Obi Wan wasn't as clear here with his arguements as he should have been. No wonder Anakin didn't turn back to the light side. In fairness, I suppose he was a bit stressed out, what with most of the Jedi being wiped out and being in a duel to the death with the man who he considered practically his brother.
1:05 Presented counterarguments to this point represent a Non Sequitir, specifically an argument ad hominem; the statement being argued with is not Anakin's evilness, rather the Jedi's evilness. As such, any argument that focuses on the deontological and utilitarian evil of Anakin's actions, while valid, is not relevant to the discussion at hand. Meanwhile this conclusion is supported by the findings of one of the most historically literate and well read Jedi and Sith in Galactic History; namely Master Anya Kuro, Aka Darth Traya. Aka Kreia, who in studying the Jedi code observed its fundamental stagnancy and complicity it the perpetuation of evil, for by prohibiting any form of passion the code prohibited a passion for justice, freedom, etc. In this way the Jedi Code worked to effectively promote evils such as corruption, slavery, organized crime, etc. by virtue of preventing the most individually powerful and often influential individuals in the galaxy from acting against these deontological evils. Also consider the deontological evils implied by the Jedi's abduction of infants via implicit threats of violence, and the subsequent indoctrination of these children into a fundamentally psychologically harmful and cultish paradigm that prohibited individual possessions and connections outside of the Jedi order, while mandateing strict adherence to both the previously enumerated ethical code as well as the mandates of the organization's governing body on penalty of censure or exile, in so doing making escape from the organization's strictures such a heavy burden that only individuals of exceptional external ties such as Count Dooku were able to do so, as demonstrated by the very limited number of individuals known to have left the order in its multiple thousand years of existance. One can thus observe how easily the Jedi may be classified as evil. This notably does not absolve the Sith, who by virtue of historical connections to the Jedi order, particularly its origins within the First and Second Great Schisms, are best viewed as an antithesis to the Jedi order, the Sith code itself being written in direct response to the axioms of the Jedi Code. In contrast to the Jedi Code's uplififting of stagnancy and emotionlessness, the Sith code uplifts values of personal agency and freedom; this code itself implies no deiontologically amoral axioms, and indeed argues for a far healthier approach to life, and one better suited to the uprooting of systems of systemic oppression. Indeed the healthier approach stated in the axioms of the Sith code is the most common motivation under which Jedi have fallen towards it, and it is fear of this pursuit and rebellion which directly and openly motivates the Jedi's most egregiously evil practices, i.e. the abduction of children and enforcement of cult-like compliance and indoctrination structures. However, observationally it can be seen that Sith themselves very seldom positively apply this code, even when initially motivated by positive goals. Many accounts of fallen Jedi note positive motivations, love, affection, justice, etc. And yet in spite of these nominal positive motivations, these individuals inevitably appear to turn to the exclusive pursuit of personal power and self interest, forgetting those initial positive goals. While some of this may be rightly attributed to dishonesty in the motivations of these individuals, given the sheer number of cases and lack of supporting evidence it is intellectually dishonest to attribute all such incidents to dishonesty. By contrast, the teachings of the Jedi themselves provide a more likely alternative explanation, that it is the will of the force itself which leads users of Bogan (using the archaic term as to separate this discussion from Jedi Rhetoric) to consistently turn toward malicious and unconcerned self interest, a gross violation of basic values of self determination and personal agency; additionally in light of this observation one can rightly attribute a plurality of deaths enacted via the actions of the Sith to the "will of the force," as can one attribute the comparable acts of genocide enacted by the Jedi themselves, who throughout their history have repeatedly acted with the explicitly stated intention of "destroying the Sith," openly championing the antihalation of a religious and cultural group with which they have ethical disagreements, up to and including the total annihilation of the original Sith Species, starting with the rendering of their original homeworld barren via orbital bombardment. These events are themselves deontologically evil according to, as you say, any rational individual. Furthermore, we can attribute utilitarian and altruistic evil to the "will of the force" itself, as noted above, and thus via the Jedi tenet of service to the "Will of the force," to the Jedi as well. Perhaps surprisingly, this axiom of service in itself violates egoistic models of consequentialism in that it mandates service to an outside, amorphous power over personal self interest, in addition to mandating violation of the egoist right of other individuals to pursue personal self interest. Thus we may observe, based upon both their present actions, their historic actions, and their fundamental axioms the Jedi, rather uniquely, manage to violate not only deontological ethics, but also central axioms of utilitarian, altruistic, and egoistic teleological ethics, thus proving evil under both major branches of normative ethical theory.
@@devingendron2287 My point of view the Jedi are evil...more evil than killing children.....and he is doing this because he thinks the Jedi are more evil than that.... Hard not to compare the two when he says from his point of view....
In defense of the Jedi, consider that over the previous 1000 years they were being unknowingly manipulated by the dark side itself, and the Sith users. This is because unbeknownst to the Jedi, there was a secret Sith temple buried beneath the capital building. And the Jedi Temple was built near that buried temple, so that was subject to its influence. This is not disavowal of every wrong thing that the Jedi did or took part in. But it is saying that they were manipulated. That should at least offer some empathy toward them.
Anakin: "From my point of view the Jedi are evil!" Obi Wan: "Anakin, instead of a fight to the death, might we not have a civilized debate instead? Give the Emperor a call, and I will do the same with Master Yoda. We will meet on the moon of Concordia, with Mandalorian mediators, as they have reason to dislike both the Jedi and Sith orders and thus can be trusted to hold a neutral ground. Yourself and the Emperor will be seated on one end of the table while Yoda and I are seated on the other, and we will discuss the merits and flaws of your thesis." Anakin: "Debate club is for nerds." Meanwhile, on Coruscant, the fight between Yoda and the Emperor pauses: Emperor Palpatine, turning to a Coruscant Guardsmen: "Prepare my shuttle, I sense Lord Vader is in danger of cringe." Yoda: "I agree. To Mustafar we will go. Shove Obi Wan into a locker we must."
Fuck you for spoiling the punchline for a shitty useless comment that added no value and just exists for atrention. Yeah no shit it was just for that sherlock
i love how the second half of the video is anakin silently attacking obi-wan in what i can only assume to be confusion as his master turns into a goddamn protocol droid right in front of him and starts spouting the world's longest copypasta
I really wish that in the movie he just responded with “anakin literally the first thing palpatine had you do was murder one of your bosses and then massacre an entire religion’s worth of children”.
Yeah. Honestly, I hate Anakins turn to the dark side. It had to happen since it was a prequel, and order 66 itself is fantastic, but without just saying the dark side of the force corrupted him, it's too big of a fall.
@@funwithcoding2818 All jokes aside he got corrupted the moment he joined Jedi, he just changed one radical side to another. It would be so cool to watch him actually balance the force instead of trying to destroy one of sides
@@ragnaros7889Sure if Palapatene was a morally good person. Kids are malleable, he could have convinced them to join his side or have Anakin do it for him. The point isn't to kill them cause the Jedi Order is to engrained into their minds, it's because if they did live, they could potentially overthrow his rule as Emperor of the galaxy.
Unfortunately Yoda's ban on book reading prevented Anakin from learning, hence he does not understand what Oblivious-To-Planets Kenobi is saying and has to continue violence.
i feel like this should be pointed out first at the start of any debate on Anakins actions, how tf was he supposed to know what was morally correct when the only framework he was every subject to was deontological which is a normative ethical theory that states that the morality of an action should be based on whether the action itself is right or wrong under a series of rules. The boy was witness to countless wrongs by a heck ton of Jedi and by the Jedi as a whole, and the only things he know about the Sith is what the Jedi told him and therefore is is likely to then ignore everything they told him as they are obviously strongly biased and therefore approached Palpatine, a person whop he had seen only do good so far, and therefore by association the Sith as a good person, worthy of a chance. It was only when it was too late for him that he began to realise his mistake, but at that point he was finally set free of the emotionless state of the Jedi order and had instead moved on to the other extreme of being controlled by said emotions. He was purposefully taught not to read and was prohibited from reading i.e.. he was prohibited from gaining and finding information on his own outside of the Jedi's grasp and control, where they could control the narrative. They are the ones that turned all their subjects into psychopaths, and therefore they are the ones to blame.
Anakin is a strong believer in free speech. In his view if the empire never listens to reasonable criticism and dissenting voices then how will they know who to supress?
@@gullyfeather4330 Oh no. I can just imagine a conversation between Vader and Dennis "We're living in a dictatorship! A self perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes---" _draws lightsaber_ "SILENCE." "Help! Help! I'm being repre-- *hack**cough*" _collapses_
I don't know, I feel Obi's arguments could have been better explained by "Well then you are lost!" I feel that covers in far greater detail every aspect of this conflict.
@@truthhertz10Considering that in the thick of battle, thoughts become muddled and you are mostly relying on instinct to win and survive, making good philosophical points takes a backseat.
Obi Wan did not consider that Anakin is an existentialist, who values the freedom to do otherwise as a higher axiom than any absolutist rule-based ethics. Anakin is still in the wrong from this perspective, of course, since killing people (especially children) cuts off their freedom to do something with the rest of their lives, and being a fascist is very anti-freedom also. But Obi-Wan still didn't address this.
Or maybe the Sith represent hyper-individualism and the Jedi represent hyper-conformity. Don’t try to over complicate things. George Lucas was a socialist and intended Star Wars to be a commentary on imperialism and were allegories to the Vietnam War and Middle Eastern Wars.
@@Zelink108 That argument seems a little weak since in the OT the Jedi that we do see are spread out. Sure, this is to partially avoid detection, but even in the Prequel trilogy, you have this the concept of Anakin being the "chosen one who will bring balance to the force". Which he kinda does by removing the Jedi order's power base from the Galactic Republic.
Anakin: From my point of view, the Jedi are evil! Obi Wan: The Sith like sand. If you continue down this path, so will you. Anakin: You're lying! Obi Wan: Search your feelings. You know it to be true. Anakin: ...Goddammit. *Roll credits*
@@amogoose2971 Why? He could see them as equally evil or the difference being negligible or any variety of somesuch and still join the sith for rational reasons like saving Padme, even if his own actions in the end destroyed everything he holds dear. Though the way he says this and also the part about bringing peace clearly puts his stance in opposition to the Jedi
@@amogoose2971 he joined the sith to save his wife and future children. he was acting in his own interests. though in the sense that the jedi won't cooperate with him and won't even speak to him about padme, i guess he does view the sith as better.
Major problem here: your argument depends on the existence of a middle ground that doesn't exist in this context. It's either palpatine or the jedi. They are not going to coexist. So pulling a "no u" here doesn't mean "oh I never said palpatine isn't evil", it means "I picked palpatine over the jedi"
Honestly, I would pay a lot of money to see a SWTOR-Era Sith and Jedi, and maybe a Knight of Zakuul, have a genuine moral debate with a Prequel-Era Sith and Jedi. Just, Malgus and Satele Shan, and occasionally maybe Senya Tirall popping in, sitting in a room with Palpatine, and Yoda. And they just start discussing the moral virtues and pitfalls of the various Codes.
Obi Wan's arguments were sound, however, I feel as though his conclusion was weaker than it could have been. He probably could have a more emphatic closing argument. Potentially involving removing three of Anakin's limbs and leaving him dangerously close to the lava?
