Forgot to mention scorch shot's sticky removal. You can do exactly the same with detonator - just explode the flare next to stickies :) Make sure to subscribe if you enjoyed this video! I upload weekly. DISCORD: discord.gg/EMZhDXV TWITCH: twitch.tv/vorobey69
HiGPS also did this weird switch claim it was OP. Initially on release the Scorch was underwhelming (2012), then around Gun Mettle (2015) he deemed a decent side grade, now after JI (2017+) in his developing of BalanceMod, it OP??? I been using the Scorch Shot way before it became popular, so to see the hate come out of nowhere after JI was one of wildest thing I witnessed. I frankly like using all flare guns, because they all have their use. Don’t get me wrong I know the Scorch Shot can be annoying, but to claim that it OP requires mental gymnastics and willful ignorance. However I will debate you on the Sniper claim since the devs also had some issues with the stock Sniper Rifle being so powerful for “experienced players” in development. Evidence being the Dev Commentary & Blog post, and the design of other sniper unlocks
@@andyfriederichsen you’re missing the joke here. If you say scorch shot is balanced, people are gonna come after you because of your unpopular opinion.
I prefer detonator personally. Since you detonate it in the air, its aoe is a sphere rather than a dome. So it has literally twice the vertical aoe. Also, you can delay the detonation if the enemy moves away from you, or detonate earlier if they run towards you, whereas scorch shot doesn't allow any adjustment after it's fired. Finally, the jumps are better.
Not only, you can detonate it in the air, so you can hit an enemy from the side by detonating the flare at the right time, while with the Scorch Shot you have to aim to the ground.
@@LawreAnimations Yeah, I think it's especially relevant if you can shoot over the top of the cover an enemy is behind. Hitting the ground next to it might not reach. An example is the rocks on upward 2nd. Edit: or when the enemy has the high ground, such as the roof on badwater 2nd.
I’ve seen people complaining about the Scorch Shot for years, even before that certain youtuber’s video. The sniper thing is just a result of the bot crisis but to be perfectly fair when you have one high damage class based on long range in a game where everything else is primarily short range it…uhhh…you can figure it out.
@@Panzerram sniper is honestly overpowered if you have skill, but he shouldnt be nerfed, he may be ridiculous but that doesnt mean he should be changed i may have an unhealthy hatred against snipers but even i can understand theres not really anything wrong about it
@@blehh_mae the only counter (in all situations) for a good sniper is a spy or a better sniper but the spy cannot always do his job as he has too many factors against him (random crits, the sniper's unlockable weapons, an engineer nearby sniper, etc) so the only consistent counter for a sniper is another sniper ... sorry but playing against a sniper god is boring. you can hit a meatshot to that demo knight that is dominating your team, you can hit three pipes to that heavy that is being healed by a doctor the whole game but you cannot do anything to that sniper who is miles away
I think the main thing that separates these two weapons is the stun mechanic that the scorch shot has. Stun mechanics already suck as is, but giving it to such a spammable weapon really is terrible design. Edit: it is not hard to stun people at all like the loose cannon is.
Down choke points, the loose cannon is quite spammable, but it only knocks people back. If you want to stun them, you’ll have to aim and charge it a little to get double donks.
@@slayarch2217 it is really not THAT hard to use, but it definitely harder than scorch shot, it is a PRIMARY and it have less stunning potential. Oh, and it doesn't ignite you, and, just to know, it's damage output is comparable to the scorch shot's damage over time. It is probably spammable, but loose cannon is way more balanced.
The real problem with it is it requires way too little skill to use it properly. Simply it makes you feel unfair to fight against. Fire & forget style weapon with large explosion radius, combined with dot damage and knockback, arguably the 2 most annoying weapon stats to play against. You need a skill to time the explosion correctly when you're using the detonator. But with scorch, it's pretty much impossible to miss when you have the high ground. There is a reason why many people agree that something's annoying. Not because someone made a video about it or not, just because it actually is. Of course, there are players who never stop bitching about it in-game. But that only means that they're being toxic, doesn't prove something is broken or not. I liked the vid, but I'm pretty sure that "better" does not mean more annoying, nor "worse" does mean less annoying.
Rocket's speed: 1100 hammer units per sec, Flare's speed: 2000 hammer units per sec. Rocket has damage falloff meantime the flare isn't, and scorch has dot damage meantime the rocket isn't. Don't you guys think It's lame to bring a completely different weapon to defend it?
@Mackenzie Crowe Because it gives you a predictable amount of knockback not like stunlock, has no dot damage feature, and is much slower than the flare means much easier to deal with. In close range sure rocket is much more devastating, but wasn't we talking about how annoying the scorch long-range spam is? In that case, you're trying to compare 24 damage singular splash (potential 48 only if you're dumb enough to walk into the rocket) to 20 + 60~80 potential dot damage. Then it's clear why rocket long-range spam isn't hated. Predictable, not devastatingly powerful, not that stressful.
ppl rage when they die by a pyro because they feel it is unfair that pyro doesn't even have to aim, the same thing for scorch shot. That just the way pyro works
400hrs pyro main here Detonators: require timing your det to succeed igniting your target/multiple targets without needing a surface which make it excellent to counter flying/high mobility class Scorch shot: detonate in direct hit or when hitting a surface (wall/ground) with a blast radiuses that is a bit smaller than stock rocket this weapon will only punish less mobility class(poor snipers) but if your target have the high ground and no wall is right next to them then Ur scorch shot is just a flare gun that deal less damage and don't crit on burning target
@@preston_gaming6203 detnator/flare/scorch have the same afterburn time and damage that is 60 DMG and ramp that with the gun direct damage for example the flare deal 30 but scorch deal more if the target stand still( when it hit the ground after a direct hit) which make a 100/120 hp class die if they don't have a heal source or anything that help
the scorch shot has so many stats packed into one weapon that it invalidates the other flare guns. if you get hit by a scorch shot flare that bounces and hits you twice and minicrits as a light class, you die of afterburn from one click of the m1 button. and you can spam it to kill them even faster. and you actually have to have aim to use the other flare guns. not to mention the hitstun that comes into play more than you would think it does
@@preston_gaming6203 Lol this comment is ridiculous. The Scorch shot is honestly not that bad when compared to the Detonator. I feel like Pyro shouldn't really have an explosion AOE Secondary though. Kind of defeats the purpose of having to choose between a Shotgun and Flare Gun imo. Why get a shotgun when you can do more damage with the Scorchshot or Detonator and get AOE? Why use a normal Flare Gun for its range when the Scorchshot and Detonator have the same range and are much harder to miss? I always thought the purpose of the Flare Gun was to give the Pyro a situational long ranged option since he is supposed to be an up close and personal class. With the Scorchshot and Detonator Pyro actually becomes better than Soldier. He's better up close and at a distance. Plus he's faster on foot.
@@mee091000 The Shotgun on pyro is for close range high BURST damage, and finishing off enemies. The Detonator/Scorch has long range AOE pester damage, and Mobility. The Flare Gun is good at both, without the mobility and ease of use.
area denial is better with detonator and scorch shot which is kinda important in hl matches flaregun is still my second fav tho after pre nerf reserve shooter
Honestly the the op thing about the scorch shot is it's hidden stat to piss people off. Some are playing worse due to tunneling you, snipers often sacrifice their secondary in favor of the darwins and I've even seen kids ragequit cuz of that shit. People don't tend to complain about the detonator that much so it's an ez s>d for me. ;) Edit: I'm surprised. I expected way more salt in this vid.
I have the darwin's on constantly, but I almost never see scorch shots coming my way. But god when I get hit by one it sure is bliss, fire literally stops you from playing sniper for however long it's on you
I remember sniper being talked about YEARS ago. He's always been a point of contention in the community it's just with the bot crisis we got our collective noses rubbed into the carpet so to speak. Scorch shot was/is a fad though. I never heard shit about it back when.
To me it seems the opposite, Scorch Shot has all those weird over-engineered mechanics while Detonator is basically a Flare Gun that you can detonate midair.
The detonators does area damage but isn’t overboard like the scorch shot is. The scorch is the ultimate secondary, with damage, knock back, jumping, and sticky destroying. Overpowered isn’t the same as annoying but it might be both.
The detonator and the scorch have the SAME area of effect for their splash damage - 2.1m, about the size of an iron bomber pipe. The det also destroys stickies, det jumping is way better than scorch jumping and can be used offensively to chase as well as to flank, does slightly more damage than scorch, and is just overall more consistent at setting things on fire with manual detonation. You can hit anything from any angle with the det, plus u can always aim for directs and hit m2 when u miss. For the scorch, you have to commit to trying to hit the direct for a double bounce and risk missing, or go for a safe splash damage shot. And if you're always going for a splash damage shot, then the det does slightly more damage and just as much afterburn in that regard. The det and scorch shot are pretty much equals imo
@@Junya01 the only thing the det has on the scorch is jumping. The scorch is much easier to hit and way better at clearing stickies. You don’t have to “commit” to anything with the scorch shot. You just need to aim at a crowd and someone will get hit by the bouncing grenade. It does too much damage too quickly. The detonator needs to be aimed and timed.
