WHY you should STOP using ZENITHAL priming on your miniatures
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 มี.ค. 2022
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I love to paint miniatures for your warhammer 40k, age of sigmar and & d&d games. How to speedpaint Taus Space Marines, Blood Angels, Salamanders, Stormcast Eternals, beastclaw raiders, 75 mm scale models and miniature busts! How to paint warhammer, how to paint D&D figures. WARHAMMER QUEST CURSED CITY. - บันเทิง
I am very much a beginner. I paint mostly 28mm 3d prints and after priming, a quick squirt with a spray can from above can really show me the detail in the model, way better than just a flat layer of primer. For me, it's more a tool to achieve just that: bringing out detail better in order to paint that further.
Yeah that’s true! No matter the volumes, you can for sure see more details on the mini! Some painters collectors will just do that on their fav sculptures because sometimes it just need to be appreciated without any color!
When I first started I would prime in black and do a spray from above to do a zenithal prime and it helps a beginner understand the fundamentals of shadows and helps hide some mistakes a beginner might make.
I often notice experienced ppl forget what it's Ike to not know something or remeber what it's Iike to not have the skills they have now.
Granted you can also just use a shiny primer, put the mini under a light and take a photo of that.
agreed with this comment :) its a great way to help beginners see detail :)
I use zenithal priming happily.
My miniatures are used for tabletop gaming, not to look pretty in a glass cabinet.
There is always a spotlight on my map/grid from above, so having a zenithal primed mini just looks like it has much more depth than one that was regularly primed.
I understand it's not for everyone, but there is definitely a happy middle ground here.
Yea sure! In the video I’m just saying it’s not as easy as it seems to get an accurate zenithal priming… but if you use it for gaming and you don’t care about light placement or whatnot it really doesn’t matter how you do it! So keep at it!!
I suppose, in fairness, it's the difference between mini painting as art and mini painting for a tabletop or gaming project. A greyscale + contrast will satisfy a lot of people who might not want to push past that level or are happy to use it for their troops. I also know (from personal experience) that trying to learn shapes, lights and volumes is really hard and so a lot of people want to try and use a shortcut because that's how we work 🤣
Yeah but greyscale most of the times its not zenithal priming
Yup. I think people are using the term zenithal highlighting very loosely. Anytime someone uses a dark base layer and lighter highlight with the main purpose of creating quick and easy gradients using transparent paints are calling it zenithal painting. Before contrast paints, washes, and inks became popular the only time I ever heard people mention zenithal highlighting was when attempting to make non-metalic metalics.
Like any technique, it will have different uses in the hands of a novice and an expert. All that matters is you like the result and you can be consistent across your army.
You are probably overthinking this. :D
Zenithal priming, even though most of the time people really use greyscale, is just a way for people to get quick results and imho this works pretty well, because what for you might be a bad paintjob is totally acceptable for them. I am working as an illustrator and have to consider stuff like light sources, volumes etc in my everyday work. When I paint my minis for gaming I just want them done as quickly as possible with the best result I can get...just having fun.
And I figured out what you said in the beginning, real zenithal priming with rattlecans is a pain in the a** and even though it can work it is pretty risky especially when working on batches. So I went to greyscaling my minis, giving them an AP speedpaint basecoat, then an oilwash and after that some quick highlights and I am done and happy. :D
So probably the wording of most videos about this is the real problem, but working with a method like this like greyscaling works totally fine imho.
Yes I agree, probably it’s just a wording issue.. and hey! I’m the queen 👸 of overthinking ahah
You make some valid points and I agree that people need to explain a bit further what actual zenithal light entails, as you said, it's more of a greyscale to help with volumes. BUT, I can't agree with you on the cans xD since it's the only thing I've used since I started in this hobby back in 2014. You can achieve a lot with a can, but like every other skill, it requires practice, practice, practice ;D
Cool vid tho
Ahah yeah maybe it’s because I really suck at spraying with a can, I almost can’t even get the primer on ahahah
I'm of the opinion that when most people say zenithal priming they actually mean a 45 degree downward angle in a halo. Using a turntable makes it 'super easy, barely an inconvenience.' Yeah it takes a certain deftness of touch with a rattle can. The aim of the spray is an inch or so about the figure.
I'm not a fan of the whole schmeep...but I'm not much of a painter, and don't much aim to be.
(Zenithal is often mistaken for directly from about. People usually mean "lit like standing in the sun at it's zenith."
Yes they do, maybe I’m being an a**hole about the words but I think it’s important!!
@@ataraxiapainting It is important. Words being used incorrectly that have yet to mutate to what people mean ... frustrating
What books would you recommend to expand more on volumes/lightening? Outstanding video as usual, thank you very much for this content!
