If you enjoy these videos and want to communicate with me directly / be involved with future streams and behind the scenes filming come and join the discord : discord.gg/B9t7YCF
I think Ubisoft kinda designed them into a corner by making the core combat design be based around every attack being reactable. Back when the game came out, the only viable characters were the ones that could force 50/50 mixups from neutral, or in Conquerors case, an extremely simple reactable offense that was completely unpunishable on reaction OR prediction. Fighting games work because attacks are too fast to react to, with the few moves that are reactable being powerful tools to punish hesitation or check the opponent. I think ubisoft failed to realize that, but still took a lot of inspiration from fighting games besides that. The result is a game that is fun, fair and flashy to play at a casual level, but falls apart at higher levels, where the only winning move tends to be not to play.
If we account and understand complexity as a natural element of any complex system like games, we can create better games for players, with better learning curves and less mental overload. Great video as always!
Smash has a similar problem with dlc/newcomers being more complex than old ones with entire new mechanics. Min Min trades half of her moveset for twin punches that you can activate separately but simultaneously, and in the same or different directions, and Ryu, Bayonetta, and Terry all add directional inputs, making them closer to traditional fighter games. I think Min Min gets away with it because she lacks specials and a side smash to make up for it - the remaining specials are a generic recovery and a means of customising the actual complicated part, but the others have entire new moves on top of their standard ones. Ryu simply has upgraded versions of his normal moves, so thats pretty tame, but Terry especially has extra special moves based on both his inputs but also damage percent, the latter attacks also have an input sequence. Terry is a very difficult character to learn properly, and its only excuse is authenticity to his original appearance, which was also complicated. Inversely, older characters are incredibly simple compared to newer ones, and people often try to recreate their movesets with the similar complexity of new characters.
@@DesignDelve I think as you said with this game, consistent overall controls are key. Min Min doesn't have a neutral or side special, which are ways to add complexity to a character, but instead has the arms actually BE those "specials". All she really loses is a traditional neutral and side special, instead getting specials where its not the direction but the button that matters. The replacement attacks all line up with the moves they replaced. As much as I like being true to a characters origins, I think Terry would need to be toned down somewhat to make him more conventional for smash. His input moves - on top of his regular four specials - are crack shoot, buster wolf, and power geyser. Crack shoot is a side special, counterpart to his standard one, burning knuckle. But how most characters face the direction you move and attack in that direction, Terry always faces his opponent, so the crack shoot is when you special away from them, so its more of a means of acknowledging his limited(?) options and compensating. Buster wolf and power geyser are essentially enhanced side and neutral specials respectively when he reaches 100+ damage but with input sequences required to use them. I think if they toned the power of those moves down, they could both work like ryus upgraded attacks - his single hit hadoken becomes a multi hit, so power wave would be a small travelling wave (normal) or a big one in front of you (power geyser). It might even work if they kept the damage limit but removed the inputs, and at 100+ it just replaced the standard move with something thats better in __almost__ every way. TLDR, Terry has several unique mechanics overlapping each other that other characters don't have at all, if they simplified or just removed some of them, he would be closer to a traditional smash fighter, making him easier to learn, use, and counter.
You should definitely cover the other modes! Would love to see your take on the impact each one has on the combat. Would also enjoy you taking on other multiplayer games, either your opinions, or a breakdown of the design elements.
I've only played For Honor a few times, but one of the issues I had with this game is that I have a lot of trouble seeing the enemy direction pointer until it's too late so I'm pretty prone to getting rekt. It's probably more a me thing than a problem with the design but it still left a bad taste in my mouth. Still cool to see such a nice breakdown of everything and almost makes me want to give it another go. Almost. I do like that it gives a lot of the same feelings of playing a 2D fighter without the of the 20 minute cutscene where you end up dead from a single combo because you attacked/blocked/jumped half a frame too early.
Didn't expect a for honor video, which was a pleasant surprise. Might have to start playing the game again after this review. Great stuff as always! Also I'd love more for honor videos
@@DesignDelve "Not For Broadcast" is a game I've had on my wishlist for a while so I'd love a review on that. Or you can go with "5D chess with multiverse time travel" if you want a headache
this is certainly a different type of video indeed. I've honestly never played this game properly but I heard very mixed reviews about it. can't say I was crazy about it when it was first released.
I can honestly say it has aged really well but isn’t for everyone I understand :) I hope you enjoyed this episode Brenny, I know it was something a little different but back to usual programming next episode! What would you like to see more of on the channel?
Yes they are in my list of games to cover but I am taking a short break from Prince of Persia as I just covered 3 games in the series :) hope you understand. Any other games you’d like to see that I could add to my list?
@@DesignDelve I’ll definitely need to think about that but possibly kingdom hearts? It’s my all time favourite game series ever. As well as crash bandicoot, Spyro the dragon, ratchet and clank, jak and Daxter or sly cooper. Please take at least one of them into consideration.
