if it were an en bloc) and to facilitate reloading, as well as simplify the design, I was inspired by the SKS internal magazine (because due to the simple construction of the internal magazine with just a warped spring, it would be much less complex than the RSC's lever feeding system, in addition to the fact that I would put a bar on top of the magazine cover that would retain the spring, so that it would always keep it somewhat tensioned, even without any rounds, so that when pressing a button that hold the magazine cover, it would be opened and the spring would thrust the feeding system and thus it would not be necessary to manually open the magazine cover and due to gravity the clip would fall) for the design of this supposed feeding system.
The advantage I see in this system is that because it uses stripper clips it would be something very economical and simple to produce, but the disadvantages would be that it would only be possible to have a single stack magazine and also that in comparasion to magazines, the rounds would be much more exposed to the environment and could mess the rounds and jam the weapon (although the clips would most likely be carried in a place that would protect then from the environment). I see that this system would only be practical on bolt-action rifles that use full-powered rifle cartridges, as their magazine capacity is typically more limited.
Ian needs one of these in his collection.
Indeed I do! :)
Thanks a lot !
Any chance to see the Meunier A6 featured on this channel sometime ?
Yes - it's already filmed, just not published yet.
Awesome !! =)
Will you also mention the upgrades that were made to it during the war (shorten length, 10/15 round detachable magazines, night sights...) ?
When it fire it’s surprisingly quiet
For a semi-auto rifle of WW1, it may only hold 5 rounds but it's kinda more silent than some other rifles i have seen firing from other countrys!
gomatus1998c9
Actually it's really loud, so loud that a normal microphone would just record it as a very muffled noise, and without any video editing, would sound awful through speakers.
I'm quite impressed.
Thanks Paul!
@ian
So as you guys say and I also noticed it that you guys are getting the last round stop or you know not fully going into the barrel to be ready to be fired and if I remember correctly on Battlefield one when you got down to the last round and your clip There would be a jam. In other words there would be a feet malfunction on the last round to go from the clip to the gone also I understand why the con Hass
Can you just take a file and grind the hold open catch off? (I wouldn't do it on that antique rifle, but in the trenches, it might be preferable to having to fool with the jam. You can live without bolt hold open)
New possible Tshirt design for Ian?
"Eating Brass"
I love old firearms there's so much history
One of my favorite WW1 guns
I wonder if the PTRD borrowed the magazine design or something since the loading is basically the same for both guns
I know the French expected soldiers to carry their rifles without a round chambered because the rifles had no safety so maybe that had something to do with the position of the bolt when the bolt catch holds it open.
Also, I can really see the similarities between these rifles and the M1 Garand.
I've also thought the Garand had a similar profile to the Kar98az, but that's neither here nor there.
About those last round malfs: Could it be that the ammo you’re using is just a little bit different from what the service cartridge was in WW1? A small difference could make the last round go screwy
The gun it self doesn't look too bad, actualy. That FTF issue has to be about something with catridge or clip/magazine.
It even holds bolt open on last shot, very nice feature for WWI gun.
Pointed bullets and the bolt lockup ridges acting as a ramp seems an obvious problem.
The disconnector is pushing the trigger forward to allow hammer to go all the way down. Does the tigger hits shooters finger with any significant vigor?
Looks like the follower spring needs to be a tiny bit stronger or something, the last round is always hanging a bit lower than the first 4 and never feeding at the right angle
This is super cool for you Ian, I'm glad you had the privileged to shoot a rifle you've wanted so much.
You know, with a little more development i think the French could have still made use of this.
First thing on the list to go is that damn cartridge though.
The reloading method too.
Top loading like an M1 would be slick
That's where their 7.5mm round came in.