What Obi-wan failed to understand, and thus failed to address, is that Anakian's problems with the Jedi are rooted in a virtue ethics framework, not a deontological or utalitarian one. The discussion of corruption nearly gets there, but because virtue ethics is a framework the Jedi haven't taught it's not one Obi-Wan is prepared to consider. The individual members of the Jedi Council are more concerned with their deonotological framework that they fail to consider their own selves in the equation, often leading to what would be identified by most outsiders as an evil act, even if some might agree it was aiming for a greater good. This deeply disturbs Anakin and makes him distrust Jedi on a personal level. Meanwhile Palpatine is shown over and over to be a good man and one Anakin comes to trust. When Anakin comes to learn who Palpatine is, his first instinct is to threaten him, but then if the Jedi are evil and Palpatine is offering him something good, perhaps the philosophy the Jedi have labeled evil isn't so bad? Without a real understanding of Virtue Ethics, or of Palpatine's personal character, Anakin falls back on the deontological framework as the only moral framework he knows. The Jedi are evil and therefore must be destroyed. Finally, I am quite proud of being a nerd so calling me one is not only going to be ineffective but a waste of everyone's time.
@@herec0mestheCh33f This is the problem of frameworks all over again, as I was only considering a framework where a productive discussion was the aim. With personal enjoyment entering the equation I must concede your counterpoint is a fair one. I hope you took immense pleasure in your mockery.
This needs to be remade with the better voices from recent videos. It has the potential to match Anakin's thesis on the dichotomy inherent within The Story of Darth Plageus the Wise.
@@sealsaregood5146I have a suggestion for the remaster. A collab with the youtuber IARESMART. The collab will be a dubbed recreation of the Mustafar duel with your Obi Wan vs their Anakin from their "Anakin and Obi Wan have a fight". A nerdy hyoer analytical Obi Wan vs a logic-defying stubborn mental-gymnastics-using Anakin. An one-sided debate presented as an evenly matched discussion. What do you think?
Most evil things Jedi did: Genocide on the Sith Kidnap some kids. Average things the Sith did. Murder because they felt like it. Torture because they felt like it. Anarchy because they felt like it. Kidnaping children because they felt like it. Betrayal because they felt like it. Corrupting others because they felt like it. You can count the exceptions on both sides with one hand.
And didn’t the sith literally reorganize themselves multiple times because they had a massive problem of being unable to stop killing each other for power and promotions. Until Bane decided that was just a feature instead of a bug… After killing almost every sith.
_"Why, that would constitute a mere ad hominen, failing to illumina... Ah, fuck it. I'd rather spend the rest of my days alone in the desert than try to reason with someone whose mental faculties are rivalled by those of a bantha."_
Aww I appreciate Obi trying to understand where Anakin is coming from! I don't think he's a nerd just...well a nerd *but* and ethical and considerate one!
I love that Anakin's response in this movie is literally just "That's just your opinion lmao". It's so funny. And a funny thing too I finished watching the prequels for the first time two days ago
Ironic, he starts his monologue with "From my point of view the Jedi are evil" So it's not just a fight of lightsabers between two warriors, but also a fight of philosophy between two intellectuals.
I think it's pretty clear that Anakin was acting on misinformation, which is the actual issue Obi-Wan failed to address. Alternatively, Obi-Wan was. "From my perspective, the Jedi are evil!' "Wait, really? Sit with me, tell me what you've discovered, and let me help." (One long explanation later.) "You know, Anakin, I was not aware we ran the galactic slave trade, but that explains where we found all those younglings. May I suggest that the Jedi *and* the Sith are both evil, and we should address both of those issues together? We can supplant Palpatine, putting Padme in charge, then build a new order of force-wielders to deal with salvaging upright Jedi and killing the rest. Oh, except, the younglings..." "Killed themselves rather than join the Dark Side. In my defense, I was not aware of that bit of brainwashing when I attempted to persuade them." "Well shit." "That's what I said. Anyway, need to save Padme, so I can't kill Palpatine yet." "Anakin, the Jedi and Sith both make Holocrons by the bucketload. I'd bet my life there's a way to heal people hidden somewhere in the temple." "...Huh. Alright, let's go usurp the newly built throne. Prince Consort Skywalker sounds much better than Dath Vader, to be honest. Terribly edgy. Glad we talked this through--you're getting better at this diplomacy thing." > Roll Credits > "Episode 4, A NEW HOPE. LUKE SKYWALKER, age 18, begins his training as an IMPERIAL FORCE KNIGHT alongside his twin sister..."
The Jedis were actually fully aware of the galactic slave trade going on but didn't give a sh, Also wouldn't it be, republic force knight instead? Imperial implies that they are a dictatorship. (Also the Jedis don't kidnapped younglings like the sith they just let the parents know that being a Jedi is a good path and usage of theyr abilities compared to the Darkside alternative.)
The Jedi for one don’t run the galactic slave trade, in addition, the zygerrian trade was specifically enabled by palpatine for his plans. The Jedi also don’t kidnap children, the youngling program was completely consensual and even the grand master didn’t have access to the names of the candidates until time came to go get them.
If we take the prequels to be deeper than they are and presume Vader actually meant what he said and wasn't just lashing out, we can deduce that the Jedi limiting his capabilities, both in terms of self-actualization and protecting the ones he loves were what he considered evil. The fact that the Sith made him commit worse evils doesn't change this, after all, it's "from his point of view", the Sith offered him a way out that the Jedi refused him.
Considering that the main conflict of Sith and Jedi ideology could be argued to be opposing extremes of selfishness versus selflessness, Anakin could be resentful of being called to make personal sacrifices over and over again for the good of the galaxy. It's a very tempting concept to simply live for yourself without any consideration of those weaker than yourself which is what the Sith philosophy offers. Especially for someone who grew up as a slave and lost many of their loved ones. Of course, that's why the Jedi tended towards recruiting children who didn't have these experiences yet because that was the only way to avoid much of the selfishness inherent in the sentient condition. Lots of critics like to point fingers at them for that but the Republic wouldn't have lasted nearly as long as it did if the Jedi had a schism every century due to dark side corruption like they did in their early history. This was only avoided due to their recruitment policies and as soon as they relaxed them... Anakin happened.
Once again, I think this has something to do with George Lucas misunderstanding what made his creation so great in the first place. The original ideology of the Jedi was control, namely self control. When the prequels came about, George took the writing from the original trilogy and bastardized it. For example: when Yoda tries to find an excuse to dismiss Luke's training, claiming, "he's too old." Even though the real reason is his apparent impatience which coincides with his family history. Another good example comes from Kenobi in regards to the nature of the Force (surrounds, penetrates, and binds us). These two examples became training from infancy to chemical compounds in your bloodstream. The point is the force, in its original adaptation, has no allegiance to one side or the other. It simply existed, and practitioners of the force respected its nature, while darker users abused and tainted it. I'm sorry for the essay, but the underlying issue lies in Anakin's selfishness, and his passion for Padme, rather than the Jedi order as a whole.
Anakin claimed that the Jedi were plotting to overthrow the Republic; Obi-Wan retorted that Palpatine was evil, and it is here where Anakin claims that from his point of view it is the Jedi that are evil. Thus, in context, he is arguing that the Jedi are evil because they were plotting to overthrow the Republic / Chancellor, and he is ignoring that the Jedi suspected- correctly- that Palpatine himself was the one who was trying to overthrow the Republic, and with Anakin's help had in fact succeeded. He does not believe that saving the lives of his loved ones justifies killing the Jedi- and keep in mind this argument occurs after he just strangled his wife in a fit of rage, which itself occurred after he himself spoke of overthrowing the Chancellor- and is merely trying to rationalise his crimes by painting his victims as villainous as this offers a stronger justification. His assertion of the Jedi being evil thus rests on viewing them as power-hungry and plotting to violently remove the legitimate government, which is an idea that Palpatine offered to Anakin earlier in the movie.
He killed toddlers and forcechoked the love of his life who also happened to carry his unborn children with the reason being little more than them being obstacles / making him upset. At this point his view is so utterly subjective that any intellectual or moral argument is as moot as a debate with a young earth creationist.
You mean kinda like ""when heroes counter the villain's philosophical point philosophically" Naruto is one of those series where characters can do that/are written to".@@justsomeguywithadogpicture2622
One thing to note is when he says “the Jedi can deal with the corruption” but I feel such a claim needs evidence because as far as I remember there hasn’t been a top to bottom level of systematically removing corrupt officials. Plus as many pointed out the Jedi are reactive and never proactive helping fight against the poverty and slavery infesting the galaxy at the time. Obi wan’s concession that some were hurt by the Jedi but more are saved is an argument the sith make about how the ends justify the means and so forth.
i think he did. in his mind, the jedi council was standing between him and the life of the woman he loved and their future children. i can't say i wouldn't do the same, given a light saber. that feeling is very real, downright primal. part of why i think that scene works so well. i know people think anakin's transformation into vader was weird and sudden, but i don't think they really stop to think about how mind bendingly cruel his situation is. dude's heart is broken, mind is scrambled- he lost literally everything in the course of one night. so, he just gives up- emotionless. follows orders, kills to feel something. until he's reminded of his humanity by his son. ig you gotta know what that kind of desparation feels like to sympathize, but i do, and so i do.
@@DumplingDoodleUhm no, the Jedi council wasn’t standing between him and Padme. Anakin could have left the Jedi, right? He could have stepped away, joined the GAR another way and helped the Clone Wars there. What he couldn’t have was both a life with Padme and a life as a Jedi. He could have chosen only one, instead he destroyed his chances at both.
@@chey6073 dude he was basically groomed from childhood. Jedi or not a council of weird old people took him away from his family and home during critical years of development to train him. The dynamic borders on abuse, it would not be easy to forsake your entire life’s work, and those who raised you. Again, anakin is a very emotional character. He would not make a calm logical decision like this, he’d get too caught up in his emotions, hence why he bacame a dark Jedi.
@@chey6073 No, his visions had convinced him that his wife was going to die. He also believed that the jedi council was keeping him from having the power to save her. (In the novelization the refusal to grant him the rank of master meant he couldn't access certain forbidden libraries where he thought the secret to save her could be found, in both the movie and novelization he thought he was being held back from achieving the necessary power in the force to save her.)
@@chey6073 You actually aren't allowed to leave the Jedi order without permission of the council, Anakin is basically an indentured servant of the order, of course he could run away but he would likely be labeled a deserter and hunted down for treason, not to mention that deserting would essentially be giving up on saving Padme.
@DumplingDoodle I think Vader's character in terms of overall story and design is really awesome but I don't agree with his ideology lol. Like honestly if the guy survived ROTJ the Rebels would have every right to execute him 💀
Honestly my favorite line in the film which I thought a bit blatant but everyobe seems to miss is the double use of "he's too dangerous to be left alive" as a justification first from Palpatine then from Windu. Which breaks the code of the Jedi. This solidifies Jedi & Sith as one & the same from a principled perspective in Anakin's subjective experience. Further, one is willing to help him save his family, the other has done everything possible to prevent him from accessing the resources needed to alleviate his fears. Palpatine then aligns this desire to save more & more closely with power, he alsp has positioned himself as Anakin's father figure.
And now imagine if the Jedi order was less dogmatic. If they allowed a controlled research of Sith data. If they tried to understand the viewpoint of their opponents.
To be fair, he is never shown nor said to have killed the children. The Jedi watching the surveillance footage remark that not even the younglings survived, that is all. Cui bono? The Jedi strongly believe in "better dead than dark side". They had a motive, saving the children from becoming Sith. The Sith, and Anakin, had no such motive.
