when i see Haddonfield. look- haddonfield, tremendous town, tremendous. they tell me look, i see haddonfield and i see, you know, the american dream. they say its the city of comfort! beautiful people here, beautiful, and they're being overrun by these slugging killers. just awful, completely ruined. one of them told me, Entity, look, I said, she said, with tears in her eyes, look, you have to help us, you have to help us get these slugs out of here. i said slugs, of course, slugs you all know, are destroyed by salt. we have tremendous salt reserves ready to go as soon as i am in power. tremendous salt, made here, and not in china. by the way, did you hear Dwight is a big fan of a china? big fan he said. not me, the Entity. im not a big fan of China. big fan of nuclear.
and that horrible woman, she doesn't care, she hears people are getting slugged and she just doesn't care. Run plot twist she says, not every survivor has plot twist! and thats really the developers, sleepy bhvr, locking crucial perks behind their woke paywall. Sad! When i'm back in power, we're going to buy every survivor the nick cage dlc, and the killer mains are going to pay for it!
Yes. In my opinion, slugging with the sole intention of bleeding survivors out for 4-minutes with NO INTENTION of ever hooking them is toxic. There is a difference between slugging for pressure, slugging because someone cannot be hooked, and slugging someone in order to make people wait 4 minutes for the sake of it. I hope that makes sense.
This. Too many people just jump on slugging if you down someone and don't immediately pick. I've had matches with 2 boxes 2 beamers. I already know what the match is gonna be like. They immediately show me I'm correct. I down someone then go for the 2 of them nearby waiting to try and blind for the save, and end up downing 2-4 people before picking because they pressure both sides with beamers while the downed crawls to a pallet. They are already sabotaging the closest hook. I'm not gonna just pick and get denied for no reason. Then at the end they all complain I'm slugging despite the fact I had no chance of hooking if I picked. Then on the other side of things killers just slug to slug for absolutely no reason and let me bleed out along with the others and there was actually no reason. I've had it happen in solo queue at 5 gens. To be fair I've also had it happen where I'm solo and the other 3 are just there to bully, at which point it really sucks for me but I understand why at that point.
What's crazy to me is that this should be obvious but for some reason it isn't. Whenever the topic of slugging to death is brought up, it's immediately shutdown by people bringing up sabo squads, flashlight/flashbang SWFs, power struggle/flip flop/boil over gamers, etc. which is completely understandable in that context, but at the same time, how can you not understand that those are NOT the same people complaining about being unnecessarily bled out lol
Sometimes its more beneficial to just bleed someone out especially if they have no hook states and multiple survivors are around, ive had to kill survivors that way numerous times due to things like being on pallet, flashy save etc etc
"In my restless dreams, I see that town. Haddonfield You promised me you'd take me there again someday. But you never did. Well, I'm alone there now... In our 'slugging place'... Waiting for you..."
Hey Scott, heading in for my upper EDG today. Your advice about it being a super easy procedure has helped me keep calm about the whole thing so. Thanks.
@@ScottJund Update: The problem is something small and fixable, won't even need surgery. Thank fucking god. It was super easy like you said, getting ready for it and the IV and all of that was a pain in the ass but when they put the drugs in me I was out like a light and then it was over before I ever realized what happened.
I think jumping into a match with the intention of going out of your way to ignore one of the game's core mechanics just to deny other players the chance to, you know, play, is indeed toxic
@greenmogus6293 unless you bring specific anti-slug perks there's literally nothing you can do except recover and/or crawl somewhere. can't even do it at the same time without a perk. there's zero gameplay interaction there
@@fearlessflower6223 there's even less gameplay interaction when you get put on a hook. you just have to wait or let yourself die, so thats kinda moot. like he said slugging isn't something a killer goes into a game planning to do, its a tactic that is employed when the situation arises that survivors are grouped or are being greedy for saves
dbd is such a context sensitive game that questions presented so simply as the example always rub me wrong lmao. "is it toxic to slug 4 survivors" can mean anything from "as a nurse with knockout, deerstalker, lethal pursuer, and new predator" to "as an oni who just got a crazy pop of blood fury" and with no context but the presented it's impossible to answer one appropriately without neglecting the other
The problem is to entitled survivor mains they mean the same thing. The vast majority of people that whine about slugging mean killers aren't allowed to slug at all and if they get a down they have to immediately pick up.
I remember playing vs a TTV and I caught 2 of them doing gens, and I managed to down one. As I was about to go pick them up I noticed another survivor hiding right next to the player I just downed (probably to flashlight save), so of course I chased them and also managed to down them. We were still very close to the first person so I decided to go hook them first since they were probably getting revived, and I was right. I hit the person reviving and then pick up the first person to go hook them, AND THE PERSON I JUST HIT COMES BACK TO TRY AND SAVE THEM. I of course hit them, they go down, and then I hook the person im carrying. I don't want to camp the hook or the survivors but as I go to walk away I notice the last player sneaking right next to the hook and give them chase and eventually down them. I felt bad and the match had barely started so I decided to not move and let them struggle off. I then proceeded to go away to the other side of the map while they recover. Post match I went to the TTV's stream to say gg and they were all saying that I was toxic, a dumbass and the likes (it was a 4 man) and talking about how they clutched the wins and that they were way better than me (1 escaped 1 got the hatch) in a whiny and mean tone so I know it wasn't sarcasm. Wtf should I have done in this situation? Not punish the blatantly bad plays? I did my best not to slug without straight up throwing. It's like survivor mains WANT to get slugged.
Great timing on this, just had a Billy 4 man slug as at 5 gens for a 2 minute match yesterday. It’s so sad what bhvr has done to Billy, he used to be my uncontested favorite killer to play against but it’s like the only Billy’s I encounter now are toxic and sweaty
Going into the match with a goal to slug everyone is stinky. Ending up with a 4man slug accidentally is perfectly fine and usually happens because of survivor missplay. But is it toxic? I don't think so.
yeah i agree if the situation falls into place where everyone is grouped up i have no issues with that type of slugging. its the plan from the start thats so cringe
@@SebastianBetancurNo, it isn’t. Just pick up against a wall. If they’re co-ordinated/ a swf and lurking then okay, but when all 4 are on the ground, just hook. They aren’t being toxic by bringing a survivor item.
@@GG-kn2se Well now you have three people who WILL prevent you from getting to a hook by body blocking you. And this is assuming there's a wall nearby. No, they're not being toxic. But if they're there and being obvious, neither are you.
Thing is, a killer can go into a match with this plan in mind and just bring 4 strong perks that require no hooks. Killer has A TON of strong options that require no hooks at all, like deadlock, corrupt, nowhere to hide, eruption, lethal, hex perks, etc. Survivors don't know the killer is going to do this, they can't really plan for it without nerfing themselves in all other matches. Like, are survivors just going to start going into every match without OTR, DS, Deadhard, Resurgance, deli, kindred, or others? Going over Otz's latest tier list just for a reference of strong perks, more then HALF the really good survivor perks do not function if nobody gets hooked, and survivors have almost no good options outside of unbreakable or wglf to deal with slugging in this fashion. I'm not saying I think it's better, we need to see this playstyle tested more, but I think it COULD be stronger.
The problem what your stating is none of these work in solo Que and you’re absolutely right but in team settings we can play against this quite easily and that’s the borderline problem with this game it’s damn near impossible to balance because you can’t effect one without greatly breaking the other and that’s why I like the idea of not nerfing things because if there’s multiple ways people can be good yes some people will play with meta intentions but they’re are other ways you can dominate and get a similar result but when all but one strategy is bad it hurts everybody
I think this just highlights the inherent weakness of survivors all being identical rather than having classes or specializations. A killer without perks still has something going for them, something to inform their style of play and way of approaching the game, whereas a survivor without perks has absolutely nothing.
I'm continually fascinated by the way the community ignores the fact that BHVR creates this game and CAN fix this problem. They have to invent all these rules and hoops to jump through to make the game good, instead of demanding that the devs fix the parts of the game that make it boring.
“But it’s FUN to slug, it’s fun to feel the power of wasting people’s time for 6 minutes and making sure that nobody gets bloodpoints because it makes me feel really cool!” - Only slug killers. As a killer main that wants the survivors to have fun, the only time I ever slug is in situations like what Jund said where you have multiple people in one place. Even then I try to hook everyone as soon as possible to give survivors as much of a chance as possible. I like that playstyle because it rewards good play on both sides and hopefully makes the survivors feel like they are having fun.
stop the cap dude i main killer and every time a killer play chill and nice ,i get rewarded with constant body block , hook sabo , using animation to move under a palet ( very toxic mechanic abuse ) and so on ... in the end game u get teabagged , vault notification spammed and waiting 3 min in the exit gate finally in end game chat u get insulted for losing or winning doesnt matter So right when i play killer i slug hard to death the 2 last players if they never got hooked to avoid deliv and hatch i also slug and go for dead on hook surv
M1 killer main here (Trapper), and I agree with you not just on a fun level, but on a practical level. Best times to slug imo are when the opportunity presents itself with two survivors close to each other. Otherwise it's impractical as the other survivors can pick up the slugs as you're trying to get that 4 man slug and they're not bunched up together.
@@akramerraia871 ah yes take your suffering out on other survivors that potentially had no intentions of being toxic lol. its shit getting tbagged and trash talked but not every survivor takes the game that seriously as to sit and waste peoples time. you are just feeding into this toxic ass game
@@P3rtzel dude its obvious u dont play killer or u play only top boring nurse or blight, ur opinion is sooo surv sided and about me taking my suffering on others thats not correct because the majority of surv have the bully mentallity once they get the upperhand u r in for a really bad game (the game allow it to be) ,so i standardized my play style to the community and i only change it to a more chill one when i face new or chill surv.
I always find this kind of discourse around fair/intended play fascinating. There's always a percentage of players that will try to do everything they can to bend the rules as much as possible, only ever trying to push meta, and there's always a point where a developer has to step in and fundamentally enforce the rules harder, or just completely break the meta.
@@Namarot It's hard for me to place the blame on game design. I feel like it's more on certain players to not be so obsessed with exploits and winning, to the point where they do these things like holding the game hostage, or only play tactics that they know will just upset everyone.
@greenmogus6293 it all falls under the umbrella of meta. Things that are meta doesn't necessarily mean the best, most effective way to play and win, it also means that you know what is actually intended, but you deliberately play *around* that system, to take advantage of it. I'm not saying that people trying to grief are trying to win, those can be two separate things, but it's very easy for one person to do both because they know the meta well.
@@Namarot The degenerate strategies themselves are a result of design failures. Understand, we can only say this because we have the benefit of hindsight - I don't blame BHVR for making the mistakes in the first place, though I think that maybe they should be putting more effort into addressing them now that we're aware of them. If survivors keep getting perks and items that makes going for hooks risky, or allows survivors to get off the hook with limited/no penalty beyond increased hook count, then hooking survivors in general becomes a less attractive method of play as opposed to just slugging them and trying to keep multiple players downed. I think one thing is that DBD players *must* understand and accept is that the game is quite literally designed to be punishing. Either the survivors escape (usually while some survivors are distracting the killer while others are pursuing objectives) or the killer kills them - all five participants don't get to walk away happy, and there's a major issue with player mentality where "I didn't win" automatically means "bad game/toxic enemy players." Honestly, all the claims of toxicity are IMO people unable to grasp or accept this simple truth about the game. It's why these complaints inevitably and invariably boil down to "I lost because reasons, and that makes me mad."
