Thanks for watching! And to be clear, this is just me giving my opinions about what theories I would like to be true! It is not me judging the quality of the theories, the competence of the theorists, or the likelihood of being true! I did not intend to be mean-spirited with this, only to have fun giving some opinions! I hope nobody felt burned by my words, and if you do, I apologize!
Honestly I want your theories to be true (because yours are great and understandable and somehow you don’t seem like a total crackhead to me) but some of these others are good too, it wouldn’t be bad if some of yours and the others were correct because it’d be a great combination
About the Yandere thing: Dont worry about those ppl Jaru, they are just a bunch of morons who want to be offended by everything(basically casual twitter moment)
I'm happy that my suggestion (Ice-E) is pretty much the only one you weren't hemming and hawing about you just loved it. Because of how unhinged and plausible it is that Toby would be that crazy. Also, hello. As far as I could tell I'm the one that you were talking about that came up with that particular possible ch.3 weird route manipulation tactic. About 2 months ago on my other account (ForestSkiesOfficial) on a video from RedHeadDJ titled "My ULTIMATE THEORY on the FUTURE CHAPTERS of DELTARUNE You may very well have seen it elsewhere and before that, but I don't think I had seen it anywhere else.
Generally when I hear sans is darkener theory, the crux of the argument is that he bleeds blood before he dies. We know from the fatal animation of when darkners get hit by snow grave and from a line from lancer that darkners do bleed. So we know sans has traits that don’t match monsters, humans, animals, and whatever flowey is, so people land on darkner as it’s the only thing with mostly matching traits. However we haven’t ever seen a way for darkners to be in the light world. So ultimately we don’t know what kind of creature he is. Probably something we’ve never heard of. About the only thing we can be sure of is he’s not a monster. Maybe the correct answer is the simplest. He’s a skeleton. I mean monsters don’t bleed according to undertale.
No idea what happens on Deltarune Twitter or in the comments section of your most popular videos. sounds bad for your health tbh! I get that this fanbase is intense, and in the “ralsei = knight” section you say as much yourself- your experience as a prominent and active part of the community is colouring your opinions as thousands of people respond with varying levels of insight and patience. I can deal with hearing some of your frustration with that up to a certain point. But over the course of three hours, when I am quite clearly demonstrating my interest and open-mindedness to specifically your opinions, it’s kind of insulting-which I doubt you intend. if you see this, I hope you think about some of your phrasing, especially in these very long videos. Please don’t talk to me like you’re picturing a faceless mob of flaming pitchforks ready to jump down your throat- like much of your audience, i have been patiently sat listening to your hot takes for literal days of my life.
My personal pet theory is that the "one" ending refers to the time loop theory, meaning that there's a huge branching tree of possible ways the plot can go, but _only one_ prevents The Roaring, which resets time a la Majora's Mask. So all other endings aren't an _ending,_ just a reset.
My personal theory was that there was one ending, but the context of how you got there changed whether or not it was a good ending. I’m not entirely sold on it anymore because it doesn’t feel like the kind of thing you’d see in a dream. That theory, on the other-hand, seems like the kind of thing you could see in a fever dream. I’ve had stress dreams where I’m stuck in a loop of sorts. If Toby had one of those but eventually found an “escape” from it, that ending could be what inspired deltarune.
My personal theory for the "one ending" is that it's in a similar way to Sonic Adventure dark and light stories. There is an end to each story, but they are not THE end of the story as a whole. That comes with the final story. In that sense, I believe this is where the 3 save files come in- one file for each primary timeline, Pacifist, Aggressive, and Weird, possibly. This also brings up interesting questions as to the purpose of copying or deleting save files within their universe.
@@GodChaos333 I'm eagerly awaiting the release! I'm also mentally preparing myself for the possibility that it releases either on the Sept or Oct anniversary, and that I'll be doing nothing but playing that game and makes videos on it for like 2 months after xD
Very well said rant Shay. That theory can only be a huge troll. You cannot be serious. Why would Toby Fox make a mother figure who is trying to be a good person act homophobic? It makes zero sense
@@GodChaos333 to pivot into extreme devils advocate, just because someone is kind doesn't mean they wouldn't be prejudiced. Soft prejudice exists everywhere. You wouldn't run the gays outta town, but you don't want them there. Now granted I think this theory is pre-owned dogwater, but as I said, devils advocate :)
To play slight devils advocate, I can *maybe* see Toriel being uncomfortable around same sex relationships/gender nonconformity being compelling, *if* she’s still otherwise well meaning. It could give her some moral texture - showing that even kind people like Toriel can still have biases that are coloured by their environment and upbringing. Not gonna defend Asgore/Rudy being gay adulterers though - for one Toriel would be *right* to be pissed off in that situation, and guys can be lifelong friends and *not* be secretly gay. Shocking, I know.
@@Colddirector I just really feel like Toby wouldn't put those themes in his game without clearly stating that those themes will be in the game from the start. I feel like it could be jarring for some LGBT fans where, this world where seemingly gender doesn't matter all that much, and gender non conformity is entirely accepted, suddenly has a character with those gripes, especially the character who is basically the arbiter of wholesomeness and familial love in both games. Either way, people need to stop killing the concept of the bromance.
I am like 90% sure that the original gas leak theory was a joke Scott Falco made at the end of his video on chapter 2 after his joke explanation of Kris pulling out a knife to eat the pie in chapter one ended up being correct
I personally LOVE the idea of the player being the angel, not because of the lore or anything, but because it has the potential to be scary as fuck, specifically in the snowgrave route. It makes me think of the line "who have I been praying to all this time?" from the Mandela Catalogue. The idea that us, the thing that has the potential to go around and kill things while possessing some kid, is the thing that the town has built a religion around, it's just- idk I just think it's creepy and I like it (don't really want it to be canon though, I think it'd work better in fanfic)
Yeah. It always makes me sad when Jaru outright dismisses anything to do with the player just for being the player. Yeah most player theories are… how do I say dumb bullshit? But stuff like this is pretty interesting. Especially since in UT the player *is* (in a way) the angel. It’s kinda the point of the game.
Ralsei being a girl would be heartbreaking, as a feminine boy myself I love when there are fictional male characters who don't shy away from being feminine. Ralsei liking to look cute, or asking if he looks pretty while wearing the ribbon in chapter one is so relieving and motivating. The idea that if your a feminine boy you must actually be a girl is disheartening sometimes, and I know we aren't a minority or anything, but having some representation is really nice.
Sure! And I'm fine with folks wanting that! I was just discussing how I'd feel about it if it turned out to be true. Rest assured, feminine boy Ralsei is also something that I enjoy. x)
i completely agree! i can respect the angle jaru had, but i think it would be disrespectful to imply that men who are feminine are secretly girls, and if they're not then they're lying to themselves. i don't think toby would do that :p
I literally cheered when the Ice-E theory got such a high rank 😂 One of my favorite storytelling tropes is when something that seems clearly ridiculous is taken super seriously and produces genuine sadness, fear, etc. I want the UT word search to give me PTSD by the time Deltarune is done
Flowey was very similar, a smiling flower named flowey is actually a bad guy is very cliche and goofy, yet flowey's story is so intricate and important
I think the funniest option for Roulxs is to have him so desperately trying to be important but completely failing at it. He totally wants to be deep and complex, but it's all a facade. He acts like he has a mysterious past and important knowledge about the secrets of the world, but he just doesn't. Of course, he's still going to keep bluffing as long as he possibly can, but eventually, someone's gonna go "Hey, this guy's just a big phony!" and he immediately runs away. But my more interesting idea for Roulxs is that, across the next couple chapters, he shows up less and less, not even appearing at all by chapter 5 or 6. Of course, the rest of the characters, who never really cared about him at all, don't even realize that he's gone. He's been forgotten. But eventually, if you look hard enough, you can find him. The accent he's taken on is almost indecipherable, but he seems to be talking about freedom. He's gripping a Shadow Crystal in his hands, the thing that he knows will finally make him important! The thing he knows will finally make everyone, Queen, King, even Third Entry I Included So This Works As A List, recognize him as the perfect choice for second-in-command! At least, that's what the man who gave it to him said it would do...
I also had that thought. It's such a cool idea to think about Roulxs being used as a way to show more in-depth the fall from grace that we heard about with Spamton.
A fun theory i have that i enjoy is that Ralsei DID explain everything to Kris (i.e. the roaring and the main plot) but only in the manual, which you cant read. It makes some sense, because ralsei was basically isolated for who knows how long and was longing for these heroes, so he probably wouldnt know how to act in most circumstances! I love this idea more than "RALSEI WAS EVIL ALL ALONG" because I always hate those almost as much as I hate all a dream theories
That's an interesting idea! Maybe the "...So that's why.” sections in both Chapters, wherein Ralsei seems to explain something to Kris while we are preoccupied with looking at what Susie is doing, involve him explaining another part of this manual to Kris, basically telling them what's about to happen and what they need to do follow the path that Ralsei thinks is best.
i wouldn't be surprised if ralsei doesn't become evil but is replaced by lancer. because i just realized that ralsei isn't likely a prince as there is no king/queen of the dark world he belong's to, but lancer is a prince and a darkner so he could replace ralsei and still fulfill the "prophecy". it won't really effect gameplay as lancer can have all the ability's needed to replace ralsei, and susie is learning to heal so she can get better at it thru out the rest of the chapter's.
I disagree with the idea of the player not being tied to the narrative. Not necessarily the Player Being the Angels, that I don't buy to be true. But Flowey's monologue in the Genocide Route about curiosity and how boredom led to him being the monster is supposed to make the player reflect on how their actions are one in the same. How the process of detaching yourself from the characters in the game leads you to immoral paths purely based on curiosity. Even calling out that some folks don't have the guts to do it themselves, but would watch others do it to sate their curiosity. Inversely, Flowey at the end of the Pacisfist Route tells you that the story's over and that you could just let them enjoy their lives as is. Undertale is a story largely about Empathy and finding connections with those you encounter. The premise of the game was built on finding humanity in the random mobs of monsters that you'd mindlessly mow down in any other game. By removing the player AS a character, I think you remove the narrative point of that empathy.
10:00 Hm, I see where you're coming from, since you're totally right about how the player doesn't really directly exist in Undertale, but I think using Undertale as a frame of reference for the player/game relationship can lead to a lot of confusion. Deltarune seems to be VERY OBVIOUSLY drawing a huge disconnect between the red soul (which I assume to be a complete stand-in for the player's will) and Kris; not only do we have scenes where Kris removes their soul to do things, but an example I love is the piano in the hospital. We know Kris can play the piano due to NPC dialogue about it and Noelle's blog post about it, and yet in game, while WE the player control Kris, attempting to play the piano results in a horrible sound. We can't play the piano in the realm of Deltarune! But Kris can. I understand the concern of how absurd the idea of a real person interacting with a game world is, but to be blunt that's just how metatext works. It's not entirely literal, it's an acknowledgement that the game we are playing is fiction, and we as players have a special ability to interact with the game without directly being in it. Undertale is a game which examines how disconnected players can become from games when they exert violence onto all the characters. For that goal, it makes sense to acknowledge the player without having them be directly in the story. Having a stand-in like Frisk works fine. Deltarune is a game which explores the idea of having a protagonist who has their own life prior to the start of the game and isn't just a blank slate for the player. For that to work, you need the player and Kris to be separate. Full stop. This isn't necessarily an argument for Angel = Player theory (I'm more of a Noelle = Angel truther myself lol), but also I don't think theories involving the player are bad. It irks me to see people disregard them so easily considering Deltarune is so obviously hinting at the importance of the player in the narrative. Anyways I'm not done with the video yet so I apologize if I ended up repeating a point made later in it, just wanted to type this before I forgot lol.
I think a good way to look at thing is there is Something that is Not Kris that is currently controlling and watching Kris. We see this when Kris takes their soul out to do actions outside the Something's control, we see this when Ralsei tries to divert the Something's attention and talk to Kris offscreen in each chapter (or fails to do so in Snowgrave), and we see this when "Kris" and "You" are used separately in calling for Susie, Ralsei, and Noelle at the end of the Spamton Snowgrave fight. Its pretty clear that what the player directly controls is this Something, not Kris themself. Maybe that Something just IS the player on a direct level, that is the most straightforward interpretation of the events seen here. However, it could also be that this Something is not literally the player, but rather some being that exists more solidly in-universe to represent the player's control and influence. Whatever the case is, there is certainly Something that is Not Kris that we directly control, and most of the theories that discuss "The Player" refer to this Something's actions/behaviors/nature. Not being a fan of The Player being literally involved with the narrative is reasonable, but it seems like Jaru has extended that to ignoring the existence of this Something that the game has pretty clearly indicated exists and is important to the narrative, at least in regards to discussing the theories seen here. Just replacing "The Player" with "Whatever Not-Kris is" in most of the various theories gets you functionally the same theories just without the direct involvement of the literal player while still acknowledging that Something that is Not Kris is involved here.
@@msgameandcake628 I agree so much with this. Jaru does seem to believe that the posession theory is true and that its specifically Asriel from his theory that he's dead and that we are controlling Asriel who is then controlling Kris. Yet he has great disdain for anything player related. Even says it would make for a worse story if it were true. Like its obvious that we will probably never be directly referenced (just like in Undertale) but I think its obvious that we are meant to feel responsible and bad for what we are forcing Kris (or Noelle) to do. Even though in Undertale Frisk had the canonical power to save and load it was still us that was supposed to feel guilty for killing Toriel, reload and then get called out for it by flowey. Yes at the end chara is revealed but for basically the whole game we were supposed to feel in control and feel like we are part of the plot, even though we actually arent on a story level. Why cant that be the same in Deltarune?
@@msgameandcake628 You are absolutely right and I totally agree! You worded what I was trying to say so much better than I did, haha. It's clear that whatever is controlling Kris (that we, by proxy, are controlling) is a very very clear stand-in for The Player or even just the Player directly. I think details like Ralsei talking to Kris with video game lingo such as "Press [X] to do (insert thing here)" and Susie even reacting to that with confusion ("Who's [X]?") shows that there's some direct fourth-wall-breaking action happening. Plus, like you said, the distinction between "Kris" and "You" in Snowgrave makes this even clearer. It doesn't have to be super literally the Player, but it's definitely the Player's proxy in-universe or something along those lines. Edit: JUST thought of this, but also the fact we can still control the red soul in the birdcage after Kris removes it is a pretty dead give away for this idea as well.
@@tobiasbayer4866 I like your point about Undertale! It's true that while, yes, characters in Undertale usually only address Frisk when talking to the player (besides arguably Flowey and Chara of course), the point is that Frisk is the in-game stand-in for The Player. Like you said, WE are the ones meant to feel the weight of the actions that we decide Kris and Frisk will take in either game. Both games are video games which deconstruct video games, after all! Whether Deltarune will have another stand-in like Frisk to be the red soul or if the red soul is literally just The Player is yet to be seen, but I think ignoring our role in the narrative is a slippery slope to losing the thread of what both games are truly about. Good observation!
@@tobiasbayer4866 I had completely forgotten (or maybe I never fully knew in the first place) that Jaru thought the Not-Kris Something was Asriel. In that regard, I would like to clarify that my complaint isn't necessarily about how dedicated he is to that interpretation. My issue is moreso that we don't have a good universally accepted neutral terminology for the Not-Kris Something. In this regard, when people refer to The Player in the theories shown in this video they aren't REALLY theories about how The Literal Player is going to impact the story, but rather about how the Not-Kris Something is going to impact the story. In this regard, since Jaru thinks that Asriel is the Not-Kris something, he should've probably analyzed the "Player theories" from the perspective of Asriel is the Angel Kris summoned Asriel Asriel will leave Kris/become the vessel Ralsei cares about Asriel, not Kris Ralsei has a crush on Asriel Some of these don't work quite as well if you think the Not-Kris Something is SPECIFICALLY Asriel, but all of these can be understood as referring to an in-universe character that only represents the player's influence rather than being literally The Player. People just refer to this character as The Player since we don't have a good widely accepted alternative. Therefore, from here on out I'll be referring to the Not-Kris Something as Hearty.
The player is canon in Undertale, this was confirmed already. The player is ABSOLUTELY canon in Deltarune. Sure, we can try and entertain some wild theory that the soul is not us but some in-universe character we control, like your Asriel theory. Even if we try to ignore the whole gonermaker sequence, it's already a giant stretch you're making to fit your narrative. But tell me, who the hell "accepts everything that will happen from now on", Jaru? Who finds the "unused" text lines in the game resources? Or do those things not count for you? Because I would argue they absolutely do. Your disdain for meta theories/player being directly involved in a Toby Fox game of all things is, frankly, silly. Putting your convoluted "Asriel possesses Kris" theory as S rank is even sillier and reeks of vanity. Occam's razor, Jaru - if Kris rips out a soul, leading to us losing control of him (and said soul shown explicitly being controlled by us while out in the open), pretty sure Toby implies the soul is us, not preparing some Shyamalan-like twist of Kris being a russian doll of entities (us controlling quote-unquote Asriel, who in turn controls Kris). Sorry, this whole conviction of yours to separate player from the story, compounded by your smug attitude, really rubs me the wrong way. I do not see the story going in this direction. Fell free to come back and laugh at me if you turn out to be right though.
I'd like to join the club of people to be laughed at! Asriel being straight up dead makes no sense, Toriel *knows* Asriel is coming home in a few days so he's obviously still alive. Ralsei could be Asriel's dust, but not *all* of his dust. Y'know how when you behead Paps his body dusts first? Maybe Kris accidentally cut off one of Azzy's fingers or something. That's literally the only explanation that makes sense.
Yeah, i understood what he meant but its definitely a very misguided view on the use of meta elements in toby fox games. I do think the reason why meta works so well in toby fox games is because it is used as a storytelling tool to enhance your view on the story and for some meta-comentary without consuming said story or making it the whole point of it. This is true in undertale, where frisk is a blank state for this said reason, to allow the story to be told without the need of the player as an active entity while clearly being one. You can get a story out of undertale without drawing meta paralelsz although they 100% are there and are meant to be used to fill the gaps in the narrative. The difference is that you cannot make this same point for deltarune because it has been made absolutely crystal clear that kris is not a blanked state like frisk. Kris is a character being controlled by the soul. And im sorry but trying to argue that the soul is not a representation of the players control over this world creates way more problems that it solves them, apart from being a bit of a weird concept right, since then whats the message or theme trying to be implied here. Whats the point of trying to remove the player from the story and give that responsibility to another character that we Control thats controlling kris when we have literally the main man himself w.d literally talking to us on twitter asking us to fill an aplication? Any theory that circunvents all these hints and tries to remove the player influence from the story just lead to a story that has no coerent themes thats its repeating to the player. So yeah i think it is the most logical conclusion from all the hints we've got that the player is absolutely more involved and prominent to the story than in undertale and any theories trying to disprove that are misguided and actively create more holes in the plot than they fix.
i think the semantics used to say the player isn;t canon to undertale is a little silly, in my opinion. the player is either diegetic or it’s not. and regardless of whether someone believes the player is non-diegetic/diegetic in undertale, if you consider the theme (which jaru speaks about a lot in his theories but seems to miss here a bit) of control in deltarune, who better to bring into the story than the player?
@@theflyingspagetI don’t think anything happened to Asriel in terms of physical injuries, mental ones are possible(the secret bosses have all been crazy) If anything Ralsei is either an important item that Kris or Asriel owned (dragon book, headband, etc) or some type of memory (the former is more likely)
Sorry if this comes off as a little hostile, but I don’t understand how someone can have an interpretation of this game that rejects the player being a part of the story. In my mind it’s pretty in your face about it, I genuinely don’t know what more Toby could have done at this point to spell it out without just straight up saying it. I fear you’re going to be in for a lot of disappointment if you don’t like the idea of the player having a role in this game.