@@Junya01 honestly the only bad thing i see is the stun stunning is never a good mechanic in my opinion cause it disrupts the gameflow and well its annoying to not be able to play even if ts only for second (thats why sandman was nerfed) being stunned and getting fire dmg uff thats a recipe for disaster
What mostly is annoying is that it has splash damage so you just fire at the floor but with detonator you use more skill by timing the shot and it is easier to dodge at least for me because I can predict them but scorch shot ? People who use it just use 0 braincells, they just always shoot it at the floor, dont aim and spam it 10x more and also it has such a freaking long burning time
@@kuunt6065 probably, but one time it felt for me like I was burning for eternity and i lost half of my health with one shot and it didn't bounce of me so it didn't hit me again
@@mordeczkapl77 I mean, if you can dodge detonator shots, you can dodge scorch shots The main difference between detonator and scorch is that detonator gives more control with airburst timing, while scorch shot relies on surfaces (such as walls, floors, and idiotic teammates). If you can avoid getting hit by the detonator’s airburst, you must also be positioned to avoid the scorch shot’s blast radius. Also, a single flare from the scorch shot will do a maximum of 60 afterburn damage over 7.5 seconds, which is the same as that of all other flare guns. A flare will always have the potential to do more than half the health of a light class, especially if you just let it burn “for eternity”.
@@TheOneWhoHasABadName the differance is that people with detonators have to time the shot but scorch shot has splash damage and it is annoying as hell, I would love to dodge demoman's explosives, then soldier's rockets
Vorobey, I have been playing TF2 since 2007. Sniper has always been fucking annoying and nobody but the people playing the character influences that opinion. I can tell you these opinions have not been influenced by a youtuber in the last two years.
It’s actually dumb. I started playing the game in only 2015 and I’ve been complaining about them since then - limitless skill cap is bad design, the other characters can’t compete. I don’t even enjoy playing sniper, and to be honest, despite the aim requirement he’s not engaging to play or particularly difficult. There’s no risk to picking him or going for picks
@@bezellik Its kinda like street fighter third strike where the skill gap is so high even decent vs a experienced player is a stomp. A good player gets to parry all your attacks and get a free combo into super. Like they did not account for parry monsters that exist on fightcade. Both are loved by the community and will mercilessly stomp you for the first 500 hours.
While that is true, they have been nerfed twice(?) since then, and I feel like the Gunslinger is still one of Engineers best weapons today. The fact that they deployed at full health, back then, was incredibly powerful.
@@Mutaburasaurus them deploying at full health was fine. Them HEALING to full as they constructed after starting full to begin, and building so fast without wrenching was ludicrous
I play on 2fort alot (the only place i play actually) When engies start setting up annoying sewer nest and they get out of hand... The Scorchy is my go-to weapon to counter-annoy them. Because when you can't beat them, annoy them back.
Skill. Scorch Shot's had a comparatively lower skill range, from floor to ceiling, than the Detonator's because you use the exact same skill you would for the normal Flare Gun to do almost the same thing. Detonator is unquestionably better but requires a different learnable skill, timing the detonation, as its skill floor, just to use the weapon effectively. You can, also, try to aim between or above a group of enemies to ignite them, but you still need to detonate at the right time, else only detonate one person with the direct hit or just miss entirely, which means its skill ceiling is already climbing much higher. Detonator even tests your decision making skills, in respect to igniting groups, and you have to time your blast or else your decisive strike to ignite one half a group instead of another is less effective or outright worthless. The Scorch Shot simply needs to be aimed and lead, just like the Flare Gun, for the same boons as the Detonator, namely comparable damage, and even alternative ones, such as leaving Snipers at melee death range or outright killing them if they can't find health by popping them up to prevent them from scoping and THEN causing them to flinch with the full-time afterburn effect (assuming they're not wearing the modern Darwin's Danger Shield or the Cozy Camper and sitting at full charge from hardscoping you) after getting hit by the flare twice since they couldn't move or air strafe away the bouncing flare, which some may consider more favorable situationally. There's not as much decision making, if any, along with the inability to test how well you can time the blast: it's just point at a group of enemies, fire, and watch the unfortunate victims you happened to click in the general direction of burn with full Afterburn, and a little more, after sustaining two explosive hits where one was a Mini-Crit. Issue isn't that the Scorch Shot is more egregiously more powerful than its contemporaries, but that it's as powerful with different benefits and utilities without needing any alternative skills (or having relevant trade-offs in stats, but I wasn't arguing that). Rambling: People can have fun whichever way they want. Detonator is better. I don't play Pyro with either. I use Shotgun. And I have seen a few complain about the Loose Cannon, but it's weird. Shoot the ball, and the enemy's sent flying back at high speeds, taking them out of the fight even if you didn't kill them. I don't know if it's more annyoing to fight against that playstyle than the Scorch Shot onto the objective or the spawn door tactic is, because Pyro sill has a primary that's potentially loaded with Crits or the ability to invalidate two power classes, a few more difficult-to-counter supporters, and check Demoknight entirely, the most popular sub-class of Demoman, who already gets shut-down by a Pyro who can right click, and never do I see any Demos intentionally trying to miss their cannonball timings just to knock people away. Can we say that Pyro's fundamentally flawed and the Pyro Update didn't do enough to fix him? Heavy's in need of that update, too, already, to rework him. Damage resistance doesn't feel like it's the way to go for his alternative primaries, at least to me. Valve's a big company, why does it take so long for these kinds of updates? Edit: Some stuff in my ramble. Nothing that changes the message
The Detonator just sold me over the Squirt Shot for its mobility, able to jump up the Hole in 2Fort that drops to the double entrance, really good to flank Sentries in the Stairs Area and to surprise the Folks, not expecting a Pyro coming from there.
A weapon with a shit design can't be fixed by stat changes. The scorch shot is a detonator with a lower skill requirement. The weapon needs a complete resign.
The bit about the youtuber parroting is pretty true, Uncle Dane did make a video about that himself "Stop Worshipping TH-camrs", despite him also 'kinda' jumping on the "nerf sniper" bandwagon, mentioning how the tf2 dev team would actually consider maybe not even having sniper in the game at all, either that was their way of joking or they were actually serious. The Tf2 blogs clearly explain how they work around Sniper but yeah.. It's whatever. Just doesn't deserve the hate tbh.
I love using the scorch shot and the detonator. Personally it’s my favorite part of playing pyro. It was great to see a whole video dedicated to them. I hate that it’s been demonized in the community, although I haven’t been called out in game. But then again I hardly play pyro anyways
Scorch shot has -33% dmg Detonator has -25% dmg Scorch shot can hit people twice on direct hit, and has the luxury of splash afterburn While detonator can explode mid-air anywhere near enemies - it just needs proper timing Both weapons mini crit vs burning players It's a pretty good conclusion that the weapon that deals more damage deals.. more damage
I'm a pyro main here and the main reason why I perfer the detonator is the detonator has a higher skill floor while the scorch has a lower skill floor like if someone with 10 hour on pyro has both weapon you can see the pyro struggling with the det but is doing very well with the scorch but if it's a god pyro...then yea there damage is identical Edit:I also relise that a big difference between the 2 is one u have to monitor and time where the others u can poke your head out for a sec and quickly fire it get behind cover and forget it not to mention (this only applies to light classes) with the dentonater u needs to hit the player twice to kill (if they don't heal) where as the scorch shot u need one direct hit (if the bouncing flare falls to the floor and mini CrItS) to kill a player (if they don't heal) combine that with the bouncing flare stun which can be...well trouble some even with the normal flare u need these 3 thing to kill a light class 1 u needed to already ignite them to crit them 2 u need to hit them with 2 direct flare to kill (which SOMETIMES u need 1 direct scorch shot flare to kill even if u miss it it SOMETIMES can ignite the person u missed) and finally 3 if there not already ignite from another pyro, cowmangler soilder, hou long heater heavy, So that's the main reason I hate the scorch shot it's not because of getting hit by it all the time it's the fact that with one shot that you can get alot of value from even if you were using another flare u could miss out on that flare value so plz tell me if u agree or disagree with my point here I don't mind criticism just as long as it's not very harsh
I never thought scorch shot was OP, just annoying to fight against sometimes lol. But any weapons in TF2 can be fun and that's what matters is just making the game fun.
in TFC, something like the scorch shot was the pyro's default weapon. The most threatening thing it did was cover your eyes in non-transparent flame sprites, their right click would quickswap to scorch shot instead of airblasting.
I dont think youtubers start bandwagons.. I think they just awaken what we've all considered complaining about.. like sniper was always a groan-inducing part of the game but nobody could really put it into words before a youtuber properly pointed out the source of frustration. same with scorch. sure theres still some bits of herd mentality that with enough people hating, for example, sniper, they start forgetting to blame their own mistakes. one of my medic main friends completely stopped blaming his own mistakes and just blames "the big bad OP quickscope" while completely forgetting that he was standing in one of the biggest sniper sightlines on upward.
Sniper is the only class in the game that can easily kill 4 of the 9 classes from any distance in the map just by shooting their finger with a charged shot. Sniper shouldn't deal 150 DMG in a charged bodyshot. Do you think it's fair for the Sniper to kill the Medic just by shooting their feet with a charged shot?
@@Anderson-kg5ex full charge body shot is fine, you sacrifice spacial awareness and a good amount of time +mobility to kill 1 guy that you may even miss, quickscoping is the part most people despise.
Det is far more fun IMO. Especially because not only is timing flares fun, but it’s also really fun to be able to pseudo-rocket jump with it. It’s definitely the most fun Pyro secondary in my opinion.
