It’s so interesting to hear the differences in each of their approaches. I hear more knowledge in John but more wisdom in Jonathan. They compliment each other well.
This talk seems to have very little to do with the title of the video, but that's alright because it was exactly the sort of topic I needed to hear these words about.
Putting all of your trust in God is an amazing way of overcoming anxiety, also, I learned radical humility from Saint Theresa of Avila and his book The Way of Perfection. It felt like a blessing to me when I finally learned to be humble. In humility we make way for God to act in the world and our faith grows at the same time, as we contemplate his might.
Yesterday a 19-year-old that I love had his name legally changed. It's impossible for him to understand why I didn't want him to do that. Maybe we all sort of self-name when we are young and a bit rebellious. And we find ourselves when we humbly commit to something better than ourselves alone.
Great discussion. These discussions always remind me of what is really dying or what is really being killed. " Christendom has had a series of revolutions and in each one of them Christianity has died. Christianity has died many times and risen again; for it had a god who knew the way out of the grave. But the first extraordinary fact which marks this history is this: that Europe has been turned upside down over and over again; and that at the end of each of these revolutions the same religion has again been found on top. The Faith is always converting the age, not as an old religion but as a new religion." - G.K. Chesterton. You cant kill something that is beyond death. Mystical bodies dont really die do they? When Pagaeu says Christianity is dying it seems an odd statement to practicing Christians but he is reflecting on old meta-physics. The promised land and the wilderness are reality both globally and individually. For those of us who are finding it hard and demoralizing at times, keep moving forward if you can. Your not alone and there is mystical body that is always there to aim for. Some things appear to die ... but come back higher.
Man that way of talking about reality and its constituent patterns (archetypes) as transpersonal beings/forces/entities/agencies/personalities/spirits makes so much sense to me. In some sense we truly are the playings of the gods (lust/sexual desire, gluttony, rage, kindness) - but maybe we don't have to be, because it seems to me that we can participate in the cosmic dance/war of the spirits by choosing which ones we invite into our heart, which spirits we allow to possess us, to guide us, to follow, to celebrate, to worship. And in doing so, we co-shape & participate in the unfolding of reality itself, as part of the body of these transpersonal agencies. What also strikes a cord with me is the idea that we do not define our identity and core values ourselves, but that they are revealed to us (like the burning bush that shines forth out of nowhere to Moses) and we can choose whether we follow and pursue that which compels and interests us spontaneously, seemingly out of its own accord. It's like a calling, the voice of destiny beckoning us to move forward towards who we could and should be, if we actualized all of the potential that is hidden inside of us, wating to be manifested. Thanks for the talk, that was both thought-provoking and inspiring.
@@gregorywitcher5618 old mate's over here getting a hard-on at the thought of other people's suffering. Hard to afford him much at all, but I manage it.
For me, broadening the view of the horizon with the pattern of the revelation made me wake up and removed all my doubt about god‘s existence and that god reveals for us the reality which he made, with revelation and with his-story 😅 I‘m not even half way through and got only half of it, yet what little I understand very deeply actually, i find so exiting and it‘s so great being able to listen to you talk! Thank you!
Re-listening to this. ~26:00 Jonathan's eschatological vision brings together two Biblical poles in synthesis: "There's nothing new under the sun" (Ecclesiastes) and "Behold, I make all things new" (Revelation)
1:10:43-1:11:30 Jonathan touches John’s knee and then proceeds to celebrate him, even calling for the crowd to join. We are all “Christian-like” like John because we are all made in the Image and Likeness of God. Jonathan seems to be making a symbolic liturgical (pastoral, maybe better put?) celebration of Christ is John. “Don’t you think?”-JP
I love how Jon, and John's articulation styles combine when they talk. It often opens up into insight for me when I'm listening. Because they are different
42:31 Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars: She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table. She hath sent forth her maidens: she crieth upon the highest places of the city, Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him, Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine which I have mingled. Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.
It’s simply not true that Christianity breaks with tradition and claims to read the Jewish scriptures better than the Jewish people. This exhibits historical ignorance. All of the first Christians were Jews and the majority of early Christian thought was a natural development of Jewish thought that existed before the advent of Christ. Even modern Jewish scholars admit that Christianity is a legitimate branching off of Jewish thought that existed in the first century. Judaism has to be seen as a reaction to the appearance of Christianity, and is not at all the same religion that existed in the Old Testament. The case of Islam is analogous in the least (Mormonism makes a far superior case lol) because Islam does not claim to be a fulfillment of Christianity (not in praxis) but rather the replacement of Christianity (which is evidenced by the Quran being a completely new “revelation” and not the addition of a new covenant to the OT and NT - unlike the Bible which adds the New to the Old). Unlike Christianity which claims to be the fulfillment of the Old Testament and exists in narrative continuity with it, Islam does away with everything that comes before it and exists as an aberration and corruption of that which came before it. Islam denies the entire Semitic tradition, including the feasts and the Temple, and even the narrative of the OT (Isaac vs Ishmael, confusing Moses's sister with the Virgin Mary etc). Christians do not deny foundational Jewish claims that existed in the first century. Islam does this repeatedly. John’s concern is therefore completely illegitimate and invalid.
