This episode's flashbacks are super important to understanding Angel as a continuous character instead of 3 disparate ones (Liam/Angelus/Angel). Note what Darla says in the end: "Your victory over him took but moments...But his defeat of you will last lifetimes.” Now consider Angel's treatment of Drusilla and Buffy when he was evil; he did not simply kill them and attain momentary victory, rather, he inflicted lasting psychological damage. This episode is about the power parents hold over their children, even long after they're gone. Angel realized that power as a vampire and sought to wield it over others. Presumably in an attempt to get back at his father, whose defeat of him truly has lasted lifetimes.
If you really notice, Angel never really interacted with a lot of the other characters on Buffy for a long time🙁 On Angel, Doyle gets Angel going on being more Interactive with other people and Cordelia is the one that imposes her personality onto Angel, then comes Wesley and other characters were going to see in the future. That's really the reason why we see more of Angel's dork side here than on Buffy the Vampire Slayer
@@paulgunderson4721 that was kind of the whole point of Angel's character on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. He was cool, mysterious, maybe a little dangerous in the eyes of a young 16 year old girl🤨 In reality, Angel was a loner just trying to help out Buffy, the woman he would eventually fall in love with but he was never really a fighter. Season 3 episode 10 "Amends" of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" shows us how Angel feels about himself. Which is something he's going to be dealing with on his own show(Angel) for 5 seasons, where he's trying to be a fighter, a champion for good, not just for Buffy
I think you're looking at Liam's behavior and his father's response backwards. Liam (Angel) wanted his father's attention and approval, but could never get it _except_ when he was acting out. If the only time his father paid him any attention was when he was yelling at him for being such a disappointment, then by God, he would be the best disappointment ever; thus living up to his father's low expectations of him. But like Darla said later, he wanted his father's approval; and on some level he always expected to find it somehow. Becoming a vampire however would be the step too far in that rebellion, the step he could never take back. And I think that broke him emotionally and psychologically. That's why Angelus is the outlier to other vampires; even without a soul he hates what he is so much that he lashes out at anything that reminds him of the humanity he lost and wants others to feel that loss too. His victims seen in Amends are a testament to that. The way he went after Dru and later Buffy speak to that as well. When he was possessed by the spirit of the teacher in "I Only Have Eyes for You," he's repulsed by the residual feeling of humanity (meanwhile other vampires had enough humanity for the Judge to burn). In "Becoming" he talks longingly about "it all being over" when he awakens Acathla. But the thing that gets me every damn time with this episode, the absolute tragedy of these flashbacks is that Angel has no idea what he meant to his father; or that he stayed beside his grave long after everyone else left. His dad didn't want to leave him.
I really felt Angel's father's anguish when he says, "I was never in your way, boy." Overly authoritarian and not world's best dad as he was, you could see in that moment, he loved his son.
I absolutely saw Angelus as loathing of anything that reminded him/ made him human, but it never occurred to me that might come from self loathing from being a vampire
@@ItsMeBarnaby "Disappointment? A more dutiful son you couldn’t have asked for. My whole life you’ve told me in word, in glance, what it is you required of me, and I’ve lived down to your every expectation, now haven’t I?" "That’s madness!" "No, the madness is that I couldn’t fail enough for you. But we’ll fix that now, won’t we?" This exchange describes a very common pattern found in abusers. Find an excuse, any excuse, anything that can be perceived as misbehavior, no matter how small, and use it to judge and punish. If they try to do something right and get one minor thing wrong, pick out the wrong thing and judge and punish, don't even acknowledge what they were trying to do. Angel describes his takeaway from that pattern being that if his dad's gonna find fault no matter what he does, he might as well just give up on trying to do anything right (which he presumably did years before). This is also not an uncommon outcome, although obviously becoming a vampire isn't usually where it goes, per se. It's not head canon so much as reading between the lines and recognizing the subtext from real life examples of these types of relationships. It's very common. In abusive parents and abusive partners alike.
Both Angel and Kate didn't have their dad's approval and love. Kate did everything she could to get it and Angel didn't. Neither strategy worked. The relationships were effed no matter what the kids did.
From what I understand, Liam basically gave up on seeking his father's approval because nothing he did was good enough. That's why he succumbed to drinking and womanizing.
Angel flashback episode where we get to see Angel's human life, Angel's real name reveal, Darla, the origin of Angelus. And something that I find partially interesting about this one is we see that much like Spike Angelus retains a lot of human aspects this is not unique to just Spike. A lot of Angelus' ruthless nature come from his human life wanting to prove himself to his father even in death. Angelus wants to be the most evil vampire the world has seen. The connection is that neither Angel nor Kate can gain approval from their fathers especially now.
this. also, the backstory in the flashback helps to educate viewers of Angel who didn't watch BTVS. I was one of those viewers. I caught Angel on TNT back when they would air like 4 eps each weekday before Charmed. I made it pretty deep into the 1st season before I found out that it was a spin-off of BTVS, lol.
@@mparantha just what I was going to say. Yes btvs viewers had this info, but Angel has to stand on its own, even without Buffy. Which is why it's necessary that the viewers get this kind of background and history on his own show, only with more focus on it, than BTVS was able to give that same information.
It's not just that, he's a damn hedonist. Whatever emotion he's feeling or experience he's engaging in, Liam, Angelus and Angel all throw themselves fully into it. It's why Angelus is so obsessive, Angel is such a drama queen and why his youthful rebellion continued to spiral.
I feel like this episode could be summed up by Xander: "You're having father issues, you're having father issues... 🕺🕺Freud would have said the exact same thing. Except he might not have done that little dance."
