I am sorry‥ but I am afraid that this black and white so-discernment view of the force game is rigged from the start… in other words, your view this presentation that is discussed, sees The Force as too far 1-Dimension black and white. 👎 If that kind of black and white pulp-fic view-based judgement is that easy, then why The Jedi would easily see all those follies of making these kind of decisions that a dark-sider would have make that will surely will lead The Jedi only to some sort of a dark-sided disaster that only lead The Jedi 3 time to there own Jedi purge, such example as The first Jedi Purge, throughout the Star Wars′ history?
Regard Gray Jedi argument. Grey Jedi are most of all Jedi! All Light Sith were heretics, who despite practicing art of Dark Side, come to same conclusion as Jedi. What actually make them not a Dark Side users anymore. Generally term Gray Jedi refereed to three categories: 1) Members of Jedi Order, who disagree with the council. But still fallow they commands. Example of that was Qui Gon Jin. And it is worth to remind that it was because he was Padawan of Dooku. But despite that he stay loyal to the Jedi Order. 2) Ex-Jedi who refused to abandon using The Force. Jedi Order didn't like them, but until they didn't do anything suspicious, they couldn't really do much with that. Example of this type was Ashoka Tano. 3) Jedi who know some Dark Side techniques. Sometimes it happen that Jedi learn how to do that. They typically refuse to use them, until absolutely nesesery. But they still could. Examples: Mace Windu and Luke Skywalker. 4) Gray Paladins. Were not real Gray Jedi, but ancient group of Jedi Warriors operating more as mercenaries. For example using the blasters. Anyway. The crime of the Jedi during movie era, was that they condemn Jedi Sentinels and many of them confused fallowing rules of the Order, with fallowing will of the Force. Real Jedi Sentinels like Mitra Surik, use powers what were in a way close to Dark Side. They for example could track Force users with limited use of Force Drain. Jedi Healers commonly were also doing that, transferring life-force. Jedi didn't understand or trust them, as such most Sentinels were delegated to Agricultural duties. Han Solo, who was extremely powerful in use of Force Sense, but he was straight ignored by the Order (yes, he was Jedi Sentinel). It is why Jedi Temple Guards could not detect Sith who infiltrated them. Anyway, there is a reason why most Jedi who survived were Sentinels or Gray Jedi. Obi Wan despite being born Guardian, also start questioning rules of the Jedi what saved his life. For example Grevious was extremely vulnerable to the Force. Yet he slain many Jedi, because they in hubris challenged him on the sword fight. At one point Obi Wan start simply using Force Push and blasters against him and so he did win.
In the galactic criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups: the galactic police and investigators who find crime, and the attorneys and senators who prosecute the offenders. These are their stories…BUM BUM!
Mariska Hagartay? She's Jayne Mansfield's daughter, and Jayne? She was a proud member of the Church of Satan and paramour to High Priest Anton Szandor LaVey
I still think the Jedi should've allowed romantic attachments, yes Anakin's love for Padme was inherently unhealthy but I still think having a skilled couples counselor on site would have fixed it, also just generally having therapists on site
Also speaking of falling to the dark side, wouldn't kicking someone out of the Order for getting married or encouraging them to leave increase the risk of falling to the dark side? Like all they've ever known is the Order and suddenly that's gone and with it all the alleged supports the Jedi have, wouldn't it make more sense to have Jedi in romantic relationships stay in the Order so they could be coached on how to handle them instead of being thrown out to the wolves?
@@m310grassnot sure how many have actually been kicked out specifically due to their relationships. I think it’s typically treated as more of a taboo, or a practice of detachment, and so they advise against close relationships. It is, however, unavoidable, because attachment comes anyway, even to the most devout of Jedi(evidenced fully in one line: “you were my brother, Anakin!”)
Luke's New Order did allow families but it certainly had its own share of problems that went along with that. As well as it's own fair number of fallen Jedi and Sith Lords.
The reason it was unhealthy is because Anakin didn't know what he was doing and had to figure all of this out himself. That plus the stress of wartime, feeling like his own family doesn't trust him, and grooming from Palpatine and yeah.
I disagree with the attachment issue significantly because of Luke Skywalker, his Order while flawed like any order in Jedi history proved it was still possible to train older force sensitives to be a force for good while still being able to have families and relationships.
The Jedi forbade relationships not because relationships were a problem. They forbade it as an extra precaution against the risk of attachment. You could compare it to building a fence ten feet away from the edge of a cliff, so that if someone leaned against it and it fell, the person wouldn’t immediately fall over the edge of the cliff. To your point, yes, relationships and love are all possible while staying firmly in the Light side. But the Jedi of Luke’s Order had to be extra cautious that their love did not become attachment. The difference between Luke’s Jedi Order and the former Jedi Order here boils down to different approaches to the same problem. One built a fence ten feet away from the edge, the other gave everybody cliff safety training. Which option is best is ultimately up to the individual and what they think is best for themselves.
Ive never heard such a good metaphor@@GGBlaster ! Gonna use that now, instead of saying things like "there's many ways to skin a cat" or other such sayings. Most people I talk to are casual star wars fans and I don't have time to go indepth with them, nor do they care that much. But this gets the point across succinctly!
@@GGBlaster Jedi are a religious Order, they obviously need to have a Code of some sort, but as Qui-Gon said, Codes should not existence solely to govern *behaviour*. They should instead merely act as a guide or roadmap to understanding the Force. In other words, what is truly important about any rule is the *spirit* of the law, rather than the 'letter’ of the law. In some ways, never allowing the Jedi to experience these sorts of relationships merely attempts to remove any form of 'temptation’ towards attachment from their paths. Whereas, it’s more difficult, perhaps, to find a level of detachment in one’s outlook and actions while one has actual 'attachments’ in form of loved ones, but ultimately this would help Jedi achieve a truer and more lasting form of 'non-attachment’ But an even deeper problem is simply that the Prequel Jedi are never taught to handle attachments in a healthy manner. There are ways to cope with the fear of losing your loved ones, but the Jedi didn't seem to know or care about those, they simply prohibited having loved ones in the first place. In “Into The Dark" a Jedi very strongly talks about how it is almost perverse that he's expected not to outwardly mourn for long, and the driving theme of Rise of the Red Blade is that the Jedi Order never met Iskat's emotional needs. So in theory they do not actively suppress emotion. But in practice they definitely do. It's just rather than it being the Orders own doctrine it's a trap they fall into. While, yes, the Jedi as a whole do not advocate suprressing emotions, there are absolutely Jedi who interpret Jedi teachings as such. There's a great character in a Star Wars video game, Knights of the Old Republic, named Jolee. He quit the Jedi order out of frustration with the institutional philosophies around love and attachment. In the game, he says this: "The Jedi, with their damnable sense of over-caution, would tell you love is something to avoid. Thankfully, anyone who's even partially alive knows that's not true. Love doesn't lead to the dark side. Passion can lead to rage and fear, and can be controlled... but passion is not the same thing as love. Controlling your passions while being in love... that's what they should teach you to beware. But love itself will save you... not condemn you." “Love causes pain, certainly. Inevitably, love is going to lead to as much sorrow and regret as it does joy. I suppose there are perfect, eternal loves out there, but I haven't seen any. How you deal with the bad part of love is what determines your character, what determines the dark side's hold over you."
@@GGBlaster I really like that way of describing the concept, but I do think you are giving the pre imperial Jedi order a bit too much credit. Attachments can be a path to the dark side, but they are also what grounds a person. someone who denies themselves any attachments is never going to be able to truly understand the needs of the galaxy, because they have emotionally segregated themselves from that galaxy. They may be at less of an individual risk of falling, but the trade off was always the entire order becoming too uninformed to do its job properly, which always enabled the sith to rise again under their noses. a great example of this is actually Luke and vader themselves. It was anakin's attachment to his friends that motivated him to become such a successful Jedi, but it was also those same attachments that made him desperate enough to join the dark side. But far from trying to prove his father's view on attachments wrong, Luke was just as if not more invested in his emotional attachments as Anakin was, and it was that investment that saved Vader and destroyed the empire. If Luke had followed Jedi teachings around attachments, the empire would have never been defeated and the Jedi order would have been snuffed out completely. EDIT: if it's not obvious, I just finished the last season of bad batch and I am seeing stars from all the "no brothers left behind" grass I've been smoking.
@@valdamirlebanon4508 You are right that total detachment can blind someone to the issues plaguing greater society. However, the Jedi’s detachment isn’t truly the cause of their problems and eventual fall. In fact, in a twist of irony, it was the Jedi Order’s attachment to the Senate that caused the Jedi to blindly side with the Huk and attack the Kaleesh, eventually creating General Grievous. It was that same attachment that turned peacekeepers into generals, that caused heroes to commit war crimes, and that eventually positioned every Jedi within the crosshairs of a good soldier following orders. And to be clear, I personally disagree with total detachment from personal connections. My original point was to show how different groups or generations may approach a question/problem in different ways. And my point still stands: you can cut a hole in the fence and step through, and you’re still 8-9 feet away from the edge of the cliff. Anakin fell because he, unlike his son Luke (legends Luke), inched too close and lost his footing. The Jedi before the Empire thought it was in their best interests - at that time, in their circumstances - to place a wide buffer zone between themselves and the Dark Side. This is akin to, say, avoiding bars if you want to go/stay sober, which for some people is a far safer option for them, as opposed to others who feel secure enough to enjoy a burger and fries without ordering any strong drinks.
@@ryandunham1047 Nah, Palpatine would definitely be the kind of guy who would personally kill a mailman who had what he wanted and then kill everyone who directly helped him. It's true that Palpatine could certainly do this, while Benny wouldn't have as much skill, soo the game could still exist
I've always suspected that the story of Darth Vectivus might be a lie because his story doesn't make any sense. I mean, you have a guy who is for a lack of a better word, a CEO who finds the Sith. Yes, Rule of Two Sith used different identities is to blend in with the Galactic Society but they use those same identities to advance the Sith grand plan. And for Vectivus there is no sign of that. They say he died in peace surrounded by people he loved, but even then the only way for Sith to die during the rule of two era they had to kill each other. So things don't add up with Vectivus because there was only one role and one plan he could have stuck to: Sith.
Even if you disagree with the Jedi and even if you find them to be evil, the pragmatist in all of us has to stand with them. If for no other reason than the Rule of Two being so monumentally effective at guiding the Sith to unparalleled individual power that it threatens the entire galaxy on the reg. So we side with the Jedi just to ensure that the Jedi get to Force sensitives first.
And that final point is something that the later Fel Empire addresses. For as loyal as the Imperial Knights were to their Emperor or Empress, their ultimate loyalty was to the Force, specifically the light side, and if it became clear that their leading was slipping down a dark path they had full authority to act and intervene, thus preventing the Empire itself from slipping down a dark path.
@@williamcostigan91 If the kings and kings’guard was like that Westeros would been a better place something that Jaime would have been a knight that he dream of becoming.
Holy fuck it’s finally here. MONTHS in the works, MONTHS of waiting for the day. And it has arrived. Those of us who’re diehard Geetly’s fans couldn’t sleep until now.
The Jedi were a force of Good for the galaxy. I have no doubts the Galaxy would have fallen to darkness without the Jedi in it. However, while keeping a watchful eye on everything for any sign of the Sith, they became too narrow-visioned and overconfident in themselves. It was these flaws that led to the Jedi being destroyed. Yes, the Sith evolved to become beings the Jedi couldn't detect. The Jedi didn't evolve at all, sticking with the old ways and making the rules more strict and rigid. It's a shame but fact of the matter is the Jedi helped mold an enemy they couldn't see or touch...until it was too late.
Regarding the first point of how the Galaxy would be much darker without the Jedi, I made a similar comment in the original post: if the Jedi or an equivalent faction didn't exist, then there would be many more examples of ambitious Force Sensitives giving into the Dark Side - either intentionally or instinctively - for various reasons and eventually there would reach a point where several of those using the Force to gain power would reach a galactic level and the Galaxy would turn into what the New Sith Wars could have been (and likely was in areas deep in Sith territory that the Jedi couldn't reach) if the Jedi weren't present to oppose any of the significant Sith Lords.
They were written as the good guys. Therefore, they are the good guys. Even in the new material they are the good guys. That doesn't mean they are perfect. That doesn't mean they are not flawed. But they are still better than the bad guys. They can shine a light on their imperfections all day long but that doesn't change the facts. It doesn't change anything. It just makes them more human and realistic.
You’re absolutely right! While there are a few bad apples for the Jedi and may have a flawed code, they aren’t evil. I do think that most Jedi were good people with good intentions, it’s just that reality is often more complex than black and white
And yet the bad guys were the ones that brought peace , prosparity and security to the galaxy . Ironic isn't it ? The Jedi with all that potential sit in their little fort while the galaxy was ruled by corruption within the Galactic Senate which allowed Darth Sidious to take control and nearly exterminate them. Because of their lack of perception and their lack of willingness to do anything about it until it was far too late. Their biggest flaws were lack of perception skills and their inaction when they could clearly see that the Senate was becoming more and more corrupt. This is why Count Dooku left the Order and became a pawn to the dark side. Also like to point out that Anakin Skywalker's decapitation of Count Dooku was actually a war crime. Because Dooku was unarmed therefore no longer a combatant thus a Prisoner of War at this point. And even in Star Wars killing POWs is a war crime. Of course when it comes to the overall Jedi Order we could add it to the laundry list of crimes and war crimes they have committed over generations and never charged for. Throughout the Clone Wars we see Jedi commit perfidy (false surrender) and torture (via invasive, painful Force interrogation) of POW's , and in the case above murder of a POW. Using children under the age of 15 is a war crime under international law and would be the same in the Star Wars universe especially under the Republic. Note Ahsoka for instance is only 14 when she first appears. And were not even going to get into the fact that the Clones themselves were 9 years old children in adult bodies. The Republic and Jedi committed so many war crimes it wasn't funny in the Clone Wars. So the Jedi weren't the good guys or the bad guys. They were just an order of monks basically who got involved in politics and ended up doing horrible things during the Clone Wars beyond just being terrible commanders.
The Jedi will always be the good guys it better them protecting the galaxy over a sith maniacs rule the galaxy who subjugate it people,terrorize them and even destroy planets for their pleasure and displeasure.
@@John2r1that isn’t “ironic” at all, because it just isn’t true. The Sith create the situation where there stopped being peace, when was the galaxy not secure before they started the war? And what prosperity did we see that didn’t exist under the Republic? The Jedi’s goals aren’t and never were to rule the galaxy. They were not lawmakers, they were not politicians. If you want a theological dictatorship then you’re looking for another group. Who promoted him to commit that war crime? The guy you’re claiming brought peace, prosperity and security to the galaxy. All of the war crimes you’re currently wanting to address are because of the group you’re defending. You seem to continually ignore that aspect of it. And clearly it is not the same in the Star Wars universe because those teenagers were LITERALLY conscripted into the military. Your take is just awful, not only does it it isn’t even a legitimate bad faith argument. It’s just making up lore to fit what you want to be true.
I don’t agree with the Anakin section at all. The disrespectful level of mistrust created a self fulfilling prophecy, and then they were like, “See! I told you he was bad!”
I firmly agree. The thing is if they were going to cave in to train him at all, they could not half ass it. They needed to accept that Anakin was going to have baggage that he would require extra help to overcome if he were to ever fulfill the prophecy.
I find the disrespect argument especially compelling because the result was balanced on such a knife's edge. If Anakin had just stayed in the council chambers as commanded a little longer, or just chosen not to interfere when he arrived, Mace Windu would have won.
@@RoyalFusilier That is partially why I and the OG commenter disagree with Geetlys. I find it to be overly presumptuous to say that Anakin would have fallen regardless of the Jedi trusted Anakin or not. The future is not set and stone, and even after all the factors that swayed Anakin to turn, it was still hard for him to do so. In a twisted way, the Council's lack of trust in Anakin only created a self fulfilling prophecy. So sure, they were technically right not to trust him, but that was only because they took the actions that all but handed Anakin over to Palpatine. These are mistakes that Qui Gon likely would not have made, hence why it is widely accepted that Anakin never would had fallen if Qui Gon was the one to train him.
Jedi Bashing became popular among Star Wars fans with the release of The Clone Wars' fifth season, particularly the "Ahsoka on Trial" arc. Dave Filoni intentionally portrayed Jedi characters as rigid, establishment figures to elevate his own creation, Ahsoka Tano, as a brave and rebellious maverick. Before The Clone Wars TV series, the original Star Wars: Republic comic stories had depicted Jedi as fully fleshed-out, complex characters who were compelling and interesting. Filoni's approach shifted the narrative, arguably undermining this earlier, more nuanced storytelling.
