"... who also happens to be one of two female main characters and the single main character of colour." Oh, I see. You are one of those people or becoming one of them. Well before I leave forever let me give you a warning: Social justice rotes the brain and is neurotoxic for stories. Soon you won´t be able to think critically anymore because you will see everything through a lense: A show about the Norman conquests will seem terrible to you because there are no black characters in it and a bad film will seem great because it checks enough boxes to be considered diverse. I have seen it enough happen enough times to know where that leads to, so this is goodbye.
Something you may be missing is a lot of this movie may be In Arthers head and he's telling the story to a therapist it isn't one for one his actual origin
I just kind of interpreted these kind of one dimensional “awful people” as being that way because Arthur is the one telling the story. In his view they are all awful and he was right to be upset. At the end you’re not even sure whether any of the story even happened or if Arthur just imagined it all, or maybe some of it was true and he was just exaggerating certain parts. I agree that a foil character would have been really cool though.
i think the psychiatrist at the end should have been harley wuinn, so the whole movie is about arthur telling her his side of the story and thats how he got her to be sympathetic to him. (just end it with revealing her name badge or something).
My take on the movie after seeing it was that it stands on the shoulders of the more nuanced conversation of The Dark Knight, and only shallowly references issues of mental health. That said, I have seen the Dark Knight and spend most of my leisure studying mental health; so the movie was quite enjoyable in that I could fill it in with my own thoughts on the topic and imagine Arthur’s interior. This movie is inherently limited, but I personally enjoyed it.
I can see what you're saying about sophie, but I did think it was a little clever, that, like you said, she was weirdly chill about being stalked, and the audience just accepted that bc rom coms have kind of trained movie audiences to accept that's how relationships with the protagonist work, right? and then arthur meets her in the real world and she's creeped out. and we realise it was an idealised relationship, a literal dream relationship all along. and that's why she was so accepting. I thought that was clever.
Yes i think others characters like the dwarf and the little black boy could have more screentime so they would be estabilish as the light in the middle of the darkness of Gotham which Arthur would sucumbe
After that reveal I was hoping that other things about Arthur's interactions with people would start being revealed as fake or unreliable. My main problem with the film is that so many of the people Arthur interacts with don't act like people. That could be fine if we're seeing things through Arthur's perspective and that gets slowly stripped away to show that he's been manipulating us with his story. Instead there's just the ending which doesn't achieve the same thing.
I thought it was a bit too obvious she was a hallucination. I was honestly surprised I was the only person to realize it(her lauding the killer of the Wall Street guys as a hero was what made me whisper to my friend 'Yup, this is a Fight Club moment.")
Arthur was too weird for anyone to date. I feel like Nando is pushing too hard against the idea "incels don't exist, if you can't get a date you're just toxic!"
"Cartoonishly" bad things happen to people everyday. It does trigger me when people think a domino effect of bad things is unrealistic. The real world can be and IS far crueler than arthur flecks life.
Its cartoonish since its taken to such a degree that the scenrio seems impossible to happen. People fan be bit it dosent usually happen like that. The biggest example of this is the kids. Why woukd kids take his poster tahn right after beat him up? Uf you chock it up to its just that they are bad then it feels more forced suffering for the sake of shoving his life is terrible narratuve in the audience's face. Thats my two cents
I actually disagree with you on this one, Nando. The whole point of Joker was to explore Arthur's tortured diseased psyche. It wasn't about anyone challenging his beliefs, it was about showcasing his descent into madness. Even if she DID prove to be imagines by Arthur, her role in the movie is still important. Notice how, in the elevator scene, Sophie made the "gun to the head" gesture to Arthur. From then on, the Fake-Sophie shows up whenever Arthur had been at his lowest point, or alone (i.e. after he was fired, when his mother was in the hospital, etc.). So, with the revelation that Sophie was all in Arthur's head the whole time, that means that her purpose of the movie is to be a symbol for a part of Arthur's psyche. So, since she made that "gun to the head" gesture, then that means that Sophie is representative of Arthur's suicidal thoughts. Arthur didn't start out angry. He's depressed. Everyone around him hates him, stigmatizes him, thinks he has no worth, etc. He felt powerless to the bullying society around him. So, when he murdered those people, he finally found a sense of power and control. However, that still doesn't change that it was wrong. Notice how distressed he was afterwards. That was only the beginning of his descent. As the movie goes on, Arthur's life continues to fall apart, which only contributes to his depression, which leads to suicidal thoughts, "physically" represented by Sophie. It's like Arthur's "flirting with suicide." However, after he goes to Arkham and finds out the truth, we then when we get the scene where Sophie was revealed to be all in Arthur's head. Arthur is no longer depressed. He is ANGRY. So now, Arthur isn't imagining Sophie anymore. However, because of how he's been treated, he doesn't know what else to do with his anger, but to lash out, and that's when the Joker is born. Having Sophie be a fully realized character in the movie takes away from the film's true focus, which is Arthur's psyche.
I was going to comment this but you beat me to it. I can't agree more. You have to remember that this is suppose to be a origin. The foil is Batman who comes later. This isn't a typical story because it happens before the typical story.
I think the point was that the film was about his descent into madness, so most of what we see is how he sees the world. Obviously, the world isn't that bad, but to people suffering from depression and anxiety, etc, they do actually kinda see the world like it is cartoonish evil.
I feel like this would have been more likely the point if they DIDN'T show flashbacks of Sophie being "real" because then we wouldn't have known what was real and what wasn't. We could have considered him an unreliable narrator. But by showing us that his interactions with Sophie weren't real, it implies that that's the only part that was false and everything else was real.
@@petrenicolae3282 it doesn’t really make sense for the character of Joke tbh. sure he may disregard social and moral norms, but that doesn’t mean just “doesn’t believe in anything” a lot of his incarnations are usually concerned with the likes of causality, destiny, and fate as he relates to Batman
No, I have to disagree with this one. The whole point of Arthur's character is his profound and steadily increasing isolation. Having him in a normal relationship undermines that to the detriment of the film.
Sorry, I haven't actually seen the movie but wouldn't the steadily increasing isolation be more effective if he had more people to isolate himself from? As described in this video he does eventually isolate himself from her too. If he's isolated from the beginning it would lose some punch because it's just the same, nothing is actually increasing or decreasing. Idk, I'm sure I'm missing lots because I haven't seen it but does adding another character he loses/gets isolated from really undermine the point? (genuinly curious)
@@katherinesanderson8990 Except having her never exist in the first place is the most effective way to show his isolation. Not only does it show that he's so desperate for human connection that he makes one up, but it also shows that the real version of the person he imagined to be his girlfriend is actually terrified by him.
I can't buy Arthur fleck becoming the joker with such a relationship in the movie. In fact, the relationship was taking me out of the movie UNTIL it was revealed as fake, as it didn't seem like a guy like that would have a woman
@@ShadeSlayer1911 That's when he's Joker. While both Arthur and Joker are the same person, they're both very different. Arthur was a depressed, shy & mentally ill loner. Joker is an energetic, charismatic and out-going maniac. Harley always liked that stuff about Joker, even before joining him.
I agree. I was really taken by surprise when he, in full clown make-up, just walks into her apartment and starts making out with her. It felt really, really like we were missing some scenes--but it made sense later when it's revealed it's his fantasy, and it never happened. Notice, how even through his fantasy, because he's making her up--she doesn't really have much to say or personality to show--which makes sense: It seems he's never had close relationships to women outside of his mother, so he doesn't *understand* women as human beings, but as *others* who care-take for him like his mother has done.
well challenging him so heavily and with such an iron clad argument leaves very little room for him to actually still do the wrong thing without completely destroying the feelings the film has worked so hard to cultivate. you have to just continually beat him into the ground at every turn and you cant give him a way out, thats the point, he has to be so hopelessly lost that he cant be found. these arguments aren't allowed in the film, they would ruin the character work. the point is that its where the character goes wrong, is forced into the worst circumstances, not where he gets the best circumstances but decides differently.
I think making Arthur have an actual relationship with Zazie Beetz's character changes the film drastically. It was that 'dumb' reveal where the film established Arthur as an unreliable narrator, and that ambiguity has always been essential to the Joker's character. Nando's version is also a lot more conventional, especially for a film that is already receiving enough criticism for being too close to Taxi Driver & King of Comedy.
Except King of Comedy managed this concept much better with Rupert shown at times to hold some truth to what he says but other times, we slowly begin to wonder which parts are lies, while still giving him a relationship where the person calls him out for his actions. Even Falling Down does this concept well, where William Foster can be unreliable with the things he says or does, but still has people who aren't just awful, that call him out for how insane he's going.
