It really is unfortunate. I'm not alone in this for sure. I tell myself that they are backups and they are but there's probably no way all of them will break.
Plus if you’re sensitive to flicker, you can double the screen refresh rate (if the horizontal refresh is high enough in KHz), at least on a PC. Comes at the cost of some image cross-talk, but I’d imagine it would still look better than VRR on an LCD display. Personally, I’d like to try that at 240P, and then pair it with AMD’s AFMF (which while isn’t great with 3D games, makes 2D scrolling look smoother) to further smoothen how retro games look, would be a really cool thing to experiment with and see how it affects latency.
line doubling is the traditional compatibility mode for VGA monitors to older signals that are below the minimum scanrate of VGA, so e.g. 200p becomes 400p
Great to see this video up! I've been recommending scalers+VGA for years, and more recently as a perfect output for MiSTer (enable doublescan and off you go with perfect refresh rates and 2:1 scaling). Razor sharp images, amazing colour, no lag. Can't argue with that.
Exactly what I do as well: scandoubler with a MiSTer to a VGA CRT. Unfortunately it doesn't work with the PS1 core, and the upcoming Saturn and Jaguar cores probably won't play nice either.
I am surprised no one has hit you with the 'that's not legit 240p 60hz, that's image doubling 240p at 120hz' argument. I have not seen it with my own naked eye balls but from videos that I have seen I would be very happy with it because it looks incredible in my opinion. It makes the picture brighter too.
Cool thing about VGA monitors, is that they support high refresh rates out of the box, and this is not only a good thing for PC games, but that also makes it possible to achieve native console resolutions. Through NVIDIA control panel, I'm able to create new resolutions, like, 256x224@130Hz, and many NES / SNES emulators that I've used recognize that, and play the games at fullscreen with true scanlines, so no need for filters or gamma boost. Sure, the refresh rate is not even integer with the usual 60Hz, but those consoles already use odd refresh rates that require some sort of v-sync for it not to judder / tear the image on any PC monitor, so it plays fine on such a high refresh. It would be cool if it there was a device that allowed to double the vertical refresh signal, instead of just line doubling. 320x240@120Hz uses the same 31KHz signal as 640x480@60Hz, so maybe it isn't that hard to just double the refresh on a VGA monitor while maintaining the same line count that a console would usually send.
It's always a shame that 15 kHz was thrown out the window during those IBM days 480p became a thing. So many dos games ended up 240p line-doubled and no scanlines. Of course DOOM at 240p..... eheh-heh-heh!
I bought a 1995 view sonic 15s recently and long story short the guy who sold it to me told me it was his moms who recently passed at 102 years old, 1 owner and shed play solitaire 4 hours a day
I still really wish VGA monitors could handle 15khz and component signals since it would make finding an all in one solution for CRT gaming way easier than looking for rare 480P RGB monitors or using converters.
My 31khz VGA CRT did something weird today that this reminded me of, it suddenly started accepting resolutions lower than its usual minimum. Previously, anything under 640x480 just gave me a “frequency too low” error on the monitor, but today it suddenly stopped giving that warning, at all. So I can transmit any resolution I want to it below 640x480 now with some careful settings. I’ve found it’s most useful for GBA games, I can emulate them and perfectly integer scale it to 480x320, and it looks amazing on my CRT, the scanlines are really well spaced and it looks lovely and bright. But I also managed to run emulators at 320x240 (I needed to do some tinkering in Nvidea settings to make this work, it only seems to understand signals with at least 450x300 pixels, but if I specify the signal so it has 320x240 active pixels and 480x320 total pixels, it just only displays the 320x240, and it’s easy to show it on fullscreen with some adjustment, and it looks really good and super sharp, with proper scanlines that look as thick as a PVM, it’s really impressive, but I personally don’t like that look very much and I find scanlines like that give me eye strain, so I mainly stick with 320x240+ resolutions. If I try to go below 450x300 total pixels (so far, I keep finding new ways around the restrictions.) it just shuts down the monitor, but as long as the total pixels stay at that level I can technically feed it any amount of active pixels, but with numbers less than half of total pixels tends to cause some weirdness, running it at 240x160 for native resolution GBA for example technically worked, but it didn’t fit the screen very well, the image was too small and in the corner, and even with the settings I couldn’t quite get it to fill the screen, and in this mode the scanlines are so enormous that it looks awful to me, I much prefer to line double it with integer scaling and then display it that way. Sadly it doesn’t seem to have actually become a 15khz monitor, but it’s been a lot of fun to mess with. 24khz arcade games look great on it, and it’s awesome to play Model 1, 2 and 3 games at native resolution, and since they are below 800x600 I can run them at 120hz too for flicker free gaming without extra judder from using 85hz or something.
Back in the day, I used to hook up my SNES, Genesis, and Saturn to my VGA monitor with the XRGB2. Fell into the RGB hole then and never left. Glad there are so many great new options now.
I believe you are correct. The NES Zapper is just a much more primitive lightgun. It only looks for a flash and the NES only cares about the timing. Any lightgun with an aiming reticle is using the video signal's analog timing itself-that's why they have to piggyback off compositive/luma/whatever line sync is on-to figure out where on the screen it is being pointed. The very nature of the deinterlacing being done is going to make that not work.
I've been telling people for years that a good quality vga monitor can still beat out many LCD monitors out there. While not currently in use, 1 have 2 21" HP Trinitron CRTs (yes, HP screen, says trititron on the chasis) for the day that I decide to move them over to the game room for more than just the Dreamcast. Also have 2 component to VGA adapters (a Vdigi and a Key Digital) which were highly regarded back in the early 2000s
Gamecube games look fantastic on a CRT monitor at 480p! It's amazing how much better 480p looks on a CRT compared to an LCD television. I didn't like 240p through RetroTINK though, even with scanlines. It just doesn't look authentic enough. My monitor's brightness isn't powerful enough to compensate for the dimming effect of the scanlines so there's zero bloom with the visible lines.
VGA monitors are great for xbox 360 as it natively supports VGA and has official high quality vga cables for low cost. The original xbox is good as well once you flash a VGA bios to it. The VGA bios turns the xbox into a 480p sync on green signal. Most VGA crts support sync on green. Unlike PS2 there is no bullshit. It just always works.
In my experience only the dreamcast light gun games work on a VGA CRT. Still a bit of a challenge to calibrate the lightgun and get it to the same accuracy as composite on CRT. The vga out of the DC looks amazing for the House of the Dead and Death Crimson OX
The only trouble I've ever had with Dreamcast lighgun games is with a bad gun. Once I got a good one, they work on all CRT's, in all supported resolutions.
@@RetroRGB thanks for the quick reply (What lightguns do you use?) I've tested the madcatz which is meh and the star fire light blaster which is better imho. Its noticable on the corners and perimeter of the screen in calibration where aiming is kinda jumpy. So basically 1 or 2 bosses in the House of the Dead. My Sony Wega Trinitrons even the ones at 60hz are also less accurate than a Panasonic Tau CRT I've tested. Maybe I need to get a new light gun?
7:15, you can get around this by adding an external scanline generator into the chain. Then you can have both scanlines and the smoothing in N64 games if you really wanted to.
Just search for "Monitor" without "CRT" and sort by lowest price. I got a Lacie electron blue for 20€ and that's a monitor used in photography with a Mitsubishi Diamondtron tube.
When I play Rastan (SEGA Master System) on my consumer CRT, the clouds look rounded. And I mean rounded, not blurry. When I play them on an emulator, even with "scanlines" turned on, they still look pixellated. No one can appreciate what CRTs do to hide pixels until they see it in person. It's a special kind of anti-aliasing.
Use the emulator retroarch and the shader CRT royale filter. It creates that anti aliasing look on all those pixels. I actually use the ntsc svideo preset and it looks very authentic to a CRT through emulation.
@@Domarius64 It does require 1440p and above to look right. I also use an overlay to give an image of a CRT. I use one that has a reflection on the screen for added effect.
@@jason160uk ahh, thanks for the heads up. I don't have a 4k screen but I knew we might get there again one day with enough improvement in resolution and colour to simulate it in a more nuanced way :)
@@jason160uk I might want to hit you up for tips, it's really rare to see someone interested in recreating CRT accurately. Let me know if you have a Discord or something you want to share.
Would love to know the technical details of the Hdmi to vga converter. Is there a full list of the resolutions it can do somewhere? Amazon listing only mentions 720p and 1080p. Ideally i want to do 2048x1536 @80hz or at least 1600x1200.