@@jefferybrown6473KOTOR 1 and 2 is up for interpretation unlike Filoni’s TCW. That’s just the popular narrative and interpretations of KOTOR. Ultimately, we see the Jedi were on to something and it wasnt just rigidness. People just choose to remove the nuance in favor of their side
Wow names the agriculture core but not the healing core or education core also there was raising other younglings and all kinds of stuff a padawan could do I personally would have became a librarian assistant in the temple library
I think 'Attachment' should be swapped for 'Possessiveness' so people have a better idea of what the Jedi mean. As for Romantic love, well, Revan succeeded where Jolee failed. Personally, I think the Jedi should have installed themselves as kings of the Sith race until they were ready to rule themselves again, like they had with the Pius Dea Republic (you left out how the Jedi were so paranoid they started torturing Sith until they figured out how to sever a Force Sensitive from his power, which after watching Korra, I'm at odds with.) Their PR department being nonexistent also made things so much harder for them. 1:50:51 You don't get to alienate and disrespect someone for over thirteen years and yell 'I knew you were no good' when he turns on you. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Either they train Anakin and try to make the best of it, or reject him, and then Palpatine offers to teach him. Anakin went berserk on the Sand People because he was told to forget about his mother, who he'd last seen enslaved. If they had done more to get him on their side, I think he'd have stayed loyal. Mace Windu was always stupid. Besides, you yourself noted that if they made Anakin a master, he would have learned Palpatine was lying about Darth Plagueis. One of the things I like about TCW is his early promotion and padawan assignment, as it shows them demonstrating trust to gain his trust.
I believe this: I agree with your verdict for the most part, but I disagree VERY heavily with the recruitment process, the teachings about the Dark Side, and the view on romance. That said, I am also biased towards Luke's take on the order, so I might be untrustworthy for a non-biased reason for why, and thus recommend seeing Stupendouswave's videos on Luke's order as well as videos on this topic by EckhartsLadder for what Luke's order did with training, recruitment, the attachment and Dark Side views, etc. As they can explain it FAR better than I ever can. If you want, I can post specific links to specific videos for clarification.
i think even Luke admits his order is incredibly risky. And that the younger you can start the better, so many members of his were older because he basically had no alternative. Attachment wise his order also consistently has rather serious problems. Yes some of them were repaired, but so many fell or nearly fell that it blows the prequels order out of the water in proportion of lost jedi.
@@ryandunham1047 Ah sorry most of my comments pertain to legends unless I specify 'disney' or 'original films'. With insane difficulty most likely. That said, an important thing to note is that IRL I was brought up with two very important things in mind: One was that, of course, everyone dies. Eventually they will be lost, and when that happens it will hurt, but it also needs to be accepted. It does neither of us good to grieve until I also die, or to act rashly because of it. The other was just as important if not more, that I should never do evil for a loved one. Whether it's to save them, or because they ask for it. So while I don't have jedi training specifically, I do have the two most important aspects of attachments in great importance. And am quite dedicated to sticking to it. Emotionally I'd be freaking devastated if certain people died, but it would likely remain only emotionally and temporarily. It has to be treated not just as a habit, but as a duty. Now that being said, if I were force sensitive, but not appropriately trained (just as I am now, but with the ability to *use* the force not just have it) I'd likely have to give up using the force for awhile unless I could get into a calming meditation. Because the pain would be too much to risk it. Jedi get a lot of help with that regardless, calming meditations I think are in all versions. And the force itself being an active presence would likely provide a very considerable relief emotionally as I could really feel like they simply returned to it, as I would too one day (just...as long as I'm patient).
@@firstnamelastname9237 The problem is the VAST majority of us don't have said patience, or can't really afford it sometimes. I unfortunately have a near hair trigger temper, had one for almost my whole life. I wouldn't be able to deal with losing something near so healthily. And with the fact that it seems the Force in Star Wars is emotion powered, that makes me fall to the dark, even if I have no malice in it. :( It just seems like Force Sensitivity essentially makes people CONSTANTLY walking on a razor's edge. That does NOT sound like ANY way to even remotely live, at least in my opinion. Hell, can we even verifiably say they are happy with their lifestyle?
Here's my verdict: the New Jedi Order (from Legends) did a much better job. Because they either saw the mistakes made by the old Order or didn't know about it. They did a better job at making sure that they weren't tied to one single government and went out into the galaxy and helped planets, even if they weren't part of the Republic.
oh geez i disagree with alot in the emotions section. specififcally with that of anakin. for one: his relationship requiring secrecy to begin with, pitted that relationship against the jedi from the onset. to say its a good example is a bad faith argument disregarding crucial context.
I know‥ It is just they are that so of a force for good, only as a 1-dimensional-minded sense of perspective, that in strong opinion at the least, if not straight-out “in no shadow of a doubt whatsoever”, that no sort of true spiritual-based faith faction worth their weight in salt, that supposedly to understand all-universal balance should not perceive reality as in that kind of either manner or fashion.
Flaws don’t make you wrong or evil. They make you human. The Jedi strove for a higher way of life, and I think we looked at them stumbling along the way and cynically looked at it as hypocrisy. I suppose that, with all our flaws, we might have become jealous of those who decided to not let their flaws define them.
The idea of the Jedi being the Real villains started out, at least I thought, as a joke. Kind of like, Die Hard is a Christmas movie! It's a joke, a troll, a lark, a prank... But not everyone seemed to have understood that.. Jedi are good, despite their many flaws. The Sith are evil, despite their relatability. We live in a Very messed up time when it has to be explained Why God is good and the Devil is evil...
Part of the problem here I think is that there is appeal to that theory, the way jedi portrayed in the movies is just not expansive enough. I imagine same thing would happen to W40K if/when it comes to that medium, there is just no real way of explaining why bad things has to happen to innocents in a short time of a movie. Clone wars animated series were good exactly because they dived much more into mundane horrors of life in SWU.
I still think they should've at least trained any older force sensitives to at least learn to control their powers enough to prevent them from accidentally affecting people's minds, etc. Seeing as how it's apparently X-Men level nonsense if you don't teach them how to control it.
I think the only war the Jedi were actually responsible for was the Jedi civil war, if the Jedi had been there to support Revan’s followers during the mandalorian wars, been there to guide the young knights, they may have not fallen to the dark side and the Jedi civil way may not have happened
That one was a tricky one because at that time, the Jedi did stand by their principles that they were not meant to be war lords. Essentially, the Clone Wars is what happens when the Jedi do get involved, the Mandalorian Wars is what happens when they don't.
It wasn’t really a singular Sith who did all that damage, it was 850 or so years worth of other Sith Lords schemes, plus him teaming with Dooku, Maul, and Anakin. Yeah Palpatine was super smart but he made a lot of errors that in any other Era in the SW timeline, would’ve got him wiped. Hell he was an Apprentice during the beginning of the Phantom menace, Plaguies helped him set up everything he ever did as a Sith directly or indirectly
All this not to mention that the New Jedi Order, under the initial leadership of Luke Skywalker, as well as later in the Legacy Era, solved a great deal of the flaws the Order had as a whole, to the point where marriage and romantic love ended up working out, finally proving that, if dealt with correctly, it was not only possible to have romantic love while remaining disciplined, but that, as Jolee Bindo said thousands of years earlier, "Love will save you, not condemn you." The New Jedi Order also got into some fairly consistent conflicts with the New Republic, and later the Galactic Federation, to the point of eventually outright aligning with the Corellian Rebels and the Mandalorians during the Second Galactic Civil War. Then, during and after the Aboleth Crisis, the New Jedi Order not only admitted to wrongdoing when accused of it rightfully and repented, they ended up committing a coup against the Federation government led by Daala (who was a bad person to elect in the first place, but I digress), somewhat echoing the Pius Dea coup thousands of years earlier. And finally, though we don't have much in the way of official details due to the Disney Acquisition, we know that the Federation and the New Empire, led by Emperor Ronin Fel and Jaina Fel Solo, eventually had some sort of falling out which led to the displacement of the Federation as the dominant galactic power, which then ruled until the Legacy Era. Due to the corruption within the Federation, the personal character and integrity of Ronin Fel, and his marriage to Jaina, we can easily infer that the Fel Empire must have gained at least partial, if not full support from the New Jedi Order, both because of the Fel Empire's victory (let's face it, it _would_ have been at least a short war, though it probably would've taken a few years) and the splintering of the New Jedi Order into Luke's Jedi Order on Ossus and Jaina's Imperial Knights under the Fel Dynasty. Which lead to a protracted era of peace and rebuilding, as well as the New Jedi Order finally splitting away completely from government involvement and retreating to Ossus to remain as peacekeepers and humanitarian aid workers. It would've been interesting to see how the New Jedi Order evolved throughout the Legacy Era, after having combined with the Fel Empire and Galactic Federation to become the Galactic Triumvirate post-Darth Krayt, especially in how they interacted with the Legacy Era Imperial Knights.
I’ve noticed a lot of people who tend not to like Jedi just follow popular theories, opinions and misconceptions. Some are just flat out dense and omit parts of Star Wars or situations to make the Jedi look evil or to be a contrarian. Like on Instagram today, I saw a short about how Darth Vader isnt cold hearted because he spared Starkiller. Despite Vader training Starkiller for selfish gain and using him to unleash even more terror on the Galaxy. They conveniently left that part out
The only reason Vader ever left Galen alive was because of his power. Even as a boy, he was stronger than his father according to Vader. Vader sensed his power and just assumed Galen was a Jedi Master before he figured out he was actually a kid.
@@floricel_112Don’t you know wookies don’t count as people! The empire says since they can’t even speak basic, they’re clearly unintelligent! Those were just monsters, probably would have eaten the kid if vader didn’t stop them!
Destiny and free will arnt contrary the are complimentary. Destiny is the path you were always ment to take. No one can see their destiny until its obtained. Free will is just the choices we make to achieve our destiny. If one sees their Destiny too early it will also throw off their free will. Trying to avoid a thing or achieve a thing and every choice brings you closer or futher almost like struggling in quicksand.
The main flaw of the Jedi is they got satisfied, they aren't miracle workers despite the magic but they should have always been striving to improve both their order and the galaxy whenever possible
The bad marks in my book are: 1) breaking kids from families. Yes, it's consensual by the parents, but it's just not good for the kid. That's not how you teach someone to be secure and empathetic. A lot of THAT learning comes from having a mom, dad, and siblings. 2) A focus on NO emotion rather than "emotion, yet peace". Though I'll chalk this one up to a mistranslation, since some of the Jedi Code translations phrase it this way. 3) Arguably the celibate thing. Like that's common for clerical orders in the real world, but it's also a good way to breed yourselves out of existence, since Force sensitivity seems at least partially hereditary. And it should probably be noted that for the real world, those orders were often made up of the 3rd or 4th sons - people who wouldn't HAVE the resources to support a family/kids, so ofc they're going to be encouraged to not do so. There's a cultural element, not just a religious one, which may not apply to sci fi where human culture is assumed to be more "first world", with smaller families and birth control.
Who are you to decide what is “good for kids”? Telling parents what they should do with their kids is a wild thing to suggest. And I have no idea how you drew the conclusion that someone can’t be raised in a secure and empathetic way if they’re not with their birth parents. That’s a shockingly tone deaf thing to say. That is EXACTLY what they teach. I honestly have no idea where the idea that Jedi were taught to have no emotions even came from. You cannot name a single Jedi who doesn’t display emotion. In fact, most of the Jedi we see demonstrate an intense level of compassion that ends up being problematic. Jedi are not “celibate.” They have sex and they drink. They aren’t supposed to be in serious long term relationships that might lead them to compromise their allegiance to the Jedi Order.
@@VArisTHE_sinnerrr To be fair, it only became a problem because the Jedi didn't really bother to help him deal with it in a healthy way and just expected him to completely detach himself of his former life, which just wasn't going to happen.
@@rickyrobby8133 actaully yes and no. The jedi of the prequels didn’t get sex. The Tuscan reformations basically said no family’s and the jedi council harped down on this. Anything before and after the prequel era jedi did have sex. Depending on the era. The view on relationships wanted from “Ok” to “your getting exiled from the order”. The jedi are very complex and have a myriad of different types of people. All flawed and all with different opinions.
I have to disagree in the case of Ashoka's trial. Since it really was a matter of guilty until proven innocent. More importantly the Council didn't even try to investigate. Yes there ability to investigate was hampered but to not even try. To me that's tant amount to fire fighters showing up to a fire and going well were having a hard time getting to the fire hydrant so we're not going to bother with this fire. As for the Jedi Bering no responsibility for the creation of the Sith again I have to disagree. When your organization makes it there dutie to annihilate an entire civilization down to the last child you but if some survive and hate you for it it's definitely your fault.
How is that at all true? The entire arc is her escaping prison before any trial. The entire storyline is them just trying to get capture her so that there can be a trial. There are three episodes prior to the hunt for Ashoka that was an investigation. It all ended up pointing to Ashoka. They make it very clear in the video and you still are latching on to the same problem. It happens in movies all the time too. We as the audience know more information, so it seems like the “law” isn’t doing their job. However, that’s only because we know from a 3rd person perspective that the main character isn’t guilty. From a person in that world’s perspective she is very clearly guilty, and it would be a very well crafted conspiracy for her to not be. The only real defense would be, “but we really like Ashoka and think she’s a good person.” You don’t think people would say the same thing about Bariss Offee? That also is absolutely NOT what happens to the Sith.
@@rickyrobby8133 My point is that the Council wasn't even willing to entertain the idea Ahsoka might be innocent nope just drum her out and then in hindsight oh well that was your test and you pass. As for the Sith so your telling me that the moment they were ordered to fight to the death the entire species became immune to incapacitation sorry don't buy it. I could incapacitate you but you want to die so death it is
@@NekoKat. I feel like you didn’t listen to what they said in this video or read what I wrote. The Jedi weren’t deciding if she was innocent or not. That’s what the trial was for. She had escaped custody and was being brought in for the trial. Clones were killed which meant it was no longer an internal matter for the Jedi to decide on. The Republic courts were going to put her on trial. What you’re saying would be the equivalent of a cop escaping custody on suspicion of killing people and you responding with, “well I think the police should do more investigating. I don’t see any reason why the cop should be arrested and put on trial. It should be an internal matter for the police to figure out.” It would be an absolutely insane way to view the case, and would be a very clear example of corruption. You’re not seeing it that way because you like Ashoka and you know she wasn’t guilty. That isn’t what I said about the Sith at all. What I said was that isn’t what happened, because it isn’t. He talks about that in the video too. It’s just incorrect to claim that the Jedi did it. The Sith Lords forced all of the lower class Sith species to fight to the death against the Republic and to commit ritualistic suicide if defeat was eminent. It is entirely false that the Jedi intended to destroy their entire species.
@@rickyrobby8133 I think on this one were going to have to agree to disagree. While I will absolutely admit I do like Ashoka I still believe the council could and should have done more. It still comes down to the fact that the Sith wouldn't have given the order to fight to the death and commit mass suicide had the Jedi taken the high road at the end of the hyperspace war and just let the Sith retreat.
@@NekoKat. I do not agree to disagree. You’re just wrong. Most of what you’re saying is just not factually accurate and the rest is just a crazy interpretation. You’re choosing to ignore information that you don’t like. What should the Council have done? Not tracked her down after she escaped custody? Ignored all the evidence presented? Denied the Republic access to put her on trial? Again, imagine if we weren’t talking about someone you like that you know is innocent. If there was a cop in this situation there’s NO WAY you’d be saying this about them. You’re only thinking this way because you’re a fan of the character. You’re not being objective. And that is absolutely not what it comes down to. And the fact that’s the conclusion you’d come to says everything. You either have a ridiculously biased view of the Jedi that you’re unwilling to budge on or you’re just not very knowledgeable about the lore. Concluding that what happened was the result of the Jedi being hell bent on genocide rather than the Sith just being evil is straight up laughable.
54:01 Nope. Hi, counselor here. These are the words describing what Anakin ultimately needs to *do*. However, a principle of counseling is to meet the patient where they are. What use is telling Anakin what he needs to do, if he’s so unready to hear those words that they effectively drive him from the counseling process? The first thing to do is keep him engaged. Be an open listener. Listen, importantly, *without judgment* and *with* empathy. Yoda is capable of all of that. What he does instead is cut short to something he might have gone many sessions without raising with Anakin. After listening and empathizing, Yoda could offer advice that bridges what Anakin needs to do and what he feels capable of doing. For example: just getting him to stop keeping secrets, to cough up a little more trust in Yoda and/or Obi-Wan, if not the Order overall. Or, getting some distance from his emotions and reality-testing his fears. How likely *is* the loss that he fears? The future is always in motion. Are there concrete steps he can take to prevent that loss? (Short of joining the Sith?) Yes, many. So the job of the counselor isn’t to advise change - it’s to help motivate it. Big difference. Yoda tried to tell Anakin what to do to find relief, instead of joining him on the journey to insight as to what would provide that relief.