To put it simply, I see no advantage to the player being part of the story IF this is the way Toby is intending to go about it. It's not that I don't understand the evidence in favor of the player being in the story. It's that I think the end result of that evidence is a poorly executed story. In other words, either the player is a part of this story, and Toby has done shockingly little with the idea except have one character be upset about it, or we're just not part of the story. Given the choice between a bad story where the player is involved, and a good story where we aren't involved, I'd prefer to believe in the latter.
Agreed, and it actually might be my favorite concept about Deltarune, the idea that the character you're playing has their own goals and is fighting back. How we play as Kris, but have no way of knowing them
Honestly I really like the theory that Ralsei knows the player/player stand-in exists. He purposely pulls us out of Kris' body to have a conversation with them, he only blushes when his sprite is overlapping with our soul, and in the Japanese version, the only times Ralsei uses the "you" pronoun (kimi I think) when talking to Kris is when he is explaining a game mechanic, or asking us to make a choice. But I think the biggest piece of evidence is that he names castle town after the player.
one thing i will say about the player being part of deltarunes plot is that deltarune has arguably already had more characters acknowledge the player's existence in just 2 chapters than undertale did. Ralsei is clearly aware that SOMETHING is watching them and manipulates us on two occasions so he can talk to kris alone. and spamton literally hears the players voice- as does noelle, in snowgrave. thats 3 characters vs undertales 1 [or arguably 2] and were only in chapter 2/7 i think this is because deltarune is fundamentally interested in examining the relationship between protagonist and player, which is something undertale never focused on and really only barely touched on with Chara's genocide dialogue. but now its a core theme of the entire game. kris is not a pure vessel like frisk, he actively resists you. ps: idk if you forgot or just think this shouldnt count as canon or something, but flowey 100% knew the player existed. in a post-pacifist ending he literally speaks directly to you, as a player, face to face, and directly begs you, the player, to close the game and let frisk live their life.
I'm of the opinion that any instance that people attribute to the Player can instead be attributed to other in-universe characters, such as Chara, Frisk, and whatever entity is inside Kris' soul.
Actually, the pixel is secretly Gaster watching you, because if you replace the letters in “pixel” with the letters G, A, S, T, E, and R, it spells Gaster 🤯🤯🤯
It's understandable to dislike any theories involving the player directly in Undertale, but DR seems way more explicit so far about player involvement. Even if the player is not "directly" involved, we are at least playing the role of ~something~ that appears to be taking control of Kris. We are directly acknowledged by Gaster (yes, it's Gaster, don't even try to deny it at this point) in the opening intro and asked to give _our own name_ , so it is very hard for me to believe that the player won't be directly involved in the story somehow.
I may be wrong, but my impression of Chess theory was that it was more of a metaphor for the bosses and their order rather than finding exact connections and making everything fit into a game of chess. Wingdings egg thing may be one of the places the theory is a stretch but it could also just be a silly thing that got noticed and spawned inspiration for the vague chess theme/metaphor when the story was being developed.
I just don't see why that would be something Toby Fox would bother with if he wasn't going to do anything super interesting with it. But that's just me. xD
The thing is that the theory is based on the fact that the two first bosses are "King" and "Queen" and there's also a "Knight" But there's so many other things that would fit that pattern, like if all main bosses are simply royalty-themed, or linked to some sort of real life important status (so maybe the church boss could be "Saint" something). And also that's assuming there's a pattern in the first place, we only have two examples so it's hard to say it is
Yeah I like the idea of chess theory personally in a thematic sense. (Well, actually I hate it but that's just because after playing AAI2 I never wanna see a single chess piece again) but the second people started theorizing that the chapter 3 boss was LITERALLY going to be named rook and from there it felt almost like people assumed Toby had the creativity of a toaster. Chess theory is only really fun if it's a thematic thing and not like a literal "oh well this bad guy is going to be NAMED ROOK and he is going to BE A ROOK" and there's a point where that doesn't work or make sense. King and Queen, for one, aren't named King and Queen, but they're also, yknow, a king and a queen. And I don't think it makes much sense for the next ruler/overlord character to be... a... rook???? Like what?????
One thing I haven't seen much in theories, and wasn't mentioned in the video, is that the Dark Fountains serve a similar role to The Barrier in a thematically opposite way. The whole of Undertale is spent getting to, and then attempting to get through The Barrier. Deltarune seems to be going in the opposite direction, with the fountains being closer to cracks in the barrier between light and dark that we have to patch up so the world doesn't get destroyed, being encountered very frequently. Another side theory I have for this is that shadow crystals may just be pieces of this hypothetical barrier that were broken off when it was punctured to create a dark fountain. Also, appreciate your work on speculating about what could come next in Deltarune. The videos that come out of it are very entertaining to watch regardless (or, really because of) how unhinged they can be.
I actually totally agree with that parallel! I'm of the opinion that the Barrier from UNDERTALE and the Dark World / Timeloop from DELTARUNE are parallels, with both being the primary obstacle for the characters to overcome, yet also not being the actual focus of the drama. We're on the same page in that regard!
I think the gas leak theory isn't really a "it's all a dream" theory but rather a minor prediction for chapter 3 's intro bc in chapter 1's ending we thought that Kris was gonna be evil and killing with their knife but then chapter 2 came out it turns out that they used it to get pie. But it seems that's already debunked bc all the chapter 3 teasers shown are from the house's dark world, meaning that Kris did actually create one lol
Me and my brother are obsessed with the time loop theory, and how we think it always resets when they fail to fight the angel. In the files of the intro, and ONLY the intro is their dialogue of most likely Susie, this only happens when you have device failure. "Come on, Is that all you got?!" "Kris, Get up...!" "This is not your fate...!" "Please dont give up...!". We think this is Susie seeing Kris fall in the final battle, and she says this. After Kris falls, the time loop restarts again, and it will keep repeating until Kris defeats the angel/the Titans.
14:11 Toriel is a kindergarden teacher, right? So any child disappearance would directly affect her as well because she was probably loved them like they were her children. Also, I don't think Asgore killed anyone because if so he'd be treated like a murderer, not like the average citizen.
If Asgore has any blame for Dess’s disappearance, it’d more likely to be from INaction than anything he actually did to them. The reason Toriel left him in Undertale was because of his inaction to go through the barrier to get the rest of the souls after getting one. I don’t know whether or not she would have forgiven killing one child as part of the greater good or not, but she specifically cites his inactions as why she left. I could totally see him not being directly responsible for Dess, but failing to do something important that might have found or even saved them, and while the rest of the town can forgive him (like how the rest of the underground forgives him for killing six kids) toriel could not.
@@omgwafflez101perhaps Kris was the one to say something like "Dess got eaten by the bunker" and Asgore took it as one of Kris's many pranks and by the time he realized it was true it was too late
There's a big difference between being a meta theory and being a "THE PLAYER IS A PERSON IN THE PLOT" theory. The former has a metanarrative where the actions/stories of the characters have a double meaning that applies to the player in real life. The latter abandons the metanarrative altogether to transform the regular narrative into this absurd farce where the god-like player entity chats up the fictional characters and undermines all stakes in the story.
@@JaruJaruJ I don't think the player being a character undermines the stakes of a story anymore than a player playing a story does. Though my bigger problem with what you say is the fact that it feels like the player being some kind of participant in the story already feels like it's been heavily hinted at with the emphasis on Kris not being in control of his soul and the voice Noelle hears in the snowgrave route. Though I get that you believe that someone else like Asriel is in control of Kris.
@@JaruJaruJ Deconstructing video games mechanics is very Toby Fox-like, though. In UT, he managed to talk a whole lot about saving and loading without breaking the immersion or "ruining" the story, and I'm confident he'll do it again with the relation between the player and player-character. It'll most likely be much more subtle that you're presenting it
@@JaruJaruJwe aren’t really a god though? The only theory that really does say that is the Angel one. Almost everyone in the story can fight us, Gaster put us in a body, Kris takes us out, Ralsei diverts us, and Susie disobeys us, we can change the story, but we can’t become gods.
Flowey definitely is talking to the player at the end of a True Pacifist Route. He literally says (assuming you put in the Fallen Human's name as Chara) "Chara", the quotation marks included. Blud would not do that if he was talking to Chara.
I haven't heard the player angel theory before, so maybe you didn't explain it well, but your reasoning for why you don't like it is kind of strange. To say that the player shouldn't play a narrative role is to completely ignore Kris as a character and makes explaining Ralsei's behavior nearly impossible. I can't imagine any plausible way that the player *isn't* in the narrative, at least a little bit, by the game's conclusion. Between what we see on screen and what the secret bosses are saying, Kris is definitely possessed by *something* and (mostly) doesn't have the ability to act for themself. The most popular and simplest explanation is that it's the player, since we are literally controlling Kris, and the soul, and can even control it in the bird cage when they take it out. I guess you could say we're controlling another character or entity who is controlling Kris? That adds a lot of complexity though, and I'm not sure what exactly would be gained by going that route.
maybe it’s confirmation bias kicking in, but i feel like you would actually have to prove the player ISN’T diegetic in deltarune. it would be interesting to hear jaru expand on this other and try to explain the holes that interpretation leaves, rather than leaving it at the game not being completely explicit about it or undertale only being absolutely explicit about in the chara’s genocide dialogue.
Asriel possession Kris for no reason goes against his character. He’s evil as Flowey since he got his ability to feel remorse taken away. He’s portrayed as someone Kris likes, but is jealous of because he’s so good at everything. Him dying does not progress the plot and makes much less sense than the player, a heavily foreshadowed person, being in the game.
Oh my god, I'm totally gonna rank these theories later. Also, it's a little rare to see someone opposed in the fandom for Player theories ngl. It's just so integrated into fandom interpretation that at this point, hearing something other than that is rare to me at least lol. My own perspective is that we do, in a way, play a very important role in the story (Ex. Soul lore being teased) and at the very least, control Kris and we are not "omnipotent"-like. The fact that other characters, mainly Susie, doesn't comply to our orders is kinda proof that we are limited in what we can do in DR's world, and also pushes the "choices don't matter" narrative. I mean, Kris can literally tear out the SOUL, our little avatar and there's nothing we can do about it. Other than that, I personally love player theories, but not those that make the player be an all-powerful God-like entity.
2nd intro voice theory has the implicit part about it that "Geoff" isn't evil and didn't screw you over in the beginning. I don't know what the actual distribution looks like but it feels like a lot of people suppose Gaster is evil because of pre-Deltarune Undertale headcanon or fan content, so I appreciate being open to seeing this character (or a related character) in a different possible light... even if we don't have too much to go off of for definitively being evil/antagonistic or not.
I have this specific interpretation of "Ralsei is Kris Ideal Self" theory that has been bouncing around in my head a lot recently. I've personally been in the camp of Ralsei being Kris' old red horns. They're very specifically called out in Chapter 1 and even end with a "I wonder what happened to them" line which sets off HUGE foreshadowing alarms. We also know that based off the various interactions of Kris and Ralsei and the tea healing amounts cited a lot in Tea Theory that Kris' opinion of Ralsei isnt exactly peachy. Between that, and the Acid Lake scene where Ralsei basically has a whole identity questioning crisis. It leads me to think that Ralsei is a representation of something that Kris once wanted. When they were younger they wished they could of "just fit in", but now, for reasons that I think could even relate to Kris and Noelle's friendship drifting apart, they are bitter towards that pastt wishful thinking, and that may be why they discarded the horns they once wore so much according to Toriel. I think the idea of Kris facing something they once longed for but now despise is a really interesting way to take the Ralsei/Kris dynamic and seems to already be set up by some parts of the story.
i have a little theory that every lightner has a major boss darkner which specifically represents some insecurity of the lightner when said lightner first enters that dark world. For example, susie's wrath manifests as king, who quotes susie's 'QUIET PEOPLE PISS ME OFF' and is all around just a menace. We also have queen, who was a manifestation of noelle's parental issues. finally, i think ralsei is a manifestation of kris's desire to go on adventures with asriel again, but is just not able to be the person who kris wants. As such, kris doesn't HATE ralsei, but is just disappointed that he is nothing like what he desired.
Although Ralsei being a girl isn't a requirement for the theory, I love the idea that Ralsei has a true form bit disguises themselves to be more trustworthy
Personally, the problem I see in Asriel being dead is that, unless it happened less than 48 hours before the game started, Toriel wouldn’t be talking about him coming over soon and would probably be instead more concerned about how he mysteriously disappeared.
idfk man. because if asriel was dead and kris did all the ding dongs of hiding his corpse im pretty sure the college would mail toriel or maybe asgore’s house about him suspiciously not being in the college
plus doesn’t asriel have a phone? why tf does a adult off in college not have a phone and not have family contacts. if asriel is dead, the college could inform toriel about asriel not being in college. i don’t like this theory because it doesn’t make sense in practice.
@@eletgres519 That's not how college works in my country. If I didn't show up, the only people to give a crap would be my debt collectors, and they wouldn't show up for potentially years.
@@eletgres519 Asriel is implied to not have a working phone, as Pizzapants has to ask Kris to contact Asriel on his behalf, despite Pizzapants having a phone.
Believe it or not I was actually the one who popularized the ralsei is a pure darkner (A.K.A grand fountain made him special) Quite the experience to have one of your favorite theorists dunk on you LOL Keep an eye out for my GREEN THEORY video. Promise it'll shake up the theory community, it's an idea i can't wait to hear more thoughts on.
That's awesome! Can't wait for your future theories! And I'm sorry for the dunk! It's nothing personal, and it's not a strike against the theory itself or against you! It's just my own personal tastes! xD
@@JaruJaruJ no worries! I thought it was funny. Plus the dunking should be saved for when I make GREEN THEORY. That's my Oberon smog, and it's not an idea I've seen anyone else present. Very excited!
1:07:23 I believe another reason why people think that fountain is special is because any darkner can live there without being “incompatible” with it. I think that’s why ralsei is compatible with other worlds, because his fountain is able to take any darkner, so it works oppositely too?
Jaru really out here saying "wouldn't it be cool if everyone was fucked up/a murderer/dead?" and I'm just sitting here thinking "Indeed, What a Fascinating Take! Thank you Sir!"
whooooa there buddy...! I think you might have a major case of observation bias. You're only looking for what you want to see. Putting Angel=Player in F tier is major disrespect. Like, even if you don't like it, it's still easily B tier. Sure there are other in-game canadines like Noelle, Dess, Gaster, Kris, etcetera.... but you can't deny that there are at least ties that may suggest it's the player EVERYWHERE. Like, even with the prophecy in Undertale with them either being set free or it being the angel of death that kills them.. maybe the first one could fit Asriel, but the "Murder-mc-loves-to-kill-people" is definitely us. In DELTARUNE we possess a human body, and we seem _suspiciously_ character-like, what with Kris fighting our influence in story and all. Or we could be a demon they summoned with Goth-Girl Katty. Also we are recognized as a referable entity by Geoff. ALSO-ALSO, we aaaaaare kind of an interdimensional being beyond Deltarune's *time-line and spatial boundaries,* that had to *_enter_* the void/depths/goner_creation or whatever you want to call it. We can literally destroy and create whole universes on a whim... along with our deciding to give up literally causing the world to be *"Covered in darkness.".* When Asriel took the appearence of the prophesized angel on the runes, he was capable of doing the same things with his "Hyper Goner" attack. Which makes the player feel pretty similar in Deltarune in the menu. And as just a side-note, Spamton thinks he can reach "HEAVEN" by taking the the soul inside of Kris. OUR red heart from the Goner Creation. Jaru, there is TONS of evidence that gives it at least as much support/credence as many of these other theories. I really do think you may have goggles on your eyes for this theory, sort of speak.. I'm just being honest.
It's not disrespect. It's opinion. I'm ranking them based off how much I'd like the theories to be true, not based off the merits of the theories. As for the rest, that's a perfectly fine interpretation of the narrative that you have. I just 10000% think that's not the case. Observation bias is about letting one's opinions skew what's in front of you, and yes, I do have observation bias, but not in the way you think. I have observation bias because two key beliefs color my perspective: 1) Toby Fox is a great writer who is going to tell a great story. 2) The player being a canon part of the core narrative would ruin the story. Because of those two core beliefs, I cannot and WILL NOT look kindly upon any theories that insist the player is part of the narrative. Not because those theories are wrong, they could absolutely be right! But because I refuse to believe Toby Fox would ruin his narrative like that. Maybe I'll be wrong, and he will ruin it, which would be extremely disappointing. But for now, I choose to hold onto hope, and believe he won't do that.
@@JaruJaruJ Ok, I get that. I skipped around because it's 3 hours long (actually I am still watching it rn) so I didn't hear the part at the beginning where you said it would be based off of what you like. Sorry, but it's very long, so I miss some things. PS. "Disrespect" is a social word I use from time to time. I did not say it in it's letteral meaning. That's how I talk.
Nice video! I was very happy to see some love for "Half-Human Susie" as it is one theory I am a very big fan of. My personal thoughts are that due to her part-human genetics, she grew up to be less "scary" than other purple dragon monsters as her human genes neutered a lot of those traits, such as having a short tail she finds embarrassing and a rather small stature compared to others of her (monster side) kind. Her monster parent (in my headcanon her mother) abuses her as she believes her unthreatening form and kind and caring personality is a disgrace to her monster heritage, forcing her to adopt a cold and aggressive persona to try and "fit in" with what is expected of a monster like her parent. I feel like if we do see Susie's parent we would see the monster one and not the human one, as Toby has said he preferred having Kris be the only one as it made them more unique and it felt more natural having everyone else be these colourful monsters. I like this theory because as you said, it thematically mirrors Kris - both of them have identity issues between life as a monster and life as a human. Kris is a human who has spent their life around monsters and wishes to fit in with them. Susie is neither a monster or a human, and struggles to fit in with either due to her situation and what others expect of her based on her heritage and how she presents as a traditional "gruff dragon monster". It's an interesting dynamic I would love to see play out. Also I think Susie definitely has a really sweet and caring side to her that she's hiding and I want to see more of it Also, as much as I love homophobic Toriel as a joke it was even more of a pleasure to see Shayy rip into it so hard like holy wooah they did not hold back I really hope Half-Human Susie gets more discussion at some point, I NEED more talk about it Loved all the hot takes as well. Did not expect girl Ralsei to get so high up but the way you spun it from a thematic context was actually pretty cool. Also how dare you slander Rouxlsaster like that how dare you how dare you
It's possible that her home life isn't abusive, and her family is simply living in hard times. With her father being absent or hiding himself in costumes.
I think the way you disregard some of the "player" related theories is a little unfair, as my assumption was that "player" simply refers to whatever the red soul is. These theories become better if you substitute whatever that is for player. Like, we're not _the player,_ real human person outside the game, we're simply playing as, say, Steve, the supernatural being with incredible power who manifests as a red heart/soul, but _otherwise fully exists within the context of the world of the game._ The game is then not about the player themselves, but a character who represents the player. This then maintains the same, lighter level of Meta from Undertale, where you're not directly acknowledged as the player, but you still play as Frisk, a character with abilities similar to what a player has over a game. Those 'player' theories then fit more into the world: - Kris didn't summon you, the player, they summoned Steve, the mysterious creature who went on to possess them - It's not the player leaving Kris to control someone else, it's Steve, the supernatural entity possessing them, leaving and possessing something else. - Ralsei doesn't know and care about the you, the player, over Kris, the character. He knows and cares about Steve, the character who exists in the world. He does not know or assume that Steve is controlled by someone beyond their reality playing a video game, nor is that ever suggested by the game. He simply knows that Steve behaves weirdly, perceives the world differently, knows strange things about reality, and has mysterious and dangerous powers over the world.