This is great Bob, but I feel there is a missed opportunity to Clearly show how the connection goes from RGB or component to VGA. Do each of those devices you mention output HDMI and then you use the HDMI to VGA adapter you link in the description? Thanks!
I went into great detail about there here: th-cam.com/video/7VOsOuQ5mhM/w-d-xo.html There's no "missed opportunity", I just didn't want to waste people's time by showing it all over again.
6:00 is that a slot mask?? I thought monitors were all dot mask (sharper to look closer to the screen) and that slot mask were only use on consumer CRT TVs.
9:10 it may be the light gun itself and not the games. It can be screwy I did some testing with my both my NES (composite) and Original Xbox (component and composite) with the Retro Tink 2x and 2x multi (both with up to date firmware) through a HDMI to VGA dongle, on my Samsung SyncMaster 753DF The Silent Scope Light Rifle for the original Xbox will work (it says supports HD on the box) but the the madcatz blasters don't work properly. It warns about lightguns not working in 480p in the instruction booklet. House of the Dead 3 supports 480p and pass through will work with the SSLR but the House of the Dead 2 won't work with the system set to 480p in its settings. Yet if you ahut off 480p in the video settings and let the Tinks scal 480i to 480p and the lightgun works well enough for both. I still need to test Starsky and Hutch. But the the only other official lightgun game is Silent Scope Complete and they managed to screw up the lightgun code so badly that you have to jack up the in game brightness to around 80% for the game to track where you are aiming the gun, even on standard consumer CRT. I still need to test the Tink 5x aswell.
I had some stuff I was doing with the ossc and my vga monitor some time before I started making suggestions that pc crt's are an alternative to the pvm/bvm line. Now I think they're referring to them as "Poor man's bvm" But yeah with ossc, 3x, 4x, 5x, etc can gain even better yields in quality and surprisingly there's a few that can handle the other interlaced modes better as well enough to compete with the tink. Btw, shadowmask lines are pretty neat like a stain glass window vs aperture grille. Get the more glowy shots and they stand out!
One other thing I may be considering a quick upload test on ossc 5x on an led panel just to show how nicely it competes wih the bvm. You can bring up line counts all you want, but in many cases, there seems as if there's no lines at all. Just those razor thin custom scanlines that show we're a step away from total preservation until panel tech catches up properly.
@@voltz15 Hey, I'd like to ask the hdmi to vga adapter that you're using so you can output 1600x1200 (OSSC x5). I believe Tendak one is not compatible. I will try with the Portta one soon. Thanks.
Great video as always! I was really hoping you'd mention 3x laced mode of the OSSC. 480i x3 is, in my opinion, the best way to play PS2 etc. And the odd line tripled interlaced signal mostly won't work on flat panel TVs. The resulting fine altering scanlines are perfect for a high-res VGA monitor!
I don't think VGA monitors would accept any kind of interlaced signal at all. That's an interesting thought though...I'd definitely like to try it out!
@@RetroRGB well "VGA" monitors would not, if we're strictly talking about monitors capable of 640x480 max. But if the monitor syncs to a high enough scanrate to support 1024x768 it would also support 720p and therefore 1440i. It works very well on a Sony F520 for example. I remember testing 1440i with my D32 as well, but that signal was generated by a Groovymame PC, not by an OSSC. Yes, if you still have everything setup, throw a PS2 game in and test the 3x laced mode :) it looks way better than Bob deinterlacing, IMO.
@@RetroRGB Funnily enough - I've tested this on at least two CRT monitors. A HP P1110 (that I can't further test on atm - repairs pending. I'll need to sub to your Patreon and ask for advice there), and a LG Studioworks 900B. They respect interlacing as long as it's over 31kHz. I should test with my other monitors, but I'm in quite a cramped household at the moment.
Yeah I was really surprised myself when I tested x3 on my Gateway and line-doubled interlaced was working perfectly! It's strange cause I tried this with my LG led and that was the only mode that wasn't recognized. Go figure! The other x3, x4 ,x5 modes for 240p content are great once you start adding vertical scanlines and adjusting them with hybrid. The other line doublers and scalers totally lack this feature, so I had to push for this to be included!
I’m not saying I would have been able to fix it when I was 13... But knowing what I know now there’s no way I would have given up the Amiga monitor my brother and I used with our SNES when it broke down. Instead of buying or sharing a TV (still only had 2 in the whole house at the time) we used that (I think it was 15”) when our family switched over to a PC and got a whole new setup. The picture was soooooo crisp on that thing.
I FEEL your pain. My Amiga's 1084s died in like 2005, and I let that thing go way too easily. Probably could've had it fixed up with a little bit of effort, but I didn't know better back then!!
PSA: I got the Tendak adapter advertised in this video. Unfortunately it doesn't work too well. The picture flickered and cut off intermittently and sometimes these lines and other artefacts appeared on screen. I tested it on two displays and two cables so I'm pretty sure the adapter is the culprit. I found no rhyme or reason for what caused the issues so it's probably random, but resolution or image mode changes seemed to trigger it sometimes. I recommend reading the 1-2 star reviews at Amazon. I'll probably try a adapter with external power because one major issue could be that the HDMI isn't supplying enough power for it.
Such a great video, I can tell you put a lot of work into it. I was looking for a VGA monitor and the video is super helpful and gives a good insight in what they can do. Thanks Bob!!
So if I'm understanding the full setup here properly - Bob is feeding RGB out of a console outputting 240p (presumably a SNES) via SCART -> into a device for upscaling (line-doubling) to 480p -> outputting digital HDMI from there -> into a VGA adapter or lag-free VGA converter attached to the VGA monitor. So with a native 240p console output, I understand the need to upscale to 480p, since VGA monitors generally don't accept 15khz signal (SD, 480i and under). I'm interested in playing Gamecube games in 480p on a VGA monitor instead of hunting down an HD CRT. Then with a console outputting native 480p like a Gamecube or PS2 via YPbPr, is the OSSC/RetroTink necessary? Or is it possible to use only a Component>VGA adapter/converter to change the pinout? Perhaps a sync stripper is needed to convert YPbPr's Sync-on-Luma to VGA's HV sync?
For Gamecube, all you'd need is something like a Carby and a cheap HDMI to VGA converter: retrorgb.link/cheapdac insurrectionindustries.com/product/carby-v2/ For PS2, you'd probably want the GBS Control, since it will scale 480i and pass through 480p.
Man I still love that intro, it's so satisfying Also, I should break out my dell trinitron monitor and try some of these options. It looks outstanding on my desktop PC, having no issues with even 1600x1200, looking clear as could be
I wanted to do this, but there is one issue that's not mentionned. If you are in europe, use pal consoles and your scaler doesn't change the refresh rate from 50hz to 60hz, most VGA monitors (LCD and CRT) won't be able to display it. I tried to connect my RGB N64 to different monitors and tv using an OSSC and a cheap HDMI to VGA adapter. (The OSSC doesn't change the refresh rate from 50hz to 60hz.) With my: - 4:3 19" Dell LCD, it didn't work. - 42" inc TV (it has a vga input), it didn't work. - 40" LCD Phillips PC monitor it worked. This is a high-end monitor. - old (late 90's) 14" CRT pc monitor, it worked but the image was heavely flickering. It was unbearable.
Bob, do 480p signal work with the GBS 8200? Here in Brazil it's the cheapest (and the only available) way to convert component video to VGA and I want to use Xbox and Wii on my CRT monitor.
Yes, 480p works great! I'll have more videos on GBS Control soon...just make sure to do the mod and not just use the GBS8200's regular firmware. The wifi modules required should be cheap too.
Great video! I just got a CRT VGA monitor and was trying to figured out the component to VGA path. I already own an OSSC, so using that with HDMI -> VGA converter seems like the way to go versus component -> VGA
My first upscaler experience was with a PlayStation 2 combined with a XRGB2plus hooked up to a Sony Trinitron VGA monitor back in 2002. It was impressive to see way back then. Thankfully there are more options for upscaling and conversion now. If you can find one cheap, the Micomsoft XRGB2 series is still a viable option for upscaling to standard VGA monitors. Keep them away from flat panels though.
What about this? I was thinking about a CRT HDTV with a retro PC passing a VGA signal to a VGA to HDMI converter. You can also use this TV's composite port to connect a console directly. How would it look?
As long as you're sending the HD CRT 480p, it'll be the exact same as what I showed in this video - Enable basic scalines and it'll look 480p. In my opinion, that's a great solution. Just keep in mind many HD CRT's add lag.
So with the GBS-Control and a decent CRT monitor you can have a really similar image to a pvm for a fraction of the price, i'm glad to know that. The days about dreaming of getting a framemeister are gone lol. Can't wait for the GBS video!