The dynamic between Liam (Angel) and his dad was that all his father did was put him down. So in a way Liam was living up to his Father's expectations. If his father was kind Liam might have been an upstanding young man just Angel is with a soul. Liam wasn't really a bad person. He was just behaving the way his father expected him too. In a way Kate is too. She's trying to be what she thinks her father wants her to be. They were both trying to please their fathers but doing it wrong.
I've always thought that was also part of the reason why Angelus was so evil, even by vampire standards. As a man, Liam was filled with self loathing and the sense that he was wicked, so that's what the demon picked up on to use as the template for his vampire personality. It also goes a long way toward explaining why Angel has the level of guilt he does despite not truly being culpable for the things he did without a soul. He's most ashamed that it was his actions as a man that led to that.
@@Tim85-y2q I agree. It's like when Willow met her Vampire doppelganger, she was put off by vamp Willow's style, personality and "kinda gay". Buffy tried to say that it's the demon and a vampire's personality has nothing to do with the person they were but Angel almost was about say different.
For Angel & Kate, they are both disappointments because they are not the sons the fathers really wanted. Liam couldn't live up to the expectations, rebelled, and after becoming Angelus did everything to spite his human life. Kate does everything for her dad's approval and even when she doesn't get it her love for him kept her trying.
Yeah, I think the parallel with the dads is mostly just about having a parent you have a strained or fraught relationship with, which you can then never resolve because they die before you ever get a chance to. Which...maybe that was never going to be possible, but now you'll never know, will you? You'll never know if you or they or both of you ever would have grown into people who could understand each other better. And you just have to live with that. Kate and Angel's circumstances are incredibly different, but in that respect they're both always going to have that cloud of unresolved uncertainty hanging over them.
I just realized, it's kind of cool that the last episode was all about relationships between fathers and their children. And so is this one. It's almost like a recurring theme.
One interesting detail from this episode is that Angel's very name is a reminder of what he did to his sister and family so he is never without the memory of his crimes. Talk about dramatic.
I've been rewatching in pace with your uploads (more or less) and while I was watching this one I knew you were gonna be excited for it, with the flashbacks and having Kate in it. I think the flashbacks show Angel and Kate sort of inversely mirroring each other, but also both ultimately wanting their fathers to think they've amounted to something and both losing the chance to feel that approval. They behave differently, Angel rebelling against his father and Kate working so hard to please her father, but they're both very motivated by that relationship. Mr. Lockley's involvement was that he was paid to help some shady guys move some auto parts, so he could set aside some extra money for Kate, but the dudes (demons) who were moving the "sketchy auto parts" (demon drugs) ended up asking for extra favors. He didn't know about the drugs or the demons when he agreed to help them.
Kate and her dad are the opposite of Angel and his dad but with the same outcome. Kate is the dutiful one and her dad is the corrupted one killed by a vampire.
8:36 "Really?! You're going to bring Kate back for an episode then kill her f**king dad?! I hate this show." Oh, you haven't begun to hate this show. ........wait. what am I trying to accomplish here?
I was looking forward to seeing you react to the moment we learn that Angel's name "Angel" or "Angelus" comes from his sister Kathy thinking he was an angel who came back to her, or talk about it afterward, but you didn't mention it. You did notice it, right? .
18:15 Oh yeah, it's a big Angel episode. It informs so much of what Angelus is. And why Angel was in such deep despair when he got his soul back. While Angelus was obsessed with his father, I think Angel regretted the killing of his sister more.
funfact you notice that angel said his sister called him an angel before inviting him in this is when he took the name angelus, before that his name was liam or william.....
Angel standing in the doorway waiting for Kate to notice him. I do the same thing because, I don't want to bother people. Yeah, I should learn how to start conversations. 😳😁
Really strong episode and a good lead in to the end of the season. As Passion of the Nerd points out in his episode guides, flashback episodes in BTVS and AtS tend to be superior in quality. Ooh, Ally is an Angel/Kate shipper...don't open any packages without having them scanned first. Alley: "I hate this show." Luke: "I'm not afraid." Yoda: You WILL be...."
So many comment that Angle/Liam was seeking the approval of his father and failing, but the failing seems deliberate, Liam's failures hurt his father, caused him pain and anguish. My thesis is that Angel is a Sadist. An emotional sadist. Which explains all his actions from his carousing, fighting and seducing the servants, all designed to cause his father pain. Then as Angel/Angelus, he strung out his pleasure with Dru, and intended the same with Buffy. Even when he had his soul, we see his sadism with how he speaks to Spike telling him how only Angel can pleasure Drusilla, not Spike. If you look, every time Angle taunt's (or really torments) someone, he derives pleasure from it, just that with his soul, he carefully controls whom he unleashes his sadism on to only people he intensely dislikes, and usually whom he views as evil already.
It seems that this episode was all about parental approval. Angel gave up trying early on since there was nothing he could have done to earn the approval so he went in the other direction. Kate was looking for the same approval but it was too late and neither will ever get what they needed, their approval.
With regards to Darla's final speech, it helps to understand that Angel's key personality trait both with and without a soul is extreme obsessiveness and controlling behaviours towards anyone he loves. As Angelus this results in his destruction of his own family, then of Drusilla's , and finally his targetting of Buffy's friends in season 2. As Angel you can see it in his schoolboy like attitude towards his love of Buffy and his constant attempts to protect her even when she doesn't need it. Both personalities lead to the same result: Angel/Angelus destroys the people he loves. Compare Angelus watching Buffy sleep in season 2 to Angel watching over Buffy in the Thanksgiving episode. Angel's motivations differ, but the result of both is Buffy being off her game and at greater risk. This is what Darla is foreshadowing, that Angel's desire for acceptance from those he loves is what makes him a monster.
If it helps, remember Buffy season one. Mostly monster of the week until plot suddenly appears out of nowhere? The thinly linked flashbacks are your indication that now the plot is starting.