I tried listening to his meaning crisis series and had to stop because it seemed like he had a very poor and inaccurate understanding of a lot of the things he was talking about. For example, his understanding that Buddhism is a "methodology" and not a belief system is just completely wrong and is a secularized modern Western interpretation of Buddhism. He also seems to be trying to force synchretism too much, either intentionally or otherwise.
Tell all the truth but tell it slant Success in Circuit lies Too bright for our infirm Delight The Truths superb surprise As lightning to the children eased With explanation kind The truth must dazzle gradually Or every man be blind
I’ve been looking into 1917 Fatima again and all the stuff going on in the world right now seems to be making her warning come true so I guess there’s no stopping the chastisement at this point but at this point I also understand why it’s coming. Just keep an eye on the sky I guess maybe get to see something amazing before all the horrible
Thanks for the talk, such a life giving topic held by two truly blazing souls! Some unformed thoughts: scalability; archetypes/imaginal images as fractal in nature thus self-same across scale as regards the affective capacity of their meaning; logos as scalable qua this same fractal principle and integrative in principle, which is to say each and every can align with the One and one another because at base any logos is only quasi-particular, merging ambigously into the infinite/infinitely iterable (fractal); the approach of horizons as coming to the limit of a certain scale in a fractal map, i.e zooming in or out to a point at which the next iteration, the more or less comprehensive iteration, is yet to be in view, whilst the view previously visible reduces or recedes; in light of these thoughts, it may be helpful to consider transpersonal/personal or inter-agency (not simply intersubjective in an anthropocentric sense) interaction through meaning/pattern/image by way of the analogical lense of chaos dynamics, in which these fractal principles are at play - as well as the generative/emergent behaviour of permutations of a seed (i.e a seed of meaning which throughout history is iterated in human behaviour of a more explicit and more wide reaching kind). Would be interested to hear if this resonates! Love ❤
John could talk to Fr. Stephen De Young about Christians interpreting Jewish scripture better than the Jews. Lots of history there that he should absolutely dive into. Second Temple period is way different than Rabbinic Judaism.
The ratio (i think) is like a course towards good, or proper, ordered, oriented but the road is known. It‘s not a detailed prediction, just an orientation.
While these talks are necessary and Dr Vervaeke means well, and is helping people as well as brings people to a fork that allows a choice between man made syncretism and Christianity, it’s still heavy traffic both ways between Orthodoxy and a spectrum of ecumenism to outright gnosticism. He has legit concerns about Apocalypticism as typically manifest in the west, but a double standard when he and Sam invoke Teilhard De Chardin to propose a “christian” transhumanism, while Chardin’s Omega point was insane universalist esoteric apocalypticism. They use him to syncretize and are currently using him for globalist syncretism in the Yale Ecology and Religion courses the same way Fr Seraphim Rose outlined Chardin would be used. The ecumenists and subversives will use John’s, David Bentley Hart, Peterson’s, and McgilChrist’s ideas for extra-ecclesiastic authority, along with the elites and ideologues using them fir a much more sinister praxis. Sam (who is partly Vervaeke overlapping and contingent with Christianized/Uniate versions of similar ideas) also advocates this “christian” Transhumanism via the Huxley’s whose Christianity without tears was an actual elite plan advocated at Huxley’s Berkley speech, in which amelioration involved enslavement to the passions that started with sexualizing children as we see today, and desires not to be constrained by humanity and God given identity. It’s much the same ideas John has in a more sinister manner that brazenly uses Luciferian and antichrist symbolism, such as Howard Bloom’s Genius of the Beast, or Blavatsky’s Lucifer Publishing that was the UN’s religious publishing house, seeking to blend world religion with similar projects to John’s, or what John’s colleague Schmactenberger talks about in COINTEL pro when New Age and ecumenism were pushed, as it was also pushed by the Rockefellers and in Operation Gladio when process theology was put into the Vatican over time. Sorry, but this is antichrist typology, and just as Neoplatonic critique of Gnosticism was inconsequential, so are John’s critiques of esotericism and the corporate elite because they use ideas and beliefs similar to his and he doesn’t have a good theology in his non theism or ability to address evil beyond legit critiques of right wing and traditional neoliberal greed before it became woke. I also thank Jonathan for talking to John about this and admitting what he is right about and presenting some Orthodox eschatology and differentiating it from dispensationalism and paranoia. Bishop Marretta just fleshed out some of his thoughts on this on COTEL and I look forward to his further talks with Vervaeke they just recorded. You have to hand it to Dr. Vervaeke for having these talks too, and I agree that this style of talk deserves primacy next to participation and being known by one’s works, though I do think it is used to avoid a necessary place for secondary debate and apologetics secondary to dialogos in an ecology of discussions. One major point John made was that Christianity had to change in his original AI talk, but Orthodoxy resists and very slowly integrates change while having some non negotiable absolute unchangables, precisely the reason it didn’t need John’s reciprocal reconstruction, has the tools for the meaning crisis, and problematized John’s position on Neoplatonism without even being in full debate.
