A single monitor for ALL classic computers?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ก.ย. 2016
- Classic computers can be a lot of fun, but who wants a bunch of big, bulky CRT monitors around their house taking up space? Isn't there ONE monitor that would handle every computer of the 70's, 80's and 90's? Yes! I'll tell you which one(s) to look for in this video.
I say in the video that I can't think of any computer that only outputs RF - I know there are a couple, including the Atari 400 and 600XL, they just didn't come to me while I was talking. (Hey, I don't generally have a script!) So just get an Atari 800 or 800XL :)
A couple of the sites I mentioned:
Commodore monitors - Gona: gona.mactar.hu/Commodore/monit...
CGA cables for DIN connections: www.oldsoftware.com/cables.html
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I really wish someone would start producing brand new CRT monitors for the retro market.
Monitors are not boring or ugly; I think that the CRT is a technological work of art. It is to me amazing that they managed to use those with 1950s television signals.
I think a lot of people think of the later CRTs aswell. those however were ugly and just not nice to see or look.
Word! CRTs are actually one of my fave geeky subject ever. I friggin' love them, and doing research on different models and getting to try as many in person as I can. When he mentionned them being possibly boring, I was like : "huh?" :D
Hi, I just found out about your channel, pretty damn good content!
I love old tech reviews, and tech reviews in general.
Your videos are very well made
this is one of the best channels I have come across in a long time!
You have made a very good point about the monitor. Ironically, the Magnavox RGB Monitor 40 was the exact monitor I had for my C64 back in the day. It was a pretty good monitor and I used it a long time after I stopped using my C64. In fact, I used it with a VCR in the early 90s as a TV monitor and used the VCR tuner for watching TV. I later had a Sega Genesis and ordered the correct cable from a company known as Redmond Cables in Redmond, WA that allowed me to connect the Genesis' Analog RGB output to the RGB Monitor 40's Analog RGB input. It worked great and improved image quality over the composite input dramatically. That monitor lasted until 1999 when a friend of mine was using it to watch TV again and finally it stopped working with a puff of smoke. LOL It lasted for 11 years and was versatile for all of the years that it was in use. If I had bought an 8088 XT Clone or something like that it would certainly have been used for that as well. My first PC was a 386 PC that used VGA so I had a Panasonic SVGA monitor for that. The RGB monitor 80 had a smaller/tighter dot pitch shadow mask behind the screen which is why it could display 80 column text better than the Monitor 40.
Love your videos! I think it's important to keep in mind where we started in order to understand where we're going!
Hey I love my Macs (old and new) but Amiga has an entire other entry in my heart. They were truly ahead of their time. Best bang for buck.
Great advice, many are likely stuck for what to do. 15 years back I bought a Street Fighter II arcade machine without a monitor. Had a CBM 1084 and simply connected it up to test the PCB...worked great. Didn't know then that it wasn't common for monitors to be able to do that ! Sync issues etc..
You need more subs! Great video.
Wow! I had that Magnavox monitor with my Atari ST. That combo was amazing at the time.
Very interesting, and informative, video. Thanks, Modern Classic. :D
The 80s-vintage Sony PVM monitors (with the DB-25 CMPTR input) also work. They do composite, S-Video, Analog and Digital RGB. They've got speakers, too. Ones like the PVM-1390, PVM-2030, etc. The only thing they won't do is 31kHz+ VGA.
I actually didn't know these did digital RGB through the "CMPTR" port. I knew they did analoRGB through it though. Had a PVM-2030 for a while
This video showed up on my recommended list. By odd coincidence I own a Magnavox Monitor 80. It came with an IBM PC I bought on eBay a long time ago. Still works.
I had the Magnavox RGB Monitor 80 CM-8562 that I bought new back when the C128 first came out and finally died 10 years ago after constant use. They have both 40 column composite and 80 column RGB modes and even has a button for just 80 column green screen which was easier on the eyes when using word processors, spreadsheets, and databases. They were made for Commodore, Atari, and IBM, and I read somewhere that it would work with Apple II computers that had an RGB card in them. I remember I making my own cable to use the 80 column RGB mode with my C128 which I still have and still works fine.
_Boring?_ Idk man, I can't think of too many things more interesting than display stuff. There's so much that can go wrong that its just fascinating to me, trying to find the perfect display for a situation.
Hey thanks for doing this video. I was given a magnavox pro rgb 80 a year or two ago by my brother and it came with 3 cables but I had no idea what they were all for until I watched this video. When I went online to try and find more info about this specific monitor there was not a whole lot to find.. I feel kind of dumb for not realizing before what the difference between the 40 and the 80 version is but now I know. I also love playing my NES through this monitor. The composite from the NES looks amazing on this monitor and is just the right size screen wise in my opinion. I would like to make a cable at some point so I can hook up my sega genesis through the analog rgb port. I'm always on the look out for another one of these monitors because I dread the day that it quits working for good.
It may interest you to know that the Apple IIgs on your desk is analog RGB, and you can use it with the Magnavox monitor you have with a simple passive adapter. I believe the analog DIN input on your monitor supports composite sync, which is what the Apple IIgs uses, and other than that you just have to hook up a ground and the red/green/blue. It's just standard 15.7KHz video like the Amiga outputs, using a different connector.
Back in the day I used to use a Philips monitor (I think it was a CM8833) which seemed to work for a lot of vintage systems. It had all the common video input options but unfortunately I no longer have it. Suprisingly I just looked it up and one is selling at £475 on Ebay at the time of writing. One of the things I saw for it was a connection cable that allowed it to use Scart or YGB.
