Luthier Tips du Jour Mailbag 37 - Pandora's Box
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ค. 2024
- Luthier and Instructor, Robert O'Brien, shows how to use a steam box to help bend a cutaway guitar side.
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obrienguitars.com
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This might be my favorite! Thanks for all the details and light-hearted bending.
Glad you enjoyed it Elaine. Thanks for watching!
That is very useful information thanks. I'm planning to try steam bending some wooden tubes, so I've been scouring the interwebs looking for ideas, information and inspitation. I originally found your channel because I am making a router base, so I am glad that I found this also. Thanks for sharing.
dude i so relate to your comments about praying [NOT betting} before a cutaway bend. at one point,years back, with the water off heated and steamed my sides a plastic garbage bag in the summer sun. pulled it off too.. good tips here...
fantastic work,...
Before this segment was taped, Robbie and I did a IRW cutaway side using the Pandoras box when I was there for one of the building classes. Boy did this bring back all the PF we felt then! Did it exactly the same way, with me manning the heat gun.
What a terrific video ( I'm still sweating ) thanks very much for all your advice.
Great tip.
I suppose Karen was planning on bending the non-cutaway side and bindings back at her place. You've got that equipment working for you, sir. Good job.
Inspiration. Thank you.
Hi Symon... we me at the Holy Grail briefly... see you round the interwebs.
If you're interested in venting steam pressure before you open your steam box, you could equip it wtih a ball valve someplace. A "T" in the hose, or a fitting someplace on the box would work. Just open the valve before you open the box.
super
Interesting video. Thanks for sharing. My only comment is that I would have thinned down the cutaway portion of the treble side to 1.5mm's or slightly less before bending, especially since it was Brazilian rosewood. Also, going from the steam box to the bending machine, time is of the essence! It must be done quickly! Otherwise, the effect of steaming will be of no use as the moisture will simply evaporate before putting the steamed side into the bending machine.
Nice
Dear Robert:
I just received from LMI, a set of Plans featuring a 1966 Ramirez guitar, an instrument that is highly regarded by those who are knowledgable. I was surprised to read from the plan, that the sides are laminated with Cypress on the inside with the outside being of Rosewood, 1.5 mm for the Rosewood, 1.0 mm for the Cypress . Now I have built Dreadnaught styled guitars, and have bent the sides and binding for them, but since this is my first Classical Guitar, I thought that I would use LMI's shop services to expedite the project. Since Señor Ramirez was not trying to meet a price point I presume that he had a good reason for using laminated sides, though no one seems to know what they are. How do I proceed, I can thickness the woods and laminate them, but since they are to be subjected to heat and steam, I would think that Resorcinol or Epoxy which are used for marine applications would be the best adhesive but how do I bend them (I am presuming that LMI won't provide this service given the laminate problems). I would be using a section of stainless steel pipe with a 250 watt light bulb for heat to bend the sides. I am afraid that the sides will de-laminate while bending? I'm stumped! I want to follow specifications as closely as possible, but I don't know how to proceed. I have bent quite thick (5 and 6 quarters) quarter sawn white oak for frames for a boat and for furniture by boiling them in my bluing rinse tanks before bending, but I'm pretty sure that this will de-laminate the sides as will steaming in a box. I have no way to laminate after bending (I don't think). Should I just go ahead and use solid wood sides and forget the specifications on the print? I really don't want to do this, as I assume Señor Ramirez had good reasons for using a Rosewood/Cypress laminate. On the other hand, if there is no advantage to laminating the sides, perhaps I should just go ahead and use solid Bocote, Mahogany, or Acacia. Is there any hope for me in guitar building.
By the way, I did build the 6 inch aluminum sanding disc and a temporary fence this AM, I used a 3/8" piece of aluminum, drilled a quarter inch hole in the center, mounted a 1/4" pin on the "T" track insert in my belt sander table and trued it up on the sander, I had already mounted the arbor using three 1/4X20 bolts with washers and lockwashers, it is a screw type arbor with a 1/2" shank cut short to minimize shake. It worked well up to about 4,000 RPM and sands stock quite thin. I think that the optimum RPM is 2,500 RPM. I haven't found there is any need to balance the assembly, nor have I figured out how to do so, it isn't like using gravity as one does with bandsaw wheels.
If you can advise me about the Ramirez plan and it's laminated sides, please do so. I may just abandon the project and enroll in your on-line class, I already have a copy of your plan, and the Hauser plan as well, and quite a bit of suitable wood in the way of Quarter sawn White Oak, Hard Rock Curly Maple, Mahogany billets, and a some large slabs of Bocote and Black Acacia, all well seasoned, laid it in before my late wife got sick. The projects are forgotten now, my wife needed me more than I needed the shop so I spent the last 10 years caring for her.