@@BLK_MN Meta doesn't really have anything to do with toxicity, it's purely about efficiency of winning. If perks designed to punish/prevent hooking become meta, then killers will shift towards strategies that limit or avoid triggering those perks. If that means everyone takes a smoke break while 4 survivors bleed out (maybe the game could benefit from some system where it checks to see survivors have any means of recovering without assistance and then ends the game after 30 sec if it determines the survivors cannot recover?), then that's how it's gonna be. That isn't toxicity on anyone's part, that's just how metagaming works.
I used to be OBSESSED with DBD, stopped playing because I feel that the design of this game is flawed in a way where you have to play in these specific ways for it to be "fair". The fact that we're STILL debating about slugging this many years later since I stopped playing is just a reminder that a game rooted in animation locking and time management will always feels un-fun unless everything aligns perfectly and people are not taking it too seriously. The fact that "competitive" DBD is kinda a joke and has to be hyper specific in rules for it to be "fair" is another reminder this game should be built to be fun and nothing else. Yet everything being reliant on animation locks is objectively not fun to play. Don't confuse me, I had A LOT of fun learning the game, but once you know it and face players who know how to abuse the animations and can loop a tile like they're AI it just becomes a tedious chore to play unless you go full slug/mori. which is "toxic" but literally a part of the game and only toxic because the base game system is not enjoyable unless you kneecap yourself as killer to give survivors a chance to tea bag you at the gate lol.
The argument of don't group up when the killer is slugging doesn't really work when the act itself makes survivors group up to pick said slugs up off the ground...
@@ScottJund While I agree with you on most of the of the video I just checked perk usage on nightlight and the top 20 most used survivor perks 5 were hook/unhook perks where only 1 was slug/dying state based. Unbreakable vs Dead hard, Decisive strike, kindred, we'll make it and off the record.
First game of chaos shuffle with friends when it came back we got a billy that refused to hook, would down you and leave you to bleed out Eventually after about 20 minutes of desperatley picking eachother up over and over we finally managed to get 1 person out. most miserable game i've played in a very long time, if he'd just hooked us the game wouldve been over and we all couldve moved on
The fact is that: most survivors have "off the hook" perks and not anti-slug perks, since even DH became a "off the hook" perk. It's a suboptimal playstyle (since its 4 minutes on ground to kill) but guarantees that off the hook perks wont be a issue. Liking or not, its an efficient strategy, specially considering deerstalker has very long range currently.
Know whats fun in soloq? - when you try to separate from your teammates and not group up, but they just follow you around, and usually miss skill checks...theyre super helpful 🙄
That's why I occasionally use bond and other "selfish" perks. As a solo que, I'd often get 1 life. Dying on first hook either because I didn't get hooked until end game or being left on first hook because other survivors "Didn't want to alert the killer" I used to even run self-care (before Nancy) so I could avoid others and heal myself if needed. (Had gotten tired of chasing survivors for a heal or relying on med kits)
@@Hyperdisk Bond is the anti-sandbag soloq God send. Soloq often only get 1 hook. Generally left behind or ignored. So much so that Killers become a soloq teammate, when they see the trolling of the 3-man swfs
This is a "competitive" game. There is nothing toxic in regards to winning, outside cheating. As Scott said there is counter play for all playstyles. It is only toxic when it comes from a place of bad intentions. If you are slugging someone with the intention to make it so they can't play the game, then it is toxic. Least fun game I ever played I was slugged and left to die my first down. Killer was using Third Seal, which never got found and Knock Out, on old Haddonfield. Nobody even tried to pick me up even though the killer was nowhere near.. Still that was their game plan so not upset. Just boring.
5:02 true, but at the same time, when the killer slugs a survivor, they are literally wasting no time activating any slowdown perks. They can go straight to another survivor and start a new chase, whilst a third survivor needs to come to the rescue of the slugged survivor. If the killer has Knock Out, it will take even longer for the rescue to be completed. A killer who enters the match with the intention to slug is already prepared for that, bringing zero perks related to hooks and all remaining perks focused on chase only
yk what i just realized? Buddy must be thinking: why is my human meowing at this thing all the time... should i help? Maybe i should do that when he isnt home... seams important
The number of games as killer recently where I've been BEGGING for the survivors to just let me effing hook them instead of having to chase down every single one so that I can pick up without being flashbanged is frankly ridiculous. And unfortunately, those same players are not often endowed with enough self-awareness to realize that they're being slugged because they simply refuse to give up on saves! I feel bad for the people who genuinely are being slugged to death over nothing, to a point, but honestly there's a limit to how much empathy I think it's worth. Not every killer wants to deal with being fucked around every other match. Not everybody finds it fun. I'm lucky that I find it hilarious when a whole team goes down because of sheer greed before I'm allowed my first hook. I got baptized in the flashlight beams early as a killer main, so I'm more acclimated than a lot of newer players are. Frankly I think it's about time BHVR start looking at alternative objectives for killer more seriously, or at least instead of a bleedout put like a 90 second timer on slugs before they get auto-hooked somewhere across the map. That way they aren't lying around being puppyguarded forever, and the killer eventually can move on without just giving survs a totally free rescue for the sake of "playing nice"
I'll list a couple strong counter-points I sourced from my favourite DBD content creator Scott Jund as laid out in his video "Toxicity in Gaming Communities and How to Fix It" "When I think toxicity I think really nasty shit that can only really happen outside of the game. I don't think anything you can do in the game would constitute that." "Grow the fuck up. It's a video game."
8:53 Man, i can see an angle where the killers doing this start trying to say "It's actually not toxic because it takes more skill to do this 🤓" I just don't wanna be on the ground for 4+ minutes with no other option than to 'tab out and do something else'
Slugging then not hooking for the whole match to bleed out is boring and shit Slugging after downing someone and seeing another survivor right away, thats free pressure right there.
did over 20 winstreak with billy recently on 4-5 gen left with only perk spies from the shadow, made it with slugging and im over 10k hours, but u see the problem right, if u dont make mistake as killers u will get downs left and right and build infinite pressure. also lots of maps are basically filled with dead zones.
TLDR: 4 man slugging is toxic because it is highly unlikely there will be counterplay for it while picking up and hooking guarantees a chance at counterplay. 4 man slugging is intentionally done in bad faith pretty much always. It is holding the game hostage and should be a bannable offense. We can run numbers for this. There are currently 4 Survivor perks where you can pick yourself up from dying state: Unbreakable, Soul Guard, Exponential and Plot Twist. There are 16 survivor perks in a game. Let's assume, on average, in a 4 man slug scenario, that there will be 1-2 survivors with these perks for counterplay. So we have about a 1/8 chance or 12.5% to see someone get up without heals. However, in a 4 man slug we can probably assume the killer is just standing over everyone's body in a dogpile, so idk if there's any way to escape this in the first place without some insane outplay, and if you used Plot Twist the killer won't let you get away with it. Yes the mentioned perks can be used together for a better effect like with Soul Guard's endurance, but we will assume base level counterplay (1 perk dedicated) as a control group. Now there are, according to the DBD Wiki, 146 survivor perks. So we have a 4 in 146 chance of a survivor picking anti-slug in the first place. Then I would say Plot Twist isn't really anti-slug because you have to down yourself for it, can't let the killer hit you. So 3 in 146. Then let's talk Soul Guard. You can only pick yourself up with Soul Guard if the killer has a hex. So we have to assume the hex is active in this scenario which is already RNG based. The wiki again says there are 124 Killer perks, and 16 of them are hexes. Let's assume a killer picks only one hex for the build as a control group, giving us ~13% chance of getting to use Soul Guard this way in the first place. Then on top add the RNG for the activation or cleansing of the hex during the match (no real way to calculate this except by running games out of 1000). Then let's talk Exponential, which has the same RNG factor as hexes with Soul Guard. Chances it never got set up in the first place or was pre-emptively snuffed by the Killer or that the slugging happens out of range. So really the only way for a guaranteed anti-slug is Unbreakable. There's a reason it's such a popular perk, actual statistics show this perk is in play much more often than the numbers would say because this perk is the most reliable anti-slug. nightlight.gg/perks/Unbreakable says that it is used by 8-10% of survivors so we will use that figure. All of these figures combined mean, quite frankly, that if the killer does a 4 man slug, there is a less than 1% chance of the team having counterplay. On the other hand, picking up and hooking the four survivors guarantees a chance at counterplay with wiggling chances and hook spacing. So, yes it is toxic. It takes the agency of survivors away and makes them completely helpless for 4 minutes as they watch the killer mock them.
Lmao I’d wager the majority of situations where people complain and say the killer is toxic is when the strategy is MORE effective or at least decently effective compared to the “usual playstyle”, especially when the killer has won the match. Which again shows the victim mentality of survivors more than anything and this toxicity is just another figment of survivor imagination.
@@Veixk your right so let me fix that issue while, you get a dying state, you get a dying state and you get a dying state. Is that enough slow down for me or is it too much?? How about if you get slugged you got a bigger issue
@@Veixk well I can’t help that I play some survivors and my match goes perfectly normal but then i survivors on pc who just always seem to be slightly faster than normal and every time that happens they are on pc 100% of the time
I had a match against Larry last night where he had put up a few cameras all around the map and then went teleport slugging, bleeding us out at 4 gens. Some killers don't even need survivors to group up, with all the aura reads on high map coverage killers, slugging is just super overpowered and only basekit changes will fix it. Still not as overpowered as proxy-camping, which can occupy 1 survivor and guard a 3-gen simultaneously.
"They can win without slugging. It's unnecessary. Therefore I would consider that toxic". There's a lot of things either side can win without, that is annoying to verse and a huge detriment to the people they are versing. Exhaustion perks, gen slowdowns, gen progression perks, aura reading etc. etc. By that logic, that's all toxic as well. The real toxicity is people taking this shit too seriously.
Funny thing about the hook perks, as you said, there's a bunch of counters towards them with the main one being just not tunneling the guy off the hook. They're wasting perk slots if you don't tunnel! Also new leverage combined with gift of pain is an amazing counter to Resurgence and We'll Make It too, making healing under hook much harder to do (even though in most cases, survivors never should heal under hook anyway.)
I still remember the most epic slugging I was ever victim to when I was much newer to the game. At the start of the game, a Blight with Lethal came right at one of us. I tried to go and take a hit but he got the down within about 30 seconds. He then came after me and got that down. Someone else was right there trying to flashy in the most obvious way and he downed them in short order. He got the last down and I couldn't figure out why the last player never got anyone up. It turned out the killer was running Knockout and no one ever found anyone else. No one had Unbreakable or anything to counter slugging so we were done. That wasn't toxic at all to me. They took advantage of the situation perfectly. What was toxic was when they just followed a crawling survivor until everyone bled out. At least if someone got hooked they could have tried to Koby. Nope, the killer just waited until everyone bled out. We got outplayed for sure, but the insistence on waiting for 4 bleedouts with no hooks is toxic. I don't find almost anything in DbD toxic, but this clearly was.