Totally onboard with making a greyscale in the priming step, and talking of volumes and where light is going to be more intense and less intense. I sometimes tend to call that "zenithal" which, of course is wrong. As a wargaming painter, I tend to say "prime grey and dust white form a higher angle" If using contrast paints. But it depends if your aiming for a single miniature or an army. :)
Yea maybe I’m being picky with how we use words ahah but language is important!!
I'm a beginner who came back to the hobby after 16/17 years so reeeeeeally appreciate this. I was watching tutorials and then saw (and attempted) to apply what I see now are incomplete/bad descriptions of this kinda highlighting.
I still like what I got but isn't what I envisioned and now i have a better understanding of why. So thank you!
Ahah it’s nice to hear this! I mostly got disagreeing comments on this video 😂 still I think that under painting is plenty useful especially (or maybe only) if you are using contrast paints.. but again those cans… 😂
I only figured this out recently I always wondered why my minis were so dark and never seemed to pop as much as they should - then I stopped a black to white zenithal and stuck to grey to white, as in the model is almost totally primed in white - now they look much better. I agree for beginners perhaps stick to a white or light grey primer and the finished product will look much better !
after reading some of the comments and listening most of the video. what you'd suggest for me who does gray undertone on black primer in order get some highlight from underneath fast. as I do not like doing edge highlighting.
I am very much beginner I haven't gone to any art education. I got airbrush in order to make it easier for me to paint. so far it has been easier. before airbrush I did same effect after painting base colors by drybrushing 2-3 lighter colors to bring some volumes. now there's thing called Slapchop that uses what I understand as zenithal priming.
I love what you said about a painter being intentional with lighting 👍 I love painting and creating things and telling stories with my work and I don't need a can telling me where to put my paint 👍😁
Yaaahh!! Although we need to start somewhere no?? We can start from reality or do whatever we please!!
I never use white or black paint for anything but the lightest highlights or the darkest shadows.
I zenithal highlight with brown and gray. It speeds up the painting process for me because I just want playing pieces, not show pieces ✌
Is it just me, or has miniatures paint become more and more translucent the last few years?
Do you have that "quick tips to studying volume" video mentioned at 4:43? I don't see it on your page.
When I started in the hobby like 3 years ago I was zenithal priming/underpainting since the start and I honestly found it incredibly simple to do with spray cans then I just used glazes, contrast paints and Edge highlights to get amazing results. Sure I consider it kinda cheating but fuck it if it looks good then it looks good lol. It's simple and stupidly easy to get a high standard for beginners whilst your still learning about placements of light values.
Yeah what you are talking about it’s more an underpainting because like I said in the video it’s not easy to zenithal prime the correct way! But man, to each his/her own!! We all have different approaches to learning! And it’s okay
What's the best way to break out of the zenithal priming rut and really start to learn more about volumes and light interpretation? Volumetric highlights constantly vex me because I never feel confident in where I place them or how much I adjust the value of the color as I work up to them.
Look at your favorite art, especially 2d art where volumes can only be expressed through the paint or other medium.
I make my own grey scale for the initial setup of figuring out how I'm going to paint the mini, purely for taking pictures and using a drawing app on my phone. I prime in black and use a light to see the reflections and take an image from the perspective I like, and again on the exact opposite side of the mini. Then I do Zenithal using a Dark grey at 30 degrees all around the model, a lighter grey at 60 degrees, then white at 90 degrees/top down to the model, and take more pictures. Also even though Zenithal is by definition from directly above, by creating a gray scale like I do I can shift the focus of the light away from directly over the top and still get really good light values with a very different feel. Just the way I do it and feel that it makes zenithal more viable as a tool when planning and prepping to decide the values prior to painting, keep up the good work!
Yeah your process is pretty advanced!! I think it’s very smart what you are doing!!
Thanks bro I will keep it up!! Thanks!!!
I've been doing an ambient zenithal of dark grey over black then highlighting up to white through light grey with a dry brush. Complete control over my volumes. White over black seems very clumsy.
I'd recommend brushing on the "zenithal". Do a broad directional light drybrush with a darker grey then detail light grey where environment light is hitting directly then pure white where something is actually glowing. It takes a little more thought and time, but the results have much more direction and you get the chance to get familiar with the model and plan ahead.
I cannot find the corresponding video because i'm very lazy, but that thing you showed us on the pallet where you pull and twist the brush, really changed the way I paint for the best. One little trick and it unlocked a whole new level of standards on my minis. I thank you very much, you're damned amazing mate x
I personally find that zenithal with a grey base (black is very much too dark for the way I paint) and a white highlight really speeds up batch painting especially when combined with contrast paints or speed paints. But, I agree that it isn't super useful for hero figures
That’s actually a very good idea I didn’t think of ahah thanks!!!
I usually use the Black/(Grey)/White Zenithal for nothing but the purpose of priming with the effect to make details more visible, wich helps me painting more accurate afterwards.