The main problem of this research is the fact that Voro compared effectiveness of those weapons, but people often complaining about inability of playing against a weapon and have at least some fun and free choice of tactics, not about effectiveness of gun in enemy's hands. As for the loose cannon, first - it's a PRIMARY, second - it doesn't ignite you, third - it have less stunning potential than scorch shot, and fourth - it have comparable damage output with scorch shot's one. And comparable means that loose cannon deal 131 ONLY when calculated and timed CLOSE range shot lands on enemy, other than that - around 50 damage maximum. Scorch Shot though deals full afterburn of 80 damage EVEN WITHOUT A DIRECT HIT. The direct hit though boosting that damage to somewhere around ≈40 of regular and minicrit flare direct damage + 80 of afterburn = 120 damage. For seconary. AT ANY RANGE. Oh, and loose cannon does not destroy stickies! So loose cannon, apparently, have less power than scorch shot, even if we keep in mind the one shot possibility.
I just like using the scorchy the same way I use the stock flare gun. (Just for those funny reactions) also, haha schorchy go brr, and sniper health go boo Edit: Quick tip, if you use scorch shot and your target is in front of a wall(preferably sticking to it) aim for the target's head, because the bouncing flare will(most of the time) hit the wall instead of hitting the ground. And if your target is nowhere near a wall, aim for their feet(same reason as when your target is infront of a wall). Edit 2: You can kill light classes with 1 shot from the scorchy(Direct hit with bouncing flare ofc).
I don’t hate the scorchshot because a TH-camr told me to, I hate it because of how distracting and easy it is to use against groups of people who are currently dealing with the rest of my team. Plus the knockback is just overkill to classes that already have limited mobility, and can’t hit long range targets with their weapons. Sidenote: The fact that you die faster from the Detonator is exactly why people don’t complain about it. It’s way less annoying to quickly die from a flare then it is to be stuck against a wall and wait for afterburner to kill you.
The knockback part only applies to heavy, everyone else can step out of the second bounce before it hits the ground. And if you're getting knockbacked while burning, then you have no chance of getting hit by the second bounce unless you're stuck by a wall. Also, getting hit by the second bounce as a player next to the person who got hit first means you aren't paying attention enough. The second bounce is reactable to step away from, that's what I always do. The only times I get hit by someone else's second bounce is when I'm not paying attention but even then, it's not hard to get extinguished or get health somewhere
Honestly I think people would start hating the scorch shot if it didin't stunlock, remove that and you'd be able to keep the "double donk" feature. I remember a few months back a youtuber I liked talked about the short circuit like it was "really overpowered" and I tried it and to my suprise, it wasn't overpowered because: 1. It's very slow to switch to and fire. 2. It can only shoot 3 times before you're screwed and 3. With the right timing a soldier and demo can still totally cuck a engie with it. It may still have flaws like not being able to see through it but that's it. Also weapons vary effectiveness depending on the user and their "inner playstyle" and might make it so for example someone wrecks house with detonator but sucks with scorch shot, same the otherway. I still agree that people should make their own opinions and not be "sheep" for youtubers but I still really dislike that just because a youtuber had that opinion that means that someone who also has that opinion is just a mindless sheep. Kind regards to Vorobey, you're an amazing youtuber and I respect your opinions.
I mostly agree, but I don’t think it should be called a “double donk” since no timing is involved (unlike the detonator). I think removing the stunlock & projectile bounce would be the best fit for the weapon since, as it is, it just seems too OP (my opinion, not a yters)
Most people who call the short circuit op only call it op when the engi has his ass firmly planted on the cart. I think it’s fine, but the people who call it op usually refer to the payload cart.
When there is 1 single engi on the cart pretty much all projectile classes are denied, which is an massive problem when the best ubered classes to deal with an push are Soldier and Demo (Pyro for Nests). And before u comment about Pyro Airblast, that one you can bait with an shotgun, and requires alot more skill than just spamming on the corridor with no need for timings. And it's very boring to deal, same as Snipers as "Respect the Sight-line" while the entire objective is in the sight-line.
I think the idea is that with scorch shot you can throw your enemies in the air while with the detonator you can throw yourself in the air if that makes sense
It feels like they added WAY too much flare gun ideas into one, you can hit people twice, the flare explodes on contact with surface, it deals knockback which increases on burning players, and it still mini crits ignited enemies
In my opinion I think that about what youtubers say everyone jumps on the train. Is that they do sometimes make a point I never thought off and actually makes sense in a way, the reason why maybe I find the weapon or class so annoying but I can't put it to words.
the thing is, the scorch shot has the increased explosion and is in general, more spammable and easy to use for noobs who cant time shit. the detonator on the other hand is also spammable but much more than the scorch shot in the hands of a skilled player because if you can aim and can time shit instead of relying on a bullshit explosion, you can nail your shots the scorch shot has a higher skill floor and a lower skill cieling whilst the detonator has a lower skill floor and a higher skill cieling
I don’t like the method for these tests, I feel what makes the scorch shot so good isn’t the amount of damage it does, it’s the fact that it distance stalls and can hit multiple times per shot. It destroying stickies also gives it more utility, making it by far the best secondary flare, but calling it overpowered is too much imo. I think it should be changed because it’s not fun to play against and doesn’t feel fair because it’s boarderline impossible to dodge in many situations and the multi hits are just frustrating. The solution I think is to make it do more damage but only give afterburn splash on direct hits; this would reward direct hits more than the current design while also focusing it much less on mindless spam and more so on utility and teamwork.
It can hit twice but the detonator still dealt more damage as it can consistenly hit multiple people, just requires more aim. The detonator can also destroy stickies. And dont forget the extra mobility which comes in very handy is pyro. You can do some crazy jumps with it. Its also less annoying to fight against. But I gotta agree, more testing needs to be done, but I honestly think the scorch is overrated and not better or worse than the detonator.
@@titicaca. scorch shot also destroys stickies though. And also sets multiple people on fire. Scorch shot's fire and forget ability allows you to focus on dodging or other movements without paying attention to tracking your shots and time to detonate. Sure it deals more damage but not significant enough to make it more useful than SS's stun. Detonator is most useful for flanking pyros due to its jumps.
i wouldn't mind the direct hits nerf. i always go for that anyway, and i'm pretty good at them. in fact, the entire reason i use scorchshots is because of the knockback direct hits have.
I think it should split into two weapons. Right now, it does way too many things at once. One part should embrace its incendiary grenade launcher identity: greatly reduce fire rate (or even make it a cooldown-based weapon) and projectile speed, remove direct damage on hit, in exchange for the ability to fire grenades that leave behind puddles of lava after rolling for a bit (on direct hit, it makes a puddle immediately). Lava lingers around for some time and burns enemies that step on it. The other part can be rebranded for utility, with good effects like fixed-arc knockback and sticky destruction, in exchange for greatly reduced damage
I agree that it seems to be everyone started hating the Scorchshot out of nowhere because bigger TH-camrs made videos about it. However, personally I don't really think the problem is that the Scorch Shot does too much damage, but rather that it is incredibly annoying to play against. You can literally one-shot light classes with the Scorchshot if they happen to be far enough from healing sources because It can hit you twice with the same projectile (in part because of the stunlock), effectively dealing double damage with 1 flare. It's not fun to play against. DPS isn't the issue, but burst damage. It takes no effort to hit people with and does too many things at once for no reason: It damages you with the initial hit. It sets you ablaze for full afterburn, regardless if you were directly hit or just caught in the (stock rocket sized) splash. It Stuns you after being hit, making a secondary hit more likely. It can destroy Stickies. You can Flare Jump with it. And on top of that does mini-crits on burning targets, making some of the above points even worse. On the other hand, the Detonator: Hits you. Does mini-crits on burning targets (but that can't be done in 1 shot, unlike the Scorchshot) To make use of the AOE you have to time your detonation, requiring some form of game sense or effort from the pyro. Can Flare Jump (I might have stolen some of the points from Dane's video or something, idk. but I agree with those viewpoints) I'm not saying brainless spam weapons are bad or the wrong way to play the game. However, the Scorchshot just simply does too many things well enough to be annoying.
Detonator can also destroy stickies. Detonator also applies full after burn on splash hit. Detonator has superior flare jump height. I have no idea where you're getting the idea that scorch shot can one-shot light classes - even assuming two ticks of afterburn between the two hits, you're still only getting 114, not the 125 you need.
I have literally done the testing. It "oneshots" because you get hit twice by the same projectile, causing the afterburn to reset, amounting to 126 damage.
@@Hombzy I actually did testing too now, and it appears the afterburn is bugged. It should be *resetting* the duration on the second hit, but it's actually lasting much longer. A target hit with both continues to burn even after a target hit with splash goes out.
Scorch Shots problem imo is that for the Detonator you need to be focused on the timing. With the Scorch Shot however, you dont even need to do anything.
Now I know the detonator might be the better overall choice for phlog, since it give more mobility and dmg. I still have plans with the scrotch shot though, mainly if go for double axtinguister crits.
24:14 Looks like people still don't know that this game is called *Team* Fortress 2 for a reason. Besides, it's your own fault if you end up in such circumstances where you get ganged up by multiple players. Btw, true chads counter spamming pyro by going pyro themselves and equpping manmelter.
28:45 It isn’t because they can do more damage than stock, we complain about scorch shot because it gives more damage for less skill. Loose cannon requires a huge amount of practice to consistently deal more damage than stock, while the scorch shot just requires aiming a super fast projectile at a player.