Oh wow, I had that same Magnavox monitor connected to my C64, might have even been the 80 version. Of course the front cover broke off and I think I permanently damaged the stand from the heavy florescent desk light I had sitting on top of it. The screen was so sharp and clear, I liked to hook up my VCR to it and watch movies because the image was clearer. It's clarity even made it possible to use an 80 column mode in the terminal program I used when I was discovering the internet back in...1991. It was often a strain to read but it was almost always better than the jumbled screen you would get with 40 columns.
Great content 👍🏻
The IIgs also uses an analog RGB output, and it's at NTSC frequency. So, if your Apple monitor ever went out, you could hook it up to the analog RGB inputs and fully consolidate your setup.
I think there _might_ be some kind of issue with the sync signal; some resources say that you should put a 75 ohm resistor between sync and ground to bring it down to the level that the 1084 uses.
I have this monitor as the 80 col version aka commodore 1902a and its great. I didnt know it was one of the best multi input monitors so im happy to own one.
I used to have a 13" Epson composite CRT that I used with my Atari systems. I learned about it at an Atari user group meeting as an alternative to the Commodore CRTs that were also popular with Atari users. It had a great picture and we even used it for regular TV (using a stereo receiver for sound) back in the nineties. I don't know what the model number was, but it's probably not easy to find nowadays anyway.
Unfortunately, in the early 2000s, I happened to have it sitting under a pipe in the basement that, unbeknownst to me, was getting some condensation and some of the water dripped into the vents on top of the case and it never worked after that.
I know it's not the same, but I'm happy with using an LCD with my 800XL now. It does have some advantages.
I love the look and function of my original apple IIe monitor.
Great video
You should totally review that Tandy GUI thing!!
EGA is backward compatible with CGA, but you need to wire up an adapter to combine the Y signal to drive the three extra R,G,and B digial inputs.
Analog RGB is similar to VGA, but here you find a composite sync riding on the Green signal (usually). You'd need an active adapter to separate the sync outputs here
If you set the DIP switches on an EGA card to indicate that a CGA monitor is attached, then it will output a fully CGA-compatible video signal, with no special adapter needed.
The 800XL supports S-Video but only luma is wired to the monitor jack so the output will be monochrome. The chroma pin of the monitor jack can be wired up with a suitable mod. Note that the Atari 800 and XE series had color S-Video but for some unknown reason Atari disabled it on the 800XL.
I just bought my first Atari 8 bit computer last week and was planning on building my own video cable to plug into my Commodore 1084S monitor. I came across a cheap cable on Amazon the should do the trick, the Kenable 5-PIN DIN to 4 RCA cable. They have 3 ft, 4 ft and 6 ft for around the $4 mark.
TI 99/4A also use this cable - same pin/RCA for composite and same pin/RCA for audio as Atari and C64. Just be aware that one of the pins on the TI99/4a outputs 12V, so be sure not to plug that RCA jack into anything.
When you get your Atari 800xl up and running I’d love to see a video on it. I found one for 4 bucks at a thrift store with no cables. Gotta pick some up. I’d like to see what I’m getting into
The Dell 2001fp TFT pre november 2004 is a great screen. Takes VGA (including the Amigas 15kHz), s-video, composite and DVI-D. (Also handles interlaced signals.) I use it for my Amiga, my C64 and my modern PCs. 1600x1200 on 4:3.
i dont find crt displays boring at all!
the way they work is very interesting, and what kinds of little quirks and features they have because of how theyu work is very interesting, such as how they are big because they have to have the electron gun at a certain length away to work properly
they are very cool and there was a lot of work put into making them work and whoever invented the technology was a genius to say the least
great subject!
Another good alternative, and actually very similar to the C=1084s, is the Philips 8833. It doesn't have S-video, but it does have SCART, so it's very usefull in the European area.
you can find ttl cga to hdmi adapter boxes that work really well and ttl to vga as well and if you have an old 4:3 lcd monitor it looks excellent and most of those support composite and S video to VGA or HDMI these are used for older industrial equipment that uses ttl cga video and most support composite and S video too. I have a mag innovision old 4:3 lcd that with a simple cable will display 15khz amiga and atari st rgb no problem with a cable and with adapter to vga will do ttl cga and composite and component rgb and even sun computers with another simple cable. it was made when there was no standard monitor around even mac video was a problem remember those dip switch adapter plugs for vga to mac I sure do. so really the best monitor is an older lcd with an adapter box
I’ve got several CRTs. A very small Sony PVM, a 15” Sony Trinitron VGA, Commodore 1084S (I paid like $500 shipped for this one!), and an Apple 14” Color Display (works with all vintage Macs and the IIgs). I think I have all my bases covered with those.
You paid $500 for a 1084S?
@@WinrichNaujoks yes
The Atari XL powersupply you have back there behind the 800XL is infamous. It's called the 'ingot' and when an ingot fails it can take out the computer too. For your own sake I hope you didn't replace it with another ingot. Atari made several different power supplies. Some where very good, but it's a very good idea to use a modern power supply. You can cut off the brick from the computer side of the cord and patch the it into a molex connector and then power an XL/XE off a modern PC PSU. Some (not all!) phone chargers give a steady 5v DC 3A and so patching the cord to USB-A can work too.