Rachet and clank.. yes m8! And sly Cooper you’ve given me some great suggestions! Also kingdom hearts series is on my list but they are going to be VERY long videos 👀 a lot to talk about
I actually find the arrows distracting even though it's meant to be a crutch. They aren't really neccesary, you can tell where to block by looking at the animations, like in other fighting games. Even though it's in 3d, it's still the same concept as blocking in other fighting games, but none rely on an directional warning, at most they give special moves unique effects.
Maybe is overwhelming at the beginning but i think the diversity of mechanics is whats keep the game playable. People get used very quickly when a new character came out once they now the basics, nuxia problem is that no one uses her and so when you find one you get rekt lol
Hey bud, love the video and you earned yourself a new sub. I did notice you pronounce third person fird person, not that its a problem but my mate had the same issue and telling him to pronounce TH sounds with his tounge and his teeth and not his bottom lip and his teeth solved the problem for him, quite a common speach impediment for some English people. Hope that helps, if it even matters to you lol.
@@DesignDelve No problem, like I said, its no big deal and quite a common thing, just thought id offer the tip. Also I loved the sea of thieves video you just put out, fantastic stuff my guy. Nice to see someone passionate about sound in a game for once and recognise its importance
Have you heard of or played the game *Absolver?* It's a 3d fighting game that came out a little after *For Honor* and is quite honestly one of my favorite games out there, which is saying a lot as I almost NEVER play PvP games. Despite a lot of frankly _amazing_ mechanics and gameplay it never reached the success it needed to stay alive, and I'd like to know your thoughts on it if you are familiar with it.
So to answer your question I actually think for honor would be better as a Moba, this is because the game already has waves of respawning minions that you can farm to get yourself a 6 piece chicken nugget meal at maccas that lets you do super cool fuckin' ninja shit and they could call the game "For honor (but its a moba this time)" I'd like to see the game have a main story as well so you can play as the illustrious and lusty Johnny honor on his way to conquer the known world in search of hot ninja babes and maybe some steamy samurai hunks. on the topic of honor though did you know that the highest honor one can possible achieve is a perfect triector state of 3-2-2-4-3 in a game of quadrant dance basketball? honorestly (hahaha get it) it's quite a thing and to have watched Shaq O'Jackson dance-dribble the ball in his legendary moonwalking style across the court was a sight to behold! And I don't think you quite caught on to the true genius as to why the Ubisoft team game For Honor a UI, it's to show that you're playing a video game and like pressing buttons.
I have to disagree with at least some of the points in this video - while For Honour is a fighting game in 3D, it doesn't quite capture the same complexity and depth that classic 2D fighting games have. This has to do with the homogenised design of the characters, as well as the much shorter move list. The list of differences between, say, Centurion and Nobushi is probably much shorter than the list of differences between Ken and Ryu (at least in SF5). For Honor's systems are plenty complex, but the characters don't have the same feeling - its like a Street Fighter game with ONLY the Shoto characters (streetfighter.fandom.com/wiki/Shotokan, for reference). This isn't necessarily an awful thing - as you say, it makes it easier for the beginners. SF4 had 44 characters by the time it came to an end, and if all of those were 100% unique, no one would have the brainspace for all the info without 12 years of study. It does shorten the lifespan of the game, however, as all fights are very similar except for having to deal with/use their/your one gimmick. TL;DR - nerf Valkyrie Also, 3D fighters exist. Tekken and Soul Calibur. They're good, apparently. Not played either of them for many years. (This turned into more of an essay than I wanted it to...)
this is a good analysis of for honor but a terrible analysis of fighting games. looking at Dragon Ball Fighterz as indicative of the larger fighting game experience is a disservice to the analysis, but it's a cute example i guess
If you enjoy these videos and want to communicate with me directly / be involved with future streams and behind the scenes filming come and join the discord : discord.gg/B9t7YCF
I think Ubisoft kinda designed them into a corner by making the core combat design be based around every attack being reactable. Back when the game came out, the only viable characters were the ones that could force 50/50 mixups from neutral, or in Conquerors case, an extremely simple reactable offense that was completely unpunishable on reaction OR prediction. Fighting games work because attacks are too fast to react to, with the few moves that are reactable being powerful tools to punish hesitation or check the opponent. I think ubisoft failed to realize that, but still took a lot of inspiration from fighting games besides that. The result is a game that is fun, fair and flashy to play at a casual level, but falls apart at higher levels, where the only winning move tends to be not to play.
I completely agree. Especially with your comment about higher level play. Cheers for the comment boss 👌
If we account and understand complexity as a natural element of any complex system like games, we can create better games for players, with better learning curves and less mental overload. Great video as always!