Alley 2 episodes ago when Angel and Wesley were dancing - “I love this show!” Alley this episode after seeing Kate’s dad murdered - “ I hate this show!” Me - “Does she love it or hate it? I’m so damn confused….lol”
This is the episode where Liam/Angel's tombstone tells the fanbase how old Angel looked after he was turned thus expanding upon the issue the fanbase and characters already knew concerning Bangel: he was older than high school age. Now it also shows that while he was with Buffy as a minor of fifteen (Buffy's age when Angel first saw her), sixteen (Buffy's age when they first met and dated), and seventeen (Buffy's age when they slept together), the characters who didn't know Angel was a vampire were seeing a twenty-six-year-old with a minor. Darla is very perceptive for a soulless creature who probably shouldn't or doesn't care about the relationship between Angelus and his recently dead family -- particularly his father. The fact that Angelus will never able to triumph over him and, as Darla says, "nor can he ever approve of you in this world or any other" because ""his defeat of you will last lifetimes." Angelus is an evil maniacal, badass villain because he has father issue he can never resolve. For a creature who shows less soul than even most soulless creatures, the reason behind his villainy is all about emotion. The parallels between Kate and Angel's relationships with their fathers are wonderfully written and acted. Kate's dad may not be physically abusive like Angel's father was, but Kate and her father did not have the strong bond she was looking for from him, exactly as paralleled with Angel and his father. Kate's dad assumed he was helping transport auto parts (illegally imported to avoid import duties) for money. He doesn't know the "car parts" are actually drugs. He resents being asked to remove crime scene evidence and pump his daughter for information as it wasn't the initial agreement. That took me a couple watches to get also. Angel's dad saying "I was never in your way, boy" is the only time he has a true emotion if front of him and discusses things they probably should have talked about. Too bad he abused Angel instead of having those talks. This is one of my favorite Angel flashback episodes. Its always heartbreaking to hear how Liam received the name Angel.
I LOVE IT and don't think it's heartbreaking, remember Angel with a soul chooses to keep the name Angel that he took from his sister thinking he came back as an angel only to kill her instead, it really speaks to Angel the person WITH a soul's character, the way he broods and tortures himself. I think it's bad ass and romantic and tragic, like a remembrance to his sister that he killed.
@@w33d533d Where as everything you said is why I think the tragic-ness of choosing to live with that guilt is heartbreaking. And that is why I love it.
You said we already know about Angel and his family but that is only true if the viewer watched Buffy. I can see why they would want to show his story in Angel for people who don't watch both. Don't get me wrong, I think everyone should watch Buffy 1-3 first but I can see some people not doing so; especially at the time of first airing.
The parallel between Angel and Kate (at least as I read it) is that they were both disappointments to their fathers and now will never get a chance to reconcile with them.
I really appreciate the parallels drawn between Kathy and Kate in 'The Prodigal'... They share a name, of course, but there is an extra level to it; Angel killed Kathy in the past (and you can see the moment in that flashback when he realizes what he did to the only person who loved him unconditionally) which absolutely informs his desire to protect (in the sense of not wanting to be as directly responsible for hurting her, hence his desperate attempt to save Trevor) Kate in the present 🖤
I think this episode lost you a bit when Kate told Angel "I'm not your girlfriend" Also you are about to hit a run of banger episodes of the Buffyverse
I think the episodes they were talking about where the title might spoil you were Buffy 4*19 and Angel 1*18 ("New Moon Rising" and "Five by Five", which you've seen by now, so it should be safe to look at the episode title before watching from now on (the Slayalive guide has even been updated to reflect that). I really miss watching you try to guess what the title means at the beginning of the video. And we all knew what the titles were before watching the episodes the first time they aired. .
I see Liam came from the posh end of Galway. In that period therefore a Protestant, so he's Scotch-Irish, not Irish Irish. Unlike Doyle, who screamed Irish Catholic. Maybe this was one of those "at Angel we do gritty realism" episodes, re-enforcing the fact that when the fantasy world and the real world connect, in this case the LAPD in the form of Kate and her dad, people in the real world die.
I started watching this for the first time the same time you did and I felt the exact same way you seem to do in this review. I liked the flashbacks and Kate and stuff in it but to me the whole episode is just very messy! Its ok to not like the episodes and I like it when your honest about that. You can always reflect on it later but I always think you have interesting reasonings for your thoughts so don't feel scared of sharing them! :) I think episode 16 was much better and well paced! Excited to see your reaction to it!
According to Buffy The Vampire Slayer The Watcher's Guide book, Angel's real name before he turned into legendary most brutality sadistic vampire Angelus was Liam O'Malley. Liam O'Malley/Angel/Angelus is prodigal son. He have daddy issues. He's rich playboy with hidden heart of gold. He love his little sister Kathy O'Malley unconditional love. He's good cool big brother to Kathy as he's looking after her and protect her. Kathy is his humanity and anchor.
Just one question about this episode because it wasn't mentioned in the review. Does anyone know exactly this is called The Prodigal? The only thing that comes to mind is the parable of The Prodigal Son (which doesn't really tell me what the word even means.) While that was about parental conflict, I don't see much of a connection aside from that.
Prodigal means extravagant. The younger son demanded his inheritance from his father early then frittered it all away in debauchery. But in the end he comes home asking forgiveness and is reconciled with his father. Liam is a womanising layabout frittering his money away on drink, who will never get the chance to reconcile with his dad because Darla made him a vampire, and he murdered him.
I think the only connection with the flashbacks was both children wanting desperately to impress and make their dads proud. That’s about it. Everything else is different.
oooh... Editor Alley finished season 1? cant wait for Reaction Alley to catch up with the best 2 part story in season 1. its weird you had so much trouble seeing the parallel they were trying to draw. i think its theyre both unapproachable father figures that want the best for their kids but because they are so distant their kids are unaware of it and it ends up destroying them. maybe you were putting more onto it than was needed?