>At least if someone got hooked they could have tried to Kobe but that's exactly why it wasn't toxic. if the killer picks someone up, there is a chance they might escape and pick up everyone else, and now they'd have 4 injured survivors instead of 4 slugs. if the killer wants the best chance of winning, the game requires that they leave all four slugs on the ground for the entire bleedout duration. this is not the killer's fault. maybe it would be more fun for everyone if the killer showed some mercy and allowed that chance of escape, but doing their best to make sure they win does not make them toxic.
The killer loses out on points and time for not hooking. It’s very easy to secure a 4k with four slugs while playing around any of the horrifying scenarios in which a 4% comes into play, while still wasting less time than watching survivors simply bleed.
Yes it is. However people will do it for that reason. Humans being humans. The real toxic thing is the fact BHVR has refused to remove it for ages and that one attempt they tried was abysmal. I honestly believe they 'like' certain toxic aspects of the game which is why certain things have remained as they are. Hell there are two perks which are otherwise awful for supporting this playstyle, yet it hasn't been touched in ages.
I agree. I feel as though blaming the player who slug, although valid, is only really treating the symptoms rather than the cause. The game allows it and even encourages it with perks like Knockout. So, the focus should instead be shifted towards BHVR if we actually want a change as a community.
theres definitely a big difference between slugging for pressure or other reasons and explicitly slugging to bleed out etc. as a huntress main, often I down someone, reload, get darkness revealed and try snipe someone with an aura. thats like 20 - 30 seconds and people may find it toxic but imo its perfectly fine
Knock out, deer stalker, mind breaker on the unkown. Literal rage bait build. Once one person is a slug 🐌 the snowball can’t be stopped. You will keep getting downed, you will be waiting, and you will die on the floor. Possibly die IRL of boredom and frustration
The thing that I absolutely hate most as survivor, even more than teammates killing themselves on 1st hook, is when a killer downs you and watches you bleed out. It's either take 5 minutes of bleeding on the ground while your teammates play the boring part of the game (doing nothing but gens), or you DC and build an accumulating DC ban timer.
10:00 The problem with this is all 4 survivors bringing plot twist, unbreakable or some anti-slugging perk is unlikely even if the meta shifted and requires them to bring perks whereas killer it is simply a playstyle to slug. They can adjust the playstyle if they choose so whereas survivors are stuck with those perks so if killer changes their mind and starts hooking or tunneling, then the entire anti-slugging meta goes out the window for survivors leaving them entirely screwed over with no alternatives to adapt to the killer's playstyle. Plus lets be honest, probably 80% of survivors are average to bad skill level-wise. Killer is easier than ever with constant buffs for the high mmr and then steamroll average to bad survivors. It's not good.....
You can apply that to any perks countering specific playstyle, like DS or OTC are almost useless if the killer doesn’t tunnel Most perks are kind of a gamble at this point because of the variety of killer powers, addons and maps
What I don't understand is BHVR's lack of consistency surrounding bannable behaviour, and to some extent, a certain double standard that exists. When people talk about a killer bleeding all 4 survivors out while humping and being a general a-hole, people always bat back with "Well ackthually, it's not bannable because it's not holding the match hostage 🤓" Answer me this, does a survivor intentionally sandbagging their teammates count as holding the game hostage? No - yet it is still bannable under GRIEFING. So please, tell me why Killers are given a golden ticket to grief to their heart's content without the same level of punishment. Yes, bleeding all 4 survivors out isn't holding the game hostage, but it's literally the definition of griefing so it SHOULD be bannable.
it's the killer's job to increase their chances of winning. it is not the survivor's job to decrease their ally's chances of winning. that is why one is griefing and one is not.
@@tasmium By that logic, if I am using a Sole Survivor/Wake Up build, then I am doing no wrong in getting my teammates killed in order for me to get a quick escape out the exit gates. Because I'm just increasing my chances of survival, and that's the survivor's main objective, right? Try again. P.S. if you're gonna bleed all 4 survivors out to be a toxic POS, at least just own it and admit that's what you're doing - don't hide behind "it's the Killer's objective".
Any time slugging is mentioned I get flash backs of old sabo days. Playing trapper against a swf group breaking all your traps, all the hooks, trying to flash light save, then getting hate mail about how toxic it was that I slugged and "Denied us flashlight saves"
I had a game with a full prestige nurse with lethal who downed me 30 seconds after the game starts (skill issue, i'm aware). Everyone person was left slugged for ~2 mins until they downed everyone. They then deliberately left everyone slugged we almost bled out then only pick up at the last second. I reported them ofc, but nothing happened obviously. Ik I could've just dc and wait out the penalty but this kind off gameplay shouldn't even be allowed in the first place.
@@kainakrit9311 Well enjoy getting a ban for the false report, nice on you to clog up the report que that needs to be manually reviewed for action to take place, I am sure the literal cheaters who also legitimately get reported are happy you did that for them. Nurse can mass slug and I do that on my nurse as my main way to play her, theres nothing toxic about it, if anything I am giving the survivors MORE chances to interact with me and outplay me as I am making the area where we play in smaller by slugging. Just because you wanna complain about being a slug because of your self admitted "skill issue" doesn't mean I am being "toxic" I don't care about you, one way or the other, you aren't my friend or my ally, your just some random nameless nobody on the internet the game matched with me to fight against, just as I as the killer am to you, we don't owe each other anything.
It seems Scott "There's nothing you can do within the bounds of the game mechanics that's actually toxic outside of saying slurs in the endgame chat" Jund has had a bit of a change of heart on what the word "toxic" means.
eh its more an evolution of my opinion. if its detrimental to your own gameplay to play like this, the only conclusion is you are doing it to intentionally make other people miserable, which i consider toxic yeah.
I think the ability for counter play is what also determines toxicity. So like the build survivor had a year or so ago where they could pick someone up in front of you and both of them get endurance. Like that would be toxic but like you get 5 mins and you can move slowly and the killer is losing out on guaranteed progress by hooking aswell in exchange for high amounts of pressure that may amount to winning faster. I think it’s a high risk high reward strategy. Similar to having a conventional job and starting a business. Conventional is very consistent money with small linear wage increases over the course of your career. While a business you are risking potentially making no money in your first year or so in exchange for huge profit margins in the future. As a tldr: it’s more of a play style as both have counter play to them which makes them inherently not toxic because of that. Imo
I get people being frustrated by slugging, but if all 4 survivors get slugged, it's usually because they made a series of really big mistakes. If they're doing it for gameplay reasons, it's not toxic. if they're doing it solely to be a dick, and waste peoples time by bleeding them out, it is. We can't just start categorizing everything that's "unnecessary to win" as toxic.
You do realize that most people play in solo queue where they have no line of communication? It would be different if you are playing with people with mics
My first game back after 18 months of not playing I was paired as fourth surv with a 3-man SWF that used basement and map offerings to be sent to Badham with basement in shack. All three of them had No Mither so they could go to the school basement, be downed there and be unhookable. Honestly, if this is what the game still looks like, I'll say killers can do whatever the hell they want and they're justified.
Winbrain killers when they have to try slightly hard to win (fundamental impossibility) Anyways, this mindset is why I run the new inner focus and wglf. Want to slug and not dedicate? Allow me to ruin that, and it works surprisingly often.
really truly i don’t think this would be a discussion if bhvr incorporated something like the face camp timer for slugging that maybe only activates when 3 survivors are down and/or when they’ve been slugged for x amount of time. i don’t know how balanced that would be. at least if they added something like that, the community wouldn’t have this discussion every two months.
Bhvr gave them the tools and they used it Blame the devs not the community if they just simply sit down with their team talk and figure out something they Don't
Lol killers got 1823 ways to get survivors exposed, 182272516 perks to reveal their aura and you're complaining about saves when you don't have to even have to hunt survivors anymore because wall hacks and can 1 hit down them in many scenarios.
I would say that survivors hook perks are way stronger than killer hook perks is a big problem. Even if a lot of those survivors are anti tunnel perks and you don’t just tunnel. Something like resurgence just guarantees a ridiculously fast health state especially if you just use the suture add on with a med kit and self heal Also that survivors have been getting a lot of game mechanics changes in their favor like 70 second hook stages which I’ve had matches where if it was not present someone would have hit 2nd. Sabo got buffed which encourages slugging. Now Unbreakable or Plot Twist does screw over slugging and I’m not saying slugging is always better it’s not. I just think hooking is too weak now due to survivors strongest perks having to do with getting hooked and killer is being punished for hooking while anti slug perks are rare in amount you have
4 Man Slugging to death? No hooks or anything like that? 100% unquestionably yes. Also what we consider toxic isnt always how strong something is: T-Bagging, Hitting someone on the hook, Pretending to assault someone on the floor as the killer etc are all toxic things to do even though they provide no comp advantage Not only is it incredibly boring, but it also ruins the game for everyone involved. Nobody is getting much BP, nobody is getting Challenge progress or Rift Fragments for it and on top of that you arent able to do anything about it unless you specifically decided to bring Unbreakable. This was already more than laid out as an issue with Onryo and thats why she got reworked afterall Moreover the badge system already answers this question, slugging is not an intentional thing the devs want you doing for wins otherwise theyd reward you more bp for it, but they dont
@@theotherauthor740 You assume everyone is as big of a crybaby as yourself and DCs every time they are slightly inconvenienced by anything in the game. People rarely DC in my games. Have fun getting bigger and bigger DC penalties and 0 BP :D
Just like everything else in DBD, context matters. If I'm in a game where people throw themselves at me consistently, I take that as "it's fair game now." In addition, if I'm against a team that wants to be annoying versus playing the game, then yeah, people are gonna be on the ground for a while, at least until the first Unbreakable gets up, and then it's rinse repeat.
it's funny that even the arguments against purposeful 4k slugging just break down because survivors can just counter the whole strat with a single anti-slug perk, of which there are many. let alone the strat not even being strong in the first place.
Serious question: why do people hate slugging? Like, let's compare it to being hooked: -You have more agency while slugged (you can actually move) -You can't die within 60 seconds because you got tunneled out (takes a minimum of 4 minutes to bleed out) -The Killer forgoes permanent pressure in exchange for chases (you know, the reason people play the game) -It's less effective than just hooking -Once you're picked up, it's harder to drop chase and tunnel, since you could've crawled anywhere -There's more perks that interact with dying Survivors than hooked ones (and they're typically alot more fun too) Like, the only thing that's worse is that it's impossible to kill yourself, and if that's really the problem for someone, they should just not play the game. Saying slugging as a win-con is toxic is like saying stealth is toxic. It's less efficient, less fun to play against, and unnecessary, as opposed to just pre-running the moment you hear the TR. It's not toxic, it's just a different way to play the game. You can not like it, but it doesn't mean it's toxic.
because you don't do anything for 4 minutes. even getting hooked to death is 100% faster, and people don't like getting one-hooked either. its not more complicated than that. you just do nothing. your arguments are mostly from the killer side.
@@ScottJund You're not doing anything on the hook either. That's what I don't understand. The only "issue" with slugging is that you stay in the game for longer. Isn't the Survivor meta to prevent Killers from getting them out of the game as fast as possible? Like, if slugging was just like being hooked for twice as long, I'd get that, but because you can be picked up from the ground as often as possible for those 4 minutes, it's like being able to be hooked 7+ times before dying.