A point that has been made more than a few times in this video that I very much disagree with is about training Anakin Skywalker. Saying that the Jedi Order should _never_ have trained Anakin (due to what he would become) is an absolute fallacy. Now before I continue with my point I *will* admit that Anakin’s flaws are very transparent, has been susceptible to Palpatine’s manipulation via grooming, and that his attachments did give way to him turning to the dark side. And yes, Anakin was arrogant, cocky, and very emotional. If he had been found much earlier OR took his training more seriously, he probably would’ve still be a Revan sort of individual down the road. However, as Jolee Bindo has brought up (in this very video, and has been acknowledged for Luke & Vader vs Anakin & Padme): “Love doesn't lead to the dark side. Passion can lead to rage and fear, and can be controlled... but passion is not the same thing as love. Controlling your passions while being in love... that's what they should teach you to beware. But love, itself, will save you... not condemn you.” Now back to the point I was trying to make: the Jedi training Anakin wasn’t a mistake. While the Jedi Order ostensibly made the mistake of training Anakin, bear in mind that up to his fall to the dark side the Jedi Order as a whole (as well as Padme to an extent) helped mold Anakin into a good man (not a good Jedi, but a good yet flawed man, war crimes and vengeful genocide of the Tuskens aside). If the Jedi refused to train Anakin, then Palpatine would’ve been able to swoop in and took over Skywalker’s “career with great interest”. While Palpatine might be busy playing both Chancellor Palpatine and Darth Sidious, he still would give rise to a Darth Vader withOUT the compassion and love that would’ve been key to his own redemption; a Darth Vader without being inhibited by his self doubts, regrets, and other influences of Anakin to hold him back (ie no Padme, Ahsoka, the twins, etc). He would’ve eventually help destroy the Jedi Order where they stand, as well as potentially overthrow his own Master in the process. Now, of course, that’s “best case scenario” of what _could_ happen if Palpatine trained Vader into his perfect apprentice without any spanner in the plans. Essentially speaking: the Jedi Order would’ve either had to deal with Darth Vader sooner or later, regardless as to whether he was trained by the Jedi or not. Just as the Jedi were caught between a Rock and a Hard Place during the Clone Wars, the training of Anakin Skywalker was gonna happen (whether by the Jedi or the Sith through one way or another). TLDR: saying the Jedi’s mistake regarding Anakin Skywalker was basically training him is FAR from a a much greater mistake had he instead been taken in by the Sith for Sith training where he would be able to reach his dark side potential much earlier and potentially bring about the destruction of the Jedi Order.
Your Ahsoka argument is wrong. How does everyone forget that the reason that the Jedi asked Ahsoka to investigate the Temple bombing was because she wasn’t there when it occurred. They already knew that it was likely an inside job. Since Ahsoka (and Anakin) was not there, they knew that she had nothing to do with it. Even in the footage that framed her for choking the suspect that she went to interrogate, it is obvious she is not deploying a “force choke”. Even if she needed to be detained for choking the suspect, she still couldn’t have had anything to do with the bombing. It’s just a huge plot hole that has always bothered me. Plus the footage of the interrogation, that I also mentioned.
The Jedi weren't putting her on trial, the republic was, thus the Jedi's opinion on the matter didn't matter, also yes to us the audience and possibly the Jedi it may have been obvious that Ashoka wasn't choking her, but to the republic citizens and personnel they had no idea, and they realistically couldn't have known Another thing is that it being an inside job is exactly why it's reasonable to believe Ashoka did it, she wasn't the one who blew up the temple, that guy was, so she could have easily given him the nano things and left with Anakin for their mission, it was all set up so so incredibly well by Barris
I generally agree with most of your points and think you did a pretty solid case in defending the Jedi from many misconceptions. What I do not agree with was the Jedi lacking a choice in the Clone Wars. Especially the choice of whether to have padawans fight in the war. By all practical means they did. While it is true that Palpatine did draft the Jedi into the war, the Republic was in no position to full on turn on the Jedi if they said no. Remember, at the start of the Clone Wars there were only 1.2 million clones compared to the over 120 million battle droids utilized by the Separatists. Simply, the Republic at this time did not even have enough manpower to quell the Separatist uprisings. As such, any attempt to have the Jedi hunted down as "traitors" during the earlier years of the Clone Wars would rightfully be seen as madness by any logical politician, Palpatine's agenda be damned. In conjunction to this first point, I absolutely do believe the Jedi would have been able to refrain from padawans fighting in the war when they were unqualified to be battlefield commanders and even worse were children, and instead make clear that only knights onwards would join in the fight. Again, what is Palpatine really going to do if the Jedi make this stance? Risk fracturing the Republic even further? That would only undermine his narrative of being able to keep the galaxy together when he would essentially cause a two front war. At that point, I don't even believe Dooku deliberately holding back the Separatists would be enough to prevent them from winning the war. Like I said, agree with most of your points but I don't think you considered all the factors in relation to the Jedi's participation in the Clone Wars.
They don't represent the Light, Dark and balance, but selflessnes, selfishness and the Will of the force. You may notice that the son didn't fall to the Dark Side until he killed the Sister, as Obi-Wan pointed out. Geetslys actually made a video about this topic /watch?v=CmhqCo5we3Q
I think we (like some of the societies in Star Wars) have conflated the Ones of Mortis to be gods of the Force or to be incarnations of aspects of the Force. The truth is that they aren’t - they’re just extremely powerful force-wielding entities, who, as we’ve seen in the Mortis arc, are also subject to most of humanity’s own vices and virtues. Notice that at no time does the Father use any Dark Side power. In fact, he actively warns his son, the Brother, against its temptation. The Father acts as a balancing control over his children, but the Daughter never needed much control, because she willfully submitted to her Father. The Son, on the other hand, rebelled and resented his Father’s wisdom and counsel, and required sharp correction to keep him from disrupting the delicate balance in the Force.
From what I've seen the Son exists because the dark side exists, and same with the daughter, she exists only because the light side exists, and the father is the embodiment of the force itself, much like Anakin was
While the Sith Grand Plan had one definitive goal, every Dark Lord had their own vision for how to use the preparations their predecessors set in place. Darth Tenebrous for example wanted to make the Force and thus the Jedi obsolete by advancing technology. Plagues and Sidious had roughly the same idea, but only Sidious planned and executed the whole thing, whilst Plagues was busy with his studies. So yeah, it was mostly Sidious' plan
@@dorianwiesner4477 sort of, Sidious was able to expedite and advance the plan while simultaneously cutting plagueis out of the picture. He wouldn't have gotten to that point without Plagueis getting him 75-80% of the way there. not to mention his shortsighted planning post clone wars. EU expands greatly on the threat that sidious had to plan for, but in canon, he just builds two INCREDIBLY ECONOMICALLY CRIPPLING deathstars, for seemingly little reason, or at the very least a vague looming threat that never manifests.
He didn’t though. For one, that is one out of *so many* failures even if you assume he was attached. For 2, it’s only in the original films where you can claim it was wrong even if you call it attachment. Any expansion beyond the films and we see he either gets loopy or he admits the severe risk. And for 3. Geetsly actually *did* by pointing out luke wasn’t attached anyway.
Funny, I asked in the last video when this one was coming out and low and behold its the very next video out. LOL. Also, cool I got mentioned in the list on the video twice and in the pinned comment. My comment wasn't quoted, but still, it was nice to get the acknowledgment, although I would like to point out that like I said in my comment in the Community Post, I still think Yoda could have worded his message to Anakin a bit better in Episode 3, at least the part about missing and mouring and telling him not to at all, like you said in the video the Jedi allowed their members time to do that stuff so they could recover and move on but Yoda just said out right to not miss or mourn in that scene. Honstly, Obi-Wan is good example of what Yoda was going for done right, in terms of Qui-Gon and Satine, as he told Anain in the 2003 Clone Wars mirco-series in Chapter 21 not a day goes by that he doesn't think of Qui-Gon and look to his teachings for guidance, and in the case of Satine he mentioned in Season 7 of The Clone Wars when Bo-Katan questioned if she even meant anything to him he says she did and still does but that he can't emoitions cloud his judgement, by doing so he would betray himself and the man Satine fell in love with, so he still misses and mours Qui-Gon and Satine all the time, but he doesn't let that sadness consume him, he continues on doing his best to honor their memories and not compremiss who he is and that is why Obi-Wan is one of the best Jedi around. Also, I still think they could have stopped Sidious, but again Sidious is a masterful planer and adaptor so there are only a few very small windows to do it in during both the led-up to the Clone Wars and during the Clone Wars themselves. Even when things don't go as planned, like with the Republic gaining the Nexus Routes in The Clone Wars or the Separatists not gaining control of the Rendili fleet in the Republic comics Sidious still finds ways to spin this to his advantage and make sure the Sith Grand Plan can still proceed. The plan might not have been perfect, as no plan truly can be, but it was as close to perfect as you can get at like 99% and Sidious being so smart managed to make sure that 1% didn't get the chance it would have had to stop him. While I didn't agree with all of you're arguments, overall I do agree with the final verdict, the Jedi Order was flawed, sometimes in a lot of places, but overall it was a good organization that helped the Galaxy and the people very greatly, even during the stuff leading up to fall the Clone Wars they still helped where they could, at least the members that didn't become completely hyperfocused on winning the war above all else or fell to the Darkside. Also, I like your descripition of The Will of the Force and the Jedi's views on free will from 8:34-9:02. Once again you delieverd another masterful video Geetsly. Very nice. You're videos have definitly inspired to make my own discussion videos, the few I do make, as good as I can. In a way you played a role in helping my own channel grow with the inspiration you have some videos. In fact, I met my good friend and fellow TH-camr Kking Orange in the comments of one of your Bad Batch videos three years ago, and the two of us, along with another, have joined together to do collaberative Star Wars dicussion videos, I never thought I'd be big enough to do that, so you indirectly helped me out there as well, as such I want to say thank you Geetsly for all you're great content and inspiration.
Before i actually watch this long video, my main ones are that they teach people to avoid difficult emotions instead of processing them in a healthy way, which sets their pupils up for failure, and they are more interested in maintaining stability than actually promoting justice. Anakin wouldn't have fallen to the Dark Side if he could have looked to the Jedi for guidance about Padme. The order restarted by Meetra Surik was probably the best version. She and her pupils actually worked through their flaws instead of pretending to be above them
Where are you getting that from? Who do we ever see be told to avoid difficult emotions? That never once happens. The exact opposite happens. The most iconic scene of the Prequels about Jedi emotions is Yoda telling Anakin that you have to accept death because it is a reality of the universe. Love the people you love, but be willing to let them go as well and live your life. That is a real life coping mechanism that people are taught to use when dealing with the death of loved ones or people who are soon to die. It also isn’t the Jedi’s job, or place to supersede the Republic and decide the fate of all sentient beings. That was never what they were intended to be. If that’s what you wanted from them, then you wanted the Sith to rule the galaxy.
@@rickyrobby8133 That may be what they say, but in practice, they tell people to avoid relationships. That is not healthy processing of emotions, that's just avoidant behavior that leaves people impoverished of fulfilling relationships. It wasn't an inherently bad thing that Anakin loved Padme or his mother, it was bad that he was expected to forgo those relationships to adhere to some ridiculous idea of detachment that no living person should have to put themselves through. Instead of teaching people to avoid relationships, they should teach Jedi how to have them but avoid falling to the Dark Side.
@@wallycola5653 your take is just absolutely ridiculous and completely devoid of any connection to the lore whatsoever. You’re making this up to fit what you want to be true, rather than what is actually in the story. The Jedi are ABSOLUTELY NOT told they cannot have relationships. Is the Padawan-Master connection not a relationship? You think that Jedi aren’t friends with each other? What you’re saying is just wildly incorrect. The “bad thing” is that Anakin was way too old to be trained in the first place. He should never have developed that sort of connection with his mother to begin with and then been sent to train as a Jedi. Also why are you acting like this isn’t a real thing people do. Monks, priests, nuns, and other members of religious groups have chosen to forgo romantic relationships for legitimately thousands of years. The idea no living person should be put through that is nonsense. It’s also ignoring that the vast majority of Jedi did just that. Again, you’re making up lore to fit what you want to be true, instead of talking what actually happens. That NEVER HAPPENS. It is never once stated that Jedi are taught to avoid making connections with people.
You guys do realize that was a terrible hatchet job right? Most of your defense was essentially, "you're wrong because we said so." Overlooking most in universe explanations and criticisms. You also skated right by the Mandalorian wars. Where the Jedi council were not, in fact, correct. That's essentially the whole point of the Kotor games, and comics. At the core of it, most of your arguments are, as you stated from the start, simply an apologist's attempt to justify the order. Simple black anf white morality still shows that they were thousands of years past expiration date when they burned.
I have to wonder if Anahkin wouldn't have just been scooped up by Palpatine anyway. At least, once he won the battle Naboo. Had he never left Tatooine, that brings a whole new variable to the mix. Including wither or not the battle of Naboo would have been won (though considering Padme managed to capture the Vicroy herself, it may have still ended in victory, just in a different way).
Personally, while I don't mind good faith criticisms, I like the Jedi enough that unreasonable bashing is less than appreciated. I live on AO3, so I respect the "Jedi Friendly" and Pro-Jedi" tags. I am not against the idea that the issue of Attachment is a messy issue in the Order, and on a whole, I don't think the Order handled Anakin right. I like fics that poke at those issues, but portray the Jedi as wanting to do better and improve.
To most clearly see that the Jedi Order was actually a good thing as a total, one only needs to look at times and places where it wasn't and how bad the lack of it is for most places. They were the ones who ended and prevented many horrible things, despite their own failings. They had some clear errors, but in most cases they did actually make things better. There's actually one point to consider that was just not mentioned here. In the event that a Force-sensitive person is born and no Jedi are around to affect the situation, that person is left entirely to whatever environment they have. This means in many cases Force-sensitive people could become outcasts, and in especially bad conditions they could end up just falling to the dark side even more easily than some Jedi did without anyone to teach them better. A person who becomes evil and learns to use Force abilities on their own is still quite a terrible occurrence, even if they wouldn't be as bad as a Sith. One of the things the Jedi would be responsible for reducing is the appearance of Force-sensitive murderers and thieves, a thing we never really see explored to my knowledge but one which realistically could happen.
Honestly though, my biggest accusation for an "are they worthy" style trial would be that we get so much of the nature of the Force from their perspective. All the black and white nature of the falling and the corruption and the attachment is told from their rather dogmatic viewpoint. Maybe certain aspects of reality aren't so corrupting if you're not a Sith or Jedi with all their wildly stringent takes. For ALL that the Jedi are so "sure" about the nature of things, they really missed the nature of things. And not just with Sidious. They lost long before when they became beholden to a political entity rather than literally just directly following the will of the force first and foremost. Even by their own standard, they begin the movies as basically irredemably lost. I can't call that anything other than corruption, and so I can't trust their perspective on the Force. Especially when that perspective is used to absolve their actions, I can't trust what they say about the nature if the world.
Although I would change how I phrased the first element of my comment regarding Fallen Jedi - the main times where blame could be heavily placed on those who trained the fallen would be cases such as the Mandalorian Wars/Jedi Civil Wars where Jedi Masters like Vrook and Atris actively refused to perform self reflection and if their actions had any impact on the decisions of those such as the Revanchists, where the issue arguably lies with their personality or other individual flaws - I still stand by the core of my comment on the post of how the Star Wars Galaxy would be a much darker place without the Jedi (thanks for the thanks in the pinned comment): Without a Galaxy scale organisation to provide a way to monitor and train Force Sensitives, it would be much more likely for there to be cases of Force Users to use their abilities for various forms of selfish means, especially in regions largely unaffected by early Galactic society (if we assume this scenario is a removal of the Jedi Order's predecessor and the Tho Yor ships) and eventually those using the Dark Side to gain power over others would start doing so beyond their homeworld and onto a Galactic stage at which point the Galaxy could have turned into a form of the New Sith Wars if the Jedi had not present to fight the various Sith Lords of the era. It's possible that this could be nihilistic as the Jedi aren't the only Light Side aligned Force based faction (in the same way the Sith aren't the only Dark Side aligned one) and therefore an equivalent group may have risen under different circumstances, it's possible that such a group may have only risen or been able to become powerful enough to make positive change on a Galactic scale in response to such Dark Side threats unlike in both versions of the Timeline where the Sith as an order emerged due to the fall of several Jedi which likely took active decisions to ignore warnings or forbidden aspects of the Force unlike some later Sith (fallen Jedi or otherwise) who were blind to their own steps towards the Dark Side until there was no escape from its grasp. Meanwhile there are multiple stretches of several centuries worth of (seemingly) peace on a Galactic scale in Legends which were likely in part thanks to the Jedi and several instances like the Great Hyperspace War or the Great Galactic War where they were among the Republic's first line of defence (with instances like the Great Galactic War's Battle of Bothawui ending in a Republic victory primarily being the result of Jedi taking action while the Old Republic itself was still in crisis mode debating on what to do about the Sith). Along with this, there are examples of how much of an impact that even lone and nomadic Jedi could have, such as how quickly Meetra Surik was able to defeat the Sith Triumvirate once she returned to Republic Space, along with the references made regarding the Jedi that joined Obi Wan's mission in issue 53 of Star Wars Republic.