that being said... a computer should also contain a voltage regulator, fuse, and reverse polarity protection diode of it's own and not simply rely on some external psu to either provide the correct voltage or even being a psu at all (especially not if you use din plugs which are used for all kinds of things)... a "modern" pc psu however is a switched power supply and will create high frequency noise and ripple where atari psus are just a simple transformer, even with completely dead capacitors the ripple would still be 50hz. pc mainboards generally -do- contain their own rectification stuff on board. but yeah it will work. just don't be surprised if you suddenly start to hear additional noises coming out of your audio out or things like that. depending on the quality of the pc power supply. also non xt/at (atx) pc power supplies need the /PS_ON pin tied to ground to even power up. and some actually require a load resistor in addition to that (in this case, the atari will be the load resistor tho ;)
a usb phone charger will (should, anyway) only supply the 3A after usb charge protocol negotiation with a usb device. else it should just poop out 500ma or so. which by far is not enough to power an atari, although it's quite possible that on most chargers the protocol is actually just for show and it always supplies it's maximum capacity anyway. and yes, these too are switched power supplies, of an even worse quality than those used in pcs. (someone tried to safe a few pennies on copper by not having an actual transformer ;)
try to power a radio transmitter of the 12v rail of your average pc atx psu and you'll quite definately -hear- the psu. :P and not just the usual bbzzzzzzzz at 50hz. all kinds of weird crap coming out of it. stuff that isn't a problem with real psus with a transformer.
although those "1000 watt" "modular" "gaming" pc psus actually work quite nicely.. not much weird stuff on the scope coming out of those... when powering something simple and small, that is. :P but i guess they are kinda overpriced for this specific purpose.
using a 20 to 40 year old psu without as much as having changed the capacitors and preferably also the fully inefficient voltage regulator and having replaced the (probably el-cheapo and barely capable of their task) diodes the designers dropped in (hey, 1 cent less per 1000 units is 1 cent less), is however an even worse idea than using a pc power supply :P would not even connect one to a computer without measuring the output under load first. for all you know half the diodes are blown and the thing outputs ac. if i recall correctly, at least the atari psus weren't filled up with plastic goo (unlike the commodore triangular bricks, needless to say that the 'goo' doesn't exactly help with the heat dissipation and air circulation and actually by todays standards is a fire hazard) so at least you can open them and change those parts.
I wish I'd kept my old "CGA" monitor from my first PC - it was some random generic, and supported EGA+CGA+monochrome on the DB-9 port, plus NTSC composite. What's funny is that at the time, I didn't even know about CGA composite, and used the composite jack to plug in my NES. I wish I had known about CGA composite, because many early games look *SOOO* much better over composite than digital RGB CGA!
I don't know if anybody has already mentioned it but the Commodores 64's matching color monitor was the model 1702. Which came out a year after the 64.
I agree. It was, even having the rainbow stripe in front. A little "$$" at the time.
One subtlety about NTSC Commodore 64/128/VIC-20 (and also weirdly the NTSC Amigas) is that they're the only systems that bothered to dither chroma signal phase. What this means is that the chroma signal alternates with each frame. This dramatically reduces visible fringe effects and makes more detail visible. If the Tandy 1000 did the same thing the Amiga display did, then it probably would be more usable on your monitor. But it would also ruin the ability to use composite artifact colors because the artifact colors would cancel each other out each frame.
Most NTSC systems of this era mapped a byte to an integer multiple of chroma cycles, so every byte of data would end up aligned the same way every scanline, every frame. This is why vertical bars translate to composite artifact colors even though that's not how real TV signals look.
Some later systems like the NES, SNES, Genesis etc, would actually use odd chroma cycle alignment so the signal phase alternates each scanline. This results in the classic TV pattern of checkerboards (not vertical bars) translating to colors. But they choose to NOT alternate phase each frame. This reduces video quality down to the level of the classic systems, in exchange for ... well, it flickers a bit less I guess. It did produce a lot of weird looking flickery effects during scrolling in NES games, though. In Zelda, check out the weird flickering look to the specks of desert sand terrain when scrolling.
The Commodore 8-bits used bytes that were an odd number of half-cycles, like the later NES/SNES/Genesis/etc. But unlike them, the Commodore 8-bits used an odd number of scanlines each frame so the phase alternates each frame. Presto! Hardly any visible color fringe effects (in NTSC) like the competing Apple, Atari, and CoCo machines. Very beautiful in comparison. Too bad the pixels are so narrow as a result. Note how huge the left/right borders are on the C64 compared to the Tandy 1000! It's because 320 of the C64's pixels are only 7/8 the width of 320 of the Tandy 1000's pixels.
But the Amigas? They're weird. Like the Atari/CoCo/CGA/Tandy 1000, they map a LORES byte to precisely 4 chroma cycles. This should mean it always ends up aligned like the others, right? Nope! The Amiga has fine horizontal scrolling abilities, and it uses this ability in a complex way to essentially scroll each scanline a pixel compared to the previous scanline, each and every scanline. The math is complicated, and it may have something to do with the unique Amiga ability to genlock (lock its video to externally supplied video signals - useful for overlaying Amiga video over outside supplied video).
The bottom line is that the Amigas did a lot of weird complicated stuff to produce a legitimate TV-like signal that no other systems bothered with.
Oh - one other thing about the C64's narrow 7:9 pixels. It made 80 column mode pretty hopeless even with a 1702 S-Video monitor. The pixels were already narrower than "normal", so reducing the character size from 8x8 pixels to 4x8 pixels resulted in ridiculously skinny characters! You definitely would need an 80 column quality monitor to use it effectively (although I tried since I had nothing better at the time). And composite/S-Video monitors of the time just didn't bother with that sort of dot pitch capability.
Well, you obviously know a lot more about this stuff than I do, but the Tandy 1000 connects to this monitor via the RGBI input... it sounds like you're talking about it connecting through composite? I never actually connect it that way. One of the big reasons I got this monitor was that it does composite, RGBI and analog RGB. I just wish it did s-video for the systems that support separate luma and chroma, but I can live without it since it's a 40 column monitor anyway.
Ah, well then it's just a matter of the dot pitch being inadequate.