2 words: "Daddy issues" Buffy, Angel, Kate, anyone on this show has a bad relationship with their father. But if you wonder, Kate didn't have a good relationship with her dad. Angel felt like he knows how that feels, and that her relationship is still better than his was with his dad. Side note, to let the audience know he has a thing for blonds. Specifically the ones who have a determined mind. Just conjectures after this point. This also ties into... how Angel feels attracted to someone who sees him as less and wans to prove them wrong. Darla never saw Angel as her superior, Buffy never did, and Kate doesn't either. While most girls think he is more than meets the eye. He doesn't trust people who think he is superior.
I don’t think she’ll see this, so could someone on her Patreon suggest that if she stops loading up the show with the expectation that it’s Buffy V2 and start looking at it as a character study of redemption and fighting no matter what the odds she might enjoy it more and stop missing everything?
After all, anyone who saves the universe from eternal bloodshed, horror and misery deserves to get what they've always wanted. Deserves to become a real boy.
I'm kinda scared you're going to stop watching Angel cause the first season is ROUGH but please, hang in there (little kitten), it gets better I swear.
Well I don't know if you should. For me personally the show never did it. I have watched it 3 times now (first when it aired in german TV, second when a friend lend me the DVDs to watch it in english, third last month because I want to follow some reactors through it and could not remember much) and I like some episodes and some characters, but overall it just does not get me hooked. Buffy is my favourite TV show ever. Angel is okay.
@@David-ve5iq I honestly don’t see that at all. Kate isn’t someone who is eager to surround herself with friends. She doesn’t really radiate warmth or love. She’s not an open or enthusiastic person. She’s not much of a leader or problem solver. The only qualities I see her share with Buffy is a feeling of responsibility to protect others and being blonde.
@@ItsMeBarnaby I guess there's a part of her character that is kind of a stock cop character. That she sees everything in black and white, so the moment she learns Angel was a mass murderer she is hostile toward him. Yes cliche. But it's often true. Although, I suspect it's more life imitating art than the other way around. A lot of people who become police have a notion of what police are based on art, television and radio--ever since _Dick Tracy_ and _The Untouchables._ As for Kate's character? She suffered from there being a change in the main cast. There was a lot of material to her character. On the one hand, she's a hard nosed detective. But on the other hand, she's naive about the supernatural, she's trusting about Angel, and she's got all these social insecurities--public speaking, her family troubles, etc. But because they had to reestablish the main cast, while sticking to the Case-of-the-Week format, they had no time for the character. Honestly, be thankful that they took this direction with her character instead of turning her into a boring tsundere girlfriend for Angel. Her type of character more often than not becomes a sexist trope in any TV show, and they usually have to be written off because they become bland. Having her neg Angel constantly is unpleasant and annoying, but it's at least better storytelling than it could have been. (No discussing any character arc for the character beyond season 1.)
My problem is I never cared much for the moping lead character of this show. I was never into Buffy either but Sarah Michelle is a very good actress and her character has layers, but I was more interested in Willow, Xander and Giles. Buffy was the hero, I expected her to be heroic, have angsty moments, fire off the one-liners. Angel doesn't talk much, I need dialogue, he mopes and broods. So "Buffy" will always trump the "Angel" show for me. It has its moments though.
This episode soured me on Angel for quite a while. I like the Kate character - and the writers wasted her. The flashbacks, while interesting in themselves, didn't really serve the story. The Big Bad falls like a house of twigs. The whole thing felt slapdash.
You’re not missing anything, the flashbacks don’t quite relate to what’s going on. It reminds me of this quote from Rick and Morty: Jerry - Sounds like our stories were connected by a theme. Rick - Not really, Jerry. Probably a cosmetic connection your mind mistakes for thematic.
This episode's flashbacks are super important to understanding Angel as a continuous character instead of 3 disparate ones (Liam/Angelus/Angel). Note what Darla says in the end: "Your victory over him took but moments...But his defeat of you will last lifetimes.” Now consider Angel's treatment of Drusilla and Buffy when he was evil; he did not simply kill them and attain momentary victory, rather, he inflicted lasting psychological damage. This episode is about the power parents hold over their children, even long after they're gone. Angel realized that power as a vampire and sought to wield it over others. Presumably in an attempt to get back at his father, whose defeat of him truly has lasted lifetimes.
Angel on Buffy: He's so strong and mysterious
Angel on Angel: Holy shit he's an awkward dork.
To be fair, his dorky side came out more the longer he was on Buffy.
.
Yeah, a lot of my favourite moments of his on Buffy were him tripping over or being awkward
If you really notice, Angel never really interacted with a lot of the other characters on Buffy for a long time🙁
On Angel, Doyle gets Angel going on being more Interactive with other people and Cordelia is the one that imposes her personality onto Angel, then comes Wesley and other characters were going to see in the future. That's really the reason why we see more of Angel's dork side here than on Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Angel on Buffy was usually kinda weak sauce.
Angel on Angel suddenly kicks major ass.
@@paulgunderson4721 that was kind of the whole point of Angel's character on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. He was cool, mysterious, maybe a little dangerous in the eyes of a young 16 year old girl🤨
In reality, Angel was a loner just trying to help out Buffy, the woman he would eventually fall in love with but he was never really a fighter. Season 3 episode 10 "Amends" of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" shows us how Angel feels about himself. Which is something he's going to be dealing with on his own show(Angel) for 5 seasons, where he's trying to be a fighter, a champion for good, not just for Buffy
I think you're looking at Liam's behavior and his father's response backwards. Liam (Angel) wanted his father's attention and approval, but could never get it _except_ when he was acting out. If the only time his father paid him any attention was when he was yelling at him for being such a disappointment, then by God, he would be the best disappointment ever; thus living up to his father's low expectations of him.