Lights are set with the (air)brush with very bright colors in the same hues as the layers below, using clean white only for the key lights.
Thanks for expressing your thoughts on this subject. I like listening and looking through what everyone has to say on subjects. I try different things and follow what I think works best for me and my minis. I see the value of zenithal but do not like it and do not use it because I think it darkens things up too much. I like a white primer and then shade from there. That gives me a result I like but that’s just me. Ma’am you keep doing you.
For me, I've messed with zenithal priming and while it's often helpful in that it helps me discern details a bit more easily than a regular black primed model? I don't use it as a magic bullet to help me automatically get all my volumes and such figured out. Even after all this time (13 years or so painting), I'm still perfecting notions like volumes and lighting and even highlighting, so while the notion of a zenithal prime is helpful at times? I don't see it as a be all end all either.
I’m with you. I zenithalled everything and would just lose all my volumes under all the base layer, highlights and edge highlighting. I never learned anything.
I saw this video because I was looking into how to do this technique again. I just wanted to see what you had to say about the topic. I've been doin a black base primer, then spraying gray, and then spraying white. I dunno about calling Zenithal a "trend", I think I first heard about people doing it with their miniatures about 12 years ago? It probably just wasn't as wide spread as it is now because it seemed very niche in the painting hobby back then, but people were getting good results. I certainly can agree with you that it isn't something new painters should be doing or they might get discouraged.
What I like about zenithal is that it gives you that colour with highlights and really dark shadows like a lot of comic book art. I think its just another style to paint in.
Marking today i wanna try zenithal priming for the first time with White Scar and Chaos black. I just got the New Grimaldus and i wanna try a mix of contrast paints and whatnot. My end goal is to make a Helsreach animayion accurate grimdalus. I will probably only do this for characters, HQs and big boys like Angron. As i prefer my Mephiston Red spray and flesh tearers contrast for my deep red for my crimson templars
Zenithal priming works great for me as a base. Coming from an illustration background and later working with 3D and rendering, it just ports the way I normally think about all this stuff onto miniatures. I did however very quickly notice the "spray from above" wording to be misleading. What you want is more of a representation of an overcast day with very diffused lighting, emulating both direction and ambient occlusion. I find this is very easy to accomplish by starting to spray from above, then from a roughly 45° degree angle while rotating the model. I have also started running a thin black wash after the zenithal to get a "cavity" pass, to emulate self-shadowing in crevices and whatnot. Admittedly, I am still new to painting miniatures, but I find this works very well with contrast paints as the base layer, but not so much if the idea is to base coat after the fact, as it obscures most, if not all, of the shadowing anyway. Unless done in very thin layers, of course.
-Also if you wanted to be very real about realistic lighting environments, as exaggerated on tiny items, you would probably want a faint spray from directly below as well, emulating all the bounce light from the ground/floor. This could likely very easy overpower the established contrast however, and may not be what you want. It could however be a great excuse to spew some nice accent color on the model at the end step, as the light bouncing from below would carry the tint from it's environment/base :).
I fully understand what your saying and I’m sure as a very skilled advanced paint you see things that a novice like me can’t see yet. Thank you for this information
I think it's great to challenge this method , either way people need to try what they're doing with light colors and cool colors for shadows. Better lighting and mood could change alot of models, especially Tyranids and space marines to have a more environmental lighting to bring the chaos of battle to life
What are your thoughts about speedpaint and contrast paints?
A very valid option, if you want to get your miniatures ready quickly to play! But it would be even cooler with the right zenithal priming, with the right knowledge and an airbrush!
@@ataraxiapainting I tried using white drybrushing over black primer and then speedpaint🤗
Using a slightly diluted white ink is the only way I could get a proper greyscale zenith lighting and only after I had to use an airbrush I was afraid of using for the longest time and figuring out how to properly use trigger control. Takes practice, but in the end it turns out nice 😊.
I think you can do the same with white primer! I find that ink (especially the one I use from liquitex) is waaaay too delicate 😮💨it rubs off!
@@ataraxiapainting Yeah, I have noticed that too. I will varnish it to keep it from doing that with liquitex, but I’ve had pretty good results with using Vallejo white glaze or warcolours white ink through the airbrush. Of course as you said white paint works just as well too!
What book is that at 0:32?
Ow... so I was putting my mask wrong... lol
I always start with the top part and then I close the thingy on the neck...
i do things in very different way, I add general low light levels intially with the airbrush, but I dont use white anymore. I effectively add the colours straight away even on black... Unless im painting very light colout objects... Erm probs best to dm me if your intereseted
I would say the color is almost irrelevant if it has an higher value!! Cool approach though!!
@@ataraxiapainting em, over use of white I feel can lead to pale washed out colours... its a tricky one to explain
I just painted some used minis that were highlighted this way and honestly I find it overhyped. I'm not an expert by any means but I'm not a beginner either and while it was fun to try something new, I felt like it was honestly kinda boring to work with compared to painting a model from a simple black or white undercoat. It felt like the shadows were way too harsh as well which was kinda nice for practicing non metallic metals but when painting... Everything other than metal, it felt pretty much impossible to use.
