Meunier A6: France's First Semiauto Battle Rifle
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ส.ค. 2024
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France began experimenting with self-loading rifle designs in the late 1890s, although most of this work is mostly unknown today. The work was done by the State arsenals, and kept as military secrets, without patents being filed or commercial sales considered. All sorts of systems were developed experimentally, including short recoil, long recoil, and direct gas impingements. The most successful result of the various programs was the A6 model designed by one Etienne Meunier. This rifle was approved for limited production in 1910, but the ever-present bureaucracy meant that by 1913, the production line was still being worked on at the Tulle arsenal.
Semiautomatic rifles were set aside when the Great War broke out in 1914, but when it became clear that the war would not be over quickly, weapons development came roaring back as a priority. The French put the Chauchat automatic rifle into production as a close support weapon, and were looking for a semiautomatic infantry rifle as well. The natural choice was the A6 Meunier, and its production tooling was finished in 1916 and 1013 rifles were built - with 843 of these being sent to the front for combat use.
Unfortunately, while the A6 was the best that had been available in 1910, it was not ready for the rigors of World War One combat. Tight clearances in the long recoil mechanism led to problematic reliability, and the use of a non-standard cartridge really hobbled the rifle. The A6 used a proprietary 7x57mm round (unrelated to 7mm Mauser). This cartridge was quite advanced at the time, and much better than 8mm Lebel, but given the logistic choice between a few hundred semiauto rifles and literally millions of bolt action rifles and machine guns, the 7mm Meunier cartridge was obviously untenable. The project was ended in the summer of 1917 when the RSC 1917 rifle began to come off production lines in substantial quantities.
Special thanks to Paul for letting me share his Meunier with you! Check him out on Instagram: / canadiangunlover
If you enjoy Forgotten Weapons, check out its sister channel, InRangeTV! / inrangetvshow
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Insanity! Othias mentions this gun to Indy in yesterdays special, and today Ian shows it.
Now I just need The Bloke to fire it and Lindybeige to bad mouth it for being French and not a Spandau and the circle is complete!
Tuning3434 What did Othais say about it?
Thanks for reference to Lindybeige. Been following Bloke (and Chap) on Range for a while as well as CapandBall for English language firearms channels giving European (Swiss and Hungarian respectively) perspectives.
I mean he'd dislike it for "French" but I don't think he'd care that it's "not a Spandau"
Yes. But does it fire Pommels?
You really cant end anyone rightly without a pommel
We frogs , we need to kidnap Ian , bring him here , and give him the french citizenship and a Legion d'Honneur.
Nobody on earth has ever paid such a tribute to the french guns history.
“Kidnap”
He’d probably already have his bags packed when you got there.
7:19 I think that I've seen so many internal box mags opened up, seeing one that quick detaches like that just unnecessarily impressed the heck out of me.
The French had so many semi automatic rifles and yet used the lebel until ww2
Owain richards Our military and mostly our generals come from officer schools and are trained to think in a certain way, and that makes them a little bit short-sighted when it is about anticipating and adapting to change. They are good in regular fights were we need strategy but when we need tactic on the battleground and quick adaptation to changing, they tend to be a bit too slow and conservative sadly. An age old problem we have in France.
Maxime Vincent think lots of countries were the same at this period being a bit slow to the new way of fighting
The development of a semi-automatic rifle for the French army was finalized in 1913 with the adoption of the Meunier, but was postponed in perpetuity by the Great War, cause that's not really the ideal time to change your entire supply of rifles and ammunition. After the war development resumed but on a different model, based on the experiences of the war, and in parallel with the development of a stopgap/rear echelon rifle that would replace the aging Lebel. This last part led to the MAS36, a very good bolt action rifle by any standards, and coupled with updated Berthiers it made up most of France's small arm reserve in WW2. The semi-automatic rifle was unfortunately barely finalized by 1940, and would only become France's standard rifle in 1949.
Tl;dr the Meunier couldn;t be adopted, the RSC was not meant to replace anything, then the MAS 40 was cut just short of being issued by WW2. The Lebel wasn;t used that much by then.