It’s also irrelevant wether this is the final end times or just a type of the pattern: the result is to more deeply participate in the world, Christianity, prayer, fasting, almsgiving, reality and relationships. It’s not an escape from the world and as Jonathan pointed out, or recent COTEL talks on the biblical semiotics of Gardens, we have a proper place for creativity and techne *within revealed dogma and the parameters of ethical covenant keeping.* This also means any Christian who stood up to Nero, Communism, Fascism, Jacobinism, Napoleon, subversion, ecumenism, and now this wokeness and the Fabian Transhumanists leveraging it have and are participating in defending Christ’s kingdom on earth. Period. Also, lack of Orthodox participation and patristic understanding of the Apocalypse leads to it being a heresy factory, and things like dispensationalist fundamentalism to David Koresh. However, the initial sighting of the typology in what we are dealing with is not wrong, and the current pushing of film on Waco and Christian cults, fundamentalism are a prepared response for where the cultural debate is going to go. All this stuff will be thrown aside and a caricature of eschatology presented as propaganda and gaslighting.
@@Ac-ip5hd I have an app I am building. Where would you point a fellow orthodox to go to have his creativity and techne be in its proper place? I’ve tried talking with my parish priest but I hadn’t had much luck with explaining my concerns. Icons can be painted. They can be carved. Can one code a window into Heaven? Every keystroke having a prayer is what I am saying. Not an image. A presencing of the Holy Spirit. I’m an extremely reluctant wanna-be-hero in these times. How does my pattern fit into His will? Where would you point me to get mentorship around coding an orthodox app?
@@BrotherLaymanPaul I agree on praying for John and though I am critiquing him bluntly do really think he is a good person. I think it’s the spirit of his project and trajectory of Western philosophy that he is trying to fix, and loss of Orthodoxy in the West. I think if you see the overlaps and distinct arguments on religion and philosophy our original, counciliar, post schism, and contemporary Saints have made on ecumenism, the schism, reformation and enlightenment compared with John’s AFTMC, then it’s just the large scale trajectory into apostacy and an alternative to Christ with man centered religion, that ironically leverages anti human process philosophy for flux and is anti image of God and identity. Fr Seraphim Rose outlines this and distills the patristic eye on western philosophy and religion post schism up to all this new age stuff. In addition to the elites in co-conspiracy with the masses who turn to these ideologies out of willful blindness, being duped, and getting what they want ideologically and hedonistically, there is also the issue of who is interested in John’s project at the emergent and small level. In these corners there’s not just left wing esoteric types and occultists, but conservatives who amount to post platonic neo-Arianism [fateruchi, Leferbve, Petersonian libertarians and conservatives etc.] What’s worse is that will meet in a feedback loop with the top down influence on religion as well as the way Vervaeke open sources this which will lead to massive problems when his liminal practices are given to people who are overtaken by them meeting up, let alone the creeps and cult leaders who will smell this a mile away, and in the cases of Jim Jones, Crowley, Jack Parsons, L Ron, Laurel Canyon and plenty more there was history of intelligence ties, ops, and NGO funding in different ways, and some of the gurus pushed into society. Ken Wilbur too, who is a central thinker in 90% of the projects adjacent, cooperating with, and using Vervaeke, had UN and Clinton ties: trying to save and evolve out of post modernism and end all religious dogmas. I think it’s a demonic dialectic at large scale, and these elites and philosophers just fit into a larger theological frame the way Herod and Pilate became friends against Christ and St John the Baptiser rebuked Herod, the spirits had Pharaoh and his court magicians, the antideluvian knowledge was kept by the Amorites and giants fought in David, Joshua and the Deuterocanon etc. I think it would require mass repentance on the scale of Nineveh to stop it, and mass conversion to Orthodoxy with the sedimentary and obstinate Heterodox on the periphery being more sophisticated and forcing the non Christians to be more Christian via to contend with our points.