I think that’s because it’s not that easy to apply and it also depends a lot on what you wanna achieve with this technique; study volumes? Paint in transparency? Speed paint? It depends! I still hate it btw
I’m not an expert painter, never will be. But using this technique and slapping some contrast paints over the top. Looks fuckin ace ! 😊
So, essentially because there's an extra step of grey, if you want toys to look more realistic, we can't recommend this even though with or without the extra step the results are incredibly useful?
No I’m just saying it’s not that easy to do for a beginner and there are probably many other ways to make the paint job easier!!
Yeah. I'm a bit behind the trend curve here as I don't get much time to actually hobby, and there's huge swaths of time between sessions of setting up my airbrush... That being said I tried the zenithal thing, and ran into this exact problem... Volumes all wrong. Ended up going over the rest of the squad with a solid darker color to start from and getting much better progress that way. To each their own, but if I ever need to 'zenithal' something again it won't be with just straight white blasted down over black... It'll be genuine scetching/underpainting trying to pick out volumes. I personally don't care about them new fangled contrast paints either.
I tried zenithal priming and it made basically no difference for my style of painting, admittedly I started out waaayyy before contrast paint was a thing so I paint in a more old-school way but still it just wasted a bunch of time and had little to no effect on the overall look. I use a black undercoat for 90% of what I do, and it works fine.
You make good points. Yet doing it with a can can be a starting point for beginners to grasp the concept.
I’m not really sure about that… but maybe I’m being too subjective.. because for me it never worked
@@ataraxiapainting In the end it's not about it working perfectly. Since an airbrush can be pricy and has some limitations in which spaces you can use them, a rattle can for most beginners is someting they can easily optain. For getting into the zenithal thing and working with transparent paints, it is a nice and easy starting point. It might not give you the best results in terms of a gradiant or "realistic" lighting, yet it can be a point to start and gain experience.
Your video non the less makes some good points to consider if one wants to start display painting oder get some better results with their army painting. I think its important to see, that having an easy but not optimal point to start from is better than setting the bar for the entry quite high for a beginner. Even though I think an airbrush should be in every mini painters arsenal, given he or she has the space and funds for it. These new mini compressors might change the game in that regard a little bit.
For tabletop gaming minis, rattle can zenithal highlighting is great for me
I'm not saying this is objectively correct or, looks the best, but, I like painting a bright, cartoony high contrast style so basic zenithal kinda works for me but, I'll readily admit, it's not a magic cure to fix everything
(I don't have any contrast/speed paints)
Yea I agree with that! But my point was that zenithal priming was meant to show us how volumes work… and if you look at it from that side it’s no easy to do!
But if you spray randomly and don’t care about light and volumes it’s super fine to use!! Even though I would call it more “preshading”
@@ataraxiapainting i wouldn't say don't care, more, I like very dramatic lights and darks, but yeah lighting is way more complicated than "just zenithal lol"
In my mind "xenithal priming" means to do a quick dark to white greyscale underpainting after priming first with an airbrush but finished off with a drybrush. (Look at how Don Suratos does "slap hop")
really nice obersevation, my problem as a beginner is that zentihal priming (also said in the video) is that there's to much contrast between dark and light so you really need to build up the layers. that said, i hate the layer technique used because its counter intuitive. why build everything from the ground if you already have the values?
I’m missing why it’s counter intuitive.. would you mind dumb it down for me? Ahah
don't have the space for an airbrush only have cans, I have a black, grey and white cans and they're very tough to use effectively without getting nasty speckles, but there's tricks to it like warming the bottle, keeping the end clean etc and using fast motions. I tend to mix ink and paint to use a translucent medium so some of the values show through the paint, but that's not to say I don't think about how lighting works and am not advancing my skills as an artist by going for shortcuts, I just have a somewhat rapid process.
I see dwarf I click! I'm in the middle of painting around 80 of these. and have been trying different things on each one so far, so lets see how this works without zenithally priming, but as others have stated, its not for the effect, its for the guide to help build it up i think, unless you use washes / contrast only
Guide for volumes you mean?? Clicking on dwarfs is always a wise choice ahah
I love it, zenithal, that is.
You should! If you know how to do it right!
@@ataraxiapainting yeah, you can't just blast white from straight above.
@@thejustinkates that’s what I was trying to say 😝
I do zenithal but after lunch like 2pm 45 degrees and for me its perfect xD
Kind of Great stuff friend 👏 👍
Really? Ahah 😜
You are wrong in one point: With Zenithal priming you DO get a gray-scale if you only spray for a short moment: Areas which are normal to the spray direction will be whiter than areas which are at an angle to the spray direction.