Best Regards
Don Denison
I've added liquid fabric softener(the laundry stuff) to the water with good results. I found this tip on YT after I initially bent some sapele into a cutaway bend and ended up with a lot of cracks in the grain. I added the fabric softener for the second try and it worked much better. The fabric softener apparently changes the strength of the wood grain much as it does the fabric. Worked great for me.
What the softener does is lowering the surface tension of the water thus allowing it to penetrate deeper in to the wood.
thats amazing Robbie, thanks for the video, one question though, how come the purfling of the bindings didn't delaminate? is there a special trick?
+Behrad NG No trick,. They just didn't delaminate. I use titebond 2 or 3 for purflings.
+OBrienGuitar Thanks for the quick response robbie
Another great video. Thanks! Seems like if you finished the inside and edges of the steamer box with a few coats of marine varnish, it wouldn't matter very much what kind of wood you used to make the box.
I would be worried that the varnish will return to liquid state at those temperatures.
HI Thanks for you video. I bended some tassie blackwood a year ago. wrapping it in the foil turned it completely black (and a bit of green) like in your video. I ended up not using the sides as it was disastrous in my opinion. I found out that wrapping the wood in backing paper first worked well. However I'm wondering how do you clean the wood from the black stains afterwards ? Regards, Loz
some woods will react with aluminum and or water that has not been distilled. Apparently Tassie blackwood is another wood to watch out for. The black stains could be a reaction to the aluminum as well or it could be that too much heat was used.
Hi,
What are you using for a steam source?
I've decided to give this a try for some ebony - I was having terrible results on a pipe- but don't know what to use for steam.
Thanks!
+R. Sparky Weintraut I am using the Rockler steam bending kit. www.rockler.com/steam-bending-kit-w-free-bentwood-carryall-plan-download
I noticed your sequence, spring steel, wrapped wood, spring steel, heating blanket on top...and I know that the LMI bender has a different recommended sequence, I believe it is spring steel, blanket, wood, spring steel...I use the Lmi sequence but it is troublesome and I do experience a bit of spring back. What is your basic recommendation? thanks!!
+David Howard I have done it every way you can think of and they all work. Find a way that works for you and go with it.
+David Howard one method I know is to bend it a little more (about 20%) and then after it springs back it comes where it should be. I have not done it myself, but I have seen it work perfectly
what do you do to prevent all the oils and other substances of the wood to come up with the heat and stain it badly while bending?
+Apostolis Karatzas You can use less heat. This helps but will not eliminate it altogether. usually this residue just scrapes or sands off pretty quickly.
Hey Robert, I've noticed that you are only using one full sized heat blanket here in this video for bending a 'very difficult' side set. Yet LMI sells an additional waist, and cutaway blanket. In the original video you made for LMI you are shown using a waist blanket and a full length. Is the fact that you are not using it at the time of making the above video evidence that you've found them to not be entirely necessary for your personal process? Thanks again for all your excellent responses to everyone's questions!
+Jedidiah Wiebe The reason I am not using both blankets here is that I am not using an LMI bending machine. I am bending a cutaway here. When I use the LMI bender I use both blankets just like I show in the video I did for that process.
+OBrienGuitars Touche! Thanks for the quick response! Enjoying your videos so much! Thanks :-)
why the steam box when you used the LMII bender would not the steamer box work on its own ? thank you
+Walter Rider I still think the heat blanket and bender in addition to the steam box gives me the best results.
Hi, im in colorado and am building a bender is there a metal supply in our area to buy spring steel in small quantities for my bender, id rather not mail order if possible thanks
+Edad Martin I am sure they exist but I can't think of any right now.
I wonder if this same method can be used for bending mandolin sides?
I don't see why it couldn't work for mandolin sides
Question: Does heating the wet wood to 300F with the the blanket make it steam and make the steamer box at 210F redundant?
for wood that is highly figured and difficult the steam box seems to make it more elastic before bending.
Robbie, have you used Pandora's Box with birds-eye maple? Good or bad idea? Talk about knots! Just looking at this wood sends me towards a nervous breakdown. I would love to hear your advise.
I generally bend highly figured maple almost dry. I don't think I would steam it first.
@@OBrienGuitarsThanks for the answer. So when you use the LMI bending machine, you just light spritz highly figured wood?
@@ChrisC811 Yes, a very light spritz
@@OBrienGuitars Robbie, thanks again! Any guitars that I make that come out happy will be due to your help and teaching on instructional videos.
olá mestre, por qual motivo ocorrem essas ondulações as vezes?
normalmente acontecem quando a madeira nao está com corte radial. Tenta reduzir a humidade e temperatura nao hora de envergar.
Why use the steamer ? Can it be bend directly !
Yes you can and I often do. However, if you have a high dollar set of figured wood this method helps lower the pucker factor a bit.