So, I would need a retrotink and a HDMI to VGA converter to get my retro consoles work on a PC CRT monitor. I have a Hewlett Packard Ergo 1024 and tried my Wii with a Component to VGA transcoder. The menu was fine but when I started a game the screen went "out of range". Is this why I need a retrotink product?
@@RetroRGB So there is impossible to play 480i games on a PC CRT monitor? So no luck for Pal games for the PS2 (rgb) with this setup as well? I thought that the scaler would scale the input source by itself to 480p so the CRT monitor can accept the signal..but I might have completely wrong on this...Or is it possible to get picture if using a retrotink 5x pro and have it set to 480p? Thank you for your answer, anyway! 😀
As PVMs are getting harder to find, I thought about using a VGA monitor instead. What’s the best way to get the signal from something like an OSSC or RetroTink into a VGA monitor? I thought there was the whole 15 kHz vs 31 kHz problem.
15 kHz and 240p are just doubled up to 31 kHz 480p vga and higher. Hdmi to vga adapters are under $20 these days. Even my Gateway accepts 480i passthru as line doubled 31 kHz (Mode 3). Who would have ever thought to see that on a pc display!
would a 480p signal through the passthrough of the RetroTink2x-Multiformat into a HDMI to VGA converter work? I have beautiful Bang & Olufsen consumer CRTs but they can't handle 480p unfortunately. so this would be a great option.
Did you notice how in the comparison shot of the GBS control there was "bleeding" of colors in between/in the scanlines? I guess it is signaling more voltage to the electron guns, but the result may be desirable as it may round out the graphics seen from a normal distance (and pleasing those who think scanlines look too prominent on these monitors).
Great video! I picked up a Dell 20” VGA CRT last week and I’m loving it with MiSTer. My other CRTs bother my wife, she can’t put up with the high pitched squeal, but she doesn’t hear anything with the VGA one. Now I can play on a CRT in the living room with her.
@@rat9625 I'm 27 and can still hear it. Of of my 22 yo friends came over and could not remember that whine from when they where younger and asked about it
I'd imagine it's the same. I run my low res stuff 480p and honestly you'd expect the same scanline width as well as the same line count. I think it's a bit funny because those pvm's/bvm's cost so much to produce, yet they just match the grade quality of computer crt's at the low end before resolutions start to jump. When you see your games x4, x5 their original resolution, it gets kinda crazy depending on how well the display handles them before they start running beyond their focus range. Maybe if you could mod the sony tubes for higher resolutions, then that's where we'll see the real comparison.
Yeah, a good CRT with a high resolution and refresh rate will blow away most "modern gamers". Playing a PC game at 2048*1536 @ 85hz on a high quality screen looks amazing. And if you need to lower the res for higher refresh/framerate that is no issue because CRTs have no native resolution. Every available resolution is nice and crisp. And you can easily find them that can do 120hz.
Would there be any lag (or any other drawbacks) using an OSSC line-doubler and deinterlacer for a game like Chrono Cross on a PVM or consumer CRT? Obviously on modern flat panels there's a delay as it switches between 240p and 480i.
Don't forget the game consoles with 31khz display modes can be hooked up to VGA using the correct cables and adapters. The Dreamcast works with VGA monitors for most of the library via VGA box or VGA cable adapters. Some games like Plasma Sword lack VGA compatibility. The PS2 works with VGA monitors, but it must be a slimline PS2 as they carry out power through the AV port (which the original PS2 models didn't have). The PS3/Wii VGA cable can play PS2 games on a VGA monitor, but will only work with 480p supported titles like Guilty Gear XX or Tekken 4. However, some games like DanceDanceRevolution X2 and Tekken 5 utilize special button codes that enable 480p mode for use on a VGA monitor. The Wii can be used on a VGA monitor via PS3/Wii VGA cable, but the Wii console's video output must be set to EDTV/HDTV (480p) settings. Most Wii games allowed 480p output, so it's VGA-friendly. Many GameCube games have a 480p display mode, so usually hitting the A button upon booting them up enables the appropriate display mode for the VGA monitor. Several 480i-only Wii and GameCube games like Sega Bass Fishing, Sakura Wars: So Long My Love, Target: Terror and Crazy Taxi won't work with this cable unless you use USB Loader GX or Nintendont to force 480p. Same said with Neo-Geo Virtual Console titles. Even certain GameCube games like the Dragon Ball Z Budokai duoligy don't allow 480p forcing, making those games VGA incompatible entirely. The Xbox is VGA supported since many games allowed 480p and 720p display modes. All you had to do is enable them and use an HDMI-to-VGA adapter once you get your Xbox HDMI adapter. The only downer is that non-progressive games like Marvel vs. Capcom 2 won't even work with the VGA monitors since most VGA monitors cannot take 15khz signals.
One ossc and everything's 480p vga standard! That generation missed out so much when the Dreamcast died and nothing was standardized to match it. Gunvalkyrie and Panzer Dragoon Orta.... Ohhhh Yeeeaaahhh...... (Top Hat Gameing man impersonation)
I guess I have a question in relation to using the OSSC as one of those options. It's my understanding that the OSSC can be a bit fiddly when it comes to anything above 2x modes depending on the console or the display, my question is at the very least does the 2X mode work on just about anything? Because I would like to get an OSSC say over a RetroTink 2X-Scart just to have a device that has a few different uses other than just 2X, but knowing that the 2X mode works with just about anything will give me some peace of mind with compatibility with say any capture card I might decide to use it with.
Your understanding is correct - There MIGHT still be compatibility issues with 480p (especially with SNES and NES), but there are far less than with all other modes.
Hi, what do I need to get an Image from a Radeon HD 9790 ghz edition to a video component crt tv? A dvi to component cable? Or do I need a "scaler"? Or converter or something like that. I want to play groovymame with it.
Best I ever saw was when I hooked up the Sega Dreamcast in VGA on a 19-inch Sony computer monitor. Played Code Veronica on it, and the guy that owned the computer said the graphics looked better than his PC games!
@@NirnBootMod You're making too much of a point on comparing the same game for your console vs pc war. Dreamcast games were pretty ahead of the curve in many areas back in 1999 and on their own terms they did so much to match quality levels one would have to buy a GeForce 3 card for. Games like SoulCalibur, Spawn, DOA2 opened a lot of eyes for gamers, but killing the Dreamcast and putting us back a few steps with regular av (and non-progressive YUV component) didn't help favors any. I use an ossc on those systems now with my vga setup and it's crazy how much of the best quality we missed. Gunvalkyrie and Panzer Dragoon Orta especially.
Dreamcast was such a great experience during it's time, but right now my vga is adapting the other non-vga consoles (via component) to get that near level of quality and it's a shame because they obviously look just as great, if not better when we got to Xbox.
I have 14 consoles from 3rd to 6th gen on an OSSC ---> HDMI-VGA ---> PC-CRT setup, but I don't put *lines* on the image because I don't want *lines* - am I missing something here?
That's 100% preference. I prefer to add the lines so it looks like I'm playing on a BVM in 240p, but that's up to you. If you like the way it looks as-is, enjoy it: You have a zero-lag setup, in the proper aspect ratio, with no worries about LCD motion blur :)
Great video, but one thing I can't wrap my head around is how you're connecting the console with VGA? Using the Retrotink for example, what's the additional adapter being converting the cables to VGA? Cheers!
I'm confused. My PS2 menu won't show up with retrotink and vga adapter (I'm using a HDD/FMB) but if I load a game on my other monitor and switch to the adapter it shows up. Are the menu and game different resolutions or something? and the n64 showed up straigh away. FIXED: it was the menu screen for some reason, used opl settings to jump straight to that, bypassing menu screen.
hey man I really loved this video thanks for the in depth overview!! Im one of the VERY few idiots that want to use the a VGA monitor in the specific use case that you mentioned at the end of the video: NES and using a light gun! (@9:45) I see that youre using the retrotink but I see that you've got a SCART cable connected to it. is your NES modded for SCART or am I missing something there?
Thanks! Yes, that console has a NESRGB installed. It’ll work the same with a composite video cable and a RetroTINK 2X Pro…but obviously won’t be as clear.
Another great thing about VGA CRTs is that with RetroArch, you can plug one into a modern PC and with some work you can get TRUE 240p resolution out of the monitor at 120hz. On Linux (With an X11 Desktop environment/Window Manager), you can literally just open RetroArch, enable the CRT Switchres option, choose the 31khz option, and you are good to go! most cores will properly set the monitor's resolution to the original console resolution, and it looks absolutely amazing. On Windows, there are a few steps you need to take. On AMD, You can use the "CRT Emudriver", which is a modified driver for various AMD GPUs which allows all these various resolutions. On Nvidia, you can manually set custom resolutions in the Nvidia control panel. Personally, I'd suggest going with Linux with an X11 desktop, and it's literally just plug in and go. Keep in mind that this method doesn't work with Wayland. Be sure to enable "Black Frame Insertion" or set the "Vsync swap interval" to 2 for the smoothest output.