But like Darla said later, he wanted his father's approval; and on some level he always expected to find it somehow. Becoming a vampire however would be the step too far in that rebellion, the step he could never take back. And I think that broke him emotionally and psychologically. That's why Angelus is the outlier to other vampires; even without a soul he hates what he is so much that he lashes out at anything that reminds him of the humanity he lost and wants others to feel that loss too. His victims seen in Amends are a testament to that. The way he went after Dru and later Buffy speak to that as well. When he was possessed by the spirit of the teacher in "I Only Have Eyes for You," he's repulsed by the residual feeling of humanity (meanwhile other vampires had enough humanity for the Judge to burn). In "Becoming" he talks longingly about "it all being over" when he awakens Acathla.
But the thing that gets me every damn time with this episode, the absolute tragedy of these flashbacks is that Angel has no idea what he meant to his father; or that he stayed beside his grave long after everyone else left. His dad didn't want to leave him.
Oh, I love this
I really felt Angel's father's anguish when he says, "I was never in your way, boy." Overly authoritarian and not world's best dad as he was, you could see in that moment, he loved his son.
I absolutely saw Angelus as loathing of anything that reminded him/ made him human, but it never occurred to me that might come from self loathing from being a vampire
Excellent analysis.
@@ItsMeBarnaby "Disappointment? A more dutiful son you couldn’t have asked for. My whole life you’ve told me in word, in glance, what it is you required of me, and I’ve lived down to your every expectation, now haven’t I?" "That’s madness!" "No, the madness is that I couldn’t fail enough for you. But we’ll fix that now, won’t we?"
This exchange describes a very common pattern found in abusers. Find an excuse, any excuse, anything that can be perceived as misbehavior, no matter how small, and use it to judge and punish. If they try to do something right and get one minor thing wrong, pick out the wrong thing and judge and punish, don't even acknowledge what they were trying to do. Angel describes his takeaway from that pattern being that if his dad's gonna find fault no matter what he does, he might as well just give up on trying to do anything right (which he presumably did years before). This is also not an uncommon outcome, although obviously becoming a vampire isn't usually where it goes, per se.
It's not head canon so much as reading between the lines and recognizing the subtext from real life examples of these types of relationships. It's very common. In abusive parents and abusive partners alike.
Both Angel and Kate didn't have their dad's approval and love. Kate did everything she could to get it and Angel didn't. Neither strategy worked. The relationships were effed no matter what the kids did.
The dads were the problem.
Parents are supposed to give unconditional love.
From what I understand, Liam basically gave up on seeking his father's approval because nothing he did was good enough. That's why he succumbed to drinking and womanizing.
Angel flashback episode where we get to see Angel's human life, Angel's real name reveal, Darla, the origin of Angelus. And something that I find partially interesting about this one is we see that much like Spike Angelus retains a lot of human aspects this is not unique to just Spike. A lot of Angelus' ruthless nature come from his human life wanting to prove himself to his father even in death. Angelus wants to be the most evil vampire the world has seen.
The connection is that neither Angel nor Kate can gain approval from their fathers especially now.
this. also, the backstory in the flashback helps to educate viewers of Angel who didn't watch BTVS. I was one of those viewers. I caught Angel on TNT back when they would air like 4 eps each weekday before Charmed. I made it pretty deep into the 1st season before I found out that it was a spin-off of BTVS, lol.
@@mparantha Holy shit same that's how I discovered the show.
@@mparantha just what I was going to say. Yes btvs viewers had this info, but Angel has to stand on its own, even without Buffy. Which is why it's necessary that the viewers get this kind of background and history on his own show, only with more focus on it, than BTVS was able to give that same information.
It's not just that, he's a damn hedonist. Whatever emotion he's feeling or experience he's engaging in, Liam, Angelus and Angel all throw themselves fully into it. It's why Angelus is so obsessive, Angel is such a drama queen and why his youthful rebellion continued to spiral.
The Buffyverse is basically one bitch slap after another of, "be careful what you wish for" 😬
Ikr 🤣
I think they were also establishing darla for people that hadn't watched buffy, so the flashbacks had a purpose beyond this episode
Wasn't she in a flashback a few episodes back?
@@DaDunge i'm not sure.
I feel like this episode could be summed up by Xander: "You're having father issues, you're having father issues... 🕺🕺Freud would have said the exact same thing. Except he might not have done that little dance."
The dynamic between Liam (Angel) and his dad was that all his father did was put him down. So in a way Liam was living up to his Father's expectations. If his father was kind Liam might have been an upstanding young man just Angel is with a soul. Liam wasn't really a bad person. He was just behaving the way his father expected him too. In a way Kate is too. She's trying to be what she thinks her father wants her to be. They were both trying to please their fathers but doing it wrong.
I've always thought that was also part of the reason why Angelus was so evil, even by vampire standards. As a man, Liam was filled with self loathing and the sense that he was wicked, so that's what the demon picked up on to use as the template for his vampire personality. It also goes a long way toward explaining why Angel has the level of guilt he does despite not truly being culpable for the things he did without a soul. He's most ashamed that it was his actions as a man that led to that.
@@Tim85-y2q I agree. It's like when Willow met her Vampire doppelganger, she was put off by vamp Willow's style, personality and "kinda gay". Buffy tried to say that it's the demon and a vampire's personality has nothing to do with the person they were but Angel almost was about say different.
The most tragic line in the entire Buffyverse; "I was never in your way boy".
"She kept talking words" - Now that is some great quote of the day :)
Liam/Angel could never live up to his father's expectations and get his approval. Same goes for Kate, so the flashbacks fit perfectly.
For Angel & Kate, they are both disappointments because they are not the sons the fathers really wanted. Liam couldn't live up to the expectations, rebelled, and after becoming Angelus did everything to spite his human life. Kate does everything for her dad's approval and even when she doesn't get it her love for him kept her trying.