Communicating the transcendental is nearly impossible, it's not understandable by the human mind, is ultimately only an experience that one can witness, taking darshan of the eternal supreme personality of bliss, who is in all things and with all beings, unceasingly. A personal relationship, loving and service based, with the eternal loving Lord, is the requirement for entry into the eternal realm. A cult of personality. Jai Jai Sri Krishna 🪔🙏🌹
1:07:32 On naming and The Name: This part about self naming is also very interesting to me as I've recently taken initiation and received my spiritual name from my Gurudev. It's very meaningful to me that he sees me, and that relationship is part and parcel of my relationship with the Lord. All glories to Sri Guru! Vervaeke is respecting the holy names of the Lord by offering glories and obeisances to Lord Jesus and to his spiritual masters. 🙏
I love these conversations, but why are people so scared of just embracing Christianity? They are asking questions and then refusing to accept the answer staring them in the face.
Dying to self, in being a true Christian, isn't an easy decision for many people to make. Most of the time, a person has to be broken and cry out to God for help spontaneously verses " accepting" Christ under coercion from someone. Seek and you shall find, ask and it shall be given. Matt 7:7 This favorite scripture illustrates the person needs to do the action, not just accept what someone else is sharing with them. This in no way negates our responsibility as true Christians to share the gospel.
59:38 _“I think you might be right about the death and resurrection of Christianity,_ _and I think I'm still very open to what that might be.”_ What they're looking for here is the Bahá'í concept of progressive revelation.
I think the big issue is being aware that the mind of God encompasses what the micro will reveal. And because gods mind is love and its awareness is everything and formed or nothing and not complete, its okay to forget the wisdom that comes from the micro, as it can always be redeemed for $$$. But love is free to be what I Am, including what AI reveals
13:55 symbolism happens “Maximal frame breaking for the maximal frame making” happened when John touched Jonathan’s right foot while Jonathan had his arms outstretched.
“AI is moving toward the Beast in Revelation.” - Jonathan Pageau Sounds like a call to adventure to me. Chilling, yes, but one of those quick shivers that makes you stand up and begin pacing and thinking and moving your blood and body and thoughts toward…a deeper relationship with God that compels you toward right action.
Would have been great to have had a fine muslim mystic and thinker up on the stage and also some truly enlightened soul outside any particular tradition like Adyashanti.
@@CB-eu3ix No, I am more into the christian esoteric way, but I do read the classic sufi masters. I have heard people talk about contemporary sheiks but forgot their names.
So, you're saying that the heat of a Christian, which would not melt the snow flakes on his shoulders, is the same as that of a non-christian, which would
A psychopath or sociopath that likes to torture others getting wiser at it is not a good thing... So wiser isnt always better, a criminal who is wiser because of the previous run ins with the law is harder to catch👍
Two extreme introverts apologizing over and over to each other for mistaken implications ...sorry, no I'm sorry, oops I mean I'm sorry, no I am more sorry...
![BOWKYLION - วิงวอน (ex-change) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cLdnZWDaO-w/mqdefault.jpg)
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 88 | คู่เอก "ป้อมเพชร vs อัสลามจอน"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1ZqTVVbMgbo/mqdefault.jpg)
The best opening ever
It’s so interesting to hear the differences in each of their approaches. I hear more knowledge in John but more wisdom in Jonathan. They compliment each other well.
e
Jonathan plays the drums and John keeps time
well, John is an academic scholar and Jonathan is an icon carver.
Discussion like this was kept hidden away so long, grateful to be a witness to this
It often feels like Jonathan knows how to dance and John has to obsess over measuring steps and rhythm.
Good one
I’m telling you, Jonathan is Judzia Dax and John is Warf son of Mogh.
They are representing our left and right brain hemispheres talking to each other in coherence😅
100 percent
@@GetUnlabeled you get it!
That was a beautiful conversation.
This talk seems to have very little to do with the title of the video, but that's alright because it was exactly the sort of topic I needed to hear these words about.
Putting all of your trust in God is an amazing way of overcoming anxiety, also, I learned radical humility from Saint Theresa of Avila and his book The Way of Perfection. It felt like a blessing to me when I finally learned to be humble. In humility we make way for God to act in the world and our faith grows at the same time, as we contemplate his might.
Amen! She was formative in my faith journey. What an incredible women after God’s own heart.
Yesterday a 19-year-old that I love had his name legally changed. It's impossible for him to understand why I didn't want him to do that. Maybe we all sort of self-name when we are young and a bit rebellious. And we find ourselves when we humbly commit to something better than ourselves alone.
Great discussion. These discussions always remind me of what is really dying or what is really being killed.
" Christendom has had a series of revolutions and in each one of them Christianity has died. Christianity has died many times and risen again; for it had a god who knew the way out of the grave. But the first extraordinary fact which marks this history is this: that Europe has been turned upside down over and over again; and that at the end of each of these revolutions the same religion has again been found on top. The Faith is always converting the age, not as an old religion but as a new religion." - G.K. Chesterton.