I’ve actually done quite a bit of testing on 240p120 vs 480p with scanlines. It’s exactly the same. And depending on the emulation, running at 120Hz might add more lag. To be clear, I’m NOT shooting down your comment. I was equally as interested as you when I first heard about that. But many livestreams and lag tests later, I’m back to just doubling to 240p and adding scanlines.
@@RetroRGB I haven't really noticed any latency on my end when I had a VGA CRT (No longer own one), but I can totally understand how this method could add some. Yeah I agree, Just doubling the base resolution and adding artificial scanlines over it would be the best way around it. Easier to do and (I assume) better on the monitor's lifespan.
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I make adapters RGB to VGA all console on my colection. Amazing results.
Did anyone try this and find the screen going blank every 5 to 15 seconds? Getting lovely image but its flicking to blank and bank. I've ordered same hdmi converter and tried it with laptop just to see if it was the crt.
There's a tendak HDMI to vga converter that adds 0 delay. Unfortunately those games internally render at 16:9, so they will never look "proper" on a 4:3 display.
Hey, is there any hdmi to vga adapter that can output 1600x1200 (OSSC x5)? For it to use it on a 1600x1200 crt monitor. I think Tendak is not capable. I'll try soon with the Portta one but as it says in the technical specs its maximum output is 1920x1080@60 I don't think it'll work either.
@@RetroRGB This specification seems to indicate that it will do 640x480. allpinouts.org/pinouts/connectors/computer_video/apple-macintosh-video-15-pin/ I guess I'll be to make a cable or something. Oh and thanks for the reply.
Thanks so much for covering this matter. I've been coming at CRTs from as many angles as I can collecting smaller SDTVs for RGB modding, buying a PVM, and the CRT computer monitor route which is a nice medium option between SDTV and PVM. They are still around but heavy shipping cost for their weight, try to find some locally but with the "great CRT purge" people ditched so many like they had herpes on them lol. All the thrift shops in my home town won't take them anymore so that middle man is gone, probably should try the recycling centers. :\
Thank you for a very concise video detailing different scalers to use when playing our retro systems on VGA CRT Monitors. I'm thinking of using RAD2x cables for most of my Nintendo and Sega consoles, then Component through my Retrotink 2x Pro-M for my Wii, PS3 and X360.
Great video as usual! I just want to add that composite consoles look great on my CRT PC monitor when using with RetroTINK 2x + SLG3000 (I don't have the PRO version of RetroTINK 2x that has scanlines).
The real problem with VGA CRT monitors used for retro arcade isn't so much the signal/input compatibility, you can get really good converters for that but the fact that they are low radiation designed to spare human eyes over long hours of office work which is nice except the overall brightness and contrast these monitors can produce is about one third or less of an older 15khz CRT monitor especially of an industrial/arcade model. The result: an all together dim image with washed out colours that lacks exactly the vibrant colourful crispness that makes arcade games on CRT monitors look awesome. I would also rather recommend using an old curved tube CRT TV with a euro scart instead, those can really come close or even match the original experience.
I bought a $1.50 vga to s-video adapter from aliexpress & honestly for my use case I’m perfectly happy with it. I have a living room crt but I wanted a way to quickly grab a console & play at my desk
First I thought you were going to use the NES and SNES classic edition and hook them up to a VGA-monitor. How would that work? If you have a HDMI to analog converter with zero lag, would you not get less lag and better gaming experience than on a HDTV?
They're 720p, so it wouldn't look the same at this, but it WOULD have less lag than an average TV. Gaming monitors have really low latency though, so using one of those would be equally as fast.
ok so i tried hooking up my consoles to my vga monitor i have the same zero lag hdmi to vga converter its set up as such rgb console into gswitch scart into ossc into the converter to my monitor but no matter what i try i get no signal my monitor is a viewsonic 17ps
How are games with sync drops due to resolution changes like Chrono Cross and Silent Hill? Does a VGA CRT Monitor handle this better than a flat panal?
All the PVM & BVMs are so rare because everyone that actually owns them OWNS LIKE 57 OF THEM
It really is unfortunate. I'm not alone in this for sure. I tell myself that they are backups and they are but there's probably no way all of them will break.
"I am looking into your future, I see you living alone, I see you have lots of crt's.... my that's a lot of crt's....."
I hate them
I only have 2
I have 2 now
This is the video the community needed.
PC CRTs are criminally underrated.
Plus if you’re sensitive to flicker, you can double the screen refresh rate (if the horizontal refresh is high enough in KHz), at least on a PC. Comes at the cost of some image cross-talk, but I’d imagine it would still look better than VRR on an LCD display.
Personally, I’d like to try that at 240P, and then pair it with AMD’s AFMF (which while isn’t great with 3D games, makes 2D scrolling look smoother) to further smoothen how retro games look, would be a really cool thing to experiment with and see how it affects latency.
PC CRT Monitores are far supperior to PVM's, they have the same quality as any BVM, and can go up to 4:3 4K resolution. Also way way cheaper
line doubling is the traditional compatibility mode for VGA monitors to older signals that are below the minimum scanrate of VGA, so e.g. 200p becomes 400p
Great to see this video up! I've been recommending scalers+VGA for years, and more recently as a perfect output for MiSTer (enable doublescan and off you go with perfect refresh rates and 2:1 scaling). Razor sharp images, amazing colour, no lag. Can't argue with that.
Exactly what I do as well: scandoubler with a MiSTer to a VGA CRT. Unfortunately it doesn't work with the PS1 core, and the upcoming Saturn and Jaguar cores probably won't play nice either.
And the best geometry available if that matters to you. I know it does for me with older tile heavy games and anything with lots of menus.
I am surprised no one has hit you with the 'that's not legit 240p 60hz, that's image doubling 240p at 120hz' argument. I have not seen it with my own naked eye balls but from videos that I have seen I would be very happy with it because it looks incredible in my opinion. It makes the picture brighter too.
Cool thing about VGA monitors, is that they support high refresh rates out of the box, and this is not only a good thing for PC games, but that also makes it possible to achieve native console resolutions. Through NVIDIA control panel, I'm able to create new resolutions, like, 256x224@130Hz, and many NES / SNES emulators that I've used recognize that, and play the games at fullscreen with true scanlines, so no need for filters or gamma boost. Sure, the refresh rate is not even integer with the usual 60Hz, but those consoles already use odd refresh rates that require some sort of v-sync for it not to judder / tear the image on any PC monitor, so it plays fine on such a high refresh.
It would be cool if it there was a device that allowed to double the vertical refresh signal, instead of just line doubling. 320x240@120Hz uses the same 31KHz signal as 640x480@60Hz, so maybe it isn't that hard to just double the refresh on a VGA monitor while maintaining the same line count that a console would usually send.
In the Rpi scene i'm pretty sure i've read about use of 240p @ 120hz but I think you are referring to original hardware
It's always a shame that 15 kHz was thrown out the window during those IBM days 480p became a thing. So many dos games ended up 240p line-doubled and no scanlines.
Of course DOOM at 240p..... eheh-heh-heh!
Love the dot mask PC monitor look. IMO it's nicer to look at than an aperture grille.
I bought a 1995 view sonic 15s recently and long story short the guy who sold it to me told me it was his moms who recently passed at 102 years old, 1 owner and shed play solitaire 4 hours a day
I still really wish VGA monitors could handle 15khz and component signals since it would make finding an all in one solution for CRT gaming way easier than looking for rare 480P RGB monitors or using converters.