Maxime Vincent aren't strategy and tactics basically the same thing?
KL no, strategy is more the grand scheme of things whilst tactics is the operations on the battlefield.
Taking a bridge without damaging it so you can use it to move troops over a river is strategy. Flying in at night with silent gliders so as not to alert the enemy is tactics.
Ghost behind the blinds at 4:03
Hey flak
R u a hacker man?
Ian should put a spook warning on this video, 2spoopy6me
Gun's inventor factchecking Ian from beyond the grave,
Gun's inventor factchecking Ian from beyond the grave,
Gorgeous rifle, was lucky enough to see this exact rifle about a year back before it had been sold. Just an awesome piece!
TheGoldenCaulk where did you see it at. If that isn't to private of course
TheGoldenCaulk IT BROKE NEW GROUNNDDD
kinda gives me SKS vibes in so far as the general look to it.
Poor Ian. This may be one of the most badly missed arms in his collection.
Long recoil firearms have always been fascinating to me. Especially these French long guns, or some handguns.
Loved that video! Was looking forward to it for a long time, thanks!
Big thanks to Paul & Ian... Very interesting review.
Ian, you have the most interesting firearms channel on YT. Thank You, for putting out the content you work hard to produce. God Bless.
Any chance you’d ever be able to take a look at a Madsen Rasmussen 1896 rifle? That is a very interesting military semi automatic rifle, in my opinion.
Toby Wood any considerations to add this to BF1? Perhaps in the medic class?
I have a video on it filmed that hasn't posted yet. Also one on the 1888 Madsen-Rasmussen.
Forgotten Weapons Excellent! Can’t wait to see that one.
Hi Ian! I have a question for you: What do you think about the Manurhin Mr 73? And do you wish test it? (I know it's 2 questions, my bad!!)
Hi Ian, when will you post these videos?
"A lot of self loading mechanism were first developped by french engineers, but they don't get credit for it today because they didn't put them out in the public record".
It's the same for aviation. The Wright brothers get credit today for being the first to achieve flight, but the french Clement Ader was most likely the first to do it in 1891 (12 years before the Wrights), but the whole thing was kept secret by the french military, very interested in the military potential of this new thing called aviation.
that's what happens when you work for tyrants.
Chard, a town near to me in England, bills itself as the home of powered flight. Like many inventions they come together in parts and popular history credits one of them with the whole thing. The Wright brothers get flight because they completed the prize course and had it accredited.
Ader's Eole made only some small bounces, the Wrigth brothers made a real controlled motorized flight. They deserve the first flight credit
300m isn't a small bounce.
jjohnston94 mm
Now THAT has got to be a rare and historic find!
Aramis, Athos, Porthos, and Dartanion all for one and one for all. Keep the great content coming musketeer man
D’Artagnan, if you don’t mind…
Oooh I'm early this time.
I’m not.
I was waiting so long for this gun
My patience has been rewarded
Thank you gun jesus
What a delightfully elegant rifle. Had things gone differently I could see this being a commercial success as a sporting rifle competing with the Model 8, and very popular through Francophone Africa for medium game.
literally was thinking "what was Frances first semi automatic rifle?" thought I'd check, as surely Ian would have made a video on it. well sure enough, and good timing.
Never met a gun I don’t like in some way.
Military semi’s are a passion for me.
Thank you for posting this!
It would be fantastic if you could do a video about the manufacturing techniques and production of firearms during WWI and WWII.
He never says in the video, but this was taped in Canada. Glad to have you visit! It probably wouldn't take much to convert this to 7x57 Mauser
The gods of history will strike you dead on the spot if you convert this to 7x57.
I bet that receiver cover could be modified to take some Weaver mounts.
Welp, Gun Jesus hath spoken, thou shalt not convert this rifle to use 7mm Mauser ammunition.
John Van Swearingen
God forbid someone bubba this for deer.