@@ScottJundYeah honestly I'd rather be slugged with a chance to hide/be saved by my team than picked up off the ground and put on a hook and take a permanent strike 1 to my time in the game. All being on hook means is I'm checking my phone. At least if I'm on the ground I can recover, crawl to safety, aim for a pallet/power struggle, etc
@@mythmage8231 right but you aren't doing anything for half the time. that's literally it. its twice the time doing nothing. most of the times in these scenarios when you get picked up you are immediately downed again a second later because the killer is always pressuring the people doing the picking up. they arent actually 7 new chases.
There is so many perks in the game at this point the killer and survivors should be able to ban perks, 2 bans for killer and 1 each for survivor. If the meta perks get banned then gives other perks a chance to shine and gives you a hint of the play style the killer might be.
I definitely think it felt like grasping at straws when you mentioned killers not benefiting from their perks when they slug. Because you have to assume something to fit your point rather then look at it at face value. The point around the 5:50 mark was very valid and actually a strong point. Having to making up a scenario where the hypothetical killer has hypothetical perks that he doesnt benefit from because he chose to slug and thinking thats a valid reason to disregard a point definitely was a fumble in perspective and logic. Mainly because anyone that is hardcore slugging usually is doing it because they WANT to or even planned to, perks included. I've slugged before. Never 4 man slugged. But it does just randomly happen where you have to slug 2 people because they're either close together or someone is nearby with a flashlight. And if you down a 3rd at that point its beneficial to you to down the 4th rather then let them heal someone while you hook. I would even argue its just as beneficial at 2 slugs. You got 2 survivors already not on gens, downed and if they are helped up, injured... Thats a plus in any situation.
crazy how I recently brought up slugging as a wincon and suggested it was toxic when people were talking about DwichaelJackson and people in the comments did not like that since he's usually if not always a chill guy. people can be chill and well meaning but it's evident that toxic actions don't have to have the intention behind them to be toxic.
Slugging a survivor literally to death is toxic, yes. Slugging to help guarantee a safe hook/pick up is absolutely not toxic. (Example: down a Meg, and see a David with a flashlight in a bush nearby) In my opinion.
one kind of slugging i actually enjoy as survivor is when boon exponential is next to n exit gate and everyone keeps going down and reviving themselves trying to open the door and not be the one killed
As a Twins main, I have to slug but not until everyone bleeds out and I do hook in between because as you said in this video, going for a slug on the whole team can cost you a lot of pressure very fast. I think Hens intention in this poll was that hooking and slugging has a timer so it isn´t as different as many people say. However with slugging you don´t waste time to pick up and go to a hook. But is it worthy it to win like this? No, there are counters to slugging and going for a full slug is more risky than to go for hooks in between because survivors will die faster if you hook them. If you have the opportunity to end the game because there are three injured survivors at the same spot, hell yeah go for it but hook them afterwards :)
Scott-style videos are great because a tweet like this will never explain the situation correctly and will always attract negative attention because people perceive it as something else
From a strength perspective, I think just raw numbers make hooking stronger. If you hook someone and they're never touched, they die in 140 seconds. If you slug someone and they're never touched, they die in 240 seconds. If the person is picked up or rescued, and you down that person again, you now have to down them again! Once you do, if they were hooked, they now die in 70 seconds - saving you between, say, 60 to 1 second on the hook timer. If they were slugged? They still die in the same amount of time as before. Yes, there are arguments about anti-tunnel perks, but like you said, you just see a rise in anti-slug perks instead! WGLF, Unbreakable, Plot Twist, Soul Guard, that one boon, etc. Slugging is good for pressure if survivors are grouped up, since it allows you to potentially get an injure or a second down (or sometimes even a third one), allowing you to potentially threaten to snowball, but 4 man slugging just wastes everyone's time, and isn't even stronger! If slugging was the most powerful tactic, Twins would be the top killer--
I think in the case of "you don't deal with survivor hook-related perks but the downside is you don't benefit from killer hook-related perks either," that gets kinda negated somewhat by bringing other perks that either help you slug or offer utility or info or whatever. Like, yeah, you don't benefit from hook related perks, but if you’re not using hooks in the first place, then it's not like you were gonna be equipping those perks anyway.
I actually met a dude that played like this back when bully squads were at their peak. He would run that perk that hides the auras of downed players, and as soon as it became clear the survivors were on comms he would just walk over and start smacking a gen telling the squad to hurry up and get out. Pub stomping in the most toxic way ever. To be fair bully squads had no affect on him because he didnt bother to play against any squad at all. This whole game is just a toxic cess pool, entertaining to watch from the sidelines and laugh about but miserable to play. On a side note, I find it so odd that some of the content creators with my favorite personalities play this game.
Hey what are your thoughts on slug perks like Knock Out, Deer Stalker & Hex: The Third Seal? It makes aura’s or survivors completely hidden on both sides.
Feels like the inciting incident was "survivors arent left on the ground often" which became a sort of "go play civilization" when you're on the ground for 4 minutes. The playstyle is all risk, all reward; and thus turns the game from dbd to a binary "did you remember to spread and/or bring the correct perks" check. Similar to trying to triple hook someone from the start, but even more extreme because you're risking 100% of your progress if you're not accumulating any hook states. (also similar is how nurse turns the game from dbd to the nurse game... are we ready for that conversation yet?)
I also think there's a difference between four man slugging and slugging for pressure. Four man slugging is cringe and four man slugging into a bleed out just to waste everybody's time is a dick move. ETA: everyone wants to complain about dcs but then do shit that make people want to dc. Nobody wants to be on the ground not playing the game every single match
Yes it is toxic, and there should be some basekit Unbreakable after like X minutes, lets say 2-3 on the floor, that activates and lets you pick up yourself. Or smth of the sort. The killer should be pressed to hook. We waited for years to get a basekit Borrowed Time when off the hook, time for a similar thing against 4-man slugging. Solo queue is miserable for 4 man slugging because just running Unbreakable is just so rarely useful and then its not often enough. But you don't know if others brought Unbreakable/For the People/etc
the 4 man slug is a flex against equal skilled opponents and bullying if the survivors are bad; so there's a range of how rude it can be the slugging streets *DO NOT* love is when the killer downs the last survivor, closes the hatch, and stands there taunting them for the full bleedout
More than half my slug losses are when the other survivors don't heal (killer not Legion). Killer chasing on other side of map. Then, try to hide for a flashlight save or sabo. Loud grunts, surprised the killer finds them.
@@meme_lover.69 i mean if youre not ending the game quickly youre just trolling and if youre intentionally sandbagging a player then thats pretty painful
@@ashtimbog literally all my matches are like 15 minutes, in rare cases maybe 30+ minutes because 1 survivor hides all the time in bushes, and when found, uses a flashbang to get away and continues wasting my time.
IN HADDONFIELD, THEY'RE SLUGGING THE MEGS, THE KILLERS THAT CAME IN, THEY'RE SLUGGING THE DWIGHTS
when i see Haddonfield. look- haddonfield, tremendous town, tremendous. they tell me look, i see haddonfield and i see, you know, the american dream. they say its the city of comfort! beautiful people here, beautiful, and they're being overrun by these slugging killers. just awful, completely ruined. one of them told me, Entity, look, I said, she said, with tears in her eyes, look, you have to help us, you have to help us get these slugs out of here. i said slugs, of course, slugs you all know, are destroyed by salt. we have tremendous salt reserves ready to go as soon as i am in power. tremendous salt, made here, and not in china. by the way, did you hear Dwight is a big fan of a china? big fan he said. not me, the Entity. im not a big fan of China. big fan of nuclear.
What the sigma @@ScottJund
@@ScottJund I'm a Haddonfield resident and slugging has increased under Biden #notmypresident
and that horrible woman, she doesn't care, she hears people are getting slugged and she just doesn't care. Run plot twist she says, not every survivor has plot twist! and thats really the developers, sleepy bhvr, locking crucial perks behind their woke paywall. Sad! When i'm back in power, we're going to buy every survivor the nick cage dlc, and the killer mains are going to pay for it!
@@lc7173GET OUT 🗣️
Veteran DBD players watching 8 year-old drama be brought up again for the 11th time
For the algorithm!
Facing machine gun deerstalker go brrr
okay sabo back in 2016 was utterly dumb tho so it made a lot more sense
11th? Lol that's a little low.
Yep//
Yes. In my opinion, slugging with the sole intention of bleeding survivors out for 4-minutes with NO INTENTION of ever hooking them is toxic. There is a difference between slugging for pressure, slugging because someone cannot be hooked, and slugging someone in order to make people wait 4 minutes for the sake of it. I hope that makes sense.
This. Too many people just jump on slugging if you down someone and don't immediately pick. I've had matches with 2 boxes 2 beamers. I already know what the match is gonna be like. They immediately show me I'm correct. I down someone then go for the 2 of them nearby waiting to try and blind for the save, and end up downing 2-4 people before picking because they pressure both sides with beamers while the downed crawls to a pallet. They are already sabotaging the closest hook. I'm not gonna just pick and get denied for no reason. Then at the end they all complain I'm slugging despite the fact I had no chance of hooking if I picked.
Then on the other side of things killers just slug to slug for absolutely no reason and let me bleed out along with the others and there was actually no reason. I've had it happen in solo queue at 5 gens. To be fair I've also had it happen where I'm solo and the other 3 are just there to bully, at which point it really sucks for me but I understand why at that point.
What's crazy to me is that this should be obvious but for some reason it isn't. Whenever the topic of slugging to death is brought up, it's immediately shutdown by people bringing up sabo squads, flashlight/flashbang SWFs, power struggle/flip flop/boil over gamers, etc. which is completely understandable in that context, but at the same time, how can you not understand that those are NOT the same people complaining about being unnecessarily bled out lol
Sometimes its more beneficial to just bleed someone out especially if they have no hook states and multiple survivors are around, ive had to kill survivors that way numerous times due to things like being on pallet, flashy save etc etc
@@springtrapnibba That's fine though.
How is it toxic, hooking gives them a chance to reset slugging is a free win
"In my restless dreams,
I see that town.
Haddonfield
You promised me you'd take me
there again someday.
But you never did.
Well, I'm alone there now...
In our 'slugging place'...
Waiting for you..."
*awkwardly gets up with unbreakable
Why is haddenfield the slugging meme? What did I miss?
“IT’S SCOTTIN’ TIME” he said, as he Scotts all over the place
Hey Scott, heading in for my upper EDG today. Your advice about it being a super easy procedure has helped me keep calm about the whole thing so. Thanks.
gl man! its nothing at all
@@ScottJund Update: The problem is something small and fixable, won't even need surgery. Thank fucking god. It was super easy like you said, getting ready for it and the IV and all of that was a pain in the ass but when they put the drugs in me I was out like a light and then it was over before I ever realized what happened.