In my opinion, I think both are also good vs bots. The better weapon would be the scorch shot tho, because one, you can hit them twice if they are standing still. Two you don’t have to time the detonation. To conclude, I think more people should use scorch shot versus bots as I feel it is very underrated in the matchup.
Scorch Shot is the definition of a crutch. Makes you worse but is easier to use. Detonator wins no contest. When combined with a primary you can do all kinds of flank plays the Scorch Shot doesn't allow because its jumps just can't position you for them.
personally i dont have a problem with scorch but i never heard people say its op i only heard them say its annoying and i agree with that it was the same thing with the sandmann it was not op at all in my opinion but i sure was annoying af to not be able to move( thats why it was nerfed btw not because it was op). i think you really try to sell that people say its op when they really say its annoying.
No, people definitely say it's OP. Zesty made a video basically saying that and now everyone and their mother won't shut up about how the scorch shot is OP and broken or whatever. Vorobey even made a poll a few hours ago, people were spouting the same shit about it being OP in the comments. Like,,, have they even played with the weapon before?? Do they know they what they complain about the scorch, the det can do better?
“The only advantage…” I’d say that the extra damage that the Scorch Shot has is pretty huge (it can one shot light classes with a direct hit and full afterburn, as opposed to the Detonator that only two shots after full afterburn. The bouncing flare that deals mini-crit damage is a massive boost to damage over the Detonator. I absolutely love the Det, but have to admit that unfortunately the SS deals significantly more damage.
@@GogiRegion only works on targets standing still, or heavies. Try hitting bots on tr_walkway with scorch, it doesn't work when they're moving. Ah, also if they're trapped with a wall behind them, then yeah they'll get hit So the scorch's extra damage is inconsistent and the det is easier to hit overall, leading to more damage. Not to mention the det jump, a very useful escape/engage tool
@@GogiRegion That would be true, if the bouncing flare were to even connect in the first place. Unless their back is against the wall and they aren't moving, most of the time, it won't hit. Plus, if you're harassing someone from far away, the natural solution would be to spam them with multiple flares, no? So for me, the bouncing flare is really only going to be useful against other enemies who aren't aware of you, or if you are very close to them (The effective range for pyro anyway) with a weird combo like using the bouncing flare to reignite someone after being put out by the axetinguisher, for example.
Started with the scorch, then moved to the detonator, now I’m learning combo pyro mechanics with the flare gun. Scorch is still my love. Idk why but it feels much more powerful. And the bitching from the enemy team! Oh yes! I’ve never gotten that much hatred from the foes. Never!
Keep in mind at close range it super easy to land the knockback, plus it drop on the floor and EXPLODE which mean it super easy to make a DOUBLE scorch damage, perfect combos with Degreaser
Scorch shot is just annoying mainly because I get spammed by it and the after burn and plus the projectle bounces too and also most detonator players dont spam it they use it for movement
realistically, the flare gun is for when your target is out of flamethrower ranger you shoot a flare and it does mini-crits or crits on contact, which is why the answer is clearly the regular flare gun
I’ve grown a love for the detonator, but there is one thing I will always prefer the scorchshot more on and that’s lighting up sentry nests. It takes less shots with the scorchshot to take down a sentry and it can take out the engineer repairing it faster as well.
There's also the thing where you need to keep the detonator equipped to detonate it, whereas the scorch shot explodes no matter what, so scorch is a liiil bit more spammable in a non experiment situation where you use your other weapons as well. (I've actually noticed this when using both say for example when fighting a soldier and i wanna reflect his rockets and shoot flares in-between, i can't explode the det ones cuz I've already switched to my primary to reflect). Maybe detonator is more consistent for spamming, but the main enraging thing for me is the obvious: one has spent time learning the travel speed, explosion range and stuff and the other is most of the time mindlessly spamming.
I wonder if people saw the scorch shot as OP when jungle inferno nerfed the flamethrowers flames. because now the scorch shot can hit players with full after burn way easier then the flamethrower itself. although, you should take that with a grain of salt since I'm only guessing and, as vorobey says, it's most likely band wagoning.
I have a feeling that scortch shot is gonna be better on koh or control point maps. But from the way this video went I am sure that the detonator woul also be just as good if not better. Nice video good info
You can get more jump height from Detonator than from Scorch Shot, and Det can also hit people behind cover if you time the detonation on the projectile just right. However, Scorch is a pretty much jack of all trades weapon. You can jump, hit people behind cover if you aim at the ground, spam chokes, and juggle people with it.
ive never been annoyed at a pyro using the scorch shot if anything im more annoyed by pyros that airblast all ur projectiles than anything else to me the scorch shot is just a mild inconvenience
They're quite situational. Detonator is far better when you have a lot of vertical angles to deal with, so you can make jumps or deny jumping classes. Scorch shot is great for places with a lot of choke points, but those are usually pretty bad maps so
As a Pyro Main I hate the Scorch Shot because it takes alot less skill than flare gun aiming or deto- jumping and still well (they do better ofc but still Scorch Shot does way more than it should) But the weapon is NOT OP. Just annoying and kind of a crutch
The point of Scorch Shot oneshotting light classes has always been a stupid one imo. In order for the scorch shot to oneshot a light class, you need to hit them with the double bounce, something that only works if the player is AFK or something. I have seen myself that even Heavy can easily escape the Scorch Shot’s double hit. And like even when I do get it in a blue moon, the “oneshot” involves afterburn which means they can easily heal and it’s simply better to just shoot them again. If you managed to get a double hit and can hit them again just shoot them again so they die faster.
Forgot to mention scorch shot's sticky removal. You can do exactly the same with detonator - just explode the flare next to stickies :)
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Yooo, good evening, Vorobey. Hope you're having a good day
@@mishavuimo5753 You too mate!
Да ты просто умеешь играть с детонатором)))
We gonna have a new weapons update and players will still be using the same META loadout
HiGPS also did this weird switch claim it was OP. Initially on release the Scorch was underwhelming (2012), then around Gun Mettle (2015) he deemed a decent side grade, now after JI (2017+) in his developing of BalanceMod, it OP???
I been using the Scorch Shot way before it became popular, so to see the hate come out of nowhere after JI was one of wildest thing I witnessed. I frankly like using all flare guns, because they all have their use. Don’t get me wrong I know the Scorch Shot can be annoying, but to claim that it OP requires mental gymnastics and willful ignorance.
However I will debate you on the Sniper claim since the devs also had some issues with the stock Sniper Rifle being so powerful for “experienced players” in development. Evidence being the Dev Commentary & Blog post, and the design of other sniper unlocks
6:55 Engie casually trying to break his scroll wheel
or he is trying to find out how many commands you can send to that server without being kicked
i did that as soon as i found out about that
wdym? hes summoning the vagineer
@@festiveobeliskus “hurrrrrrrr…”
then picks spy
or he found out the quick-switch button
step 1 say "the scorch shot is perfectly balanced"
step 2 *survive*
step 1. go to twitter
step 2. survive
It's not hard to survive. Only if It's a direct hit combined with it hitting the ground next to you. The Scorch Shot is more annoying than anything.
@@andyfriederichsen you’re missing the joke here. If you say scorch shot is balanced, people are gonna come after you because of your unpopular opinion.
@@peterni2234 Oh. I thought you meant in-game. Okay, I get it now. Whoops.
its not even that op. its not guaranteed to hit twice. in fact is rarely ever bounces and hits twice.
How to counter both : Mannmeltter
Free crits ,no ammo required
Yes
*spam intensifies*
The true man's flare gun
based
use manmelter and unleash your holy fury
their sins will crawl down their friends’ backs
this guy can topscore with everything in the game possible
I want him to see use rocket jumper gunboats and disciplinary action
I know right
Let's see what he can do with a rescue ranger
Force-A-Nature + Fan-O-War
To be fair, the people he fought seemed like they didnt at all know how to kill a pyro
**Kills friendlies**
*Vorobey:* - You know, I am some kind of scientist myself.
*science man
*you know, I am something of a scientist myself
I prefer detonator personally. Since you detonate it in the air, its aoe is a sphere rather than a dome. So it has literally twice the vertical aoe.
Also, you can delay the detonation if the enemy moves away from you, or detonate earlier if they run towards you, whereas scorch shot doesn't allow any adjustment after it's fired.
Finally, the jumps are better.
Not only, you can detonate it in the air, so you can hit an enemy from the side by detonating the flare at the right time, while with the Scorch Shot you have to aim to the ground.
@@LawreAnimations Yeah, I think it's especially relevant if you can shoot over the top of the cover an enemy is behind. Hitting the ground next to it might not reach. An example is the rocks on upward 2nd. Edit: or when the enemy has the high ground, such as the roof on badwater 2nd.
I’ve seen people complaining about the Scorch Shot for years, even before that certain youtuber’s video. The sniper thing is just a result of the bot crisis but to be perfectly fair when you have one high damage class based on long range in a game where everything else is primarily short range it…uhhh…you can figure it out.
I take pleasure in knowing sniper will never be nerfed, popular public opinion isn't always the correct opinion and in this case it isn't.