Seriously Obi Wan should have turned to the dark side.Sith and Jedi just bully him for studying philosophy.I don't understand most of what he said but insulting him for all those years of studying he probably did is evil.
I always thought of the Jedi as a largely neutral party that concentrates more on damage control and prevention than a benevolent order actively trying to improve things. They're all about balance and peace, but not so much change. I'm not a huge Star Wars fan, though, so I'm probably missing key context and misinterpreting a lot of what I do know. Either way, "I have the moral high ground" is a fucking incredible punchline
That's largely what they're supposed to be. But a key conflict in the prequels is that the Jedi are becoming too closely entwined with the government. They used to be some random cult that helped the republic fight the sith iirc.
@@0BucketMask0 Like in the original trilogy it seemed very eastern religion "there is a lifeforce and mysical types can use it for good and evil, it lives in a taoist state of balance". Where now with games like kotor and expanded universe books and the prequel trilogy it's some kind of abrahamic good vs evil struggle but the force is both good and evil because it makes bad people bad and good people good? It's silly.
Its kinda of strange when you realize Anakin COULD have been talked down, given the right argument. If you validate part of his argument, he feels heard and that was really what he wanted, to not be a pawn.
@@davidwuhrer6704 I feel like Qui-Gon Jin or Mace WIndu totally could've reached him on a moral level and get him to talk instead of fight. Both have more experience with the dark side, know it's corrupting influence, but aren't dogmatic extremists that deny everything that is even the slightest shade of grey.
@@HappyBeezerStudios Mace Windu was the guy who attempted to assassinate an elected politician for the glory of the Jedi order. If that isn't fanaticism, then what is. Qui-Gon was the most level-headed among them. He could have saved the Order _and_ Anakin when nobody else could. Or maybe he would have been expelled.
I don't think the relative morality (or lack thereof) of the Sith was ever a consideration because Anakin was planning on betraying and killing Palpatine to usurp the throne of the Empire and install himself as the ultimate moral authority of the galaxy. Which is a whole other can of worms.
This all fails to consider that Anakin only wanted to use the Sith teachings to save Padme and then he was going to overthrow the Emperor and rule the Galaxy himself. Obi-Wan, by butchering Anakin, destroyed any possibility of Anakin overthrowing the Emperor thus making his subservience to the Sith the only way he survives.
1. Anakin killed Dooku. Even in the heat of battle, he knew that it violated the Jedi way. He then holds remorse and confusion over his actions for they were not honourable. 2. Anakin witnesses Windu, a master of the order no less, attempt to execute Palpatine behind closed doors without any self-reflection or regard. The Jedi are now completely motivated by power, and ofc not losing that power. Anakin realizes this about himself and the order. 3. Anakin intervenes to save the life of Palpatine. Not only does he hold information about saving his wife, he will no longer tolerate repeating his earlier actions and now makes the conscious decision to spare a life rather than take one. Disarming Windu, literally. 4. Anakin takes the lives of the remaining Jedi, fully knowing that he and the order have all abandoned their own teachings and will all do whatever it takes to grab power. 5. Obi-wan of all people was then sent to kill Anakin. Despite raising him as his own, his allegiance was never to him, but to the republic ( Jedi ). Another Jedi master who has chosen the method of the sword. 6. It finally took Luke's refusal to kill the emperor to right these wrongs. Throwing down his weapon and setting an example that no other Jedi could. Selflessly redeeming the order and purifying the light side of the force. Anakin follows in his son's path, the path he has always wanted. Imo it's made clear that the Jedi were not the moral good guys they see themselves as. edit: I also forgot, but Obi-Wan finally realizes that the actions of a Jedi are not to kill. Hence why he finally throws down his weapon in a new hope. Correcting his past mistake of trying to kill Anakin
Even if anakin considers it a moral good to defend sheev the first time sheev was the motivator who drove him to kill dooku. Also the next thing he asks anakin to do is commit a lot more murders. If Anakin’s motivation in killing mace windu was following his heart and saving lives he is critically lacking in self reflection.
@@mopanda81 Anakin didn't kill Windu. He severely injured him but Lightsaber cuts don't bleed. Palpatine killed Windu after he was caught off guard by Anakin's maiming.
Anakin: I see what you're saying, and while yes Yoda was right in that you are a nerd, I murdered children, how would you even rationally try to explain coming back from that? Obi-Wan: Well you've got me there.
Anakin's feelings towards the jedi can be surmised in his relationship with Padme. He hates having to lose his connections to those he loves. When he came to yoda for advice on how to deal with his nightmare he was told to simply be prepared for it to be true and let it happen. He inherently disagrees with some of the core tenets of the jedi. The straw that broke the camels back was him not being made a master whileon the council. He was shown that he was trusted more by the chancellor than he was by his own Jedi peers. I dont think anakin belives the Jedi are "evil" persay. I think anakin was just tired of following a code he doesnt believe in.
There's an argument to be made that from Anakin's perspective the Jedi are evil. They let people die when they could save them. They tell him to let his loved ones die one by one. They do everything to protect their power, not for the benefit of anyone else, not even their own members.
Here is one for ol' Kenobi: Is it still fair to argue that the Jedi were misunderstanding the will of the Force, which itself led to the downfall of the Jedi Order? If the will of the Force was being served, then you can postulate that the Jedi would be protected from a genocide. They were not. Apparently, the will of the Force was for the Jedi Order to fall. Instead of taking a neutral relationship with the Republic and just doing good for the good of it without pledging allegiance, which means also calling out the Republic as well. The Jedi Order bascially became like the police for the Republic, and even became mercenaries for the them. Although the Sith are evil, the will of the Force used them to raze the Jedi Order, crushing even their dogmas (Legends Luke founding a new order with updated philosophy). However, the will of the Force also could not allow such evil to utilize the Force after completing their purpose, and was also destroyed. Both sides saw each others destruction, neither was safe. The Force sent Anakin as an agent of destruction (which is why his story is so tragic) to destroy the Jedi Order as well as the Sith to lay the ground fresh because the will of the Force was not served in its purest form. The Force sent Luke as an agent of creation. That is why Luke was to be the last Jedi or rather the last "force-wielder", so he may bring a new code which is only the will of the Force in its purest form.
Very interesting because George Lucas apparently often stated that Luke was a Jesus-esque figure. It's kinda like God sending in the Romans to take over the Yahwists only for Jesus to come around and create a new order from nothing. Eventually subjugating even the Romans under His teachings long after His passing from this world.
@@michaelkaruza490 either that or the Yin and Yang where Anakin is the dark aspect and Luke is the bright aspect, and together they create balance, in this case to the Force.
This ignores the fact that the Sith deliberately corrupted the Jedi, painting them as hypocrites. To argue the Jedi are equally even with the Sith is to be a pawn and victim of the Sith
Kenobi would never accept the argument. From his perspective, the Jedi _are_ the Force, what is good for the Order must be the will of the Force. The idea that the Order could have gone against the will of the Force is literally unthinkable. Even though the fact is that the Force did allow and enable the Sith to have their revenge.
I would love to see Anakin listen to Obi-Wan’s argument and point out that the Jedi have willingly let slavery and crime persist on planets outside the core worlds, deeming it as outside their responsibility. By doing this they have committed greater evil through apathy and inaction, and by commuting the necessary evil of killing the younglings he wiped the slate clean for his new Empire, in which he can bring peace, freedom and security without some stuck-up order doing nothing with a useless Senate, ruling over the Galaxy as a god. Then of course, Obi-Wan can claim that Anakin is power-hungry, in which they will begin another part of the debate that if the morals of the leader matter if the end result is pure, the ends justify the means, if he can even garuntee that the peace he describes will happen and if eliminating the Jedi over fixing it from within is truly worth it, etc. And when they meet in Episode 4 and Anakin plan is taking effect, Anakin can say: “Now *I* have the moral high ground.”
Obi wan could also bring up that extralegal killing (a crime) and slavery have historically been core pillars of Sith society. Unless of course, Anakin is secretly a progressive redpilled Sith reformist.
To end that slavery would not only directly kill at least hundreds and probably millions of sentient beings, but the resulting destabilization of power structures would kill even more. Unless Jedi insight is enough to tell if those scales balance, which evidence is it is not, then from both a deontological and utilitarian perspective we cannot a priori conclude that Jedi inaction on these points is evil. On the other hand we see no evidence of non-violent and/or gradualist approaches to stamping out slavery and oppression outside of Republic-held worlds, either. Now we must consider whether a lack of action in the face of uncertain outcomes can truly be considered 'evil'. There is always a possibility no matter what one does that some other action will produce a greater good, particularly since Jedi cannot see the future with enough clarity to conclude otherwise. Therefore so long as they are acting according to their stated axioms in some manner, we cannot call their failure to act in some other manner evil. On the other hand, Jedi do not always pursue those axioms and indeed often seem to hold more to accumulated ritual and dogma ("no attachments"), particularly as regarding preservation of the Republic. No real effort to consider Separatist complaints is undertaken by them, nor do they consider acting as arbiters rather than Republic soldiers (at least in Lucas canon). Is this acting according to their axioms? Certainly they are helping some, though at the expense of others, but that is true of almost anything. Rather is their GOAL to help others and serve the will of the force, or is their goal preservation of the power structure into which they fit? At the least they do not KNOW the will of the force at this point in time due to the Dark Side 'clouding' things. And while perhaps their acts are contemplated as for the greater good, we certainly don't SEE any contemplation of alternatives. Contrariwise the Dark Side concealing the will of the Force can be seen as evil in as much as it makes Jedi more likely to behave in a manner contrary to said will, but that assumes that will is itself good. ...and I think that's enough for now.
It's like that one X-Men scene where Xavier tried to dissuade Magneto from killing the human fleet that fires on them with "They're just following orders!" Goddamn it, Xavier. What possibly worse words could you have uttered in front of that particular man.
2:44 A cursory glance at the Sith Code reveals an immense love of freedom, of emotion and of personal excellence. If, nonetheless, Sith hold on to the view that "the strong shall destroy the weak" It's because, just like the Jedi, they are corrupt. But like the Jedi, they deserve a chance at redemption. 2:59 Sith philosophy pursues strength as means to whatever one desires (in Anakin's case, to bring peace, freedom, justice and security to his new empire). Domination as an end in of itself is the trapping of a lazy Sith. The claim that the Sith are "immeasurably worse" then becomes unfounded.
There is one major problem with that argument. It overlooks the malevolent and inherently corruptive nature of the dark side of the force. If they were just a religious order that followed the Sith Code then that would be problematic but redeemable. However, they are dark side users which can be likened to addictive drug abuse in terms of effects. They eventually trade their health and sanity for overwhelming power and use that power for purely selfish reasons per their code which demands domination over the weak. All Sith fall down this path over time as an inevitable consequence of where they draw their power from. Unlike the Sith, the Jedi's use of the force is neither addictive nor corruptive and their code demands that it be used in service of the will of the force which is in fact the collective consciousness of the sentient population of the galaxy which is almost always selfless in nature as it's an individual acting for the greater good. Not all of them follow this ideal perfectly but those that strive to do so are willingly making the choice to rise to their calling throughout their lives rather than being forced into it simply by virtue of using the Force. Taking both of these things into account. I still think it's reasonable to call the Sith immeasurably worse. They are a blight on the galaxy wherever they appear. The Jedi are by no means perfect but at least they can improve whereas the Sith will always be at odds with the will of the force by their very nature.