You cant kill something that is beyond death. Mystical bodies dont really die do they? When Pagaeu says Christianity is dying it seems an odd statement to practicing Christians but he is reflecting on old meta-physics. The promised land and the wilderness are reality both globally and individually. For those of us who are finding it hard and demoralizing at times, keep moving forward if you can. Your not alone and there is mystical body that is always there to aim for. Some things appear to die ... but come back higher.
jonathan spoke very beautifully of Christ
Man that way of talking about reality and its constituent patterns (archetypes) as transpersonal beings/forces/entities/agencies/personalities/spirits makes so much sense to me. In some sense we truly are the playings of the gods (lust/sexual desire, gluttony, rage, kindness) - but maybe we don't have to be, because it seems to me that we can participate in the cosmic dance/war of the spirits by choosing which ones we invite into our heart, which spirits we allow to possess us, to guide us, to follow, to celebrate, to worship. And in doing so, we co-shape & participate in the unfolding of reality itself, as part of the body of these transpersonal agencies.
What also strikes a cord with me is the idea that we do not define our identity and core values ourselves, but that they are revealed to us (like the burning bush that shines forth out of nowhere to Moses) and we can choose whether we follow and pursue that which compels and interests us spontaneously, seemingly out of its own accord. It's like a calling, the voice of destiny beckoning us to move forward towards who we could and should be, if we actualized all of the potential that is hidden inside of us, wating to be manifested.
Thanks for the talk, that was both thought-provoking and inspiring.
Excellent analogy 🤔 👍 🙏
The Angel's will come and separate the wicked from among the righteous. Snatching the wicked person to be slain outside the city gates
That's pervert stuff
@@biscuitsandthat it wont be good for the perverted that's for sure
@@andrewclemons8619 bro, you sound like one of them
@@biscuitsandthat With that stance I doubt there is Brotherly consideration and affordances. Here. Have some butter for your biscuits. 🧈
@@gregorywitcher5618 old mate's over here getting a hard-on at the thought of other people's suffering. Hard to afford him much at all, but I manage it.
Thanks
Awesome chat. Please do more and talk more about the disagreement at the end as this is where I’m at also.
Most canadian intro ever
That’s what I’m talking aboot, eh!!
For me, broadening the view of the horizon with the pattern of the revelation made me wake up and removed all my doubt about god‘s existence and that god reveals for us the reality which he made, with revelation and with his-story 😅 I‘m not even half way through and got only half of it, yet what little I understand very deeply actually, i find so exiting and it‘s so great being able to listen to you talk! Thank you!
18:00 “I don’t mean to stop being a Christian. I just mean to die!”
The lesser of two evils. 😂
Re-listening to this. ~26:00 Jonathan's eschatological vision brings together two Biblical poles in synthesis: "There's nothing new under the sun" (Ecclesiastes) and "Behold, I make all things new" (Revelation)
I love how at the very end they are both reaching out to shake hands with one another both using both hands. It’s a modified hug, in my eyes.
1:10:43-1:11:30 Jonathan touches John’s knee and then proceeds to celebrate him, even calling for the crowd to join. We are all “Christian-like” like John because we are all made in the Image and Likeness of God. Jonathan seems to be making a symbolic liturgical (pastoral, maybe better put?) celebration of Christ is John. “Don’t you think?”-JP
T-shirt: “I guess that there is a little bit of pushback.” JV
“You should because I just said a whole bunch of crazy stuff!” JP
I love how Jon, and John's articulation styles combine when they talk. It often opens up into insight for me when I'm listening. Because they are different
42:31 Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars: She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table.
She hath sent forth her maidens: she crieth upon the highest places of the city, Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,
Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine which I have mingled.
Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.
Thank you
It’s simply not true that Christianity breaks with tradition and claims to read the Jewish scriptures better than the Jewish people. This exhibits historical ignorance. All of the first Christians were Jews and the majority of early Christian thought was a natural development of Jewish thought that existed before the advent of Christ. Even modern Jewish scholars admit that Christianity is a legitimate branching off of Jewish thought that existed in the first century. Judaism has to be seen as a reaction to the appearance of Christianity, and is not at all the same religion that existed in the Old Testament. The case of Islam is analogous in the least (Mormonism makes a far superior case lol) because Islam does not claim to be a fulfillment of Christianity (not in praxis) but rather the replacement of Christianity (which is evidenced by the Quran being a completely new “revelation” and not the addition of a new covenant to the OT and NT - unlike the Bible which adds the New to the Old). Unlike Christianity which claims to be the fulfillment of the Old Testament and exists in narrative continuity with it, Islam does away with everything that comes before it and exists as an aberration and corruption of that which came before it. Islam denies the entire Semitic tradition, including the feasts and the Temple, and even the narrative of the OT (Isaac vs Ishmael, confusing Moses's sister with the Virgin Mary etc). Christians do not deny foundational Jewish claims that existed in the first century. Islam does this repeatedly. John’s concern is therefore completely illegitimate and invalid.