My 31khz VGA CRT did something weird today that this reminded me of, it suddenly started accepting resolutions lower than its usual minimum. Previously, anything under 640x480 just gave me a “frequency too low” error on the monitor, but today it suddenly stopped giving that warning, at all. So I can transmit any resolution I want to it below 640x480 now with some careful settings. I’ve found it’s most useful for GBA games, I can emulate them and perfectly integer scale it to 480x320, and it looks amazing on my CRT, the scanlines are really well spaced and it looks lovely and bright. But I also managed to run emulators at 320x240 (I needed to do some tinkering in Nvidea settings to make this work, it only seems to understand signals with at least 450x300 pixels, but if I specify the signal so it has 320x240 active pixels and 480x320 total pixels, it just only displays the 320x240, and it’s easy to show it on fullscreen with some adjustment, and it looks really good and super sharp, with proper scanlines that look as thick as a PVM, it’s really impressive, but I personally don’t like that look very much and I find scanlines like that give me eye strain, so I mainly stick with 320x240+ resolutions. If I try to go below 450x300 total pixels (so far, I keep finding new ways around the restrictions.) it just shuts down the monitor, but as long as the total pixels stay at that level I can technically feed it any amount of active pixels, but with numbers less than half of total pixels tends to cause some weirdness, running it at 240x160 for native resolution GBA for example technically worked, but it didn’t fit the screen very well, the image was too small and in the corner, and even with the settings I couldn’t quite get it to fill the screen, and in this mode the scanlines are so enormous that it looks awful to me, I much prefer to line double it with integer scaling and then display it that way.
Sadly it doesn’t seem to have actually become a 15khz monitor, but it’s been a lot of fun to mess with. 24khz arcade games look great on it, and it’s awesome to play Model 1, 2 and 3 games at native resolution, and since they are below 800x600 I can run them at 120hz too for flicker free gaming without extra judder from using 85hz or something.
@@justanotheryoutubechannel I just use Retroarch Super Resolution Switch Res and done for 240p on a CRT monitor, looks awesome.
Back in the day, I used to hook up my SNES, Genesis, and Saturn to my VGA monitor with the XRGB2. Fell into the RGB hole then and never left. Glad there are so many great new options now.
I have a CRT monitor dedicated for Retro gaming. Its made all of my retro consoles look fantastic.
Super glad you're covering the GBS-Control project. I picked one up a few months ago and I'm super excited to put it together!
I've been using CRT VGA monitors for classic consoles since February this year. I use the OSSC and an HDMI to VGA adapter. Looks beautiful.
That's not true. That combination will cause an electrical fire.
I use an old black and white 4" monitor. I use RF adapters. It looks so bad. I love channel 3!
@@jacobprayer8656 now that you've mentioned it, I just noticed my house is on fire.
@@Supervocetubeia64 also be sure to adjust the flux capacitor.
Brilliant how did you hook up a megadrive genesis this way could you send me some links on how to?
I believe you are correct. The NES Zapper is just a much more primitive lightgun. It only looks for a flash and the NES only cares about the timing. Any lightgun with an aiming reticle is using the video signal's analog timing itself-that's why they have to piggyback off compositive/luma/whatever line sync is on-to figure out where on the screen it is being pointed. The very nature of the deinterlacing being done is going to make that not work.
I've been telling people for years that a good quality vga monitor can still beat out many LCD monitors out there.
While not currently in use, 1 have 2 21" HP Trinitron CRTs (yes, HP screen, says trititron on the chasis) for the day that I decide to move them over to the game room for more than just the Dreamcast. Also have 2 component to VGA adapters (a Vdigi and a Key Digital) which were highly regarded back in the early 2000s
Thank you for making this video. Here in So Cal good 21” VGA CRT monitors are not that easy to come by anymore.
No they're not lol!
They cost $5000 If they come up online
@@alpzerlaken pretty much. Pc crt is over
Gamecube games look fantastic on a CRT monitor at 480p! It's amazing how much better 480p looks on a CRT compared to an LCD television. I didn't like 240p through RetroTINK though, even with scanlines. It just doesn't look authentic enough. My monitor's brightness isn't powerful enough to compensate for the dimming effect of the scanlines so there's zero bloom with the visible lines.
Hello Bob, could you PLEASE make a video about the Wii in both 4:3 and 16:9?
VGA monitors are great for xbox 360 as it natively supports VGA and has official high quality vga cables for low cost. The original xbox is good as well once you flash a VGA bios to it. The VGA bios turns the xbox into a 480p sync on green signal. Most VGA crts support sync on green. Unlike PS2 there is no bullshit. It just always works.
Bob
Do you have any information to what happened with the PS2 vga adapter aka Playbaby?
In my experience only the dreamcast light gun games work on a VGA CRT.
Still a bit of a challenge to calibrate the lightgun and get it to the same accuracy as composite on CRT. The vga out of the DC looks amazing for the House of the Dead and Death Crimson OX
The only trouble I've ever had with Dreamcast lighgun games is with a bad gun. Once I got a good one, they work on all CRT's, in all supported resolutions.
@@RetroRGB thanks for the quick reply (What lightguns do you use?)
I've tested the madcatz which is meh and the star fire light blaster which is better imho.
Its noticable on the corners and perimeter of the screen in calibration where aiming is kinda jumpy.
So basically 1 or 2 bosses in the House of the Dead. My Sony Wega Trinitrons even the ones at 60hz are also less accurate than a Panasonic Tau CRT I've tested. Maybe I need to get a new light gun?
And this is why I hung onto my old ViewSonic monitor. I figured we'd get to a day where we'd be able to use them again.
7:15, you can get around this by adding an external scanline generator into the chain. Then you can have both scanlines and the smoothing in N64 games if you really wanted to.
"you can still find them dirt cheap"... well not for long anymore :p
Just search for "Monitor" without "CRT" and sort by lowest price. I got a Lacie electron blue for 20€ and that's a monitor used in photography with a Mitsubishi Diamondtron tube.
@@kraussthrowaway3052 Facebook market place?
Lake Michigan Computers?
They had a Dell CRT monitor for $50.
@@ThomasFan1945ProductionsTMwait til you find out most people dont live in America
Strange that the scan lines on the GBS do not go through the blue of Link's shield?
When I play Rastan (SEGA Master System) on my consumer CRT, the clouds look rounded. And I mean rounded, not blurry. When I play them on an emulator, even with "scanlines" turned on, they still look pixellated. No one can appreciate what CRTs do to hide pixels until they see it in person. It's a special kind of anti-aliasing.
Use the emulator retroarch and the shader CRT royale filter. It creates that anti aliasing look on all those pixels. I actually use the ntsc svideo preset and it looks very authentic to a CRT through emulation.
@@jason160uk thanks I will try it out
@@Domarius64 It does require 1440p and above to look right. I also use an overlay to give an image of a CRT. I use one that has a reflection on the screen for added effect.
@@jason160uk ahh, thanks for the heads up. I don't have a 4k screen but I knew we might get there again one day with enough improvement in resolution and colour to simulate it in a more nuanced way :)
@@jason160uk I might want to hit you up for tips, it's really rare to see someone interested in recreating CRT accurately. Let me know if you have a Discord or something you want to share.
Would love to know the technical details of the Hdmi to vga converter. Is there a full list of the resolutions it can do somewhere? Amazon listing only mentions 720p and 1080p. Ideally i want to do 2048x1536 @80hz or at least 1600x1200.
I've only tested HDMI to VGA in basic resolutions like 240p, 480p and 720p. The one I link to in the description works fine with all of those.
I will test the Portta one soon. I'm also interested in a hdmi to vga adapter with 1600x1200 support.
I have 2 VGA CRT monitors for my retro computers and I'm glad I can now hook up my old game systems to them.
Makes me wish I never sold my old ViewSonic :( But I never thought we would be totally CRTless then.
I'm using a MiSTer FPGA with a VGA CRT monitor and I'm loving it :)
This is exactly my plan. Glad to hear it's working well for you.
4:20 oh thats interesting the shield has scan lines but they have color.
Scanlines are the lines that makes up the image. Not the black in-between lines.
@@vinnievincent85 I know that, nerd. Its just people commonly refer to them that way.
Thank you for not being obnoxious with your videos. Too many of the other type out there.
This is great Bob, but I feel there is a missed opportunity to Clearly show how the connection goes from RGB or component to VGA.
Do each of those devices you mention output HDMI and then you use the HDMI to VGA adapter you link in the description?
Thanks!
I went into great detail about there here: th-cam.com/video/7VOsOuQ5mhM/w-d-xo.html
There's no "missed opportunity", I just didn't want to waste people's time by showing it all over again.
6:00 is that a slot mask?? I thought monitors were all dot mask (sharper to look closer to the screen) and that slot mask were only use on consumer CRT TVs.
9:10 it may be the light gun itself and not the games. It can be screwy
I did some testing with my both my NES (composite) and Original Xbox (component and composite) with the Retro Tink 2x and 2x multi (both with up to date firmware) through a HDMI to VGA dongle, on my Samsung SyncMaster 753DF
The Silent Scope Light Rifle for the original Xbox will work (it says supports HD on the box) but the the madcatz blasters don't work properly. It warns about lightguns not working in 480p in the instruction booklet.
House of the Dead 3 supports 480p and pass through will work with the SSLR but the House of the Dead 2 won't work with the system set to 480p in its settings.