Thank you boss :)
10/10: like dark souls with street fighter.
1000%. exactly my guy
Great Analysis as always. Thanks for the videos JM8!
Thank you for watching as always Simarjit 😊 so happy you are liking the videos
Smash has a similar problem with dlc/newcomers being more complex than old ones with entire new mechanics. Min Min trades half of her moveset for twin punches that you can activate separately but simultaneously, and in the same or different directions, and Ryu, Bayonetta, and Terry all add directional inputs, making them closer to traditional fighter games.
I think Min Min gets away with it because she lacks specials and a side smash to make up for it - the remaining specials are a generic recovery and a means of customising the actual complicated part, but the others have entire new moves on top of their standard ones.
Ryu simply has upgraded versions of his normal moves, so thats pretty tame, but Terry especially has extra special moves based on both his inputs but also damage percent, the latter attacks also have an input sequence. Terry is a very difficult character to learn properly, and its only excuse is authenticity to his original appearance, which was also complicated.
Inversely, older characters are incredibly simple compared to newer ones, and people often try to recreate their movesets with the similar complexity of new characters.
What do you believe would be a good way to counter this problem boss? And thank you for sharing your immense knowledge of Smashes design with us :)
@@DesignDelve I think as you said with this game, consistent overall controls are key. Min Min doesn't have a neutral or side special, which are ways to add complexity to a character, but instead has the arms actually BE those "specials". All she really loses is a traditional neutral and side special, instead getting specials where its not the direction but the button that matters. The replacement attacks all line up with the moves they replaced.
As much as I like being true to a characters origins, I think Terry would need to be toned down somewhat to make him more conventional for smash. His input moves - on top of his regular four specials - are crack shoot, buster wolf, and power geyser. Crack shoot is a side special, counterpart to his standard one, burning knuckle. But how most characters face the direction you move and attack in that direction, Terry always faces his opponent, so the crack shoot is when you special away from them, so its more of a means of acknowledging his limited(?) options and compensating.
Buster wolf and power geyser are essentially enhanced side and neutral specials respectively when he reaches 100+ damage but with input sequences required to use them. I think if they toned the power of those moves down, they could both work like ryus upgraded attacks - his single hit hadoken becomes a multi hit, so power wave would be a small travelling wave (normal) or a big one in front of you (power geyser). It might even work if they kept the damage limit but removed the inputs, and at 100+ it just replaced the standard move with something thats better in __almost__ every way.
TLDR, Terry has several unique mechanics overlapping each other that other characters don't have at all, if they simplified or just removed some of them, he would be closer to a traditional smash fighter, making him easier to learn, use, and counter.
You have some legit views on Smashes balance m8 I completely agree with you :)
You should definitely cover the other modes! Would love to see your take on the impact each one has on the combat. Would also enjoy you taking on other multiplayer games, either your opinions, or a breakdown of the design elements.
What other games would you like to see?
@@DesignDelve Maybe terraria, for something pretty far from anything else you've covered. Or a moba?
M8 terraria that would be a BIG video
I've only played For Honor a few times, but one of the issues I had with this game is that I have a lot of trouble seeing the enemy direction pointer until it's too late so I'm pretty prone to getting rekt. It's probably more a me thing than a problem with the design but it still left a bad taste in my mouth. Still cool to see such a nice breakdown of everything and almost makes me want to give it another go. Almost.
I do like that it gives a lot of the same feelings of playing a 2D fighter without the of the 20 minute cutscene where you end up dead from a single combo because you attacked/blocked/jumped half a frame too early.
Yea man it has such a steep learning curve it’s insane. But once you get past it it’s one of the best fighters I’ve ever played 👌
Didn't expect a for honor video, which was a pleasant surprise. Might have to start playing the game again after this review. Great stuff as always!
Also I'd love more for honor videos
Ayyy I’m glad you liked the episode boss :) why other games would you like to see in the future?
@@DesignDelve "Not For Broadcast" is a game I've had on my wishlist for a while so I'd love a review on that.
Or you can go with "5D chess with multiverse time travel" if you want a headache
Oooooo added to my list thank you boss
this is certainly a different type of video indeed. I've honestly never played this game properly but I heard very mixed reviews about it. can't say I was crazy about it when it was first released.
I can honestly say it has aged really well but isn’t for everyone I understand :) I hope you enjoyed this episode Brenny, I know it was something a little different but back to usual programming next episode! What would you like to see more of on the channel?
@@DesignDelve I’d love to see you cover the prince of Persia forgotten sands and the 2008 game. Do you have any plans to do that at all?
Yes they are in my list of games to cover but I am taking a short break from Prince of Persia as I just covered 3 games in the series :) hope you understand. Any other games you’d like to see that I could add to my list?