Without the jedi there would be no sith. So to say they instead saved many lives is odd. If you cause a problem and then attempt to mitigate the damage you still caused the problem.
Yes and no. The Sith are break away from the Jedi but their very nature has showcased that the Sith or an organization like it would come to exist anyways. And as time has proven, the Sith’s conflict is not just towards the Jedi so even if the Jedi were wiped out, they still wouldn’t stop the violence they inflict.
Geetsly is pretty much where I prefer to come when I want more accurate lore. So happy to get this video. Edit: near the end. Yup. This video is exactly as good as expected. Love the videos!
While I agree with some arguments, like during the Mandalorian Wars, when they refused to help the Republic because the true threat hadn't shown itself, or with what happened with Meetra Surik, or the Ahsoka Tano trial, I would still defend the Order. I always believed the idea about when a Jedi falls to the Dark Side, it's not the failing of the teachings, it's the individual for not thinking ahead about possible consequences. Main reason of why I prefer the New Jedi Order after Luke Skywalker reformed. Mainly because in my opinion, it shows attachments, while can be risky, can be worth it, if you control your passions and such. Also, I agree the story of Darth Vectivus was possibly a lie. Also, a lot of people say the Jedi helps the Republic massacre the Sith after the Great Hyperspace War, the truth being the Sith refused to surrender because they were ordered to, and any who did were simply cut off from the Force, not executed. While I agree with some arguments, I still agree Anakin Skywalker is a good example of what happens when someone refuses to listen to words of wisdom. Also, I believed that even if the Clone Wars never happened, Anakin would have become a Sith anyway. Hence why I agree that while Jedi aren't perfect, their way is preferred over Sith. Plus, I always figured if the Jedi were given the choice to fight in the Clone Wars instead of being forced to, a lot of them would have refused. Which is why that while I understand why some people hate Jedi and some reasons being justified, the Republic had become a rotting corpse of itself by the Prequels and since the Order wasn't allowed to be seperate, it only made the fall of both inevitable. In the end, while I do like both, I would prefer to be a Jedi over a Sith.
I love the people who simultaneously say that the Jedi are the problem for training resultant Sith Lords, but then also criticise the Jedi for then unaliving their enemies. They TRIED the way of peace, they tried teaching them the correct way. They didn’t want to know.
*Be a Jedi; *life is sacred to you and your order; *go to a "lawless" planet; *buy a child slave (great idea); *do not buy or free the MOTHER of the child slave; *Mother is brutally murdered later; *child grows up and becomes evil; *Jedi: omg how could this happen?? I love Qui gon jinn, but that plan was bad man... (I haven't watched the whole video yet so if anything happens I'll edit it later)
1:57:57 If Anikan was granted the rank of Master, and aloud to check the off limits archives, he could've fact checked Palpatine's story and realized that there was no such sith the Jedi knew of, or technique the jedi knew of for Immortality. He then would've groan suspicious of Palpatine and would've probably arrested, or at least confronted him about being the sith Lord. The Jedi not being transparent or teaching their members about the darkisde, its techniques, and the issues that come with them is a major flaw and a reason they fell. They also did a very, very poor job of explaining emotions to their members, why their there, and how to use them. Just meditating and letting them pass is a horrible idea. In episode 2, Anikan's flirting with padme was very cheesy and bad because he didn't know what love is or how to express it. He was never taught. also, you should do another episode like this, but have it be a collab with Alan from Generation Tech and have him be the prosecutor.
53:36 he literally said "miss them do not" and you're really tryna argue that the jedi were okay with people taking their time to mourne? He then says "train YOURSELF to let go" translating to "you're on your own"
I think the main issue with that is the way Yoda communicates the point to Anakin. The idea behind it makes sense, even though one of the main roles of a Jedi is to defend life, there will be times where (whether due to factors such as illness, random acts that couldn't be predicted or simply old age) nothing more can be done and it's best to just work through the grieving process which is what some may have argued as being Yoda's intention if the scene was less heavy handed with the dialogue. It's even possible that if a Jedi with a more traditional history within the Order may have taken his advice on board as it was if they were in a similar situation as Sharad Hett (having chosen to meet their family only to later discover they had died after getting to know them) and were seeking guidance. However, what Anakin needed at that point was to a: look at the situation rationally (like Padme does in the Novelisation) and b: be told that visions as vague as his (assuming that in an extended version of the sequence he would describe them as much as possible without giving away his secret) have often become self fulfilling when the one receiving them hyper fixates on trying to avoid the outcome.
As for the Jedi with no attachment rule is understandable looking at Anakin situation I do agree he should leave the order to raise his family but I also say he has potential to be a great Jedi looking at his son journey he just had to be more open to Obi Wan or change himself. While I say trying to save your wife is noble but it don’t fit in the dark side there always a price for that type of power. Just look at god of war Norse saga Freya and Bauldr,Freya had a prophecy of her son Bauldr death so she used her magic to make him invulnerable to all things but negative side he couldn’t feel,taste or smell anything. If Anakin had that similar ability give it to Padme he may had save her from dying but he took her right to live.
Okay if you're making a Star Trek channel you really should know that it's called the next generation not the new generation. I cringed pretty hard when I heard that
I don't think the Jedi care too much about honour, they just wanna get the job done, why potentially sacrifice lives when they could win by working together, I think Ghost Of Sushima or however it's spelt also talked about this and I agree with the main characters point of view that honour is weak and ineffective
Um your bias definatly shows . For one the fact that the Jedi decided to become so centralized is the lech pin in their own destruction. The Only Jedi to survive Order 66 where Yoda and 14 other members of the Jedi Order most of whom survived by sheer luck. All of whom where not at the Jedi Temple at the time. It is the same old story of the generals always fighting the last war. On which note the Battle of Geonosis proved that the Jedi are horrible commanders. They honestly wouldn't have been in the position of Generals if it wasn't for political moves that put these inexperienced galactic monks in a position of military leaderships. Second thing with regards to the Sith wars and what the outcome would have been if the Jedi had not stopped the Sith. Well you only have to look at the Galactic Empire and how it provided security , economic mobility for everyone willing to work, etc. For the average civilian who wasn't a criminal or rebel life under the Empire was generally peaceful. Then bad decisions caused a minor rebellion to grow into a major problem. The Mandalorian makes a good case for this factor about the Sith rule of the galaxy as the Empire. Quote " The Empire improves every system it touches,Judge by any metric: safety, prosperity, trade opportunity, peace. Compare Imperial rule to what is happening now. Look outside. Is the world more peaceful since the revolution? I see nothing but death and chaos." -- The Client from the Mandalorian episode 3. So apparently though the polar opposite of the Jedi the Sith aren't actually hell bent on destruction. It would seem that they simply want to control the galaxy unopposed. Are the Sith cruel and evil individuals yes. But if you had a time machine and went back in time to Germany prior to the Nazis losing the war and asked any common citizen under the nazis how they felt about Hitler and his leadership of the country . They would have said he's doing great for Germany. But today we all see the results of the atrocities committed outside of the public view. If you were a common citizen you didn't see the brutal violence and atrocities committed in both the case of the Empire or Nazi Germany prior to the end of the war. Which note it's fairly obvious where the Inspiration for the Empire came from. So the Sith as rulers wouldn't have been as bad for the average civilian. The Jedi never wanted to rule but ended up being involved in politics towards the end of their Order's existance. And because of their political position the members who weren't perfect individuals pulled the right strings to get themselves into the officer corpse of the GAR even though the Clone Commanders where far more qualified to lead their brothers than any of the Jedi were. The Order did become corrupt due to their involvement in politics not by any dark side influance or anything of that sorts but by being in the presences of corrupt people and having to walk in that world. Was the entire order corrupt ? No . Individuals within the Order became corrupted over time. Starting with the lose of their ability to see what was truly going on with the force. That started their decline. So many of them started to get more into politics which well power corrupts , absolute power corrupts absolutely. You can't really stay pure in the force and be involved in the politics of the Republic. Count Dooku figured this out and it was part of why he left the Jedi Order. He became disillusioned with the Order and the Galactic Republic over time. Due to his belief that they were corrupt and ineffective, ultimately leading him to seek greater power by aligning himself with the Sith Lord Darth Sidious, who manipulated his discontent and offered him a path to change the galaxy through the dark side. Count Dooku wasn't too fair gone he was manipulated into doing what he did. He believed he was doing what he did for the greater good of the galaxy and the force as a whole. However Anakin executed him without any form of trial after he was disarmed. Which btw is a war crime. As is pretty much everything else the Jedi did during the war. The source of Dooku's disillusionment with the Order came from him becoming increasingly frustrated with the Jedi Order's perceived inaction against the growing corruption within the Republic Senate. Dooku saw what was coming to an extent and raised his concerns and was basically ignored so he left then he was found by Sidious who used the Jedi's feelings to make him a pawn. Yet the Jedi Order wasn't smart enough or perceptive enough to realize this was happening even though they knew full well the Senate was becoming increasingly corrupt. That is really their biggest flaw. Their lack of perception of what was going on around them. By the time they finally opened their eyes and saw the truth of the situation it was already too late .
Centralization doesn’t seem like the issue. Granted, they pulled out of other regions of the galaxy making people forget what the Jedi really are like. Honestly though, Order 66 wasn’t effective because most of the Jedi were in one well known location, it was because most of the actual fighters were killed in the war or scattered and surrounded by Clones. If Anakin wasn’t leading the attack on the Temple, perhaps more than the handful of Jedi that did escape would have survived. Someone with Anakin’s knowledge of the Temple and strength in the Force and combat skills would be quite useful for that siege. I really don’t think it’s ever a good idea to use the Nazis to try and justify the Empire. Yes, we understand and are sympathetic as to why people would support such regimes. They weren’t living in the best of times. However, of course people are going to remember both more for the Holocaust, the destruction of Alderaan, and other atrocities. These are state-sponsored massacres on unimaginable scales on innocent people. Why does a strong, centralized government have to commit atrocities? Where does it say a centralized government must always be a dictatorship? Let’s not forget both the Nazis and the Empire also invaded plenty of nations/people. The Nazis at least wanted to rule all of Europe and the Empire wanted the whole galaxy. For every time they tried to negotiate, there were always far more times they resorted to force and wiped out the old order and local culture. So what exactly were the Jedi supposed to do about the Senate before Episode 1? March in and arrest every corrupt senator, people who were elected or at least are perceived to be elected? Become politicians themselves, something that would be highly distasteful to them and might set a precedent where only Jedi can be in politics? Leave the Republic, the only galactic-wide government which might then make it illegal for the Jedi to grow their ranks, not to mention make them look unpopular and become targets when Palpatine becomes chancellor? If you asked me, the Jedi were involved in politics the wrong way. They were servants bound to the government, but they had no political power. What I think they should have done is use the status of the Order to endorse and back politicians like Amidala, Organa, Mothma, and Chuchi. People listen to the opinions of the Jedi. Yes, the corporations will back their politicians harder, but the corporations will have to be careful with trying to use their power and wealth to pressure planets when there’s a better option to turn to. With all due respect, do you even have any idea what type of galaxy Dooku wanted before he ran into Palpatine? Because I don’t. In Legends, he is basically just an Imperial given his bigoted views portrayed in the Episode 3 novel. Meanwhile in Canon, he certainly believes in a strong, new order replacing the Republic. However, we have little idea about his pre-Palpatine views. The best I can think is something like in Serenno, one monarch ruling over the people. Perhaps a strong monarch given Dooku’s fascination with the Dark Side. Even if he didn’t create this system in a cruel way, all it would take is one Sith to influence an heir to the throne instead of having to manipulate thousands of politicians. Yes, we all know the Jedi Order could have done better and avoided Order 66 and the fall of the Republic. I’m seriously doubtful of thinking quitting the Republic and that the Empire was a better government are the answers though. If anything, it was the fall of the Jedi that symbolized the end of the Republic and the rise of the Empire, the death of an time of peace and democracy and the rise of war and tyranny. And the Empire no doubt sucked for non-humans just like the inequality between white people and other races. At best, the Empire resembles Cold War America if it went to the natural extreme such as crushing the Civil Rights Movement. That’s the Empire at its best. Why is it that imperfection translates to total failure in the eyes of fans? It’s always obvious that the worst flaws of the good guys are better than the total sum of the bad guys even if you take the latter’s good qualities into account. At least with the Republic and the Jedi Order, we can think of how they can do better while with the Empire and the Sith, evil is core to them. Remove the evil and you don’t have either of them.
@tristankawatsuma8962 Centuralization is how the next generation got murdered. They should have set up various bases around the galaxy so that if one was attacked the others would have time to either deal with it or vanish inside the underground saving the order to fight another day. But they made it centralized to the point that Sidious only had to send Vader to one place to murder the future Jedi. And end the order effectively as an opposition force. It would have taken much longer to take our multiple places and allowed more to escape instead of just 15 out of around 10,000 Jedi. That's a massacre. That could have been prevented or lessened by not having everyone in a central location except those on the front lines.
If the "darkside" should not exist, then way did the son existed. The force "gods" of the father, the daughter, and the son existed until anakin killed them. The son clearly represented the "darkside" of the force. Yes the jedi should have never trained a child was literally created by the force as a response to plagues and sideus messaging with it. it's not like Palpatine would ever found out about anakin and turn him easier. Expesily given anakin couldn't be given back to his slave mother without literally being guilt of sending a child back into slavery or sending anakin to a orphanage.
Special thanks to these commenters, They were instrumental in the production of this video:
It's also important to note that this script was WRITTEN (not edited) before the Acolyte came out, just to dispel any confusion about why we didn't address the show's criticisms of the Jedi, which were prominent.
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Thank you all for your comments in that post a few months back!
Hopefully, this won't turn into a purge list once Pong Krell becomes Emperor.
I am sorry‥ but I am afraid that this black and white so-discernment view of the force game is rigged from the start… in other words, your view this presentation that is discussed, sees The Force as too far 1-Dimension black and white. 👎
If that kind of black and white pulp-fic view-based judgement is that easy, then why The Jedi would easily see all those follies of making these kind of decisions that a dark-sider would have make that will surely will lead The Jedi only to some sort of a dark-sided disaster that only lead The Jedi 3 time to there own Jedi purge, such example as The first Jedi Purge, throughout the Star Wars′ history?
@@TheGoldenWildcat What do you mean?
Idk how to tell you this, but it's defense not defence
Regard Gray Jedi argument. Grey Jedi are most of all Jedi! All Light Sith were heretics, who despite practicing art of Dark Side, come to same conclusion as Jedi. What actually make them not a Dark Side users anymore. Generally term Gray Jedi refereed to three categories:
1) Members of Jedi Order, who disagree with the council. But still fallow they commands. Example of that was Qui Gon Jin. And it is worth to remind that it was because he was Padawan of Dooku. But despite that he stay loyal to the Jedi Order.
2) Ex-Jedi who refused to abandon using The Force. Jedi Order didn't like them, but until they didn't do anything suspicious, they couldn't really do much with that. Example of this type was Ashoka Tano.
3) Jedi who know some Dark Side techniques. Sometimes it happen that Jedi learn how to do that. They typically refuse to use them, until absolutely nesesery. But they still could. Examples: Mace Windu and Luke Skywalker.
4) Gray Paladins. Were not real Gray Jedi, but ancient group of Jedi Warriors operating more as mercenaries. For example using the blasters.
Anyway. The crime of the Jedi during movie era, was that they condemn Jedi Sentinels and many of them confused fallowing rules of the Order, with fallowing will of the Force. Real Jedi Sentinels like Mitra Surik, use powers what were in a way close to Dark Side. They for example could track Force users with limited use of Force Drain. Jedi Healers commonly were also doing that, transferring life-force. Jedi didn't understand or trust them, as such most Sentinels were delegated to Agricultural duties. Han Solo, who was extremely powerful in use of Force Sense, but he was straight ignored by the Order (yes, he was Jedi Sentinel). It is why Jedi Temple Guards could not detect Sith who infiltrated them. Anyway, there is a reason why most Jedi who survived were Sentinels or Gray Jedi. Obi Wan despite being born Guardian, also start questioning rules of the Jedi what saved his life. For example Grevious was extremely vulnerable to the Force. Yet he slain many Jedi, because they in hubris challenged him on the sword fight. At one point Obi Wan start simply using Force Push and blasters against him and so he did win.
Dislike all the bots. Report em for spam. Together, we can win the bot wars
Hey, I'm all for droid rights buuuuuut
@@geetslys, the bots ain't droids - Droids have sentience.
For the republic!
Something a bot would say...
Begun, the bot wars has.
“The attempt on my life has left me scarred, and deformed.”
“But I assure you, my resolve has never been stronger!”
@@Enterprise-D666
"The Republic will be reorganized into the FIRST *GALACTIC EMPIRE!* "
Ok, but where's the lie? lol
@@goodenoughright5433It’s from a twisted point of view
Kreia stares in disgust at your video.
Influence Lose: Kreia
Light Side Points Gained.