I'm not sure I agree with your takeaway from this film, especially about its message. Joker is not trying to convince you that Arthur is right. He's wrong. He's clearly wrong, and moreover he doesn't even really believe it himself. The Joker is not a revolutionary, he's not a political activist, he's a nihilist, and that's what makes the character so great. He's not willing to debate, because by the end of the film he's lost all sense of right and wrong. You may agree that the rich get what they deserve here, but if you do Arthur isn't your character, your character is the guy in the clown mask holding up a sign. I don't think the film is trying to make a particular point about austerity or mental health or wealth inequality or any of these other points, because the Joker isn't. It's couched in that context, but that's not the point of the film. Arthur doesn't understand these things, and so the film doesn't attempt to either. Frankly I think if the film did try to preach to us about messages it would be the worse for it. But hey, that's just my opinion.
Patrick Ellis - I for one appreciated how the movie stood back and let the audience just be alone with Arthur. Nando’s version of the movie sounds way more generic; Joker would approve of how his movie has next to no plot.
@@mrdyer1006 I'm not sure if he's going to deep so much as misunderstanding the depth. Yes, the film does cover some serious topics, but the film also deliberately doesn't go into them, and I for one think that was a correct and deliberate decision.
Patrick Ellis I agree and the evidence for this is right there. Arthur also literally says “no I don’t believe in any of that stuff ...... I don’t believe in anything”
I kind of get what you mean. It looked a little too red in my opinion, though no they were going for something more reminiscent of Caesar Romero’s Joker (even though he did not wear a red suit).
I loved this movie, because of the anxious tone throughout the whole movie. The movie felt depressing and I felt the struggle the whole way through the movie. What do I know, but that’s what I liked this movie.
Well, looks like another person who completely missed the point of the movie itself. You're not supposed to be presented with a reason for why Arthur is wrong, you're supposed to literally judge his actions for what they're worth so as to create your own moral center. The movie itself is an anti-Rorschach Test in a lot of ways, it's an attempt to get the audience to see what the film is presenting instead of having them see whatever else they see. Meaning that there is a clear message in the film and the series of events makes it very clear what we're supposed to do morally, with Arthur's character. People who say, "Joker should have been challenged" or "I don't think the movie says x, y, and zed... it's saying a, b, sid..." are either intentionally or unintentionally missing the point. As for Joker being in the wrong, therefore the movie should say as such, are people who don't want a character study, they want the movie to preach a message at them so they don't feel uncomfortable empathizing with, what is in essence, a sociopathic murderer. Of course people like Nando here don't get that you're supposed to empathize with the situations Arthur is put in but at the same time you're capable of judging his actions as being bad ones. The reason I say this is because Nando and others, deliberately leave out important details to the movie that would otherwise ruin their entire interpretation of the film or their "rewrites."
This was literelly the point of the movie, its a character study and adding another character aka hero or batman it will mess the whole point of the movie, its about this character and onpy this characters mindset and devolopment
I was wondering the same thing. He must not understand the point of joker being an unreliable narrator or multiple choice history he famously said. The movie is completely from his point of view. Of course he isn't going to be detailed about others. Even the gun part when it's given to him isnt really realiable
Arthur's counselor should have been that character. She should have been a compassionate character who actually cares and is trying in her own way to make things better.
Agreed, i think even if they kept Zazie as a delusion, humanizing the social worker and having her try to help Arthur and have him push her away would've made the narrative much more compelling and actually given Arthur some agency
This. During the whole first half of the movie (there was a break in my cinema) I was feeling that something was not right. I think it's the social worker. She doesn't contribute anything vital to the plot. She should be the one to challenge his views etc.
@@mon_nobi While I agree that I wish there was a bit more of her near the end, I do like that that she's seemingly not that interested in Arthur's problems. Her last conversation with Arthur does humanize her a bit when she talks about how the system doesn't care about either of them. It gives me the sense that she isn't just some cold hearted person with no empathy but rather that she's also depressed and has been beaten down by the system kinda like Arthur. I think adding more lines of dialogue or scenes that show/imply that the reason she doesn't care about Arthur's problems is because she gets paid terribly, has a depressing life, or has to deal with tons of people like Arthur is the way to improve her character. Also, I think your missing the point of Arthur's arc if you think he needs more agency in the first act. The whole point of Arthur's character arc in this film is how he feels like he has no agency in his life until he finally dawns the Joker persona and dances his way down the stairway of madness. He's only really suppose to be a proactive character when he becomes the Joker, not when he's Arthur Fleck.
@@mon_nobi I find your comments interesting because she did try to help him. This video just says "no she didn't" which is a blatant lie so it hints to folks like me that you guys never watched the movie, you watched this inaccurate video.
While ironically while the change of keeping a character isn't a big change, how Nando suggest keeping the character dramatically changes the movie. Which I'm fine with, just saying it's a different movie with this change.
I personally don’t feel that this change is making the movie substantially different. It does add another layer to the movie, makes some complexity to Arthur’s character and makes him - as Nandi said - checked and challenged. Yet, we don’t need Arthur to be checked or questioned. This movie was a story from Arthur’s point of view. It remains a story from Arthur’s point of view even with all the changes Nando suggested.
Nando v Movies I’ve been brainstorming ideas myself. One of those ideas involves altering the continuity of the films to incorporate the events of Bumblebee into the overall story and ignoring the events of The Last Knight entirely.
I love how the same pose is used when Arthur looks at his reflection in the bathroom as later in the movie when he is looking on his followers, his new reflection or sense of identity
Me: Really Nando you posted a video before finishing your Defenders rewrite? What’s wrong with you Also me: ooh another Nando v Movies video Also Arthur’s co-worker lying about giving Arthur the gun is not cartoonish mean it’s realistic he doesn’t want to get in trouble but still I get your point
For the co-worker giving him the gun, how evil depends on how you see what motivated him into giving the gun, did he was sincere when he gave the gun, or was he lying a trap to him
Its like... the foil to the Joker... The one that truly calls him out on his horrible actions.... Isnt in the movie, well not in an old enough atleast.
Honestly the idea of using Sophie in this way seems tropey and lazy...I agree he needed someone to contradict him. But the idea of a women being with Arthur and almost being able to "save" him and clearly working way harder than him, a literal murderer with an untreated neurological problem seems toxic and like a bad idea to me. Love your videos but I'm not sold on this one
As he points out, a black single mother is an extremely marginalised person. Using her as the mouthpiece for "Don't fight back against an unfair system! Maybe just work harder!" is pretty gross imo.
@@garblechunk But he doesn't fight, he lashes out. He doesn't fight for anything, he just takes his hurt out on the world. That's the point a marginalized person can bring across. You can build, you can be better. Not by giving up, but by not using pain as an excuse to do whatever you want.
Realistically joker is a crazy person who’s off his meds, I really don’t think he could hold a conversation with her let alone go on a date with her Also the missing character should be Batman, but in like a sequel or sum
BUT THAT WAS THE POINT OF THE MOVIE You said on tweeter that any changes on this movie will result in this comment from fans.There you go,I said it without even watching the video
As much as I admire your re imagining of the movie, I would like to share my own interpretation: the movie has no direct message. Rather, it presents to us the question- what makes a monster? Is it Lies? Loneliness? Suffering? The movie is not trying to argue that Arthur was right. He is clearly wrong. But it is just trying to bring home the fact that his transformation into a nihilist could happen to anyone. And the fragility of the world is all the more exposed for it. My point is, the Sophie reveal showed us how truly estranged he is from the world around him, and that's what made his descent into madness all the more believable... And bone-chillingly relatable.
Here's my change: Arthur was imagining the relationship but the actual confrontation between him and Sophie is real (the scene where he broke in her apartment)
Also small connection that I kinda like with this movie change that idk if you meant to do. Arthur hung onto the past and became the joker. Bruce looked to the future and became the future
"An interesting movie would feature a more complex society." That I can somewhat agree with. I love this movie, I think it's brilliant, but that is a valid point.
The idea that she SENDS in the video is awesome. I remember watching the film and questioning if the TV show people actually got the footage. It seemed so...weird. Love the idea of an important character taking that step.