Honestly, I think Ariel possessing Kris is a very possible and Toby storyline, and I agree with that. However, I don't think it would be some Halloween costume jello knife prank gone wrong like u said in your original video lol. I don't know what could have caused a tragedy like that, but im pretty positive it's not that. I just can't wait for the rest of the chapters mainly
Agreed, it would definitely undermine the tragedy if it was all foreshadowed in a gag about what I assume to be kris' search history having weird jello sensory vids in it
I don't really get your dislike/disbelief for the player theories. The scenes that are given the most narrative importance are ones where Kris throws the soul into a cage, while you control the soul, and Kris wanders about Dialogue describes how Kris acts different Weird route ending "Kris" vs "You" call for help I don't think this is particularly "vague" it seems pretty front and center to me The player might be playing a different in game character that is NOT Kris, but it looks like they are at the very least not playing Kris themselves
I'm beginning to think I'll need to make a video about this topic. To put it very simply, I do not believe the scenes we're shown are about the player. I do not believe the player is part of this narrative. I believe this because at no point has us being part of the narrative been utilized in any sort of meaningful way. Because of this, I have two options: Either I believe the player is NOT part of the narrative, or I believe the player IS part of the narrative and Toby Fox has done a very poor job of using that plot point to tell any sort of unique or meaningful story. Between those options, I'd rather maintain my hope and believe the game is good and does NOT involve the player.
the Noelle or raslei has a new meaning now (both of them seeming obsesive and damaged) literally fire and ice Noelle having angel motifs ,ralsei wanting to banish the angels heaven i'll make the video later
Since you mentioned it, Ralsei's crush on Kris is the main thing that breaks your theory to me. If Ralsei really has a crush on Kris but he's also made of Kris' brother remains who Kris killed themselves then... it's just too weird. Even if it turns out Ralsei inherented no memories from Asriel at all it's still weird, the intention would still be for us to think this Asriel lookalike was in love with Kris only to reveal later "Don't worry, even tho they're the same they're technically kind of not the same so it's ok"
I feel like that's an issue with Ralsei as a character, and not an issue with Ralsei Theories. He looks like Asriel and also crushes on Kris. Take that how you like, but that's true no matter what we theorize Ralsei to be. As such, I think the only theory this breaks is the theory that Ralsei is literally Asriel. Anything beyond that is fair game, in my opinion.
@@JaruJaruJWell, I don't think that "crush" is 100% fact. It could be admiration, could be, timid attempt at friendship, it could all be a facade. I wouldn't say that its necessarily a crush
@@JaruJaruJ Well kind of but not really, i personally believe that Ralsei crushes on whoever the owner of the Soul is and not Kris (which yeah is a variation of the "Ralsei crushes on Player" theory). I think it's meant to be a fakeout, you're meant to think that it's nearing incest but then they'll reveal Ralsei's actually in love with the Soul and it's all good. It's supposed to seem weird to further disconnect Kris from the Soul you're controlling. That or he's Kris' fursona or whatever, point is there's ways for Ralsei's crush on Kris to not be incestuous. My issue is that any variations of the "Ralsei is Asriel" theory just doubles down on the weirdness, again in the case of your theory it's "Yes this guy who looks like Kris's brother has a crush on them but... he's also literally made of Kris' brother's dust who Kris personally killed, and Kris's actual brother is watching it all up close and personal as he's possessing Kris". And there's no point to it, it's just weird for the sake of it. Technically there's nothing stopping Toby from still doing it but i personally don't think he would.
For the first theory and Chara in general, I really don't think they're meant to be a specific, grounded character but rather a reflection/representation of the player. The only time they appear is after a genocide route, the one time player will question themselves whether they did the right thing or not, something Chara also does. In addition, it also explains the reasoning behind the name Chara as well. Chara is just the first five letters of character, which always struck me as odd because it's like naming a human Huma or something. But if we think of them as a stand in character for the player, it makes sense why they would have such a basic default name. And in the code they're referred as "the demon", which makes sense if they're meant to be the representation of a plauer who has erased almost all monsters underground. I also just realised that it would even make sense for their weird Japanese sentences too. They're not meant to be a specific person but a collective representation of those who played Undertale, and not everyone speaks the same way (in this context I'm referring to Chara using both kanji, hiragana and katakana in their JP sentences). Tying this to Deltarune, it would make sense why we hear the voice of someone who has played Undertale. Firstly, both someone has done a pacifist and someone who has done a genocide route will know that the characters in Undertale/Deltarune are their own characters including the protagonist, with their own story. So it makes sense for them to say "no one can choose why they are in this world". And secondly, it makes sense in the meta narrative. We first have who's likely to be Gaster, someone who exists outside the boundaries of the games and 4th wall speak to us. So it makes so much sense that the person who's above them, someone above the consequences of breaking the 4th wall would be someone who's meant to be outside the story, someone who has played Undertale. Chara is not a specific character, they're a reflection of the people who has played Undertale and they're speaking to us at the beginning because they already experienced something like this.
Now I should add to this (because I actually forgot to put this lol), I don't think the being we see at the end of Undertale genocide route is the same as the one Asriel had found and lived with. In fact I don't think their name is Chara to begin with (which it isn't really, given the origins of the name Chara). "Chara" the fallen child having connections to Deltarune not only would not make sense but would also take away from both of the stories as well. Anything and everything I have talked about refers to specifically and only to "Chara" the demon.
But in Undertale many characters have non-diegetic name origins. E.g Toriel is named after the word 'tutorial'. And Sans comes 'comic sans serif', a font name, where 'sans' is French for 'without'. So, yes, Sans' name is literally 'Without'. None of this invalidates them being regular, in-universe characters. Toriel being named after a component of a video game doesn't immediately mean that she's some omnipotent entity. Also, for all we know, 'Chara' could be a regular given name in the Undertale universe. For example in Polish 'kara' means punishment - fitting, wouldn't it be? After all, that's exactly what Chara is at the end of genocide. In Hebrew 'Hara' means mountain/hill (but is a place name, not a word or given name). And, you know, Chara falls down a *mountain* ... In Italian Cara is an actual given name and means dear/beloved. Which could parallel how dear and beloved Chara was to the Dreemurrs. In Galic Irish 'cara' means friend... well, Chara was Asriel's friend Interestingly, in Japanese 'kara' can mean emptiness, or shell/husk. Now that's food for thought! Except in the Japanese version of the game Chara's name has been changed to 'Kyara' thus no longer fitting this. Hmm...
Very informative video, although I do think there is a lot of willfully ignoring the fact that the player/character difference is much more pronounced in DeltaRune (starting with the Ch 1 epilogue) and that they're should be a reason for this.
Ok, I'm not too far into the video yet, but I just HAVE to talk about your opinions on the player not being apart of the plot, because I respectfully quite strongly disagree. What about the ENTIRETY of snowgrave? Kris quite clearly doesn't want to do any of that and Noelle even says that they're hearing a voice unlike Kris'. If we're going by your own theories I guess you could make some argument about how it's Asriel doing all that. Now we could argue about the likelihood of that being the case all day, but even assuming that you're right that's a very out there conclusion for the average person to make on their first playthrough, so Toby definitely intended for people to at least think that the player is an integral part of the story. Plus we also run into logistical issues if the player isn't a major element in the story. In Undertale, how exactly is this random kid that fell into the underground have enough determination to bring the consciousness of the first fallen human back from the dead, overpower Flowey (who even notes how extraordinary it is that someone out there is more determined than him), and win a fight against an actual god? Gee, it's almost as if they're being controlled by a being from a higher plane of existence who's allowing them to do those things. Finally, specifically about the idea of the player being the angel, Asgore literally confirms that they (or at least Frisk or Chara) are in an alternate version of his fight. Now just to be clear, I'm not arguing that Toby's going to try and say something crazy like Geoff took the player's actual soul and put it in Deltarune. As you've pointed out, that would make no sense as the player knows that didn't actually happen as Geoff is a fictional character that physically can't do that. I'm merely saying that Deltarune and Undertale use the real world as a part of their story, and not that they pretend like their story is a part of the real world, if that makes sense.
Going paragraph by paragraph: 1) My stance is well documented. We control Asriel. Asriel controls Kris. Everything has clear answers in that framework. 2) Or Frisk is just a very determined person? I don't think we need a meta answer here. Humans are well established to be far more powerful than monsters, and Frisk could very well be a special human. Also they don't "win" against Asriel. They convince him to let go of his power willingly. Big difference. Similar deal with Omega Flowey. Frisk just survives. They don't win. 3) No idea what you're talking about with Asgore.
@@JaruJaruJ 1) I know, I specifically acknowledged your theories explaining it. However, that still doesn't change the fact that Toby quite clearly intended the average player to at least think that he was doing a meta narrative with the player. 2) I can understand Frisk just being particularly determined to specific extent, but with how much determination they have they are basically a god. Flowey/Asriel is repeatedly shocked at just how much determination they have, to the point where Flowey doesn't even seem to know how it's physically possible (and Flowey seems to know basically everything). It's stated that Asriel with even just 1 human soul had the ability to kill an entire village of humans giving him everything they've got, and yet Asriel with the equivalent of 7 human souls at full power is powerless to kill this one random kid? 3) th-cam.com/video/XBBqg9UVuhk/w-d-xo.html Thanks for reading my comment and replying, and extra thanks if you're reading this!
Aw, dang, I just saw one two days ago about Ms. Boom being the knight! Though it was too late to get into this video, I was wondering about your thoughts on it. I know we’ve never seen her, but we know Berdly works for her (so she exists), plus she’s connected to Gerson, plus she doesn’t NOT have a dialogue portrait! It’s plausible, imo.
I'd say it's somewhere between Mayor Knight and Alvin Knight in my estimation. Probably a high C-Tier. She's never appeared and hasn't been characterized, so I generally don't love it, but the stuff that supports Alvin being the Knight does technically apply to her, so I can't discount her entirely. It's just not an option I find particularly compelling.
I will admit I completely drank the punch when it came to the metanarrative player as character theory. While I like the themes, going through the other meta theories makes me liken it to something like the "it was all a dream" or "Kris is crazy" theories, which I think are so tacky and devalue the story so much. Thank you for more analysis Jaru!
I feel like ignoring the role of the player requires overlooking massively important information, and trying to remove the player at all costs is silly. The theories that revolve completely around the player are kinda cringeworthy, but they undoubtedly have a role in the game and are a part of the motivations/actions of the characters, whether that be Chara in UT via the final scene in geno, or Ralsei's behavior in a few places and the entire weird route in DR.
@@evilness3404 Not necessarily. If you treat the player as purely a part of the meta-narrative, and others like Frisk, Chara, and so on as being our analog in the regular narrative, then the player being canon is not necessary.
I feel like for at least some of the theories, you shouldve taken "player" to mean "red soul". Otherwise you ended up voting lowly for a number of theories because of an essentially unrelated theory just because some people treat "player" and "red soul" as synonymous.
@@JaruJaruJ Trust that the people that actually care about you and your content and don't assume the worst about your character know better. Keep up the great work.
3:03:11 I think this just comes from the different perspectives you guys are coming from. Jaru likes to build on established stuff and then have fun by creating some reasonable fanfic around it. Not everyone shares your view that part of the fun of theories is being wrong, though. Others like spookydood or Andrew want to use a more scientific approach and follow the evidence wherever ever it may lead (which may be multiple plausible paths that they want to point out as possibilities). You call it analysis but others will call it theory-crafting. Spookydood or Andrew don’t hate Jaru-esque theories, they just want to make sure that people don’t take them as fact with no other possible ways the story could go (like the people in your knight video comment section who adamantly stand-by Kris = knight.)
I feel like people have extremely low expectations for Deltarune without even realizing it. Undertale is old enough that I think we've mostly forgotten just how wild it was the first time to have the entire game repeatedly crash during a boss fight, and "Is Gaster good or bad?" is far less interesting to me than "What is the weirdest thing you can do with GameMaker Studio 2?" If anyone has earned the right to kick back and write a simple fantasy soap opera, it's Toby, but I'd honestly be crushed if he settled for as little as most of these theories promise. (to clarify, I don't mean that fans should be trying to predict game design decisions, but that the methods by which Toby explores ideas are historically much more sophisticated than what most people seem to remember, and that bums me out because it means we've generally become numb to part of what made UT so groundbreaking.)
I feel like toby is doing well if hes implying a real player. Having asriel be the possessor seems strange to me, and kind of out of character. I like the implied prescence of the player as a character, and having the game seemingly acknowledge you only to turn around and go "HAH you're not real TRICKED" feels strange. The player doesn't need to be perpetually acknowledged in order for them to be real, and it isn't a necessity for a good story.
I agree. A sudden plot twist about how we weren't controlling/playing as Kris this whole time, we were actually controlling *this random ghost*, and *they* were controlling Kris would be surprising and strange
@@crazygamingoscar7325 You didn't miss anything, I made an attempt at adding emphasis and failed the formatting 🫡 Just imagine that "random ghost" and "they" are in italic
The theory about Noelle having a predisposition for violence when stressed or attacked makes sense, especially when you consider how she low key visions herself a victim of being bullied by Susie and submits to those who are intimidating or menacing. This behavior probably surfaced after the disappearance of Dess. It's like flight or fight pushed to the extreme because she actively looks for opportunities to frighten herself.
This was very fun to watch. I like seeing these videos. To see all the theories of the community and to see a little bit more about Jaru. Got to see what you like and dislike. Sorry to hear about the yandere stuff. Im sure most of us players and fans dont think the worst of you for the jokes. Some people just like to assume the worst. Or want to argue
Glad you enjyoed! And yeah, no worries. Some folks felt very strongly about the topic and chose to be hateful rather than kind. It's a shame, but I'll be fine. x)
The gas leak theory comes from ScottFalco He made a joke about at the end of chapter 1 Kris just wanted pie and it turned out he did go and eat all the pie Then made a similar joke to his chapter 2 video
The asriel is dead theory is probably the most retarded theory i've ever heard. Mainly because it's based on the stupid thought process of "iT's WhAt ToBy WoUlD dO". Like, no, you don't know toby. Don't act like you can "predict" what he's going to do based on stuff he's ALREADY done. Asriel doesn't have to be dead, him being away from town for what seems like years is enough of a paralel. He doesn't need to be dead, especially since the dreemurr family is even more distant in undertale, meanwhile in deltarune toriel and asgore are just a few houses away. It just feels like the average crackhead theory that people meme about.
I'm surprised The Knight = Vessel theory is actually decently high up in the rankings 😅 I came up with the theory because it sounded like something the story would go with, mostly because nobody else would think of it. It's sounds basic (and a bit generic at this point in this extremely large community) but also, I think it would genuinely surprise a lot of people because Toby knows most of the fan base feedback is on the internet (mostly TH-cam) and story-wise, it sounds amazing in my head. 😅 "Gaster and you create the ultimate vessel with a personality you give them gets discard by..... someone, and Gaster picks up the pieces and makes the discarded vessel 'The Roaring Knight' who convinces King, Queen, and the other leaders (in their own way) to support Gaster's cause! It's GENIUS!!!!" 😅
That's awesome! I can definitely see why you'd like that theory! I hope my wording didn't come across as mean or harsh! I really meant no disrespect to the theorists in question. 😅
I'm kinda confused, maybe I misread what Jaru was saying but why is he so antagonistic towards player theories. Finding the player stuff less interesting than the general universe is fine (and I'd even say I agree) but he's acting almost like Toby Fox hasn't done a lot to foreshadow the player being important in the plot. Like I was under the impression the player was absolutely going to be important in some aspect of the plot so I'm a little confused to see him so sure that it would be a bad decision.
I've always considered the player to be a part of the meta-narrative, and not a part of the regular narrative. This is because us becoming a part of the regular narrative would undermine the stakes of the story by having a god-like entity introduced who views the whole world as nothing more than a game.
@@JaruJaruJ I have a lot I could say but at risk of sounding incoherent I'll just say I disagree, the player has already been made important in multiple different aspects (weird route, vessel creation, gaster talking to us the player, kris clearly (imo) not liking being controlled, etc) I personally think it would be pretty lame to set up a conflict as unique as player vs main character and not take advantage of it in the main narrative. I can't say I understand your perspective but I can't really judge, I'm certainly no master of undertale/deltarune lore. I will say though that I don't see how them being in a game makes them any less real as characters, all of the events in the game happen to them regardless of whether or not they are in a game, I like videogames for their ability to tell narratives through their game-y-ness not in spite of it. Whatever, I could go on but its better I stop here, keep up the good content, I couldn't imagine spending this much time on a tierlist lmao.
Jaru I think it’s very clear you would really like OMORI. I won’t give more details than that in case you haven’t heard much about it before but I’m just saying if you ever kickstart the playthrough channel again that would be some lucrative content.
I'm simply replying to bring more attention to this comment lol, ignore it if you want. But yeah I think Jaru would really like the nuance to the player character.
Probably haven't heard a lot of these theories, that makes this more interesting hearing new theories also I can't believe Shayy doesn't have a TH-cam channel based off the description lol
A personal theory of mine re: Wierd Route which I think could be cool is if Berdly lives, but he's changed somehow. Maybe he doesn't remember anything, maybe he's bedridden/comatose for the rest of the game but regardless he remains as a haunting reminder of what Noelle did in her "dream". This is not to say Lightners can't die in the Dark World - Noelle did say she didn't know that spell, maybe she really did cast it wrong? That'd be a very Toby Fox thing to do. Point is, I can imagine a bunch of ways where Berdly surviving the wierd route could be as unsettling, if not even moreso than him dying. But honestly I'd say this is a C tier theory - I just think it might be cool.
@@JaruJaruJ I actually had an idea for a really uncomfortable scene after writing that comment, going off Berdly not remembering anything. You have an increasingly frayed and unsettled Noelle trying to broach the subject of what happened to Berdly, but he assumes she means she "froze" him in Super Smashing Fighters and brushes it off, which gets Noelle increasingly upset and desperate trying to get Berdly to remember, partially to get answers and partially to prove to herself it actually happened. Berdly however just thinks she's getting wierdly upset over a videogame match he doesn't even remember, and thinking it might be some underlying emotional issue, tries to gently ask if everythings okay at home. I think it'd be amazing because it's almost like unintentional gaslighting - Berdly is undermining Noelle's own experiences, but he doesn't remember what happened either.
Ive seen a few other theories that didnt make it on this tier list, but if you ever do a part two for this tier list the two i really would like to see you cover are Angel's Hell by Spookydood and The Twilight Zone theory by Value Network, both theories that make some pretty interesting connections.