I see this as an absolute win
Good
In the galactic criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups: the galactic police and investigators who find crime, and the attorneys and senators who prosecute the offenders. These are their stories…BUM BUM!
Mariska Hagartay? She's Jayne Mansfield's daughter, and Jayne? She was a proud member of the Church of Satan and paramour to High Priest Anton Szandor LaVey
Ok, now that's funny right there 😂
I still think the Jedi should've allowed romantic attachments, yes Anakin's love for Padme was inherently unhealthy but I still think having a skilled couples counselor on site would have fixed it, also just generally having therapists on site
Also speaking of falling to the dark side, wouldn't kicking someone out of the Order for getting married or encouraging them to leave increase the risk of falling to the dark side? Like all they've ever known is the Order and suddenly that's gone and with it all the alleged supports the Jedi have, wouldn't it make more sense to have Jedi in romantic relationships stay in the Order so they could be coached on how to handle them instead of being thrown out to the wolves?
@@m310grassnot sure how many have actually been kicked out specifically due to their relationships. I think it’s typically treated as more of a taboo, or a practice of detachment, and so they advise against close relationships. It is, however, unavoidable, because attachment comes anyway, even to the most devout of Jedi(evidenced fully in one line: “you were my brother, Anakin!”)
Luke's New Order did allow families but it certainly had its own share of problems that went along with that. As well as it's own fair number of fallen Jedi and Sith Lords.
Wouldn’t help from the fact that he’s afraid of losing her and he’s willing to do anything to save her
The reason it was unhealthy is because Anakin didn't know what he was doing and had to figure all of this out himself. That plus the stress of wartime, feeling like his own family doesn't trust him, and grooming from Palpatine and yeah.
I disagree with the attachment issue significantly because of Luke Skywalker, his Order while flawed like any order in Jedi history proved it was still possible to train older force sensitives to be a force for good while still being able to have families and relationships.
The Jedi forbade relationships not because relationships were a problem. They forbade it as an extra precaution against the risk of attachment. You could compare it to building a fence ten feet away from the edge of a cliff, so that if someone leaned against it and it fell, the person wouldn’t immediately fall over the edge of the cliff.
To your point, yes, relationships and love are all possible while staying firmly in the Light side. But the Jedi of Luke’s Order had to be extra cautious that their love did not become attachment.
The difference between Luke’s Jedi Order and the former Jedi Order here boils down to different approaches to the same problem. One built a fence ten feet away from the edge, the other gave everybody cliff safety training. Which option is best is ultimately up to the individual and what they think is best for themselves.
Ive never heard such a good metaphor@@GGBlaster !
Gonna use that now, instead of saying things like "there's many ways to skin a cat" or other such sayings. Most people I talk to are casual star wars fans and I don't have time to go indepth with them, nor do they care that much. But this gets the point across succinctly!
@@GGBlaster Jedi are a religious Order, they obviously need to have a Code of some sort, but as Qui-Gon said, Codes should not existence solely to govern *behaviour*. They should instead merely act as a guide or roadmap to understanding the Force. In other words, what is truly important about any rule is the *spirit* of the law, rather than the 'letter’ of the law. In some ways, never allowing the Jedi to experience these sorts of relationships merely attempts to remove any form of 'temptation’ towards attachment from their paths. Whereas, it’s more difficult, perhaps, to find a level of detachment in one’s outlook and actions while one has actual 'attachments’ in form of loved ones, but ultimately this would help Jedi achieve a truer and more lasting form of 'non-attachment’
But an even deeper problem is simply that the Prequel Jedi are never taught to handle attachments in a healthy manner. There are ways to cope with the fear of losing your loved ones, but the Jedi didn't seem to know or care about those, they simply prohibited having loved ones in the first place. In “Into The Dark" a Jedi very strongly talks about how it is almost perverse that he's expected not to outwardly mourn for long, and the driving theme of Rise of the Red Blade is that the Jedi Order never met Iskat's emotional needs. So in theory they do not actively suppress emotion. But in practice they definitely do. It's just rather than it being the Orders own doctrine it's a trap they fall into. While, yes, the Jedi as a whole do not advocate suprressing emotions, there are absolutely Jedi who interpret Jedi teachings as such.
There's a great character in a Star Wars video game, Knights of the Old Republic, named Jolee. He quit the Jedi order out of frustration with the institutional philosophies around love and attachment. In the game, he says this:
"The Jedi, with their damnable sense of over-caution, would tell you love is something to avoid. Thankfully, anyone who's even partially alive knows that's not true. Love doesn't lead to the dark side. Passion can lead to rage and fear, and can be controlled... but passion is not the same thing as love. Controlling your passions while being in love... that's what they should teach you to beware. But love itself will save you... not condemn you."
“Love causes pain, certainly. Inevitably, love is going to lead to as much sorrow and regret as it does joy. I suppose there are perfect, eternal loves out there, but I haven't seen any. How you deal with the bad part of love is what determines your character, what determines the dark side's hold over you."
@@GGBlaster I really like that way of describing the concept, but I do think you are giving the pre imperial Jedi order a bit too much credit. Attachments can be a path to the dark side, but they are also what grounds a person. someone who denies themselves any attachments is never going to be able to truly understand the needs of the galaxy, because they have emotionally segregated themselves from that galaxy. They may be at less of an individual risk of falling, but the trade off was always the entire order becoming too uninformed to do its job properly, which always enabled the sith to rise again under their noses.
a great example of this is actually Luke and vader themselves. It was anakin's attachment to his friends that motivated him to become such a successful Jedi, but it was also those same attachments that made him desperate enough to join the dark side. But far from trying to prove his father's view on attachments wrong, Luke was just as if not more invested in his emotional attachments as Anakin was, and it was that investment that saved Vader and destroyed the empire. If Luke had followed Jedi teachings around attachments, the empire would have never been defeated and the Jedi order would have been snuffed out completely.
EDIT: if it's not obvious, I just finished the last season of bad batch and I am seeing stars from all the "no brothers left behind" grass I've been smoking.
@@valdamirlebanon4508 You are right that total detachment can blind someone to the issues plaguing greater society. However, the Jedi’s detachment isn’t truly the cause of their problems and eventual fall. In fact, in a twist of irony, it was the Jedi Order’s attachment to the Senate that caused the Jedi to blindly side with the Huk and attack the Kaleesh, eventually creating General Grievous. It was that same attachment that turned peacekeepers into generals, that caused heroes to commit war crimes, and that eventually positioned every Jedi within the crosshairs of a good soldier following orders.
And to be clear, I personally disagree with total detachment from personal connections. My original point was to show how different groups or generations may approach a question/problem in different ways. And my point still stands: you can cut a hole in the fence and step through, and you’re still 8-9 feet away from the edge of the cliff. Anakin fell because he, unlike his son Luke (legends Luke), inched too close and lost his footing.
The Jedi before the Empire thought it was in their best interests - at that time, in their circumstances - to place a wide buffer zone between themselves and the Dark Side. This is akin to, say, avoiding bars if you want to go/stay sober, which for some people is a far safer option for them, as opposed to others who feel secure enough to enjoy a burger and fries without ordering any strong drinks.
I'm watching this as the News about James Earl Jones dying, RIP to a true legend, he left a mark that will outlast him
"The game was rigged from the start" Benny, Fallout New Vegas
Benny should have learned some tricks with Palpatine before he shoot the Courier at Goodsprings
@@Neoth40k Perhaps, but then we wouldn’t really have a game, would we? ;)
@@ryandunham1047 Nah, Palpatine would definitely be the kind of guy who would personally kill a mailman who had what he wanted and then kill everyone who directly helped him. It's true that Palpatine could certainly do this, while Benny wouldn't have as much skill, soo the game could still exist
@@Neoth40k Meaning Goodsprings? :(
Please keep Sunny alive!
I hope we get a video like this for Luke's New Jedi Order. This was great and reminded me why I got into the franchise. The lore.
I've always suspected that the story of Darth Vectivus might be a lie because his story doesn't make any sense. I mean, you have a guy who is for a lack of a better word, a CEO who finds the Sith. Yes, Rule of Two Sith used different identities is to blend in with the Galactic Society but they use those same identities to advance the Sith grand plan. And for Vectivus there is no sign of that. They say he died in peace surrounded by people he loved, but even then the only way for Sith to die during the rule of two era they had to kill each other. So things don't add up with Vectivus because there was only one role and one plan he could have stuck to: Sith.
"Then suddenly, you're a Sith. You didn't ask for it. You didn't want it..."
Plus it comes from Lumiya, who totally doesn’t have a vendetta against the Skywalker family, let alone the fact she is a dark sider herself.
Even if you disagree with the Jedi and even if you find them to be evil, the pragmatist in all of us has to stand with them. If for no other reason than the Rule of Two being so monumentally effective at guiding the Sith to unparalleled individual power that it threatens the entire galaxy on the reg. So we side with the Jedi just to ensure that the Jedi get to Force sensitives first.
And that final point is something that the later Fel Empire addresses. For as loyal as the Imperial Knights were to their Emperor or Empress, their ultimate loyalty was to the Force, specifically the light side, and if it became clear that their leading was slipping down a dark path they had full authority to act and intervene, thus preventing the Empire itself from slipping down a dark path.
A King's Guard that would only follow a good and righteous king. Compare that to the likes we see in A Song of Ice and Fire and I can see the appeal.
@@williamcostigan91 If the kings and kings’guard was like that Westeros would been a better place something that Jaime would have been a knight that he dream of becoming.
Yeah it clear they prefer following an emperor who on the light side because dark siders are terrible rulers.
I wish the Jedi would have taught their students a healthy way to have and maintain attachments...
Wasn’t the only Jedi that became corrupt and fell to the Sith just Anakin who had unhealthy or complex attachments?
Holy fuck it’s finally here. MONTHS in the works, MONTHS of waiting for the day. And it has arrived. Those of us who’re diehard Geetly’s fans couldn’t sleep until now.
The Jedi were a force of Good for the galaxy. I have no doubts the Galaxy would have fallen to darkness without the Jedi in it. However, while keeping a watchful eye on everything for any sign of the Sith, they became too narrow-visioned and overconfident in themselves. It was these flaws that led to the Jedi being destroyed. Yes, the Sith evolved to become beings the Jedi couldn't detect. The Jedi didn't evolve at all, sticking with the old ways and making the rules more strict and rigid. It's a shame but fact of the matter is the Jedi helped mold an enemy they couldn't see or touch...until it was too late.
Regarding the first point of how the Galaxy would be much darker without the Jedi, I made a similar comment in the original post: if the Jedi or an equivalent faction didn't exist, then there would be many more examples of ambitious Force Sensitives giving into the Dark Side - either intentionally or instinctively - for various reasons and eventually there would reach a point where several of those using the Force to gain power would reach a galactic level and the Galaxy would turn into what the New Sith Wars could have been (and likely was in areas deep in Sith territory that the Jedi couldn't reach) if the Jedi weren't present to oppose any of the significant Sith Lords.
US Presidential debate or Geetsly’s Jedi Worthiness Trial? Complex question with a very simple answer
They were written as the good guys. Therefore, they are the good guys. Even in the new material they are the good guys. That doesn't mean they are perfect. That doesn't mean they are not flawed. But they are still better than the bad guys. They can shine a light on their imperfections all day long but that doesn't change the facts. It doesn't change anything. It just makes them more human and realistic.
Yeah. And if you watch the video, it's predominantly Jedi-positive and making exactly the point you just made
You’re absolutely right! While there are a few bad apples for the Jedi and may have a flawed code, they aren’t evil. I do think that most Jedi were good people with good intentions, it’s just that reality is often more complex than black and white
And yet the bad guys were the ones that brought peace , prosparity and security to the galaxy . Ironic isn't it ? The Jedi with all that potential sit in their little fort while the galaxy was ruled by corruption within the Galactic Senate which allowed Darth Sidious to take control and nearly exterminate them. Because of their lack of perception and their lack of willingness to do anything about it until it was far too late. Their biggest flaws were lack of perception skills and their inaction when they could clearly see that the Senate was becoming more and more corrupt. This is why Count Dooku left the Order and became a pawn to the dark side.
Also like to point out that Anakin Skywalker's decapitation of Count Dooku was actually a war crime. Because Dooku was unarmed therefore no longer a combatant thus a Prisoner of War at this point. And even in Star Wars killing POWs is a war crime.
Of course when it comes to the overall Jedi Order we could add it to the laundry list of crimes and war crimes they have committed over generations and never charged for. Throughout the Clone Wars we see Jedi commit perfidy (false surrender) and torture (via invasive, painful Force interrogation) of POW's , and in the case above murder of a POW. Using children under the age of 15 is a war crime under international law and would be the same in the Star Wars universe especially under the Republic. Note Ahsoka for instance is only 14 when she first appears. And were not even going to get into the fact that the Clones themselves were 9 years old children in adult bodies.
The Republic and Jedi committed so many war crimes it wasn't funny in the Clone Wars.
So the Jedi weren't the good guys or the bad guys. They were just an order of monks basically who got involved in politics and ended up doing horrible things during the Clone Wars beyond just being terrible commanders.
The Jedi will always be the good guys it better them protecting the galaxy over a sith maniacs rule the galaxy who subjugate it people,terrorize them and even destroy planets for their pleasure and displeasure.
@@John2r1that isn’t “ironic” at all, because it just isn’t true. The Sith create the situation where there stopped being peace, when was the galaxy not secure before they started the war? And what prosperity did we see that didn’t exist under the Republic?
The Jedi’s goals aren’t and never were to rule the galaxy. They were not lawmakers, they were not politicians. If you want a theological dictatorship then you’re looking for another group.
Who promoted him to commit that war crime? The guy you’re claiming brought peace, prosperity and security to the galaxy. All of the war crimes you’re currently wanting to address are because of the group you’re defending. You seem to continually ignore that aspect of it. And clearly it is not the same in the Star Wars universe because those teenagers were LITERALLY conscripted into the military.
Your take is just awful, not only does it it isn’t even a legitimate bad faith argument. It’s just making up lore to fit what you want to be true.
They are good guys with imperfection and errors in judgement but have made efforts by trying to be the good guys
I don’t agree with the Anakin section at all. The disrespectful level of mistrust created a self fulfilling prophecy, and then they were like, “See! I told you he was bad!”
I firmly agree. The thing is if they were going to cave in to train him at all, they could not half ass it. They needed to accept that Anakin was going to have baggage that he would require extra help to overcome if he were to ever fulfill the prophecy.
I find the disrespect argument especially compelling because the result was balanced on such a knife's edge. If Anakin had just stayed in the council chambers as commanded a little longer, or just chosen not to interfere when he arrived, Mace Windu would have won.
@@RoyalFusilier That is partially why I and the OG commenter disagree with Geetlys. I find it to be overly presumptuous to say that Anakin would have fallen regardless of the Jedi trusted Anakin or not. The future is not set and stone, and even after all the factors that swayed Anakin to turn, it was still hard for him to do so. In a twisted way, the Council's lack of trust in Anakin only created a self fulfilling prophecy. So sure, they were technically right not to trust him, but that was only because they took the actions that all but handed Anakin over to Palpatine. These are mistakes that Qui Gon likely would not have made, hence why it is widely accepted that Anakin never would had fallen if Qui Gon was the one to train him.
Jedi Bashing became popular among Star Wars fans with the release of The Clone Wars' fifth season, particularly the "Ahsoka on Trial" arc. Dave Filoni intentionally portrayed Jedi characters as rigid, establishment figures to elevate his own creation, Ahsoka Tano, as a brave and rebellious maverick. Before The Clone Wars TV series, the original Star Wars: Republic comic stories had depicted Jedi as fully fleshed-out, complex characters who were compelling and interesting. Filoni's approach shifted the narrative, arguably undermining this earlier, more nuanced storytelling.
Eh, KOTOR 1 and 2 also hit on how rigid rhe Jedi Order has been and that was close to 10 years before Clone Wars.
The Jedi have their flaws. But the Jedi way doesn't. That is an important distinction.
@@jefferybrown6473KOTOR 1 and 2 is up for interpretation unlike Filoni’s TCW. That’s just the popular narrative and interpretations of KOTOR. Ultimately, we see the Jedi were on to something and it wasnt just rigidness. People just choose to remove the nuance in favor of their side
@@based4560I still side with the Jedi yes individual Jedis can be flaw but there way of life isn’t wrong.
Filoni is a fraud. He doesn't deserve to lead Star Wars
Wow names the agriculture core but not the healing core or education core also there was raising other younglings and all kinds of stuff a padawan could do I personally would have became a librarian assistant in the temple library
he did name both of those too.
I think 'Attachment' should be swapped for 'Possessiveness' so people have a better idea of what the Jedi mean. As for Romantic love, well, Revan succeeded where Jolee failed. Personally, I think the Jedi should have installed themselves as kings of the Sith race until they were ready to rule themselves again, like they had with the Pius Dea Republic (you left out how the Jedi were so paranoid they started torturing Sith until they figured out how to sever a Force Sensitive from his power, which after watching Korra, I'm at odds with.)