While I do agree with your assessment in some ways, I do have to point out that the one concern I have with your proposed version is of Arthur is sort of reliant on being a higher functioning person. I actually left the theater with similar thoughts to this video, but my partner pointed out to me that as someone who heavily suffers from depression and a few other mental illnesses, she found it both realistic and refreshing (from the standpoint of raising awareness) that they *DID* make everyone around Arthur seem one sidedly awful. She explained to me that she often only sees the bad things and moments in her life, and that she has to often struggles to remind herself that things are not always as bad as they first appear to her. If the story wasn't being told *from* Arthur's perspective it might be different, but one of the points of the movie seemed to be precisely that...Arthur WAS a victim of an uncaring society that refuses to acknowledge mental illness. Murray's critique of him, while valid of someone being lost in self pity, still missed this point. A potential option that could've included Sofie and him actually trying to date but flashing back to their dates going radically different than how he first imagined them might've worked, but quite a number of people who suffer from mental illnesses often struggle to even hold a normal conversation, something the movie shows quite well, much less relationships. Doubly so if they are unmedicated. Personally? I'd have rather his coworker that he spare have been the one to critique him than her.
This is an excellent analysis. It's true that many people with mental illnesses (especially depression) automatically see things through a negative lens. Especially since this is Arthur's perspective, everyone is very mean and cruel. I also like your idea of the dates going differently than how he sees it. That would've been even better to communicate the fact that Arthur's perspective is unreliable.
Amazing as always! Even though I liked the movie in general and Phoenix was phenomenal, I did feel something was missing. Couldn't really put my finger on it. So, thank you so much for explaining that inconsistency so clearly! Really love your channel and your work!
I see where you’re coming from and you form your point really well and with great conviction. However, giving Arthur a way out is not the point of the movie. There are plenty of films that explore people who have opportunities to do right and choose wrong this movie is depicting a man who society has abandoned and left with no other way out. I think your criticism is an indication that the film succeeded in telling the story of the Joker. Also Sophie dating him being a figment of his imagination was a great twist. It subverted the Hollywood expectation that it’s okay to stalk a girl and start a relationship that way. I never found it realistic that a man like Arthur Fleck would attract a woman like Sophie and instead of being a traditional film joker acknowledges that reality and I appreciate it for that.
I like the "real girlfriend" idea! She would make a great foil for Arthur. I understood the film to be written deliberately vague, to show Arthur as an unreliable narrator with a mysterious past, as Joker is depicted in canon. However, this idea left a lot of missing scenes and an unclear movie. For example, Arthur's birth parents, adoption and child abuse are never shown in flashbacks. His mother Penny is never shown working for, sleeping with nor stalking Thomas Wayne in a past era. That would probably look like Fatal Attraction. Her records show no arrests for stalking or restraining orders from Wayne, either. Neither Penny nor Arthur are shown being involuntarily committed to Arkham Psychiatric Hospital. Their symptoms and diagnoses are not shown. A depressed person would be in bed all day and miss school and work. There would be suicide attempts, resulting in hospitalizations at Arkham. A schizophrenic person would hallucinate, like the bird transformation and melting paintings in Black Swan. A stalker would make lots of phone calls, follow their survivor around, take pictures, window peep and have a Wall of Crazy and arrests for trespassing and harassment. Someone with antisocial personality disorder would have a police record for delinquency, animal cruelty and arson, since childhood. Nor are they shown watching Murray Franklin's show during Arthur's childhood, when they are lifelong fans. Rather than the unexplained theft of Arthur's sign, street chase and alley beating by delinquents, I would instead have them mug him at a bus stop or subway station, take his watch and wallet and hospitalize him with fractures and a concussion, making him miss work, resulting in his boss either docking him for absenteeism or reluctantly paying worker's comp. After killing the Wayne Trio on the subway, I would have Arthur also shoot his boss for firing him and most of his colleagues, since one lied about arming him and the rest complained about his not-shown creepy behavior After Arthur's rescue from police by rioters, I would have him make a speech similar to his on-air rant on Murray Franklin, perhaps a nihilistic, misanthropic, eat-the-rich one with "dead baby" jokes and an uncontrollable Evil Laugh, to show his solidarity and newfound leadership. As an aspiring comedian, Arthur must have "killed" or gotten laughs occasionally, to justify his ambition and idealism. The 1981 setting should have shown more '80s fashions and music, such as Miami Vice and hip-hop clothes, mullets and Jeri curls, Michael Jackson, Madonna, Prince and Wham, to establish the period. The TV news should have more realistically mentioned drug dealers, gangs and serial killers, rather than off-camera "super rats" and a garbage strike. That's way more scary and better shows Gotham's decadence. Finally, I would show Arthur playing pranks and inventing his iconic Joker Venom (proven plausible on Because Science), high-voltage hand buzzer and other Deadly Pranks, fighting past Thomas Wayne's more realistic Michael Jackson security, killing him for his rejection and escaping police with them.
Alternative additional or changed character: If you want to keep the relationship with his neighbor a hallucination you can change a different character that adds a moral opposite to Arthur. Make one of the cops investigating the subway murders...Jim Gordon
This is perfect! You never fail to make movies better. You should be a screenwriter for real. Disclaimer: After reading additional comments, I realize that Arthur's view of others is extremely negative because the story is being told solely from his perspective. While your analysis is great, it makes sense why no one is there to challenge Arthur's views because Arthur is an isolated person. People with mental illness usually view life in a negative lens and it is realistic to depict a narrator who sees everyone as evil. He can only fantasize of a perfect relationship without actually pursuing one.
Joker did raised the issue..which it did it's job...but if Joker had taken a actual side on these issues..then it would have been bad..the thing is,,it really leaves us audiences ambiguous and guessing the reason on what actually did made him snap..was it the mental issues,or was it the classism or was it's own anger...if Joker had taken a stand on a particular reason of his snap..then we wouldn't have a proper Ambiguous and mysterious Joker origin
marvel something he says he doesn’t believe anything and isn’t political. It’s pretty obvious he just enjoys the attention and that he has people who will follow him.
They'd have to change Arthur's character a bit to make him able to have an actual conversation let alone a relationship. During the movie I thought "why would anyone date this guy?" then the reveal..
What if the gf wasn’t a neighbor? What if, after social service funding is cut, students seeking real-life experience do pro-bono work instead of paid professionals? Arthur gets assigned by Gotham University to a determined, but marginal, psychology student. That student goes waaayy beyond the bounds set by the University for contact with “patients.” That student is Harleen Quinzel.
Now THAT would have been a far better, because more captivating, psychologically interesting, thematically promising and overall suitable choice than simply turning "mono-dimensional always agreeable to isolated Arthur's momentary emotional needs dream girl" from a psychologically motivated, placative yet clever symbol of lack and forloreness into a manifested mono-dimensional, mono-purpose, utterly stale "other"/what-if? plot device that would not even change anything about the movie's outcome - except making it more formulaic and watered down by adding a pseudo-conflict that ultimately didn't go anywhere.
The movie, in my opinion, is supposed to show you the series of events that casue a complete disregard for human life and a hatred for authority. It's built to carry the audience through the mud and come back out of it with the joker, a terrifying killer. It doesn't matter how much sense Murray's speech makes, Arthur doesn't care, so it doesn't matter who delivers the speech. Arthur having a girlfriend by his side would make the movie wayy closer to the other two movies you talked about, and makes him normal enough to have a love interest, which he shouldn't be.
Hey Nando, I love your videos, and I know you mostly stick to movies, but it'd be fascinating to see your take on the Doom Patrol tv show and what could be changed or simply your ideas for season 2. Thank you for the consistently great content, and I look forward to watching this video.
@@NandovMovies Hey, back from the video. Fantastic stuff, and I hope to catch the livestream. I think Doom Patrol would work great as a podcast video, and it addresses some of the shortcomings you mentioned in the Boys episode.
@@NandovMovies either way, definitely finish the series if you have time, and if you can get your hands on either the Gerard Way or Grant Morrison series it's 100% worth owning and reading.
You're one of the few who remembers how bad Zack Snyder DC movies are. Everyone else seems to remember those movies more fondly now than they did at the time ever since Justice League wasn't all it could be and Snyder's unmade version sounded like it could've been better when we all know his execution of promising-sounding Snyder scripts is far removed from the potential of said Snyder scripts. But that's the nature of being in everyone's rearview mirror now: you're looked more fondly upon that way.
Going, to be honest, I actually disagree with you here. I like the fact that the story is so black and white because it is told from a biased perspective. This is the joker's story so of course, it isn't going to be a bit abnormal. And doing the fake girlfriend reveal here set the precedent that we cannot believe what is real and what isn't which makes the ending of the movie a lot more interesting. As well considering how obvious it was that Taxi Driver and KOC were influences, I think the less that it copies from those movies the better. However, I still do think you raise an interesting point, always look forward to seeing your videos.
The movie wasn’t missing a character. This character was in the movie. You just have some odd need to give her a bigger part because she’s... what? Black and female? And no it’s not me pointing out she was black and female as a issue, it’s NANDO who pointed it out as a issue... for some bizarre reason in a story that’s not about race or gender.