@@Panzerram respect
@@Panzerram sniper is honestly overpowered if you have skill, but he shouldnt be nerfed, he may be ridiculous but that doesnt mean he should be changed
i may have an unhealthy hatred against snipers but even i can understand theres not really anything wrong about it
@@blehh_mae are you a printer? because you're speaking fax
@@blehh_mae the only counter (in all situations) for a good sniper is a spy or a better sniper but the spy cannot always do his job as he has too many factors against him (random crits, the sniper's unlockable weapons, an engineer nearby sniper, etc) so the only consistent counter for a sniper is another sniper ...
sorry but playing against a sniper god is boring. you can hit a meatshot to that demo knight that is dominating your team, you can hit three pipes to that heavy that is being healed by a doctor the whole game but you cannot do anything to that sniper who is miles away
I think the main thing that separates these two weapons is the stun mechanic that the scorch shot has. Stun mechanics already suck as is, but giving it to such a spammable weapon really is terrible design.
Edit: it is not hard to stun people at all like the loose cannon is.
Down choke points, the loose cannon is quite spammable, but it only knocks people back. If you want to stun them, you’ll have to aim and charge it a little to get double donks.
@@La-Machina, not really, loose canon is not that hard to use.
@@slayarch2217 it is really not THAT hard to use, but it definitely harder than scorch shot, it is a PRIMARY and it have less stunning potential. Oh, and it doesn't ignite you, and, just to know, it's damage output is comparable to the scorch shot's damage over time. It is probably spammable, but loose cannon is way more balanced.
@@jumpinghunter9152, it has more stunning potensial, donks launch you can 1 shot light classes.
And so what if it does damage over time, all fire based weapons do. Did you even watch the video?
The real problem with it is it requires way too little skill to use it properly. Simply it makes you feel unfair to fight against.
Fire & forget style weapon with large explosion radius, combined with dot damage and knockback, arguably the 2 most annoying weapon stats to play against.
You need a skill to time the explosion correctly when you're using the detonator. But with scorch, it's pretty much impossible to miss when you have the high ground.
There is a reason why many people agree that something's annoying. Not because someone made a video about it or not, just because it actually is.
Of course, there are players who never stop bitching about it in-game. But that only means that they're being toxic, doesn't prove something is broken or not.
I liked the vid, but I'm pretty sure that "better" does not mean more annoying, nor "worse" does mean less annoying.
Refer to my comment
So you're saying the scorch shot is exactly like the rocket launcher?
Rocket's speed: 1100 hammer units per sec, Flare's speed: 2000 hammer units per sec. Rocket has damage falloff meantime the flare isn't, and scorch has dot damage meantime the rocket isn't.
Don't you guys think It's lame to bring a completely different weapon to defend it?
@Mackenzie Crowe Because it gives you a predictable amount of knockback not like stunlock, has no dot damage feature, and is much slower than the flare means much easier to deal with. In close range sure rocket is much more devastating, but wasn't we talking about how annoying the scorch long-range spam is? In that case, you're trying to compare 24 damage singular splash (potential 48 only if you're dumb enough to walk into the rocket) to 20 + 60~80 potential dot damage. Then it's clear why rocket long-range spam isn't hated. Predictable, not devastatingly powerful, not that stressful.
ppl rage when they die by a pyro because they feel it is unfair that pyro doesn't even have to aim, the same thing for scorch shot. That just the way pyro works
"Did i ever tell you the definition of insanity?!"
400hrs pyro main here
Detonators: require timing your det to succeed igniting your target/multiple targets without needing a surface which make it excellent to counter flying/high mobility class
Scorch shot: detonate in direct hit or when hitting a surface (wall/ground) with a blast radiuses that is a bit smaller than stock rocket this weapon will only punish less mobility class(poor snipers) but if your target have the high ground and no wall is right next to them then Ur scorch shot is just a flare gun that deal less damage and don't crit on burning target
it also hits you twice and can light big groups of enemies on fire in a chokepoint and does full afterburn
@@preston_gaming6203 detnator/flare/scorch have the same afterburn time and damage that is 60 DMG and ramp that with the gun direct damage for example the flare deal 30 but scorch deal more if the target stand still( when it hit the ground after a direct hit) which make a 100/120 hp class die if they don't have a heal source or anything that help
the scorch shot has so many stats packed into one weapon that it invalidates the other flare guns. if you get hit by a scorch shot flare that bounces and hits you twice and minicrits as a light class, you die of afterburn from one click of the m1 button. and you can spam it to kill them even faster. and you actually have to have aim to use the other flare guns. not to mention the hitstun that comes into play more than you would think it does
@@preston_gaming6203 Lol this comment is ridiculous. The Scorch shot is honestly not that bad when compared to the Detonator.
I feel like Pyro shouldn't really have an explosion AOE Secondary though. Kind of defeats the purpose of having to choose between a Shotgun and Flare Gun imo.
Why get a shotgun when you can do more damage with the Scorchshot or Detonator and get AOE? Why use a normal Flare Gun for its range when the Scorchshot and Detonator have the same range and are much harder to miss?
I always thought the purpose of the Flare Gun was to give the Pyro a situational long ranged option since he is supposed to be an up close and personal class. With the Scorchshot and Detonator Pyro actually becomes better than Soldier. He's better up close and at a distance. Plus he's faster on foot.
@@mee091000 The Shotgun on pyro is for close range high BURST damage, and finishing off enemies.
The Detonator/Scorch has long range AOE pester damage, and Mobility.
The Flare Gun is good at both, without the mobility and ease of use.
Ye, both are really good but everyone knows that the stock flare gun is pure god tier stuff
I recently tried the "puff 'n sting" combo.
I'm terrible at it.
@@creeperizak8971 What!?
Who the hell are you? Some kind of Soldier main?
Nah, its okey actually, its very difficilt to master the Puff'n Sting art
area denial is better with detonator and scorch shot which is kinda important in hl matches
flaregun is still my second fav tho after pre nerf reserve shooter
@@takemapants as a guy who plays pyro rather well, I'd like to know what this Puff'n sting is.
@@pyrothefiredemon “puff” a little bit of fire onto someone with flamethrower, airblast them away, then “sting” them with the flare gun
Honestly the the op thing about the scorch shot is it's hidden stat to piss people off. Some are playing worse due to tunneling you, snipers often sacrifice their secondary in favor of the darwins and I've even seen kids ragequit cuz of that shit. People don't tend to complain about the detonator that much so it's an ez s>d for me. ;)
Edit: I'm surprised. I expected way more salt in this vid.
once again as you discribe it seems to be annoying not op
@@cleander3645Op through annoyance.
I have the darwin's on constantly, but I almost never see scorch shots coming my way. But god when I get hit by one it sure is bliss, fire literally stops you from playing sniper for however long it's on you
@@omnipresentsnowflake4698 no thats not true if you are a good snier it doesnt bother you at all you just have to predict the dmg ticks
If a scorch shot pyro is actually getting under my skin it can usually be remedied by playing support focused pyro or vaccinator medic.
6:55
don't mind the engie he's just practicing his magic.
I remember sniper being talked about YEARS ago. He's always been a point of contention in the community it's just with the bot crisis we got our collective noses rubbed into the carpet so to speak.
Scorch shot was/is a fad though. I never heard shit about it back when.
The detonator seems to be the kind of weapon that would come out if you would overwork the scorchshot
flare gun
To me it seems the opposite, Scorch Shot has all those weird over-engineered mechanics while Detonator is basically a Flare Gun that you can detonate midair.
The detonators does area damage but isn’t overboard like the scorch shot is. The scorch is the ultimate secondary, with damage, knock back, jumping, and sticky destroying. Overpowered isn’t the same as annoying but it might be both.
The detonator and the scorch have the SAME area of effect for their splash damage - 2.1m, about the size of an iron bomber pipe.
The det also destroys stickies, det jumping is way better than scorch jumping and can be used offensively to chase as well as to flank, does slightly more damage than scorch, and is just overall more consistent at setting things on fire with manual detonation.
You can hit anything from any angle with the det, plus u can always aim for directs and hit m2 when u miss. For the scorch, you have to commit to trying to hit the direct for a double bounce and risk missing, or go for a safe splash damage shot.
And if you're always going for a splash damage shot, then the det does slightly more damage and just as much afterburn in that regard. The det and scorch shot are pretty much equals imo
@@Junya01 the only thing the det has on the scorch is jumping. The scorch is much easier to hit and way better at clearing stickies. You don’t have to “commit” to anything with the scorch shot. You just need to aim at a crowd and someone will get hit by the bouncing grenade. It does too much damage too quickly. The detonator needs to be aimed and timed.
@@Junya01 honestly the only bad thing i see is the stun stunning is never a good mechanic in my opinion cause it disrupts the gameflow and well its annoying to not be able to play even if ts only for second (thats why sandman was nerfed) being stunned and getting fire dmg uff thats a recipe for disaster
det did more DPS WTF
@@joekhames4161 no the fuck it doesnt
Scorchshot has the ability to hit the same enemy twice, and knockback. I'm pretty sure those two things make it alot more annoying
What mostly is annoying is that it has splash damage so you just fire at the floor but with detonator you use more skill by timing the shot and it is easier to dodge at least for me because I can predict them but scorch shot ? People who use it just use 0 braincells, they just always shoot it at the floor, dont aim and spam it 10x more and also it has such a freaking long burning time
@@mordeczkapl77 all flare guns have the max 8 seconds of burn time
@@kuunt6065 probably, but one time it felt for me like I was burning for eternity and i lost half of my health with one shot and it didn't bounce of me so it didn't hit me again
@@mordeczkapl77 I mean, if you can dodge detonator shots, you can dodge scorch shots
The main difference between detonator and scorch is that detonator gives more control with airburst timing, while scorch shot relies on surfaces (such as walls, floors, and idiotic teammates). If you can avoid getting hit by the detonator’s airburst, you must also be positioned to avoid the scorch shot’s blast radius.