Yet if you ahut off 480p in the video settings and let the Tinks scal 480i to 480p and the lightgun works well enough for both.
I still need to test Starsky and Hutch. But the the only other official lightgun game is Silent Scope Complete and they managed to screw up the lightgun code so badly that you have to jack up the in game brightness to around 80% for the game to track where you are aiming the gun, even on standard consumer CRT.
I still need to test the Tink 5x aswell.
I had some stuff I was doing with the ossc and my vga monitor some time before I started making suggestions that pc crt's are an alternative to the pvm/bvm line. Now I think they're referring to them as "Poor man's bvm"
But yeah with ossc, 3x, 4x, 5x, etc can gain even better yields in quality and surprisingly there's a few that can handle the other interlaced modes better as well enough to compete with the tink. Btw, shadowmask lines are pretty neat like a stain glass window vs aperture grille. Get the more glowy shots and they stand out!
One other thing I may be considering a quick upload test on ossc 5x on an led panel just to show how nicely it competes wih the bvm. You can bring up line counts all you want, but in many cases, there seems as if there's no lines at all. Just those razor thin custom scanlines that show we're a step away from total preservation until panel tech catches up properly.
I am agree 👍Vga crt with a upscaler, it is the best option even better than some Pvm, cause better convergence and sharpness.
@@voltz15 Hey, I'd like to ask the hdmi to vga adapter that you're using so you can output 1600x1200 (OSSC x5). I believe Tendak one is not compatible. I will try with the Portta one soon. Thanks.
@@shianchuu I'm using an onn adapter I picked up from Walmart.
nerding out about video signals, love it.
Great video as always!
I was really hoping you'd mention 3x laced mode of the OSSC. 480i x3 is, in my opinion, the best way to play PS2 etc. And the odd line tripled interlaced signal mostly won't work on flat panel TVs. The resulting fine altering scanlines are perfect for a high-res VGA monitor!
I don't think VGA monitors would accept any kind of interlaced signal at all. That's an interesting thought though...I'd definitely like to try it out!
@@RetroRGB well "VGA" monitors would not, if we're strictly talking about monitors capable of 640x480 max. But if the monitor syncs to a high enough scanrate to support 1024x768 it would also support 720p and therefore 1440i.
It works very well on a Sony F520 for example. I remember testing 1440i with my D32 as well, but that signal was generated by a Groovymame PC, not by an OSSC.
Yes, if you still have everything setup, throw a PS2 game in and test the 3x laced mode :) it looks way better than Bob deinterlacing, IMO.
@@RetroRGB Funnily enough - I've tested this on at least two CRT monitors. A HP P1110 (that I can't further test on atm - repairs pending. I'll need to sub to your Patreon and ask for advice there), and a LG Studioworks 900B.
They respect interlacing as long as it's over 31kHz.
I should test with my other monitors, but I'm in quite a cramped household at the moment.
Yeah I was really surprised myself when I tested x3 on my Gateway and line-doubled interlaced was working perfectly! It's strange cause I tried this with my LG led and that was the only mode that wasn't recognized. Go figure!
The other x3, x4 ,x5 modes for 240p content are great once you start adding vertical scanlines and adjusting them with hybrid. The other line doublers and scalers totally lack this feature, so I had to push for this to be included!
@@RetroRGB I used to run Xbmc in 1080i on my modded Xbox with the Neoya (think that's the name) X2VGA dongle. Was a bit dark, but looked amazing.
I’m not saying I would have been able to fix it when I was 13... But knowing what I know now there’s no way I would have given up the Amiga monitor my brother and I used with our SNES when it broke down. Instead of buying or sharing a TV (still only had 2 in the whole house at the time) we used that (I think it was 15”) when our family switched over to a PC and got a whole new setup. The picture was soooooo crisp on that thing.
I FEEL your pain. My Amiga's 1084s died in like 2005, and I let that thing go way too easily. Probably could've had it fixed up with a little bit of effort, but I didn't know better back then!!
PSA: I got the Tendak adapter advertised in this video. Unfortunately it doesn't work too well. The picture flickered and cut off intermittently and sometimes these lines and other artefacts appeared on screen. I tested it on two displays and two cables so I'm pretty sure the adapter is the culprit. I found no rhyme or reason for what caused the issues so it's probably random, but resolution or image mode changes seemed to trigger it sometimes. I recommend reading the 1-2 star reviews at Amazon. I'll probably try a adapter with external power because one major issue could be that the HDMI isn't supplying enough power for it.
Such a great video, I can tell you put a lot of work into it. I was looking for a VGA monitor and the video is super helpful and gives a good insight in what they can do. Thanks Bob!!
So if I'm understanding the full setup here properly - Bob is feeding RGB out of a console outputting 240p (presumably a SNES) via SCART -> into a device for upscaling (line-doubling) to 480p -> outputting digital HDMI from there -> into a VGA adapter or lag-free VGA converter attached to the VGA monitor.
So with a native 240p console output, I understand the need to upscale to 480p, since VGA monitors generally don't accept 15khz signal (SD, 480i and under).
I'm interested in playing Gamecube games in 480p on a VGA monitor instead of hunting down an HD CRT.
Then with a console outputting native 480p like a Gamecube or PS2 via YPbPr, is the OSSC/RetroTink necessary? Or is it possible to use only a Component>VGA adapter/converter to change the pinout?
Perhaps a sync stripper is needed to convert YPbPr's Sync-on-Luma to VGA's HV sync?
For Gamecube, all you'd need is something like a Carby and a cheap HDMI to VGA converter: retrorgb.link/cheapdac
insurrectionindustries.com/product/carby-v2/
For PS2, you'd probably want the GBS Control, since it will scale 480i and pass through 480p.
Man I still love that intro, it's so satisfying
Also, I should break out my dell trinitron monitor and try some of these options. It looks outstanding on my desktop PC, having no issues with even 1600x1200, looking clear as could be
I wanted to do this, but there is one issue that's not mentionned.
If you are in europe, use pal consoles and your scaler doesn't change the refresh rate from 50hz to 60hz, most VGA monitors (LCD and CRT) won't be able to display it.
I tried to connect my RGB N64 to different monitors and tv using an OSSC and a cheap HDMI to VGA adapter. (The OSSC doesn't change the refresh rate from 50hz to 60hz.)
With my:
- 4:3 19" Dell LCD, it didn't work.
- 42" inc TV (it has a vga input), it didn't work.
- 40" LCD Phillips PC monitor it worked. This is a high-end monitor.
- old (late 90's) 14" CRT pc monitor, it worked but the image was heavely flickering. It was unbearable.
Bob, do 480p signal work with the GBS 8200? Here in Brazil it's the cheapest (and the only available) way to convert component video to VGA and I want to use Xbox and Wii on my CRT monitor.
Yes, 480p works great! I'll have more videos on GBS Control soon...just make sure to do the mod and not just use the GBS8200's regular firmware. The wifi modules required should be cheap too.
@@RetroRGB Thanks Bob, you are great!
Great video! I just got a CRT VGA monitor and was trying to figured out the component to VGA path. I already own an OSSC, so using that with HDMI -> VGA converter seems like the way to go versus component -> VGA
your intro music is just the best dude
Thanks so much!
My first upscaler experience was with a PlayStation 2 combined with a XRGB2plus hooked up to a Sony Trinitron VGA monitor back in 2002. It was impressive to see way back then. Thankfully there are more options for upscaling and conversion now. If you can find one cheap, the Micomsoft XRGB2 series is still a viable option for upscaling to standard VGA monitors. Keep them away from flat panels though.
2:00 I just don't understand the appeal of those huge scanlines. The right one looks _so_ much better to me.
That's the wonderful thing about this stuff: There is no "right" answer, only what looks best to you. As long as you don't add lag :)
@@RetroRGB That's a nice way to look at it
I just got some dell crt that was manufactured in 1998 and only has a hardwired vga cable and most of my consoles only have composite video.
Perfect, this video is what you need. Look into the RetroTINK Mini, or RetroTINK 2x Pro.
@@RetroRGB ok
What about this?
I was thinking about a CRT HDTV with a retro PC passing a VGA signal to a VGA to HDMI converter. You can also use this TV's composite port to connect a console directly.
How would it look?
As long as you're sending the HD CRT 480p, it'll be the exact same as what I showed in this video - Enable basic scalines and it'll look 480p. In my opinion, that's a great solution. Just keep in mind many HD CRT's add lag.
So with the GBS-Control and a decent CRT monitor you can have a really similar image to a pvm for a fraction of the price, i'm glad to know that. The days about dreaming of getting a framemeister are gone lol. Can't wait for the GBS video!