It all depends on HOW you are doing it. In my thumbnail you can see a figure I sprayed with a single pfffsss and there’s no greyscale… or not enough of it to be useful anyway!!
how about zenithal whith drybrushing ?
Roll with it if you know about volumes! Or otherwise go for an under painting instead - which I think is better tbh
If you're trying to do a bad job on purpose with all of your videos and that's like...the point of this channel.. then well done. I guess pissing everyone off is one way to get views and comments, hell it worked on me.
Uhh man that hurts! I’m doing videos about painting toy soldiers, you guys should chill a bit! And yes it works but my purpose was to express myself, not to piss people off. I love painting miniatures and I guess sometimes I get to passionate about a topic and piss people off. Sorry about that. But it’s part of the deal! If you expose yourself and your opinions you are bound to take some shit from people who don’t agree with you! That’s okay though! Thanks for your comment, I’ll try to do better next time!
That "B-b-b-b-b-ba!" at 01:37 just earned you a subscriber :'D
Ahahah so being awkward has its pros ahahah
@@ataraxiapainting I like to call it 'character' 😁
@@metalor696 aww thanks then 😍
"This pisses me off because it makes beginners get nearly as good results as I do"
In defense of zenithal priming, it makes it a lot easier to see details than a uniform prime (eyes aren't what they used to be). But 100% no substitute for practice.
Yea yea!! Even though the title is a bit extreme, I’m not really condemning zenithal priming. I’m just saying it’s not so easy to do! Randomly dusting the mini with white is easy! And it makes the details pop!
I appreciate how short this video is , as well as being so dense with explanation
Zenithal is handy, but not real. I like to do a quick black oilwash afterwards to bring back deep details that are facing upside. Those get lost during zenithal spray.
It just kinda seems like a "you can do better so dont short yourself" tone. But not everyone is painting for a display case quality. I use my minis stricty for table top and am perfectly fine with the "half assed" detailing as long as the colors still pop and bring the mini to life. This comes across as gatekeeping lol but hey im really happy youre really good at painting :P
Yea sure, why wouldn’t you do that! But like I said in the video, that’s more a preshading than an actual well thought zenithal!
Interesting perspective. Im a beginner and Im trying to learn different ways to get good shadows and contrast. I honestly thought this was click bait but I was pleasantly surprise by the way you presented this. Thanks for the video.
I think it sounds like the issue you had is that it was just black and white no grey step in between. I have always taught people to have a grey step and I would say that their understanding of values skyrockets when using Zenthial. I understand what your saying about the rattle can but I have to disagree not downvote because I think that's silly if someone articulates a well thought out argument.
My thing is this, are you the average? Are you the norm? Can your experience be thought of as the typical? I can no longer remember the typical normal starting experience I am so far from it so its hard for me, being a fossil of the hobby but that is what I would look at.
I'm glad you let us know how you feel. But I disagree that Zenithal is not good. It's great to get the concept across of highs, mids, and lows. Yes, we know it's not a 100% scientific representation of light. But it is a good platform for the new painter to build on that gives a decent output, which encourages them to as opposed to your tirade about how wrong it is. It's just a tool don't be one.❤
I feel like the negatives are avoided by simply drybrushing the zenithal in 2 stages. First grey to cover bounce light then white for where the light is actually hitting. It gives you great control. The problem is everyone sucks at drybrushing. The way I do it is I use a fat round makeup brush, rub the excess paint off on a dry pallete instead of paper towel, brush away from the light source, then add just the tiniest amount of moisture and lightly circle pattern to blend it. Instead of using grey and white, I try to match it closer to the base coat colour or lightest material like ivory cloth. Since I CBF to buy an airbrush yet I'm doing all my miniatures this way.
All good habits, and one that doesn't get talked about enough is not using bad paints. Dry brushing can feel hella wasteful so people use low pigmented chalky paints and then blame technique and not the tools.
@@gregorycafiero9688I'm about to dry brush a double table worth of terrain using the crappiest paints in the world. Chalkiness really doesn't matter when its rocks.
@@blakearius I mean for terrain, go nuts. Wasn't what I was talking about, if that's what you were my bad
@@gregorycafiero9688Nah I guess my mind just went to craft store paints since I think you'd be crazy to use on a mini for any purpose.. but I hadn't considered low quality could also mean like Citadel, only just recently tried some of their white paints and they are awful for general use.. They're certainly more usable drybrushing with them but still I get your point, should just leave them for less important work.
ok i know where you are comming from and basicly , you're right. 100%
BUT! .. If you Paint something like a Space Marine and just want some neat good looking Highlights or gradients, Zenithal Priming or rather Zenithal Painting with an Airbrush can be a really fast way to burn through and whole army of blue, yelling madman.
Yeah I agree with that!! But in order to cover all the parts of the model you need to move around with the can! Which is not as easy as it seems!!