Their PR department being nonexistent also made things so much harder for them.
1:50:51 You don't get to alienate and disrespect someone for over thirteen years and yell 'I knew you were no good' when he turns on you. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Either they train Anakin and try to make the best of it, or reject him, and then Palpatine offers to teach him. Anakin went berserk on the Sand People because he was told to forget about his mother, who he'd last seen enslaved. If they had done more to get him on their side, I think he'd have stayed loyal. Mace Windu was always stupid. Besides, you yourself noted that if they made Anakin a master, he would have learned Palpatine was lying about Darth Plagueis. One of the things I like about TCW is his early promotion and padawan assignment, as it shows them demonstrating trust to gain his trust.
Finally somebody understands
I believe this: I agree with your verdict for the most part, but I disagree VERY heavily with the recruitment process, the teachings about the Dark Side, and the view on romance. That said, I am also biased towards Luke's take on the order, so I might be untrustworthy for a non-biased reason for why, and thus recommend seeing Stupendouswave's videos on Luke's order as well as videos on this topic by EckhartsLadder for what Luke's order did with training, recruitment, the attachment and Dark Side views, etc. As they can explain it FAR better than I ever can. If you want, I can post specific links to specific videos for clarification.
i think even Luke admits his order is incredibly risky. And that the younger you can start the better, so many members of his were older because he basically had no alternative.
Attachment wise his order also consistently has rather serious problems. Yes some of them were repaired, but so many fell or nearly fell that it blows the prequels order out of the water in proportion of lost jedi.
@@firstnamelastname9237 Was this Legends or Canon?
@@firstnamelastname9237 Also, how would you deal with attachments in Star Wars as a Force Sensitive, IF you were NOT trained?
@@ryandunham1047 Ah sorry most of my comments pertain to legends unless I specify 'disney' or 'original films'.
With insane difficulty most likely. That said, an important thing to note is that IRL I was brought up with two very important things in mind: One was that, of course, everyone dies. Eventually they will be lost, and when that happens it will hurt, but it also needs to be accepted. It does neither of us good to grieve until I also die, or to act rashly because of it.
The other was just as important if not more, that I should never do evil for a loved one. Whether it's to save them, or because they ask for it. So while I don't have jedi training specifically, I do have the two most important aspects of attachments in great importance. And am quite dedicated to sticking to it. Emotionally I'd be freaking devastated if certain people died, but it would likely remain only emotionally and temporarily. It has to be treated not just as a habit, but as a duty.
Now that being said, if I were force sensitive, but not appropriately trained (just as I am now, but with the ability to *use* the force not just have it) I'd likely have to give up using the force for awhile unless I could get into a calming meditation. Because the pain would be too much to risk it. Jedi get a lot of help with that regardless, calming meditations I think are in all versions. And the force itself being an active presence would likely provide a very considerable relief emotionally as I could really feel like they simply returned to it, as I would too one day (just...as long as I'm patient).
@@firstnamelastname9237 The problem is the VAST majority of us don't have said patience, or can't really afford it sometimes. I unfortunately have a near hair trigger temper, had one for almost my whole life. I wouldn't be able to deal with losing something near so healthily. And with the fact that it seems the Force in Star Wars is emotion powered, that makes me fall to the dark, even if I have no malice in it. :( It just seems like Force Sensitivity essentially makes people CONSTANTLY walking on a razor's edge. That does NOT sound like ANY way to even remotely live, at least in my opinion. Hell, can we even verifiably say they are happy with their lifestyle?
Here's my verdict: the New Jedi Order (from Legends) did a much better job. Because they either saw the mistakes made by the old Order or didn't know about it. They did a better job at making sure that they weren't tied to one single government and went out into the galaxy and helped planets, even if they weren't part of the Republic.
oh geez i disagree with alot in the emotions section. specififcally with that of anakin. for one: his relationship requiring secrecy to begin with, pitted that relationship against the jedi from the onset. to say its a good example is a bad faith argument disregarding crucial context.
As flawed as the Jedi are, they are still a force for good. I think a lot of people lost sight of that as time went on.
I know‥ It is just they are that so of a force for good, only as a 1-dimensional-minded sense of perspective, that in strong opinion at the least, if not straight-out “in no shadow of a doubt whatsoever”, that no sort of true spiritual-based faith faction worth their weight in salt, that supposedly to understand all-universal balance should not perceive reality as in that kind of either manner or fashion.
Flaws don’t make you wrong or evil. They make you human. The Jedi strove for a higher way of life, and I think we looked at them stumbling along the way and cynically looked at it as hypocrisy. I suppose that, with all our flaws, we might have become jealous of those who decided to not let their flaws define them.
You said Yoda said to mourn the dead when he said, “ Mourn them do not. Miss them do not.”
Objection…Star Trek: The “New” Generation?!
At least the subtitles got it correct
35:30
"Pity the Jedi did not slay the Sith when they had the chance."
"Pity? It was pity that stayed their hands."
Well done
The idea of the Jedi being the Real villains started out, at least I thought, as a joke. Kind of like, Die Hard is a Christmas movie! It's a joke, a troll, a lark, a prank... But not everyone seemed to have understood that.. Jedi are good, despite their many flaws. The Sith are evil, despite their relatability. We live in a Very messed up time when it has to be explained Why God is good and the Devil is evil...
Unfortunately, that is the reality we live in nowadays. Where jokes used to be treated as jokes or satire became a distorted reality for most people.
I wonder if the same thing happened with the Darth Jar Jar conspiracy theory
Part of the problem here I think is that there is appeal to that theory, the way jedi portrayed in the movies is just not expansive enough. I imagine same thing would happen to W40K if/when it comes to that medium, there is just no real way of explaining why bad things has to happen to innocents in a short time of a movie. Clone wars animated series were good exactly because they dived much more into mundane horrors of life in SWU.
Never thought I'd live to see a jedi order Audit
I still think they should've at least trained any older force sensitives to at least learn to control their powers enough to prevent them from accidentally affecting people's minds, etc. Seeing as how it's apparently X-Men level nonsense if you don't teach them how to control it.
Absolutely that makes sense exactly
I think the only war the Jedi were actually responsible for was the Jedi civil war, if the Jedi had been there to support Revan’s followers during the mandalorian wars, been there to guide the young knights, they may have not fallen to the dark side and the Jedi civil way may not have happened
That one was a tricky one because at that time, the Jedi did stand by their principles that they were not meant to be war lords. Essentially, the Clone Wars is what happens when the Jedi do get involved, the Mandalorian Wars is what happens when they don't.
It wasn’t really a singular Sith who did all that damage, it was 850 or so years worth of other Sith Lords schemes, plus him teaming with Dooku, Maul, and Anakin. Yeah Palpatine was super smart but he made a lot of errors that in any other Era in the SW timeline, would’ve got him wiped. Hell he was an Apprentice during the beginning of the Phantom menace, Plaguies helped him set up everything he ever did as a Sith directly or indirectly
Definitely that's a great story so far though
Are you okay?
THANK YOU SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTANDS AHSOKAS TRIAL
All this not to mention that the New Jedi Order, under the initial leadership of Luke Skywalker, as well as later in the Legacy Era, solved a great deal of the flaws the Order had as a whole, to the point where marriage and romantic love ended up working out, finally proving that, if dealt with correctly, it was not only possible to have romantic love while remaining disciplined, but that, as Jolee Bindo said thousands of years earlier, "Love will save you, not condemn you."
The New Jedi Order also got into some fairly consistent conflicts with the New Republic, and later the Galactic Federation, to the point of eventually outright aligning with the Corellian Rebels and the Mandalorians during the Second Galactic Civil War. Then, during and after the Aboleth Crisis, the New Jedi Order not only admitted to wrongdoing when accused of it rightfully and repented, they ended up committing a coup against the Federation government led by Daala (who was a bad person to elect in the first place, but I digress), somewhat echoing the Pius Dea coup thousands of years earlier. And finally, though we don't have much in the way of official details due to the Disney Acquisition, we know that the Federation and the New Empire, led by Emperor Ronin Fel and Jaina Fel Solo, eventually had some sort of falling out which led to the displacement of the Federation as the dominant galactic power, which then ruled until the Legacy Era. Due to the corruption within the Federation, the personal character and integrity of Ronin Fel, and his marriage to Jaina, we can easily infer that the Fel Empire must have gained at least partial, if not full support from the New Jedi Order, both because of the Fel Empire's victory (let's face it, it _would_ have been at least a short war, though it probably would've taken a few years) and the splintering of the New Jedi Order into Luke's Jedi Order on Ossus and Jaina's Imperial Knights under the Fel Dynasty. Which lead to a protracted era of peace and rebuilding, as well as the New Jedi Order finally splitting away completely from government involvement and retreating to Ossus to remain as peacekeepers and humanitarian aid workers.
It would've been interesting to see how the New Jedi Order evolved throughout the Legacy Era, after having combined with the Fel Empire and Galactic Federation to become the Galactic Triumvirate post-Darth Krayt, especially in how they interacted with the Legacy Era Imperial Knights.
I’ve noticed a lot of people who tend not to like Jedi just follow popular theories, opinions and misconceptions. Some are just flat out dense and omit parts of Star Wars or situations to make the Jedi look evil or to be a contrarian.
Like on Instagram today, I saw a short about how Darth Vader isnt cold hearted because he spared Starkiller. Despite Vader training Starkiller for selfish gain and using him to unleash even more terror on the Galaxy. They conveniently left that part out
Did those people also forget the pile of wookie corpses he left on his way to Starkiller's dad?
The only reason Vader ever left Galen alive was because of his power.
Even as a boy, he was stronger than his father according to Vader. Vader sensed his power and just assumed Galen was a Jedi Master before he figured out he was actually a kid.
@@floricel_112Don’t you know wookies don’t count as people! The empire says since they can’t even speak basic, they’re clearly unintelligent! Those were just monsters, probably would have eaten the kid if vader didn’t stop them!
Destiny and free will arnt contrary the are complimentary. Destiny is the path you were always ment to take. No one can see their destiny until its obtained. Free will is just the choices we make to achieve our destiny. If one sees their Destiny too early it will also throw off their free will. Trying to avoid a thing or achieve a thing and every choice brings you closer or futher almost like struggling in quicksand.
QUESTION: You blame the Jedi for training Anakin, but wasn't it the will of the force that he be trained?
Kinda.
The main flaw of the Jedi is they got satisfied, they aren't miracle workers despite the magic but they should have always been striving to improve both their order and the galaxy whenever possible
The bad marks in my book are: 1) breaking kids from families. Yes, it's consensual by the parents, but it's just not good for the kid. That's not how you teach someone to be secure and empathetic. A lot of THAT learning comes from having a mom, dad, and siblings. 2) A focus on NO emotion rather than "emotion, yet peace". Though I'll chalk this one up to a mistranslation, since some of the Jedi Code translations phrase it this way. 3) Arguably the celibate thing. Like that's common for clerical orders in the real world, but it's also a good way to breed yourselves out of existence, since Force sensitivity seems at least partially hereditary. And it should probably be noted that for the real world, those orders were often made up of the 3rd or 4th sons - people who wouldn't HAVE the resources to support a family/kids, so ofc they're going to be encouraged to not do so. There's a cultural element, not just a religious one, which may not apply to sci fi where human culture is assumed to be more "first world", with smaller families and birth control.
Who are you to decide what is “good for kids”? Telling parents what they should do with their kids is a wild thing to suggest. And I have no idea how you drew the conclusion that someone can’t be raised in a secure and empathetic way if they’re not with their birth parents. That’s a shockingly tone deaf thing to say.
That is EXACTLY what they teach. I honestly have no idea where the idea that Jedi were taught to have no emotions even came from. You cannot name a single Jedi who doesn’t display emotion. In fact, most of the Jedi we see demonstrate an intense level of compassion that ends up being problematic.
Jedi are not “celibate.” They have sex and they drink. They aren’t supposed to be in serious long term relationships that might lead them to compromise their allegiance to the Jedi Order.
Anakin having feelings for his kother drove him further towards the darkside attachment IS a problem for force wielders
@@VArisTHE_sinnerrr To be fair, it only became a problem because the Jedi didn't really bother to help him deal with it in a healthy way and just expected him to completely detach himself of his former life, which just wasn't going to happen.
@@virgiljianu7166 honestly I don't think he should've been trained he proved their point tbh
@@rickyrobby8133 actaully yes and no. The jedi of the prequels didn’t get sex. The Tuscan reformations basically said no family’s and the jedi council harped down on this. Anything before and after the prequel era jedi did have sex. Depending on the era. The view on relationships wanted from “Ok” to “your getting exiled from the order”. The jedi are very complex and have a myriad of different types of people. All flawed and all with different opinions.
Closing Statement: ........ The Jedi are without a doubt, a Force for Good
Verdict: GUILTY
I have to disagree in the case of Ashoka's trial. Since it really was a matter of guilty until proven innocent. More importantly the Council didn't even try to investigate. Yes there ability to investigate was hampered but to not even try. To me that's tant amount to fire fighters showing up to a fire and going well were having a hard time getting to the fire hydrant so we're not going to bother with this fire. As for the Jedi Bering no responsibility for the creation of the Sith again I have to disagree. When your organization makes it there dutie to annihilate an entire civilization down to the last child you but if some survive and hate you for it it's definitely your fault.
How is that at all true? The entire arc is her escaping prison before any trial. The entire storyline is them just trying to get capture her so that there can be a trial.
There are three episodes prior to the hunt for Ashoka that was an investigation. It all ended up pointing to Ashoka. They make it very clear in the video and you still are latching on to the same problem. It happens in movies all the time too. We as the audience know more information, so it seems like the “law” isn’t doing their job. However, that’s only because we know from a 3rd person perspective that the main character isn’t guilty.
From a person in that world’s perspective she is very clearly guilty, and it would be a very well crafted conspiracy for her to not be. The only real defense would be, “but we really like Ashoka and think she’s a good person.” You don’t think people would say the same thing about Bariss Offee?
That also is absolutely NOT what happens to the Sith.
@@rickyrobby8133 My point is that the Council wasn't even willing to entertain the idea Ahsoka might be innocent nope just drum her out and then in hindsight oh well that was your test and you pass. As for the Sith so your telling me that the moment they were ordered to fight to the death the entire species became immune to incapacitation sorry don't buy it. I could incapacitate you but you want to die so death it is
@@NekoKat. I feel like you didn’t listen to what they said in this video or read what I wrote.
The Jedi weren’t deciding if she was innocent or not. That’s what the trial was for. She had escaped custody and was being brought in for the trial. Clones were killed which meant it was no longer an internal matter for the Jedi to decide on. The Republic courts were going to put her on trial.
What you’re saying would be the equivalent of a cop escaping custody on suspicion of killing people and you responding with, “well I think the police should do more investigating. I don’t see any reason why the cop should be arrested and put on trial. It should be an internal matter for the police to figure out.” It would be an absolutely insane way to view the case, and would be a very clear example of corruption. You’re not seeing it that way because you like Ashoka and you know she wasn’t guilty.
That isn’t what I said about the Sith at all. What I said was that isn’t what happened, because it isn’t. He talks about that in the video too. It’s just incorrect to claim that the Jedi did it. The Sith Lords forced all of the lower class Sith species to fight to the death against the Republic and to commit ritualistic suicide if defeat was eminent. It is entirely false that the Jedi intended to destroy their entire species.
@@rickyrobby8133 I think on this one were going to have to agree to disagree. While I will absolutely admit I do like Ashoka I still believe the council could and should have done more. It still comes down to the fact that the Sith wouldn't have given the order to fight to the death and commit mass suicide had the Jedi taken the high road at the end of the hyperspace war and just let the Sith retreat.
@@NekoKat. I do not agree to disagree. You’re just wrong. Most of what you’re saying is just not factually accurate and the rest is just a crazy interpretation. You’re choosing to ignore information that you don’t like.
What should the Council have done? Not tracked her down after she escaped custody? Ignored all the evidence presented? Denied the Republic access to put her on trial?
Again, imagine if we weren’t talking about someone you like that you know is innocent. If there was a cop in this situation there’s NO WAY you’d be saying this about them. You’re only thinking this way because you’re a fan of the character. You’re not being objective.
And that is absolutely not what it comes down to. And the fact that’s the conclusion you’d come to says everything. You either have a ridiculously biased view of the Jedi that you’re unwilling to budge on or you’re just not very knowledgeable about the lore.
Concluding that what happened was the result of the Jedi being hell bent on genocide rather than the Sith just being evil is straight up laughable.
54:01 Nope.
Hi, counselor here. These are the words describing what Anakin ultimately needs to *do*. However, a principle of counseling is to meet the patient where they are. What use is telling Anakin what he needs to do, if he’s so unready to hear those words that they effectively drive him from the counseling process?
The first thing to do is keep him engaged. Be an open listener. Listen, importantly, *without judgment* and *with* empathy. Yoda is capable of all of that. What he does instead is cut short to something he might have gone many sessions without raising with Anakin.