Nando, love your videos broseph, but I respectfully disagree with your changes to Joker. I think that a much better change to this movie would be to beat him down even a bit more, because Joker's whole shtick is that one bad day can turn anyone into him. I really appreciate the work you put into this, as well as I see where you are going with your changes, and I think it could work if you went with more of an extended feature length version of his backstory from Killing Joke, maybe include the OG Red Hood, maybe not, I really enjoyed the movie as it was though. Cheers!
For me the true horror of the film was realising after walking out of the theater that I sincerely emphasize with joker who is psychopath and in any other film would be proved to be wrong. But here there is a feeling that he has no choice bu go crazy. And he struggles all the time to be normal till he decides that his illness it is his strength. But Sonya could have dragged him out of it even if she was the last straw. Or at least audience would've seen the healthy attitude towards the troubles and it would have spoiled everything for me.
I think Arthur sees killing as his only option because for most people who have mental illness there is only one option, and they can only see things in a certain way. Joker invites us to see different perspectives on the events of the movie without it telling us what perspectives are those, and this is because the story is told through Arthur´s point of view.
1:05 this is the reason why I was so confused why the movie was getting so much praise, on my first watching I was disappointed, everyone was talking about how great the movie was and how it tackled difficult subjects like corruption and capitalism (sorta? I don’t remember too well). So when I went to watch it I expected it to be subtle, have the same subtlety as something like a Scorsese film (which looking back on was WAY to high of expectations from the same company that made justice league). Although my expectations were astronomically high, I think the film lacked any subtlety at all. The plot twist was obvious, and they really hammered in the idea that “we live in a society”. Also, the best shots from the film were in the trailer, anything that wasn’t in there was pretty uninspired.
Two things. I see that stubble. Bearded Nando? And two I love your channel and id love to see you talk about a movie that dosent need a change..... Arrival(hint hint)
First. Thank you. Second. I have thought about that. I really want to make a video on my favorite comic book movie of all time, especially because I very rarely hear it talked about and I think it's excellent.
I understand your points but I think that joker was not supposed to be opposed because this could potentially be all in his head because of how easy it is. Sophie also has to be a hallucination because that proves that he isn’t mentally stable and we don’t know what else isn’t real. The ambiguity of this movie is one of the best parts about it, and taking from the suspicion would hurt that aspect of the movie
Yah it’s tru. They weren’t boyfriend and girlfriend, just friends. However, when Arthur walked into her apartment unannounced he saw her with another man and she was really upset at him and confronted him later and had a similar blow out scene to the one that Nando suggested
Everything is shown from Arthurs twisted perspective. Of course all seems to be overly cruel, when a mentally ill person only sees the worst things in his life.
@@jtcob8486 Why? I want him to express his views, just not under the guise of categorizing ideological disagreements as flaws of the kind he usually fixes.
@@FabianEllis The point of the movie is to highlight various ways in which the status quo is rigged against the working class, Nando wants the movie to say, "Don't blame the broken status quo for your problems, just pull yourself up by your bootstrings instead.".
I’d like to add a significant change to the ending. Rather than shooting Murray, Joker holds him at gun point, and while he’s still on camera, provokes the riot knowing the cops will be preoccupied with the hostage situation. “Gee Murray, sounds like people are getting hurt out on those streets. So what’re the cops doing here?” And as a minor note, there is no possible way to depict the death of the Waynes that hasn’t been done before. If it must be referenced, show the aftermath, not the act itself. A quick glance at a kid crying over two bodies is all anyone would’ve needed to get the point.
This video is brought to you by CuriosityStream. Sign up and get a free trial of CuriosityStream AND Nebula here: curiositystream.com/nando
"... who also happens to be one of two female main characters and the single main character of colour."
Oh, I see. You are one of those people or becoming one of them. Well before I leave forever let me give you a warning: Social justice rotes the brain and is neurotoxic for stories. Soon you won´t be able to think critically anymore because you will see everything through a lense: A show about the Norman conquests will seem terrible to you because there are no black characters in it and a bad film will seem great because it checks enough boxes to be considered diverse.
I have seen it enough happen enough times to know where that leads to, so this is goodbye.
Exactly, and this is why I didn't think this movie was as great as everyone else.
Something you may be missing is a lot of this movie may be In Arthers head and he's telling the story to a therapist it isn't one for one his actual origin
Joker needed his signature "Damaged" tatoo, would've added alot more character.
It would have made it clear that he was indeed damaged.
@@NandovMovies yeah exactly there was no indication that he was damaged
How do you guys even know if he truly was damaged? It didn’t say it on his forehead
Don't forget that he has to say his signature catchphrase, "Hunka hunka!". Very disappointed they left that out of the movie.
@@nyrotike8153 took me right out of the movie
I think Justin Hammer was missing in this movie, with him in the movie would've been 11/10
Oh my gosh. That is what we really deserve.
Literally just went from watching IM2 on Vudu to this video and saw this comment. GET OUT OF MY HEAD.
Nando v Movies well I think Zemo, leader, abomination and Hela should have been in Endgame
Cricket Ben - I watched this video while listening to “pick up the pieces” by Average white band so this comment hits hard.
Tymetrain I thought she can’t die
“I used to think that my life is tragedy. But I realize, it’s a comedy.”
Nando: No
I used to think my life was a cringe compilation. But now I realize it's a try not to laugh compilation
I just kind of interpreted these kind of one dimensional “awful people” as being that way because Arthur is the one telling the story. In his view they are all awful and he was right to be upset. At the end you’re not even sure whether any of the story even happened or if Arthur just imagined it all, or maybe some of it was true and he was just exaggerating certain parts. I agree that a foil character would have been really cool though.
That doesn't make it more of an engaging story though.
@@DrewLSsix Maybe not, but it would help the self-pity angle.
i think the psychiatrist at the end should have been harley wuinn, so the whole movie is about arthur telling her his side of the story and thats how he got her to be sympathetic to him. (just end it with revealing her name badge or something).
@@khajiit92 Yeah, but... So Harley Queen would be 20 years older than Batman?
My take on the movie after seeing it was that it stands on the shoulders of the more nuanced conversation of The Dark Knight, and only shallowly references issues of mental health. That said, I have seen the Dark Knight and spend most of my leisure studying mental health; so the movie was quite enjoyable in that I could fill it in with my own thoughts on the topic and imagine Arthur’s interior. This movie is inherently limited, but I personally enjoyed it.
I can see what you're saying about sophie, but I did think it was a little clever, that, like you said, she was weirdly chill about being stalked, and the audience just accepted that bc rom coms have kind of trained movie audiences to accept that's how relationships with the protagonist work, right? and then arthur meets her in the real world and she's creeped out. and we realise it was an idealised relationship, a literal dream relationship all along. and that's why she was so accepting. I thought that was clever.
Yes i think others characters like the dwarf and the little black boy could have more screentime so they would be estabilish as the light in the middle of the darkness of Gotham which Arthur would sucumbe
After that reveal I was hoping that other things about Arthur's interactions with people would start being revealed as fake or unreliable. My main problem with the film is that so many of the people Arthur interacts with don't act like people.
That could be fine if we're seeing things through Arthur's perspective and that gets slowly stripped away to show that he's been manipulating us with his story. Instead there's just the ending which doesn't achieve the same thing.
I thought it was a bit too obvious she was a hallucination. I was honestly surprised I was the only person to realize it(her lauding the killer of the Wall Street guys as a hero was what made me whisper to my friend 'Yup, this is a Fight Club moment.")
Arthur was too weird for anyone to date. I feel like Nando is pushing too hard against the idea "incels don't exist, if you can't get a date you're just toxic!"
Let’s be honest, it should have been a dark kite man origin story. #releasetheglidercut
I second this notion #releasetheglidercut
@@CidPerfect I third this notion #releasetheglidercut
I heard the score was done by Jeremy Renner. #releasetheglidercut
#HellYeah
I know ur joking, but Kite Man's "War of Jokes and Riddles" origin would honestly make for a pretty interesting movie
"Cartoonishly" bad things happen to people everyday. It does trigger me when people think a domino effect of bad things is unrealistic. The real world can be and IS far crueler than arthur flecks life.
Lilbluepenguin10 Nando should visit the Bronx
He said “cartoonishly “ like this isn’t a comic film
Its cartoonish since its taken to such a degree that the scenrio seems impossible to happen. People fan be bit it dosent usually happen like that. The biggest example of this is the kids. Why woukd kids take his poster tahn right after beat him up? Uf you chock it up to its just that they are bad then it feels more forced suffering for the sake of shoving his life is terrible narratuve in the audience's face. Thats my two cents
Lilbluepenguin10 you are wrong
It happens
Not like this tho
@@ussishkingang7194 I've seen infinitely worse things happen to people for no reason whatsoever. So you're right.