@@ataraxiapainting yeaaah the can sucks for that. you're totally in the right.
Clicked on the video because I like learning from skilled painters.
Put the word Beginners in the title
I say it in the video! But yeah thanks, I will give this some thoughts!!!
Zenithal good for speed thats it. No deep context under it. And its easy to achieve with proper spray cans since spraycans designed for graffiti/art use have the same psi as an airbrush. The contreversity of this video is as good as a boobs thumbnail by the way, does the same effect.
Did you copy/paste this? I swear I remember replying to you ahah anyway that’s more an underpainting than a zenithal bro
I agree
Really? Ahah
Realistically, you should do whatever you want. Whatever makes you enjoy your time and feel like you accomplished something. That's a pretty cool thing, man. Maybe don't spend too much time listening to a contrarian who tells you they "hate trends" while sporting piercings, tattoos, and myriad other trendy fashion accessories. Just do what's cool for you.
I hate laziness bro and people who explain to things halfway. And btw I am very trendy. And also fabouloyse lol
@@ataraxiapainting Sure, and there are people that are somehow actually offended by the notion that someone might use a product or technique that saves time or effort to quickly achieve a nice result that looks good. I've heard them say things like it's "cheating" or "no skill" or "lazy". These are gross people. These are the types of people that I would never want to associate with because they suck the fun out everything with their constant negative attitude and berating comments about the painting of little pieces of plastic. Not everyone is interested in "progressing as a painter". It just isn't that important. A lot of folks just want to play a game with their friends and it's a bit more fun with models that are painted. If someone wants to play a game with me and they show up with minis that they painted and are proud of, it literally makes no difference what they look like or what method they used to paint them. I would never, ever, ever tell them they did something wrong or get upset that they are using a shortcut and actually have no skill. I mean, what kind of person would do something like that? Not a very good one, probably.
Pure zenithal highlighting as a base for glazing is a huge crutch and gets you into bad habits. Atomised paint behaves a hell of a lot different than light does...
...But zenithal priming does have its uses. I stopped using black as a primer years ago in favour of a dark grey primer (Vallejo Panzer Grey). With that as a base I'll give it a 45 degree zenithal with a mid-tone grey, then my final white highlights are done either by hand or with a vertical drybrush; depending on what I'm painting and why. Even then this only gives you a basic overview of your uppermost highlights.
Its a handy technique, but it only ever gives you a crude and rudimentary overview of whatever it is you're painting.
Yeah I totally agree! Even thought not sure what you mean with the difference between zenithal highlight and priming
@@ataraxiapainting Its interchangeable really. Some people call it zenithal highlighting, others call it zenithal priming. I've always gone with the latter because you're essentially just throwing a layer or two of paint on top of your primer before any real colours get involved.
Totally agree with this, I think it’s unhelpful for us to teach beginners that Zenithal priming is everything and that they should do it for every mini. It’s better and more useful for us to teach them other foundational techniques that are way more useful.
Zenithal highlighting is slightly different from zenithal priming… though I think being light and volumes a very complicated topic it should be introduced at the right time! Otherwise is confusing! I remember when I started studying volumes… it was a mess!! 😂
@@ataraxiapainting Ah sorry that was a mis-type, I totally meant zenithal priming :S
I half agree, I think the zp craze has made painters weak, the basics aren't being learned and practiced. That said, it is a shortcut to good looking models.
But...but I don't wanna work hard and earn the skills 😭😭 great video!
Ahaha I hear you man!
Honestly i hate who put too much shadow and light... And let all the Black under... Why? Why???!!! I like paint all. If i have to put the light i use mi Brush and add shadow of graduale colour.
33,000 views with less than 800 likes, that ratio is killer lmaooooo
Thank you oh master TH-cam strategist genius for the observation 🙏🏻
I agree with what was said in this video. Zenithal is a tool. But it is also a crutch. Unless you learn some basic skills your painting will never progress.
Haha, I don’t agree AT ALL but I think your videos are funny. I’m like that, I don’t get threatened by opposing views. Btw, hating trends is the most trendy thing of all time. 😉
SPITTING FACTS: zenithal priming is a gradient. I go from black, to gray, to white. (looking at you drawing a sphere exercises from art classes)
Yeah dude, I’m not saying that… I’m saying the opposite actually. The figure in the thumb is zenithal primed in the “wrong” way, with a single spray! There are no gradients there… so my point was, it’s not that easy to create the right greyscale that actually reflects how light works
Wait, so I need a teacher too
this video basically says only zenithal if you have an airbrush because spray canning around a mini at 45 degrees is too hard. This quite honestly is absurd. Furthermore, if you're really claiming that you want the grey scale proper look, you should push your zenithal further using Vince Venturella's technique:
1) prime with a dark grey (painting on black is needlessly wasteful of your time)
2) use a grey like Vallejo cold grey at 45 degrees (midtones)
3) use white ink from directly above (highlights)
4) black wash to fix the recesses and get your free lining (air brush can hit recesses accidentally)
5) dry brush white (bring back the details)
" I hate trends!", (Matthew 7:5) :)
Ahahahhahah I died here
I was ranting at my wife about zenithal priming (about how much of a trend it is, how it limits people's potential for improvement, is actually quite difficult to do well) when I searched TH-cam to bring up a video to demonstrate the process to her. This video came up and I watched it immediately. You perfectly captured all my thoughts and feelings on it much better than the rants I was throwing around the living room, at both wife and the cat, hoping someone would listen. I couldn't possibly agree more with everything in this video. At the end I said to her 'maybe I should go and like, comment and subscribe'. So here I am. Doing just that.