I think jumping into a match with the intention of going out of your way to ignore one of the game's core mechanics just to deny other players the chance to, you know, play, is indeed toxic
@greenmogus6293 unless you bring specific anti-slug perks there's literally nothing you can do except recover and/or crawl somewhere. can't even do it at the same time without a perk. there's zero gameplay interaction there
@@fearlessflower6223 there's even less gameplay interaction when you get put on a hook. you just have to wait or let yourself die, so thats kinda moot. like he said slugging isn't something a killer goes into a game planning to do, its a tactic that is employed when the situation arises that survivors are grouped or are being greedy for saves
@greenmogus6293 you must be new cause I don't think you've played this game before
@@lastcrustacean2154 this video is specifically about how some ppl slug only recently
@greenmogus6293 if all that's happening is that you're lying slugged on the ground to bleed out for the entire match that's hardly interactive at all
dbd is such a context sensitive game that questions presented so simply as the example always rub me wrong lmao. "is it toxic to slug 4 survivors" can mean anything from "as a nurse with knockout, deerstalker, lethal pursuer, and new predator" to "as an oni who just got a crazy pop of blood fury" and with no context but the presented it's impossible to answer one appropriately without neglecting the other
Ignore that knockout doesn't work on nurse, my argument depends on it.
@@smokerthewhite I mean it DOES, you just have to actually hit them with an M1 attack and not a blink(they don't count as basics).
@@smokerthewhite she can use third seal, undying, thrill, deerstalker, and a map offering like midwich
The problem is to entitled survivor mains they mean the same thing. The vast majority of people that whine about slugging mean killers aren't allowed to slug at all and if they get a down they have to immediately pick up.
I remember playing vs a TTV and I caught 2 of them doing gens, and I managed to down one. As I was about to go pick them up I noticed another survivor hiding right next to the player I just downed (probably to flashlight save), so of course I chased them and also managed to down them. We were still very close to the first person so I decided to go hook them first since they were probably getting revived, and I was right. I hit the person reviving and then pick up the first person to go hook them, AND THE PERSON I JUST HIT COMES BACK TO TRY AND SAVE THEM. I of course hit them, they go down, and then I hook the person im carrying. I don't want to camp the hook or the survivors but as I go to walk away I notice the last player sneaking right next to the hook and give them chase and eventually down them.
I felt bad and the match had barely started so I decided to not move and let them struggle off. I then proceeded to go away to the other side of the map while they recover. Post match I went to the TTV's stream to say gg and they were all saying that I was toxic, a dumbass and the likes (it was a 4 man) and talking about how they clutched the wins and that they were way better than me (1 escaped 1 got the hatch) in a whiny and mean tone so I know it wasn't sarcasm. Wtf should I have done in this situation? Not punish the blatantly bad plays? I did my best not to slug without straight up throwing. It's like survivor mains WANT to get slugged.
Great timing on this, just had a Billy 4 man slug as at 5 gens for a 2 minute match yesterday. It’s so sad what bhvr has done to Billy, he used to be my uncontested favorite killer to play against but it’s like the only Billy’s I encounter now are toxic and sweaty
Going into the match with a goal to slug everyone is stinky. Ending up with a 4man slug accidentally is perfectly fine and usually happens because of survivor missplay. But is it toxic? I don't think so.
yeah i agree if the situation falls into place where everyone is grouped up i have no issues with that type of slugging. its the plan from the start thats so cringe
Yup, this.
This. Only time I slug a full team is if they’re all around with flashies. That is completely their fault.
@@SebastianBetancurNo, it isn’t. Just pick up against a wall. If they’re co-ordinated/ a swf and lurking then okay, but when all 4 are on the ground, just hook. They aren’t being toxic by bringing a survivor item.
@@GG-kn2se Well now you have three people who WILL prevent you from getting to a hook by body blocking you.
And this is assuming there's a wall nearby.
No, they're not being toxic. But if they're there and being obvious, neither are you.
Scott and Jund in the morning!
Thing is, a killer can go into a match with this plan in mind and just bring 4 strong perks that require no hooks. Killer has A TON of strong options that require no hooks at all, like deadlock, corrupt, nowhere to hide, eruption, lethal, hex perks, etc. Survivors don't know the killer is going to do this, they can't really plan for it without nerfing themselves in all other matches. Like, are survivors just going to start going into every match without OTR, DS, Deadhard, Resurgance, deli, kindred, or others? Going over Otz's latest tier list just for a reference of strong perks, more then HALF the really good survivor perks do not function if nobody gets hooked, and survivors have almost no good options outside of unbreakable or wglf to deal with slugging in this fashion.
I'm not saying I think it's better, we need to see this playstyle tested more, but I think it COULD be stronger.
The problem what your stating is none of these work in solo Que and you’re absolutely right but in team settings we can play against this quite easily and that’s the borderline problem with this game it’s damn near impossible to balance because you can’t effect one without greatly breaking the other and that’s why I like the idea of not nerfing things because if there’s multiple ways people can be good yes some people will play with meta intentions but they’re are other ways you can dominate and get a similar result but when all but one strategy is bad it hurts everybody
I think this just highlights the inherent weakness of survivors all being identical rather than having classes or specializations. A killer without perks still has something going for them, something to inform their style of play and way of approaching the game, whereas a survivor without perks has absolutely nothing.
I'm continually fascinated by the way the community ignores the fact that BHVR creates this game and CAN fix this problem. They have to invent all these rules and hoops to jump through to make the game good, instead of demanding that the devs fix the parts of the game that make it boring.
“But it’s FUN to slug, it’s fun to feel the power of wasting people’s time for 6 minutes and making sure that nobody gets bloodpoints because it makes me feel really cool!” - Only slug killers.
As a killer main that wants the survivors to have fun, the only time I ever slug is in situations like what Jund said where you have multiple people in one place. Even then I try to hook everyone as soon as possible to give survivors as much of a chance as possible. I like that playstyle because it rewards good play on both sides and hopefully makes the survivors feel like they are having fun.
stop the cap dude
i main killer and every time a killer play chill and nice ,i get rewarded with constant body block , hook sabo , using animation to move under a palet ( very toxic mechanic abuse ) and so on ...
in the end game u get teabagged , vault notification spammed and waiting 3 min in the exit gate
finally in end game chat u get insulted for losing or winning doesnt matter
So right when i play killer i slug hard to death the 2 last players if they never got hooked to avoid deliv and hatch
i also slug and go for dead on hook surv
Thank you for that. ❤️
M1 killer main here (Trapper), and I agree with you not just on a fun level, but on a practical level. Best times to slug imo are when the opportunity presents itself with two survivors close to each other. Otherwise it's impractical as the other survivors can pick up the slugs as you're trying to get that 4 man slug and they're not bunched up together.
@@akramerraia871 ah yes take your suffering out on other survivors that potentially had no intentions of being toxic lol. its shit getting tbagged and trash talked but not every survivor takes the game that seriously as to sit and waste peoples time. you are just feeding into this toxic ass game
@@P3rtzel dude its obvious u dont play killer or u play only top boring nurse or blight, ur opinion is sooo surv sided
and about me taking my suffering on others thats not correct because the majority of surv have the bully mentallity once they get the upperhand u r in for a really bad game (the game allow it to be) ,so i standardized my play style to the community and i only change it to a more chill one when i face new or chill surv.
I always find this kind of discourse around fair/intended play fascinating.
There's always a percentage of players that will try to do everything they can to bend the rules as much as possible, only ever trying to push meta, and there's always a point where a developer has to step in and fundamentally enforce the rules harder, or just completely break the meta.
Ultimately it's a failure of game design. The best way to play should also be a fun way to play, and degenerate strategies shouldn't even be possible.
@@Namarot It's hard for me to place the blame on game design. I feel like it's more on certain players to not be so obsessed with exploits and winning, to the point where they do these things like holding the game hostage, or only play tactics that they know will just upset everyone.
@greenmogus6293 it all falls under the umbrella of meta. Things that are meta doesn't necessarily mean the best, most effective way to play and win, it also means that you know what is actually intended, but you deliberately play *around* that system, to take advantage of it.
I'm not saying that people trying to grief are trying to win, those can be two separate things, but it's very easy for one person to do both because they know the meta well.
@@Namarot The degenerate strategies themselves are a result of design failures. Understand, we can only say this because we have the benefit of hindsight - I don't blame BHVR for making the mistakes in the first place, though I think that maybe they should be putting more effort into addressing them now that we're aware of them. If survivors keep getting perks and items that makes going for hooks risky, or allows survivors to get off the hook with limited/no penalty beyond increased hook count, then hooking survivors in general becomes a less attractive method of play as opposed to just slugging them and trying to keep multiple players downed.
I think one thing is that DBD players *must* understand and accept is that the game is quite literally designed to be punishing. Either the survivors escape (usually while some survivors are distracting the killer while others are pursuing objectives) or the killer kills them - all five participants don't get to walk away happy, and there's a major issue with player mentality where "I didn't win" automatically means "bad game/toxic enemy players." Honestly, all the claims of toxicity are IMO people unable to grasp or accept this simple truth about the game. It's why these complaints inevitably and invariably boil down to "I lost because reasons, and that makes me mad."
@@BLK_MN Meta doesn't really have anything to do with toxicity, it's purely about efficiency of winning. If perks designed to punish/prevent hooking become meta, then killers will shift towards strategies that limit or avoid triggering those perks. If that means everyone takes a smoke break while 4 survivors bleed out (maybe the game could benefit from some system where it checks to see survivors have any means of recovering without assistance and then ends the game after 30 sec if it determines the survivors cannot recover?), then that's how it's gonna be. That isn't toxicity on anyone's part, that's just how metagaming works.
I used to be OBSESSED with DBD, stopped playing because I feel that the design of this game is flawed in a way where you have to play in these specific ways for it to be "fair". The fact that we're STILL debating about slugging this many years later since I stopped playing is just a reminder that a game rooted in animation locking and time management will always feels un-fun unless everything aligns perfectly and people are not taking it too seriously.
The fact that "competitive" DBD is kinda a joke and has to be hyper specific in rules for it to be "fair" is another reminder this game should be built to be fun and nothing else. Yet everything being reliant on animation locks is objectively not fun to play.
Don't confuse me, I had A LOT of fun learning the game, but once you know it and face players who know how to abuse the animations and can loop a tile like they're AI it just becomes a tedious chore to play unless you go full slug/mori. which is "toxic" but literally a part of the game and only toxic because the base game system is not enjoyable unless you kneecap yourself as killer to give survivors a chance to tea bag you at the gate lol.
The argument of don't group up when the killer is slugging doesn't really work when the act itself makes survivors group up to pick said slugs up off the ground...
Yeah I hate how people say the counter to slugging is just to let your teammate bleed out
It takes only 1 person to pick up the other two can be on gens
Like people need to gtf over this "I can technically do it, so idk why you're mad" it's so fucking beyond ignorant.
8:20 not necessarily. It is more likely that survivors are running the hook perks than the slug perks, because slugging is less common of a strategy.
based on what data
@@ScottJund you know that data doesn't exist. It's anecdotal
@@ScottJund nightlight's top 50 perks rn include 11 hook perks and 2 slug perks.
@@ScottJund While I agree with you on most of the of the video I just checked perk usage on nightlight and the top 20 most used survivor perks 5 were hook/unhook perks where only 1 was slug/dying state based. Unbreakable vs Dead hard, Decisive strike, kindred, we'll make it and off the record.
@@Dustaroo and what were to happen if this strategy became more popular?