@@kylepessell1350i raise you that the prophecy of the chosen one was to “bring balance to the force”. Balance is not the annihilation or domination of any one aspect, be that light or dark. Balance means that each ‘side’ share equal footing. At the time of the prequels, the Jedi (as a rough supermajority of exclusively light side users) number in the hundreds or thousands and are backed by governmental and political forces, and have been so for many hundreds of years (idk the dates regarding the older lore). Additionally, the Jedi at any one point have hundreds of children in training to grow the order and replace operational losses. The sith, by contrast, as the dominant party of dark side users by power concentration, number in the single digits, counting force-using agents and non-force using major players among the sith and violating the rule of two (Ventress, Grievous, etc). Several hundred backed by the galactic government vs a handful of exiles is not ‘balance’ between the light and dark sides of the force. Ergo, the Force itself wanted and willed the era of the Jedi to end, or the sith to get buffed to even the playing field.
@@LocalDiscordCatgirl The idea of balance in the force being between light and dark is a common misconception. The 'Dark Side' of the Force isn't actually a natural part of the Force at all but rather a corruption of it which did not originally exist. Use of the Dark Side wounds and weakens the Force even in small quantities, like a virus infecting a greater organism. If there was equal amounts of virus to healthy cells, the organism would certainly not survive. The point of bringing balance to the Force was not to 'buff' the Dark Side but rather eliminating it to bring the Force back to how it used to be before that corruption existed. The Force has never had a Yin-Yang dichotomy with the Dark Side despite what the Sith would have you believe.
@@LocalDiscordCatgirl That is the common presumption of all those sad Sith who are addicted to Dark Side narcotics. Very few of them have a clear idea of the true nature of what they are committing to until it's far too late for them to back out. Respect to Vader/Anakin for being the rare exception to that rule even if they died in the process.
Interesting. Sounds like Obi-Wan is dealing in a lot of absolutes with his (tenuous) argumentation, and as he's said previously, only the Sith deal in absolutes, which therefore casts Obi-Wan as the true Sith in this scenario, and Anakin as the true Jedi in this scenario, which, then, means that if Obi-Wan's argument doesn't hold up, who's evil is a bit of a toss-up, and if Obi-Wan's argument does hold up, Anakin has the moral high ground.
Frankly, this single line is the most damning thing a Jedi has ever said. The domino effect for what leads to the dark side, how stringent they are about who can be a jedi in the first place, their policies for emotional expression. All this stuff is dealing in pretty harsh absolutes
There is one thing to consider, though, and while this doesn't justify the destruction of the Jedi, it does point that this is more of a gray vs very-dark-gray matter rather than a black and white one. First off, while the Sith do use the Dark Side to cause untold amounts of destruction they do not have a monopoly on it, and others such as the Nightsisters utilize it in more constructive ways. Therefore the Force's will to destroy the Dark Side would harm more than just those who wish to abuse their powers for personal gain. Furthermore, the Jedi code effectively harms their own members' mental health, by forcing them to reject emotion entirely and simply meditate their feelings away rather than actually addressing the root causes of those feelings, resulting in a very emotionally unhealthy state. I might like to add that this philosophy of emotional suppression parallels many exploitative religious cults, in fact the suppression of emotion is one of the primary defining factors of such cults. Combine that with their extensive focused education and training from a very young age which could be considered brainwashing, and I believe it is very accurate to say that the Jedi order could be classified as a _dangerous_ cult despite the amount of good they do for the galaxy, due to their effects on their own members. As such, while the Jedi do a lot of good, it is safe to say that they shouldn't be the ones doing it and that a new Force order with far less unhealthy practices should be formed to replace them. Again, though, this doesn't justify the immediate destruction of the Jedi, just a gradual replacement.
There is no evidence that the Force wants to destroy its own Dark Side, only the assertion by the Jedi as an article of faith, confirming the Jedi's intolerance of plurality in order to maintain their monopoly on the Force.
I know the dialogue is memed but Anakin wasn't saying that the Sith are any better. He pointed out how the anti-evil group is also pretty messed up. Even before TCW lore, this was true.
@@PobortzaPl Nice fearmongering you got going there. Just don't go calling anyone who disagrees with you a Nazi, because then we're going to have a problem...
Has anyone tried? The Nazis argued a lot about why they were right and what they did was necessary to save the world from evil. One argument against them was that they are unsophisticated, which is an ad-hominem. Another was that they didn't have the means to do more than kill the occasional unioniser, that they were harmless because they were too ambitious, and easily bought. But history has proven that one disastrously wrong. Basically the arguments against Nazism that I see today are 1) they killed a lot of people, and 2) they lost the war. Accompanied by assertions that "not everything the Nazis did was bad." (Which I don't agree with BTW.) There isn't a lot of substance to that. Nowadays the Nazis are arguing that at least they are looking out for their own people when nobody else does. It seems nobody is bothering to engage the Nazis in debate because their assumptions are so obviously wrong. So obvious that the question "what is wrong with being racist" leaves the left speechless, which the Nazis score as a moral victory for themselves. From that, it almost makes sense that genocide is a form of self-defence. Back in the 1930s the leftists have complained about Nazis killing them, which the Nazis turned around as "everyone is always against us, they won't even let us speak." (It is odd to see violence painted as a free speech issue, but painting themselves as the victims of a conspiracy against them is a favoured tactic of theirs which seems to work for them.) Maybe debating the Nazis would work? Has anyone seriously tried? There is the argument that engaging with them would legitimise their position, but as they see themselves as victims of a conspiracy, not debating them lends credence to there being a conspiracy. Although maybe it is pointless.
0:10 ... Jedi kidnapping kids to mindbreak them and force them to forgo all desire/love/connection to maintain their control of the galaxy over the republic be like:
Obi Wan wasn't as clear here with his arguements as he should have been. No wonder Anakin didn't turn back to the light side.
In fairness, I suppose he was a bit stressed out, what with most of the Jedi being wiped out and being in a duel to the death with the man who he considered practically his brother.
Nah, he was still sad yoda called him a nerd😢
Analyzing all of that while fighting to the death would be impressive..most impressive.
1:05 Presented counterarguments to this point represent a Non Sequitir, specifically an argument ad hominem; the statement being argued with is not Anakin's evilness, rather the Jedi's evilness. As such, any argument that focuses on the deontological and utilitarian evil of Anakin's actions, while valid, is not relevant to the discussion at hand.
Meanwhile this conclusion is supported by the findings of one of the most historically literate and well read Jedi and Sith in Galactic History; namely Master Anya Kuro, Aka Darth Traya. Aka Kreia, who in studying the Jedi code observed its fundamental stagnancy and complicity it the perpetuation of evil, for by prohibiting any form of passion the code prohibited a passion for justice, freedom, etc. In this way the Jedi Code worked to effectively promote evils such as corruption, slavery, organized crime, etc. by virtue of preventing the most individually powerful and often influential individuals in the galaxy from acting against these deontological evils. Also consider the deontological evils implied by the Jedi's abduction of infants via implicit threats of violence, and the subsequent indoctrination of these children into a fundamentally psychologically harmful and cultish paradigm that prohibited individual possessions and connections outside of the Jedi order, while mandateing strict adherence to both the previously enumerated ethical code as well as the mandates of the organization's governing body on penalty of censure or exile, in so doing making escape from the organization's strictures such a heavy burden that only individuals of exceptional external ties such as Count Dooku were able to do so, as demonstrated by the very limited number of individuals known to have left the order in its multiple thousand years of existance. One can thus observe how easily the Jedi may be classified as evil.
This notably does not absolve the Sith, who by virtue of historical connections to the Jedi order, particularly its origins within the First and Second Great Schisms, are best viewed as an antithesis to the Jedi order, the Sith code itself being written in direct response to the axioms of the Jedi Code. In contrast to the Jedi Code's uplififting of stagnancy and emotionlessness, the Sith code uplifts values of personal agency and freedom; this code itself implies no deiontologically amoral axioms, and indeed argues for a far healthier approach to life, and one better suited to the uprooting of systems of systemic oppression. Indeed the healthier approach stated in the axioms of the Sith code is the most common motivation under which Jedi have fallen towards it, and it is fear of this pursuit and rebellion which directly and openly motivates the Jedi's most egregiously evil practices, i.e. the abduction of children and enforcement of cult-like compliance and indoctrination structures.
However, observationally it can be seen that Sith themselves very seldom positively apply this code, even when initially motivated by positive goals. Many accounts of fallen Jedi note positive motivations, love, affection, justice, etc. And yet in spite of these nominal positive motivations, these individuals inevitably appear to turn to the exclusive pursuit of personal power and self interest, forgetting those initial positive goals. While some of this may be rightly attributed to dishonesty in the motivations of these individuals, given the sheer number of cases and lack of supporting evidence it is intellectually dishonest to attribute all such incidents to dishonesty.
By contrast, the teachings of the Jedi themselves provide a more likely alternative explanation, that it is the will of the force itself which leads users of Bogan (using the archaic term as to separate this discussion from Jedi Rhetoric) to consistently turn toward malicious and unconcerned self interest, a gross violation of basic values of self determination and personal agency; additionally in light of this observation one can rightly attribute a plurality of deaths enacted via the actions of the Sith to the "will of the force," as can one attribute the comparable acts of genocide enacted by the Jedi themselves, who throughout their history have repeatedly acted with the explicitly stated intention of "destroying the Sith," openly championing the antihalation of a religious and cultural group with which they have ethical disagreements, up to and including the total annihilation of the original Sith Species, starting with the rendering of their original homeworld barren via orbital bombardment. These events are themselves deontologically evil according to, as you say, any rational individual. Furthermore, we can attribute utilitarian and altruistic evil to the "will of the force" itself, as noted above, and thus via the Jedi tenet of service to the "Will of the force," to the Jedi as well. Perhaps surprisingly, this axiom of service in itself violates egoistic models of consequentialism in that it mandates service to an outside, amorphous power over personal self interest, in addition to mandating violation of the egoist right of other individuals to pursue personal self interest.
Thus we may observe, based upon both their present actions, their historic actions, and their fundamental axioms the Jedi, rather uniquely, manage to violate not only deontological ethics, but also central axioms of utilitarian, altruistic, and egoistic teleological ethics, thus proving evil under both major branches of normative ethical theory.
@@devingendron2287
My point of view the Jedi are evil...more evil than killing children.....and he is doing this because he thinks the Jedi are more evil than that.... Hard not to compare the two when he says from his point of view....
In defense of the Jedi, consider that over the previous 1000 years they were being unknowingly manipulated by the dark side itself, and the Sith users. This is because unbeknownst to the Jedi, there was a secret Sith temple buried beneath the capital building. And the Jedi Temple was built near that buried temple, so that was subject to its influence. This is not disavowal of every wrong thing that the Jedi did or took part in. But it is saying that they were manipulated. That should at least offer some empathy toward them.
"You underestimate my thesis!" 😂
This should be part of the future video in the thesis saga.
Don't try it...😢
Anakin: "From my point of view the Jedi are evil!"
Obi Wan: "Anakin, instead of a fight to the death, might we not have a civilized debate instead? Give the Emperor a call, and I will do the same with Master Yoda. We will meet on the moon of Concordia, with Mandalorian mediators, as they have reason to dislike both the Jedi and Sith orders and thus can be trusted to hold a neutral ground. Yourself and the Emperor will be seated on one end of the table while Yoda and I are seated on the other, and we will discuss the merits and flaws of your thesis."