Also, a single flare from the scorch shot will do a maximum of 60 afterburn damage over 7.5 seconds, which is the same as that of all other flare guns. A flare will always have the potential to do more than half the health of a light class, especially if you just let it burn “for eternity”.
@@TheOneWhoHasABadName the differance is that people with detonators have to time the shot but scorch shot has splash damage and it is annoying as hell, I would love to dodge demoman's explosives, then soldier's rockets
Vorobey, I have been playing TF2 since 2007. Sniper has always been fucking annoying and nobody but the people playing the character influences that opinion. I can tell you these opinions have not been influenced by a youtuber in the last two years.
I came for damage, i left with the forgotten philosophy of equal, unalienable & understandable pains for all gamers.
Yeah. Sniper just plain sucks, honestly. He wasn't designed for such high skill players, so good Snipers are complete hell to play against.
It’s actually dumb. I started playing the game in only 2015 and I’ve been complaining about them since then - limitless skill cap is bad design, the other characters can’t compete. I don’t even enjoy playing sniper, and to be honest, despite the aim requirement he’s not engaging to play or particularly difficult. There’s no risk to picking him or going for picks
@@bezellik Its kinda like street fighter third strike where the skill gap is so high even decent vs a experienced player is a stomp. A good player gets to parry all your attacks and get a free combo into super. Like they did not account for parry monsters that exist on fightcade. Both are loved by the community and will mercilessly stomp you for the first 500 hours.
TF2 players have always been complaining about something. Fucking bots intensified the "sniper op" bullshit
It's like 7 years ago, STAR_ hated mini sentries and everybody hated mini sentries :)
While that is true, they have been nerfed twice(?) since then, and I feel like the Gunslinger is still one of Engineers best weapons today. The fact that they deployed at full health, back then, was incredibly powerful.
@@Mutaburasaurus them deploying at full health was fine. Them HEALING to full as they constructed after starting full to begin, and building so fast without wrenching was ludicrous
@@Skullhawk13 Oh, right. The feature that took Valve years to fix, and they then said had been a bug.
I play on 2fort alot (the only place i play actually)
When engies start setting up annoying sewer nest and they get out of hand... The Scorchy is my go-to weapon to counter-annoy them. Because when you can't beat them, annoy them back.
Skill. Scorch Shot's had a comparatively lower skill range, from floor to ceiling, than the Detonator's because you use the exact same skill you would for the normal Flare Gun to do almost the same thing. Detonator is unquestionably better but requires a different learnable skill, timing the detonation, as its skill floor, just to use the weapon effectively. You can, also, try to aim between or above a group of enemies to ignite them, but you still need to detonate at the right time, else only detonate one person with the direct hit or just miss entirely, which means its skill ceiling is already climbing much higher. Detonator even tests your decision making skills, in respect to igniting groups, and you have to time your blast or else your decisive strike to ignite one half a group instead of another is less effective or outright worthless. The Scorch Shot simply needs to be aimed and lead, just like the Flare Gun, for the same boons as the Detonator, namely comparable damage, and even alternative ones, such as leaving Snipers at melee death range or outright killing them if they can't find health by popping them up to prevent them from scoping and THEN causing them to flinch with the full-time afterburn effect (assuming they're not wearing the modern Darwin's Danger Shield or the Cozy Camper and sitting at full charge from hardscoping you) after getting hit by the flare twice since they couldn't move or air strafe away the bouncing flare, which some may consider more favorable situationally. There's not as much decision making, if any, along with the inability to test how well you can time the blast: it's just point at a group of enemies, fire, and watch the unfortunate victims you happened to click in the general direction of burn with full Afterburn, and a little more, after sustaining two explosive hits where one was a Mini-Crit. Issue isn't that the Scorch Shot is more egregiously more powerful than its contemporaries, but that it's as powerful with different benefits and utilities without needing any alternative skills (or having relevant trade-offs in stats, but I wasn't arguing that).
Rambling:
People can have fun whichever way they want. Detonator is better. I don't play Pyro with either. I use Shotgun. And I have seen a few complain about the Loose Cannon, but it's weird. Shoot the ball, and the enemy's sent flying back at high speeds, taking them out of the fight even if you didn't kill them. I don't know if it's more annyoing to fight against that playstyle than the Scorch Shot onto the objective or the spawn door tactic is, because Pyro sill has a primary that's potentially loaded with Crits or the ability to invalidate two power classes, a few more difficult-to-counter supporters, and check Demoknight entirely, the most popular sub-class of Demoman, who already gets shut-down by a Pyro who can right click, and never do I see any Demos intentionally trying to miss their cannonball timings just to knock people away. Can we say that Pyro's fundamentally flawed and the Pyro Update didn't do enough to fix him? Heavy's in need of that update, too, already, to rework him. Damage resistance doesn't feel like it's the way to go for his alternative primaries, at least to me. Valve's a big company, why does it take so long for these kinds of updates?
Edit: Some stuff in my ramble. Nothing that changes the message
Also, why aren't Dislikes displayed? I want to see the ratio. If you, reader, dislike, please say "dislike." Thank you for your cooperation
The Detonator just sold me over the Squirt Shot for its mobility, able to jump up the Hole in 2Fort that drops to the double entrance, really good to flank Sentries in the Stairs Area and to surprise the Folks, not expecting a Pyro coming from there.
*runs into a 3 players*
WTF?? 3V1!!! ahahahah unfair lololol
7:04 bro that engineer just used the transformation jutsu
3:12 people used to shit on the scorch shot because it didn’t mini crit so it was a straight downgrade to everything
Now that's funny
A weapon with a shit design can't be fixed by stat changes. The scorch shot is a detonator with a lower skill requirement. The weapon needs a complete resign.
The bit about the youtuber parroting is pretty true, Uncle Dane did make a video about that himself "Stop Worshipping TH-camrs", despite him also 'kinda' jumping on the "nerf sniper" bandwagon, mentioning how the tf2 dev team would actually consider maybe not even having sniper in the game at all, either that was their way of joking or they were actually serious. The Tf2 blogs clearly explain how they work around Sniper but yeah.. It's whatever. Just doesn't deserve the hate tbh.
I love using the scorch shot and the detonator. Personally it’s my favorite part of playing pyro. It was great to see a whole video dedicated to them. I hate that it’s been demonized in the community, although I haven’t been called out in game. But then again I hardly play pyro anyways
Scorch shot has -33% dmg
Detonator has -25% dmg
Scorch shot can hit people twice on direct hit, and has the luxury of splash afterburn
While detonator can explode mid-air anywhere near enemies - it just needs proper timing
Both weapons mini crit vs burning players
It's a pretty good conclusion that the weapon that deals more damage deals.. more damage
Detonator has utility with the jumps tho
@@I_Hate_Monkeys_69 so? Doesnt change what I said
I'm a pyro main here and the main reason why I perfer the detonator is the detonator has a higher skill floor while the scorch has a lower skill floor like if someone with 10 hour on pyro has both weapon you can see the pyro struggling with the det but is doing very well with the scorch but if it's a god pyro...then yea there damage is identical
Edit:I also relise that a big difference between the 2 is one u have to monitor and time where the others u can poke your head out for a sec and quickly fire it get behind cover and forget it not to mention (this only applies to light classes) with the dentonater u needs to hit the player twice to kill (if they don't heal) where as the scorch shot u need one direct hit (if the bouncing flare falls to the floor and mini CrItS) to kill a player (if they don't heal) combine that with the bouncing flare stun which can be...well trouble some even with the normal flare u need these 3 thing to kill a light class 1 u needed to already ignite them to crit them 2 u need to hit them with 2 direct flare to kill (which SOMETIMES u need 1 direct scorch shot flare to kill even if u miss it it SOMETIMES can ignite the person u missed) and finally 3 if there not already ignite from another pyro, cowmangler soilder, hou long heater heavy,
So that's the main reason I hate the scorch shot it's not because of getting hit by it all the time it's the fact that with one shot that you can get alot of value from even if you were using another flare u could miss out on that flare value so plz tell me if u agree or disagree with my point here I don't mind criticism just as long as it's not very harsh
I never thought scorch shot was OP, just annoying to fight against sometimes lol.
But any weapons in TF2 can be fun and that's what matters is just making the game fun.
Great video and very interesting find!
in TFC, something like the scorch shot was the pyro's default weapon. The most threatening thing it did was cover your eyes in non-transparent flame sprites, their right click would quickswap to scorch shot instead of airblasting.
The Incendiary Launcher also was able to damage people through thin walls.
I dont think youtubers start bandwagons..
I think they just awaken what we've all considered complaining about.. like sniper was always a groan-inducing part of the game but nobody could really put it into words before a youtuber properly pointed out the source of frustration.
same with scorch.
sure theres still some bits of herd mentality that with enough people hating, for example, sniper, they start forgetting to blame their own mistakes.
one of my medic main friends completely stopped blaming his own mistakes and just blames "the big bad OP quickscope" while completely forgetting that he was standing in one of the biggest sniper sightlines on upward.
Sniper is the only class in the game that can easily kill 4 of the 9 classes from any distance in the map just by shooting their finger with a charged shot. Sniper shouldn't deal 150 DMG in a charged bodyshot. Do you think it's fair for the Sniper to kill the Medic just by shooting their feet with a charged shot?