In my opinion ever since the yellow mori became basekit slugging seems to be even more popular
First game of chaos shuffle with friends when it came back we got a billy that refused to hook, would down you and leave you to bleed out
Eventually after about 20 minutes of desperatley picking eachother up over and over we finally managed to get 1 person out.
most miserable game i've played in a very long time, if he'd just hooked us the game wouldve been over and we all couldve moved on
I had that too and when we had screech cobblers they would do that
So because he refused to hook you guys managed to get a 1man out instead of him getting a 4k....how is that miserable?
@@atrozzorta9602 Because they all died and got bleed out
@@rebarodriguez4803 No they didn't. They even said after 20mins of picking each other up and they managed to get a 1man out. Please read.
@@atrozzorta9602 Meaning that they died if one man survived
Nope, make the game as toxic as possible. Until everyone learns kills=skills. Have fun y’all
I only slug if someone else is nearby trying to get a save or just hanging around for some reason.
As long as you hook the survivors as soon as they're all down, I don't think slugging is toxic. It's a playstyle.
The fact is that: most survivors have "off the hook" perks and not anti-slug perks, since even DH became a "off the hook" perk. It's a suboptimal playstyle (since its 4 minutes on ground to kill) but guarantees that off the hook perks wont be a issue. Liking or not, its an efficient strategy, specially considering deerstalker has very long range currently.
You going into that guys first game in his vod and he immediately complains about unbreakable and WGLF and sounding super stressed out is hilarious
Know whats fun in soloq? - when you try to separate from your teammates and not group up, but they just follow you around, and usually miss skill checks...theyre super helpful 🙄
Co-op objective points are so juicy tho.
@@JakeobEthe points from actually winning a match juicier
That's why I occasionally use bond and other "selfish" perks.
As a solo que, I'd often get 1 life. Dying on first hook either because I didn't get hooked until end game or being left on first hook because other survivors "Didn't want to alert the killer"
I used to even run self-care (before Nancy) so I could avoid others and heal myself if needed. (Had gotten tired of chasing survivors for a heal or relying on med kits)
@@Hyperdisk Bond is the anti-sandbag soloq God send.
Soloq often only get 1 hook. Generally left behind or ignored. So much so that Killers become a soloq teammate, when they see the trolling of the 3-man swfs
Yep dwichaeljackson slugging every game as Billy and when you call him out on it they tell you to get good
This is a "competitive" game. There is nothing toxic in regards to winning, outside cheating. As Scott said there is counter play for all playstyles.
It is only toxic when it comes from a place of bad intentions. If you are slugging someone with the intention to make it so they can't play the game, then it is toxic.
Least fun game I ever played I was slugged and left to die my first down. Killer was using Third Seal, which never got found and Knock Out, on old Haddonfield. Nobody even tried to pick me up even though the killer was nowhere near.. Still that was their game plan so not upset. Just boring.
5:02 true, but at the same time, when the killer slugs a survivor, they are literally wasting no time activating any slowdown perks. They can go straight to another survivor and start a new chase, whilst a third survivor needs to come to the rescue of the slugged survivor. If the killer has Knock Out, it will take even longer for the rescue to be completed. A killer who enters the match with the intention to slug is already prepared for that, bringing zero perks related to hooks and all remaining perks focused on chase only
yk what i just realized?
Buddy must be thinking: why is my human meowing at this thing all the time... should i help? Maybe i should do that when he isnt home... seams important
Animals don't
@@stanleyyelnats-x3i dont what?
@@firetube8288 in ancient rome they had a word for someone like you
@@stanleyyelnats-x3i they probably had a word for someone that refuses to speak plainly and in full sentences aswell
@@firetube8288Got his ass. 😂
The number of games as killer recently where I've been BEGGING for the survivors to just let me effing hook them instead of having to chase down every single one so that I can pick up without being flashbanged is frankly ridiculous. And unfortunately, those same players are not often endowed with enough self-awareness to realize that they're being slugged because they simply refuse to give up on saves! I feel bad for the people who genuinely are being slugged to death over nothing, to a point, but honestly there's a limit to how much empathy I think it's worth. Not every killer wants to deal with being fucked around every other match. Not everybody finds it fun. I'm lucky that I find it hilarious when a whole team goes down because of sheer greed before I'm allowed my first hook. I got baptized in the flashlight beams early as a killer main, so I'm more acclimated than a lot of newer players are.
Frankly I think it's about time BHVR start looking at alternative objectives for killer more seriously, or at least instead of a bleedout put like a 90 second timer on slugs before they get auto-hooked somewhere across the map. That way they aren't lying around being puppyguarded forever, and the killer eventually can move on without just giving survs a totally free rescue for the sake of "playing nice"
I'll list a couple strong counter-points I sourced from my favourite DBD content creator Scott Jund as laid out in his video "Toxicity in Gaming Communities and How to Fix It"
"When I think toxicity I think really nasty shit that can only really happen outside of the game. I don't think anything you can do in the game would constitute that."
"Grow the fuck up. It's a video game."
8:53 Man, i can see an angle where the killers doing this start trying to say "It's actually not toxic because it takes more skill to do this 🤓"
I just don't wanna be on the ground for 4+ minutes with no other option than to 'tab out and do something else'
Crazy how I just had a SM slug everyone with knockout for 4 minutes before I saw this vid
I guess Skull Merchant players now being evil for the sake of it
went against a billy with knockout third seal slugging at 5 generators twice earlier, i just got off the game
@DeadHardTV it's mostly people being cunts and wanting her removed to they be toxic on her
Knockout needs a nerf. It’s not strong, but it encourages a boring playstyle.
@@Katana314use locker when about to go down it completely negates knockout effects and wastes a bit more seconds of killers time, your welcome
It is not toxic to slug 4 man unless you don't hook after getting the fourth slug
Slugging then not hooking for the whole match to bleed out is boring and shit
Slugging after downing someone and seeing another survivor right away, thats free pressure right there.
Hillbilly slugging is a guaranteed waste of 15 minutes for everyone. Disable killer power when 2 survivors are Slugged.
@@ChaosRevealsOrder nope or we can do that then automatically break every pallet and wall on the map after 3 gens go too fast
did over 20 winstreak with billy recently on 4-5 gen left with only perk spies from the shadow, made it with slugging and im over 10k hours, but u see the problem right, if u dont make mistake as killers u will get downs left and right and build infinite pressure. also lots of maps are basically filled with dead zones.
TLDR: 4 man slugging is toxic because it is highly unlikely there will be counterplay for it while picking up and hooking guarantees a chance at counterplay. 4 man slugging is intentionally done in bad faith pretty much always. It is holding the game hostage and should be a bannable offense.
We can run numbers for this. There are currently 4 Survivor perks where you can pick yourself up from dying state: Unbreakable, Soul Guard, Exponential and Plot Twist. There are 16 survivor perks in a game. Let's assume, on average, in a 4 man slug scenario, that there will be 1-2 survivors with these perks for counterplay. So we have about a 1/8 chance or 12.5% to see someone get up without heals. However, in a 4 man slug we can probably assume the killer is just standing over everyone's body in a dogpile, so idk if there's any way to escape this in the first place without some insane outplay, and if you used Plot Twist the killer won't let you get away with it. Yes the mentioned perks can be used together for a better effect like with Soul Guard's endurance, but we will assume base level counterplay (1 perk dedicated) as a control group.
Now there are, according to the DBD Wiki, 146 survivor perks. So we have a 4 in 146 chance of a survivor picking anti-slug in the first place. Then I would say Plot Twist isn't really anti-slug because you have to down yourself for it, can't let the killer hit you. So 3 in 146. Then let's talk Soul Guard. You can only pick yourself up with Soul Guard if the killer has a hex. So we have to assume the hex is active in this scenario which is already RNG based. The wiki again says there are 124 Killer perks, and 16 of them are hexes. Let's assume a killer picks only one hex for the build as a control group, giving us ~13% chance of getting to use Soul Guard this way in the first place. Then on top add the RNG for the activation or cleansing of the hex during the match (no real way to calculate this except by running games out of 1000). Then let's talk Exponential, which has the same RNG factor as hexes with Soul Guard. Chances it never got set up in the first place or was pre-emptively snuffed by the Killer or that the slugging happens out of range. So really the only way for a guaranteed anti-slug is Unbreakable. There's a reason it's such a popular perk, actual statistics show this perk is in play much more often than the numbers would say because this perk is the most reliable anti-slug. nightlight.gg/perks/Unbreakable says that it is used by 8-10% of survivors so we will use that figure.
All of these figures combined mean, quite frankly, that if the killer does a 4 man slug, there is a less than 1% chance of the team having counterplay. On the other hand, picking up and hooking the four survivors guarantees a chance at counterplay with wiggling chances and hook spacing. So, yes it is toxic. It takes the agency of survivors away and makes them completely helpless for 4 minutes as they watch the killer mock them.
Lmao I’d wager the majority of situations where people complain and say the killer is toxic is when the strategy is MORE effective or at least decently effective compared to the “usual playstyle”, especially when the killer has won the match. Which again shows the victim mentality of survivors more than anything and this toxicity is just another figment of survivor imagination.
I'ven't played this game in a while and never been happier.
if popping 4 gens in 2 and half minutes like no big deal is a thing, then slugging should be allowed
if slugging is toxic then doing gens that fast is also toxic
A gen is 90 seconds if 4 gens pop in 150 seconds you got bigger issues.
@@Veixk your right so let me fix that issue while, you get a dying state, you get a dying state and you get a dying state. Is that enough slow down for me or is it too much?? How about if you get slugged you got a bigger issue
@@ericblackwell70 The issue is your chases are lasting too long, it doesnt matter how much you plan to slug if you never get a down bro
@@Veixk well I can’t help that I play some survivors and my match goes perfectly normal but then i survivors on pc who just always seem to be slightly faster than normal and every time that happens they are on pc 100% of the time
I had a match against Larry last night where he had put up a few cameras all around the map and then went teleport slugging, bleeding us out at 4 gens. Some killers don't even need survivors to group up, with all the aura reads on high map coverage killers, slugging is just super overpowered and only basekit changes will fix it. Still not as overpowered as proxy-camping, which can occupy 1 survivor and guard a 3-gen simultaneously.
"They can win without slugging. It's unnecessary. Therefore I would consider that toxic".
There's a lot of things either side can win without, that is annoying to verse and a huge detriment to the people they are versing. Exhaustion perks, gen slowdowns, gen progression perks, aura reading etc. etc.
By that logic, that's all toxic as well.
The real toxicity is people taking this shit too seriously.
Funny thing about the hook perks, as you said, there's a bunch of counters towards them with the main one being just not tunneling the guy off the hook. They're wasting perk slots if you don't tunnel!
Also new leverage combined with gift of pain is an amazing counter to Resurgence and We'll Make It too, making healing under hook much harder to do (even though in most cases, survivors never should heal under hook anyway.)
I still remember the most epic slugging I was ever victim to when I was much newer to the game. At the start of the game, a Blight with Lethal came right at one of us. I tried to go and take a hit but he got the down within about 30 seconds. He then came after me and got that down. Someone else was right there trying to flashy in the most obvious way and he downed them in short order. He got the last down and I couldn't figure out why the last player never got anyone up. It turned out the killer was running Knockout and no one ever found anyone else. No one had Unbreakable or anything to counter slugging so we were done.