So, I've actually got a personal theory in regards to the world of Deltatune in particular that I'd like your vote on. We know that Toby Fox stated that Deltarune takes place in a different world from Undertale, but I theorize that the worlds are not so dissimilar. In fact, they are only separated by one singular event; more a consequence of the Butterfly Effect than the whole world being built from the ground up. Consider this: Deltarune takes place in a world where Chara never ate the buttercups and perished. Perhaps fear stopped them from going through with their plan; perhaps Asgore and Toriel got wise to it and stopped them; perhaps Asriel put his foot down and stopped the Fallen Child from doing something stupid and self-destructive for the "betterment of Monsterkind." Whatever the case, Chara never took their own life, Asriel never took in their soul, and the two never died on that fateful day, however long ago. A day, I theorize, which wasn't that far back; at most ten years or so. With the two Royal Children still alive, the Underground never fell into despair. Asgore never declared human lives forfeit and, as such, never formed the Royal Guard. This explains why Undyne had both of her eyes; as she never had to rise through the ranks of the Royal Guard, we can presume whatever fight she previously lost her eye in never took place. This also explains why the two Royal Guard characters are still just friends; they never had the events occur where they were brought together. And lets talk about the children. With no hunt for humans, the children who fell into the Underground were welcomed as friends. While we can't assume they were all friendly, this means that, with the Fallen Child's help, the barrier could have been broken by the combined efforts of the children before Frisk even fell into the Underground. This would explain why Asgore has the flowers colored like the seven human souls; it's in remembrance/honor to those children, who likely returned to their families upon leaving the Underground. The Fallen Child, with their implied dark past, may have decided to stay with their found family instead, opting to not return to what was implied to be an abusive home life. This also would mean that, while she still became the Royal Scientist after Gaster's shattering, Alpyhs never performed the same Determination experiments that she did prior, meaning the Amalgamates never came into being. This sadly does mean those monsters just perished, which we can see confirmed in the Graveyard. Also, this would mean Alphys likely never returned to the Garbage Dump after becoming the Royal Scientist, as she never had that same sense of self-loathing after her catastrophic failure with the Amalgamates. This means she never would have met Undyne, explaining why the two don't know one-another now. And, for the last bit on Alphys, she *also* wouldn't have made Mettaton, at least not in the same capacity as she had in Undertale. After all, Mettaton was made to hunt humans, but the monster who inhabited it had their own goals and personality that dominated the robot's whole persona. Without the need for a human-hunting robot, the idea was never driven to completion and was left a dream. This might go to explaining why NEO was nothing more than a discarded dream, why Mettaton appears to still be a ghost - or at least still lives beside Nabstablook in their old house. Most importantly, this explains why Asriel is alive, and reveals to us the identity of Kris. After all, we never knew the Fallen Child's real name, as you stated previously. So why *couldn't* Kris be them, but just ten years or so older? Now in the tail end of high school, while Asriel has gone on to college. This would correlate with Kris' affinity for knifes, sharing the Fallen Child's "spooky face," and matching their relationship to the Dreemur family. It's my belief that Toriel and Asgore's divorce is purely a normal one, born from emotional incompatibility and not child murder, which is why Asgore is actually trying to mend those bridges and be her friend. Now, how does this affect things going forward? Well, if my theory is correct, then it can give us a clear line of logic to connect events going forward. For instance, Papyrus - whenever he actually appears, - will not be as obsessed with becoming a member of the Royal Guard. He's likely never even become friends with Undyne - which makes sense, as Sans has stated that he doesn't have any friends. This means, the bubbly, lanky skeleton will likely need a new method to try and become popular, fitting into many people's theories that Papyrus was tricked into becoming the Knight to seek popularity in the Dark Worlds; places of adventure and wonder. That's just one of the many implications of this theory, but more importantly, it's an example of how discering the most logical direction this world came from can also help us predict it's future. It's also my theory that Gaster - or Geoff, - wanted to see how us as the players would react given certain situations and stimuli, that he guided the pattern of this world's story to see what we would do, to survey our responses and study our actions. He changed the little detail of the Fallen Child's death, then altered some more later down the line - things like the possibility that Magic doesn't exist in the Light World and other things of that nature. Now, he watches us, recording our actions as a whole. I actually wonder sometimes, if Deltarune might go even more meta and claim data on our choices in some unseen tally elsewhere. Like, if Toby Fox is keenly aware of things like... When did the first person begin the Snowgrave route? How many people have done that route? In Chapter 1, how many people went purely Pacifist and how many people craved violence? I mean, Deltarune was originally called Survey_Program after all, implying it's role as an information gathering tool. Toby Fox knows at this point that anything placed in the game's code can and will be discovered. However, information he himself gathers on his end of things would be beyond our reach. And what better way to sucker punch us with a meta message than to make us take a grim look at our reality as a species; at the cold hard reality that we as a species are willing to do terrible things in the name of discovery, exploration, and satisfying our curiosity. This was, of course, the message of the Genocide route, but this time, we'll have a character to potentially parallel us in our drive for discovery; Gaster himself. Now, I don't believe this will be used in such a way as to directly affect the characters, but rather be a way for Gaster to actively interact with us, the player, and bring a mirror onto our actions not just as an individual, but as a species. Another small mini-theory is that Gaster doesn't want to kill anyone himself; he seeks to see our actions and wishes to keep his ducks in a row, so should he want a person back, he could, at any time, bring them back into the game. And that's where Dess comes in. She was removed to give Noelle a particular path in her life, a goal to achieve and a fear she wishes to prevent. Dess' disappearance is a major driving force for her, and without it, she might have forever been the shy, reserved girl. So, to make her take those steps, Gaster pulled Dess from play... Hence, why she is lost in the Code. He did not wish to kill her, as that would be to much; she would cease to be a piece he could use then, a variable that would be set in stone, rather than... well, variable. As for Toby Fox lying on things... As a DM for DnD games for *years* know, I know that sometimes, a good storyteller needs to lie or tell half truths to catch people unawares. That's a side effect of media today; Toby knew what directions people would take with their theorizing and could have laid traps and pitfalls to throw us off. After all, Toby is not the voice of God; he's an annoying dog, working away on a computer. He's a troll who hits us with a car. He sends awkward pictures involving an excessive amount of soap bubbles. I don't think he's above telling us a lie or half truth to keep us guessing and questioning his honesty. But yikes, that was a lot. This is a weighty theory, and I've put a lot of thought into it; I don't think I've ever seen anyone else directly state this theory, but I might be wrong.
For me personally, the chess theory is bad because it really doesn't work in other languages, because all the pieces named differently. And Toby is a big fan of japanese language, so It would be kinda weird to have this big thing just not work in the second main language of the game
i love how being bad at naming things is just part of the asgore lineage, and you just know thats true because in undertale when asriel turned into a flower he literally named himself flowey
Jaru being so excited about The Berdler being dead is so funny lol But can you imagine if Snowgrave were just a easter egg? Like, there won't be any other "routes" in the game, just that time, and the only thing it does it remove Berdly from the game entirely.
10:25. I don't get it. Why would Flowey ask Chara not to kill everybody, and then ask us not to do it. He said "i'm talking about YOU" If you say "that's because we must let Chara posses us" but then he's still talking to us.
@@zeo4481 no, I think Jaru just doesn't want it. He said that he didn't like it, but it's already confirmed that the player is a very important part of the game
I'm just informing you that there are those in the community who don't believe Flowey is directly addressing the player, and that's why he uses Chara's name. I'm not saying I agree with that interpretation. Although, I will say, there's absolutely no confirmation that the player a "very important part of the game." I don't know what evidence you're citing to make that claim, but I guarantee it's not "confirmation."
@@JaruJaruJ Yeah, I guess that there's just as much evidence of the player being a very important part of the game as not a part of the game, but I think we do need to acknowledge that they have a part in the story
@@JaruJaruJ In my opinion, the game does so much, even from the very beginning, to try and separate the player from Kris, from the entire intro sequence to more subtle things like Kris’ name showing up in the UI and tone-of-voice during lines of dialogue like after Spamton NEO. I feel like if the player wasn’t important to the game to a major extent, it would be strange to have so many separations of Kris and the player rather than just having Kris as a character for us to cast our personality onto. To be fair though, we only have so much content in the game so far that we’ll just have to wait and see for new info that can shed light on this.
I love Oberon Smog, the fact that Gerson was the direct link to the deltarune name in undertale makes him so interesting in his lack of presence in Deltarune, so having Oberon be the knight is amazing since it FINALLY gives Gerson the presence that’s been practically built up from Undertale
with the comments about people saying asriel is dead, i went back to the chapter one intro and asriel is stated to be coming back home "next week" (as of DR chapter 1's drive with toriel) it's a very offhand mention that IS valid to have not noticed, but i still think it's important
i'll also drop a quickly brainstormed theory that kris is making (more) dark worlds possibly so, when asriel comes home, they can make asriel stay with them forever (or some variation of it, like perhaps just wanting some sort of adventure or to 'share' the darkworld with him) kris seems to cherish their time with asriel considering the hot cocoa interaction and might even idolize him in some way (and maybe they even want to defend those memories from the player? i.e kris refusing to see asriels cyberworld room, but thats a tangent im not ready for)
Wait, how does Noelle not interesting to you because she has "no trauma" when there's the whole thing about Dess missing that left her to freeze or what have you during the spelling bee game with Berdly? You might say "oh Noelle had overcame this trauma since she was a kid" but did she?? She still think about her sister to this day, her father is in pretty bad condition despite him trying to reassure her and her mother overworking her so much and being quite controlling of her from what we hear about her have left her very, very meek and easy to manipulate by some peoples in the present. That to me show there's already something off with her, without needing the "Noelle attacked Darkners" theory to be right. (I doubt Snowgrave would have happened the way it did if Noelle was a perfect fine girl who was just shy is what i mean) I haven't finished the video yet (it's a long one after all), so maybe you elaborate on that more later, but this part felt weird to me.
It's not that Noelle is uninteresting because she has no trauma. It's that Noelle isn't traumatized in an interesting way. Her being traumatized by Dess' disappearance, and this causing her to be meek and easy to manipulate, isn't active. It's passive. It doesn't prompt her to do interesting things. It prompts her to be a passenger in life, rather than a character who actively pursues things. That's boring to me. Susie being violent and going off on her own was the most interesting stage of Susie, for me. Kris removing their sou land doing stuff on their own is the most interesting stage of Kris, for me. If Noelle only does interesting stuff when she's forced to, then that makes whoever is forcing her interesting, and not Noelle herself. Also, it's not like a character NEEDS trauma to be interesting. But Noelle's regular personality bores me. She's a sweet, smart, popular girl who is shy and has a crush. That's as generic as it gets. So her getting some darkness injected into her character would boost my interest. I hope that all makes sense.
@@JaruJaruJ Feel that injecting darkness as the risk to make her more passive and another kind of one note than what you mentioned imo, if the snowgrave route is any indication (also that trauma with Dess feel linked to the potential "Noelle Attacked Darkner" accident, if that's what really happened, that mean it isn't that passive in the present, it's just more buried you could say). I understand that Noelle regular personality isn't as "strong" as the others (kinda like Ralsei), but I feel there's other way to make a character interesting like you mentioned without resorting to adding more "trauma" on top of 'em - again, like you mentioned . I agree her current problem are more "passive" (though her father illness and her mother are definitely problems she gotta deal in the present, so she will have to be active one way or the other in their cases (abusive parent and probably-soon-dead parent is no fun business to deal with)), but the regular route as still has her grow out of that shyness that's been plaguing her for a long time thanks to being around Kris - a childhood friend of her who she still like despite (or because of even, her love of scary things in general is something that make her stand out among other "nice girl" characters type) their weirdo attitude and love of pranks around her - her repeated encounter with Berdly finally give her the courage to essentially stop him being so overprotective of her (dude's ready to bash her head with bullets to "save" her for crying out loud!) . Eventually culminating with her not get bossed around by Queen (who has lots of parallel with Noelle mom, again a present problem in her life) and tell her to buzz off at long last after a whole chapter of following Queen order or not fighting back at all. Note she tell Queen to buzz off while her friends are quite literally getting crushed to death by a giant robot hand in front of her. That take some balls to pull off that Noelle of Chapter 1 and start of 2 probably wouldn't have without her adventure. (also it's nothing serious and is more a gag, but her getting over her fear of rats is also a nice little exemple of her overcoming her fears and growing, ahem, stronger you could say) All of that show to me that Noelle atm is intentionally showns as one of the most "passive" member of the group at the start -alongside Ralsei, who I also believe will grow out of his meekness and worship of the heroes/the prophecy thanks to their dialogues on acid lake - so that she will grow out of her "trauma" and become a stronger person in the future in a healthy way. (aka the opposite of snowgrave) Some of what I say do hinge in waiting more chapters to see where that growth will bring her, but what we have now is, imo imo lmao, a good, interesting start already, and more importantly, it mean she has goals to strive for. Which is always a important thing to have if you want a character to not be one long boring note. I don't want to say you have to like everythin' I pointed out -everyone got their own tastes after all, and at the end of the day, it's Toby's story, not ours, so we don't have a final point on the matter, we're just sharin' opinion- bzt I guess all i'm trying to say is that, I think Toby can make characters interesting without making them more "unhinged" or "broken" in the process. (Ironically considering your list, but I think of Papyrus as a good exemple of a character that's interesting all the while not being broken at any point in Undertale. Something something him acting very hammy and funny yet he is actually very lonely and unpopular despite working hard, yet he still try his very best and is very, very supportive of his lazy and secretly very depressed brother despite not liking his puns and said lazy attitude, also also while's a nice guy, he's not a cinnamon bun who can't defend himself or doesn't know what's right or wrong . Abridged version, it's late here) That's all I got. Not sure if I answer back, but hope it's a interesting read nonethless.
I can certainly see Noelle doing all that. I just don't seem myself enjoying it too much since it's so pedestrian. But hey, to each their own. If you enjoy characters like Papyrus and Noelle, that's great! I just don't.
I very disagree with your opinion on the player being detached from Deltarune story, there's way too many points leading to that being the case, and it's true they can all be explained another way, but at that point it introduces more holes in the puzzle that can be easily fit with "The Player" piece. Also, I agree about your Undertale point with the player meta narrative, but remember that Deltarune and Undertale are very different from each other. Very different. Also I always thought Homophobic Toriel is a joke rather than actual theory lmao. And like with all running jokes, it can be either funny or cringe depending on the context used.
Finally finished the video. Was actually really interesting to see another people’s perspectives! Obviously we agreed on what were obvious memes, but I was kinda surprised at some of the things you were critical of that I have spouted off to my friends as my personal head-cannon. Each one of your videos make me want to start posting my own theories more and more but I already have 2 jobs and I’m like wow editing videos does not sound like a fun addition to all that. Maybe I will just make the laziest visuals possible and record everything in one take…
Just when I needed an overly long and elaborate Deltarune theory video, Jaru delivers. Man, this guy puts a TON of effort into his videos, you have my respect
It's great to see your videos on my weekend youtube lineup again. :) I can't wait for the next three chapters to drop. Your theory crafting will be going wild!!!
personally, ralsei liking the player and not kris is a theory i like, but not in the context of ralsei knowing about the player. what i do like is the context of kris not being all that fond of ralsei and that what he does like about them is the player's influence (my only issue with this being linked to the player is whoever is playing may just not like ralsei either)
The mad lad did it. He actually ranked every theory ever made™ about Deltarune! Thanks again for discussing my Ralsei Hometown theory! You did a really good job of summarizing it. Even if it turns out to be wrong I had a fun time putting it together :)
I’ve never heard of your “Asriel is dead and possessing Kris” theory but I LOVE IT. I never even considered the fact that Asriel could be dead and Toriel doesn’t know because she thinks he’s still at college. That would be so insane and so sad and kind of creepy
My most evidenceless and deranged Deltarune theory is that Asgores gonna frickin die. His life sucks and then he dies. I don't know how, maybe he'll die protecting the fun gang in a dark fountain against the knight, or from acute divorce. It doesn't really matter. The best piece of 'evidence' for this prediction is that he doesn't survive in any ending in Undertale except for Pacifist, so it'd sorta rhyme if you couldn't save him in a normal playthrough.
Thanks for going to the trouble of putting this all together! Really interesting and I personally agree with most of it because my favourite theories are the ones that make the narrative more exciting and give us more insight into the characters. No matter how the actual games go, I really, really appreciate all the theory crafting and analysis the community does because it greatly enriches the experience of these games, and keeps them alive between releases.
Personally Ralsei being a parallel to flowey but also a reversed image of flowey is great. Flowey is basically the opposite of Ralsei’s surface display.
I think Ralsei is actually the resurrected sister of Asriel and Asgore simply used anagrams to come up with another crappy name for her. Ralsei does guide Kris, but they look up to Kris as an older sibling.
@@justice8718”resurrected sister of asriel”?? where tf you come up with this stuff it makes no sense because ralsei is a boy, not girl and im pretty sure there would be traces of a sister.
@@eletgres519 Noelle doesn't see anything in Ralsei Tea and treats Ralsei as if she is dead. Ralsei's mother (Toriel as represented by Queen) ignores Ralsei and also treats her like a dead person, a person that is no longer is with them. Kris is uncomfortable by Ralsei and he, Toriel, and Noelle are very aware of the Dreemur Household and their dark secrets. To him, it's like watching a person coming back to life as a zombie and treating you as their eldest brother, since you are a part of her family now. Susie has little to no knowledge about the original Ralsei and only she has a very positive response to Ralsei Tea, since she is only aware of the Ralsei revived in the Darkner world. So, she sees nothing wrong with her no does she flat out ignore her existence.
Thanks for watching! And to be clear, this is just me giving my opinions about what theories I would like to be true! It is not me judging the quality of the theories, the competence of the theorists, or the likelihood of being true! I did not intend to be mean-spirited with this, only to have fun giving some opinions! I hope nobody felt burned by my words, and if you do, I apologize!
Honestly I want your theories to be true (because yours are great and understandable and somehow you don’t seem like a total crackhead to me) but some of these others are good too, it wouldn’t be bad if some of yours and the others were correct because it’d be a great combination
About the Yandere thing: Dont worry about those ppl Jaru, they are just a bunch of morons who want to be offended by everything(basically casual twitter moment)
I'm happy that my suggestion (Ice-E) is pretty much the only one you weren't hemming and hawing about you just loved it. Because of how unhinged and plausible it is that Toby would be that crazy.
Also, hello. As far as I could tell I'm the one that you were talking about that came up with that particular possible ch.3 weird route manipulation tactic. About 2 months ago on my other account (ForestSkiesOfficial) on a video from RedHeadDJ titled "My ULTIMATE THEORY on the FUTURE CHAPTERS of DELTARUNE You may very well have seen it elsewhere and before that, but I don't think I had seen it anywhere else.
Generally when I hear sans is darkener theory, the crux of the argument is that he bleeds blood before he dies. We know from the fatal animation of when darkners get hit by snow grave and from a line from lancer that darkners do bleed. So we know sans has traits that don’t match monsters, humans, animals, and whatever flowey is, so people land on darkner as it’s the only thing with mostly matching traits. However we haven’t ever seen a way for darkners to be in the light world. So ultimately we don’t know what kind of creature he is. Probably something we’ve never heard of. About the only thing we can be sure of is he’s not a monster. Maybe the correct answer is the simplest. He’s a skeleton. I mean monsters don’t bleed according to undertale.
No idea what happens on Deltarune Twitter or in the comments section of your most popular videos. sounds bad for your health tbh!
I get that this fanbase is intense, and in the “ralsei = knight” section you say as much yourself- your experience as a prominent and active part of the community is colouring your opinions as thousands of people respond with varying levels of insight and patience. I can deal with hearing some of your frustration with that up to a certain point. But over the course of three hours, when I am quite clearly demonstrating my interest and open-mindedness to specifically your opinions, it’s kind of insulting-which I doubt you intend. if you see this, I hope you think about some of your phrasing, especially in these very long videos.
Please don’t talk to me like you’re picturing a faceless mob of flaming pitchforks ready to jump down your throat-
like much of your audience, i have been patiently sat listening to your hot takes for literal days of my life.
My personal pet theory is that the "one" ending refers to the time loop theory, meaning that there's a huge branching tree of possible ways the plot can go, but _only one_ prevents The Roaring, which resets time a la Majora's Mask. So all other endings aren't an _ending,_ just a reset.
That's my favorite! I REALLY hope that's true! I pray for it! That would be what it takes for DELTARUNE to surpass UNDERTALE, in my opinion!
My personal theory was that there was one ending, but the context of how you got there changed whether or not it was a good ending. I’m not entirely sold on it anymore because it doesn’t feel like the kind of thing you’d see in a dream.
That theory, on the other-hand, seems like the kind of thing you could see in a fever dream. I’ve had stress dreams where I’m stuck in a loop of sorts. If Toby had one of those but eventually found an “escape” from it, that ending could be what inspired deltarune.
imagine if this one ending just deletes your game because you're the one reseting the game
My personal theory for the "one ending" is that it's in a similar way to Sonic Adventure dark and light stories. There is an end to each story, but they are not THE end of the story as a whole. That comes with the final story. In that sense, I believe this is where the 3 save files come in- one file for each primary timeline, Pacifist, Aggressive, and Weird, possibly. This also brings up interesting questions as to the purpose of copying or deleting save files within their universe.
Now that I think about it there is some parallels between ocarina of time-majora’s mask and undertale-deltarune
Your dedication to theorizing, and following along with theories from others in the community is unreal!
Hi
Aye. Nice to see you here too. Hope to see you cover deltarune when chapter 3-5 release.