Anakin: "Debate club is for nerds."
Meanwhile, on Coruscant, the fight between Yoda and the Emperor pauses:
Emperor Palpatine, turning to a Coruscant Guardsmen: "Prepare my shuttle, I sense Lord Vader is in danger of cringe."
Yoda: "I agree. To Mustafar we will go. Shove Obi Wan into a locker we must."
Civil discussion of heroes
Dangerous times these are. Friends enemies become, they must. Cringe, Obi-Wan is
Anakin we must save
Indeed we hace, save him from the nerd side we must
@@KARKATELCESARENVIADODESA-pv4yd Academic discourse of morally outstanding individuals
xm,./vnjzxcvnzxc/lkjnvzds/klnvds/KLnvdSLKnc/ This whole comment was made by that last line. XD
Spoiler warning
This entire thing was for the "I have the moral high ground" joke wasn't it
Pretty much.
Incredible dedication
Anakin: …You underestimate my emotions.
@@sealsaregood5146 honestly? Worth it imo.
Fuck you for spoiling the punchline for a shitty useless comment that added no value and just exists for atrention. Yeah no shit it was just for that sherlock
i love how the second half of the video is anakin silently attacking obi-wan in what i can only assume to be confusion as his master turns into a goddamn protocol droid right in front of him and starts spouting the world's longest copypasta
He's trying to stop him from talking so damn long.
@@nickfury5536 Anakin : make it *stop!*
@@fadillah6014 I CAN'T!
@nickfury5536 And then he decided to have revenge by writing his thesis
Anakin going so long without talking over people is the least realistic part of this entry in the sealverse.
"Now i see why Yoda called you a giant nerd."
Coming from the guy who wrote his doctoral thesis on Darth Plagueis the Wise.
I really wish that in the movie he just responded with “anakin literally the first thing palpatine had you do was murder one of your bosses and then massacre an entire religion’s worth of children”.
To be fair they were kidnaped, indoctrinated into cult and then taught to do same when they grow up. Those were mercy killings
@@ragnaros7889 you know you can undo brain washing right ?
it's long and it take a lot of therapy but that's still better than murdering children
Yeah. Honestly, I hate Anakins turn to the dark side. It had to happen since it was a prequel, and order 66 itself is fantastic, but without just saying the dark side of the force corrupted him, it's too big of a fall.
@@funwithcoding2818 All jokes aside he got corrupted the moment he joined Jedi, he just changed one radical side to another. It would be so cool to watch him actually balance the force instead of trying to destroy one of sides
@@ragnaros7889Sure if Palapatene was a morally good person. Kids are malleable, he could have convinced them to join his side or have Anakin do it for him. The point isn't to kill them cause the Jedi Order is to engrained into their minds, it's because if they did live, they could potentially overthrow his rule as Emperor of the galaxy.
"Know about that, you would not. Nerd." is my new favorite yoda quote.
Irritated from you I am. A deathstick I crave.
Unfortunately Yoda's ban on book reading prevented Anakin from learning, hence he does not understand what Oblivious-To-Planets Kenobi is saying and has to continue violence.
Oblivious-To-Planets Kenobi ✋💀
i feel like this should be pointed out first at the start of any debate on Anakins actions, how tf was he supposed to know what was morally correct when the only framework he was every subject to was deontological which is a normative ethical theory that states that the morality of an action should be based on whether the action itself is right or wrong under a series of rules. The boy was witness to countless wrongs by a heck ton of Jedi and by the Jedi as a whole, and the only things he know about the Sith is what the Jedi told him and therefore is is likely to then ignore everything they told him as they are obviously strongly biased and therefore approached Palpatine, a person whop he had seen only do good so far, and therefore by association the Sith as a good person, worthy of a chance. It was only when it was too late for him that he began to realise his mistake, but at that point he was finally set free of the emotionless state of the Jedi order and had instead moved on to the other extreme of being controlled by said emotions. He was purposefully taught not to read and was prohibited from reading i.e.. he was prohibited from gaining and finding information on his own outside of the Jedi's grasp and control, where they could control the narrative. They are the ones that turned all their subjects into psychopaths, and therefore they are the ones to blame.
If Yoda didn't ban books, Anakain could've learned the Tragedy of Darth Plageious the Wise from a less biased narrator.
@@HappyBeezerStudios I dont know, it seems to me like he has a solid grasp on the dichotomy deeply rooted in the tale.
“Interesting insight Kenobi. I have organized a response to your objection to my proposition that the Jedi are evil. You underestimate my powerpoint.”
Props to Anakin for letting him speak the entire fight, EVEN while fighting. 👌
Anakin is a strong believer in free speech. In his view if the empire never listens to reasonable criticism and dissenting voices then how will they know who to supress?
...While over lava
@@gullyfeather4330 Oh no. I can just imagine a conversation between Vader and Dennis
"We're living in a dictatorship! A self perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes---"
_draws lightsaber_ "SILENCE."
"Help! Help! I'm being repre-- *hack**cough*" _collapses_
@@milasjavellanai understood that reference
He finally let Obiwan speak
I don't know, I feel Obi's arguments could have been better explained by "Well then you are lost!"
I feel that covers in far greater detail every aspect of this conflict.
Damn, you're right.
@@sealsaregood5146 lmao! Keep making these!
I like the way he put it in Backstroke of the West
"Friend you are crazy."
And if you haven't seen Backstroke of the West I highly recommend it.
Don’t try it.
@@truthhertz10Considering that in the thick of battle, thoughts become muddled and you are mostly relying on instinct to win and survive, making good philosophical points takes a backseat.
Obi Wan did not consider that Anakin is an existentialist, who values the freedom to do otherwise as a higher axiom than any absolutist rule-based ethics. Anakin is still in the wrong from this perspective, of course, since killing people (especially children) cuts off their freedom to do something with the rest of their lives, and being a fascist is very anti-freedom also. But Obi-Wan still didn't address this.
This is what happens when you only consider the dogmatic world view of the Jedi.
Plus, Yoda instituting a rule banning reading probably ddn't help.
Well, it is kinda hard to address every single point from every single aspect in the middle of a light sabre duel.
Checkmate I'm an existentialist and a rule utilitarianian
Or maybe the Sith represent hyper-individualism and the Jedi represent hyper-conformity. Don’t try to over complicate things. George Lucas was a socialist and intended Star Wars to be a commentary on imperialism and were allegories to the Vietnam War and Middle Eastern Wars.
@@Zelink108 That argument seems a little weak since in the OT the Jedi that we do see are spread out. Sure, this is to partially avoid detection, but even in the Prequel trilogy, you have this the concept of Anakin being the "chosen one who will bring balance to the force". Which he kinda does by removing the Jedi order's power base from the Galactic Republic.
Anakin: From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!
Obi Wan: The Sith like sand. If you continue down this path, so will you.
Anakin: You're lying!
Obi Wan: Search your feelings. You know it to be true.
Anakin: ...Goddammit.
*Roll credits*
I firmly believe this would have worked.
Still better than the sequels
@@eineperson9849 at this point what isnt better than the sequels?
@@Tan2bia chlamydia?
@@Tan2bia The Flash movie 2023
Major problem here. He never claimed the Jedi are _more_ evil than the Sith, only that they are evil.
Well from his action of joining the Sith we can only assume that he thinks the Sith is better than the Jedi order
@@amogoose2971 Why? He could see them as equally evil or the difference being negligible or any variety of somesuch and still join the sith for rational reasons like saving Padme, even if his own actions in the end destroyed everything he holds dear.
Though the way he says this and also the part about bringing peace clearly puts his stance in opposition to the Jedi
@@amogoose2971 he joined the sith to save his wife and future children. he was acting in his own interests. though in the sense that the jedi won't cooperate with him and won't even speak to him about padme, i guess he does view the sith as better.
@@DumplingDoodle he views the sith as better for him, but we don't know if he views them as better in general.
Major problem here: your argument depends on the existence of a middle ground that doesn't exist in this context.
It's either palpatine or the jedi. They are not going to coexist.
So pulling a "no u" here doesn't mean "oh I never said palpatine isn't evil", it means "I picked palpatine over the jedi"
Star Wars needs more philosophical discussions.
If that's a request I think I can accomodate.
Check out the KOTOR games. They’re full of them.
@@master0fthearts894 isn't that mostly darth Ayn Rand lecturing you
@@henrybelman7424
Say you don't know fuck-all about Kreia without saying you don't know fuck-all about Kreia...
Honestly, I would pay a lot of money to see a SWTOR-Era Sith and Jedi, and maybe a Knight of Zakuul, have a genuine moral debate with a Prequel-Era Sith and Jedi.
Just, Malgus and Satele Shan, and occasionally maybe Senya Tirall popping in, sitting in a room with Palpatine, and Yoda. And they just start discussing the moral virtues and pitfalls of the various Codes.
Obi Wan's arguments were sound, however, I feel as though his conclusion was weaker than it could have been. He probably could have a more emphatic closing argument. Potentially involving removing three of Anakin's limbs and leaving him dangerously close to the lava?
Damn, you're right, that would have been way better
neutral.
What Obi-wan failed to understand, and thus failed to address, is that Anakian's problems with the Jedi are rooted in a virtue ethics framework, not a deontological or utalitarian one. The discussion of corruption nearly gets there, but because virtue ethics is a framework the Jedi haven't taught it's not one Obi-Wan is prepared to consider.
The individual members of the Jedi Council are more concerned with their deonotological framework that they fail to consider their own selves in the equation, often leading to what would be identified by most outsiders as an evil act, even if some might agree it was aiming for a greater good. This deeply disturbs Anakin and makes him distrust Jedi on a personal level. Meanwhile Palpatine is shown over and over to be a good man and one Anakin comes to trust. When Anakin comes to learn who Palpatine is, his first instinct is to threaten him, but then if the Jedi are evil and Palpatine is offering him something good, perhaps the philosophy the Jedi have labeled evil isn't so bad?
Without a real understanding of Virtue Ethics, or of Palpatine's personal character, Anakin falls back on the deontological framework as the only moral framework he knows. The Jedi are evil and therefore must be destroyed.
Finally, I am quite proud of being a nerd so calling me one is not only going to be ineffective but a waste of everyone's time.
Counterpoint: It's not a waste of my time if I want to do it and enjoy doing it
*NNNNNNNEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRDDD*
@@herec0mestheCh33f This is the problem of frameworks all over again, as I was only considering a framework where a productive discussion was the aim. With personal enjoyment entering the equation I must concede your counterpoint is a fair one. I hope you took immense pleasure in your mockery.
*NNNNNEEEERRRRRRDDDDD*
@@moonblaze2713 I did, and I appreciate that you could appreciate that
You fuckin' nerd
I AIN READIN ALLAT
Obi Wan in the shower 2 years later be like
This needs to be remade with the better voices from recent videos. It has the potential to match Anakin's thesis on the dichotomy inherent within The Story of Darth Plageus the Wise.
I agree this is overdue to a remaster, I'll get around to it
@@sealsaregood5146I have a suggestion for the remaster. A collab with the youtuber IARESMART. The collab will be a dubbed recreation of the Mustafar duel with your Obi Wan vs their Anakin from their "Anakin and Obi Wan have a fight". A nerdy hyoer analytical Obi Wan vs a logic-defying stubborn mental-gymnastics-using Anakin. An one-sided debate presented as an evenly matched discussion. What do you think?