That wasn't toxic at all to me. They took advantage of the situation perfectly. What was toxic was when they just followed a crawling survivor until everyone bled out. At least if someone got hooked they could have tried to Koby. Nope, the killer just waited until everyone bled out. We got outplayed for sure, but the insistence on waiting for 4 bleedouts with no hooks is toxic. I don't find almost anything in DbD toxic, but this clearly was.
>At least if someone got hooked they could have tried to Kobe
but that's exactly why it wasn't toxic. if the killer picks someone up, there is a chance they might escape and pick up everyone else, and now they'd have 4 injured survivors instead of 4 slugs. if the killer wants the best chance of winning, the game requires that they leave all four slugs on the ground for the entire bleedout duration. this is not the killer's fault. maybe it would be more fun for everyone if the killer showed some mercy and allowed that chance of escape, but doing their best to make sure they win does not make them toxic.
The killer loses out on points and time for not hooking. It’s very easy to secure a 4k with four slugs while playing around any of the horrifying scenarios in which a 4% comes into play, while still wasting less time than watching survivors simply bleed.
@@tasmiumIf killers play how they explained its indeed toxic. Just admit you play that way
@@tasmiumdo you really need to win EVERY game though? is the 4% that terrifying to you that you HAVE to waste everyone’s time? grow up.
If survivors are trying to prevent me from hooking after a down, I'll stop trying to hook and just leave them all on the ground.
Yes it is. However people will do it for that reason. Humans being humans. The real toxic thing is the fact BHVR has refused to remove it for ages and that one attempt they tried was abysmal. I honestly believe they 'like' certain toxic aspects of the game which is why certain things have remained as they are. Hell there are two perks which are otherwise awful for supporting this playstyle, yet it hasn't been touched in ages.
I agree. I feel as though blaming the player who slug, although valid, is only really treating the symptoms rather than the cause. The game allows it and even encourages it with perks like Knockout. So, the focus should instead be shifted towards BHVR if we actually want a change as a community.
I think the reason why they haven't done anything is because some of them play the game and are a killer main
let me guess your a survivor main who never plays killer
theres definitely a big difference between slugging for pressure or other reasons and explicitly slugging to bleed out etc. as a huntress main, often I down someone, reload, get darkness revealed and try snipe someone with an aura. thats like 20 - 30 seconds and people may find it toxic but imo its perfectly fine
Knock out, deer stalker, mind breaker on the unkown. Literal rage bait build. Once one person is a slug 🐌 the snowball can’t be stopped. You will keep getting downed, you will be waiting, and you will die on the floor. Possibly die IRL of boredom and frustration
and it’s what they deserve
here we go again scott cherrypicking worst examples and ignoring the best to paint a picture of his bias
The thing that I absolutely hate most as survivor, even more than teammates killing themselves on 1st hook, is when a killer downs you and watches you bleed out.
It's either take 5 minutes of bleeding on the ground while your teammates play the boring part of the game (doing nothing but gens), or you DC and build an accumulating DC ban timer.
10:00 The problem with this is all 4 survivors bringing plot twist, unbreakable or some anti-slugging perk is unlikely even if the meta shifted and requires them to bring perks whereas killer it is simply a playstyle to slug. They can adjust the playstyle if they choose so whereas survivors are stuck with those perks so if killer changes their mind and starts hooking or tunneling, then the entire anti-slugging meta goes out the window for survivors leaving them entirely screwed over with no alternatives to adapt to the killer's playstyle. Plus lets be honest, probably 80% of survivors are average to bad skill level-wise. Killer is easier than ever with constant buffs for the high mmr and then steamroll average to bad survivors. It's not good.....
i mean plot twist at its absolute WORST is still a free full heal so not really
You can apply that to any perks countering specific playstyle, like DS or OTC are almost useless if the killer doesn’t tunnel
Most perks are kind of a gamble at this point because of the variety of killer powers, addons and maps
What I don't understand is BHVR's lack of consistency surrounding bannable behaviour, and to some extent, a certain double standard that exists.
When people talk about a killer bleeding all 4 survivors out while humping and being a general a-hole, people always bat back with "Well ackthually, it's not bannable because it's not holding the match hostage 🤓"
Answer me this, does a survivor intentionally sandbagging their teammates count as holding the game hostage? No - yet it is still bannable under GRIEFING.
So please, tell me why Killers are given a golden ticket to grief to their heart's content without the same level of punishment. Yes, bleeding all 4 survivors out isn't holding the game hostage, but it's literally the definition of griefing so it SHOULD be bannable.
Probly cause they would lose over half of the player base if they went in and started to ban all the people that is doing stuff that should be banned
@@rustymarriott9951
Honestly, yeah.
it's the killer's job to increase their chances of winning. it is not the survivor's job to decrease their ally's chances of winning. that is why one is griefing and one is not.
@@tasmium
By that logic, if I am using a Sole Survivor/Wake Up build, then I am doing no wrong in getting my teammates killed in order for me to get a quick escape out the exit gates. Because I'm just increasing my chances of survival, and that's the survivor's main objective, right?
Try again. P.S. if you're gonna bleed all 4 survivors out to be a toxic POS, at least just own it and admit that's what you're doing - don't hide behind "it's the Killer's objective".
@@tasmium why aren't you trying to have the most fun you can?
Any time slugging is mentioned I get flash backs of old sabo days.
Playing trapper against a swf group breaking all your traps, all the hooks, trying to flash light save, then getting hate mail about how toxic it was that I slugged and "Denied us flashlight saves"
Toxic? Debatable. Selfish and unfun? Absolutlely
Slugging and letting people bleed out is toxic. Slugging to go after the survivor you saw after downing someone is fine.
I had a game with a full prestige nurse with lethal who downed me 30 seconds after the game starts (skill issue, i'm aware). Everyone person was left slugged for ~2 mins until they downed everyone. They then deliberately left everyone slugged we almost bled out then only pick up at the last second. I reported them ofc, but nothing happened obviously.
Ik I could've just dc and wait out the penalty but this kind off gameplay shouldn't even be allowed in the first place.
@@TheoGarza cry more snowflake
Maybe maybe not. The gameplay style changed again most play 2 win
@@kainakrit9311 Well enjoy getting a ban for the false report, nice on you to clog up the report que that needs to be manually reviewed for action to take place, I am sure the literal cheaters who also legitimately get reported are happy you did that for them. Nurse can mass slug and I do that on my nurse as my main way to play her, theres nothing toxic about it, if anything I am giving the survivors MORE chances to interact with me and outplay me as I am making the area where we play in smaller by slugging. Just because you wanna complain about being a slug because of your self admitted "skill issue" doesn't mean I am being "toxic" I don't care about you, one way or the other, you aren't my friend or my ally, your just some random nameless nobody on the internet the game matched with me to fight against, just as I as the killer am to you, we don't owe each other anything.
Scott when any dbd topic arises: so here's why we shouldn't group up
People saying leaving a survivor on the ground for 4 minutes that has mobility vs leaving them on a stationary hook for 2:20 is wild
If you haven't, do a video on the most common form of toxicity in the game: running out the end game collapse at exit gates to t-bag.
It seems Scott "There's nothing you can do within the bounds of the game mechanics that's actually toxic outside of saying slurs in the endgame chat" Jund has had a bit of a change of heart on what the word "toxic" means.
eh its more an evolution of my opinion. if its detrimental to your own gameplay to play like this, the only conclusion is you are doing it to intentionally make other people miserable, which i consider toxic yeah.
I think the ability for counter play is what also determines toxicity. So like the build survivor had a year or so ago where they could pick someone up in front of you and both of them get endurance. Like that would be toxic but like you get 5 mins and you can move slowly and the killer is losing out on guaranteed progress by hooking aswell in exchange for high amounts of pressure that may amount to winning faster. I think it’s a high risk high reward strategy. Similar to having a conventional job and starting a business. Conventional is very consistent money with small linear wage increases over the course of your career. While a business you are risking potentially making no money in your first year or so in exchange for huge profit margins in the future.
As a tldr: it’s more of a play style as both have counter play to them which makes them inherently not toxic because of that. Imo
I get people being frustrated by slugging, but if all 4 survivors get slugged, it's usually because they made a series of really big mistakes.
If they're doing it for gameplay reasons, it's not toxic. if they're doing it solely to be a dick, and waste peoples time by bleeding them out, it is. We can't just start categorizing everything that's "unnecessary to win" as toxic.
You do realize that most people play in solo queue where they have no line of communication? It would be different if you are playing with people with mics
@@brentthompson1607 That does not invalidate anything I said. Unless they also lack eyes and object permanence.
My first game back after 18 months of not playing I was paired as fourth surv with a 3-man SWF that used basement and map offerings to be sent to Badham with basement in shack. All three of them had No Mither so they could go to the school basement, be downed there and be unhookable. Honestly, if this is what the game still looks like, I'll say killers can do whatever the hell they want and they're justified.
Winbrain killers when they have to try slightly hard to win (fundamental impossibility)
Anyways, this mindset is why I run the new inner focus and wglf. Want to slug and not dedicate? Allow me to ruin that, and it works surprisingly often.
really truly i don’t think this would be a discussion if bhvr incorporated something like the face camp timer for slugging that maybe only activates when 3 survivors are down and/or when they’ve been slugged for x amount of time. i don’t know how balanced that would be. at least if they added something like that, the community wouldn’t have this discussion every two months.
If you’re getting slugged just run No mither 🙄
no mither's a bit costly. run plot twist and the killer will decide to hook you in the end 9/10 times
no mither + z-wall so when they bloodlust 3 on a corner of the map they can't hook you, genius!!!
I love how I haven’t played this game since just before Wesker came out and this same conversation still keeps coming up. 🙃
As a killer main that doesn't slug: make unbreakable base-kit 😈
No .
I’d agree to that if ruin gets to be base kit then
YES! Pls im a killer main and i’d love to see unbreakable base kit
I mean, yea. Though as a compensation nerf, the devs should probably decrease the recovery time by a lot.
No, survivors abused it to hell and back when they tested it. It doesn't matter if the killer wants to slug or not.
Bhvr gave them the tools and they used it Blame the devs not the community if they just simply sit down with their team talk and figure out something they Don't
BHVR needs to ban killers abusing a mechanic as a form of griefing.
Refusing to hook is toxic AF
Same with flashlight/sabo/flashbang
@@Ssebyt12ignorant comment
@@HeyItsStephxleaving people on the ground is in the game just like hooks too. poor argument.
Lol killers got 1823 ways to get survivors exposed, 182272516 perks to reveal their aura and you're complaining about saves when you don't have to even have to hunt survivors anymore because wall hacks and can 1 hit down them in many scenarios.
@@HeyItsStephx true but diff killers have diff game style
I would say that survivors hook perks are way stronger than killer hook perks is a big problem. Even if a lot of those survivors are anti tunnel perks and you don’t just tunnel. Something like resurgence just guarantees a ridiculously fast health state especially if you just use the suture add on with a med kit and self heal
Also that survivors have been getting a lot of game mechanics changes in their favor like 70 second hook stages which I’ve had matches where if it was not present someone would have hit 2nd.