Also, even if you wanted to convert it to 7mm Mauser, you'd have to re-engineer the entire rifle to get it to work. You'd be slapped around so hard by Murphy's Law, that you'd die of exhaustion before you got to even enjoy the thing.
Very informative
How come everytime I have question in my mind you already provide the answer few seconds later in the video it's like you are a magician or a mind reader. stuff like that makes your Channel awesome and interesting to watch and I truly hope you will entertain us for years' in the future. I'm sorry for the English it's not my home language I hope I got my point across much love greetings from Slovenia
Was waiting this video since ... Oh god, more than a Year.
Paul has a whole lot more discipline and patience than I. If I had one of those it would be in pieces in a box, because I'd have to take it apart and try to "fix" it.
That magazine follower is identical to the Mosin follower except with the extra bar to keep it from tilting.
Its Stream line makes it looks like an Arrow or a sword rather than a rifle: very impressive.
One impression I'm getting of the french from this channel (and elsewhere) is that for better or worse, they like to be the early adopters.
I think "pioneer" is the word you were looking for =D
Yes the French are often pioneers in many area.
Due to the pressure to produce a functional rifle due to the war, it looks like the french looked closely at the only successful autoloaders at the time, that was the John Browning designs of the Auto 5 shotgun and the 1908 Reminton/Fabrique National produced sporting rifles.
That magazine look so happy! :)
I think long recoil is the only system that could work well with black powder. The bolt stays locked until all the gas is vented out, so there is very little residue that can get into the action and clog it after the breech is opened. Imagine this sort of rifle in the 1870's.
Just looking at that charging handle I couldn’t help but think of how many machining operations would go into that when they could have saved time/money by just making it straight where the hook starts
I'm also watching Madame Curie (1943) this morning. Pertinent to this rifle because of the discovery of Radium for radioluminescent night sights like this rifle had, and her pioneering use of mobile X-Ray equipment for field hospitals during WWI.
Can you do a "recoil explanation" video like the ammunition and machine gun ones pls. Recoil names and types always get me
If it's your you gotta get her operational, would love to see it function.
That was great.
I click on this video,
"Hey! This is going to be the most important video you'll watch today!"
I smack the skip ad button before it even loads over and over again to get my far more important learning for today.
Go away, TH-cam. Im not here for you.
VIVE LA FRANCE
Had to pause an InrangeTV video for htis, I'll go back to that in a moment, I promisse.
That magazine mechanism reminds me of the Mosin Nagant magazine springs.
I see a Forgotten Weapons video, I click Like :)
Concerning the night sights: where they radio-active (Radium?) or luminescent?
Will this rifle be restored to firing condition? Is there even specs available for the ammo?
I didn't here him say anything that suggested this gun wasn't in firing condition assuming you had ammo that was appropriate for the gun nor did I see any obvious defects.
The barrel stuck to the inside of the sleeve may be considered a hindrance when it comes to the operation of a long recoil gun...
piritskenyer just a bit
piritskenyer It's in perfectly fine condition as a single shot rifle!
The rifle does not need to be restored... it is in perfect working order. There was only a bit of dried grease sticking the barrel to the barrel guide.
Oh yes! At last. I shall always dream of owning one of these. The RSC 1917 comes first however.
Wonder if anyone would be able to make a Meunier reproduction that looks as good as this. Because it looks like a pretty damn good Semi-Auto.
that's a lot of moving hardware . . . bang, bang . . . klunk
Lakewood Ed I can see the gun owner having a fit at that point. :D
Ian...I have an idea and was wondering if you have ever seen one as such..It is a double split action with a blow forward barrel with action rods and a lever stirrup setup that also cycles a bolt carrier assembly...hence the feed / extraction times are lessened as well as opposing forces cancelling recoil...I think it could be adapted for pistol,rifle or shotgun...thank you
Laird Cummings ..actually it has a gas tube with a "piston plug "that the tube with action bars impinges against..barrel blows forward pulling action bars forward..pivoting th bolt carrier lever stirrup that moves the bolt back in basically a half stroke..