I actually disagree with you on this one, Nando.
The whole point of Joker was to explore Arthur's tortured diseased psyche. It wasn't about anyone challenging his beliefs, it was about showcasing his descent into madness.
Even if she DID prove to be imagines by Arthur, her role in the movie is still important. Notice how, in the elevator scene, Sophie made the "gun to the head" gesture to Arthur. From then on, the Fake-Sophie shows up whenever Arthur had been at his lowest point, or alone (i.e. after he was fired, when his mother was in the hospital, etc.). So, with the revelation that Sophie was all in Arthur's head the whole time, that means that her purpose of the movie is to be a symbol for a part of Arthur's psyche. So, since she made that "gun to the head" gesture, then that means that Sophie is representative of Arthur's suicidal thoughts.
Arthur didn't start out angry. He's depressed. Everyone around him hates him, stigmatizes him, thinks he has no worth, etc. He felt powerless to the bullying society around him. So, when he murdered those people, he finally found a sense of power and control. However, that still doesn't change that it was wrong. Notice how distressed he was afterwards. That was only the beginning of his descent.
As the movie goes on, Arthur's life continues to fall apart, which only contributes to his depression, which leads to suicidal thoughts, "physically" represented by Sophie. It's like Arthur's "flirting with suicide." However, after he goes to Arkham and finds out the truth, we then when we get the scene where Sophie was revealed to be all in Arthur's head. Arthur is no longer depressed. He is ANGRY. So now, Arthur isn't imagining Sophie anymore. However, because of how he's been treated, he doesn't know what else to do with his anger, but to lash out, and that's when the Joker is born.
Having Sophie be a fully realized character in the movie takes away from the film's true focus, which is Arthur's psyche.
I was going to comment this but you beat me to it. I can't agree more. You have to remember that this is suppose to be a origin. The foil is Batman who comes later. This isn't a typical story because it happens before the typical story.
Thank you. I usually agree with Nando but not in this case.
I think Nando would rather this movie have 0 ambiguity at all and instead just portray his preferred social/political message blatantly
@@mrdyer1006 That's a bit much...
Ryan Perez nando literally says that they had a chance to say something and he’s upset about how they went about it: leaving it ambiguous
Joker was missing dark/Emo Toby.
Not nearly enough cookies with nuts. Or finger guns.
Yes. Just yes.
All films are
@@englishteadrinker even spider man 3? - Yes, kiddo, even spider man 3.
Nando v Movies or hitting women
I think the point was that the film was about his descent into madness, so most of what we see is how he sees the world. Obviously, the world isn't that bad, but to people suffering from depression and anxiety, etc, they do actually kinda see the world like it is cartoonish evil.
I feel like this would have been more likely the point if they DIDN'T show flashbacks of Sophie being "real" because then we wouldn't have known what was real and what wasn't. We could have considered him an unreliable narrator. But by showing us that his interactions with Sophie weren't real, it implies that that's the only part that was false and everything else was real.
"We should explore his beliefs"
Joker: "I don't believe in anything"
'chaos'
So you believe in nothing
@@petrenicolae3282 that’s kind of a dumb retort
@@rdeal8912 but it's not wrong,îs it?
@@petrenicolae3282 it doesn’t really make sense for the character of Joke tbh. sure he may disregard social and moral norms, but that doesn’t mean just “doesn’t believe in anything” a lot of his incarnations are usually concerned with the likes of causality, destiny, and fate as he relates to Batman
Sofie being a hallucination is great and shouldn't be changed, (In my opinion). I would have hated this "updated" plotline if I saw it in cinema.
It would’ve changed the entire movie in a dark comedy romance it’s such a dumb take
@@thecelestial4021 fact
No, I have to disagree with this one. The whole point of Arthur's character is his profound and steadily increasing isolation. Having him in a normal relationship undermines that to the detriment of the film.
Sorry, I haven't actually seen the movie but wouldn't the steadily increasing isolation be more effective if he had more people to isolate himself from? As described in this video he does eventually isolate himself from her too. If he's isolated from the beginning it would lose some punch because it's just the same, nothing is actually increasing or decreasing. Idk, I'm sure I'm missing lots because I haven't seen it but does adding another character he loses/gets isolated from really undermine the point? (genuinly curious)
@@katherinesanderson8990 Except having her never exist in the first place is the most effective way to show his isolation. Not only does it show that he's so desperate for human connection that he makes one up, but it also shows that the real version of the person he imagined to be his girlfriend is actually terrified by him.
@@trevordavis6830 Fair enough
The film is so superficial. It needs something like this.
Alan Lewis How is the film superficial? And how does the film being more generic and cliche make it better?
I can't buy Arthur fleck becoming the joker with such a relationship in the movie. In fact, the relationship was taking me out of the movie UNTIL it was revealed as fake, as it didn't seem like a guy like that would have a woman
What about Harley Quinn?
@@ShadeSlayer1911 this is after becoming Joker and he is not really interested in her, it's other way around.
@@ShadeSlayer1911
That's when he's Joker. While both Arthur and Joker are the same person, they're both very different. Arthur was a depressed, shy & mentally ill loner. Joker is an energetic, charismatic and out-going maniac. Harley always liked that stuff about Joker, even before joining him.
I agree. I was really taken by surprise when he, in full clown make-up, just walks into her apartment and starts making out with her. It felt really, really like we were missing some scenes--but it made sense later when it's revealed it's his fantasy, and it never happened.
Notice, how even through his fantasy, because he's making her up--she doesn't really have much to say or personality to show--which makes sense: It seems he's never had close relationships to women outside of his mother, so he doesn't *understand* women as human beings, but as *others* who care-take for him like his mother has done.
@@jamjox9922 This also ties in perfectly with the Harley Quinn plotline in the future
well challenging him so heavily and with such an iron clad argument leaves very little room for him to actually still do the wrong thing without completely destroying the feelings the film has worked so hard to cultivate. you have to just continually beat him into the ground at every turn and you cant give him a way out, thats the point, he has to be so hopelessly lost that he cant be found. these arguments aren't allowed in the film, they would ruin the character work. the point is that its where the character goes wrong, is forced into the worst circumstances, not where he gets the best circumstances but decides differently.
I think making Arthur have an actual relationship with Zazie Beetz's character changes the film drastically. It was that 'dumb' reveal where the film established Arthur as an unreliable narrator, and that ambiguity has always been essential to the Joker's character. Nando's version is also a lot more conventional, especially for a film that is already receiving enough criticism for being too close to Taxi Driver & King of Comedy.
Except King of Comedy managed this concept much better with Rupert shown at times to hold some truth to what he says but other times, we slowly begin to wonder which parts are lies, while still giving him a relationship where the person calls him out for his actions.
Even Falling Down does this concept well, where William Foster can be unreliable with the things he says or does, but still has people who aren't just awful, that call him out for how insane he's going.
_”When you bring me out, can you introduce me as Nando v Movies.”_
Identity theft is not a joke, BSJ IN YO HOUSE!!!
I'm not sure I agree with your takeaway from this film, especially about its message. Joker is not trying to convince you that Arthur is right. He's wrong. He's clearly wrong, and moreover he doesn't even really believe it himself. The Joker is not a revolutionary, he's not a political activist, he's a nihilist, and that's what makes the character so great. He's not willing to debate, because by the end of the film he's lost all sense of right and wrong. You may agree that the rich get what they deserve here, but if you do Arthur isn't your character, your character is the guy in the clown mask holding up a sign. I don't think the film is trying to make a particular point about austerity or mental health or wealth inequality or any of these other points, because the Joker isn't. It's couched in that context, but that's not the point of the film. Arthur doesn't understand these things, and so the film doesn't attempt to either. Frankly I think if the film did try to preach to us about messages it would be the worse for it.
But hey, that's just my opinion.
Patrick Ellis - I for one appreciated how the movie stood back and let the audience just be alone with Arthur. Nando’s version of the movie sounds way more generic; Joker would approve of how his movie has next to no plot.
Right I feel like he’s going way too deep. It’s a story about a guy and his slow descent into madness
@@mrdyer1006 I'm not sure if he's going to deep so much as misunderstanding the depth. Yes, the film does cover some serious topics, but the film also deliberately doesn't go into them, and I for one think that was a correct and deliberate decision.
Patrick Ellis I agree and the evidence for this is right there. Arthur also literally says “no I don’t believe in any of that stuff ...... I don’t believe in anything”
@@mrdyer1006 Exactly, and true nihilism is one of the most distinctive aspects of the Joker's character.