Poor wife.
So teach me to do volumes
Subscribe and I will
Maybe
If you are a good boy
If I wait long enough I will find a video that contradicts all the others on the same topic.
Never use Cracker Barrel paints. Cracker Barrel paints are fine.
Dry brushing is terrible. Dry brushing is great.
and on and on.
Videos provide useful tips but that is all they are. Try them and if they work for you great.
Sorry, this video is a miss for me. I understand where some of it is coming from, and it is valid. Other things like "I just don't like trends" isn't as much. I just think that the goals you highlight zenithal priming are detrimental to aren't always the short or even long term goals of the painter - as some of the other comments have highlighted.
This wasn't why I clicked. I clicked because anytime there is a non-wet application of rattlecans (or airbrush), or any application of white and light rattlecans at all there is a mountain of things that can go wrong. Never "dust" a model unless you are very sure what you are doing. That is the more universal reason why you should not zenithal prime as a beginner, in my opinion.
Think you make great points. But they get overshadowed by a bad title and idea that there's "right way" and "wrong way". It's hard to put my finger on it but this vid just comes off in poor taste. It's like you are telling ppl they are wrong and not even giving great explanation or examples. Almost like you are frustrated with ppl not painting for different purposes. All and all lot of emotion and over thinking and not enough information and examples
Yea maybe you are right… and also probably I am a bit frustrated with ppl. But more with who advertise this technique as an easy solution, because to me it’s anything but.
When I feel strongly about something I might come up as a bit of a jerk lol but at the end of the day I’m entitled to speak out my opinions!
But thanks for sharing your thoughts, constructive criticism is always appreciated!!
Well, not everyone takes the word zenithal that literally! Instead it's more so a can opener for people to explore the world of value highlights from above and shadows from below and maybe even others in between or from whatever angle! Your video was a bit confusing at first but it got clearer towards the end. I kind of took it as a fun video but I think you went the wrong way albeit good intentions. I think you wanted to explain it further and help newbies, but you may be risking to confuse new painters with the title and saying it's all wrong in the beginning, and not even making it clear that it is good as a start to explore a whole new world of painting! Imho you more confuse the watcher than give him a helping hand to a relieve from your grim title, that they're not doing it all wrong! Imagine them, after months of painting and wondering why others excel and create wonderful blends, transitions, bright highlights and subtle shadows, beginning to explore a whole new world of options through zenithal painting... only to hear that it is all wrong and lacking! Only because you don't like a trend, how others do it or if it simply doesn't go far enough for you. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to bash you! See it as cc! I understand how hard it is to create content and stand out... That it takes many hours for a really good painting video and is difficult to tell something new through them, not always the same process and repeatedly talking about 'two thin blends' if it isn't your signature meme - 'hey Duncan'... But maybe this is the wrong path to travel if you're really trying to be helpful for people right at that point of development in their painting skills...
If you're the only person that's against calling this zenithal priming... then you're the one that's wrong. THAT'S how language works, majority use determines what's correct.
Don suratos, Marco frisoni they are idiots,, 😂😂😂fai festa da retta a me
Whuut? I don’t speak Italian lol
Te sei una grande pittrice abile e talentuosa, gli esempi che hai mostrato nel video non sono corretti secondo il mio modesto parere, sembra quasi che hai voluto eseguire la tecnica zenitale fatta un po' tirata via di proposito, sul mgmadroth ci hai dato un quintale di bianco con l'aerografo io cercherei di essere meno pesante e cercare di creare una transizione più dolce tra il nero ed il bianco, detto questo non è certo la tecnica di una pittura da golden Demon ma ti assicuro che se devi fare un intera armata da gioco in poco tempo ti avvantaggia molto
@@christianbellandi7428 intanto grazie ahah però probabilmente non sono stata abbastanza chiara nella spiegazione! Sul drago non ho fatto uno zenithal ma una sorta di pre shading che appunto ti permette di fare un sacco di cose fighe in relativamente poco tempo. Però nel preshading i volumi già li conosci tendenzialmente!