Laird Cummings ..the B.C assembly and the barrel technically would only have to clear the next round in the mag ...splitting the feed/ extraction time basically in half ..Some H&K actions have a stirrup lever system in B.C. assembly...I do appreciate any input..twas just a mechanical pondering on my part..
Ian have you ever been able to get your hands on the charlton automatic rifle? Reminds me of the Howell automatic rifle
The brand "Manure*" might lead people to think its Crappy
Ian, the ultimate Ouiaboo.
More French weapons pls, je les aime
Was that a luminous dot on the receiver behind the stripper clip guide? And if so I'm guessing to aid in reloading in low light conditions
TH-cam should be paying you...
They do
Superbouncybubble youtube doesn't pay gun youtubers anymore.
He's not mocking japanese corpses in the forest, so he doesn't meet TH-cam's payment plan guidelines.
Because, marketing dead bodies to children is family friendly, but historical information on firearms and the art being marketed to adults? That's downright terrorism!
@@xmm-cf5eg To be fair to your gross exaggeration and oversimplification, people could use a lot of this info to hurt and kill people and TH-cam has every right as a private business to decide how they spend their money, just like I do. I like what Ian and Karl do so I give them my money, I don't whine that a private corporation or the state isn't giving them money, and I AM a fucking socialist/communist, defending goddamn capitalism. I feel unwell. They probably make more via Patreon than they ever did with TH-cam ads anyways, although I respect Karl's fight.
Would be nice if they followed through with their own rules and got stopped paying that Logan guy though, and a few people that very clearly break the rules they have setup, regardless of how many fans they have. I don't expect companies to have principles, but to at least follow their own fucking rules.
Does anybody know how they figured out the shape of the ramp that the rear sight adjuster rides on? Did they work it out on paper theoretically or test it empirically?
On the stock "juillet" means july , june is "juin" , but a very good video as usual !
I knew you'd be looking at this as soon as he put it on his Instagram
who else noticed they borrowed the stock of a mosin also similar for the internal magazine(sort of),and by the way was the ross rifle mk(4 or 3?) semi automatic or was it a bolt action
I spent about ten minutes thinking of how to help get that nose cap off before I realized there probably isn't ammo for this basically experimental rifle any more so getting it back to firing condition is likely more trouble than it's worth.
How do you unstuck that jam on the barrel ? Application of heat and repeated light strikes until it start cycling ?
Weird baguette gun
DANNYonPC you think they'll add this thing into BF1?
Ah! An escapee from the Salt Mines breaks cover! :)
If they add this weapon I hope they add a Factory and Extended (15 rounds magazine)
DANNYonPC firing 7.57mm french fries
Rick Ansell r/spoilers
that's a really cool gun
What was the world's first ever semi-auto rifle? Any chance you could do a video on that one too, if any examples of it still exist?
The more i read and watch about French military history the fascinated i am.
The long recoil Remingon Model 8s were also ordered by the French for the Air Service
wow i was just looking up this rifle and couldnt find it
Ok now I see where the Gallian standard rifle from Valkeria chronicles comes from
I want to see a video about the A6 Carbine!
Nicest rifle magazine follower system ever seen.
The term 'point blank' [also in some sources as 'point zero'], in some older technical firearms manuals, references the bore of the rifle held parallel to ground, and the 'point blank' being that location where centerline of axis of bullet, drops below centerline of bore, hence site set at 'zero' or blanc. [This can be calculated mathematically, btw.] Point 1[ 100yds (or meters if applicable) would be 'point one', etc. when centerline of bore is raised from parallel to ground to start trajectory. In current modern nomenclature, is this considered to contemporary definition of 'point blank'? (Definitions do change over time.)
Wow. That system seems unusually complex. I am having a hard time getting my head around the whole barrel moving. I wonder if the moving barrel affected accuracy.
the Remington Model 8 and 81 did not really have accuracy problems on a benchrest or even when free handing to my recollection of all reports. People typically get something like 1.5 MOA from these guns at 100 meters. Not bad for 100+ year old guns. Its more the kick and recoil that is the main issue, but as we have seen in the GM6 lynx, some smart design can mitigate all of that.
you should do a video on the Winchester 1907 .351!!
is that also a luminescent dot next to the stripper clip guide?