Still, it's good to be aware that the way C64/VIC20/etc output works with NTSC is vastly different from the PAL versions. I actually agree that C64 output with composite is rather good looking on NTSC. But with the PAL versions of C64/VIC20/etc? That's a different story. I haven't checked out such hardware in person, but from what I can tell from zoomed in photos, the PAL Commodore 8-bits look awful in composite compared to S-Video. I think the PAL versions are doing something much cruder.
Bottom line - all those comments saying the C64 with composite sucks? It could be that most of those comments are coming from people who used PAL versions. The C64/Amiga/etc were more popular in Europe than the USA.
I've been using a Commodore 1702 since 86'
Same here I have two in the garage that get used to this day and one of them I got brand new Xmas 1985!!!! Oh the games and BBS's I ran on them! more recently about 15 years back they were used to play my kids spiderman joystick games. They just keep going!
The C64 devotees of my era had 1702's, the Sears 4084 (see post above) was on the C64. My first true CBM monitor was the 1080 which came when I got the Amiga 1000 spring 86.
@ungratefulmetalpansy yes, proudly and a 2002.
A stock 48k ZX Spectrum only supports RF, although there is a fairly simple mod to get PAL composite output.
I mostly just use mt TVs, only my IBM 5150 & Amstrad CPC 464 have their own monitors. In the UK all TVs unless they are super modern have SCART which can acept any analog video signal. The nice thing about my SONY trinitron is it also suports NTSC.
Project for the electronics folk who know their way around analogue electronics: A converter box for converting all these old standards to standard SVGA. Several of them could likely have the sync signals passed through unaltered.
The Tandy CM-11 is awesome for the Tandy 1000. It has a finer dot pitch than the CM-5 and is suitable for 80 column text. The CM-5 looks like the monitor in this video.
Ya, I really wish I was able to find a CM-11 for mine instead of the CM-5, but the CM-11 goes for a lot more on e-Bay...
For CGA it's a problem, but as for the composite or s-video the best option is a Dell Ultrasharp with composite and s-video inputs.
when i was younger i wanted a montor/tv for each of my systems so i could run them all at once
0:00 what the hell are you talking about the cases on those machines our and pure beautiful art
NEC Multisync 3D is also very good monitor for retro gaming
One of the best monitors is the Commodore 1084S-D1. It's the never style 1084 in beige. It has RGB analog, RGB digital (C128), Composite and S-Video. It even works in 72 Hz (Amiga AGA Euro72 mode), but the image is squished together and it looks like the monitor will explode in the next moment ;-) The Commodore 1084S-D2 is the same in white, but it lacks the RGB digital input. The 1085S has no Composite or S-Video inputs, it only supports RGB analog.
Older boxes like the Sinclair have RF only and some others like the Swedish ABC series from Luxor have some of their own connectors that require building an adapter or finding a special monitor.
Lately, i've seen some Sinclairs (and even an Atari 2600) on eBay with Composite modded in, probably the best way to get something connected to a modern display, even though it may have to go through a couple of converters that could decrease quality. It's either that or running an emulator.
Some other machines are better of, there is even custom hardware built today for the Amiga that give you a HDMI connector.
Anything that's RF-only just needs a VCR to connect to in between.
See my remarks about the Sears (Sanyo) 4084. RF, composite and RGB digital i.e.CGA.
The Magnavox shows almost none of the top/bottom border of the C64 - but a lot of the left/right border. Looks quite strange and border graphics will not be visible. Can the width/height of the picture be adjusted on that monitor?
That boot-up sound... Makes me want to have one of those.
I still remember how my family's first PC from early 2000s used to sound on boot, so different to today's (mostly) quieter machines.
+Swift Fox Yeah I do love that spinup sound. The hard drive whine that keeps going, on the other hand...
I remember even back then it was hard to find a monitor.
I just got an IBM 5150 with a cga card (no monitor). I bought an Amdek Color I monitor for it that has an rca composite input. The CGA card has a composite rca output on it so I thought it would work. For some reason though it just doesn't look right. MS-DOS is ok but any text in color is unreadable unless very large. For example on the boot up screen you can read IBM but everything else in text color is just not readable. I hooked it up to a modern flat screen and it basically did the same thing. The guy I bought it from has pictures from a 5153 monitor and everything looks fine. I tried looking for a 5153 but everything on eBay had something wrong with it. I'm trying to figure out what to do.
Sorry, got to disagree about the Commodore 64 composite vs. S-Video. I have the 1084S and when I run my C64 through it via composite, it looks great. But when I switch to S-Video, it becomes amazing. Almost no dot-crawl, SHARP text, etc. In fact, I recently built my own Amiga 500 S-Video adapter and the image is so good, it almost looks like VGA. I have to admit, however, that the 1084 display is probably better than most. S-Video on my 42" plasma looks like crap. But then again, I'm magnifying the defects many times over. When my 1084S dies, you will hear a grown man cry.
S-Video had a bandwith around 4 MHz, enough for a C64. But an Amiga has a RGB output with a bandwith up to 20 MHz. S-Video on an Amiga only result in crap, like LW radio compared to FM.
SNES can output all 3, and you can see the image quality difference easily enough RGB>S-video>composite>RF.
This is a pretty consistent observation except when systems exploit weaknesses to do the impossible.
Several consoles use dithering to fake transparency.
Due to blurring of adjacent pixels this looks fine on composite, but RGB completely breaks the illusion.
And NTSC artifact colours allow say, a CGA card to output 16 colour graphics on composite, but often only 4 colours on RGB...
Still... RGB wins... Usually.
Yep. I bought an early c64 that only had composite out. I ended up selling it because I couldn’t stand the picture quality.
If you use a C64 with a 1702, or 1080 you can select the separate luma+chroma input using the 4 strand DIN cable (red+yellow+white+black). It was much improved.