Wow it’s you I didn’t know you would be here
@@GodChaos333 I'm eagerly awaiting the release! I'm also mentally preparing myself for the possibility that it releases either on the Sept or Oct anniversary, and that I'll be doing nothing but playing that game and makes videos on it for like 2 months after xD
@@2leftthumbsglad to hear it. And we all waiting with baited breath for the other chapter. We all just want more deltarune goodness
Thanks for having me on to rant about the worst theory I have ever heard in my life 🤣
It was absolutely my pleasure! Thank you for coming by! xD
Very well said rant Shay. That theory can only be a huge troll. You cannot be serious. Why would Toby Fox make a mother figure who is trying to be a good person act homophobic? It makes zero sense
@@GodChaos333 to pivot into extreme devils advocate, just because someone is kind doesn't mean they wouldn't be prejudiced. Soft prejudice exists everywhere. You wouldn't run the gays outta town, but you don't want them there.
Now granted I think this theory is pre-owned dogwater, but as I said, devils advocate :)
To play slight devils advocate, I can *maybe* see Toriel being uncomfortable around same sex relationships/gender nonconformity being compelling, *if* she’s still otherwise well meaning. It could give her some moral texture - showing that even kind people like Toriel can still have biases that are coloured by their environment and upbringing.
Not gonna defend Asgore/Rudy being gay adulterers though - for one Toriel would be *right* to be pissed off in that situation, and guys can be lifelong friends and *not* be secretly gay. Shocking, I know.
@@Colddirector I just really feel like Toby wouldn't put those themes in his game without clearly stating that those themes will be in the game from the start. I feel like it could be jarring for some LGBT fans where, this world where seemingly gender doesn't matter all that much, and gender non conformity is entirely accepted, suddenly has a character with those gripes, especially the character who is basically the arbiter of wholesomeness and familial love in both games.
Either way, people need to stop killing the concept of the bromance.
I am like 90% sure that the original gas leak theory was a joke Scott Falco made at the end of his video on chapter 2 after his joke explanation of Kris pulling out a knife to eat the pie in chapter one ended up being correct
I thought that was from that one animation
Gas leak theory actually makes some sence since kris didnt have their soul and DT while creating a fountain
I always though of it as a half joke theory and half continuation of fake out cliff hangers
The gas leak ""theory"" was always a joke.
Heck, it was my first thought after seeing the end of chapter 2 😂
I personally LOVE the idea of the player being the angel, not because of the lore or anything, but because it has the potential to be scary as fuck, specifically in the snowgrave route. It makes me think of the line "who have I been praying to all this time?" from the Mandela Catalogue. The idea that us, the thing that has the potential to go around and kill things while possessing some kid, is the thing that the town has built a religion around, it's just- idk I just think it's creepy and I like it (don't really want it to be canon though, I think it'd work better in fanfic)
Its the edgy creepypasta version of Deltarune imo.
I love that idea, but its probably not actually the case
kind of makes me think about the theory that the dragon from mother 3 is the player
Kris was an alternate all along.
Oh god that *is* terrifying. It’s like, they’re on the cusp of being aware but never actually understanding or being entirely there yet
Yeah. It always makes me sad when Jaru outright dismisses anything to do with the player just for being the player. Yeah most player theories are… how do I say dumb bullshit? But stuff like this is pretty interesting. Especially since in UT the player *is* (in a way) the angel. It’s kinda the point of the game.
‘flowey is the goat’ is a sentence that made me laugh unnecessarily hard
xD
Well he used to be Asriel
@@phictionofgrandeur2387thatsthejoke
Jaru genuinely being flabbergastered at the homophobia theory is priceless
FlabbberGASTERed?
ONGBYhcdujdjskwnebdhdbsheheu
flabbergastered
FlabberGastered
fazerblasted
@@darkmodeenjoyer3367gaster
Ralsei being a girl would be heartbreaking, as a feminine boy myself I love when there are fictional male characters who don't shy away from being feminine. Ralsei liking to look cute, or asking if he looks pretty while wearing the ribbon in chapter one is so relieving and motivating. The idea that if your a feminine boy you must actually be a girl is disheartening sometimes, and I know we aren't a minority or anything, but having some representation is really nice.
Sure! And I'm fine with folks wanting that! I was just discussing how I'd feel about it if it turned out to be true. Rest assured, feminine boy Ralsei is also something that I enjoy. x)
@@JaruJaruJ of course, no resentment or nothing, I loved the video and all your others XP
Agreed, it would be disappointing and idiotic.
eh, just dont worry about femininity and masculinity. It really doesnt matter. But if you like it its fine
i completely agree! i can respect the angle jaru had, but i think it would be disrespectful to imply that men who are feminine are secretly girls, and if they're not then they're lying to themselves. i don't think toby would do that :p
I literally cheered when the Ice-E theory got such a high rank 😂 One of my favorite storytelling tropes is when something that seems clearly ridiculous is taken super seriously and produces genuine sadness, fear, etc. I want the UT word search to give me PTSD by the time Deltarune is done
Same! xD
Flowey was very similar, a smiling flower named flowey is actually a bad guy is very cliche and goofy, yet flowey's story is so intricate and important
giasfelfebrehber
@@Vulnresatiwhen describing Flowey, the word ‘’goofy’’ does not come to mind
ice-HE IS COMING
I think the funniest option for Roulxs is to have him so desperately trying to be important but completely failing at it. He totally wants to be deep and complex, but it's all a facade. He acts like he has a mysterious past and important knowledge about the secrets of the world, but he just doesn't. Of course, he's still going to keep bluffing as long as he possibly can, but eventually, someone's gonna go "Hey, this guy's just a big phony!" and he immediately runs away.
But my more interesting idea for Roulxs is that, across the next couple chapters, he shows up less and less, not even appearing at all by chapter 5 or 6. Of course, the rest of the characters, who never really cared about him at all, don't even realize that he's gone. He's been forgotten. But eventually, if you look hard enough, you can find him. The accent he's taken on is almost indecipherable, but he seems to be talking about freedom. He's gripping a Shadow Crystal in his hands, the thing that he knows will finally make him important! The thing he knows will finally make everyone, Queen, King, even Third Entry I Included So This Works As A List, recognize him as the perfect choice for second-in-command! At least, that's what the man who gave it to him said it would do...
I also had that thought. It's such a cool idea to think about Roulxs being used as a way to show more in-depth the fall from grace that we heard about with Spamton.
You are either onto something or on something, and holy crap I love this so much. No notes. Take my wallet, house keys, and family.
MY MAN IS COOKING SOME GOOD SHIT
mmmm very very tasty yknow this could use some more salt but otherwise MM very. it is very, very ㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤ
Yeah rules is such weird charater
Like for charater that feels like a joke they are becoming less of a joke
A fun theory i have that i enjoy is that Ralsei DID explain everything to Kris (i.e. the roaring and the main plot) but only in the manual, which you cant read.
It makes some sense, because ralsei was basically isolated for who knows how long and was longing for these heroes, so he probably wouldnt know how to act in most circumstances!
I love this idea more than "RALSEI WAS EVIL ALL ALONG" because I always hate those almost as much as I hate all a dream theories
Maybe thats why the original manuel was scrapped
That's an interesting idea! Maybe the "...So that's why.” sections in both Chapters, wherein Ralsei seems to explain something to Kris while we are preoccupied with looking at what Susie is doing, involve him explaining another part of this manual to Kris, basically telling them what's about to happen and what they need to do follow the path that Ralsei thinks is best.
i wouldn't be surprised if ralsei doesn't become evil but is replaced by lancer.
because i just realized that ralsei isn't likely a prince as there is no king/queen of the dark world he belong's to, but lancer is a prince and a darkner so he could replace ralsei and still fulfill the "prophecy".
it won't really effect gameplay as lancer can have all the ability's needed to replace ralsei, and susie is learning to heal so she can get better at it thru out the rest of the chapter's.
@@Solibrae That really reminds me of the manual mechanic of Tunic
I disagree with the idea of the player not being tied to the narrative. Not necessarily the Player Being the Angels, that I don't buy to be true.
But Flowey's monologue in the Genocide Route about curiosity and how boredom led to him being the monster is supposed to make the player reflect on how their actions are one in the same.
How the process of detaching yourself from the characters in the game leads you to immoral paths purely based on curiosity. Even calling out that some folks don't have the guts to do it themselves, but would watch others do it to sate their curiosity.
Inversely, Flowey at the end of the Pacisfist Route tells you that the story's over and that you could just let them enjoy their lives as is.
Undertale is a story largely about Empathy and finding connections with those you encounter. The premise of the game was built on finding humanity in the random mobs of monsters that you'd mindlessly mow down in any other game.
By removing the player AS a character, I think you remove the narrative point of that empathy.
10:00 Hm, I see where you're coming from, since you're totally right about how the player doesn't really directly exist in Undertale, but I think using Undertale as a frame of reference for the player/game relationship can lead to a lot of confusion. Deltarune seems to be VERY OBVIOUSLY drawing a huge disconnect between the red soul (which I assume to be a complete stand-in for the player's will) and Kris; not only do we have scenes where Kris removes their soul to do things, but an example I love is the piano in the hospital. We know Kris can play the piano due to NPC dialogue about it and Noelle's blog post about it, and yet in game, while WE the player control Kris, attempting to play the piano results in a horrible sound. We can't play the piano in the realm of Deltarune! But Kris can. I understand the concern of how absurd the idea of a real person interacting with a game world is, but to be blunt that's just how metatext works. It's not entirely literal, it's an acknowledgement that the game we are playing is fiction, and we as players have a special ability to interact with the game without directly being in it. Undertale is a game which examines how disconnected players can become from games when they exert violence onto all the characters. For that goal, it makes sense to acknowledge the player without having them be directly in the story. Having a stand-in like Frisk works fine. Deltarune is a game which explores the idea of having a protagonist who has their own life prior to the start of the game and isn't just a blank slate for the player. For that to work, you need the player and Kris to be separate. Full stop.
This isn't necessarily an argument for Angel = Player theory (I'm more of a Noelle = Angel truther myself lol), but also I don't think theories involving the player are bad. It irks me to see people disregard them so easily considering Deltarune is so obviously hinting at the importance of the player in the narrative. Anyways I'm not done with the video yet so I apologize if I ended up repeating a point made later in it, just wanted to type this before I forgot lol.
I think a good way to look at thing is there is Something that is Not Kris that is currently controlling and watching Kris. We see this when Kris takes their soul out to do actions outside the Something's control, we see this when Ralsei tries to divert the Something's attention and talk to Kris offscreen in each chapter (or fails to do so in Snowgrave), and we see this when "Kris" and "You" are used separately in calling for Susie, Ralsei, and Noelle at the end of the Spamton Snowgrave fight. Its pretty clear that what the player directly controls is this Something, not Kris themself.
Maybe that Something just IS the player on a direct level, that is the most straightforward interpretation of the events seen here. However, it could also be that this Something is not literally the player, but rather some being that exists more solidly in-universe to represent the player's control and influence. Whatever the case is, there is certainly Something that is Not Kris that we directly control, and most of the theories that discuss "The Player" refer to this Something's actions/behaviors/nature.
Not being a fan of The Player being literally involved with the narrative is reasonable, but it seems like Jaru has extended that to ignoring the existence of this Something that the game has pretty clearly indicated exists and is important to the narrative, at least in regards to discussing the theories seen here. Just replacing "The Player" with "Whatever Not-Kris is" in most of the various theories gets you functionally the same theories just without the direct involvement of the literal player while still acknowledging that Something that is Not Kris is involved here.
@@msgameandcake628
I agree so much with this.
Jaru does seem to believe that the posession theory is true and that its specifically Asriel from his theory that he's dead and that we are controlling Asriel who is then controlling Kris.
Yet he has great disdain for anything player related. Even says it would make for a worse story if it were true. Like its obvious that we will probably never be directly referenced (just like in Undertale) but I think its obvious that we are meant to feel responsible and bad for what we are forcing Kris (or Noelle) to do.
Even though in Undertale Frisk had the canonical power to save and load it was still us that was supposed to feel guilty for killing Toriel, reload and then get called out for it by flowey. Yes at the end chara is revealed but for basically the whole game we were supposed to feel in control and feel like we are part of the plot, even though we actually arent on a story level.
Why cant that be the same in Deltarune?
@@msgameandcake628 You are absolutely right and I totally agree! You worded what I was trying to say so much better than I did, haha. It's clear that whatever is controlling Kris (that we, by proxy, are controlling) is a very very clear stand-in for The Player or even just the Player directly. I think details like Ralsei talking to Kris with video game lingo such as "Press [X] to do (insert thing here)" and Susie even reacting to that with confusion ("Who's [X]?") shows that there's some direct fourth-wall-breaking action happening. Plus, like you said, the distinction between "Kris" and "You" in Snowgrave makes this even clearer. It doesn't have to be super literally the Player, but it's definitely the Player's proxy in-universe or something along those lines.
Edit: JUST thought of this, but also the fact we can still control the red soul in the birdcage after Kris removes it is a pretty dead give away for this idea as well.
@@tobiasbayer4866 I like your point about Undertale! It's true that while, yes, characters in Undertale usually only address Frisk when talking to the player (besides arguably Flowey and Chara of course), the point is that Frisk is the in-game stand-in for The Player. Like you said, WE are the ones meant to feel the weight of the actions that we decide Kris and Frisk will take in either game. Both games are video games which deconstruct video games, after all! Whether Deltarune will have another stand-in like Frisk to be the red soul or if the red soul is literally just The Player is yet to be seen, but I think ignoring our role in the narrative is a slippery slope to losing the thread of what both games are truly about. Good observation!
@@tobiasbayer4866 I had completely forgotten (or maybe I never fully knew in the first place) that Jaru thought the Not-Kris Something was Asriel. In that regard, I would like to clarify that my complaint isn't necessarily about how dedicated he is to that interpretation. My issue is moreso that we don't have a good universally accepted neutral terminology for the Not-Kris Something. In this regard, when people refer to The Player in the theories shown in this video they aren't REALLY theories about how The Literal Player is going to impact the story, but rather about how the Not-Kris Something is going to impact the story.
In this regard, since Jaru thinks that Asriel is the Not-Kris something, he should've probably analyzed the "Player theories" from the perspective of
Asriel is the Angel
Kris summoned Asriel
Asriel will leave Kris/become the vessel
Ralsei cares about Asriel, not Kris
Ralsei has a crush on Asriel
Some of these don't work quite as well if you think the Not-Kris Something is SPECIFICALLY Asriel, but all of these can be understood as referring to an in-universe character that only represents the player's influence rather than being literally The Player. People just refer to this character as The Player since we don't have a good widely accepted alternative. Therefore, from here on out I'll be referring to the Not-Kris Something as Hearty.
The player is canon in Undertale, this was confirmed already.
The player is ABSOLUTELY canon in Deltarune. Sure, we can try and entertain some wild theory that the soul is not us but some in-universe character we control, like your Asriel theory. Even if we try to ignore the whole gonermaker sequence, it's already a giant stretch you're making to fit your narrative. But tell me, who the hell "accepts everything that will happen from now on", Jaru? Who finds the "unused" text lines in the game resources? Or do those things not count for you? Because I would argue they absolutely do.
Your disdain for meta theories/player being directly involved in a Toby Fox game of all things is, frankly, silly. Putting your convoluted "Asriel possesses Kris" theory as S rank is even sillier and reeks of vanity. Occam's razor, Jaru - if Kris rips out a soul, leading to us losing control of him (and said soul shown explicitly being controlled by us while out in the open), pretty sure Toby implies the soul is us, not preparing some Shyamalan-like twist of Kris being a russian doll of entities (us controlling quote-unquote Asriel, who in turn controls Kris). Sorry, this whole conviction of yours to separate player from the story, compounded by your smug attitude, really rubs me the wrong way. I do not see the story going in this direction.
Fell free to come back and laugh at me if you turn out to be right though.
I'd like to join the club of people to be laughed at! Asriel being straight up dead makes no sense, Toriel *knows* Asriel is coming home in a few days so he's obviously still alive. Ralsei could be Asriel's dust, but not *all* of his dust. Y'know how when you behead Paps his body dusts first? Maybe Kris accidentally cut off one of Azzy's fingers or something. That's literally the only explanation that makes sense.
Yeah, i understood what he meant but its definitely a very misguided view on the use of meta elements in toby fox games. I do think the reason why meta works so well in toby fox games is because it is used as a storytelling tool to enhance your view on the story and for some meta-comentary without consuming said story or making it the whole point of it.
This is true in undertale, where frisk is a blank state for this said reason, to allow the story to be told without the need of the player as an active entity while clearly being one. You can get a story out of undertale without drawing meta paralelsz although they 100% are there and are meant to be used to fill the gaps in the narrative.
The difference is that you cannot make this same point for deltarune because it has been made absolutely crystal clear that kris is not a blanked state like frisk.
Kris is a character being controlled by the soul.
And im sorry but trying to argue that the soul is not a representation of the players control over this world creates way more problems that it solves them, apart from being a bit of a weird concept right, since then whats the message or theme trying to be implied here. Whats the point of trying to remove the player from the story and give that responsibility to another character that we Control thats controlling kris when we have literally the main man himself w.d literally talking to us on twitter asking us to fill an aplication?
Any theory that circunvents all these hints and tries to remove the player influence from the story just lead to a story that has no coerent themes thats its repeating to the player.
So yeah i think it is the most logical conclusion from all the hints we've got that the player is absolutely more involved and prominent to the story than in undertale and any theories trying to disprove that are misguided and actively create more holes in the plot than they fix.
i think the semantics used to say the player isn;t canon to undertale is a little silly, in my opinion. the player is either diegetic or it’s not. and regardless of whether someone believes the player is non-diegetic/diegetic in undertale, if you consider the theme (which jaru speaks about a lot in his theories but seems to miss here a bit) of control in deltarune, who better to bring into the story than the player?
@@theflyingspagetI don’t think anything happened to Asriel in terms of physical injuries, mental ones are possible(the secret bosses have all been crazy) If anything Ralsei is either an important item that Kris or Asriel owned (dragon book, headband, etc) or some type of memory (the former is more likely)
Sorry if this comes off as a little hostile, but I don’t understand how someone can have an interpretation of this game that rejects the player being a part of the story. In my mind it’s pretty in your face about it, I genuinely don’t know what more Toby could have done at this point to spell it out without just straight up saying it. I fear you’re going to be in for a lot of disappointment if you don’t like the idea of the player having a role in this game.
To put it simply, I see no advantage to the player being part of the story IF this is the way Toby is intending to go about it. It's not that I don't understand the evidence in favor of the player being in the story. It's that I think the end result of that evidence is a poorly executed story. In other words, either the player is a part of this story, and Toby has done shockingly little with the idea except have one character be upset about it, or we're just not part of the story. Given the choice between a bad story where the player is involved, and a good story where we aren't involved, I'd prefer to believe in the latter.
Agreed, and it actually might be my favorite concept about Deltarune, the idea that the character you're playing has their own goals and is fighting back. How we play as Kris, but have no way of knowing them
Honestly I really like the theory that Ralsei knows the player/player stand-in exists. He purposely pulls us out of Kris' body to have a conversation with them, he only blushes when his sprite is overlapping with our soul, and in the Japanese version, the only times Ralsei uses the "you" pronoun (kimi I think) when talking to Kris is when he is explaining a game mechanic, or asking us to make a choice. But I think the biggest piece of evidence is that he names castle town after the player.
one thing i will say about the player being part of deltarunes plot is that deltarune has arguably already had more characters acknowledge the player's existence in just 2 chapters than undertale did. Ralsei is clearly aware that SOMETHING is watching them and manipulates us on two occasions so he can talk to kris alone. and spamton literally hears the players voice- as does noelle, in snowgrave. thats 3 characters vs undertales 1 [or arguably 2] and were only in chapter 2/7
i think this is because deltarune is fundamentally interested in examining the relationship between protagonist and player, which is something undertale never focused on and really only barely touched on with Chara's genocide dialogue. but now its a core theme of the entire game. kris is not a pure vessel like frisk, he actively resists you.
ps: idk if you forgot or just think this shouldnt count as canon or something, but flowey 100% knew the player existed. in a post-pacifist ending he literally speaks directly to you, as a player, face to face, and directly begs you, the player, to close the game and let frisk live their life.