Probably Radium, if it is in fact luminescent, Happy late Birthday Mad. Curie!
Do any modern removeable box magazines use a spring sytem like that? It would collapse a lot more than a simple coiled spring and would mean higher capacity or shorter equivalent mag. A heavy leaf spring and a series of staggered 'X' plates like in this magazine should work in theory. Is it a matter of cost or is it just an unnecessary complication?
It works for 5 rounds but not 30. You can try but it's not going to work
Both
Hey Ian, do you know if any examples of the Faucon Meunier are still floating around?
Are any of those sweet sounding Air Service rifles among the survivors? They sound pretty interesting. Awesome video, I loved it even with the disassembly limitations.
bDEREZZED I'm no expert but I doubt it, because the owner of this one believes it's the only privately owned meunier A6 in the world.
www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/05/12/the-most-advanced-gun-in-the-world-in-1916-the-meunier-carbine/
So were those the first luminous sights then?
Looks like Ian has a ghost. Top left door pane, early in the vid. :)
It would be cool if you looked at the Vz. 24, I personally own one in good shape
Is that dot next to the stripperclip guide a luminescent dot for nighttime reloading?
Did most of the problems stem from that tight fit on the front shroud/cover?
Is that a luminous dot right next to the stripper clip guide? For night use?
That barrel looks really long. What was the length and how did it compare to other rifles at the time?
Would it be better to have the front sight attached to the barrel itself, so having a lose fit between the hollow tube and barrel would not hut the accuracy, and resulting in a more reliable gun? (Of course having a cut out in the tube for the sight to be able to slide back would be required)
sounds like a quick workaround.
Weird but somehow handsome rifle. Mechanism is a bit to complicated and delicate for military but I can bet that if they would work more on it(tests and opinions in the field) it would end to be more popular.
2950fps is actually 900m/s.. For a 139gr 7mm bullet in early 20th century that's something.. It would be a superb round even by today's standards.. Actually getting a 6,5 Creedmore or a modern 6,5x55SE round to push a 140gr bullet at that speed would need some proper handloading and a looong barrel.. A really stout .308 rounds push a 150-155gr bullet at that velocity and they sure don't reach it with 20" barrels either. Respect to monsieur Meunier!
Its not june actually its july
Yeah. Kind of surprised he'd make that mistake.
Yep. Noticed it too.
Have you looked into doing a video on the Colt MARS?
Possible Precursor to the SVT-40 Variants & SKS?
Is it more common to see cannons with long recoil system?
9:18 the amount of clearance at .005 to
.008 inches is loose as far as fine fitment goes.
was that a ghost at 4:05 in the top left window pane?
The algorithm brought me to this video today.
What's interesting is that every military on the planet knows that 7mm is just about perfect and flirts with adopting it but always chokes before they can get it into service! This one,Pederson, EM-2 ,ETC !
reminds me strongly of a sks
Have you ever come across a R-76(or 77)? Looks like a limited production Rhodie Smg. Could be some interesting history!
I'm getting a lot of SKS vibes from this.
Isn't the M2 Browning long recoil operation?
No, it is short recoil operated. The most common long recoil long gun that comes to mind is the Browning Automatic 5.
So based on your experiences with holding and point this rifle, what would your choice be if between this and the RSC 1917-18? Does it handle better in the hands or is it less practical etc. Can't judge the shootability I guess with the sticky barrel...
Absolutely the RSC-1918.
Is it lighter or just more user friendly in general?
5:20 July, not june, just sayin' :)
I imagine all that flopping back and forth from the action doesnt feel too handy when trying to fire accurately in a life or death situation.
Video on the fn-49 soon?
Im surprised..a French weapon...and Ian ISN'T DROOLING LOL
Believe me, he was!
Stephen Forster upon reflection I know he was..whilst the camera was on the rifle