Most evil things Jedi did:
Genocide on the Sith
Kidnap some kids.
Average things the Sith did.
Murder because they felt like it.
Torture because they felt like it.
Anarchy because they felt like it.
Kidnaping children because they felt like it.
Betrayal because they felt like it.
Corrupting others because they felt like it.
You can count the exceptions on both sides with one hand.
ah you forgot one
- Turning to the dark side due to feelings
And didn’t the sith literally reorganize themselves multiple times because they had a massive problem of being unable to stop killing each other for power and promotions. Until Bane decided that was just a feature instead of a bug… After killing almost every sith.
Actually Sith don't train children, they only train adults
Wait, what about maul, then? I thought he, as a child was hand picked by palpatine.
@@kevinskywalker5539 he was different he was just a tool to be used and thrown away
Care for ethics, Yoda does not. A penchant for tax fraud, he has.
Nice argument, Obi-Wan, it would be a shame if someone copy pasted it with a nerd emoji attached...
_"Why, that would constitute a mere ad hominen, failing to illumina... Ah, fuck it. I'd rather spend the rest of my days alone in the desert than try to reason with someone whose mental faculties are rivalled by those of a bantha."_
You could unironically turn this in as an assignment in an ethics class
You'd fail, of course.
Aww I appreciate Obi trying to understand where Anakin is coming from! I don't think he's a nerd just...well a nerd *but* and ethical and considerate one!
He's a nerd, and being a nerd is (deontologically and maybe consequentially) good.
I love that Anakin's response in this movie is literally just "That's just your opinion lmao". It's so funny. And a funny thing too I finished watching the prequels for the first time two days ago
“That’s just like your opinion man”
Ironic, he starts his monologue with "From my point of view the Jedi are evil"
So it's not just a fight of lightsabers between two warriors, but also a fight of philosophy between two intellectuals.
I think it's pretty clear that Anakin was acting on misinformation, which is the actual issue Obi-Wan failed to address. Alternatively, Obi-Wan was.
"From my perspective, the Jedi are evil!'
"Wait, really? Sit with me, tell me what you've discovered, and let me help."
(One long explanation later.)
"You know, Anakin, I was not aware we ran the galactic slave trade, but that explains where we found all those younglings. May I suggest that the Jedi *and* the Sith are both evil, and we should address both of those issues together? We can supplant Palpatine, putting Padme in charge, then build a new order of force-wielders to deal with salvaging upright Jedi and killing the rest. Oh, except, the younglings..."
"Killed themselves rather than join the Dark Side. In my defense, I was not aware of that bit of brainwashing when I attempted to persuade them."
"Well shit."
"That's what I said. Anyway, need to save Padme, so I can't kill Palpatine yet."
"Anakin, the Jedi and Sith both make Holocrons by the bucketload. I'd bet my life there's a way to heal people hidden somewhere in the temple."
"...Huh. Alright, let's go usurp the newly built throne. Prince Consort Skywalker sounds much better than Dath Vader, to be honest. Terribly edgy. Glad we talked this through--you're getting better at this diplomacy thing."
> Roll Credits
> "Episode 4, A NEW HOPE. LUKE SKYWALKER, age 18, begins his training as an IMPERIAL FORCE KNIGHT alongside his twin sister..."
The Jedis were actually fully aware of the galactic slave trade going on but didn't give a sh,
Also wouldn't it be, republic force knight instead? Imperial implies that they are a dictatorship.
(Also the Jedis don't kidnapped younglings like the sith they just let the parents know that being a Jedi is a good path and usage of theyr abilities compared to the Darkside alternative.)
Damn thats just too good
The Jedi for one don’t run the galactic slave trade, in addition, the zygerrian trade was specifically enabled by palpatine for his plans. The Jedi also don’t kidnap children, the youngling program was completely consensual and even the grand master didn’t have access to the names of the candidates until time came to go get them.
If only Kenobi hadn't been a fanatical Jedi.
If we take the prequels to be deeper than they are and presume Vader actually meant what he said and wasn't just lashing out, we can deduce that the Jedi limiting his capabilities, both in terms of self-actualization and protecting the ones he loves were what he considered evil.
The fact that the Sith made him commit worse evils doesn't change this, after all, it's "from his point of view", the Sith offered him a way out that the Jedi refused him.
Considering that the main conflict of Sith and Jedi ideology could be argued to be opposing extremes of selfishness versus selflessness, Anakin could be resentful of being called to make personal sacrifices over and over again for the good of the galaxy. It's a very tempting concept to simply live for yourself without any consideration of those weaker than yourself which is what the Sith philosophy offers. Especially for someone who grew up as a slave and lost many of their loved ones. Of course, that's why the Jedi tended towards recruiting children who didn't have these experiences yet because that was the only way to avoid much of the selfishness inherent in the sentient condition. Lots of critics like to point fingers at them for that but the Republic wouldn't have lasted nearly as long as it did if the Jedi had a schism every century due to dark side corruption like they did in their early history. This was only avoided due to their recruitment policies and as soon as they relaxed them... Anakin happened.
Once again, I think this has something to do with George Lucas misunderstanding what made his creation so great in the first place. The original ideology of the Jedi was control, namely self control. When the prequels came about, George took the writing from the original trilogy and bastardized it. For example: when Yoda tries to find an excuse to dismiss Luke's training, claiming, "he's too old." Even though the real reason is his apparent impatience which coincides with his family history. Another good example comes from Kenobi in regards to the nature of the Force (surrounds, penetrates, and binds us). These two examples became training from infancy to chemical compounds in your bloodstream. The point is the force, in its original adaptation, has no allegiance to one side or the other. It simply existed, and practitioners of the force respected its nature, while darker users abused and tainted it. I'm sorry for the essay, but the underlying issue lies in Anakin's selfishness, and his passion for Padme, rather than the Jedi order as a whole.
@@DungeonDrugDealersAre they mutually exclusive?
Anakin claimed that the Jedi were plotting to overthrow the Republic; Obi-Wan retorted that Palpatine was evil, and it is here where Anakin claims that from his point of view it is the Jedi that are evil.
Thus, in context, he is arguing that the Jedi are evil because they were plotting to overthrow the Republic / Chancellor, and he is ignoring that the Jedi suspected- correctly- that Palpatine himself was the one who was trying to overthrow the Republic, and with Anakin's help had in fact succeeded.
He does not believe that saving the lives of his loved ones justifies killing the Jedi- and keep in mind this argument occurs after he just strangled his wife in a fit of rage, which itself occurred after he himself spoke of overthrowing the Chancellor- and is merely trying to rationalise his crimes by painting his victims as villainous as this offers a stronger justification.
His assertion of the Jedi being evil thus rests on viewing them as power-hungry and plotting to violently remove the legitimate government, which is an idea that Palpatine offered to Anakin earlier in the movie.
That's exactly what he meant.
Imagine if this is canon: Obi-Wan literally counters Anakin with this.
He killed toddlers and forcechoked the love of his life who also happened to carry his unborn children with the reason being little more than them being obstacles / making him upset.
At this point his view is so utterly subjective that any intellectual or moral argument is as moot as a debate with a young earth creationist.
Honestly, I love when heroes actually counter the villain's philosophy rather than just "You're insane! We have to fight now"
@@anxiousearth680kinda like Naruto
You mean kinda like ""when heroes counter the villain's philosophical point philosophically" Naruto is one of those series where characters can do that/are written to".@@justsomeguywithadogpicture2622
The power of the villain monologue
One thing to note is when he says “the Jedi can deal with the corruption” but I feel such a claim needs evidence because as far as I remember there hasn’t been a top to bottom level of systematically removing corrupt officials. Plus as many pointed out the Jedi are reactive and never proactive helping fight against the poverty and slavery infesting the galaxy at the time. Obi wan’s concession that some were hurt by the Jedi but more are saved is an argument the sith make about how the ends justify the means and so forth.
Yes, the facts don't support his arguments.
It’s funny cuz anakin didn’t actually believe the Jedi are evil. He just had to convince himself they are
i think he did. in his mind, the jedi council was standing between him and the life of the woman he loved and their future children. i can't say i wouldn't do the same, given a light saber. that feeling is very real, downright primal. part of why i think that scene works so well.
i know people think anakin's transformation into vader was weird and sudden, but i don't think they really stop to think about how mind bendingly cruel his situation is. dude's heart is broken, mind is scrambled- he lost literally everything in the course of one night. so, he just gives up- emotionless. follows orders, kills to feel something. until he's reminded of his humanity by his son. ig you gotta know what that kind of desparation feels like to sympathize, but i do, and so i do.
@@DumplingDoodleUhm no, the Jedi council wasn’t standing between him and Padme. Anakin could have left the Jedi, right? He could have stepped away, joined the GAR another way and helped the Clone Wars there. What he couldn’t have was both a life with Padme and a life as a Jedi. He could have chosen only one, instead he destroyed his chances at both.
@@chey6073 dude he was basically groomed from childhood. Jedi or not a council of weird old people took him away from his family and home during critical years of development to train him. The dynamic borders on abuse, it would not be easy to forsake your entire life’s work, and those who raised you.
Again, anakin is a very emotional character. He would not make a calm logical decision like this, he’d get too caught up in his emotions, hence why he bacame a dark Jedi.
@@chey6073
No, his visions had convinced him that his wife was going to die. He also believed that the jedi council was keeping him from having the power to save her. (In the novelization the refusal to grant him the rank of master meant he couldn't access certain forbidden libraries where he thought the secret to save her could be found, in both the movie and novelization he thought he was being held back from achieving the necessary power in the force to save her.)
@@chey6073 You actually aren't allowed to leave the Jedi order without permission of the council, Anakin is basically an indentured servant of the order, of course he could run away but he would likely be labeled a deserter and hunted down for treason, not to mention that deserting would essentially be giving up on saving Padme.
Obi-Wan did not consider that Anakin deems himself an Ubermench and creates his own morality
Imagine if Anakin just jumped into the lava halfway through Obi Wans analysis of his statement 😄
“Fuck this shit, I’m out!” -Anakin Skywalker.
average essay when the teacher lets you pick the topic:
"I understand why Yoda thought you were a nerd."
He may have the (moral) high ground, but Obi-Wan is still the one burning. 😂
not for long
The jedi's actions are clear they allowed people like Anakin to remain in slavery.
I really never understood the edge lords who really try to say the Jedi are so corrupt that the sith are gooder. Thank you Obi-Wan.
you have darth vader as your pfp something doesn't add up here
@DumplingDoodle I think Vader's character in terms of overall story and design is really awesome but I don't agree with his ideology lol. Like honestly if the guy survived ROTJ the Rebels would have every right to execute him 💀
@@strikerfrost7222 sounds like something Vader would say. Your mind tricks will not work on me!
@@DumplingDoodle Vader would definitely say the Rebels have a right to execute him 😅
@@strikerfrost7222 no vader would go *hoooo-puhhh* a couple times and then force choke them all for their arrogance
Honestly my favorite line in the film which I thought a bit blatant but everyobe seems to miss is the double use of "he's too dangerous to be left alive" as a justification first from Palpatine then from Windu. Which breaks the code of the Jedi.
This solidifies Jedi & Sith as one & the same from a principled perspective in Anakin's subjective experience. Further, one is willing to help him save his family, the other has done everything possible to prevent him from accessing the resources needed to alleviate his fears. Palpatine then aligns this desire to save more & more closely with power, he alsp has positioned himself as Anakin's father figure.