I tried listening to his meaning crisis series and had to stop because it seemed like he had a very poor and inaccurate understanding of a lot of the things he was talking about. For example, his understanding that Buddhism is a "methodology" and not a belief system is just completely wrong and is a secularized modern Western interpretation of Buddhism. He also seems to be trying to force synchretism too much, either intentionally or otherwise.
Tell all the truth but tell it slant
Success in Circuit lies
Too bright for our infirm Delight
The Truths superb surprise
As lightning to the children eased
With explanation kind
The truth must dazzle gradually
Or every man be blind
I’ve been looking into 1917 Fatima again and all the stuff going on in the world right now seems to be making her warning come true so I guess there’s no stopping the chastisement at this point but at this point I also understand why it’s coming. Just keep an eye on the sky I guess maybe get to see something amazing before all the horrible
Fatima is the most important message Mother Mary sent us, it is heaven engaging directly with earth
Look at LA Marzullis take on Fatima... might make you think twice about what happened there
My curiosity says yes, but my anxiety says also yes.
Thanks for the talk, such a life giving topic held by two truly blazing souls!
Some unformed thoughts: scalability; archetypes/imaginal images as fractal in nature thus self-same across scale as regards the affective capacity of their meaning; logos as scalable qua this same fractal principle and integrative in principle, which is to say each and every can align with the One and one another because at base any logos is only quasi-particular, merging ambigously into the infinite/infinitely iterable (fractal); the approach of horizons as coming to the limit of a certain scale in a fractal map, i.e zooming in or out to a point at which the next iteration, the more or less comprehensive iteration, is yet to be in view, whilst the view previously visible reduces or recedes; in light of these thoughts, it may be helpful to consider transpersonal/personal or inter-agency (not simply intersubjective in an anthropocentric sense) interaction through meaning/pattern/image by way of the analogical lense of chaos dynamics, in which these fractal principles are at play - as well as the generative/emergent behaviour of permutations of a seed (i.e a seed of meaning which throughout history is iterated in human behaviour of a more explicit and more wide reaching kind). Would be interested to hear if this resonates! Love ❤
John could talk to Fr. Stephen De Young about Christians interpreting Jewish scripture better than the Jews. Lots of history there that he should absolutely dive into. Second Temple period is way different than Rabbinic Judaism.
Great Talk 🗣〰️⚡
Keep Shining ☀️ Bright 🌟
Friends ✌
🖖🏿🙏🏿🤙🏿!!!☦️
The ratio (i think) is like a course towards good, or proper, ordered, oriented but the road is known. It‘s not a detailed prediction, just an orientation.
Thanks!
While these talks are necessary and Dr Vervaeke means well, and is helping people as well as brings people to a fork that allows a choice between man made syncretism and Christianity, it’s still heavy traffic both ways between Orthodoxy and a spectrum of ecumenism to outright gnosticism.
He has legit concerns about Apocalypticism as typically manifest in the west, but a double standard when he and Sam invoke Teilhard De Chardin to propose a “christian” transhumanism, while Chardin’s Omega point was insane universalist esoteric apocalypticism.
They use him to syncretize and are currently using him for globalist syncretism in the Yale Ecology and Religion courses the same way Fr Seraphim Rose outlined Chardin would be used. The ecumenists and subversives will use John’s, David Bentley Hart, Peterson’s, and McgilChrist’s ideas for extra-ecclesiastic authority, along with the elites and ideologues using them fir a much more sinister praxis.
Sam (who is partly Vervaeke overlapping and contingent with Christianized/Uniate versions of similar ideas) also advocates this “christian” Transhumanism via the Huxley’s whose Christianity without tears was an actual elite plan advocated at Huxley’s Berkley speech, in which amelioration involved enslavement to the passions that started with sexualizing children as we see today, and desires not to be constrained by humanity and God given identity.
It’s much the same ideas John has in a more sinister manner that brazenly uses Luciferian and antichrist symbolism, such as Howard Bloom’s Genius of the Beast, or Blavatsky’s Lucifer Publishing that was the UN’s religious publishing house, seeking to blend world religion with similar projects to John’s, or what John’s colleague Schmactenberger talks about in COINTEL pro when New Age and ecumenism were pushed, as it was also pushed by the Rockefellers and in Operation Gladio when process theology was put into the Vatican over time.
Sorry, but this is antichrist typology, and just as Neoplatonic critique of Gnosticism was inconsequential, so are John’s critiques of esotericism and the corporate elite because they use ideas and beliefs similar to his and he doesn’t have a good theology in his non theism or ability to address evil beyond legit critiques of right wing and traditional neoliberal greed before it became woke.