If I could make a small change to this movie, I’d make his coat more purple.
I kind of get what you mean. It looked a little too red in my opinion, though no they were going for something more reminiscent of Caesar Romero’s Joker (even though he did not wear a red suit).
Gavin Gwinn Red looked better than purple
Gavin it's me Diego, you probably didn't recognize me because of my red arm
DoubleD Studios Diaz? Ay! What’s up man.
Just here checking my boy Nando's videos. I should probably hit the bed tho
I loved this movie, because of the anxious tone throughout the whole movie. The movie felt depressing and I felt the struggle the whole way through the movie. What do I know, but that’s what I liked this movie.
Well, looks like another person who completely missed the point of the movie itself. You're not supposed to be presented with a reason for why Arthur is wrong, you're supposed to literally judge his actions for what they're worth so as to create your own moral center. The movie itself is an anti-Rorschach Test in a lot of ways, it's an attempt to get the audience to see what the film is presenting instead of having them see whatever else they see. Meaning that there is a clear message in the film and the series of events makes it very clear what we're supposed to do morally, with Arthur's character. People who say, "Joker should have been challenged" or "I don't think the movie says x, y, and zed... it's saying a, b, sid..." are either intentionally or unintentionally missing the point.
As for Joker being in the wrong, therefore the movie should say as such, are people who don't want a character study, they want the movie to preach a message at them so they don't feel uncomfortable empathizing with, what is in essence, a sociopathic murderer. Of course people like Nando here don't get that you're supposed to empathize with the situations Arthur is put in but at the same time you're capable of judging his actions as being bad ones. The reason I say this is because Nando and others, deliberately leave out important details to the movie that would otherwise ruin their entire interpretation of the film or their "rewrites."
This was literelly the point of the movie, its a character study and adding another character aka hero or batman it will mess the whole point of the movie, its about this character and onpy this characters mindset and devolopment
Nando, did we watch the same movie?
Generic response with no substance
@@chka1043 the video in a nutshell...
I was wondering the same thing. He must not understand the point of joker being an unreliable narrator or multiple choice history he famously said. The movie is completely from his point of view. Of course he isn't going to be detailed about others. Even the gun part when it's given to him isnt really realiable
Yeah, so disappointed. Nando usually has decent takes
Arthur's counselor should have been that character. She should have been a compassionate character who actually cares and is trying in her own way to make things better.
Agreed, i think even if they kept Zazie as a delusion, humanizing the social worker and having her try to help Arthur and have him push her away would've made the narrative much more compelling and actually given Arthur some agency
This. During the whole first half of the movie (there was a break in my cinema) I was feeling that something was not right. I think it's the social worker. She doesn't contribute anything vital to the plot. She should be the one to challenge his views etc.
@@mon_nobi While I agree that I wish there was a bit more of her near the end, I do like that that she's seemingly not that interested in Arthur's problems. Her last conversation with Arthur does humanize her a bit when she talks about how the system doesn't care about either of them. It gives me the sense that she isn't just some cold hearted person with no empathy but rather that she's also depressed and has been beaten down by the system kinda like Arthur. I think adding more lines of dialogue or scenes that show/imply that the reason she doesn't care about Arthur's problems is because she gets paid terribly, has a depressing life, or has to deal with tons of people like Arthur is the way to improve her character.
Also, I think your missing the point of Arthur's arc if you think he needs more agency in the first act. The whole point of Arthur's character arc in this film is how he feels like he has no agency in his life until he finally dawns the Joker persona and dances his way down the stairway of madness. He's only really suppose to be a proactive character when he becomes the Joker, not when he's Arthur Fleck.
@@mon_nobi I find your comments interesting because she did try to help him.
This video just says "no she didn't" which is a blatant lie so it hints to folks like me that you guys never watched the movie, you watched this inaccurate video.
While ironically while the change of keeping a character isn't a big change, how Nando suggest keeping the character dramatically changes the movie. Which I'm fine with, just saying it's a different movie with this change.
Facts
Thats kind of the point
I personally don’t feel that this change is making the movie substantially different. It does add another layer to the movie, makes some complexity to Arthur’s character and makes him - as Nandi said - checked and challenged. Yet, we don’t need Arthur to be checked or questioned. This movie was a story from Arthur’s point of view. It remains a story from Arthur’s point of view even with all the changes Nando suggested.
@ 👏👏👏👏
@King Peppy ooohhh OK I understand
Hey, Nando. I have a question: Could you possibly do rewrite videos of all the Transformers Live-Action movies?
I've thought about it a lot but haven't come up with good ideas yet. I'm working on it thought.
Nando v Movies I’ve been brainstorming ideas myself. One of those ideas involves altering the continuity of the films to incorporate the events of Bumblebee into the overall story and ignoring the events of The Last Knight entirely.
@@NandovMovies Maybe cross it over with the Fast and Furious serine? Fast-Formers.
TF2Fan101 and I asked him about the spider Verse
023 Studios What’s the fun of ignoring the movies in the franchise with the most potential?
I love how the same pose is used when Arthur looks at his reflection in the bathroom as later in the movie when he is looking on his followers, his new reflection or sense of identity
If only there was some kind of “Dark Knight” character to oppose his views...
@LeadFaunyeah i just think they didn't have enough screentime( i am not talking about Bruce)
Me: Really Nando you posted a video before finishing your Defenders rewrite? What’s wrong with you
Also me: ooh another Nando v Movies video
Also Arthur’s co-worker lying about giving Arthur the gun is not cartoonish mean it’s realistic he doesn’t want to get in trouble but still I get your point
The next Defenders Rewrite video is coming tomorrow. But I needed to get this off my chest.
@@NandovMovies I feel so happy hearing this. Thank you!
@@NandovMovies no rush dude just happy for new content
For the co-worker giving him the gun, how evil depends on how you see what motivated him into giving the gun, did he was sincere when he gave the gun, or was he lying a trap to him
@Greg Elchert It's a possible interpretation, one i agree on, just the movie leave it pretty open and can be seen as him framing Arthur from the start
Its like... the foil to the Joker... The one that truly calls him out on his horrible actions.... Isnt in the movie, well not in an old enough atleast.
This video makes me think you didn't watch the movie.
Honestly the idea of using Sophie in this way seems tropey and lazy...I agree he needed someone to contradict him. But the idea of a women being with Arthur and almost being able to "save" him and clearly working way harder than him, a literal murderer with an untreated neurological problem seems toxic and like a bad idea to me. Love your videos but I'm not sold on this one
As he points out, a black single mother is an extremely marginalised person. Using her as the mouthpiece for "Don't fight back against an unfair system! Maybe just work harder!" is pretty gross imo.
It seems like the girl changing the bad guy trope, but the guy is mentally ill instead.
@@garblechunk But he doesn't fight, he lashes out. He doesn't fight for anything, he just takes his hurt out on the world. That's the point a marginalized person can bring across. You can build, you can be better. Not by giving up, but by not using pain as an excuse to do whatever you want.
"Clearly working way harder than him". On what exactly?
ToXiC
Never forget the one person who was actually nice to Arthur. David the dwarf.
Congratulations, your take has been immortalized in EFAP 61 from 3:37:19 onwards
Not this time, Nando, sorry.
9:32 Step one of the D E.N.N.I.S System. D - Demonstrate value.
S - Separate Entirely (Because She Was Never There)
Realistically joker is a crazy person who’s off his meds, I really don’t think he could hold a conversation with her let alone go on a date with her
Also the missing character should be Batman, but in like a sequel or sum
BUT THAT WAS THE POINT OF THE MOVIE
You said on tweeter that any changes on this movie will result in this comment from fans.There you go,I said it without even watching the video
WE DID IT GUYS! (NASA engineers stand up and cheer)
Soooooo you should have a chat with EFAP might be really interesting to see.
As much as I admire your re imagining of the movie, I would like to share my own interpretation: the movie has no direct message. Rather, it presents to us the question- what makes a monster? Is it Lies? Loneliness? Suffering?
The movie is not trying to argue that Arthur was right. He is clearly wrong. But it is just trying to bring home the fact that his transformation into a nihilist could happen to anyone. And the fragility of the world is all the more exposed for it.
My point is, the Sophie reveal showed us how truly estranged he is from the world around him, and that's what made his descent into madness all the more believable... And bone-chillingly relatable.
Hard disagree on this one chief
Why
okay this is the first video I've ever disagreed with you on.
My brain is splitting at how dumb he sounds
Here's my change: Arthur was imagining the relationship but the actual confrontation between him and Sophie is real (the scene where he broke in her apartment)
Mr.Anonymous CLXXXVII is that not real?