I'm of the opinion that any instance that people attribute to the Player can instead be attributed to other in-universe characters, such as Chara, Frisk, and whatever entity is inside Kris' soul.
I think the player being the one In control is the meta narrative here, and frisk/Chara/whoever is the in universe explanation
Jaru seems like someone that would somehow predict he end of Chapter 7 with a stray pixel and I'm all here for it
The King and Queen pixel 😭
The pixel is the knight
Actually, the pixel is secretly Gaster watching you, because if you replace the letters in “pixel” with the letters G, A, S, T, E, and R, it spells Gaster 🤯🤯🤯
The stray pixels are Asriel's dust
@@cazzok LMAOOO
It's understandable to dislike any theories involving the player directly in Undertale, but DR seems way more explicit so far about player involvement. Even if the player is not "directly" involved, we are at least playing the role of ~something~ that appears to be taking control of Kris.
We are directly acknowledged by Gaster (yes, it's Gaster, don't even try to deny it at this point) in the opening intro and asked to give _our own name_ , so it is very hard for me to believe that the player won't be directly involved in the story somehow.
I may be wrong, but my impression of Chess theory was that it was more of a metaphor for the bosses and their order rather than finding exact connections and making everything fit into a game of chess. Wingdings egg thing may be one of the places the theory is a stretch but it could also just be a silly thing that got noticed and spawned inspiration for the vague chess theme/metaphor when the story was being developed.
I just don't see why that would be something Toby Fox would bother with if he wasn't going to do anything super interesting with it. But that's just me. xD
The thing is that the theory is based on the fact that the two first bosses are "King" and "Queen" and there's also a "Knight"
But there's so many other things that would fit that pattern, like if all main bosses are simply royalty-themed, or linked to some sort of real life important status (so maybe the church boss could be "Saint" something).
And also that's assuming there's a pattern in the first place, we only have two examples so it's hard to say it is
@@TheGeladooBishop boss fight would be interesting
Yeah I like the idea of chess theory personally in a thematic sense. (Well, actually I hate it but that's just because after playing AAI2 I never wanna see a single chess piece again) but the second people started theorizing that the chapter 3 boss was LITERALLY going to be named rook and from there it felt almost like people assumed Toby had the creativity of a toaster. Chess theory is only really fun if it's a thematic thing and not like a literal "oh well this bad guy is going to be NAMED ROOK and he is going to BE A ROOK" and there's a point where that doesn't work or make sense.
King and Queen, for one, aren't named King and Queen, but they're also, yknow, a king and a queen. And I don't think it makes much sense for the next ruler/overlord character to be... a... rook???? Like what?????
@@sanrusdynepawn chapter antagonist about to go crazy in chapter 6
One thing I haven't seen much in theories, and wasn't mentioned in the video, is that the Dark Fountains serve a similar role to The Barrier in a thematically opposite way. The whole of Undertale is spent getting to, and then attempting to get through The Barrier. Deltarune seems to be going in the opposite direction, with the fountains being closer to cracks in the barrier between light and dark that we have to patch up so the world doesn't get destroyed, being encountered very frequently.
Another side theory I have for this is that shadow crystals may just be pieces of this hypothetical barrier that were broken off when it was punctured to create a dark fountain.
Also, appreciate your work on speculating about what could come next in Deltarune. The videos that come out of it are very entertaining to watch regardless (or, really because of) how unhinged they can be.
I actually totally agree with that parallel! I'm of the opinion that the Barrier from UNDERTALE and the Dark World / Timeloop from DELTARUNE are parallels, with both being the primary obstacle for the characters to overcome, yet also not being the actual focus of the drama. We're on the same page in that regard!
I have been saying this for AGES! Than you for bringing it up @genericlurker5778 !!
Like, I have literally been saying this for years since chapter 1!
I heard an interesting theory that the shadow crystals are fragments of titans from the roaring
So shadow crystals are like a cork? That’s a great parallel!
I think the gas leak theory isn't really a "it's all a dream" theory but rather a minor prediction for chapter 3 's intro bc in chapter 1's ending we thought that Kris was gonna be evil and killing with their knife but then chapter 2 came out it turns out that they used it to get pie. But it seems that's already debunked bc all the chapter 3 teasers shown are from the house's dark world, meaning that Kris did actually create one lol
I see it as a joke.
And a damn funny one at that 😂
@@TheSkyGuy77dawg wanted to get to the basement pie stash
Me and my brother are obsessed with the time loop theory, and how we think it always resets when they fail to fight the angel. In the files of the intro, and ONLY the intro is their dialogue of most likely Susie, this only happens when you have device failure. "Come on, Is that all you got?!" "Kris, Get up...!" "This is not your fate...!" "Please dont give up...!". We think this is Susie seeing Kris fall in the final battle, and she says this. After Kris falls, the time loop restarts again, and it will keep repeating until Kris defeats the angel/the Titans.
Interesting! Could be!
14:11 Toriel is a kindergarden teacher, right? So any child disappearance would directly affect her as well because she was probably loved them like they were her children. Also, I don't think Asgore killed anyone because if so he'd be treated like a murderer, not like the average citizen.
If Asgore has any blame for Dess’s disappearance, it’d more likely to be from INaction than anything he actually did to them. The reason Toriel left him in Undertale was because of his inaction to go through the barrier to get the rest of the souls after getting one. I don’t know whether or not she would have forgiven killing one child as part of the greater good or not, but she specifically cites his inactions as why she left.
I could totally see him not being directly responsible for Dess, but failing to do something important that might have found or even saved them, and while the rest of the town can forgive him (like how the rest of the underground forgives him for killing six kids) toriel could not.
@@omgwafflez101perhaps Kris was the one to say something like "Dess got eaten by the bunker" and Asgore took it as one of Kris's many pranks and by the time he realized it was true it was too late
Jaru:I don't hate meta theories
Also Jaru: "I don't like player is part of the plot theories" also puts every meta theory in D or F tier
There's a big difference between being a meta theory and being a "THE PLAYER IS A PERSON IN THE PLOT" theory. The former has a metanarrative where the actions/stories of the characters have a double meaning that applies to the player in real life. The latter abandons the metanarrative altogether to transform the regular narrative into this absurd farce where the god-like player entity chats up the fictional characters and undermines all stakes in the story.
@@JaruJaruJ I don't think the player being a character undermines the stakes of a story anymore than a player playing a story does. Though my bigger problem with what you say is the fact that it feels like the player being some kind of participant in the story already feels like it's been heavily hinted at with the emphasis on Kris not being in control of his soul and the voice Noelle hears in the snowgrave route. Though I get that you believe that someone else like Asriel is in control of Kris.
@@JaruJaruJ Deconstructing video games mechanics is very Toby Fox-like, though. In UT, he managed to talk a whole lot about saving and loading without breaking the immersion or "ruining" the story, and I'm confident he'll do it again with the relation between the player and player-character. It'll most likely be much more subtle that you're presenting it
@@JaruJaruJwe aren’t really a god though? The only theory that really does say that is the Angel one. Almost everyone in the story can fight us, Gaster put us in a body, Kris takes us out, Ralsei diverts us, and Susie disobeys us, we can change the story, but we can’t become gods.
Flowey definitely is talking to the player at the end of a True Pacifist Route. He literally says (assuming you put in the Fallen Human's name as Chara) "Chara", the quotation marks included. Blud would not do that if he was talking to Chara.
I haven't heard the player angel theory before, so maybe you didn't explain it well, but your reasoning for why you don't like it is kind of strange. To say that the player shouldn't play a narrative role is to completely ignore Kris as a character and makes explaining Ralsei's behavior nearly impossible. I can't imagine any plausible way that the player *isn't* in the narrative, at least a little bit, by the game's conclusion. Between what we see on screen and what the secret bosses are saying, Kris is definitely possessed by *something* and (mostly) doesn't have the ability to act for themself. The most popular and simplest explanation is that it's the player, since we are literally controlling Kris, and the soul, and can even control it in the bird cage when they take it out. I guess you could say we're controlling another character or entity who is controlling Kris? That adds a lot of complexity though, and I'm not sure what exactly would be gained by going that route.
the deltarune wiki even has a page for the player and says all this is "heavily implied", so it's definitely not subtle
maybe it’s confirmation bias kicking in, but i feel like you would actually have to prove the player ISN’T diegetic in deltarune. it would be interesting to hear jaru expand on this other and try to explain the holes that interpretation leaves, rather than leaving it at the game not being completely explicit about it or undertale only being absolutely explicit about in the chara’s genocide dialogue.
Asriel possession Kris for no reason goes against his character. He’s evil as Flowey since he got his ability to feel remorse taken away. He’s portrayed as someone Kris likes, but is jealous of because he’s so good at everything. Him dying does not progress the plot and makes much less sense than the player, a heavily foreshadowed person, being in the game.
Oh my god, I'm totally gonna rank these theories later. Also, it's a little rare to see someone opposed in the fandom for Player theories ngl. It's just so integrated into fandom interpretation that at this point, hearing something other than that is rare to me at least lol. My own perspective is that we do, in a way, play a very important role in the story (Ex. Soul lore being teased) and at the very least, control Kris and we are not "omnipotent"-like. The fact that other characters, mainly Susie, doesn't comply to our orders is kinda proof that we are limited in what we can do in DR's world, and also pushes the "choices don't matter" narrative. I mean, Kris can literally tear out the SOUL, our little avatar and there's nothing we can do about it. Other than that, I personally love player theories, but not those that make the player be an all-powerful God-like entity.
Glad I could provide a unique perspective. x)
2nd intro voice theory has the implicit part about it that "Geoff" isn't evil and didn't screw you over in the beginning. I don't know what the actual distribution looks like but it feels like a lot of people suppose Gaster is evil because of pre-Deltarune Undertale headcanon or fan content, so I appreciate being open to seeing this character (or a related character) in a different possible light... even if we don't have too much to go off of for definitively being evil/antagonistic or not.
I have this specific interpretation of "Ralsei is Kris Ideal Self" theory that has been bouncing around in my head a lot recently.
I've personally been in the camp of Ralsei being Kris' old red horns. They're very specifically called out in Chapter 1 and even end with a "I wonder what happened to them" line which sets off HUGE foreshadowing alarms. We also know that based off the various interactions of Kris and Ralsei and the tea healing amounts cited a lot in Tea Theory that Kris' opinion of Ralsei isnt exactly peachy.
Between that, and the Acid Lake scene where Ralsei basically has a whole identity questioning crisis. It leads me to think that Ralsei is a representation of something that Kris once wanted. When they were younger they wished they could of "just fit in", but now, for reasons that I think could even relate to Kris and Noelle's friendship drifting apart, they are bitter towards that pastt wishful thinking, and that may be why they discarded the horns they once wore so much according to Toriel.
I think the idea of Kris facing something they once longed for but now despise is a really interesting way to take the Ralsei/Kris dynamic and seems to already be set up by some parts of the story.
So Ralsei is Kris' old cringey fursona...
You know what that makes sense actually
i have a little theory that every lightner has a major boss darkner which specifically represents some insecurity of the lightner when said lightner first enters that dark world. For example, susie's wrath manifests as king, who quotes susie's 'QUIET PEOPLE PISS ME OFF' and is all around just a menace. We also have queen, who was a manifestation of noelle's parental issues. finally, i think ralsei is a manifestation of kris's desire to go on adventures with asriel again, but is just not able to be the person who kris wants. As such, kris doesn't HATE ralsei, but is just disappointed that he is nothing like what he desired.
@@leritykay8911why do i exist on the same plane as you. why couldnt i bed 4th dimensional noooo i had to be stuck with WILL SMITH! I HATE WILL SMITH!
Hey, maybe that “I want to fit in” idea is why Ralsei can be in different dark worlds! He “fits in” to every world.
Although Ralsei being a girl isn't a requirement for the theory, I love the idea that Ralsei has a true form bit disguises themselves to be more trustworthy
Agreed!
I love the content Jaru Jaru makes because good content of this length is becoming harder to find on youtube
Agreed. Sometimes you need a good video essay playing in the background of a different activity
i agree John Egbert from Homestuck
Personally, the problem I see in Asriel being dead is that, unless it happened less than 48 hours before the game started, Toriel wouldn’t be talking about him coming over soon and would probably be instead more concerned about how he mysteriously disappeared.
Unless Kris has been masquerading as Asriel through email to keep up the illusion that Asriel is still alive.
idfk man. because if asriel was dead and kris did all the ding dongs of hiding his corpse im pretty sure the college would mail toriel or maybe asgore’s house about him suspiciously not being in the college
plus doesn’t asriel have a phone? why tf does a adult off in college not have a phone and not have family contacts. if asriel is dead, the college could inform toriel about asriel not being in college. i don’t like this theory because it doesn’t make sense in practice.
@@eletgres519 That's not how college works in my country. If I didn't show up, the only people to give a crap would be my debt collectors, and they wouldn't show up for potentially years.
@@eletgres519 Asriel is implied to not have a working phone, as Pizzapants has to ask Kris to contact Asriel on his behalf, despite Pizzapants having a phone.
1:06:38 Chara: "Hi Kris! It's me, the devil! I've come to convince you to do sin!"
Believe it or not I was actually the one who popularized the ralsei is a pure darkner (A.K.A grand fountain made him special)
Quite the experience to have one of your favorite theorists dunk on you LOL
Keep an eye out for my GREEN THEORY video. Promise it'll shake up the theory community, it's an idea i can't wait to hear more thoughts on.
That's awesome! Can't wait for your future theories! And I'm sorry for the dunk! It's nothing personal, and it's not a strike against the theory itself or against you! It's just my own personal tastes! xD
You are uploading a theory video? If so subscribed
@@JaruJaruJ no worries! I thought it was funny.
Plus the dunking should be saved for when I make GREEN THEORY. That's my Oberon smog, and it's not an idea I've seen anyone else present. Very excited!
@@Nexter-Lie I haven’t seen any of your theories, but now I’m interested.
1:07:23
I believe another reason why people think that fountain is special is because any darkner can live there without being “incompatible” with it. I think that’s why ralsei is compatible with other worlds, because his fountain is able to take any darkner, so it works oppositely too?
"Berdly being actually freaking dead, I think it's great" that's it, Jaru is CANCELED
I highly doubt he’s dead, as monsters turn to dust, more so in a comatose state
Jaru really out here saying "wouldn't it be cool if everyone was fucked up/a murderer/dead?" and I'm just sitting here thinking "Indeed, What a Fascinating Take! Thank you Sir!"
whooooa there buddy...! I think you might have a major case of observation bias. You're only looking for what you want to see.
Putting Angel=Player in F tier is major disrespect.
Like, even if you don't like it, it's still easily B tier.
Sure there are other in-game canadines like Noelle, Dess, Gaster, Kris, etcetera.... but you can't deny that there are at least ties that may suggest it's the player EVERYWHERE. Like, even with the prophecy in Undertale with them either being set free or it being the angel of death that kills them.. maybe the first one could fit Asriel, but the "Murder-mc-loves-to-kill-people" is definitely us.
In DELTARUNE we possess a human body, and we seem _suspiciously_ character-like, what with Kris fighting our influence in story and all.
Or we could be a demon they summoned with Goth-Girl Katty.
Also we are recognized as a referable entity by Geoff.
ALSO-ALSO, we aaaaaare kind of an interdimensional being beyond Deltarune's *time-line and spatial boundaries,* that had to *_enter_* the void/depths/goner_creation or whatever you want to call it. We can literally destroy and create whole universes on a whim... along with our deciding to give up literally causing the world to be *"Covered in darkness.".* When Asriel took the appearence of the prophesized angel on the runes, he was capable of doing the same things with his "Hyper Goner" attack. Which makes the player feel pretty similar in Deltarune in the menu.
And as just a side-note, Spamton thinks he can reach "HEAVEN" by taking the the soul inside of Kris. OUR red heart from the Goner Creation.
Jaru, there is TONS of evidence that gives it at least as much support/credence as many of these other theories. I really do think you may have goggles on your eyes for this theory, sort of speak..
I'm just being honest.
It's not disrespect. It's opinion. I'm ranking them based off how much I'd like the theories to be true, not based off the merits of the theories.
As for the rest, that's a perfectly fine interpretation of the narrative that you have. I just 10000% think that's not the case. Observation bias is about letting one's opinions skew what's in front of you, and yes, I do have observation bias, but not in the way you think. I have observation bias because two key beliefs color my perspective:
1) Toby Fox is a great writer who is going to tell a great story.
2) The player being a canon part of the core narrative would ruin the story.
Because of those two core beliefs, I cannot and WILL NOT look kindly upon any theories that insist the player is part of the narrative. Not because those theories are wrong, they could absolutely be right! But because I refuse to believe Toby Fox would ruin his narrative like that. Maybe I'll be wrong, and he will ruin it, which would be extremely disappointing. But for now, I choose to hold onto hope, and believe he won't do that.
@@JaruJaruJ Ok, I get that.
I skipped around because it's 3 hours long (actually I am still watching it rn) so I didn't hear the part at the beginning where you said it would be based off of what you like. Sorry, but it's very long, so I miss some things.
PS. "Disrespect" is a social word I use from time to time. I did not say it in it's letteral meaning. That's how I talk.
Nice video! I was very happy to see some love for "Half-Human Susie" as it is one theory I am a very big fan of. My personal thoughts are that due to her part-human genetics, she grew up to be less "scary" than other purple dragon monsters as her human genes neutered a lot of those traits, such as having a short tail she finds embarrassing and a rather small stature compared to others of her (monster side) kind. Her monster parent (in my headcanon her mother) abuses her as she believes her unthreatening form and kind and caring personality is a disgrace to her monster heritage, forcing her to adopt a cold and aggressive persona to try and "fit in" with what is expected of a monster like her parent.
I feel like if we do see Susie's parent we would see the monster one and not the human one, as Toby has said he preferred having Kris be the only one as it made them more unique and it felt more natural having everyone else be these colourful monsters.
I like this theory because as you said, it thematically mirrors Kris - both of them have identity issues between life as a monster and life as a human. Kris is a human who has spent their life around monsters and wishes to fit in with them. Susie is neither a monster or a human, and struggles to fit in with either due to her situation and what others expect of her based on her heritage and how she presents as a traditional "gruff dragon monster". It's an interesting dynamic I would love to see play out. Also I think Susie definitely has a really sweet and caring side to her that she's hiding and I want to see more of it
Also, as much as I love homophobic Toriel as a joke it was even more of a pleasure to see Shayy rip into it so hard like holy wooah they did not hold back
I really hope Half-Human Susie gets more discussion at some point, I NEED more talk about it
Loved all the hot takes as well. Did not expect girl Ralsei to get so high up but the way you spun it from a thematic context was actually pretty cool. Also how dare you slander Rouxlsaster like that how dare you how dare you
Thank you! xD
It's possible that her home life isn't abusive, and her family is simply living in hard times. With her father being absent or hiding himself in costumes.
I think the way you disregard some of the "player" related theories is a little unfair, as my assumption was that "player" simply refers to whatever the red soul is. These theories become better if you substitute whatever that is for player. Like, we're not _the player,_ real human person outside the game, we're simply playing as, say, Steve, the supernatural being with incredible power who manifests as a red heart/soul, but _otherwise fully exists within the context of the world of the game._ The game is then not about the player themselves, but a character who represents the player.
This then maintains the same, lighter level of Meta from Undertale, where you're not directly acknowledged as the player, but you still play as Frisk, a character with abilities similar to what a player has over a game.
Those 'player' theories then fit more into the world:
- Kris didn't summon you, the player, they summoned Steve, the mysterious creature who went on to possess them
- It's not the player leaving Kris to control someone else, it's Steve, the supernatural entity possessing them, leaving and possessing something else.
- Ralsei doesn't know and care about the you, the player, over Kris, the character. He knows and cares about Steve, the character who exists in the world. He does not know or assume that Steve is controlled by someone beyond their reality playing a video game, nor is that ever suggested by the game. He simply knows that Steve behaves weirdly, perceives the world differently, knows strange things about reality, and has mysterious and dangerous powers over the world.