After listening and empathizing, Yoda could offer advice that bridges what Anakin needs to do and what he feels capable of doing. For example: just getting him to stop keeping secrets, to cough up a little more trust in Yoda and/or Obi-Wan, if not the Order overall. Or, getting some distance from his emotions and reality-testing his fears. How likely *is* the loss that he fears? The future is always in motion. Are there concrete steps he can take to prevent that loss? (Short of joining the Sith?) Yes, many.
So the job of the counselor isn’t to advise change - it’s to help motivate it. Big difference. Yoda tried to tell Anakin what to do to find relief, instead of joining him on the journey to insight as to what would provide that relief.
A point that has been made more than a few times in this video that I very much disagree with is about training Anakin Skywalker.
Saying that the Jedi Order should _never_ have trained Anakin (due to what he would become) is an absolute fallacy. Now before I continue with my point I *will* admit that Anakin’s flaws are very transparent, has been susceptible to Palpatine’s manipulation via grooming, and that his attachments did give way to him turning to the dark side. And yes, Anakin was arrogant, cocky, and very emotional. If he had been found much earlier OR took his training more seriously, he probably would’ve still be a Revan sort of individual down the road.
However, as Jolee Bindo has brought up (in this very video, and has been acknowledged for Luke & Vader vs Anakin & Padme):
“Love doesn't lead to the dark side. Passion can lead to rage and fear, and can be controlled... but passion is not the same thing as love. Controlling your passions while being in love... that's what they should teach you to beware. But love, itself, will save you... not condemn you.”
Now back to the point I was trying to make: the Jedi training Anakin wasn’t a mistake. While the Jedi Order ostensibly made the mistake of training Anakin, bear in mind that up to his fall to the dark side the Jedi Order as a whole (as well as Padme to an extent) helped mold Anakin into a good man (not a good Jedi, but a good yet flawed man, war crimes and vengeful genocide of the Tuskens aside). If the Jedi refused to train Anakin, then Palpatine would’ve been able to swoop in and took over Skywalker’s “career with great interest”. While Palpatine might be busy playing both Chancellor Palpatine and Darth Sidious, he still would give rise to a Darth Vader withOUT the compassion and love that would’ve been key to his own redemption; a Darth Vader without being inhibited by his self doubts, regrets, and other influences of Anakin to hold him back (ie no Padme, Ahsoka, the twins, etc). He would’ve eventually help destroy the Jedi Order where they stand, as well as potentially overthrow his own Master in the process.
Now, of course, that’s “best case scenario” of what _could_ happen if Palpatine trained Vader into his perfect apprentice without any spanner in the plans.
Essentially speaking: the Jedi Order would’ve either had to deal with Darth Vader sooner or later, regardless as to whether he was trained by the Jedi or not. Just as the Jedi were caught between a Rock and a Hard Place during the Clone Wars, the training of Anakin Skywalker was gonna happen (whether by the Jedi or the Sith through one way or another).
TLDR: saying the Jedi’s mistake regarding Anakin Skywalker was basically training him is FAR from a a much greater mistake had he instead been taken in by the Sith for Sith training where he would be able to reach his dark side potential much earlier and potentially bring about the destruction of the Jedi Order.
Where's the Star Trek channel? I don't see the link in the description?
www.youtube.com/@Starbase1/videos - Woops lol, thx for that, here it is
Your Ahsoka argument is wrong. How does everyone forget that the reason that the Jedi asked Ahsoka to investigate the Temple bombing was because she wasn’t there when it occurred. They already knew that it was likely an inside job. Since Ahsoka (and Anakin) was not there, they knew that she had nothing to do with it.
Even in the footage that framed her for choking the suspect that she went to interrogate, it is obvious she is not deploying a “force choke”. Even if she needed to be detained for choking the suspect, she still couldn’t have had anything to do with the bombing.
It’s just a huge plot hole that has always bothered me. Plus the footage of the interrogation, that I also mentioned.
The Jedi weren't putting her on trial, the republic was, thus the Jedi's opinion on the matter didn't matter, also yes to us the audience and possibly the Jedi it may have been obvious that Ashoka wasn't choking her, but to the republic citizens and personnel they had no idea, and they realistically couldn't have known
Another thing is that it being an inside job is exactly why it's reasonable to believe Ashoka did it, she wasn't the one who blew up the temple, that guy was, so she could have easily given him the nano things and left with Anakin for their mission, it was all set up so so incredibly well by Barris
I generally agree with most of your points and think you did a pretty solid case in defending the Jedi from many misconceptions. What I do not agree with was the Jedi lacking a choice in the Clone Wars. Especially the choice of whether to have padawans fight in the war. By all practical means they did. While it is true that Palpatine did draft the Jedi into the war, the Republic was in no position to full on turn on the Jedi if they said no. Remember, at the start of the Clone Wars there were only 1.2 million clones compared to the over 120 million battle droids utilized by the Separatists. Simply, the Republic at this time did not even have enough manpower to quell the Separatist uprisings. As such, any attempt to have the Jedi hunted down as "traitors" during the earlier years of the Clone Wars would rightfully be seen as madness by any logical politician, Palpatine's agenda be damned. In conjunction to this first point, I absolutely do believe the Jedi would have been able to refrain from padawans fighting in the war when they were unqualified to be battlefield commanders and even worse were children, and instead make clear that only knights onwards would join in the fight. Again, what is Palpatine really going to do if the Jedi make this stance? Risk fracturing the Republic even further? That would only undermine his narrative of being able to keep the galaxy together when he would essentially cause a two front war. At that point, I don't even believe Dooku deliberately holding back the Separatists would be enough to prevent them from winning the war. Like I said, agree with most of your points but I don't think you considered all the factors in relation to the Jedi's participation in the Clone Wars.
The darkside is rejection and denial. Your rejection of the Darkside is why it exists.
Xanatos was Qui-Gon's second Padawan.
If the light and dark sides aren't yin and yang then what's the point of the Brother, Sister, and the Father?
They don't represent the Light, Dark and balance, but selflessnes, selfishness and the Will of the force. You may notice that the son didn't fall to the Dark Side until he killed the Sister, as Obi-Wan pointed out.
Geetslys actually made a video about this topic
/watch?v=CmhqCo5we3Q
@@dorianwiesner4477 thank you. With how many videos iv watched iv probably seen it then and just forgot.
I think we (like some of the societies in Star Wars) have conflated the Ones of Mortis to be gods of the Force or to be incarnations of aspects of the Force. The truth is that they aren’t - they’re just extremely powerful force-wielding entities, who, as we’ve seen in the Mortis arc, are also subject to most of humanity’s own vices and virtues.
Notice that at no time does the Father use any Dark Side power. In fact, he actively warns his son, the Brother, against its temptation. The Father acts as a balancing control over his children, but the Daughter never needed much control, because she willfully submitted to her Father. The Son, on the other hand, rebelled and resented his Father’s wisdom and counsel, and required sharp correction to keep him from disrupting the delicate balance in the Force.
From what I've seen the Son exists because the dark side exists, and same with the daughter, she exists only because the light side exists, and the father is the embodiment of the force itself, much like Anakin was
calling it sidious' plan is a bit of a stretch
While the Sith Grand Plan had one definitive goal, every Dark Lord had their own vision for how to use the preparations their predecessors set in place. Darth Tenebrous for example wanted to make the Force and thus the Jedi obsolete by advancing technology. Plagues and Sidious had roughly the same idea, but only Sidious planned and executed the whole thing, whilst Plagues was busy with his studies.
So yeah, it was mostly Sidious' plan
@@dorianwiesner4477 sort of, Sidious was able to expedite and advance the plan while simultaneously cutting plagueis out of the picture. He wouldn't have gotten to that point without Plagueis getting him 75-80% of the way there. not to mention his shortsighted planning post clone wars. EU expands greatly on the threat that sidious had to plan for, but in canon, he just builds two INCREDIBLY ECONOMICALLY CRIPPLING deathstars, for seemingly little reason, or at the very least a vague looming threat that never manifests.
Kinda surprised that nobody mentioned that Luke prooved that forbiding attachements was wrong. O_o
He didn’t though. For one, that is one out of *so many* failures even if you assume he was attached. For 2, it’s only in the original films where you can claim it was wrong even if you call it attachment. Any expansion beyond the films and we see he either gets loopy or he admits the severe risk. And for 3. Geetsly actually *did* by pointing out luke wasn’t attached anyway.
Funny, I asked in the last video when this one was coming out and low and behold its the very next video out. LOL.
Also, cool I got mentioned in the list on the video twice and in the pinned comment. My comment wasn't quoted, but still, it was nice to get the acknowledgment, although I would like to point out that like I said in my comment in the Community Post, I still think Yoda could have worded his message to Anakin a bit better in Episode 3, at least the part about missing and mouring and telling him not to at all, like you said in the video the Jedi allowed their members time to do that stuff so they could recover and move on but Yoda just said out right to not miss or mourn in that scene. Honstly, Obi-Wan is good example of what Yoda was going for done right, in terms of Qui-Gon and Satine, as he told Anain in the 2003 Clone Wars mirco-series in Chapter 21 not a day goes by that he doesn't think of Qui-Gon and look to his teachings for guidance, and in the case of Satine he mentioned in Season 7 of The Clone Wars when Bo-Katan questioned if she even meant anything to him he says she did and still does but that he can't emoitions cloud his judgement, by doing so he would betray himself and the man Satine fell in love with, so he still misses and mours Qui-Gon and Satine all the time, but he doesn't let that sadness consume him, he continues on doing his best to honor their memories and not compremiss who he is and that is why Obi-Wan is one of the best Jedi around.
Also, I still think they could have stopped Sidious, but again Sidious is a masterful planer and adaptor so there are only a few very small windows to do it in during both the led-up to the Clone Wars and during the Clone Wars themselves. Even when things don't go as planned, like with the Republic gaining the Nexus Routes in The Clone Wars or the Separatists not gaining control of the Rendili fleet in the Republic comics Sidious still finds ways to spin this to his advantage and make sure the Sith Grand Plan can still proceed. The plan might not have been perfect, as no plan truly can be, but it was as close to perfect as you can get at like 99% and Sidious being so smart managed to make sure that 1% didn't get the chance it would have had to stop him.
While I didn't agree with all of you're arguments, overall I do agree with the final verdict, the Jedi Order was flawed, sometimes in a lot of places, but overall it was a good organization that helped the Galaxy and the people very greatly, even during the stuff leading up to fall the Clone Wars they still helped where they could, at least the members that didn't become completely hyperfocused on winning the war above all else or fell to the Darkside. Also, I like your descripition of The Will of the Force and the Jedi's views on free will from 8:34-9:02.
Once again you delieverd another masterful video Geetsly. Very nice. You're videos have definitly inspired to make my own discussion videos, the few I do make, as good as I can. In a way you played a role in helping my own channel grow with the inspiration you have some videos. In fact, I met my good friend and fellow TH-camr Kking Orange in the comments of one of your Bad Batch videos three years ago, and the two of us, along with another, have joined together to do collaberative Star Wars dicussion videos, I never thought I'd be big enough to do that, so you indirectly helped me out there as well, as such I want to say thank you Geetsly for all you're great content and inspiration.
Before i actually watch this long video, my main ones are that they teach people to avoid difficult emotions instead of processing them in a healthy way, which sets their pupils up for failure, and they are more interested in maintaining stability than actually promoting justice. Anakin wouldn't have fallen to the Dark Side if he could have looked to the Jedi for guidance about Padme.
The order restarted by Meetra Surik was probably the best version. She and her pupils actually worked through their flaws instead of pretending to be above them
Where are you getting that from? Who do we ever see be told to avoid difficult emotions? That never once happens. The exact opposite happens.
The most iconic scene of the Prequels about Jedi emotions is Yoda telling Anakin that you have to accept death because it is a reality of the universe. Love the people you love, but be willing to let them go as well and live your life. That is a real life coping mechanism that people are taught to use when dealing with the death of loved ones or people who are soon to die.
It also isn’t the Jedi’s job, or place to supersede the Republic and decide the fate of all sentient beings. That was never what they were intended to be. If that’s what you wanted from them, then you wanted the Sith to rule the galaxy.
Anakin got lots of advice and had many people who tried to help him, he was lost.
More like Anakin wasn’t willing to listen at all.
@@rickyrobby8133 That may be what they say, but in practice, they tell people to avoid relationships. That is not healthy processing of emotions, that's just avoidant behavior that leaves people impoverished of fulfilling relationships. It wasn't an inherently bad thing that Anakin loved Padme or his mother, it was bad that he was expected to forgo those relationships to adhere to some ridiculous idea of detachment that no living person should have to put themselves through. Instead of teaching people to avoid relationships, they should teach Jedi how to have them but avoid falling to the Dark Side.
@@wallycola5653 your take is just absolutely ridiculous and completely devoid of any connection to the lore whatsoever. You’re making this up to fit what you want to be true, rather than what is actually in the story.
The Jedi are ABSOLUTELY NOT told they cannot have relationships. Is the Padawan-Master connection not a relationship? You think that Jedi aren’t friends with each other? What you’re saying is just wildly incorrect.
The “bad thing” is that Anakin was way too old to be trained in the first place. He should never have developed that sort of connection with his mother to begin with and then been sent to train as a Jedi. Also why are you acting like this isn’t a real thing people do. Monks, priests, nuns, and other members of religious groups have chosen to forgo romantic relationships for legitimately thousands of years. The idea no living person should be put through that is nonsense. It’s also ignoring that the vast majority of Jedi did just that. Again, you’re making up lore to fit what you want to be true, instead of talking what actually happens.
That NEVER HAPPENS. It is never once stated that Jedi are taught to avoid making connections with people.
You guys do realize that was a terrible hatchet job right? Most of your defense was essentially, "you're wrong because we said so." Overlooking most in universe explanations and criticisms. You also skated right by the Mandalorian wars. Where the Jedi council were not, in fact, correct. That's essentially the whole point of the Kotor games, and comics. At the core of it, most of your arguments are, as you stated from the start, simply an apologist's attempt to justify the order. Simple black anf white morality still shows that they were thousands of years past expiration date when they burned.
Thank you! Somebody who knows the good are the good guys 😂 surprisingly lol
idk if your best counters to a crime is "WE had no choice" youd still go to jail lol
I have to wonder if Anahkin wouldn't have just been scooped up by Palpatine anyway. At least, once he won the battle Naboo. Had he never left Tatooine, that brings a whole new variable to the mix. Including wither or not the battle of Naboo would have been won (though considering Padme managed to capture the Vicroy herself, it may have still ended in victory, just in a different way).
Personally, while I don't mind good faith criticisms, I like the Jedi enough that unreasonable bashing is less than appreciated. I live on AO3, so I respect the "Jedi Friendly" and Pro-Jedi" tags. I am not against the idea that the issue of Attachment is a messy issue in the Order, and on a whole, I don't think the Order handled Anakin right. I like fics that poke at those issues, but portray the Jedi as wanting to do better and improve.
6:41 in cannon, you are correct, but revan also exist
To most clearly see that the Jedi Order was actually a good thing as a total, one only needs to look at times and places where it wasn't and how bad the lack of it is for most places. They were the ones who ended and prevented many horrible things, despite their own failings. They had some clear errors, but in most cases they did actually make things better.
There's actually one point to consider that was just not mentioned here. In the event that a Force-sensitive person is born and no Jedi are around to affect the situation, that person is left entirely to whatever environment they have. This means in many cases Force-sensitive people could become outcasts, and in especially bad conditions they could end up just falling to the dark side even more easily than some Jedi did without anyone to teach them better. A person who becomes evil and learns to use Force abilities on their own is still quite a terrible occurrence, even if they wouldn't be as bad as a Sith. One of the things the Jedi would be responsible for reducing is the appearance of Force-sensitive murderers and thieves, a thing we never really see explored to my knowledge but one which realistically could happen.
What'll be to equivalent to Saul Goodman?
Any characters we know of?
Early Han Solo and Talon Karrade
4 armed guy from the 90s space dinner on coursancant
@@phillnyetheplaylistguy3759 dex? From dex's diner? Dexter jexter unless I'm misspelling it.
@@JediSentinal yeah dex
A good and Interesting video. Such videos help me understand Star Wars better. Thanks for your work and the community. I liked it :)
Of course you did that anyway
Honestly though, my biggest accusation for an "are they worthy" style trial would be that we get so much of the nature of the Force from their perspective. All the black and white nature of the falling and the corruption and the attachment is told from their rather dogmatic viewpoint.
Maybe certain aspects of reality aren't so corrupting if you're not a Sith or Jedi with all their wildly stringent takes.
For ALL that the Jedi are so "sure" about the nature of things, they really missed the nature of things. And not just with Sidious. They lost long before when they became beholden to a political entity rather than literally just directly following the will of the force first and foremost. Even by their own standard, they begin the movies as basically irredemably lost. I can't call that anything other than corruption, and so I can't trust their perspective on the Force. Especially when that perspective is used to absolve their actions, I can't trust what they say about the nature if the world.