And now imagine if the Jedi order was less dogmatic. If they allowed a controlled research of Sith data. If they tried to understand the viewpoint of their opponents.
"From my point of view, the Jedi are evil" - says Anakin hours after killing dozens of children
To be fair, he is never shown nor said to have killed the children. The Jedi watching the surveillance footage remark that not even the younglings survived, that is all.
Cui bono? The Jedi strongly believe in "better dead than dark side". They had a motive, saving the children from becoming Sith. The Sith, and Anakin, had no such motive.
Anakin "I understand why Yoda thought you were a nerd"
me "Welp! Cut him, Obi. Cut him good."
Seriously Obi Wan should have turned to the dark side.Sith and Jedi just bully him for studying philosophy.I don't understand most of what he said but insulting him for all those years of studying he probably did is evil.
"Then he shoved me in a locker"
That was the best line.
As a dude with a philosophy degree, I say, "From my point of view, this is perfect!"
As another dude with a philosophy degree, I understand why I shouldn't be allowed to make movies :P.
@@VestinVestin No, you should be allowed to make movies.
This is where Anakin gets his inspiration to write the thesis on Darth Plageus The Wise. Obi-Wan taught him well...😂
"Anakin! Chancellor Palpatine is evil!"
"Nuh uh!"
"The f*ck you mean 'nuh uh'?!"
I always thought of the Jedi as a largely neutral party that concentrates more on damage control and prevention than a benevolent order actively trying to improve things. They're all about balance and peace, but not so much change. I'm not a huge Star Wars fan, though, so I'm probably missing key context and misinterpreting a lot of what I do know.
Either way, "I have the moral high ground" is a fucking incredible punchline
That's largely what they're supposed to be. But a key conflict in the prequels is that the Jedi are becoming too closely entwined with the government.
They used to be some random cult that helped the republic fight the sith iirc.
@@anxiousearth680 it's been a long time since I've seen the films, but I think I remember that!
the jedi and the force have changed meaning and relationships a lot over the years so you’re not wrong to be confused
@@mopanda81 I actually appreciate that lmao, thanks. I hate feeling dumb so it's good to know I'm not a total dipshit here.
@@0BucketMask0 Like in the original trilogy it seemed very eastern religion "there is a lifeforce and mysical types can use it for good and evil, it lives in a taoist state of balance".
Where now with games like kotor and expanded universe books and the prequel trilogy it's some kind of abrahamic good vs evil struggle but the force is both good and evil because it makes bad people bad and good people good? It's silly.
Its kinda of strange when you realize Anakin COULD have been talked down, given the right argument. If you validate part of his argument, he feels heard and that was really what he wanted, to not be a pawn.
If only Kenobi hadn't been a Jedi fanatic.
@@davidwuhrer6704 I feel like Qui-Gon Jin or Mace WIndu totally could've reached him on a moral level and get him to talk instead of fight. Both have more experience with the dark side, know it's corrupting influence, but aren't dogmatic extremists that deny everything that is even the slightest shade of grey.
@@HappyBeezerStudios Mace Windu was the guy who attempted to assassinate an elected politician for the glory of the Jedi order. If that isn't fanaticism, then what is.
Qui-Gon was the most level-headed among them. He could have saved the Order _and_ Anakin when nobody else could. Or maybe he would have been expelled.
Anakin got me with his counter-argument. So convincing.
Obi-Wan: Clearly you haven't thought about THE DICHOTOMY!
Anakin: ...
"I understand why Yoda thought you were a nerd" (Revenge of the Sith video game Anakin ending)
(read this in Hondo Onaka's voice)
And THIS my young friend is precisely why we call Kenobi the master of trolling😂
Honestly it was hard to watch how effortlessly Obi Wan cut the legs off of Anakin’s moral argument.
That joke was bad and you should feel bad! :P
Obi Wan: Goes on a winded rant about the Jedi order.
Anakin: Okay f this I’m done (jumps into lava)
More philosophy should be discussed with Duel of Fates in the background.
I'm not sure that this is the same person who only minutes earlier made the self-defeating absolute claim that "Only Siths deal in absolutes."
I have a strange feeling that "I have the moral high ground" was the whole motivation for the video...
Now I want one where his argument works
I don't think the relative morality (or lack thereof) of the Sith was ever a consideration because Anakin was planning on betraying and killing Palpatine to usurp the throne of the Empire and install himself as the ultimate moral authority of the galaxy. Which is a whole other can of worms.
Usurping your master is pretty standard for sith lords. It comes with the job.
@@feuerling but only since the establishment of the rule of two
This all fails to consider that Anakin only wanted to use the Sith teachings to save Padme and then he was going to overthrow the Emperor and rule the Galaxy himself. Obi-Wan, by butchering Anakin, destroyed any possibility of Anakin overthrowing the Emperor thus making his subservience to the Sith the only way he survives.
Saying "We must examine each of these arguments in turn, Anakin" during a dramatic fight has to be the funniest thing ever
Anakin: “ you lost me at ‘Anakin I find your assertion that the Jedi Order…”
Obi-Wan: “Than you are LOST”
Anakain: "Yeah, that's what I just said!"
Verbal boss battles in KOTOR 2 be like
1. Anakin killed Dooku. Even in the heat of battle, he knew that it violated the Jedi way. He then holds remorse and confusion over his actions for they were not honourable.
2. Anakin witnesses Windu, a master of the order no less, attempt to execute Palpatine behind closed doors without any self-reflection or regard.
The Jedi are now completely motivated by power, and ofc not losing that power. Anakin realizes this about himself and the order.
3. Anakin intervenes to save the life of Palpatine. Not only does he hold information about saving his wife, he will no longer tolerate repeating his earlier actions and now makes the conscious decision to spare a life rather than take one. Disarming Windu, literally.
4. Anakin takes the lives of the remaining Jedi, fully knowing that he and the order have all abandoned their own teachings and will all do whatever it takes to grab power.
5. Obi-wan of all people was then sent to kill Anakin. Despite raising him as his own, his allegiance was never to him, but to the republic ( Jedi ). Another Jedi master who has chosen the method of the sword.
6. It finally took Luke's refusal to kill the emperor to right these wrongs. Throwing down his weapon and setting an example that no other Jedi could. Selflessly redeeming the order and purifying the light side of the force. Anakin follows in his son's path, the path he has always wanted.
Imo it's made clear that the Jedi were not the moral good guys they see themselves as.
edit: I also forgot, but Obi-Wan finally realizes that the actions of a Jedi are not to kill. Hence why he finally throws down his weapon in a new hope. Correcting his past mistake of trying to kill Anakin
Luke fits more as Jesus. He is not the chosen one in-story, but he fits now that you made me think about it.
And in what way are the sith the good guys tho?
Even if anakin considers it a moral good to defend sheev the first time sheev was the motivator who drove him to kill dooku. Also the next thing he asks anakin to do is commit a lot more murders. If Anakin’s motivation in killing mace windu was following his heart and saving lives he is critically lacking in self reflection.
@@mopanda81 bro calm down
@@mopanda81 Anakin didn't kill Windu. He severely injured him but Lightsaber cuts don't bleed. Palpatine killed Windu after he was caught off guard by Anakin's maiming.
"Anakin, I'm giving you a failing grade in Jedi Ethics!"
"Obi-Wan! YOU'VE FAILED ME FOR THE LAST TIME!"
Obi-Wan Kantobi's Critique of Pure Sith
It's over Anakin, I'm the good guy.
Anakin: I see what you're saying, and while yes Yoda was right in that you are a nerd, I murdered children, how would you even rationally try to explain coming back from that?
Obi-Wan: Well you've got me there.
3:18
YOU UNDERESTIMATE MY THESIS!
the big problem is that when anakin needed them the most, the jedi were essentially that guy that says "bro, have you tried not feeling depressed?"
This one needs a remaster.
Anakin's feelings towards the jedi can be surmised in his relationship with Padme. He hates having to lose his connections to those he loves. When he came to yoda for advice on how to deal with his nightmare he was told to simply be prepared for it to be true and let it happen. He inherently disagrees with some of the core tenets of the jedi. The straw that broke the camels back was him not being made a master whileon the council. He was shown that he was trusted more by the chancellor than he was by his own Jedi peers. I dont think anakin belives the Jedi are "evil" persay. I think anakin was just tired of following a code he doesnt believe in.
There's an argument to be made that from Anakin's perspective the Jedi are evil. They let people die when they could save them. They tell him to let his loved ones die one by one. They do everything to protect their power, not for the benefit of anyone else, not even their own members.
This entire argument can be countered with one word: hypocrites.
Better to be a nerd with all his limbs than a jock with none
Obi-Wan was trained in the precise of being impressively verbose
Here is one for ol' Kenobi:
Is it still fair to argue that the Jedi were misunderstanding the will of the Force, which itself led to the downfall of the Jedi Order? If the will of the Force was being served, then you can postulate that the Jedi would be protected from a genocide. They were not. Apparently, the will of the Force was for the Jedi Order to fall. Instead of taking a neutral relationship with the Republic and just doing good for the good of it without pledging allegiance, which means also calling out the Republic as well. The Jedi Order bascially became like the police for the Republic, and even became mercenaries for the them.
Although the Sith are evil, the will of the Force used them to raze the Jedi Order, crushing even their dogmas (Legends Luke founding a new order with updated philosophy). However, the will of the Force also could not allow such evil to utilize the Force after completing their purpose, and was also destroyed. Both sides saw each others destruction, neither was safe.
The Force sent Anakin as an agent of destruction (which is why his story is so tragic) to destroy the Jedi Order as well as the Sith to lay the ground fresh because the will of the Force was not served in its purest form.
The Force sent Luke as an agent of creation. That is why Luke was to be the last Jedi or rather the last "force-wielder", so he may bring a new code which is only the will of the Force in its purest form.
Very interesting because George Lucas apparently often stated that Luke was a Jesus-esque figure. It's kinda like God sending in the Romans to take over the Yahwists only for Jesus to come around and create a new order from nothing. Eventually subjugating even the Romans under His teachings long after His passing from this world.
@@michaelkaruza490 either that or the Yin and Yang where Anakin is the dark aspect and Luke is the bright aspect, and together they create balance, in this case to the Force.
This ignores the fact that the Sith deliberately corrupted the Jedi, painting them as hypocrites. To argue the Jedi are equally even with the Sith is to be a pawn and victim of the Sith
Kenobi would never accept the argument. From his perspective, the Jedi _are_ the Force, what is good for the Order must be the will of the Force. The idea that the Order could have gone against the will of the Force is literally unthinkable.
Even though the fact is that the Force did allow and enable the Sith to have their revenge.
"Well, hello there..Could i talk to you for one minute?.."
"Fuck, it's Obi Wan Heidegger... Let's get out of here.."
Anakin: those are just a bunch of random words to me
Good grief , Obi Wan monologue .
A very late fourth be with you to you all
i believe this video is honoring the revenge of the fifth
I love how the lightsabers are humming in the background the whole time
Star wars with lawyers
I would love to see Anakin listen to Obi-Wan’s argument and point out that the Jedi have willingly let slavery and crime persist on planets outside the core worlds, deeming it as outside their responsibility. By doing this they have committed greater evil through apathy and inaction, and by commuting the necessary evil of killing the younglings he wiped the slate clean for his new Empire, in which he can bring peace, freedom and security without some stuck-up order doing nothing with a useless Senate, ruling over the Galaxy as a god.