CB Meeks -- I have to agree with you. The difference between Composite and S-Video is *very* noticeable to me.
To be clear, I'm talking *specifically* about the C64. There are other computers where S-Video sucks. (cough cough Amiga cough cough). But for the C-64, if you can do S-Video, that's definitely the way to go.
One monitor I might recommend would be a Sony PVM monitor because the have a lot of inputs including RGB composite s-video and some models I think support cga and they have a very nice picture although they can also be on the expensive side.
+CrudGamer1 Yeah those Sonys are ideal. Only reason I didn't go that route was price.
Hrm, kinda wish I'd kept my 1084S that I had as a kid. But on the flip-side there was a period of like 20 years there where I had zero interest in doing anything with it, so it's just as well I guess that I didn't hold onto it. Super-glad I have my 1701, though. Can't do everything that the 1084 could do but it is a really lovely old composite/s-video monitor.
Now, all these old standards (composite, S-video, CGA/digital RGB and Amiga-style analog RGB) all use the same monitor sync rates, right? All 15kHz, right? So shouldn't it be pretty simple to take, say, a big ol' Trinitron TV and adapt the digital RGB and analog RGB to the TV's component inputs?
I have this exact Magnavox monitor and I'm having a hard time finding the ttl. RGB cable for it.
You should've kept that Amiga 1000!! They are getting rare these days!
I used the money from it to buy an Apple IIGS, which is more my style. And I'm getting a lot more use out of that machine (in fact it is permanently on my desk).
The Sony GVM line does all that plus 31kHz ;)
You can't really go wrong with those Philips made monitors.
Old pro video monitors by Sony or JVC are excellent.
According to the 8 bit guy, you can drive an S-Video monitor with a Commodore 64 computer. They called it something else, and the cable is different, but the signals are identical.
Yes you can. You can from an Atari 8 bit computer as well. But you need an s-video monitor to do it :) That's the one thing the Magnavox monitor I have doesn't support, but my main goal here was just to get a monitor that supports all classic computers, more or less, not a monitor that supports all possible standards. A Commodore 1084 has everything my monitor has and S-video, but it also costs quite a bit more, usually.
what i noticed is the Magnavox Monitor on the Tandy 1000 that you are showing is Practally Identical as the Commodore 1902A Monitor as I Owned One .. thanks for showing
gona.mactar.hu/Commodore/monitor/Commodore_1902A.jpg
Magnavox made various monitors for Commodore, including the 1084 and 1902A. They can be massive bargains as a result, because not many people know that Magnavox themselves sold the identical monitor. You just have to know the equivalent model, because the differences between Magnavox models are the inputs and dot pitch.
I recently picked up a Tandy CM-5 on e-Bay for about $60 US before shipping, to go with my Tandy 1000HX. I'm working on restoring it now (just age-related issues, such as yellowing on the case, replacing caps, whatnot). The better buy would have been a CM-11, but those are even harder to come by, since people don't really like to get rid of them. If you ever happen to get ahold of an EGA monitor, never get rid of it.
BlackEpyon i have a CM-11 that came with a Tandy 1000TX which was obviously an estate pickup since it smelled like an old widows house. It was in perfect condition and I’m so glad to own it as I’m a huge Tandy fan. I suffered with the CM-5 in the 1980s but my eyes are getting bad and need the CM-11. Get one in a pack if you can find it. It’s a gem.
I've got a Hewitt-Rand data monitor (high-res color EGA), with nice dot pitch and good focus. Even has an amber "text mode" (button on the front next to the power), but the squeal is something nasty... The CM-5 sounds a lot better, but, yes, the dot pitch sucks. Not bad for games, but sucks for text.
Even harder to find would be that damn RS-232 PLUS card. I had to bodge together a ribbon adapter to get an ISA serial/parallel card in there, cause Tandy couldn't be bothered to use an ISA riser like everybody else. For the first time in 30 years, my HX now has a Microsoft compatible mouse!
Didn't know about this Magnavox variant. Pretty cool
Another video standard that most of the 1084 monitor support and that is important for older computers, is monochrome! it's a different standard than composite. Plugging a monochrome video signal in a composite NTSC/PAL input results in a picture that's fuzzier on text and a bit noisy. Vrsus monochrome where is gonna come out crystal clear
I'll have to disagree with you regarding s-video looking no better than composite : going from composite to s-video is actually the biggest leap in performance up the video signal ladder. s-video is WAY crisper! it's actually as crisp as RGB. but there's some color/chroma errors which prevents it to have colors as accurate as RGB. But it'S still a great video signal
Ah, the dilemma of old displays.
I had 2 SVGA Monitors and a CRT tv that I had no choice but to leave behind when I moved countries (worse, nobody wanted them so they ended up on the dump).
The TV in particular I miss because while I have another now from the same company, possibly even using the same tube...
The one I left behind had RGB scart, and the one I have here is composite only.
Given I live in PAL territories, RGB scart is a great benefit for retro systems.
But alas, while common in Europe, such TV's are very rare here, even though it is still PAL territory...
Ah well...
I keep trying to think of a way to build a suitable replacement for CRT displays using modern parts, but I can't ever seem to really come up with one.
Given they likely use the same tubes it does make me wonder if my TV could be modded to work with SCART somehow...
But I'm reluctant to open a CRT television...
I can only imagine how much worse this problem would be with old computers;
Televisions are at least semi-standardised...
Yes, it seems like you guys had RGB worked out a lot better than we did over here, with a standardized SCART connector. We had no standard so every computer and game console had a different RGB implementation and connector. Even on the monitor I talk about here, I can use basically any computer but I would need to make cables for a lot of them. (Not difficult, just time consuming and annoying.)