Sure. But instead of Steve, make it an actual character. Make it Asriel. And THEN I'll consider them. xD
Honestly, I think Ariel possessing Kris is a very possible and Toby storyline, and I agree with that. However, I don't think it would be some Halloween costume jello knife prank gone wrong like u said in your original video lol. I don't know what could have caused a tragedy like that, but im pretty positive it's not that. I just can't wait for the rest of the chapters mainly
I'm just glad you agree the base theory is feasible. xD
ARIEL
GUYS I HAVE A THEORY
@@portuguisianbralizian3293Everyone talking about the woody theory when the ariel theory is where its at
@@patrickserrats6919Alice theory when?
Agreed, it would definitely undermine the tragedy if it was all foreshadowed in a gag about what I assume to be kris' search history having weird jello sensory vids in it
I am so stoked to see Spookydood, I love him. Hope to see you two collaborate!
I don't really get your dislike/disbelief for the player theories.
The scenes that are given the most narrative importance are ones where Kris throws the soul into a cage, while you control the soul, and Kris wanders about
Dialogue describes how Kris acts different
Weird route ending "Kris" vs "You" call for help
I don't think this is particularly "vague" it seems pretty front and center to me
The player might be playing a different in game character that is NOT Kris, but it looks like they are at the very least not playing Kris themselves
I'm beginning to think I'll need to make a video about this topic. To put it very simply, I do not believe the scenes we're shown are about the player. I do not believe the player is part of this narrative. I believe this because at no point has us being part of the narrative been utilized in any sort of meaningful way. Because of this, I have two options: Either I believe the player is NOT part of the narrative, or I believe the player IS part of the narrative and Toby Fox has done a very poor job of using that plot point to tell any sort of unique or meaningful story. Between those options, I'd rather maintain my hope and believe the game is good and does NOT involve the player.
the Noelle or raslei has a new meaning now
(both of them seeming obsesive and damaged)
literally fire and ice
Noelle having angel motifs ,ralsei wanting to banish the angels heaven
i'll make the video later
Sounds good!
Since you mentioned it, Ralsei's crush on Kris is the main thing that breaks your theory to me.
If Ralsei really has a crush on Kris but he's also made of Kris' brother remains who Kris killed themselves then... it's just too weird. Even if it turns out Ralsei inherented no memories from Asriel at all it's still weird, the intention would still be for us to think this Asriel lookalike was in love with Kris only to reveal later "Don't worry, even tho they're the same they're technically kind of not the same so it's ok"
I feel like that's an issue with Ralsei as a character, and not an issue with Ralsei Theories. He looks like Asriel and also crushes on Kris. Take that how you like, but that's true no matter what we theorize Ralsei to be. As such, I think the only theory this breaks is the theory that Ralsei is literally Asriel. Anything beyond that is fair game, in my opinion.
@@JaruJaruJWell, I don't think that "crush" is 100% fact. It could be admiration, could be, timid attempt at friendship, it could all be a facade. I wouldn't say that its necessarily a crush
@@JaruJaruJ
Well kind of but not really, i personally believe that Ralsei crushes on whoever the owner of the Soul is and not Kris (which yeah is a variation of the "Ralsei crushes on Player" theory). I think it's meant to be a fakeout, you're meant to think that it's nearing incest but then they'll reveal Ralsei's actually in love with the Soul and it's all good. It's supposed to seem weird to further disconnect Kris from the Soul you're controlling. That or he's Kris' fursona or whatever, point is there's ways for Ralsei's crush on Kris to not be incestuous.
My issue is that any variations of the "Ralsei is Asriel" theory just doubles down on the weirdness, again in the case of your theory it's "Yes this guy who looks like Kris's brother has a crush on them but... he's also literally made of Kris' brother's dust who Kris personally killed, and Kris's actual brother is watching it all up close and personal as he's possessing Kris". And there's no point to it, it's just weird for the sake of it. Technically there's nothing stopping Toby from still doing it but i personally don't think he would.
@@leritykay8911
The song that plays during Kris and Ralsei's boat ride in CH2 is called "Acid Tunnel of Love"
The problem isn't that since they are not biological siblings
The problem is that asriel is an adult and Kris is a teen
For the first theory and Chara in general, I really don't think they're meant to be a specific, grounded character but rather a reflection/representation of the player. The only time they appear is after a genocide route, the one time player will question themselves whether they did the right thing or not, something Chara also does. In addition, it also explains the reasoning behind the name Chara as well.
Chara is just the first five letters of character, which always struck me as odd because it's like naming a human Huma or something. But if we think of them as a stand in character for the player, it makes sense why they would have such a basic default name. And in the code they're referred as "the demon", which makes sense if they're meant to be the representation of a plauer who has erased almost all monsters underground. I also just realised that it would even make sense for their weird Japanese sentences too. They're not meant to be a specific person but a collective representation of those who played Undertale, and not everyone speaks the same way (in this context I'm referring to Chara using both kanji, hiragana and katakana in their JP sentences).
Tying this to Deltarune, it would make sense why we hear the voice of someone who has played Undertale. Firstly, both someone has done a pacifist and someone who has done a genocide route will know that the characters in Undertale/Deltarune are their own characters including the protagonist, with their own story. So it makes sense for them to say "no one can choose why they are in this world". And secondly, it makes sense in the meta narrative. We first have who's likely to be Gaster, someone who exists outside the boundaries of the games and 4th wall speak to us. So it makes so much sense that the person who's above them, someone above the consequences of breaking the 4th wall would be someone who's meant to be outside the story, someone who has played Undertale.
Chara is not a specific character, they're a reflection of the people who has played Undertale and they're speaking to us at the beginning because they already experienced something like this.
Now I should add to this (because I actually forgot to put this lol), I don't think the being we see at the end of Undertale genocide route is the same as the one Asriel had found and lived with. In fact I don't think their name is Chara to begin with (which it isn't really, given the origins of the name Chara). "Chara" the fallen child having connections to Deltarune not only would not make sense but would also take away from both of the stories as well. Anything and everything I have talked about refers to specifically and only to "Chara" the demon.
But in Undertale many characters have non-diegetic name origins. E.g Toriel is named after the word 'tutorial'. And Sans comes 'comic sans serif', a font name, where 'sans' is French for 'without'. So, yes, Sans' name is literally 'Without'.
None of this invalidates them being regular, in-universe characters. Toriel being named after a component of a video game doesn't immediately mean that she's some omnipotent entity.
Also, for all we know, 'Chara' could be a regular given name in the Undertale universe.
For example in Polish 'kara' means punishment - fitting, wouldn't it be? After all, that's exactly what Chara is at the end of genocide.
In Hebrew 'Hara' means mountain/hill (but is a place name, not a word or given name). And, you know, Chara falls down a *mountain* ...
In Italian Cara is an actual given name and means dear/beloved. Which could parallel how dear and beloved Chara was to the Dreemurrs.
In Galic Irish 'cara' means friend... well, Chara was Asriel's friend
Interestingly, in Japanese 'kara' can mean emptiness, or shell/husk. Now that's food for thought! Except in the Japanese version of the game Chara's name has been changed to 'Kyara' thus no longer fitting this. Hmm...
@@DogDogGodFogyou also name chara, i think thats important to take into consideration
@@evilness3404 That is for the sake of playing on RPG tropes.
Very informative video, although I do think there is a lot of willfully ignoring the fact that the player/character difference is much more pronounced in DeltaRune (starting with the Ch 1 epilogue) and that they're should be a reason for this.
Ok, I'm not too far into the video yet, but I just HAVE to talk about your opinions on the player not being apart of the plot, because I respectfully quite strongly disagree.
What about the ENTIRETY of snowgrave? Kris quite clearly doesn't want to do any of that and Noelle even says that they're hearing a voice unlike Kris'. If we're going by your own theories I guess you could make some argument about how it's Asriel doing all that. Now we could argue about the likelihood of that being the case all day, but even assuming that you're right that's a very out there conclusion for the average person to make on their first playthrough, so Toby definitely intended for people to at least think that the player is an integral part of the story.
Plus we also run into logistical issues if the player isn't a major element in the story. In Undertale, how exactly is this random kid that fell into the underground have enough determination to bring the consciousness of the first fallen human back from the dead, overpower Flowey (who even notes how extraordinary it is that someone out there is more determined than him), and win a fight against an actual god? Gee, it's almost as if they're being controlled by a being from a higher plane of existence who's allowing them to do those things.
Finally, specifically about the idea of the player being the angel, Asgore literally confirms that they (or at least Frisk or Chara) are in an alternate version of his fight.
Now just to be clear, I'm not arguing that Toby's going to try and say something crazy like Geoff took the player's actual soul and put it in Deltarune. As you've pointed out, that would make no sense as the player knows that didn't actually happen as Geoff is a fictional character that physically can't do that. I'm merely saying that Deltarune and Undertale use the real world as a part of their story, and not that they pretend like their story is a part of the real world, if that makes sense.
Frisk just has a lot of determination. That's it. That's the reason. It doesn't require a player at all.
Going paragraph by paragraph:
1) My stance is well documented. We control Asriel. Asriel controls Kris. Everything has clear answers in that framework.
2) Or Frisk is just a very determined person? I don't think we need a meta answer here. Humans are well established to be far more powerful than monsters, and Frisk could very well be a special human. Also they don't "win" against Asriel. They convince him to let go of his power willingly. Big difference. Similar deal with Omega Flowey. Frisk just survives. They don't win.
3) No idea what you're talking about with Asgore.
@@JaruJaruJ
1) I know, I specifically acknowledged your theories explaining it. However, that still doesn't change the fact that Toby quite clearly intended the average player to at least think that he was doing a meta narrative with the player.
2) I can understand Frisk just being particularly determined to specific extent, but with how much determination they have they are basically a god. Flowey/Asriel is repeatedly shocked at just how much determination they have, to the point where Flowey doesn't even seem to know how it's physically possible (and Flowey seems to know basically everything). It's stated that Asriel with even just 1 human soul had the ability to kill an entire village of humans giving him everything they've got, and yet Asriel with the equivalent of 7 human souls at full power is powerless to kill this one random kid?
3) th-cam.com/video/XBBqg9UVuhk/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for reading my comment and replying, and extra thanks if you're reading this!
@@ItsB1998 I can understand that to a certain extent, but Frisk has so much determination they are basically a god.
Aw, dang, I just saw one two days ago about Ms. Boom being the knight! Though it was too late to get into this video, I was wondering about your thoughts on it.
I know we’ve never seen her, but we know Berdly works for her (so she exists), plus she’s connected to Gerson, plus she doesn’t NOT have a dialogue portrait! It’s plausible, imo.
I'd say it's somewhere between Mayor Knight and Alvin Knight in my estimation. Probably a high C-Tier. She's never appeared and hasn't been characterized, so I generally don't love it, but the stuff that supports Alvin being the Knight does technically apply to her, so I can't discount her entirely. It's just not an option I find particularly compelling.
Bertha Boom
I will admit I completely drank the punch when it came to the metanarrative player as character theory. While I like the themes, going through the other meta theories makes me liken it to something like the "it was all a dream" or "Kris is crazy" theories, which I think are so tacky and devalue the story so much. Thank you for more analysis Jaru!
My pleasure!
I feel like ignoring the role of the player requires overlooking massively important information, and trying to remove the player at all costs is silly.
The theories that revolve completely around the player are kinda cringeworthy, but they undoubtedly have a role in the game and are a part of the motivations/actions of the characters, whether that be Chara in UT via the final scene in geno, or Ralsei's behavior in a few places and the entire weird route in DR.
@@evilness3404 Not necessarily. If you treat the player as purely a part of the meta-narrative, and others like Frisk, Chara, and so on as being our analog in the regular narrative, then the player being canon is not necessary.
I feel like for at least some of the theories, you shouldve taken "player" to mean "red soul". Otherwise you ended up voting lowly for a number of theories because of an essentially unrelated theory just because some people treat "player" and "red soul" as synonymous.
Having to apologize for using the word Yandere is wild.
I was very surprised as well.
@@JaruJaruJ Trust that the people that actually care about you and your content and don't assume the worst about your character know better.
Keep up the great work.
Thank you. x)
3:03:11 I think this just comes from the different perspectives you guys are coming from. Jaru likes to build on established stuff and then have fun by creating some reasonable fanfic around it. Not everyone shares your view that part of the fun of theories is being wrong, though. Others like spookydood or Andrew want to use a more scientific approach and follow the evidence wherever ever it may lead (which may be multiple plausible paths that they want to point out as possibilities). You call it analysis but others will call it theory-crafting. Spookydood or Andrew don’t hate Jaru-esque theories, they just want to make sure that people don’t take them as fact with no other possible ways the story could go (like the people in your knight video comment section who adamantly stand-by Kris = knight.)
I feel like people have extremely low expectations for Deltarune without even realizing it. Undertale is old enough that I think we've mostly forgotten just how wild it was the first time to have the entire game repeatedly crash during a boss fight, and "Is Gaster good or bad?" is far less interesting to me than "What is the weirdest thing you can do with GameMaker Studio 2?"
If anyone has earned the right to kick back and write a simple fantasy soap opera, it's Toby, but I'd honestly be crushed if he settled for as little as most of these theories promise.
(to clarify, I don't mean that fans should be trying to predict game design decisions, but that the methods by which Toby explores ideas are historically much more sophisticated than what most people seem to remember, and that bums me out because it means we've generally become numb to part of what made UT so groundbreaking.)
"[Toby Fox] likes the idea of child death" is one hell of a sentence
"do I think [Susie having abusive parents] is a good thing? yes" - JaruJaruJ 2023
I feel like toby is doing well if hes implying a real player. Having asriel be the possessor seems strange to me, and kind of out of character. I like the implied prescence of the player as a character, and having the game seemingly acknowledge you only to turn around and go "HAH you're not real TRICKED" feels strange. The player doesn't need to be perpetually acknowledged in order for them to be real, and it isn't a necessity for a good story.
I agree. A sudden plot twist about how we weren't controlling/playing as Kris this whole time, we were actually controlling *this random ghost*, and *they* were controlling Kris would be surprising and strange
@@campanullafae4806 Question, why the bold text and stars, I feel like i'm missing some meaning.
@@crazygamingoscar7325 You didn't miss anything, I made an attempt at adding emphasis and failed the formatting 🫡 Just imagine that "random ghost" and "they" are in italic
The theory about Noelle having a predisposition for violence when stressed or attacked makes sense, especially when you consider how she low key visions herself a victim of being bullied by Susie and submits to those who are intimidating or menacing. This behavior probably surfaced after the disappearance of Dess. It's like flight or fight pushed to the extreme because she actively looks for opportunities to frighten herself.
Gas leak theory is definitely a meme, it's referencing the chapter 1 cliffhanger fakeout
This was very fun to watch. I like seeing these videos. To see all the theories of the community and to see a little bit more about Jaru. Got to see what you like and dislike. Sorry to hear about the yandere stuff. Im sure most of us players and fans dont think the worst of you for the jokes. Some people just like to assume the worst. Or want to argue
Glad you enjyoed! And yeah, no worries. Some folks felt very strongly about the topic and chose to be hateful rather than kind. It's a shame, but I'll be fine. x)
why is the yandere trope supposed to be offensive?
The gas leak theory comes from ScottFalco
He made a joke about at the end of chapter 1 Kris just wanted pie and it turned out he did go and eat all the pie
Then made a similar joke to his chapter 2 video
About the Chess theory:in some languages bishop is called an officer and we will probably have Undyne in chapter 3
The asriel is dead theory is probably the most retarded theory i've ever heard. Mainly because it's based on the stupid thought process of "iT's WhAt ToBy WoUlD dO". Like, no, you don't know toby. Don't act like you can "predict" what he's going to do based on stuff he's ALREADY done. Asriel doesn't have to be dead, him being away from town for what seems like years is enough of a paralel. He doesn't need to be dead, especially since the dreemurr family is even more distant in undertale, meanwhile in deltarune toriel and asgore are just a few houses away.
It just feels like the average crackhead theory that people meme about.
"Oh a new jaru video"
*its 3 hours long*
"Oh its a *JARU* video"
I'm surprised The Knight = Vessel theory is actually decently high up in the rankings 😅
I came up with the theory because it sounded like something the story would go with, mostly because nobody else would think of it. It's sounds basic (and a bit generic at this point in this extremely large community) but also, I think it would genuinely surprise a lot of people because Toby knows most of the fan base feedback is on the internet (mostly TH-cam) and story-wise, it sounds amazing in my head. 😅
"Gaster and you create the ultimate vessel with a personality you give them gets discard by..... someone, and Gaster picks up the pieces and makes the discarded vessel 'The Roaring Knight' who convinces King, Queen, and the other leaders (in their own way) to support Gaster's cause! It's GENIUS!!!!" 😅
Geez that was long 😅
That's awesome! I can definitely see why you'd like that theory! I hope my wording didn't come across as mean or harsh! I really meant no disrespect to the theorists in question. 😅
I'm kinda confused, maybe I misread what Jaru was saying but why is he so antagonistic towards player theories. Finding the player stuff less interesting than the general universe is fine (and I'd even say I agree) but he's acting almost like Toby Fox hasn't done a lot to foreshadow the player being important in the plot. Like I was under the impression the player was absolutely going to be important in some aspect of the plot so I'm a little confused to see him so sure that it would be a bad decision.
I've always considered the player to be a part of the meta-narrative, and not a part of the regular narrative. This is because us becoming a part of the regular narrative would undermine the stakes of the story by having a god-like entity introduced who views the whole world as nothing more than a game.
@@JaruJaruJ I have a lot I could say but at risk of sounding incoherent I'll just say I disagree, the player has already been made important in multiple different aspects (weird route, vessel creation, gaster talking to us the player, kris clearly (imo) not liking being controlled, etc) I personally think it would be pretty lame to set up a conflict as unique as player vs main character and not take advantage of it in the main narrative. I can't say I understand your perspective but I can't really judge, I'm certainly no master of undertale/deltarune lore. I will say though that I don't see how them being in a game makes them any less real as characters, all of the events in the game happen to them regardless of whether or not they are in a game, I like videogames for their ability to tell narratives through their game-y-ness not in spite of it. Whatever, I could go on but its better I stop here, keep up the good content, I couldn't imagine spending this much time on a tierlist lmao.
Jaru I think it’s very clear you would really like OMORI. I won’t give more details than that in case you haven’t heard much about it before but I’m just saying if you ever kickstart the playthrough channel again that would be some lucrative content.
I'm simply replying to bring more attention to this comment lol, ignore it if you want. But yeah I think Jaru would really like the nuance to the player character.
Probably haven't heard a lot of these theories, that makes this more interesting hearing new theories
also I can't believe Shayy doesn't have a TH-cam channel based off the description lol
shayy does have a youtube channel I think
Shayy does have a TH-cam channel, they post mostly undertale/deltarune speed runs and challenges as far as I know
@@Ciurk I know, I've been subscribed for well over a year now, that was a joke because it's just a twitch link instead of a link to their channel
@@SemiHypercube oh. I feel dum now
A personal theory of mine re: Wierd Route which I think could be cool is if Berdly lives, but he's changed somehow. Maybe he doesn't remember anything, maybe he's bedridden/comatose for the rest of the game but regardless he remains as a haunting reminder of what Noelle did in her "dream". This is not to say Lightners can't die in the Dark World - Noelle did say she didn't know that spell, maybe she really did cast it wrong? That'd be a very Toby Fox thing to do.
Point is, I can imagine a bunch of ways where Berdly surviving the wierd route could be as unsettling, if not even moreso than him dying. But honestly I'd say this is a C tier theory - I just think it might be cool.
That could certainly be cool!
@@JaruJaruJ I actually had an idea for a really uncomfortable scene after writing that comment, going off Berdly not remembering anything.