Gollot, yes indeed, gbs-control is amazing for the price.
You mean PVM 20L5. 15kHz PVM's like 20L2, 20M2, don't look like that. Color lines are much thicker.
So, I would need a retrotink and a HDMI to VGA converter to get my retro consoles work on a PC CRT monitor. I have a Hewlett Packard Ergo 1024 and tried my Wii with a Component to VGA transcoder. The menu was fine but when I started a game the screen went "out of range". Is this why I need a retrotink product?
Make sure your Wii is set to 480p, 4:3. And also double check the game is 480p compatible. If it still doesn't work, an OSSC might be a better choice.
@@RetroRGB So there is impossible to play 480i games on a PC CRT monitor? So no luck for Pal games for the PS2 (rgb) with this setup as well? I thought that the scaler would scale the input source by itself to 480p so the CRT monitor can accept the signal..but I might have completely wrong on this...Or is it possible to get picture if using a retrotink 5x pro and have it set to 480p? Thank you for your answer, anyway! 😀
As PVMs are getting harder to find, I thought about using a VGA monitor instead. What’s the best way to get the signal from something like an OSSC or RetroTink into a VGA monitor? I thought there was the whole 15 kHz vs 31 kHz problem.
15 kHz and 240p are just doubled up to 31 kHz 480p vga and higher. Hdmi to vga adapters are under $20 these days.
Even my Gateway accepts 480i passthru as line doubled 31 kHz (Mode 3). Who would have ever thought to see that on a pc display!
Check the description for the link to the HDMI to VGA converter I used.
Now for PS1/PS2 gun games, how would the GunCon-compatible ones work, since those require the gun to plug into whatever is providing the sync signal?
Probably the same, as they're syncing off 15KHz.
would a 480p signal through the passthrough of the RetroTink2x-Multiformat into a HDMI to VGA converter work? I have beautiful Bang & Olufsen consumer CRTs but they can't handle 480p unfortunately. so this would be a great option.
Yup, that should work fine.
Did you notice how in the comparison shot of the GBS control there was "bleeding" of colors in between/in the scanlines? I guess it is signaling more voltage to the electron guns, but the result may be desirable as it may round out the graphics seen from a normal distance (and pleasing those who think scanlines look too prominent on these monitors).
Yes, however all I had access to for these shots was the GBS8220 without the fix. I bit it would be better with the regular gbs8200.
Rust in Peace guitar and retro gaming... You have the best decorations 🥰
Thank you :)
Great video! I picked up a Dell 20” VGA CRT last week and I’m loving it with MiSTer. My other CRTs bother my wife, she can’t put up with the high pitched squeal, but she doesn’t hear anything with the VGA one. Now I can play on a CRT in the living room with her.
Only SD CRTs suffer from 15Khz whine. Computer monitors are 31Khz, so no whine.
how young is your wife where she can still hear it?
@@rat9625 I'm 27 and can still hear it. Of of my 22 yo friends came over and could not remember that whine from when they where younger and asked about it
9:46 Does the SNES Super Scope do work?
I am curious about Gamecube 480p component output on PVM-20L5 vs VGA CRT monitor.
I'd imagine it's the same. I run my low res stuff 480p and honestly you'd expect the same scanline width as well as the same line count.
I think it's a bit funny because those pvm's/bvm's cost so much to produce, yet they just match the grade quality of computer crt's at the low end before resolutions start to jump. When you see your games x4, x5 their original resolution, it gets kinda crazy depending on how well the display handles them before they start running beyond their focus range.
Maybe if you could mod the sony tubes for higher resolutions, then that's where we'll see the real comparison.
Even modern consoles look very good on a CRT monitor.
Yeah, a good CRT with a high resolution and refresh rate will blow away most "modern gamers". Playing a PC game at 2048*1536 @ 85hz on a high quality screen looks amazing. And if you need to lower the res for higher refresh/framerate that is no issue because CRTs have no native resolution. Every available resolution is nice and crisp. And you can easily find them that can do 120hz.
@@jokerzwild00 Yes my HP P1130 handles that pretty damn well
Would there be any lag (or any other drawbacks) using an OSSC line-doubler and deinterlacer for a game like Chrono Cross on a PVM or consumer CRT? Obviously on modern flat panels there's a delay as it switches between 240p and 480i.
Haha so weird to see 240p scanlines on a shadow mask monitor haha. I do prefer the slot mask and aperture grille ones. Anyway, great video!
Don't forget the game consoles with 31khz display modes can be hooked up to VGA using the correct cables and adapters.
The Dreamcast works with VGA monitors for most of the library via VGA box or VGA cable adapters. Some games like Plasma Sword lack VGA compatibility.
The PS2 works with VGA monitors, but it must be a slimline PS2 as they carry out power through the AV port (which the original PS2 models didn't have). The PS3/Wii VGA cable can play PS2 games on a VGA monitor, but will only work with 480p supported titles like Guilty Gear XX or Tekken 4. However, some games like DanceDanceRevolution X2 and Tekken 5 utilize special button codes that enable 480p mode for use on a VGA monitor.
The Wii can be used on a VGA monitor via PS3/Wii VGA cable, but the Wii console's video output must be set to EDTV/HDTV (480p) settings. Most Wii games allowed 480p output, so it's VGA-friendly. Many GameCube games have a 480p display mode, so usually hitting the A button upon booting them up enables the appropriate display mode for the VGA monitor. Several 480i-only Wii and GameCube games like Sega Bass Fishing, Sakura Wars: So Long My Love, Target: Terror and Crazy Taxi won't work with this cable unless you use USB Loader GX or Nintendont to force 480p. Same said with Neo-Geo Virtual Console titles. Even certain GameCube games like the Dragon Ball Z Budokai duoligy don't allow 480p forcing, making those games VGA incompatible entirely.
The Xbox is VGA supported since many games allowed 480p and 720p display modes. All you had to do is enable them and use an HDMI-to-VGA adapter once you get your Xbox HDMI adapter. The only downer is that non-progressive games like Marvel vs. Capcom 2 won't even work with the VGA monitors since most VGA monitors cannot take 15khz signals.
One ossc and everything's 480p vga standard!
That generation missed out so much when the Dreamcast died and nothing was standardized to match it. Gunvalkyrie and Panzer Dragoon Orta.... Ohhhh Yeeeaaahhh...... (Top Hat Gameing man impersonation)
NES Zapper work. But SNES Super Scope does work?
your videos are very helpful, and quite informative, thank you!
I guess I have a question in relation to using the OSSC as one of those options. It's my understanding that the OSSC can be a bit fiddly when it comes to anything above 2x modes depending on the console or the display, my question is at the very least does the 2X mode work on just about anything? Because I would like to get an OSSC say over a RetroTink 2X-Scart just to have a device that has a few different uses other than just 2X, but knowing that the 2X mode works with just about anything will give me some peace of mind with compatibility with say any capture card I might decide to use it with.
Your understanding is correct - There MIGHT still be compatibility issues with 480p (especially with SNES and NES), but there are far less than with all other modes.
Hi, what do I need to get an Image from a Radeon HD 9790 ghz edition to a video component crt tv? A dvi to component cable? Or do I need a "scaler"? Or converter or something like that. I want to play groovymame with it.
Do old consoles ouput full-rgb (0-255) signal by default?
Another great video Bob I've been waiting for a good pc CRT monitor video and can't wait for your custom firmware gbs-8200 video
Best I ever saw was when I hooked up the Sega Dreamcast in VGA on a 19-inch Sony computer monitor. Played Code Veronica on it, and the guy that owned the computer said the graphics looked better than his PC games!
@@NirnBootMod You're making too much of a point on comparing the same game for your console vs pc war. Dreamcast games were pretty ahead of the curve in many areas back in 1999 and on their own terms they did so much to match quality levels one would have to buy a GeForce 3 card for.
Games like SoulCalibur, Spawn, DOA2 opened a lot of eyes for gamers, but killing the Dreamcast and putting us back a few steps with regular av (and non-progressive YUV component) didn't help favors any. I use an ossc on those systems now with my vga setup and it's crazy how much of the best quality we missed. Gunvalkyrie and Panzer Dragoon Orta especially.
Dreamcast was such a great experience during it's time, but right now my vga is adapting the other non-vga consoles (via component) to get that near level of quality and it's a shame because they obviously look just as great, if not better when we got to Xbox.
I have 14 consoles from 3rd to 6th gen on an OSSC ---> HDMI-VGA ---> PC-CRT setup, but I don't put *lines* on the image because I don't want *lines* - am I missing something here?