Yeah, I think the parallel with the dads is mostly just about having a parent you have a strained or fraught relationship with, which you can then never resolve because they die before you ever get a chance to. Which...maybe that was never going to be possible, but now you'll never know, will you? You'll never know if you or they or both of you ever would have grown into people who could understand each other better. And you just have to live with that. Kate and Angel's circumstances are incredibly different, but in that respect they're both always going to have that cloud of unresolved uncertainty hanging over them.
Angel is the first vampire to be born without vamp face. Every other vampire has been “born” in full vampire mode
I just realized, it's kind of cool that the last episode was all about relationships between fathers and their children. And so is this one. It's almost like a recurring theme.
One interesting detail from this episode is that Angel's very name is a reminder of what he did to his sister and family so he is never without the memory of his crimes. Talk about dramatic.
I'm always very happy to hear from Editing Alley! The ABCU is still going strong!
Kate became just like her father, too much even, that she put up the same walls that he did. They could never see each other and now never will.
I've been rewatching in pace with your uploads (more or less) and while I was watching this one I knew you were gonna be excited for it, with the flashbacks and having Kate in it.
I think the flashbacks show Angel and Kate sort of inversely mirroring each other, but also both ultimately wanting their fathers to think they've amounted to something and both losing the chance to feel that approval. They behave differently, Angel rebelling against his father and Kate working so hard to please her father, but they're both very motivated by that relationship.
Mr. Lockley's involvement was that he was paid to help some shady guys move some auto parts, so he could set aside some extra money for Kate, but the dudes (demons) who were moving the "sketchy auto parts" (demon drugs) ended up asking for extra favors. He didn't know about the drugs or the demons when he agreed to help them.
Kate and her dad are the opposite of Angel and his dad but with the same outcome. Kate is the dutiful one and her dad is the corrupted one killed by a vampire.
the flash backs are gold ! there are more comeing. i do like ur take on this episode
8:36 "Really?! You're going to bring Kate back for an episode then kill her f**king dad?! I hate this show."
Oh, you haven't begun to hate this show.
........wait. what am I trying to accomplish here?
I was looking forward to seeing you react to the moment we learn that Angel's name "Angel" or "Angelus" comes from his sister Kathy thinking he was an angel who came back to her, or talk about it afterward, but you didn't mention it. You did notice it, right?
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This was the best part of the episode.
18:15 Oh yeah, it's a big Angel episode. It informs so much of what Angelus is. And why Angel was in such deep despair when he got his soul back. While Angelus was obsessed with his father, I think Angel regretted the killing of his sister more.
funfact you notice that angel said his sister called him an angel before inviting him in this is when he took the name angelus, before that his name was liam or william.....
I love that Angel and Spike as humans had essentially the same name.
Angel standing in the doorway waiting for Kate to notice him.
I do the same thing because, I don't want to bother people.
Yeah, I should learn how to start conversations. 😳😁
Really strong episode and a good lead in to the end of the season. As Passion of the Nerd points out in his episode guides, flashback episodes in BTVS and AtS tend to be superior in quality.
Ooh, Ally is an Angel/Kate shipper...don't open any packages without having them scanned first.
Alley: "I hate this show."
Luke: "I'm not afraid."
Yoda: You WILL be...."
So many comment that Angle/Liam was seeking the approval of his father and failing, but the failing seems deliberate, Liam's failures hurt his father, caused him pain and anguish. My thesis is that Angel is a Sadist. An emotional sadist. Which explains all his actions from his carousing, fighting and seducing the servants, all designed to cause his father pain. Then as Angel/Angelus, he strung out his pleasure with Dru, and intended the same with Buffy. Even when he had his soul, we see his sadism with how he speaks to Spike telling him how only Angel can pleasure Drusilla, not Spike. If you look, every time Angle taunt's (or really torments) someone, he derives pleasure from it, just that with his soul, he carefully controls whom he unleashes his sadism on to only people he intensely dislikes, and usually whom he views as evil already.
There were a lot of metaphors with father parallels in past and present along with a little bit of Oedipus with Darla, it's subtext
It seems that this episode was all about parental approval. Angel gave up trying early on since there was nothing he could have done to earn the approval so he went in the other direction. Kate was looking for the same approval but it was too late and neither will ever get what they needed, their approval.
With regards to Darla's final speech, it helps to understand that Angel's key personality trait both with and without a soul is extreme obsessiveness and controlling behaviours towards anyone he loves.
As Angelus this results in his destruction of his own family, then of Drusilla's , and finally his targetting of Buffy's friends in season 2. As Angel you can see it in his schoolboy like attitude towards his love of Buffy and his constant attempts to protect her even when she doesn't need it.
Both personalities lead to the same result: Angel/Angelus destroys the people he loves. Compare Angelus watching Buffy sleep in season 2 to Angel watching over Buffy in the Thanksgiving episode. Angel's motivations differ, but the result of both is Buffy being off her game and at greater risk.
This is what Darla is foreshadowing, that Angel's desire for acceptance from those he loves is what makes him a monster.
I always enjoy the flashback episodes.
This one is a flashback episode and a Kate episode, so you definitely got some "stuff" in this one.
It's the parallel of Angel & Kate never going to get the approval they need because the only people that they want it from are dead
This!!
If it helps, remember Buffy season one. Mostly monster of the week until plot suddenly appears out of nowhere? The thinly linked flashbacks are your indication that now the plot is starting.
Alley 2 episodes ago when Angel and Wesley were dancing - “I love this show!”
Alley this episode after seeing Kate’s dad murdered - “ I hate this show!”
Me - “Does she love it or hate it? I’m so damn confused….lol”
Editing Alley is awesome!