@@Anderson-kg5ex full charge body shot is fine, you sacrifice spacial awareness and a good amount of time +mobility to kill 1 guy that you may even miss, quickscoping is the part most people despise.
I like to use the detonators manual detonation to check if enemies are hiding around corners before I reach them
"I have a Pretty big collection Of *MUSTACHE* cracked me up for some reason
Shifted off the Scorch Shot to practice aim with the Flare Gun, but am now thinking the Detonator might be the way to go. Thanks for the video!
Det is far more fun IMO. Especially because not only is timing flares fun, but it’s also really fun to be able to pseudo-rocket jump with it. It’s definitely the most fun Pyro secondary in my opinion.
The main problem of this research is the fact that Voro compared effectiveness of those weapons, but people often complaining about inability of playing against a weapon and have at least some fun and free choice of tactics, not about effectiveness of gun in enemy's hands. As for the loose cannon, first - it's a PRIMARY, second - it doesn't ignite you, third - it have less stunning potential than scorch shot, and fourth - it have comparable damage output with scorch shot's one. And comparable means that loose cannon deal 131 ONLY when calculated and timed CLOSE range shot lands on enemy, other than that - around 50 damage maximum. Scorch Shot though deals full afterburn of 80 damage EVEN WITHOUT A DIRECT HIT. The direct hit though boosting that damage to somewhere around ≈40 of regular and minicrit flare direct damage + 80 of afterburn = 120 damage. For seconary. AT ANY RANGE. Oh, and loose cannon does not destroy stickies! So loose cannon, apparently, have less power than scorch shot, even if we keep in mind the one shot possibility.
21:03 spooky t-posing shadow.
I just like using the scorchy the same way I use the stock flare gun.
(Just for those funny reactions)
also, haha schorchy go brr, and sniper health go boo
Edit: Quick tip, if you use scorch shot and your target is in front of a wall(preferably sticking to it) aim for the target's head, because the bouncing flare will(most of the time) hit the wall instead of hitting the ground.
And if your target is nowhere near a wall, aim for their feet(same reason as when your target is infront of a wall).
Edit 2: You can kill light classes with 1 shot from the scorchy(Direct hit with bouncing flare ofc).
I don’t hate the scorchshot because a TH-camr told me to, I hate it because of how distracting and easy it is to use against groups of people who are currently dealing with the rest of my team. Plus the knockback is just overkill to classes that already have limited mobility, and can’t hit long range targets with their weapons.
Sidenote: The fact that you die faster from the Detonator is exactly why people don’t complain about it. It’s way less annoying to quickly die from a flare then it is to be stuck against a wall and wait for afterburner to kill you.
The knockback part only applies to heavy, everyone else can step out of the second bounce before it hits the ground. And if you're getting knockbacked while burning, then you have no chance of getting hit by the second bounce unless you're stuck by a wall.
Also, getting hit by the second bounce as a player next to the person who got hit first means you aren't paying attention enough. The second bounce is reactable to step away from, that's what I always do. The only times I get hit by someone else's second bounce is when I'm not paying attention but even then, it's not hard to get extinguished or get health somewhere
To answer 2:06 the scorch shot launches further when enemies are on fire
25:47 i do that voice when i need to sound unharmful
Honestly I think people would start hating the scorch shot if it didin't stunlock, remove that and you'd be able to keep the "double donk" feature.
I remember a few months back a youtuber I liked talked about the short circuit like it was "really overpowered" and I tried it and to my suprise, it wasn't overpowered because:
1. It's very slow to switch to and fire.
2. It can only shoot 3 times before you're screwed
and 3. With the right timing a soldier and demo can still totally cuck a engie with it.
It may still have flaws like not being able to see through it but that's it.
Also weapons vary effectiveness depending on the user and their "inner playstyle" and might make it so for example someone wrecks house with detonator but sucks with scorch shot, same the otherway.
I still agree that people should make their own opinions and not be "sheep" for youtubers but I still really dislike that just because a youtuber had that opinion that means that someone who also has that opinion is just a mindless sheep.
Kind regards to Vorobey, you're an amazing youtuber and I respect your opinions.
I mostly agree, but I don’t think it should be called a “double donk” since no timing is involved (unlike the detonator). I think removing the stunlock & projectile bounce would be the best fit
for the weapon since, as it is, it just seems too OP (my opinion, not a yters)
Most people who call the short circuit op only call it op when the engi has his ass firmly planted on the cart. I think it’s fine, but the people who call it op usually refer to the payload cart.
I feel like the explosion shouldn't set people on fire, simply mini crit them and SOMETIMES "double donk" them as you call it
When there is 1 single engi on the cart pretty much all projectile classes are denied, which is an massive problem when the best ubered classes to deal with an push are Soldier and Demo (Pyro for Nests).
And before u comment about Pyro Airblast, that one you can bait with an shotgun, and requires alot more skill than just spamming on the corridor with no need for timings.
And it's very boring to deal, same as Snipers as "Respect the Sight-line" while the entire objective is in the sight-line.
you can perflectly do the damage per minute thing by only playing on maps with timers and doing the math in editing
I think the idea is that with scorch shot you can throw your enemies in the air while with the detonator you can throw yourself in the air if that makes sense
It feels like they added WAY too much flare gun ideas into one, you can hit people twice, the flare explodes on contact with surface, it deals knockback which increases on burning players, and it still mini crits ignited enemies
7:45 nice dodge dud
That's cool but what about 1000x edition?
Basically sets the server on fire, and scorching the earth
In my opinion I think that about what youtubers say everyone jumps on the train.
Is that they do sometimes make a point I never thought off and actually makes sense in a way, the reason why maybe I find the weapon or class so annoying but I can't put it to words.
the thing is, the scorch shot has the increased explosion and is in general, more spammable and easy to use for noobs who cant time shit.
the detonator on the other hand is also spammable but much more than the scorch shot in the hands of a skilled player because if you can aim and can time shit instead of relying on a bullshit explosion, you can nail your shots
the scorch shot has a higher skill floor and a lower skill cieling whilst the detonator has a lower skill floor and a higher skill cieling
Hearing the spamming sound of these weapons over and over until the end of this video is an absolute nightmare x)
Detonator spam is the sound my sleep paralysis demon makes
6:55 trying make new weapon:
6:55 engi plays the rubik's cube
I don’t like the method for these tests, I feel what makes the scorch shot so good isn’t the amount of damage it does, it’s the fact that it distance stalls and can hit multiple times per shot. It destroying stickies also gives it more utility, making it by far the best secondary flare, but calling it overpowered is too much imo. I think it should be changed because it’s not fun to play against and doesn’t feel fair because it’s boarderline impossible to dodge in many situations and the multi hits are just frustrating. The solution I think is to make it do more damage but only give afterburn splash on direct hits; this would reward direct hits more than the current design while also focusing it much less on mindless spam and more so on utility and teamwork.
It can hit twice but the detonator still dealt more damage as it can consistenly hit multiple people, just requires more aim. The detonator can also destroy stickies. And dont forget the extra mobility which comes in very handy is pyro. You can do some crazy jumps with it. Its also less annoying to fight against. But I gotta agree, more testing needs to be done, but I honestly think the scorch is overrated and not better or worse than the detonator.
@@titicaca. scorch shot also destroys stickies though. And also sets multiple people on fire. Scorch shot's fire and forget ability allows you to focus on dodging or other movements without paying attention to tracking your shots and time to detonate. Sure it deals more damage but not significant enough to make it more useful than SS's stun. Detonator is most useful for flanking pyros due to its jumps.
i wouldn't mind the direct hits nerf. i always go for that anyway, and i'm pretty good at them. in fact, the entire reason i use scorchshots is because of the knockback direct hits have.
I think it should split into two weapons. Right now, it does way too many things at once.
One part should embrace its incendiary grenade launcher identity: greatly reduce fire rate (or even make it a cooldown-based weapon) and projectile speed, remove direct damage on hit, in exchange for the ability to fire grenades that leave behind puddles of lava after rolling for a bit (on direct hit, it makes a puddle immediately). Lava lingers around for some time and burns enemies that step on it.
The other part can be rebranded for utility, with good effects like fixed-arc knockback and sticky destruction, in exchange for greatly reduced damage
Detonator does 10% more damage than the Scorch-Shot so that definitely helps. I think the afterburn is the same, but not sure.
you've quickly become my favorite tf2 youtuber, keep up the good work man
I agree that it seems to be everyone started hating the Scorchshot out of nowhere because bigger TH-camrs made videos about it.
However, personally I don't really think the problem is that the Scorch Shot does too much damage, but rather that it is incredibly annoying to play against. You can literally one-shot light classes with the Scorchshot if they happen to be far enough from healing sources because It can hit you twice with the same projectile (in part because of the stunlock), effectively dealing double damage with 1 flare. It's not fun to play against. DPS isn't the issue, but burst damage.
It takes no effort to hit people with and does too many things at once for no reason:
It damages you with the initial hit.
It sets you ablaze for full afterburn, regardless if you were directly hit or just caught in the (stock rocket sized) splash.
It Stuns you after being hit, making a secondary hit more likely.
It can destroy Stickies.
You can Flare Jump with it.
And on top of that does mini-crits on burning targets, making some of the above points even worse.
On the other hand, the Detonator:
Hits you.
Does mini-crits on burning targets (but that can't be done in 1 shot, unlike the Scorchshot)
To make use of the AOE you have to time your detonation, requiring some form of game sense or effort from the pyro.