That's 100% preference. I prefer to add the lines so it looks like I'm playing on a BVM in 240p, but that's up to you. If you like the way it looks as-is, enjoy it: You have a zero-lag setup, in the proper aspect ratio, with no worries about LCD motion blur :)
Great video, but one thing I can't wrap my head around is how you're connecting the console with VGA? Using the Retrotink for example, what's the additional adapter being converting the cables to VGA? Cheers!
Zero-lag HDMI to VGA Converter used in this video: amzn.to/2BYLDZv
The vga monitor is a dot trio sgadow mask right? Would be perfect seeing this with a aperture grille and slot mask ones haha
I know, I wish I could have shown a Sony 20" VGA monitor as well!!
@@RetroRGB i have both a slot mask and aperture grille ones, and looks like a pvm and bvm on Mister (: specially the aperture grille one haha
And high end CRT such as Trinitron monitor or PVM is better than any flat panel with all games still.
We need new CRT displays!
I'm confused. My PS2 menu won't show up with retrotink and vga adapter (I'm using a HDD/FMB) but if I load a game on my other monitor and switch to the adapter it shows up. Are the menu and game different resolutions or something? and the n64 showed up straigh away.
FIXED: it was the menu screen for some reason, used opl settings to jump straight to that, bypassing menu screen.
hey man I really loved this video thanks for the in depth overview!! Im one of the VERY few idiots that want to use the a VGA monitor in the specific use case that you mentioned at the end of the video: NES and using a light gun! (@9:45) I see that youre using the retrotink but I see that you've got a SCART cable connected to it. is your NES modded for SCART or am I missing something there?
Thanks! Yes, that console has a NESRGB installed. It’ll work the same with a composite video cable and a RetroTINK 2X Pro…but obviously won’t be as clear.
@@RetroRGB thanks for that!!!
Another great thing about VGA CRTs is that with RetroArch, you can plug one into a modern PC and with some work you can get TRUE 240p resolution out of the monitor at 120hz.
On Linux (With an X11 Desktop environment/Window Manager), you can literally just open RetroArch, enable the CRT Switchres option, choose the 31khz option, and you are good to go! most cores will properly set the monitor's resolution to the original console resolution, and it looks absolutely amazing.
On Windows, there are a few steps you need to take.
On AMD, You can use the "CRT Emudriver", which is a modified driver for various AMD GPUs which allows all these various resolutions.
On Nvidia, you can manually set custom resolutions in the Nvidia control panel.
Personally, I'd suggest going with Linux with an X11 desktop, and it's literally just plug in and go. Keep in mind that this method doesn't work with Wayland.
Be sure to enable "Black Frame Insertion" or set the "Vsync swap interval" to 2 for the smoothest output.
I’ve actually done quite a bit of testing on 240p120 vs 480p with scanlines. It’s exactly the same. And depending on the emulation, running at 120Hz might add more lag.
To be clear, I’m NOT shooting down your comment. I was equally as interested as you when I first heard about that. But many livestreams and lag tests later, I’m back to just doubling to 240p and adding scanlines.
@@RetroRGB I haven't really noticed any latency on my end when I had a VGA CRT (No longer own one), but I can totally understand how this method could add some.
Yeah I agree, Just doubling the base resolution and adding artificial scanlines over it would be the best way around it. Easier to do and (I assume) better on the monitor's lifespan.
I make adapters RGB to VGA all console on my colection. Amazing results.
Did anyone try this and find the screen going blank every 5 to 15 seconds? Getting lovely image but its flicking to blank and bank. I've ordered same hdmi converter and tried it with laptop just to see if it was the crt.
I would love to see a followup discussing how to get 6th-8th gen widescreen games to display properly on a 4:3 crt monitor.
There's a tendak HDMI to vga converter that adds 0 delay. Unfortunately those games internally render at 16:9, so they will never look "proper" on a 4:3 display.
How do you connect a Retrotink scart to VGA?
Any hdmi to VGA adapter or there are preferred ones?
The Rankie works great: retrorgb.link/cheapdac
Here's the SCART to VGA you'd need: www.retrorgb.com/hd15-2-scart-adapter.html
Yeah, as someone who views demos on my Amiga 2000 and 1200, I may just sell the OSSC and get a RetroTink 2x for that.
Hey, is there any hdmi to vga adapter that can output 1600x1200 (OSSC x5)? For it to use it on a 1600x1200 crt monitor. I think Tendak is not capable. I'll try soon with the Portta one but as it says in the technical specs its maximum output is 1920x1080@60 I don't think it'll work either.
Hey, I have a 15 pin monitor from an old PPC Mac. Has anyone had any success using one of these with an upscaler? Any tips?
That's a good question. If it can accept 640x480 at more than 256 colors, it SHOULD work. Unfortunately, I don't have one to try though.
@@RetroRGB
This specification seems to indicate that it will do 640x480. allpinouts.org/pinouts/connectors/computer_video/apple-macintosh-video-15-pin/
I guess I'll be to make a cable or something.
Oh and thanks for the reply.
As long as the RGBHV pins match, it should be safe to try. That's a neat monitor...hopefully it'll work for you.
How do all` these all compare to the XRGB2 or 2+ ? No one on the entire Internet seems to have a comparison.
Thanks so much for covering this matter. I've been coming at CRTs from as many angles as I can collecting smaller SDTVs for RGB modding, buying a PVM, and the CRT computer monitor route which is a nice medium option between SDTV and PVM.
They are still around but heavy shipping cost for their weight, try to find some locally but with the "great CRT purge" people ditched so many like they had herpes on them lol. All the thrift shops in my home town won't take them anymore so that middle man is gone, probably should try the recycling centers. :\
Thank you for a very concise video detailing different scalers to use when playing our retro systems on VGA CRT Monitors. I'm thinking of using RAD2x cables for most of my Nintendo and Sega consoles, then Component through my Retrotink 2x Pro-M for my Wii, PS3 and X360.
Great video as usual! I just want to add that composite consoles look great on my CRT PC monitor when using with RetroTINK 2x + SLG3000 (I don't have the PRO version of RetroTINK 2x that has scanlines).
The real problem with VGA CRT monitors used for retro arcade isn't so much the signal/input compatibility, you can get really good converters for that but the fact that they are low radiation designed to spare human eyes over long hours of office work which is nice except the overall brightness and contrast these monitors can produce is about one third or less of an older 15khz CRT monitor especially of an industrial/arcade model. The result: an all together dim image with washed out colours that lacks exactly the vibrant colourful crispness that makes arcade games on CRT monitors look awesome.
I would also rather recommend using an old curved tube CRT TV with a euro scart instead, those can really come close or even match the original experience.
yes day I have tested NES classic HDMI to VGA it worked and tested SNES Classic it didn't work some reason maybe there not enough power
Picked up a CRT VGA Monitor a couple of weeks ago but haven't even plugged it in yet
Shoutout to the beharbros for their amazing VGA devices
I bought a $1.50 vga to s-video adapter from aliexpress & honestly for my use case I’m perfectly happy with it. I have a living room crt but I wanted a way to quickly grab a console & play at my desk
you don't explain how you're connecting OSSC and RetroTInk to the vga monitor, are you using an hdmi to vga converter?
Yes, check the links in the description.
First I thought you were going to use the NES and SNES classic edition and hook them up to a VGA-monitor. How would that work? If you have a HDMI to analog converter with zero lag, would you not get less lag and better gaming experience than on a HDTV?
They're 720p, so it wouldn't look the same at this, but it WOULD have less lag than an average TV. Gaming monitors have really low latency though, so using one of those would be equally as fast.
What is the cartridge in the sega nomad at 6:14?
The 240p Test Suite. It's available for free as a ROM, but I had a cartridge made, cause I use it so often.
ok so i tried hooking up my consoles to my vga monitor i have the same zero lag hdmi to vga converter its set up as such rgb console into gswitch scart into ossc into the converter to my monitor but no matter what i try i get no signal my monitor is a viewsonic 17ps
update it was my hdmi cable i changed it out and all my problems went away
With the OSSC method do I get the vertical detail through Component or do I have to use RGB?
Component and RGB inputs both work fine for this :)
@@RetroRGB Thanks for answering Bob! I'm having a blast messing around with a crt monitor.
How are games with sync drops due to resolution changes like Chrono Cross and Silent Hill? Does a VGA CRT Monitor handle this better than a flat panal?
I show this in the video.
I tried the retrotink with vga converter and a flat panel 4:3 screen (10 euro in local market) but it won't pick up the signal :(
for the PS2, I must try the n64 to see if that make a difference.