Sabo got buffed which encourages slugging.
Now Unbreakable or Plot Twist does screw over slugging and I’m not saying slugging is always better it’s not.
I just think hooking is too weak now due to survivors strongest perks having to do with getting hooked and killer is being punished for hooking while anti slug perks are rare in amount you have
4 Man Slugging to death? No hooks or anything like that? 100% unquestionably yes.
Also what we consider toxic isnt always how strong something is: T-Bagging, Hitting someone on the hook, Pretending to assault someone on the floor as the killer etc are all toxic things to do even though they provide no comp advantage
Not only is it incredibly boring, but it also ruins the game for everyone involved. Nobody is getting much BP, nobody is getting Challenge progress or Rift Fragments for it and on top of that you arent able to do anything about it unless you specifically decided to bring Unbreakable.
This was already more than laid out as an issue with Onryo and thats why she got reworked afterall
Moreover the badge system already answers this question, slugging is not an intentional thing the devs want you doing for wins otherwise theyd reward you more bp for it, but they dont
I still don't understand how playing to win is "toxic"
Yep, if you don´t follow their little silly rule book for killers you are the worst person to them.
have fun playing against bots for most of your games i guess?
@@theotherauthor740 You assume everyone is as big of a crybaby as yourself and DCs every time they are slightly inconvenienced by anything in the game.
People rarely DC in my games.
Have fun getting bigger and bigger DC penalties and 0 BP :D
Its just indicative of bad game design.
@@tmoney1487 I don't think its an issue with the game but with the community in this case.
Just like everything else in DBD, context matters. If I'm in a game where people throw themselves at me consistently, I take that as "it's fair game now." In addition, if I'm against a team that wants to be annoying versus playing the game, then yeah, people are gonna be on the ground for a while, at least until the first Unbreakable gets up, and then it's rinse repeat.
Dead by Daylight
it's funny that even the arguments against purposeful 4k slugging just break down because survivors can just counter the whole strat with a single anti-slug perk, of which there are many. let alone the strat not even being strong in the first place.
Serious question: why do people hate slugging?
Like, let's compare it to being hooked:
-You have more agency while slugged (you can actually move)
-You can't die within 60 seconds because you got tunneled out (takes a minimum of 4 minutes to bleed out)
-The Killer forgoes permanent pressure in exchange for chases (you know, the reason people play the game)
-It's less effective than just hooking
-Once you're picked up, it's harder to drop chase and tunnel, since you could've crawled anywhere
-There's more perks that interact with dying Survivors than hooked ones (and they're typically alot more fun too)
Like, the only thing that's worse is that it's impossible to kill yourself, and if that's really the problem for someone, they should just not play the game.
Saying slugging as a win-con is toxic is like saying stealth is toxic. It's less efficient, less fun to play against, and unnecessary, as opposed to just pre-running the moment you hear the TR. It's not toxic, it's just a different way to play the game. You can not like it, but it doesn't mean it's toxic.
because you don't do anything for 4 minutes. even getting hooked to death is 100% faster, and people don't like getting one-hooked either. its not more complicated than that. you just do nothing. your arguments are mostly from the killer side.
@@ScottJund You're not doing anything on the hook either. That's what I don't understand. The only "issue" with slugging is that you stay in the game for longer. Isn't the Survivor meta to prevent Killers from getting them out of the game as fast as possible?
Like, if slugging was just like being hooked for twice as long, I'd get that, but because you can be picked up from the ground as often as possible for those 4 minutes, it's like being able to be hooked 7+ times before dying.
@@ScottJundYeah honestly I'd rather be slugged with a chance to hide/be saved by my team than picked up off the ground and put on a hook and take a permanent strike 1 to my time in the game. All being on hook means is I'm checking my phone. At least if I'm on the ground I can recover, crawl to safety, aim for a pallet/power struggle, etc
@@mythmage8231 right but you aren't doing anything for half the time. that's literally it. its twice the time doing nothing. most of the times in these scenarios when you get picked up you are immediately downed again a second later because the killer is always pressuring the people doing the picking up. they arent actually 7 new chases.
Moral of the story: Remove hooks from the game entirely 👍
There is so many perks in the game at this point the killer and survivors should be able to ban perks, 2 bans for killer and 1 each for survivor. If the meta perks get banned then gives other perks a chance to shine and gives you a hint of the play style the killer might be.
I definitely think it felt like grasping at straws when you mentioned killers not benefiting from their perks when they slug. Because you have to assume something to fit your point rather then look at it at face value. The point around the 5:50 mark was very valid and actually a strong point.
Having to making up a scenario where the hypothetical killer has hypothetical perks that he doesnt benefit from because he chose to slug and thinking thats a valid reason to disregard a point definitely was a fumble in perspective and logic. Mainly because anyone that is hardcore slugging usually is doing it because they WANT to or even planned to, perks included.
I've slugged before. Never 4 man slugged. But it does just randomly happen where you have to slug 2 people because they're either close together or someone is nearby with a flashlight. And if you down a 3rd at that point its beneficial to you to down the 4th rather then let them heal someone while you hook. I would even argue its just as beneficial at 2 slugs. You got 2 survivors already not on gens, downed and if they are helped up, injured... Thats a plus in any situation.
The gameplay isn't toxic. People's thoughts are toxic when the people go in with negative mind sets. It's not the game, it's the people playing.
crazy how I recently brought up slugging as a wincon and suggested it was toxic when people were talking about DwichaelJackson and people in the comments did not like that since he's usually if not always a chill guy.
people can be chill and well meaning but it's evident that toxic actions don't have to have the intention behind them to be toxic.
Slugging a survivor literally to death is toxic, yes.
Slugging to help guarantee a safe hook/pick up is absolutely not toxic. (Example: down a Meg, and see a David with a flashlight in a bush nearby)
In my opinion.
if you let it happen, then that really tells me how bad you are.
@@meme_lover.69
Who said it happened?
I said it as an example.
yeah, in your opinion
@gamingmaster6377
Indeed.
Tis why I stated it as such.
one kind of slugging i actually enjoy as survivor is when boon exponential is next to n exit gate and everyone keeps going down and reviving themselves trying to open the door and not be the one killed
As a Twins main, I have to slug but not until everyone bleeds out and I do hook in between because as you said in this video, going for a slug on the whole team can cost you a lot of pressure very fast. I think Hens intention in this poll was that hooking and slugging has a timer so it isn´t as different as many people say. However with slugging you don´t waste time to pick up and go to a hook. But is it worthy it to win like this? No, there are counters to slugging and going for a full slug is more risky than to go for hooks in between because survivors will die faster if you hook them. If you have the opportunity to end the game because there are three injured survivors at the same spot, hell yeah go for it but hook them afterwards :)
Scott-style videos are great because a tweet like this will never explain the situation correctly and will always attract negative attention because people perceive it as something else
From a strength perspective, I think just raw numbers make hooking stronger. If you hook someone and they're never touched, they die in 140 seconds. If you slug someone and they're never touched, they die in 240 seconds. If the person is picked up or rescued, and you down that person again, you now have to down them again! Once you do, if they were hooked, they now die in 70 seconds - saving you between, say, 60 to 1 second on the hook timer. If they were slugged? They still die in the same amount of time as before.
Yes, there are arguments about anti-tunnel perks, but like you said, you just see a rise in anti-slug perks instead! WGLF, Unbreakable, Plot Twist, Soul Guard, that one boon, etc. Slugging is good for pressure if survivors are grouped up, since it allows you to potentially get an injure or a second down (or sometimes even a third one), allowing you to potentially threaten to snowball, but 4 man slugging just wastes everyone's time, and isn't even stronger!
If slugging was the most powerful tactic, Twins would be the top killer--
If survivors are gonna swarm around the killer then all it says is that they want a time out on the ground
I think in the case of "you don't deal with survivor hook-related perks but the downside is you don't benefit from killer hook-related perks either," that gets kinda negated somewhat by bringing other perks that either help you slug or offer utility or info or whatever. Like, yeah, you don't benefit from hook related perks, but if you’re not using hooks in the first place, then it's not like you were gonna be equipping those perks anyway.
I actually met a dude that played like this back when bully squads were at their peak. He would run that perk that hides the auras of downed players, and as soon as it became clear the survivors were on comms he would just walk over and start smacking a gen telling the squad to hurry up and get out. Pub stomping in the most toxic way ever. To be fair bully squads had no affect on him because he didnt bother to play against any squad at all.
This whole game is just a toxic cess pool, entertaining to watch from the sidelines and laugh about but miserable to play.
On a side note, I find it so odd that some of the content creators with my favorite personalities play this game.
Loving the kitty in the background playing
Adding a base kit unbreakable for every hook stage, at normal recovery speed, would prevent this type of troll slug.
Hey what are your thoughts on slug perks like Knock Out, Deer Stalker & Hex: The Third Seal? It makes aura’s or survivors completely hidden on both sides.
Feels like the inciting incident was "survivors arent left on the ground often" which became a sort of "go play civilization" when you're on the ground for 4 minutes.
The playstyle is all risk, all reward; and thus turns the game from dbd to a binary "did you remember to spread and/or bring the correct perks" check. Similar to trying to triple hook someone from the start, but even more extreme because you're risking 100% of your progress if you're not accumulating any hook states.
(also similar is how nurse turns the game from dbd to the nurse game... are we ready for that conversation yet?)
I also think there's a difference between four man slugging and slugging for pressure. Four man slugging is cringe and four man slugging into a bleed out just to waste everybody's time is a dick move.
ETA: everyone wants to complain about dcs but then do shit that make people want to dc. Nobody wants to be on the ground not playing the game every single match
Yes it is toxic, and there should be some basekit Unbreakable after like X minutes, lets say 2-3 on the floor, that activates and lets you pick up yourself. Or smth of the sort. The killer should be pressed to hook. We waited for years to get a basekit Borrowed Time when off the hook, time for a similar thing against 4-man slugging.
Solo queue is miserable for 4 man slugging because just running Unbreakable is just so rarely useful and then its not often enough. But you don't know if others brought Unbreakable/For the People/etc
This will make BHVR try adding Basekit Unbreakable again, keep it up.
the 4 man slug is a flex against equal skilled opponents and bullying if the survivors are bad; so there's a range of how rude it can be
the slugging streets *DO NOT* love is when the killer downs the last survivor, closes the hatch, and stands there taunting them for the full bleedout
More than half my slug losses are when the other survivors don't heal (killer not Legion). Killer chasing on other side of map. Then, try to hide for a flashlight save or sabo. Loud grunts, surprised the killer finds them.
oh wow this is a big discussion, i thought this was just a random debate in the discord but its pretty big
it's typical survivor sunday complaint. i say just ignore it, they are clearly bad at the game.
There’s usually something people complain or discuss about on Twitter 24/7, it’s best to ignore it most the time
@@meme_lover.69 The best comment in this video.
@@meme_lover.69 i mean if youre not ending the game quickly youre just trolling and if youre intentionally sandbagging a player then thats pretty painful
@@ashtimbog literally all my matches are like 15 minutes, in rare cases maybe 30+ minutes because 1 survivor hides all the time in bushes, and when found, uses a flashbang to get away and continues wasting my time.