I also thank Jonathan for talking to John about this and admitting what he is right about and presenting some Orthodox eschatology and differentiating it from dispensationalism and paranoia. Bishop Marretta just fleshed out some of his thoughts on this on COTEL and I look forward to his further talks with Vervaeke they just recorded.
You have to hand it to Dr. Vervaeke for having these talks too, and I agree that this style of talk deserves primacy next to participation and being known by one’s works, though I do think it is used to avoid a necessary place for secondary debate and apologetics secondary to dialogos in an ecology of discussions.
One major point John made was that Christianity had to change in his original AI talk, but Orthodoxy resists and very slowly integrates change while having some non negotiable absolute unchangables, precisely the reason it didn’t need John’s reciprocal reconstruction, has the tools for the meaning crisis, and problematized John’s position on Neoplatonism without even being in full debate.
It’s also irrelevant wether this is the final end times or just a type of the pattern: the result is to more deeply participate in the world, Christianity, prayer, fasting, almsgiving, reality and relationships.
It’s not an escape from the world and as Jonathan pointed out, or recent COTEL talks on the biblical semiotics of Gardens, we have a proper place for creativity and techne *within revealed dogma and the parameters of ethical covenant keeping.*
This also means any Christian who stood up to Nero, Communism, Fascism, Jacobinism, Napoleon, subversion, ecumenism, and now this wokeness and the Fabian Transhumanists leveraging it have and are participating in defending Christ’s kingdom on earth. Period.
Also, lack of Orthodox participation and patristic understanding of the Apocalypse leads to it being a heresy factory, and things like dispensationalist fundamentalism to David Koresh.
However, the initial sighting of the typology in what we are dealing with is not wrong, and the current pushing of film on Waco and Christian cults, fundamentalism are a prepared response for where the cultural debate is going to go. All this stuff will be thrown aside and a caricature of eschatology presented as propaganda and gaslighting.
To the extent I understood what you’ve presented I’d say; very well communicated indeed!
@@Ac-ip5hd I have an app I am building. Where would you point a fellow orthodox to go to have his creativity and techne be in its proper place? I’ve tried talking with my parish priest but I hadn’t had much luck with explaining my concerns. Icons can be painted. They can be carved. Can one code a window into Heaven? Every keystroke having a prayer is what I am saying. Not an image. A presencing of the Holy Spirit. I’m an extremely reluctant wanna-be-hero in these times. How does my pattern fit into His will? Where would you point me to get mentorship around coding an orthodox app?
@@BrotherLaymanPaul 1.) “We as Orthodox Christians do not think about revelations, *but by way of revelation*.” That’s a great way of saying it!
@@BrotherLaymanPaul I agree on praying for John and though I am critiquing him bluntly do really think he is a good person.
I think it’s the spirit of his project and trajectory of Western philosophy that he is trying to fix, and loss of Orthodoxy in the West. I think if you see the overlaps and distinct arguments on religion and philosophy our original, counciliar, post schism, and contemporary Saints have made on ecumenism, the schism, reformation and enlightenment compared with John’s AFTMC, then it’s just the large scale trajectory into apostacy and an alternative to Christ with man centered religion, that ironically leverages anti human process philosophy for flux and is anti image of God and identity.
Fr Seraphim Rose outlines this and distills the patristic eye on western philosophy and religion post schism up to all this new age stuff.
In addition to the elites in co-conspiracy with the masses who turn to these ideologies out of willful blindness, being duped, and getting what they want ideologically and hedonistically, there is also the issue of who is interested in John’s project at the emergent and small level.
In these corners there’s not just left wing esoteric types and occultists, but conservatives who amount to post platonic neo-Arianism [fateruchi, Leferbve, Petersonian libertarians and conservatives etc.]
What’s worse is that will meet in a feedback loop with the top down influence on religion as well as the way Vervaeke open sources this which will lead to massive problems when his liminal practices are given to people who are overtaken by them meeting up, let alone the creeps and cult leaders who will smell this a mile away, and in the cases of Jim Jones, Crowley, Jack Parsons, L Ron, Laurel Canyon and plenty more there was history of intelligence ties, ops, and NGO funding in different ways, and some of the gurus pushed into society. Ken Wilbur too, who is a central thinker in 90% of the projects adjacent, cooperating with, and using Vervaeke, had UN and Clinton ties: trying to save and evolve out of post modernism and end all religious dogmas.
I think it’s a demonic dialectic at large scale, and these elites and philosophers just fit into a larger theological frame the way Herod and Pilate became friends against Christ and St John the Baptiser rebuked Herod, the spirits had Pharaoh and his court magicians, the antideluvian knowledge was kept by the Amorites and giants fought in David, Joshua and the Deuterocanon etc.
I think it would require mass repentance on the scale of Nineveh to stop it, and mass conversion to Orthodoxy with the sedimentary and obstinate Heterodox on the periphery being more sophisticated and forcing the non Christians to be more Christian via to contend with our points.