@@epicmassacre64 is any of the movie real
@@epicmassacre64 when he broke in, yes it was
That is no change, though: It already is part of the movie.
@@elfsieben1450 no, Sophie didn't call out his bs in the original movie
Also small connection that I kinda like with this movie change that idk if you meant to do. Arthur hung onto the past and became the joker. Bruce looked to the future and became the future
"An interesting movie would feature a more complex society." That I can somewhat agree with. I love this movie, I think it's brilliant, but that is a valid point.
The idea that she SENDS in the video is awesome. I remember watching the film and questioning if the TV show people actually got the footage. It seemed so...weird. Love the idea of an important character taking that step.
"The protagonist is an anti-hero" - Well there's your first problem. Arthur is not a hero.
I loved your change. However, I kinda liked that Sophie was imaginary. It showed that Arthur was always truly alone.
If someone liked him that much his turn wouldn't be believable
I really do like this edition to the movie. I wish the movie added more questioning of Arthur’s morals. Keep up the content!
While I do agree with your assessment in some ways, I do have to point out that the one concern I have with your proposed version is of Arthur is sort of reliant on being a higher functioning person. I actually left the theater with similar thoughts to this video, but my partner pointed out to me that as someone who heavily suffers from depression and a few other mental illnesses, she found it both realistic and refreshing (from the standpoint of raising awareness) that they *DID* make everyone around Arthur seem one sidedly awful. She explained to me that she often only sees the bad things and moments in her life, and that she has to often struggles to remind herself that things are not always as bad as they first appear to her. If the story wasn't being told *from* Arthur's perspective it might be different, but one of the points of the movie seemed to be precisely that...Arthur WAS a victim of an uncaring society that refuses to acknowledge mental illness. Murray's critique of him, while valid of someone being lost in self pity, still missed this point.
A potential option that could've included Sofie and him actually trying to date but flashing back to their dates going radically different than how he first imagined them might've worked, but quite a number of people who suffer from mental illnesses often struggle to even hold a normal conversation, something the movie shows quite well, much less relationships. Doubly so if they are unmedicated.
Personally? I'd have rather his coworker that he spare have been the one to critique him than her.
This is an excellent analysis. It's true that many people with mental illnesses (especially depression) automatically see things through a negative lens. Especially since this is Arthur's perspective, everyone is very mean and cruel. I also like your idea of the dates going differently than how he sees it. That would've been even better to communicate the fact that Arthur's perspective is unreliable.
Amazing as always! Even though I liked the movie in general and Phoenix was phenomenal, I did feel something was missing. Couldn't really put my finger on it. So, thank you so much for explaining that inconsistency so clearly! Really love your channel and your work!
Yea, this movie isn’t about anything you’re talking about.
Totally agree with the review. You can't have that kind of justification of violence, and not really comment on it. Keep it up Nando
I see where you’re coming from and you form your point really well and with great conviction. However, giving Arthur a way out is not the point of the movie. There are plenty of films that explore people who have opportunities to do right and choose wrong this movie is depicting a man who society has abandoned and left with no other way out.
I think your criticism is an indication that the film succeeded in telling the story of the Joker. Also Sophie dating him being a figment of his imagination was a great twist. It subverted the Hollywood expectation that it’s okay to stalk a girl and start a relationship that way. I never found it realistic that a man like Arthur Fleck would attract a woman like Sophie and instead of being a traditional film joker acknowledges that reality and I appreciate it for that.
WHY ARE YOU SOO FREAKIN SMARTTT, this change is GENIUSSS
I like the "real girlfriend" idea! She would make a great foil for Arthur. I understood the film to be written deliberately vague, to show Arthur as an unreliable narrator with a mysterious past, as Joker is depicted in canon. However, this idea left a lot of missing scenes and an unclear movie. For example, Arthur's birth parents, adoption and child abuse are never shown in flashbacks. His mother Penny is never shown working for, sleeping with nor stalking Thomas Wayne in a past era. That would probably look like Fatal Attraction. Her records show no arrests for stalking or restraining orders from Wayne, either. Neither Penny nor Arthur are shown being involuntarily committed to Arkham Psychiatric Hospital. Their symptoms and diagnoses are not shown. A depressed person would be in bed all day and miss school and work. There would be suicide attempts, resulting in hospitalizations at Arkham. A schizophrenic person would hallucinate, like the bird transformation and melting paintings in Black Swan. A stalker would make lots of phone calls, follow their survivor around, take pictures, window peep and have a Wall of Crazy and arrests for trespassing and harassment. Someone with antisocial personality disorder would have a police record for delinquency, animal cruelty and arson, since childhood. Nor are they shown watching Murray Franklin's show during Arthur's childhood, when they are lifelong fans. Rather than the unexplained theft of Arthur's sign, street chase and alley beating by delinquents, I would instead have them mug him at a bus stop or subway station, take his watch and wallet and hospitalize him with fractures and a concussion, making him miss work, resulting in his boss either docking him for absenteeism or reluctantly paying worker's comp. After killing the Wayne Trio on the subway, I would have Arthur also shoot his boss for firing him and most of his colleagues, since one lied about arming him and the rest complained about his not-shown creepy behavior After Arthur's rescue from police by rioters, I would have him make a speech similar to his on-air rant on Murray Franklin, perhaps a nihilistic, misanthropic, eat-the-rich one with "dead baby" jokes and an uncontrollable Evil Laugh, to show his solidarity and newfound leadership. As an aspiring comedian, Arthur must have "killed" or gotten laughs occasionally, to justify his ambition and idealism. The 1981 setting should have shown more '80s fashions and music, such as Miami Vice and hip-hop clothes, mullets and Jeri curls, Michael Jackson, Madonna, Prince and Wham, to establish the period. The TV news should have more realistically mentioned drug dealers, gangs and serial killers, rather than off-camera "super rats" and a garbage strike. That's way more scary and better shows Gotham's decadence. Finally, I would show Arthur playing pranks and inventing his iconic Joker Venom (proven plausible on Because Science), high-voltage hand buzzer and other Deadly Pranks, fighting past Thomas Wayne's more realistic Michael Jackson security, killing him for his rejection and escaping police with them.
Man 4 minutes in and you're well off the mark on everything, excited to see where this goes
Alternative additional or changed character: If you want to keep the relationship with his neighbor a hallucination you can change a different character that adds a moral opposite to Arthur. Make one of the cops investigating the subway murders...Jim Gordon
De Niro's character in King of Comedy is called Rupert Pupkin, not Rupert Pumpkin
This is perfect! You never fail to make movies better. You should be a screenwriter for real.
Disclaimer: After reading additional comments, I realize that Arthur's view of others is extremely negative because the story is being told solely from his perspective. While your analysis is great, it makes sense why no one is there to challenge Arthur's views because Arthur is an isolated person. People with mental illness usually view life in a negative lens and it is realistic to depict a narrator who sees everyone as evil. He can only fantasize of a perfect relationship without actually pursuing one.
Joker did raised the issue..which it did it's job...but if Joker had taken a actual side on these issues..then it would have been bad..the thing is,,it really leaves us audiences ambiguous and guessing the reason on what actually did made him snap..was it the mental issues,or was it the classism or was it's own anger...if Joker had taken a stand on a particular reason of his snap..then we wouldn't have a proper Ambiguous and mysterious Joker origin
A m he's not saying you need to side with her, but there should be a discussion beyond the one side put forth by the movie.
@@marvelsomething1952 but there is no one side. The movie doesnt take any sides. That is the point
Pedro Giorgi it presents the Joker's side. Whether you accept or reject it, that's what you see.
marvel something he says he doesn’t believe anything and isn’t political. It’s pretty obvious he just enjoys the attention and that he has people who will follow him.
U.S Crusader he obviously believes he's being treated unfairly by people in power, though. He even talks about that with Murray in the interview.
The problem is not making it feel that joker is a person. There was no human connection to hold on too. This would have been a game change.
Everyone with a poster of Fight Club in their Room: **Dislike**
JoKer Squad HUB - Fight Club is a bad movie held up by the angsty memories of peoples bad decisions made in the 90s
Travis Holland Ok........ 😂 you do realise my point was to make fun of those people yeah...
Hard copy. Glad you did too
100% agreed. i was thinking the same the thing for weeks.
Man seriously Nando this is by far the best channel about movies it’s a hate crime that u don’t have more subs😂
I kinda dislike the idea of joker actually getting a gf but idk
They'd have to change Arthur's character a bit to make him able to have an actual conversation let alone a relationship. During the movie I thought "why would anyone date this guy?" then the reveal..