"I hate trends" - has trendy lip piercing 😁
You should see my Nike shoes 🤭
Agree so much. Hate this zenithal trend/fad.
Yeah right? Man
No thanks.
But enjoy tour cats.
You’re welcome 🤭
"I hate trends" - person with an earhoop
Yes I guess it was trendy… 15 y ago
@@ataraxiapainting true! It quickly deflated... like your ear without the ring in it
the 'trend' to use black as the default base coat is what gives me cancer - muddy shadows make me want to die.
Ahaha but I don’t think it’s the primer fault if they get muddy shadows! 😂
@@ataraxiapainting that's what you get for putting ink or contrast paint on top of black.
There's a reason this video has so few views, and this channel has so few subscribers. I hate to be negative; but coming at an entire community and telling them, "you are doing and thinking about this the wrong way, unless you are doing and thinking about it in the way I do". Stop. That's gatekeeping, and that's wrong.
I agree. And you summed up my thoughts exactly I didn't want to leave a comment as digging at a small you tube channel is rude
I'm just going to word vomit my thoughts here
Painting is a learning process but like personalities there are many different styles
There is no wrong or right way
I prefer the gradual layered highlights of the 2000s
But I don't go around shiting on the current eavy metal edge highlighting style
Different strokes for different blokes /las
The video is three hours old. Maybe that would contribute to the "few views"
I do, at least in part agree with your statement, though.
Actually I get views only if I use super extreme titles, the content in the video is just my humble opinion!
I agree; the gatekeeping attitude and trend-hate is detrimental. Let people enjoy things. It also gets confusing when you lump things like "but it is complicated, go look it up" - people are coming to channels like these to learn.
I've found zenithal or near-zenithal highlighting useful in placing the lighting. It isn't the end all, and it isn't strictly necessary, but it has been useful. It is also a great way to learn to use a shiny new airbrush! 100% great thing for newbie airbrushers to do because the goal is just to cover a general direction, and it'll get painted over later. I learned a ton about airbrush control just by zenithal highlighting a bunch of figures, which then in turn were useful for visualizing my light schemes. I am pretty familiar with how light and surfaces interact (four years of physics courses got me to.... using it for art. yay). It isn't as bad as you make it out to be, at least in regards to minis. The zenithal or near-zenithal priming is a nice approximation, even if you're going to cover it entirely later.
@@questgivercyradis8462how am I gatekeeping you guys???! I’m just saying what I think based on my humble experience. And my experience was bad because I felt I was missing pieces, both for studying volumes and Painting in transparency.
Plenty other videos teach you how to do it, I on the other hand tried to emphasize the tricky and “dangerous “ aspects of this technique. I think it’s explain badly, they are gatekeeping.. because they don’t tell you the whole story! They don’t tell you to spray like a halo, they don’t tell you to wait or varnish your mini if you are working with inks!! Imagine me doing it with white ink and then see the color come off 😂 annoying!!
TH-camrs will always keep info out, it’s not exclusively a learning platform. It’s just the game 😕
You’re absolutely smothering those models in your examples like you’re trying to make it look bad on purpose. It’s embarrassing
Like it’s not what every beginner is gonna do with a can… right? Lol
Pure snobbery.
I’m a snob yes or
With all due respect, I think you are elitist in regards to this...
Zénithal priming is suggested to rookies who want decent tabletop minis for their board games meant to be seen at a distance, not for those who want to become professional painters.
And you take the word "zenith" way too religiously: the point is to spray white from above but following a cone, not exactly at the zenith.
The way you do it is very wrong. And I doubt you don't do it that way not to make it look harder and uglier than it is.
All you have to do is to point in the direction of the minis while spraying from a 45% angle from above while rotating the mini. This is not rocket science. At least, it easier than ANY advanced technique you usually use to simulate light with paint. After 3 or 4 minis, you get how it is done.
Yes, light behaves differently since a certain percentage comes from reflections and refractions BUT 75% of the light comes directly from the source. We are talking about a spot light here, not an ambiant light (otherwise the zenith concept wouldn't make sense). So, if it's not totally accurate, it's accurate enough for a beginner. And using this technique with contrast paints will provide them quick results that would be 300 times better than those they would achieve in a year following those masterclass that are worthless for them. Those videos are showcases and no beginner learns from them. They just discourage people since they show in 10 minutes what really requires 4 hours at least, skipping steps.
So yes, there are beginners and beginners: those who want to become painters (who shouldn't use this technique) and those who want to paint their board games and don't want to screw up 10 game boxes before getting something that is not totally ugly to look at when playing.
You can't possibly ask those people to "study volumes", the same way you don't ask to people who want to draw their dog for fun and with no ambition to "study anatomy".
For people who just want to put colors on their minis so that they look less boring, zenithal + contrast is their best option to get decent results and just move on.
Be mad…. Painting isn’t yours.