I probably wouldn't try to modify a TV either, although some CRT monitors don't seem that hard to work on. You just need to really make sure you discharge the capacitors first. Some CRT's have separate I/O boards that you can just take out and work on without having to worry about touching the tube itself.
im desperately trying to get a commode 64 breadbin to work on a standard crt vga monitor i think its a lots cause
There are converters now that allow modern monitors to be used with older computers too. These allow the older standards to be converted to VGA, DVI, and even HDMI outputs.
+Stephen Hinkle It depends on the signal. There's no converter for CGA, for example (and there really can't be) - if you want to use something like a Tandy 1000 or original IBM PC, you need a CGA monitor.
Modern Classic actually there is www.mikesarcade.com/estore/datasheets/GBS-8200-booklet.pdf
Different type of CGA :) www.vcfed.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-49869.html
CGA in classic computers is TTL RGB. Arcade "CGA" is analog RGB.
This one, however, might work: www.aceinnova.com/en/products/industrial-video-converter-x2vga-from-cga-ega-mda-hercules-ttl-to-vga/
As you see, though, it's quite a bit more expensive than just buying a monitor :)
BBC 'B' I want one and the Archimedes..BBC was way ahead of it's time..But very hard to get in the US
did not find a single monitor that can handle all my needed standards, but i found a setup with only two crt monitors, that can handle them all. It´s a combination of the nec multisync 3d (for MDA,Hercules,CGA,EGA,(S)VGA, Atari high, c128 and amiga rgb) and the commodore 1084 (composite, svideo, c128 and amiga rgb). with only two crts i can handle all of them.
the c64 does have a matching monitor. which also has the 3 cinch input (as the c64 does not output real cvbs composite video, it outputs luma and chroma) the Commodore 1702 is what they were sold with (well, seperately, but in the same shop and at the same time ;) (at least as far as the brown breadbins goes). same color as the rest of the c64 stuff, compatible inputs (the c64 3 cinch luma/chroma/audio connection is at the back) the 2 connectors at the front are normal cvbs for 'anything else'. the fact that the c64 displays 'something' if you only connect one of the outputs to a cvbs input doesn't mean that it actually outputs cvbs :P it's actually more like the s-video connections.
The early C-64's use the same 5-pin din as the Atari and only output composite. Anything produced after around the first year has a different DIN with more pins and supports both composite and Luma+Chroma (aka S-Video ish).
@@glenndoiron9317 s-video-ish as the timing is off a bit to what it should be to be actual s-video. same goes for the monitors that go along with it. but it's close enough :P
Commodore monitors had Digital RGB, because C128 could work in that mode, offering 80 column mode with higher quality fonts.
For PCs you really don't need it. CGA and early Tandy 1000 had also a composite output. The only reason to use real CGA is special case of composite artificial colors modes. Some early CGA games used patterns that allowed for effective displaying 16-colors on screen with 160x200 resolution. There are even less TANDY/PCjr games that don't have EGA/VGA support.
The easiest way is to get a cheap VGA card that have BIOS compatible with 8086 and 286 CPUs. With VGA you can use any modern monitor with D-SUB input. You can even buy new ones with that port.
Digital RGB is a very simple protocol. You could quite easily make an emulator using Arduino or even Raspberry Pi that would output analog RGB (Arduino) or HDMI output (Rasbperry).
There was a big demand for those monitors few years ago, because they were were handy for people working with microcontrollers. It was very easy to add a code that would display debug data. Many custom designs used those monitors. It's the reason why there are LCD monitors with digital RGB on the market. Now there are abundance of LCD displays of various sizes that are easy to use with microcontrollers or singleboard computers.
Colecovision only had RF, so the ADAM expansion module for it lacked RF. The regular ADAM had composite.
There's a modern RGB mod for Colecovisions and the TI-99 4/A. It's named something like the "F18". It's an FPGA implementation of the old TI graphics chip they both used with extra tricks added to it [like RGB out]....
From 1985 ($350 at the time) I still have this Sears (actually Sanyo) 4084. It was offered for the PCJr so it has composite and CGA inputs. It also has a vertical compression (a button) in CGA mode that makes it appear sharper in 80 col mode. It was a TV, helpful in that you can use it with a Atari 400 / 2600. Here's more info: books.google.com/books?id=hy4EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dq=sears+13%22+4084+tv/monitor&source=bl&ots=_FVYnvIqvS&sig=sVrOxAWBS05cXGqI6vhBRyv8CgY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjr_8Gh7pfaAhUF2oMKHUpNCrAQ6AEIejAD#v=onepage&q=sears%2013%22%204084%20tv%2Fmonitor&f=false
That magnavox is a great looking monitor. Wish I never sold my old Sears multi input monitor. Trying to buy a Sony pvm - impossible. :(
I’ve owned many beautiful trinitrons too, but they are very fragile and don’t last long these days in working condition. One bump and they’re toast.
Great channel, just subbed and have been going thru your vids. My solution is to use my current tower with a USB RGB capture stick. This way I can use the real estate (which in an apartment is at a premium) for the most I can get.
Any french TV set will do the job with the powerfull SCART or PERITEL input connector.
The Amiga is the easiest computer in the history of computers to set up; how you failed in that endeavour merits its own episode! Namely, to set up an Amiga, all one has to do is power it on - the OS is in ROM, and it's ready to be used immediately. The Amiga family of computers is one of the most powerful, versatile and expandable computers ever designed - there are Amigas with 514 MB of memory now, running 64-bit MC68080 processors with AMMX extensions and 128 GB microSD cards or SSD's being used as hard drives...