What if the gf wasn’t a neighbor? What if, after social service funding is cut, students seeking real-life experience do pro-bono work instead of paid professionals? Arthur gets assigned by Gotham University to a determined, but marginal, psychology student. That student goes waaayy beyond the bounds set by the University for contact with “patients.” That student is Harleen Quinzel.
Now THAT would have been a far better, because more captivating, psychologically interesting, thematically promising and overall suitable choice than simply turning "mono-dimensional always agreeable to isolated Arthur's momentary emotional needs dream girl" from a psychologically motivated, placative yet clever symbol of lack and forloreness into a manifested mono-dimensional, mono-purpose, utterly stale "other"/what-if? plot device that would not even change anything about the movie's outcome - except making it more formulaic and watered down by adding a pseudo-conflict that ultimately didn't go anywhere.
He had one in Batman the Animated Series, Birds of Prey ('90s TV) and Suicide Squad.
Finally someone agrees with me that the Sophie twist was dumb! Love your videos Nando!
Thanks Mason!
If by the end of this movie, if he doesn't get dropped in a vat of chemicals running from Batman then that ain't The Joker
After listening to this Nonsense, I've concluded that you were NOT Paying attention to the film at all.
The movie, in my opinion, is supposed to show you the series of events that casue a complete disregard for human life and a hatred for authority. It's built to carry the audience through the mud and come back out of it with the joker, a terrifying killer. It doesn't matter how much sense Murray's speech makes, Arthur doesn't care, so it doesn't matter who delivers the speech. Arthur having a girlfriend by his side would make the movie wayy closer to the other two movies you talked about, and makes him normal enough to have a love interest, which he shouldn't be.
Hey Nando, I love your videos, and I know you mostly stick to movies, but it'd be fascinating to see your take on the Doom Patrol tv show and what could be changed or simply your ideas for season 2. Thank you for the consistently great content, and I look forward to watching this video.
That would be fun. I watched the first few episodes and enjoyed it. I've gotta catch up.
@@NandovMovies Hey, back from the video. Fantastic stuff, and I hope to catch the livestream. I think Doom Patrol would work great as a podcast video, and it addresses some of the shortcomings you mentioned in the Boys episode.
@@autumnhecatemoon ooooh that's a good one
@@NandovMovies either way, definitely finish the series if you have time, and if you can get your hands on either the Gerard Way or Grant Morrison series it's 100% worth owning and reading.
@@autumnhecatemoon I have read the series and I loved it.
There were 4 people in joker who weren't awful,sophie and her daughter,alfred and Bruce Wayne
The missing character was Zack Snyder and his Oscar worthy dialogue.
🤢🤢🤢
You're one of the few who remembers how bad Zack Snyder DC movies are. Everyone else seems to remember those movies more fondly now than they did at the time ever since Justice League wasn't all it could be and Snyder's unmade version sounded like it could've been better when we all know his execution of promising-sounding Snyder scripts is far removed from the potential of said Snyder scripts. But that's the nature of being in everyone's rearview mirror now: you're looked more fondly upon that way.
@@freakadelic7495 thanks
@Heavy Metal Collector 😂👍
King Peppy why did u say that name?!
Eh..this might be the one time I disagree with Nando
Yeah same. Idk about this one
Going, to be honest, I actually disagree with you here. I like the fact that the story is so black and white because it is told from a biased perspective. This is the joker's story so of course, it isn't going to be a bit abnormal. And doing the fake girlfriend reveal here set the precedent that we cannot believe what is real and what isn't which makes the ending of the movie a lot more interesting. As well considering how obvious it was that Taxi Driver and KOC were influences, I think the less that it copies from those movies the better. However, I still do think you raise an interesting point, always look forward to seeing your videos.
Awesome edit mate !
The movie wasn’t missing a character. This character was in the movie. You just have some odd need to give her a bigger part because she’s... what? Black and female?
And no it’s not me pointing out she was black and female as a issue, it’s NANDO who pointed it out as a issue... for some bizarre reason in a story that’s not about race or gender.
Nando, love your videos broseph, but I respectfully disagree with your changes to Joker. I think that a much better change to this movie would be to beat him down even a bit more, because Joker's whole shtick is that one bad day can turn anyone into him. I really appreciate the work you put into this, as well as I see where you are going with your changes, and I think it could work if you went with more of an extended feature length version of his backstory from Killing Joke, maybe include the OG Red Hood, maybe not, I really enjoyed the movie as it was though. Cheers!
For me the true horror of the film was realising after walking out of the theater that I sincerely emphasize with joker who is psychopath and in any other film would be proved to be wrong. But here there is a feeling that he has no choice bu go crazy. And he struggles all the time to be normal till he decides that his illness it is his strength. But Sonya could have dragged him out of it even if she was the last straw. Or at least audience would've seen the healthy attitude towards the troubles and it would have spoiled everything for me.
That’s the thing about villains and... real psychopaths, what they BELIEVE don’t have to make sense to you, it just has to make sense to them.
One small change😂😂😂 be rewrote the entire script to it so much that he changed the genre to a gritty romance tragedy
This man has a critique for EVERY movie
I think Arthur sees killing as his only option because for most people who have mental illness there is only one option, and they can only see things in a certain way. Joker invites us to see different perspectives on the events of the movie without it telling us what perspectives are those, and this is because the story is told through Arthur´s point of view.
"I [disagree] with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire
"Even if you don't usually watch to the end of the video, I'd appreciate if you did this time"
"So let's talk about Curiosity Stream!"
Dude, clean animation intro!!! Loved it!
1:05 this is the reason why I was so confused why the movie was getting so much praise, on my first watching I was disappointed, everyone was talking about how great the movie was and how it tackled difficult subjects like corruption and capitalism (sorta? I don’t remember too well). So when I went to watch it I expected it to be subtle, have the same subtlety as something like a Scorsese film (which looking back on was WAY to high of expectations from the same company that made justice league). Although my expectations were astronomically high, I think the film lacked any subtlety at all. The plot twist was obvious, and they really hammered in the idea that “we live in a society”. Also, the best shots from the film were in the trailer, anything that wasn’t in there was pretty uninspired.
Nando, I have been saying this to all my friends since the movie came out, from the criticisms to the fix. I think you might be in my head.....
Two things. I see that stubble. Bearded Nando? And two I love your channel and id love to see you talk about a movie that dosent need a change..... Arrival(hint hint)
First. Thank you. Second. I have thought about that. I really want to make a video on my favorite comic book movie of all time, especially because I very rarely hear it talked about and I think it's excellent.
I understand your points but I think that joker was not supposed to be opposed because this could potentially be all in his head because of how easy it is. Sophie also has to be a hallucination because that proves that he isn’t mentally stable and we don’t know what else isn’t real. The ambiguity of this movie is one of the best parts about it, and taking from the suspicion would hurt that aspect of the movie
We need to work on your definitions of "Small change" and "Better"
I saw another TH-cam video saying that she was originally his girlfriend in an earlier script
Oh that's interesting. I didn't hear anything about that but it makes perfect sense.
Yah it’s tru. They weren’t boyfriend and girlfriend, just friends. However, when Arthur walked into her apartment unannounced he saw her with another man and she was really upset at him and confronted him later and had a similar blow out scene to the one that Nando suggested
He doesn't simply want attention, he wants to be recognised, loved and adored.
Joker feels like a self-indulgent excuse to go berserk. All one-sided, all terrible, no real understanding of the questions they're asking...
Jose Figueroa Canales it’s not about sympathizing with the Joker, you’re supposed to know he’s bad.
Everything is shown from Arthurs twisted perspective. Of course all seems to be overly cruel, when a mentally ill person only sees the worst things in his life.
I like what the film did and Nando's take.
Excellent small change. Solid improvement to the movie.
DeNiro impression = 10/10
A more honest title would be "one small change to make Joker agree with my ideology".
I hope he doesn't shove in his beliefs and politics into his next videos.
@@jtcob8486 Why? I want him to express his views, just not under the guise of categorizing ideological disagreements as flaws of the kind he usually fixes.
?
@@FabianEllis The point of the movie is to highlight various ways in which the status quo is rigged against the working class, Nando wants the movie to say, "Don't blame the broken status quo for your problems, just pull yourself up by your bootstrings instead.".
I’d like to add a significant change to the ending. Rather than shooting Murray, Joker holds him at gun point, and while he’s still on camera, provokes the riot knowing the cops will be preoccupied with the hostage situation. “Gee Murray, sounds like people are getting hurt out on those streets. So what’re the cops doing here?”
And as a minor note, there is no possible way to depict the death of the Waynes that hasn’t been done before. If it must be referenced, show the aftermath, not the act itself. A quick glance at a kid crying over two bodies is all anyone would’ve needed to get the point.