You have an increasingly frayed and unsettled Noelle trying to broach the subject of what happened to Berdly, but he assumes she means she "froze" him in Super Smashing Fighters and brushes it off, which gets Noelle increasingly upset and desperate trying to get Berdly to remember, partially to get answers and partially to prove to herself it actually happened. Berdly however just thinks she's getting wierdly upset over a videogame match he doesn't even remember, and thinking it might be some underlying emotional issue, tries to gently ask if everythings okay at home.
I think it'd be amazing because it's almost like unintentional gaslighting - Berdly is undermining Noelle's own experiences, but he doesn't remember what happened either.
@@Colddirectorgood lord that’s the most unsettling stuff I’ve ever read.
Like seriously this gave me chills.
jaru sounds like a tarot card reader when he considers the theories lol
Ive seen a few other theories that didnt make it on this tier list, but if you ever do a part two for this tier list the two i really would like to see you cover are Angel's Hell by Spookydood and The Twilight Zone theory by Value Network, both theories that make some pretty interesting connections.
I'll keep that in mind. x)
Behold, the shortest Jaru video!
I can’t wait to sink my teeth into this I love the Deltarune fan theory community
"berdly beign actually freaking de@d, I think its great" got me laughing so hard
So, I've actually got a personal theory in regards to the world of Deltatune in particular that I'd like your vote on. We know that Toby Fox stated that Deltarune takes place in a different world from Undertale, but I theorize that the worlds are not so dissimilar. In fact, they are only separated by one singular event; more a consequence of the Butterfly Effect than the whole world being built from the ground up. Consider this: Deltarune takes place in a world where Chara never ate the buttercups and perished.
Perhaps fear stopped them from going through with their plan; perhaps Asgore and Toriel got wise to it and stopped them; perhaps Asriel put his foot down and stopped the Fallen Child from doing something stupid and self-destructive for the "betterment of Monsterkind." Whatever the case, Chara never took their own life, Asriel never took in their soul, and the two never died on that fateful day, however long ago. A day, I theorize, which wasn't that far back; at most ten years or so.
With the two Royal Children still alive, the Underground never fell into despair. Asgore never declared human lives forfeit and, as such, never formed the Royal Guard. This explains why Undyne had both of her eyes; as she never had to rise through the ranks of the Royal Guard, we can presume whatever fight she previously lost her eye in never took place. This also explains why the two Royal Guard characters are still just friends; they never had the events occur where they were brought together.
And lets talk about the children. With no hunt for humans, the children who fell into the Underground were welcomed as friends. While we can't assume they were all friendly, this means that, with the Fallen Child's help, the barrier could have been broken by the combined efforts of the children before Frisk even fell into the Underground. This would explain why Asgore has the flowers colored like the seven human souls; it's in remembrance/honor to those children, who likely returned to their families upon leaving the Underground. The Fallen Child, with their implied dark past, may have decided to stay with their found family instead, opting to not return to what was implied to be an abusive home life.
This also would mean that, while she still became the Royal Scientist after Gaster's shattering, Alpyhs never performed the same Determination experiments that she did prior, meaning the Amalgamates never came into being. This sadly does mean those monsters just perished, which we can see confirmed in the Graveyard. Also, this would mean Alphys likely never returned to the Garbage Dump after becoming the Royal Scientist, as she never had that same sense of self-loathing after her catastrophic failure with the Amalgamates. This means she never would have met Undyne, explaining why the two don't know one-another now. And, for the last bit on Alphys, she *also* wouldn't have made Mettaton, at least not in the same capacity as she had in Undertale. After all, Mettaton was made to hunt humans, but the monster who inhabited it had their own goals and personality that dominated the robot's whole persona. Without the need for a human-hunting robot, the idea was never driven to completion and was left a dream. This might go to explaining why NEO was nothing more than a discarded dream, why Mettaton appears to still be a ghost - or at least still lives beside Nabstablook in their old house.
Most importantly, this explains why Asriel is alive, and reveals to us the identity of Kris. After all, we never knew the Fallen Child's real name, as you stated previously. So why *couldn't* Kris be them, but just ten years or so older? Now in the tail end of high school, while Asriel has gone on to college. This would correlate with Kris' affinity for knifes, sharing the Fallen Child's "spooky face," and matching their relationship to the Dreemur family. It's my belief that Toriel and Asgore's divorce is purely a normal one, born from emotional incompatibility and not child murder, which is why Asgore is actually trying to mend those bridges and be her friend.
Now, how does this affect things going forward? Well, if my theory is correct, then it can give us a clear line of logic to connect events going forward. For instance, Papyrus - whenever he actually appears, - will not be as obsessed with becoming a member of the Royal Guard. He's likely never even become friends with Undyne - which makes sense, as Sans has stated that he doesn't have any friends. This means, the bubbly, lanky skeleton will likely need a new method to try and become popular, fitting into many people's theories that Papyrus was tricked into becoming the Knight to seek popularity in the Dark Worlds; places of adventure and wonder. That's just one of the many implications of this theory, but more importantly, it's an example of how discering the most logical direction this world came from can also help us predict it's future.
It's also my theory that Gaster - or Geoff, - wanted to see how us as the players would react given certain situations and stimuli, that he guided the pattern of this world's story to see what we would do, to survey our responses and study our actions. He changed the little detail of the Fallen Child's death, then altered some more later down the line - things like the possibility that Magic doesn't exist in the Light World and other things of that nature. Now, he watches us, recording our actions as a whole. I actually wonder sometimes, if Deltarune might go even more meta and claim data on our choices in some unseen tally elsewhere. Like, if Toby Fox is keenly aware of things like... When did the first person begin the Snowgrave route? How many people have done that route? In Chapter 1, how many people went purely Pacifist and how many people craved violence? I mean, Deltarune was originally called Survey_Program after all, implying it's role as an information gathering tool.
Toby Fox knows at this point that anything placed in the game's code can and will be discovered. However, information he himself gathers on his end of things would be beyond our reach. And what better way to sucker punch us with a meta message than to make us take a grim look at our reality as a species; at the cold hard reality that we as a species are willing to do terrible things in the name of discovery, exploration, and satisfying our curiosity. This was, of course, the message of the Genocide route, but this time, we'll have a character to potentially parallel us in our drive for discovery; Gaster himself. Now, I don't believe this will be used in such a way as to directly affect the characters, but rather be a way for Gaster to actively interact with us, the player, and bring a mirror onto our actions not just as an individual, but as a species.
Another small mini-theory is that Gaster doesn't want to kill anyone himself; he seeks to see our actions and wishes to keep his ducks in a row, so should he want a person back, he could, at any time, bring them back into the game. And that's where Dess comes in. She was removed to give Noelle a particular path in her life, a goal to achieve and a fear she wishes to prevent. Dess' disappearance is a major driving force for her, and without it, she might have forever been the shy, reserved girl. So, to make her take those steps, Gaster pulled Dess from play... Hence, why she is lost in the Code. He did not wish to kill her, as that would be to much; she would cease to be a piece he could use then, a variable that would be set in stone, rather than... well, variable.
As for Toby Fox lying on things... As a DM for DnD games for *years* know, I know that sometimes, a good storyteller needs to lie or tell half truths to catch people unawares. That's a side effect of media today; Toby knew what directions people would take with their theorizing and could have laid traps and pitfalls to throw us off. After all, Toby is not the voice of God; he's an annoying dog, working away on a computer. He's a troll who hits us with a car. He sends awkward pictures involving an excessive amount of soap bubbles. I don't think he's above telling us a lie or half truth to keep us guessing and questioning his honesty.
But yikes, that was a lot. This is a weighty theory, and I've put a lot of thought into it; I don't think I've ever seen anyone else directly state this theory, but I might be wrong.
I love the way you reason with theories! This is a super cool video :)
Someone needs to count how many times Jaru says “toby” or “toby fox’ here HAHAHAHAH
Thank you! 😄
This channel is probably my favorite long form content channel to listen to when grinding things out in video games. Keep up the good work Jaru.
Thank you! Will do!
For me personally, the chess theory is bad because it really doesn't work in other languages, because all the pieces named differently. And Toby is a big fan of japanese language, so It would be kinda weird to have this big thing just not work in the second main language of the game
i love how being bad at naming things is just part of the asgore lineage, and you just know thats true because in undertale when asriel turned into a flower he literally named himself flowey
Jaru being so excited about The Berdler being dead is so funny lol
But can you imagine if Snowgrave were just a easter egg? Like, there won't be any other "routes" in the game, just that time, and the only thing it does it remove Berdly from the game entirely.
Jaru loving trauma and bloodshed is brought up so many times that it’s funny
xD
THIS is the type of Deltarune content I love to see. Keep up the good work Jaru
I appreciate your dedication to correctly gendering characters and people, but the way you talk about mental health topics could use a lot of work
Elaborate.
I have a mini theory that ralsei will wear the hat again in chapter 3 in order to avoid being seen by toriel.
I like that theory!
10:25. I don't get it. Why would Flowey ask Chara not to kill everybody, and then ask us not to do it. He said "i'm talking about YOU" If you say "that's because we must let Chara posses us" but then he's still talking to us.
@@zeo4481 no, I think Jaru just doesn't want it. He said that he didn't like it, but it's already confirmed that the player is a very important part of the game
I'm just informing you that there are those in the community who don't believe Flowey is directly addressing the player, and that's why he uses Chara's name. I'm not saying I agree with that interpretation. Although, I will say, there's absolutely no confirmation that the player a "very important part of the game." I don't know what evidence you're citing to make that claim, but I guarantee it's not "confirmation."
@@JaruJaruJ Yeah, I guess that there's just as much evidence of the player being a very important part of the game as not a part of the game, but I think we do need to acknowledge that they have a part in the story
@@swiftly_produced2694 I just disagree.
@@JaruJaruJ In my opinion, the game does so much, even from the very beginning, to try and separate the player from Kris, from the entire intro sequence to more subtle things like Kris’ name showing up in the UI and tone-of-voice during lines of dialogue like after Spamton NEO. I feel like if the player wasn’t important to the game to a major extent, it would be strange to have so many separations of Kris and the player rather than just having Kris as a character for us to cast our personality onto.
To be fair though, we only have so much content in the game so far that we’ll just have to wait and see for new info that can shed light on this.
I love Oberon Smog, the fact that Gerson was the direct link to the deltarune name in undertale makes him so interesting in his lack of presence in Deltarune, so having Oberon be the knight is amazing since it FINALLY gives Gerson the presence that’s been practically built up from Undertale
with the comments about people saying asriel is dead, i went back to the chapter one intro and
asriel is stated to be coming back home "next week" (as of DR chapter 1's drive with toriel)
it's a very offhand mention that IS valid to have not noticed, but i still think it's important
i'll also drop a quickly brainstormed theory that
kris is making (more) dark worlds possibly so, when asriel comes home, they can make asriel stay with them forever (or some variation of it, like perhaps just wanting some sort of adventure or to 'share' the darkworld with him)
kris seems to cherish their time with asriel considering the hot cocoa interaction and might even idolize him in some way
(and maybe they even want to defend those memories from the player? i.e kris refusing to see asriels cyberworld room, but thats a tangent im not ready for)
Wait, how does Noelle not interesting to you because she has "no trauma" when there's the whole thing about Dess missing that left her to freeze or what have you during the spelling bee game with Berdly? You might say "oh Noelle had overcame this trauma since she was a kid" but did she?? She still think about her sister to this day, her father is in pretty bad condition despite him trying to reassure her and her mother overworking her so much and being quite controlling of her from what we hear about her have left her very, very meek and easy to manipulate by some peoples in the present. That to me show there's already something off with her, without needing the "Noelle attacked Darkners" theory to be right. (I doubt Snowgrave would have happened the way it did if Noelle was a perfect fine girl who was just shy is what i mean)
I haven't finished the video yet (it's a long one after all), so maybe you elaborate on that more later, but this part felt weird to me.
It's not that Noelle is uninteresting because she has no trauma. It's that Noelle isn't traumatized in an interesting way. Her being traumatized by Dess' disappearance, and this causing her to be meek and easy to manipulate, isn't active. It's passive. It doesn't prompt her to do interesting things. It prompts her to be a passenger in life, rather than a character who actively pursues things. That's boring to me. Susie being violent and going off on her own was the most interesting stage of Susie, for me. Kris removing their sou land doing stuff on their own is the most interesting stage of Kris, for me. If Noelle only does interesting stuff when she's forced to, then that makes whoever is forcing her interesting, and not Noelle herself. Also, it's not like a character NEEDS trauma to be interesting. But Noelle's regular personality bores me. She's a sweet, smart, popular girl who is shy and has a crush. That's as generic as it gets. So her getting some darkness injected into her character would boost my interest. I hope that all makes sense.
@@JaruJaruJ Feel that injecting darkness as the risk to make her more passive and another kind of one note than what you mentioned imo, if the snowgrave route is any indication (also that trauma with Dess feel linked to the potential "Noelle Attacked Darkner" accident, if that's what really happened, that mean it isn't that passive in the present, it's just more buried you could say). I understand that Noelle regular personality isn't as "strong" as the others (kinda like Ralsei), but I feel there's other way to make a character interesting like you mentioned without resorting to adding more "trauma" on top of 'em - again, like you mentioned .
I agree her current problem are more "passive" (though her father illness and her mother are definitely problems she gotta deal in the present, so she will have to be active one way or the other in their cases (abusive parent and probably-soon-dead parent is no fun business to deal with)), but the regular route as still has her grow out of that shyness that's been plaguing her for a long time thanks to being around Kris - a childhood friend of her who she still like despite (or because of even, her love of scary things in general is something that make her stand out among other "nice girl" characters type) their weirdo attitude and love of pranks around her - her repeated encounter with Berdly finally give her the courage to essentially stop him being so overprotective of her (dude's ready to bash her head with bullets to "save" her for crying out loud!) . Eventually culminating with her not get bossed around by Queen (who has lots of parallel with Noelle mom, again a present problem in her life) and tell her to buzz off at long last after a whole chapter of following Queen order or not fighting back at all. Note she tell Queen to buzz off while her friends are quite literally getting crushed to death by a giant robot hand in front of her. That take some balls to pull off that Noelle of Chapter 1 and start of 2 probably wouldn't have without her adventure. (also it's nothing serious and is more a gag, but her getting over her fear of rats is also a nice little exemple of her overcoming her fears and growing, ahem, stronger you could say)
All of that show to me that Noelle atm is intentionally showns as one of the most "passive" member of the group at the start -alongside Ralsei, who I also believe will grow out of his meekness and worship of the heroes/the prophecy thanks to their dialogues on acid lake - so that she will grow out of her "trauma" and become a stronger person in the future in a healthy way. (aka the opposite of snowgrave) Some of what I say do hinge in waiting more chapters to see where that growth will bring her, but what we have now is, imo imo lmao, a good, interesting start already, and more importantly, it mean she has goals to strive for. Which is always a important thing to have if you want a character to not be one long boring note.
I don't want to say you have to like everythin' I pointed out -everyone got their own tastes after all, and at the end of the day, it's Toby's story, not ours, so we don't have a final point on the matter, we're just sharin' opinion- bzt I guess all i'm trying to say is that, I think Toby can make characters interesting without making them more "unhinged" or "broken" in the process. (Ironically considering your list, but I think of Papyrus as a good exemple of a character that's interesting all the while not being broken at any point in Undertale. Something something him acting very hammy and funny yet he is actually very lonely and unpopular despite working hard, yet he still try his very best and is very, very supportive of his lazy and secretly very depressed brother despite not liking his puns and said lazy attitude, also also while's a nice guy, he's not a cinnamon bun who can't defend himself or doesn't know what's right or wrong . Abridged version, it's late here)
That's all I got. Not sure if I answer back, but hope it's a interesting read nonethless.
I can certainly see Noelle doing all that. I just don't seem myself enjoying it too much since it's so pedestrian. But hey, to each their own. If you enjoy characters like Papyrus and Noelle, that's great! I just don't.
I very disagree with your opinion on the player being detached from Deltarune story, there's way too many points leading to that being the case, and it's true they can all be explained another way, but at that point it introduces more holes in the puzzle that can be easily fit with "The Player" piece. Also, I agree about your Undertale point with the player meta narrative, but remember that Deltarune and Undertale are very different from each other. Very different.
Also I always thought Homophobic Toriel is a joke rather than actual theory lmao. And like with all running jokes, it can be either funny or cringe depending on the context used.
Finally finished the video. Was actually really interesting to see another people’s perspectives! Obviously we agreed on what were obvious memes, but I was kinda surprised at some of the things you were critical of that I have spouted off to my friends as my personal head-cannon. Each one of your videos make me want to start posting my own theories more and more but I already have 2 jobs and I’m like wow editing videos does not sound like a fun addition to all that. Maybe I will just make the laziest visuals possible and record everything in one take…
Sounds good! I'm incredibly lazy with my editing and still have a fun time, so I think you'd enjoy it! Thanks for the comment! :D
Just when I needed an overly long and elaborate Deltarune theory video, Jaru delivers. Man, this guy puts a TON of effort into his videos, you have my respect
It's great to see your videos on my weekend youtube lineup again. :) I can't wait for the next three chapters to drop. Your theory crafting will be going wild!!!
Glad you like them!
personally, ralsei liking the player and not kris is a theory i like, but not in the context of ralsei knowing about the player. what i do like is the context of kris not being all that fond of ralsei and that what he does like about them is the player's influence (my only issue with this being linked to the player is whoever is playing may just not like ralsei either)
The mad lad did it. He actually ranked every theory ever made™ about Deltarune!
Thanks again for discussing my Ralsei Hometown theory! You did a really good job of summarizing it. Even if it turns out to be wrong I had a fun time putting it together :)
Eyy! It was my pleasure! Thank YOU for making such a fun and refreshing theory! You deserve a lot more attention for that! :D
I’ve never heard of your “Asriel is dead and possessing Kris” theory but I LOVE IT. I never even considered the fact that Asriel could be dead and Toriel doesn’t know because she thinks he’s still at college. That would be so insane and so sad and kind of creepy
My most evidenceless and deranged Deltarune theory is that Asgores gonna frickin die. His life sucks and then he dies. I don't know how, maybe he'll die protecting the fun gang in a dark fountain against the knight, or from acute divorce. It doesn't really matter.
The best piece of 'evidence' for this prediction is that he doesn't survive in any ending in Undertale except for Pacifist, so it'd sorta rhyme if you couldn't save him in a normal playthrough.
Thanks for going to the trouble of putting this all together! Really interesting and I personally agree with most of it because my favourite theories are the ones that make the narrative more exciting and give us more insight into the characters.
No matter how the actual games go, I really, really appreciate all the theory crafting and analysis the community does because it greatly enriches the experience of these games, and keeps them alive between releases.
My pleasure! I'm glad you enjoyed. x)
its incredible that people actually believe the Homophobic Toriel theory haha
Personally Ralsei being a parallel to flowey but also a reversed image of flowey is great. Flowey is basically the opposite of Ralsei’s surface display.
Agreed!
I think Ralsei is actually the resurrected sister of Asriel and Asgore simply used anagrams to come up with another crappy name for her. Ralsei does guide Kris, but they look up to Kris as an older sibling.
@@justice8718”resurrected sister of asriel”?? where tf you come up with this stuff it makes no sense because ralsei is a boy, not girl and im pretty sure there would be traces of a sister.
@@eletgres519 Noelle doesn't see anything in Ralsei Tea and treats Ralsei as if she is dead.
Ralsei's mother (Toriel as represented by Queen) ignores Ralsei and also treats her like a dead person, a person that is no longer is with them.
Kris is uncomfortable by Ralsei and he, Toriel, and Noelle are very aware of the Dreemur Household and their dark secrets. To him, it's like watching a person coming back to life as a zombie and treating you as their eldest brother, since you are a part of her family now.
Susie has little to no knowledge about the original Ralsei and only she has a very positive response to Ralsei Tea, since she is only aware of the Ralsei revived in the Darkner world. So, she sees nothing wrong with her no does she flat out ignore her existence.