I got a retro tandy 2500sx/33 hd now it has the tandy cga hookup just like your 1000 their but after doing some searching found a site that described a solution to get vga outta this plug went into great detail showing diagrams of the pin outs and said the one pin that is not on the tandy does nothing a extra of sorts and said remove it having a bag of vga cables I decided to test it and it works turns out the tandy graphics chipset is supervga or vga plainly not sure which forgot now but at any rate puts out a vga along with ega and cga all thru a vga cable I like my flat led tv has a better picture with tighter pixels and the tandy looks great on it even got my laser mouse working on it with a ps2-usb converter plug go figure .
To my knowledge -- and I'm sure someone might correct me if I'm wrong, as it has been 30 years since I've dealt with these monitors, so it's possible my memory may be faulty -- the only difference between the Magnavox RGB Monitor 40 and the Magnavox RGB Monitor 80 is the dot-pitch. That's the space between the phosphor dots. It is not a different "resolution" per-se. The phosphor dots have less space between them, and therefore smaller details (like 80-column color text in Deskmate, for example) don't look as chunky.
And I had a Commodore 1084 monitor back in the day... I sold it in, oh, I think '99 or 2000, because I got rid of all my old Commodore stuff... Couple of breadbin C64s, couple of 1541 floppies, even an SFD-1001 floppy!! And that 1084 monitor. :-( Oh well. Who knew retro-computing would ever become a thing, right?!
As far as I know, you're right - in those days, a lot of companies sold either "40 column" or "80 column" monitors, designed to display text at either of those "resolutions". This is the 40 column version of this monitor, and the RGB 80 is the 80 column version. Just tighter dot pitch. The 80 column version should be the better monitor, assuming all else is equal, but they're even harder to find than the 40's.
I use this monitor to display 80 column text all the time, so that's an artificial number used for marketing purposes, but the RGB Monitor 80 would probably look a bit better doing it.
As time went on, monitors were still differentiated by dot pitch but we stopped referring to it by "columns" and started using the actual dot pitch measurements. I remember that for a 15" VGA monitor, you were supposed to look for something less than .28mm. I don't know what the actual dot pitch is of the RGB Monitor 40 or 80, but I have a feeling it's close to the PCjr monitor's pitch of .43mm.
I wish I got the A1000 from him!!!
or just use monitors intended for security camera systems. although they usually don't show all of the border without some adjustment. additional advantage: they're square and you can stack them up on and next to each other. metal cases too so they're shielded and won't interfere when placed right on top or next to each other like the plasticy things do, you can simply buy them brand new so they're not 40 years old and won't explode in your face or put your house on fire, only composite input tho. no luma/chroma. and usually some bnc to cinch converters needed but who cares. they're like 1 dollar per 100 anyway. actually. security camera monitors are qualitatively a lot better than anything ever sold for 'microcomputers'. and about the same price anyway. (and no they won't all of a sudden stop making those, as they need to provide replacements for setups that will still be in use some 50 years from now, as such installations usually only get replaced when the building they're in gets replaced ;)
I've collected classic video game consoles since 1975 with Atari's Pong, and personal computers since 1981.
I'm trying to do something a little different. Over the years, I've realized PC emulators not only faithfully can replace my dozens of retro consoles & computers, but often have a lot of advantages.
I've already tested a number of emulators on my uncommon CRT RGB arcade monitors, and they look great. Pretty much as I would have expected with a classic CRT monitor. I also have two working Amiga 1080 monitors, which I'd love to connect my laptop via either VGA or HDMI and convert the signal to display my emulators, such as Amiga, C-64, Atari 8 bit, Atari 2600, etc on one of my 1080 monitors instead.
Does anyone know of an adapter to convert VGA or HDMI to display with the RGB connection of an Amiga 1080 monitor? If so, please respond.
There must be some way to do it. I can live with the games & programs emulated. I'm not so picky that, the clock cycles must be 100% spot on. They are so close, I really don't care. What does bother me is the LCD screens just don't look anything like the CRT's did. Not even close. So this is what I'd like to do. I've already proven it to myself that these PC emulators do look great on a CRT. It's a little awkward to always have to play them out of my arcade cabinets in the basement. Plus if my arcade monitor dies, I have no backup where as I have two of these working Amiga monitors. I sold 3 out of my 4 Amigas. I'm keeping one, but I prefer the emulator. AGA, processor acceleration,, ect. Apple ][ programs that didn't work on my ][ Plus, Mocking board support, etc. Atari 2600, C-64, Atari 8 bit images never looked better than in RGB! So anyway, this is what I'm looking to do if anyone can help. Thanks
n8goulet , if you are looking to connect your pc to your rgb 15khz monitor, you can try a few things...try crt emudriver, allows you to convert your graphics card to output to 15khz monitors, you would need a vga to scart cable or standard vga depending on your monitor input. Just google crt emu driver...else grab a raspberry pi and rgbpi cable/OS...goes into a scart monitor. I use this for my Phillips cm8833, has an Amiga emulator in there too.
@@shafeq786786 Thanks for the suggestions. I'll look into that. It's a standard Amiga monitor connector. Bit different than a VGA connector.
Too bad you used a 2GS instead of an Amiga...I have a 1084 and 1084S, but still the best monitor would be a true multi sync monitor..I owned in the past. Probably one of the best monitors that I gave away 15 years ago was an Amiga 1080, which had an amazing display. I was an 8 bit Atari, ST, Amiga guy, but I also worked for Radio Shack in the day and most of the Tandy monitors were simply garbage, but they were so expensive...actually everything was pricey for what you got. Also, I believe the 1084s supported both NTSC and Pal; nevertheless, the display is so grainy.
I did have an Amiga; sold it for my IIGS. I wish I kept the 1084S I had with it, though.