Just finished season 1? Tommy Wiseau “Oh hi Darla”
And only 1 episode till my favorite Buffyverse character shows up. Good times, good times
Nobody:
Literally nobody:
Me, in a high pitched voice: yay! A new Alley video! Yay!
This is the episode where Liam/Angel's tombstone tells the fanbase how old Angel looked after he was turned thus expanding upon the issue the fanbase and characters already knew concerning Bangel: he was older than high school age. Now it also shows that while he was with Buffy as a minor of fifteen (Buffy's age when Angel first saw her), sixteen (Buffy's age when they first met and dated), and seventeen (Buffy's age when they slept together), the characters who didn't know Angel was a vampire were seeing a twenty-six-year-old with a minor.
Darla is very perceptive for a soulless creature who probably shouldn't or doesn't care about the relationship between Angelus and his recently dead family -- particularly his father. The fact that Angelus will never able to triumph over him and, as Darla says, "nor can he ever approve of you in this world or any other" because ""his defeat of you will last lifetimes." Angelus is an evil maniacal, badass villain because he has father issue he can never resolve. For a creature who shows less soul than even most soulless creatures, the reason behind his villainy is all about emotion.
The parallels between Kate and Angel's relationships with their fathers are wonderfully written and acted. Kate's dad may not be physically abusive like Angel's father was, but Kate and her father did not have the strong bond she was looking for from him, exactly as paralleled with Angel and his father.
Kate's dad assumed he was helping transport auto parts (illegally imported to avoid import duties) for money. He doesn't know the "car parts" are actually drugs. He resents being asked to remove crime scene evidence and pump his daughter for information as it wasn't the initial agreement. That took me a couple watches to get also.
Angel's dad saying "I was never in your way, boy" is the only time he has a true emotion if front of him and discusses things they probably should have talked about. Too bad he abused Angel instead of having those talks.
This is one of my favorite Angel flashback episodes.
Its always heartbreaking to hear how Liam received the name Angel.
I LOVE IT and don't think it's heartbreaking, remember Angel with a soul chooses to keep the name Angel that he took from his sister thinking he came back as an angel only to kill her instead, it really speaks to Angel the person WITH a soul's character, the way he broods and tortures himself. I think it's bad ass and romantic and tragic, like a remembrance to his sister that he killed.
@@w33d533d Where as everything you said is why I think the tragic-ness of choosing to live with that guilt is heartbreaking. And that is why I love it.
Expect something in the PO box in the next few days. 🙂
Oh gosh. I just pictured Angel in a class trying to learn how to talk to people 💀💀💀
"How do you do, fellow humans"
14:00 The car parts was a euphemism, he was using his position as a former cop to tamper with evidence.
You said we already know about Angel and his family but that is only true if the viewer watched Buffy. I can see why they would want to show his story in Angel for people who don't watch both. Don't get me wrong, I think everyone should watch Buffy 1-3 first but I can see some people not doing so; especially at the time of first airing.
The parallel between Angel and Kate (at least as I read it) is that they were both disappointments to their fathers and now will never get a chance to reconcile with them.
I really appreciate the parallels drawn between Kathy and Kate in 'The Prodigal'...
They share a name, of course, but there is an extra level to it; Angel killed Kathy in the past (and you can see the moment in that flashback when he realizes what he did to the only person who loved him unconditionally) which absolutely informs his desire to protect (in the sense of not wanting to be as directly responsible for hurting her, hence his desperate attempt to save Trevor) Kate in the present 🖤
I think this episode lost you a bit when Kate told Angel "I'm not your girlfriend"
Also you are about to hit a run of banger episodes of the Buffyverse
I think the episodes they were talking about where the title might spoil you were Buffy 4*19 and Angel 1*18 ("New Moon Rising" and "Five by Five", which you've seen by now, so it should be safe to look at the episode title before watching from now on (the Slayalive guide has even been updated to reflect that). I really miss watching you try to guess what the title means at the beginning of the video. And we all knew what the titles were before watching the episodes the first time they aired.
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I see Liam came from the posh end of Galway. In that period therefore a Protestant, so he's Scotch-Irish, not Irish Irish. Unlike Doyle, who screamed Irish Catholic.
Maybe this was one of those "at Angel we do gritty realism" episodes, re-enforcing the fact that when the fantasy world and the real world connect, in this case the LAPD in the form of Kate and her dad, people in the real world die.
Which is interesting, because most of the times we see religion represented in Angel's story, it's Catholicism.
@@caitlin329 I feel like TV writers like to default to Catholicism because it's an easier negative stereotype of Christianity to misrepresent.
Just gotta say, I'm so glad to have found another Kate stan.
Woot! This is a great episode
I started watching this for the first time the same time you did and I felt the exact same way you seem to do in this review. I liked the flashbacks and Kate and stuff in it but to me the whole episode is just very messy! Its ok to not like the episodes and I like it when your honest about that. You can always reflect on it later but I always think you have interesting reasonings for your thoughts so don't feel scared of sharing them! :)
I think episode 16 was much better and well paced! Excited to see your reaction to it!
I thought the actor who played Angel’s dad did a good job.
And this is where we learn angels real human name was Liam (Irish for William) so ya spike and angel have the same name basically.
According to Buffy The Vampire Slayer The Watcher's Guide book, Angel's real name before he turned into legendary most brutality sadistic vampire Angelus was Liam O'Malley.
Liam O'Malley/Angel/Angelus is prodigal son. He have daddy issues. He's rich playboy with hidden heart of gold. He love his little sister Kathy O'Malley unconditional love. He's good cool big brother to Kathy as he's looking after her and protect her. Kathy is his humanity and anchor.
I am so frustrated with how slowly you put out episodes, I almost want to join patreon!!!!