Then of course, Obi-Wan can claim that Anakin is power-hungry, in which they will begin another part of the debate that if the morals of the leader matter if the end result is pure, the ends justify the means, if he can even garuntee that the peace he describes will happen and if eliminating the Jedi over fixing it from within is truly worth it, etc.
And when they meet in Episode 4 and Anakin plan is taking effect, Anakin can say: “Now *I* have the moral high ground.”
Obi wan could also bring up that extralegal killing (a crime) and slavery have historically been core pillars of Sith society. Unless of course, Anakin is secretly a progressive redpilled Sith reformist.
To end that slavery would not only directly kill at least hundreds and probably millions of sentient beings, but the resulting destabilization of power structures would kill even more. Unless Jedi insight is enough to tell if those scales balance, which evidence is it is not, then from both a deontological and utilitarian perspective we cannot a priori conclude that Jedi inaction on these points is evil. On the other hand we see no evidence of non-violent and/or gradualist approaches to stamping out slavery and oppression outside of Republic-held worlds, either. Now we must consider whether a lack of action in the face of uncertain outcomes can truly be considered 'evil'. There is always a possibility no matter what one does that some other action will produce a greater good, particularly since Jedi cannot see the future with enough clarity to conclude otherwise. Therefore so long as they are acting according to their stated axioms in some manner, we cannot call their failure to act in some other manner evil. On the other hand, Jedi do not always pursue those axioms and indeed often seem to hold more to accumulated ritual and dogma ("no attachments"), particularly as regarding preservation of the Republic. No real effort to consider Separatist complaints is undertaken by them, nor do they consider acting as arbiters rather than Republic soldiers (at least in Lucas canon). Is this acting according to their axioms? Certainly they are helping some, though at the expense of others, but that is true of almost anything. Rather is their GOAL to help others and serve the will of the force, or is their goal preservation of the power structure into which they fit? At the least they do not KNOW the will of the force at this point in time due to the Dark Side 'clouding' things. And while perhaps their acts are contemplated as for the greater good, we certainly don't SEE any contemplation of alternatives. Contrariwise the Dark Side concealing the will of the Force can be seen as evil in as much as it makes Jedi more likely to behave in a manner contrary to said will, but that assumes that will is itself good.
...and I think that's enough for now.
The First Galactic Empire ended slavery except for Droids.
It's like that one X-Men scene where Xavier tried to dissuade Magneto from killing the human fleet that fires on them with "They're just following orders!"
Goddamn it, Xavier. What possibly worse words could you have uttered in front of that particular man.
For someone so smart he really does hold the idiot ball often when you think about it.
Magneto says as much. Arendt's Banality of evil.
I genuinely loved this video and was the highlight of my whole day. Please pat yourself on the back for this one.
2:44 A cursory glance at the Sith Code reveals an immense love of freedom, of emotion and of personal excellence. If, nonetheless, Sith hold on to the view that "the strong shall destroy the weak" It's because, just like the Jedi, they are corrupt. But like the Jedi, they deserve a chance at redemption.
2:59 Sith philosophy pursues strength as means to whatever one desires (in Anakin's case, to bring peace, freedom, justice and security to his new empire). Domination as an end in of itself is the trapping of a lazy Sith.
The claim that the Sith are "immeasurably worse" then becomes unfounded.
There is one major problem with that argument. It overlooks the malevolent and inherently corruptive nature of the dark side of the force. If they were just a religious order that followed the Sith Code then that would be problematic but redeemable. However, they are dark side users which can be likened to addictive drug abuse in terms of effects. They eventually trade their health and sanity for overwhelming power and use that power for purely selfish reasons per their code which demands domination over the weak. All Sith fall down this path over time as an inevitable consequence of where they draw their power from.
Unlike the Sith, the Jedi's use of the force is neither addictive nor corruptive and their code demands that it be used in service of the will of the force which is in fact the collective consciousness of the sentient population of the galaxy which is almost always selfless in nature as it's an individual acting for the greater good. Not all of them follow this ideal perfectly but those that strive to do so are willingly making the choice to rise to their calling throughout their lives rather than being forced into it simply by virtue of using the Force.
Taking both of these things into account. I still think it's reasonable to call the Sith immeasurably worse. They are a blight on the galaxy wherever they appear. The Jedi are by no means perfect but at least they can improve whereas the Sith will always be at odds with the will of the force by their very nature.
@@kylepessell1350i raise you that the prophecy of the chosen one was to “bring balance to the force”. Balance is not the annihilation or domination of any one aspect, be that light or dark. Balance means that each ‘side’ share equal footing. At the time of the prequels, the Jedi (as a rough supermajority of exclusively light side users) number in the hundreds or thousands and are backed by governmental and political forces, and have been so for many hundreds of years (idk the dates regarding the older lore). Additionally, the Jedi at any one point have hundreds of children in training to grow the order and replace operational losses. The sith, by contrast, as the dominant party of dark side users by power concentration, number in the single digits, counting force-using agents and non-force using major players among the sith and violating the rule of two (Ventress, Grievous, etc). Several hundred backed by the galactic government vs a handful of exiles is not ‘balance’ between the light and dark sides of the force. Ergo, the Force itself wanted and willed the era of the Jedi to end, or the sith to get buffed to even the playing field.
@@LocalDiscordCatgirl The idea of balance in the force being between light and dark is a common misconception. The 'Dark Side' of the Force isn't actually a natural part of the Force at all but rather a corruption of it which did not originally exist. Use of the Dark Side wounds and weakens the Force even in small quantities, like a virus infecting a greater organism. If there was equal amounts of virus to healthy cells, the organism would certainly not survive. The point of bringing balance to the Force was not to 'buff' the Dark Side but rather eliminating it to bring the Force back to how it used to be before that corruption existed. The Force has never had a Yin-Yang dichotomy with the Dark Side despite what the Sith would have you believe.
@@kylepessell1350 sounds like Jedi propaganda to me.
@@LocalDiscordCatgirl That is the common presumption of all those sad Sith who are addicted to Dark Side narcotics. Very few of them have a clear idea of the true nature of what they are committing to until it's far too late for them to back out. Respect to Vader/Anakin for being the rare exception to that rule even if they died in the process.
Man starwars episode III directors cut is weired
OH GOD THE PUNCHLINE WAS SO WORTH IT I CAN'T I CAN'TTTTTT
Obi Wan is a man of many words and so nothing hurts him worst than the three simple words of "you're an nerd"
Interesting. Sounds like Obi-Wan is dealing in a lot of absolutes with his (tenuous) argumentation, and as he's said previously, only the Sith deal in absolutes, which therefore casts Obi-Wan as the true Sith in this scenario, and Anakin as the true Jedi in this scenario, which, then, means that if Obi-Wan's argument doesn't hold up, who's evil is a bit of a toss-up, and if Obi-Wan's argument does hold up, Anakin has the moral high ground.
Frankly, this single line is the most damning thing a Jedi has ever said.
The domino effect for what leads to the dark side, how stringent they are about who can be a jedi in the first place, their policies for emotional expression. All this stuff is dealing in pretty harsh absolutes
@@aprinnyonbreak1290Looks like they damn their opposition for their own failings. Seems familiar.
There is one thing to consider, though, and while this doesn't justify the destruction of the Jedi, it does point that this is more of a gray vs very-dark-gray matter rather than a black and white one. First off, while the Sith do use the Dark Side to cause untold amounts of destruction they do not have a monopoly on it, and others such as the Nightsisters utilize it in more constructive ways. Therefore the Force's will to destroy the Dark Side would harm more than just those who wish to abuse their powers for personal gain.
Furthermore, the Jedi code effectively harms their own members' mental health, by forcing them to reject emotion entirely and simply meditate their feelings away rather than actually addressing the root causes of those feelings, resulting in a very emotionally unhealthy state. I might like to add that this philosophy of emotional suppression parallels many exploitative religious cults, in fact the suppression of emotion is one of the primary defining factors of such cults. Combine that with their extensive focused education and training from a very young age which could be considered brainwashing, and I believe it is very accurate to say that the Jedi order could be classified as a _dangerous_ cult despite the amount of good they do for the galaxy, due to their effects on their own members. As such, while the Jedi do a lot of good, it is safe to say that they shouldn't be the ones doing it and that a new Force order with far less unhealthy practices should be formed to replace them. Again, though, this doesn't justify the immediate destruction of the Jedi, just a gradual replacement.
There is no evidence that the Force wants to destroy its own Dark Side, only the assertion by the Jedi as an article of faith, confirming the Jedi's intolerance of plurality in order to maintain their monopoly on the Force.
Now we know how Anakin got into thesis writing, it'd be nice to see a remaster of this meme.
I know the dialogue is memed but Anakin wasn't saying that the Sith are any better. He pointed out how the anti-evil group is also pretty messed up.
Even before TCW lore, this was true.
"We could also assume the Will of The Force is evil" - Obi Wan played KotOR 2 confirmed
Big "I would simply debate the Nazis" vibes
I case of debating the Nazis keeping a weapon already in one's hand is a wise think to do
@@PobortzaPl Nice fearmongering you got going there.
Just don't go calling anyone who disagrees with you a Nazi, because then we're going to have a problem...
Vaush cameo
Rolling up to the Reichstag in 1936: "Bro your hair is literally brown. Pipe down."
Has anyone tried? The Nazis argued a lot about why they were right and what they did was necessary to save the world from evil. One argument against them was that they are unsophisticated, which is an ad-hominem. Another was that they didn't have the means to do more than kill the occasional unioniser, that they were harmless because they were too ambitious, and easily bought. But history has proven that one disastrously wrong.
Basically the arguments against Nazism that I see today are 1) they killed a lot of people, and 2) they lost the war. Accompanied by assertions that "not everything the Nazis did was bad." (Which I don't agree with BTW.) There isn't a lot of substance to that.
Nowadays the Nazis are arguing that at least they are looking out for their own people when nobody else does.
It seems nobody is bothering to engage the Nazis in debate because their assumptions are so obviously wrong. So obvious that the question "what is wrong with being racist" leaves the left speechless, which the Nazis score as a moral victory for themselves. From that, it almost makes sense that genocide is a form of self-defence.
Back in the 1930s the leftists have complained about Nazis killing them, which the Nazis turned around as "everyone is always against us, they won't even let us speak." (It is odd to see violence painted as a free speech issue, but painting themselves as the victims of a conspiracy against them is a favoured tactic of theirs which seems to work for them.)
Maybe debating the Nazis would work? Has anyone seriously tried? There is the argument that engaging with them would legitimise their position, but as they see themselves as victims of a conspiracy, not debating them lends credence to there being a conspiracy.
Although maybe it is pointless.
0:10
... Jedi kidnapping kids to mindbreak them and force them to forgo all desire/love/connection to maintain their control of the galaxy over the republic be like:
They don’t they don’t kidnap kids stop spouting misinformation
@@aidenknightofaskr3705
The Jedi do not kidnap kids.
You will go home and rethink your life.
If Obi-Wan moonlighted as a politician
Dude, you were a jerk to him the whole time, and Yoda is also a jerk too, at least Palatine let Anakin get his words out
As someone who loves star wars and studying ethical theory this video sEnt mE
This was very clever and very enjoyable to watch!
So this is where Anakin got his obsession with dichotomy?
i love you so much obi-wan. you fuckin nerd