@@DesignDelve I’ll definitely need to think about that but possibly kingdom hearts? It’s my all time favourite game series ever. As well as crash bandicoot, Spyro the dragon, ratchet and clank, jak and Daxter or sly cooper. Please take at least one of them into consideration.
Rachet and clank.. yes m8! And sly Cooper you’ve given me some great suggestions! Also kingdom hearts series is on my list but they are going to be VERY long videos 👀 a lot to talk about
I actually find the arrows distracting even though it's meant to be a crutch. They aren't really neccesary, you can tell where to block by looking at the animations, like in other fighting games.
Even though it's in 3d, it's still the same concept as blocking in other fighting games, but none rely on an directional warning, at most they give special moves unique effects.
I can see where you’re coming from, out of curiosity how much For Honor have you played?
@@DesignDelve I haven't actually played, i'm interested in the concept but the final product doesn't look like my cup of tea.
I would play the game boss👌
Maybe is overwhelming at the beginning but i think the diversity of mechanics is whats keep the game playable. People get used very quickly when a new character came out once they now the basics, nuxia problem is that no one uses her and so when you find one you get rekt lol
I can agree with this boss :)
First, also Brawl when? 10/10 vids m8, you da best, noice
Thanks grillio
Hey bud, love the video and you earned yourself a new sub. I did notice you pronounce third person fird person, not that its a problem but my mate had the same issue and telling him to pronounce TH sounds with his tounge and his teeth and not his bottom lip and his teeth solved the problem for him, quite a common speach impediment for some English people. Hope that helps, if it even matters to you lol.
Glad you enjoyed the video boss :) and I’m not fussed about the pronunciation but thank you for the tips you legend 💕
@@DesignDelve No problem, like I said, its no big deal and quite a common thing, just thought id offer the tip. Also I loved the sea of thieves video you just put out, fantastic stuff my guy. Nice to see someone passionate about sound in a game for once and recognise its importance
you sound like my type of person m8.
Have you heard of or played the game *Absolver?* It's a 3d fighting game that came out a little after *For Honor* and is quite honestly one of my favorite games out there, which is saying a lot as I almost NEVER play PvP games. Despite a lot of frankly _amazing_ mechanics and gameplay it never reached the success it needed to stay alive, and I'd like to know your thoughts on it if you are familiar with it.
I haven’t played it but know of it. I’ll add it to my list and check it out 😁 thanks bud!
Hi jj
Hey bro!
Cool
Noice.
So to answer your question I actually think for honor would be better as a Moba, this is because the game already has waves of respawning minions that you can farm to get yourself a 6 piece chicken nugget meal at maccas that lets you do super cool fuckin' ninja shit and they could call the game "For honor (but its a moba this time)" I'd like to see the game have a main story as well so you can play as the illustrious and lusty Johnny honor on his way to conquer the known world in search of hot ninja babes and maybe some steamy samurai hunks. on the topic of honor though did you know that the highest honor one can possible achieve is a perfect triector state of 3-2-2-4-3 in a game of quadrant dance basketball? honorestly (hahaha get it) it's quite a thing and to have watched Shaq O'Jackson dance-dribble the ball in his legendary moonwalking style across the court was a sight to behold! And I don't think you quite caught on to the true genius as to why the Ubisoft team game For Honor a UI, it's to show that you're playing a video game and like pressing buttons.
This is the best one yet. You’ve outdone yourself.
I have to disagree with at least some of the points in this video - while For Honour is a fighting game in 3D, it doesn't quite capture the same complexity and depth that classic 2D fighting games have. This has to do with the homogenised design of the characters, as well as the much shorter move list. The list of differences between, say, Centurion and Nobushi is probably much shorter than the list of differences between Ken and Ryu (at least in SF5).
For Honor's systems are plenty complex, but the characters don't have the same feeling - its like a Street Fighter game with ONLY the Shoto characters (streetfighter.fandom.com/wiki/Shotokan, for reference). This isn't necessarily an awful thing - as you say, it makes it easier for the beginners. SF4 had 44 characters by the time it came to an end, and if all of those were 100% unique, no one would have the brainspace for all the info without 12 years of study. It does shorten the lifespan of the game, however, as all fights are very similar except for having to deal with/use their/your one gimmick.
TL;DR - nerf Valkyrie
Also, 3D fighters exist. Tekken and Soul Calibur. They're good, apparently. Not played either of them for many years.
(This turned into more of an essay than I wanted it to...)
I enjoyed reading this essay. Thank you Jimmy it was very insightful 👌 would you like to see me cover some other fighting games?
@@DesignDelve Short answer yes, long answerI just want an excuse to play more fightin gams
You do like fighting...
this is a good analysis of for honor but a terrible analysis of fighting games. looking at Dragon Ball Fighterz as indicative of the larger fighting game experience is a disservice to the analysis, but it's a cute example i guess