Let's get it over with already
47:27
The icon vs the idol is an accidental yet indispensable commentary on Krishna consciousness. Haribol! ❤🙏 Jai Jai Sri Radhe!
Communicating the transcendental is nearly impossible, it's not understandable by the human mind, is ultimately only an experience that one can witness, taking darshan of the eternal supreme personality of bliss, who is in all things and with all beings, unceasingly.
A personal relationship, loving and service based, with the eternal loving Lord, is the requirement for entry into the eternal realm. A cult of personality. Jai Jai Sri Krishna 🪔🙏🌹
1:07:32
On naming and The Name:
This part about self naming is also very interesting to me as I've recently taken initiation and received my spiritual name from my Gurudev. It's very meaningful to me that he sees me, and that relationship is part and parcel of my relationship with the Lord.
All glories to Sri Guru!
Vervaeke is respecting the holy names of the Lord by offering glories and obeisances to Lord Jesus and to his spiritual masters. 🙏
I wouldn't say people see humble people as weak and look down on them.
A good pop culture example is how beloved and respected Keanu Reeves is.
Where it that first reply?
I love these conversations, but why are people so scared of just embracing Christianity? They are asking questions and then refusing to accept the answer staring them in the face.
Why would a prodigal son question, run and squander away all his inheritance just to rediscover his Father? It's just very archetypal.
Dying to self, in being a true Christian, isn't an easy decision for many people to make. Most of the time, a person has to be broken and cry out to God for help spontaneously verses " accepting" Christ under coercion from someone. Seek and you shall find, ask and it shall be given. Matt 7:7
This favorite scripture illustrates the person needs to do the action, not just accept what someone else is sharing with them. This in no way negates our responsibility as true Christians to share the gospel.
Jordan Peterson is our Elijah
59:38
_“I think you might be right about the death and resurrection of Christianity,_
_and I think I'm still very open to what that might be.”_
What they're looking for here is the Bahá'í concept of progressive revelation.
I think the big issue is being aware that the mind of God encompasses what the micro will reveal. And because gods mind is love and its awareness is everything and formed or nothing and not complete, its okay to forget the wisdom that comes from the micro, as it can always be redeemed for $$$. But love is free to be what I Am, including what AI reveals
Why did you not use Capital G for your use of the Word?
Hope comes from meeting God. Meet God by trying to emulate him.
13:55 symbolism happens “Maximal frame breaking for the maximal frame making” happened when John touched Jonathan’s right foot while Jonathan had his arms outstretched.
Explain lol?
It seems they would have prepared better chairs for these men 😅. Looks highly uncomfortable
24:19 🥶
“AI is moving toward the Beast in Revelation.” - Jonathan Pageau
Sounds like a call to adventure to me. Chilling, yes, but one of those quick shivers that makes you stand up and begin pacing and thinking and moving your blood and body and thoughts toward…a deeper relationship with God that compels you toward right action.
can you do a video about the symbolisms in movie john wick
Would have been great to have had a fine muslim mystic and thinker up on the stage and also some truly enlightened soul outside any particular tradition like Adyashanti.
Do you know any muslim mystics living today worth checking out?
@@CB-eu3ix No, I am more into the christian esoteric way, but I do read the classic sufi masters. I have heard people talk about contemporary sheiks but forgot their names.
Read Gurdjieff.
But you forgot to tell us how to prepare for the apocalypse. 😅
"No one gets into Heaven without a glow stick." - Homer Simpson
Let’s get these men some comfortable chairs next time please
Eid al Fitr = Back to the Origination (All is Thought) careful steps make beautiful pathway's
If that table were placed between and behind them, they could both put their water on it. Boy it's distracting me!
I've been handed the new origin, the reinvention is going to blow everyone's minds, we should discuss it
So, you're saying that the heat of a Christian, which would not melt the snow flakes on his shoulders, is the same as that of a non-christian, which would
How does one best “thing” in a “thinkie” fashion?
58:00 - 1:00:35 I’m building an app. I would appreciate mentorship. I think Mattheiu Pageau is my guy. Any other suggestions or volunteers?
A psychopath or sociopath that likes to torture others getting wiser at it is not a good thing...
So wiser isnt always better, a criminal who is wiser because of the previous run ins with the law is harder to catch👍
that is not wiser, that is smarter.
@@IIIUTUBEIII Thank U
Vervaeke needs to become a Christian already. Idc what he has to say until he accepts Christ
Two extreme introverts apologizing over and over to each other for mistaken implications ...sorry, no I'm sorry, oops I mean I'm sorry, no I am more sorry...
They're Canadians. They always overapologize.
Something about the exibition style of these talks makes them less authentic. I miss the days of shity low production pod casts.