Can Flare Jump
(I might have stolen some of the points from Dane's video or something, idk. but I agree with those viewpoints)
I'm not saying brainless spam weapons are bad or the wrong way to play the game. However, the Scorchshot just simply does too many things well enough to be annoying.
Detonator can also destroy stickies.
Detonator also applies full after burn on splash hit.
Detonator has superior flare jump height.
I have no idea where you're getting the idea that scorch shot can one-shot light classes - even assuming two ticks of afterburn between the two hits, you're still only getting 114, not the 125 you need.
I have literally done the testing.
It "oneshots" because you get hit twice by the same projectile, causing the afterburn to reset, amounting to 126 damage.
@@Hombzy I actually did testing too now, and it appears the afterburn is bugged. It should be *resetting* the duration on the second hit, but it's actually lasting much longer. A target hit with both continues to burn even after a target hit with splash goes out.
Scorch Shots problem imo is that for the Detonator you need to be focused on the timing. With the Scorch Shot however, you dont even need to do anything.
Hey, kinda like paying soldier/demo
It hurts to see the detonator not used for flanking and purely used to attack
Now I know the detonator might be the better overall choice for phlog, since it give more mobility and dmg.
I still have plans with the scrotch shot though, mainly if go for double axtinguister crits.
players aren't used to pyro being able to do splash damage detonator pretty much gives pyro a single shot stickybomb launcher
24:14 Looks like people still don't know that this game is called *Team* Fortress 2 for a reason. Besides, it's your own fault if you end up in such circumstances where you get ganged up by multiple players.
Btw, true chads counter spamming pyro by going pyro themselves and equpping manmelter.
6:54 noice
the detonator is stupidly fun, thanks
doing this comparing loose canon with the grenade launcher would be awesome
28:45 It isn’t because they can do more damage than stock, we complain about scorch shot because it gives more damage for less skill. Loose cannon requires a huge amount of practice to consistently deal more damage than stock, while the scorch shot just requires aiming a super fast projectile at a player.
In my opinion, I think both are also good vs bots. The better weapon would be the scorch shot tho, because one, you can hit them twice if they are standing still. Two you don’t have to time the detonation. To conclude, I think more people should use scorch shot versus bots as I feel it is very underrated in the matchup.
Peek the bot to fire, take 150/die. Bot doesn’t care about being on fire.
Classic Voro complaining about people complaining
Scorch Shot is the definition of a crutch. Makes you worse but is easier to use. Detonator wins no contest. When combined with a primary you can do all kinds of flank plays the Scorch Shot doesn't allow because its jumps just can't position you for them.
personally i dont have a problem with scorch but i never heard people say its op i only heard them say its annoying and i agree with that it was the same thing with the sandmann it was not op at all in my opinion but i sure was annoying af to not be able to move( thats why it was nerfed btw not because it was op). i think you really try to sell that people say its op when they really say its annoying.
No, people definitely say it's OP. Zesty made a video basically saying that and now everyone and their mother won't shut up about how the scorch shot is OP and broken or whatever.
Vorobey even made a poll a few hours ago, people were spouting the same shit about it being OP in the comments. Like,,, have they even played with the weapon before?? Do they know they what they complain about the scorch, the det can do better?
@@Junya01 The only advantage the scorch shot has over the detonator is it’s knockback, but even then the detonator makes up with movement shenanigans.
“The only advantage…”
I’d say that the extra damage that the Scorch Shot has is pretty huge (it can one shot light classes with a direct hit and full afterburn, as opposed to the Detonator that only two shots after full afterburn. The bouncing flare that deals mini-crit damage is a massive boost to damage over the Detonator. I absolutely love the Det, but have to admit that unfortunately the SS deals significantly more damage.
@@GogiRegion only works on targets standing still, or heavies. Try hitting bots on tr_walkway with scorch, it doesn't work when they're moving. Ah, also if they're trapped with a wall behind them, then yeah they'll get hit
So the scorch's extra damage is inconsistent and the det is easier to hit overall, leading to more damage. Not to mention the det jump, a very useful escape/engage tool
@@GogiRegion That would be true, if the bouncing flare were to even connect in the first place. Unless their back is against the wall and they aren't moving, most of the time, it won't hit. Plus, if you're harassing someone from far away, the natural solution would be to spam them with multiple flares, no?
So for me, the bouncing flare is really only going to be useful against other enemies who aren't aware of you, or if you are very close to them (The effective range for pyro anyway) with a weird combo like using the bouncing flare to reignite someone after being put out by the axetinguisher, for example.
Let the record show I've been complaining about the balance of sniper for at least 4 years thankyouverymuch 😂
A lot of people forget that the manmelter exists and would be able to counter play these weapons pretty well
i always abuse the manmelter whenever i see an enemy pyro equips the scorch. the power you feel when your manmelter has 13 stored crits.
Scorch shout is good at cleaning sticky but it is not op i am a pyro main that i like use short gun more
Shotgun pyro is underrated
Well I’m quite suprised from the results.
Started with the scorch, then moved to the detonator, now I’m learning combo pyro mechanics with the flare gun. Scorch is still my love. Idk why but it feels much more powerful. And the bitching from the enemy team! Oh yes! I’ve never gotten that much hatred from the foes. Never!
Keep in mind at close range it super easy to land the knockback, plus it drop on the floor and EXPLODE which mean it super easy to make a DOUBLE scorch damage, perfect combos with Degreaser
21:33 today a fellow scout was called toxic because of how he played by some salty people XD
Poor scout, he just wanted to play hightower
Scorch shot is just annoying mainly because I get spammed by it and the after burn and plus the projectle bounces too and also most detonator players dont spam it they use it for movement
you summed up the whole argument right here, one more for attacking as the other more of a tool to get around with.
I think stock flares are better, you can put more damage out in faster to singular targets. They're also satisfying as fuck
realistically, the flare gun is for when your target is out of flamethrower ranger you shoot a flare and it does mini-crits or crits on contact, which is why the answer is clearly the regular flare gun
The scorch shot and detonator are for before you get in range, or spamming when going in would be a death sentence.
Haven't mastered the detonator but I do use its flare jump and it's very useful for chasing people or running Away
I’ve grown a love for the detonator, but there is one thing I will always prefer the scorchshot more on and that’s lighting up sentry nests.
It takes less shots with the scorchshot to take down a sentry and it can take out the engineer repairing it faster as well.
I like the noise the detonator makes when you shoot it c:
There's also the thing where you need to keep the detonator equipped to detonate it, whereas the scorch shot explodes no matter what, so scorch is a liiil bit more spammable in a non experiment situation where you use your other weapons as well. (I've actually noticed this when using both say for example when fighting a soldier and i wanna reflect his rockets and shoot flares in-between, i can't explode the det ones cuz I've already switched to my primary to reflect). Maybe detonator is more consistent for spamming, but the main enraging thing for me is the obvious: one has spent time learning the travel speed, explosion range and stuff and the other is most of the time mindlessly spamming.
I wonder if people saw the scorch shot as OP when jungle inferno nerfed the flamethrowers flames. because now the scorch shot can hit players with full after burn way easier then the flamethrower itself.
although, you should take that with a grain of salt since I'm only guessing and, as vorobey says, it's most likely band wagoning.
19 hours after this video went live all I can see now is pyros with scorch shots and detonators. THEY ARE EVERYWHERE!!!!!.
I have a feeling that scortch shot is gonna be better on koh or control point maps. But from the way this video went I am sure that the detonator woul also be just as good if not better. Nice video good info
The schorch shot is a good weapon depending on how the guy plays or if the guy using the scorch shot is good
honestly at 3:29 I thought the pyro was just standing over a dead due burning it lmao, it was a teleporter
dear god. captions say squirt shot
You can get more jump height from Detonator than from Scorch Shot, and Det can also hit people behind cover if you time the detonation on the projectile just right. However, Scorch is a pretty much jack of all trades weapon. You can jump, hit people behind cover if you aim at the ground, spam chokes, and juggle people with it.
The fucking engie at 7:00 😂😂
Spy: here we have a video.
Soldier: Dear god
Spy: There's more.
Soldier: No...
Lmao
ive never been annoyed at a pyro using the scorch shot if anything im more annoyed by pyros that airblast all ur projectiles than anything else to me the scorch shot is just a mild inconvenience
They're quite situational. Detonator is far better when you have a lot of vertical angles to deal with, so you can make jumps or deny jumping classes. Scorch shot is great for places with a lot of choke points, but those are usually pretty bad maps so
Using the mannmelter in a situation where one guy is exclusively running scorch shot would be pretty fun, ngl.
imagine if the friendly heavy crit and used kill taunt with the holiday punch
As a Pyro Main I hate the Scorch Shot because it takes alot less skill than flare gun aiming or deto- jumping and still well (they do better ofc but still Scorch Shot does way more than it should) But the weapon is NOT OP. Just annoying and kind of a crutch
The point of Scorch Shot oneshotting light classes has always been a stupid one imo. In order for the scorch shot to oneshot a light class, you need to hit them with the double bounce, something that only works if the player is AFK or something. I have seen myself that even Heavy can easily escape the Scorch Shot’s double hit. And like even when I do get it in a blue moon, the “oneshot” involves afterburn which means they can easily heal and it’s simply better to just shoot them again. If you managed to get a double hit and can hit them again just shoot them again so they die faster.