A monitor sold in the North American market that does CVBS (Composite), Y/C (S-video), Digital RGB (RGBi), and Analog RGB? How about the Sony PVM-1390? Add a Sony TU-1041U tuner and it will do RF TV too.
Here in Europe where RGB inputs through scart was available we are kind of lucky since most TVs when used with the RGB input gives a very clear image. I have an Amiga monitor though, but mostly because it has good controls for adjusting the image position. Something that TVs mostly lack. I do not own any RGBI devices but it seems that you can convert it to analogue RGB without much problem. This adapter for example: gglabs.us/node/2012 so as long as you have a monitor with analogue RGB input you are pretty much good.
I also disagree that these CRT monitors are in any way unreliable. They are of course old and worn. If you buy one today you should swap the capacitors pretty much immediately and it should last. On my monitor my flyback transformer also gave upp but is was easy to replace. As long as you have a little electronics knowledge these monitors are easy to repair. If you don't want to open them tough they can probably be frustrating to rely on :-)
One computer that does not work fully on these is a Sharp X68000 because you need a monitor with also works with 24 and 31 KHz resolutions for certain games and applications. You can never have one product that does it all it seems :-) But for most computers and consoles these are great!
Atari 800XL doesn't have S-Video, only the Atari 800 supports S-Video. I got lucky and found someone selling an Amiga 500 with a 1084S-d Monitor that supports everything, but I still prefer to own original equipment with my classic collection.
will the dell ultrasharp 2001fp, 2005fpw, 2408wfp, etc. work with composite/svideo work with apple II, c64, atari 800, etc.
If it has S-video, it should work with the C64 and Atari 800/XL/XE. Whether it works with the Apple II is a crapshoot - Apple II's have what looks like a composite output but it's at best an "Apple composite" output. You may not get color. The real problem is CGA-based computers like early IBM PC's and compatibles, as well as RGB-based computers like the Amiga and Atari ST (though they could be made to work with adapters).
Bored curious, is the connector at 8:46 compatible with the genesis/megadrive?
No. Same connector, but different pinout.
I recently got a commodore monitor clone for 20€ on ebay plus 9€ shipping. Does TTL, analog/digital RGB, composite, but no svideo. But it has a monochrome mode.
Sounds very similar to my Magnavox. Could have the same internals. I don't think there are a lot of monitors out there with that exact set of inputs.
It's very similar to some of these Commodore 1084 Philips branded Monitors, the back plate with the connections is the same, including that problem of the broken power switch that seems to be common with those monitors. It seems that only the outer shell and branding is different. I haven't yet made an DB9 adapter to use this monitor for my Atari ST, so no idea how well it will perform in high res mode. Super Nintendo and such is great however. It was listed simply as "old monitor" with no indication what it really is. Lucky score indeed.
One kind of monitor that I still really want to get is an amber monochrome TTL monitor. Simply because they look so cool and would go great with my XT.
Btw, have you seen this Commodore C65, yes 65, that was sold on ebay recently?
I've heard of the C65 but never saw one for sale. Just looked that up in the sold listings on Ebay - yowza! Somebody can buy a new car.
maybe not many, but there were a few manufactures that made them. some had switches on tge back to select between TTL and analog, some had the switches on the front.
I got a 1084 monitor along with my Amiga 2000 in 1988. It is long since dead, though it did serve me well for about ten years.
I don't miss CRTs at all.
you guys are crazy! talking about composite n old ass specs lmao I mean it's cool but it's kind of funny when it is 2017.
I personally would just play emulators n at best get a buckling springs keyboard then I'm set =) casual style!
Yes, I think most of us old-timers are familiar with emulators too. I have other videos on them as well, but I prefer playing on the real hardware.
i really need a monitor to use my Tandy 1000 RL
SVID is just composite and sound in the same plug, right? So no advantage to using it other than convenience?
Never mind - separate black and white channels. Higher color integrity, lower resolution.
+Roland Anderson Actually separate luma and chroma. It's potentially better but depends on the source. Also, a good comb filter in the display (which separates luma and chroma in a composite signal), can make composite look almost indistinguishable from svideo.
It also depends on the monitor on how good S video looks. there were some cheap monitors that actually combined the signals back together so there was NO advantage it just was there as a way to connect another cable to it.
For analog RGB, try a game console like a Super Nintendo, Sega Genesis, Master System, Playstation...all output RGB natively.
You would need to make some custom cables but it would work. I keep meaning to try making one for my genesis just haven't gotten around to it. If anyone out there has any advice on making one I would greatly appreciate it.
6:55 are you sure that's your Commodore 64 connected to that monitor? Looks exactly like the Atari 8bit version of Pac-man.
Quite sure. The A8 version has thinner maze lines and its sounds are slightly lower pitched. Here's a comparison on real hardware (emulation is never accurate): th-cam.com/video/m3DTJr1kpeo/w-d-xo.html
Atarisoft made games for the VIC-20, C64, Apple II, TI-99 4/A, IBM PC, IBM PC jr., the Colecovision, and the Intellivision. And their version of Pac-Man for the other systems looked very similar to the Atari 8-bit/5200 version.
Is this good for a PC-9801?
You know your an old nerd when you remember MGA,CGA,EGA,and VGA. 5 1/4 floppies and 1.2 floppies. Nostalgia.
Robert Blakemore, you missed MCGA... But I guess that was a Tandy only thing, right?
Yep-Forgot about that one. Oh- Orange plasma monitors as well.
Don't forget PGC, it was like EGA but with much more color. Our CAD software running on an HP Vectra had this. Late 80's and suuper 'spensive!
Don't forget 8" drives and hercules video cards
Visicalc...123...AsEasyAs..Jazz..
Regret not repairing my 1084 monitor. Trashed it - bummer.