Blub spotted victory achieved
Excellent 👍👍
Are you alright?
Although I would change how I phrased the first element of my comment regarding Fallen Jedi - the main times where blame could be heavily placed on those who trained the fallen would be cases such as the Mandalorian Wars/Jedi Civil Wars where Jedi Masters like Vrook and Atris actively refused to perform self reflection and if their actions had any impact on the decisions of those such as the Revanchists, where the issue arguably lies with their personality or other individual flaws - I still stand by the core of my comment on the post of how the Star Wars Galaxy would be a much darker place without the Jedi (thanks for the thanks in the pinned comment): Without a Galaxy scale organisation to provide a way to monitor and train Force Sensitives, it would be much more likely for there to be cases of Force Users to use their abilities for various forms of selfish means, especially in regions largely unaffected by early Galactic society (if we assume this scenario is a removal of the Jedi Order's predecessor and the Tho Yor ships) and eventually those using the Dark Side to gain power over others would start doing so beyond their homeworld and onto a Galactic stage at which point the Galaxy could have turned into a form of the New Sith Wars if the Jedi had not present to fight the various Sith Lords of the era. It's possible that this could be nihilistic as the Jedi aren't the only Light Side aligned Force based faction (in the same way the Sith aren't the only Dark Side aligned one) and therefore an equivalent group may have risen under different circumstances, it's possible that such a group may have only risen or been able to become powerful enough to make positive change on a Galactic scale in response to such Dark Side threats unlike in both versions of the Timeline where the Sith as an order emerged due to the fall of several Jedi which likely took active decisions to ignore warnings or forbidden aspects of the Force unlike some later Sith (fallen Jedi or otherwise) who were blind to their own steps towards the Dark Side until there was no escape from its grasp.
Meanwhile there are multiple stretches of several centuries worth of (seemingly) peace on a Galactic scale in Legends which were likely in part thanks to the Jedi and several instances like the Great Hyperspace War or the Great Galactic War where they were among the Republic's first line of defence (with instances like the Great Galactic War's Battle of Bothawui ending in a Republic victory primarily being the result of Jedi taking action while the Old Republic itself was still in crisis mode debating on what to do about the Sith). Along with this, there are examples of how much of an impact that even lone and nomadic Jedi could have, such as how quickly Meetra Surik was able to defeat the Sith Triumvirate once she returned to Republic Space, along with the references made regarding the Jedi that joined Obi Wan's mission in issue 53 of Star Wars Republic.
Without the jedi there would be no sith. So to say they instead saved many lives is odd. If you cause a problem and then attempt to mitigate the damage you still caused the problem.
Yes and no. The Sith are break away from the Jedi but their very nature has showcased that the Sith or an organization like it would come to exist anyways. And as time has proven, the Sith’s conflict is not just towards the Jedi so even if the Jedi were wiped out, they still wouldn’t stop the violence they inflict.
Geetsly is pretty much where I prefer to come when I want more accurate lore. So happy to get this video.
Edit: near the end. Yup. This video is exactly as good as expected. Love the videos!
While I agree with some arguments, like during the Mandalorian Wars, when they refused to help the Republic because the true threat hadn't shown itself, or with what happened with Meetra Surik, or the Ahsoka Tano trial, I would still defend the Order. I always believed the idea about when a Jedi falls to the Dark Side, it's not the failing of the teachings, it's the individual for not thinking ahead about possible consequences. Main reason of why I prefer the New Jedi Order after Luke Skywalker reformed. Mainly because in my opinion, it shows attachments, while can be risky, can be worth it, if you control your passions and such. Also, I agree the story of Darth Vectivus was possibly a lie. Also, a lot of people say the Jedi helps the Republic massacre the Sith after the Great Hyperspace War, the truth being the Sith refused to surrender because they were ordered to, and any who did were simply cut off from the Force, not executed. While I agree with some arguments, I still agree Anakin Skywalker is a good example of what happens when someone refuses to listen to words of wisdom. Also, I believed that even if the Clone Wars never happened, Anakin would have become a Sith anyway. Hence why I agree that while Jedi aren't perfect, their way is preferred over Sith. Plus, I always figured if the Jedi were given the choice to fight in the Clone Wars instead of being forced to, a lot of them would have refused. Which is why that while I understand why some people hate Jedi and some reasons being justified, the Republic had become a rotting corpse of itself by the Prequels and since the Order wasn't allowed to be seperate, it only made the fall of both inevitable. In the end, while I do like both, I would prefer to be a Jedi over a Sith.
Everyone sad news Darth Vader voice James Earl Jones just pass away today😢
I think the criticisms were pretty reasonable, and I thought Geetsly's refutations of them were valid and I overall agree with the sentiment!
I love the people who simultaneously say that the Jedi are the problem for training resultant Sith Lords, but then also criticise the Jedi for then unaliving their enemies.
They TRIED the way of peace, they tried teaching them the correct way. They didn’t want to know.
The Sith have proven that if left to their own devices, they threaten the entire galaxy on several occasions, even if there's just two.
Ultimately it comes down to strength of character who are fitting to be a Jedi.
Every Jedi are definitely They have to follow their own paths
Eh. Luke’s Jedi order still better. Very balanced and life loving.
Yet it got destroyed
*Be a Jedi;
*life is sacred to you and your order;
*go to a "lawless" planet;
*buy a child slave (great idea);
*do not buy or free the MOTHER of the child slave;
*Mother is brutally murdered later;
*child grows up and becomes evil;
*Jedi: omg how could this happen??
I love Qui gon jinn, but that plan was bad man...
(I haven't watched the whole video yet so if anything happens I'll edit it later)
1:57:57 If Anikan was granted the rank of Master, and aloud to check the off limits archives, he could've fact checked Palpatine's story and realized that there was no such sith the Jedi knew of, or technique the jedi knew of for Immortality. He then would've groan suspicious of Palpatine and would've probably arrested, or at least confronted him about being the sith Lord.
The Jedi not being transparent or teaching their members about the darkisde, its techniques, and the issues that come with them is a major flaw and a reason they fell. They also did a very, very poor job of explaining emotions to their members, why their there, and how to use them. Just meditating and letting them pass is a horrible idea. In episode 2, Anikan's flirting with padme was very cheesy and bad because he didn't know what love is or how to express it. He was never taught.
also, you should do another episode like this, but have it be a collab with Alan from Generation Tech and have him be the prosecutor.
love your videos
53:36 he literally said "miss them do not" and you're really tryna argue that the jedi were okay with people taking their time to mourne?
He then says "train YOURSELF to let go" translating to "you're on your own"
I think the main issue with that is the way Yoda communicates the point to Anakin. The idea behind it makes sense, even though one of the main roles of a Jedi is to defend life, there will be times where (whether due to factors such as illness, random acts that couldn't be predicted or simply old age) nothing more can be done and it's best to just work through the grieving process which is what some may have argued as being Yoda's intention if the scene was less heavy handed with the dialogue. It's even possible that if a Jedi with a more traditional history within the Order may have taken his advice on board as it was if they were in a similar situation as Sharad Hett (having chosen to meet their family only to later discover they had died after getting to know them) and were seeking guidance. However, what Anakin needed at that point was to a: look at the situation rationally (like Padme does in the Novelisation) and b: be told that visions as vague as his (assuming that in an extended version of the sequence he would describe them as much as possible without giving away his secret) have often become self fulfilling when the one receiving them hyper fixates on trying to avoid the outcome.
AJAB
As for the Jedi with no attachment rule is understandable looking at Anakin situation I do agree he should leave the order to raise his family but I also say he has potential to be a great Jedi looking at his son journey he just had to be more open to Obi Wan or change himself. While I say trying to save your wife is noble but it don’t fit in the dark side there always a price for that type of power. Just look at god of war Norse saga Freya and Bauldr,Freya had a prophecy of her son Bauldr death so she used her magic to make him invulnerable to all things but negative side he couldn’t feel,taste or smell anything. If Anakin had that similar ability give it to Padme he may had save her from dying but he took her right to live.
1:15:00 ha lol
Very good idea of course
Okay if you're making a Star Trek channel you really should know that it's called the next generation not the new generation. I cringed pretty hard when I heard that
I disagreed so hard in the “misguided” section. He paints the Jedi as absolute helpless morons who “can’t do anything” about any fucking situation
I'm not watching this long video. All I know is the Jedi like to fight 2 or more on 1. That is not honorable.
I don't think the Jedi care too much about honour, they just wanna get the job done, why potentially sacrifice lives when they could win by working together, I think Ghost Of Sushima or however it's spelt also talked about this and I agree with the main characters point of view that honour is weak and ineffective
Um your bias definatly shows . For one the fact that the Jedi decided to become so centralized is the lech pin in their own destruction. The Only Jedi to survive Order 66 where Yoda and 14 other members of the Jedi Order most of whom survived by sheer luck. All of whom where not at the Jedi Temple at the time. It is the same old story of the generals always fighting the last war. On which note the Battle of Geonosis proved that the Jedi are horrible commanders. They honestly wouldn't have been in the position of Generals if it wasn't for political moves that put these inexperienced galactic monks in a position of military leaderships.
Second thing with regards to the Sith wars and what the outcome would have been if the Jedi had not stopped the Sith. Well you only have to look at the Galactic Empire and how it provided security , economic mobility for everyone willing to work, etc. For the average civilian who wasn't a criminal or rebel life under the Empire was generally peaceful. Then bad decisions caused a minor rebellion to grow into a major problem.
The Mandalorian makes a good case for this factor about the Sith rule of the galaxy as the Empire.
Quote " The Empire improves every system it touches,Judge by any metric: safety, prosperity, trade opportunity, peace. Compare Imperial rule to what is happening now. Look outside. Is the world more peaceful since the revolution? I see nothing but death and chaos." -- The Client from the Mandalorian episode 3.
So apparently though the polar opposite of the Jedi the Sith aren't actually hell bent on destruction. It would seem that they simply want to control the galaxy unopposed. Are the Sith cruel and evil individuals yes. But if you had a time machine and went back in time to Germany prior to the Nazis losing the war and asked any common citizen under the nazis how they felt about Hitler and his leadership of the country . They would have said he's doing great for Germany. But today we all see the results of the atrocities committed outside of the public view.
If you were a common citizen you didn't see the brutal violence and atrocities committed in both the case of the Empire or Nazi Germany prior to the end of the war. Which note it's fairly obvious where the Inspiration for the Empire came from.
So the Sith as rulers wouldn't have been as bad for the average civilian. The Jedi never wanted to rule but ended up being involved in politics towards the end of their Order's existance. And because of their political position the members who weren't perfect individuals pulled the right strings to get themselves into the officer corpse of the GAR even though the Clone Commanders where far more qualified to lead their brothers than any of the Jedi were. The Order did become corrupt due to their involvement in politics not by any dark side influance or anything of that sorts but by being in the presences of corrupt people and having to walk in that world.
Was the entire order corrupt ? No . Individuals within the Order became corrupted over time. Starting with the lose of their ability to see what was truly going on with the force. That started their decline. So many of them started to get more into politics which well power corrupts , absolute power corrupts absolutely. You can't really stay pure in the force and be involved in the politics of the Republic. Count Dooku figured this out and it was part of why he left the Jedi Order. He became disillusioned with the Order and the Galactic Republic over time. Due to his belief that they were corrupt and ineffective, ultimately leading him to seek greater power by aligning himself with the Sith Lord Darth Sidious, who manipulated his discontent and offered him a path to change the galaxy through the dark side.
Count Dooku wasn't too fair gone he was manipulated into doing what he did. He believed he was doing what he did for the greater good of the galaxy and the force as a whole. However Anakin executed him without any form of trial after he was disarmed. Which btw is a war crime. As is pretty much everything else the Jedi did during the war. The source of Dooku's disillusionment with the Order came from him becoming increasingly frustrated with the Jedi Order's perceived inaction against the growing corruption within the Republic Senate.
Dooku saw what was coming to an extent and raised his concerns and was basically ignored so he left then he was found by Sidious who used the Jedi's feelings to make him a pawn. Yet the Jedi Order wasn't smart enough or perceptive enough to realize this was happening even though they knew full well the Senate was becoming increasingly corrupt. That is really their biggest flaw. Their lack of perception of what was going on around them. By the time they finally opened their eyes and saw the truth of the situation it was already too late .
What guess so
Centralization doesn’t seem like the issue. Granted, they pulled out of other regions of the galaxy making people forget what the Jedi really are like. Honestly though, Order 66 wasn’t effective because most of the Jedi were in one well known location, it was because most of the actual fighters were killed in the war or scattered and surrounded by Clones. If Anakin wasn’t leading the attack on the Temple, perhaps more than the handful of Jedi that did escape would have survived. Someone with Anakin’s knowledge of the Temple and strength in the Force and combat skills would be quite useful for that siege.
I really don’t think it’s ever a good idea to use the Nazis to try and justify the Empire. Yes, we understand and are sympathetic as to why people would support such regimes. They weren’t living in the best of times. However, of course people are going to remember both more for the Holocaust, the destruction of Alderaan, and other atrocities. These are state-sponsored massacres on unimaginable scales on innocent people. Why does a strong, centralized government have to commit atrocities? Where does it say a centralized government must always be a dictatorship? Let’s not forget both the Nazis and the Empire also invaded plenty of nations/people. The Nazis at least wanted to rule all of Europe and the Empire wanted the whole galaxy. For every time they tried to negotiate, there were always far more times they resorted to force and wiped out the old order and local culture.
So what exactly were the Jedi supposed to do about the Senate before Episode 1? March in and arrest every corrupt senator, people who were elected or at least are perceived to be elected? Become politicians themselves, something that would be highly distasteful to them and might set a precedent where only Jedi can be in politics? Leave the Republic, the only galactic-wide government which might then make it illegal for the Jedi to grow their ranks, not to mention make them look unpopular and become targets when Palpatine becomes chancellor? If you asked me, the Jedi were involved in politics the wrong way. They were servants bound to the government, but they had no political power. What I think they should have done is use the status of the Order to endorse and back politicians like Amidala, Organa, Mothma, and Chuchi. People listen to the opinions of the Jedi. Yes, the corporations will back their politicians harder, but the corporations will have to be careful with trying to use their power and wealth to pressure planets when there’s a better option to turn to.
With all due respect, do you even have any idea what type of galaxy Dooku wanted before he ran into Palpatine? Because I don’t. In Legends, he is basically just an Imperial given his bigoted views portrayed in the Episode 3 novel. Meanwhile in Canon, he certainly believes in a strong, new order replacing the Republic. However, we have little idea about his pre-Palpatine views. The best I can think is something like in Serenno, one monarch ruling over the people. Perhaps a strong monarch given Dooku’s fascination with the Dark Side. Even if he didn’t create this system in a cruel way, all it would take is one Sith to influence an heir to the throne instead of having to manipulate thousands of politicians.
Yes, we all know the Jedi Order could have done better and avoided Order 66 and the fall of the Republic. I’m seriously doubtful of thinking quitting the Republic and that the Empire was a better government are the answers though. If anything, it was the fall of the Jedi that symbolized the end of the Republic and the rise of the Empire, the death of an time of peace and democracy and the rise of war and tyranny. And the Empire no doubt sucked for non-humans just like the inequality between white people and other races. At best, the Empire resembles Cold War America if it went to the natural extreme such as crushing the Civil Rights Movement. That’s the Empire at its best. Why is it that imperfection translates to total failure in the eyes of fans? It’s always obvious that the worst flaws of the good guys are better than the total sum of the bad guys even if you take the latter’s good qualities into account. At least with the Republic and the Jedi Order, we can think of how they can do better while with the Empire and the Sith, evil is core to them. Remove the evil and you don’t have either of them.
@tristankawatsuma8962 Centuralization is how the next generation got murdered. They should have set up various bases around the galaxy so that if one was attacked the others would have time to either deal with it or vanish inside the underground saving the order to fight another day.
But they made it centralized to the point that Sidious only had to send Vader to one place to murder the future Jedi. And end the order effectively as an opposition force. It would have taken much longer to take our multiple places and allowed more to escape instead of just 15 out of around 10,000 Jedi. That's a massacre. That could have been prevented or lessened by not having everyone in a central location except those on the front lines.
Please do a tribute to James Earl Jones.
You said The New Generation
That is unforgivable
Sentenced to order 66
Spot on then guys
It's not my fault and I'm not lying about that incident It's not my fault at all ❤
Of course he did it himself always
If the "darkside" should not exist, then way did the son existed. The force "gods" of the father, the daughter, and the son existed until anakin killed them. The son clearly represented the "darkside" of the force.
Yes the jedi should have never trained a child was literally created by the force as a response to plagues and sideus messaging with it. it's not like Palpatine would ever found out about anakin and turn him easier. Expesily given anakin couldn't be given back to his slave mother without literally being guilt of sending a child back into slavery or sending anakin to a orphanage.
Truly interesting stuff