Just one question about this episode because it wasn't mentioned in the review. Does anyone know exactly this is called The Prodigal? The only thing that comes to mind is the parable of The Prodigal Son (which doesn't really tell me what the word even means.) While that was about parental conflict, I don't see much of a connection aside from that.
Prodigal means extravagant. The younger son demanded his inheritance from his father early then frittered it all away in debauchery. But in the end he comes home asking forgiveness and is reconciled with his father. Liam is a womanising layabout frittering his money away on drink, who will never get the chance to reconcile with his dad because Darla made him a vampire, and he murdered him.
I think the only connection with the flashbacks was both children wanting desperately to impress and make their dads proud. That’s about it. Everything else is different.
oooh... Editor Alley finished season 1? cant wait for Reaction Alley to catch up with the best 2 part story in season 1.
its weird you had so much trouble seeing the parallel they were trying to draw. i think its theyre both unapproachable father figures that want the best for their kids but because they are so distant their kids are unaware of it and it ends up destroying them. maybe you were putting more onto it than was needed?
It's normal and expected to miss things on the first watch.
More sleep for Alley.
Bit of consistency issues in this one. Vamoires aren't supposed to have breath yet when Angelis rises from the grave he exhales a big breath.
This episode will pay off later. It felt as a filler at the time, but later episodes will build on so much.
No "Buffy" episodes this week? Is YT giving you trouble over copyright?
2 words: "Daddy issues"
Buffy, Angel, Kate, anyone on this show has a bad relationship with their father.
But if you wonder,
Kate didn't have a good relationship with her dad. Angel felt like he knows how that feels, and that her relationship is still better than his was with his dad.
Side note, to let the audience know he has a thing for blonds. Specifically the ones who have a determined mind.
Just conjectures after this point.
This also ties into... how Angel feels attracted to someone who sees him as less and wans to prove them wrong.
Darla never saw Angel as her superior, Buffy never did, and Kate doesn't either.
While most girls think he is more than meets the eye. He doesn't trust people who think he is superior.
I don’t think she’ll see this, so could someone on her Patreon suggest that if she stops loading up the show with the expectation that it’s Buffy V2 and start looking at it as a character study of redemption and fighting no matter what the odds she might enjoy it more and stop missing everything?
Finally season 5 tomorrow.
(could be considered a bit spoilery...)
@@LeeDeeThe1 how?
@@itsmedino Just could set some expectations, but maby I just misread your comment.
@@LeeDeeThe1 better? I don't want to ruin the experience for Ally.
@@itsmedino I think so, like it probably was totally fine but I am a bit paranoid sometimes.
I think this episode is also suppost to show his past for people who haven't watched buffy. They are trying to make the show more independant
people you actually gave her 543 likes for only showing hey chopped up 10 minutes of a 50 minute episode without commercials.
Wesley is a real man.
I thought he was a blow up s** doll.
@@David-ve5iq what's a Spy doll?
@@fad23 A doll that looks like Melissa McCarthy.
After all, anyone who saves the universe from eternal bloodshed, horror and misery deserves to get what they've always wanted. Deserves to become a real boy.
Editing Alley is getting a little dark...
yeah its a weird episode for sure
I'm kinda scared you're going to stop watching Angel cause the first season is ROUGH but please, hang in there (little kitten), it gets better I swear.
Well I don't know if you should. For me personally the show never did it. I have watched it 3 times now (first when it aired in german TV, second when a friend lend me the DVDs to watch it in english, third last month because I want to follow some reactors through it and could not remember much) and I like some episodes and some characters, but overall it just does not get me hooked. Buffy is my favourite TV show ever. Angel is okay.
I...
Don't get the excitement over Kate. I'm sorry. I just ... I don't.
She's like an adult version of Buffy at the start of the show.
@@David-ve5iq I... Guess so? Thanks for trying. I guess she's just not for some people..
@@David-ve5iq I honestly don’t see that at all. Kate isn’t someone who is eager to surround herself with friends. She doesn’t really radiate warmth or love. She’s not an open or enthusiastic person. She’s not much of a leader or problem solver. The only qualities I see her share with Buffy is a feeling of responsibility to protect others and being blonde.
@@ItsMeBarnaby I guess there's a part of her character that is kind of a stock cop character. That she sees everything in black and white, so the moment she learns Angel was a mass murderer she is hostile toward him. Yes cliche. But it's often true. Although, I suspect it's more life imitating art than the other way around. A lot of people who become police have a notion of what police are based on art, television and radio--ever since _Dick Tracy_ and _The Untouchables._
As for Kate's character? She suffered from there being a change in the main cast. There was a lot of material to her character. On the one hand, she's a hard nosed detective. But on the other hand, she's naive about the supernatural, she's trusting about Angel, and she's got all these social insecurities--public speaking, her family troubles, etc. But because they had to reestablish the main cast, while sticking to the Case-of-the-Week format, they had no time for the character.
Honestly, be thankful that they took this direction with her character instead of turning her into a boring tsundere girlfriend for Angel. Her type of character more often than not becomes a sexist trope in any TV show, and they usually have to be written off because they become bland. Having her neg Angel constantly is unpleasant and annoying, but it's at least better storytelling than it could have been.
(No discussing any character arc for the character beyond season 1.)
But she's SOOOOOO gorgeous!
I never really cared for this episode. The flashbacks are interesting. The Kate stuff, bleh.
My problem is I never cared much for the moping lead character of this show. I was never into Buffy either but Sarah Michelle is a very good actress and her character has layers, but I was more interested in Willow, Xander and Giles. Buffy was the hero, I expected her to be heroic, have angsty moments, fire off the one-liners. Angel doesn't talk much, I need dialogue, he mopes and broods. So "Buffy" will always trump the "Angel" show for me. It has its moments though.
This episode soured me on Angel for quite a while. I like the Kate character - and the writers wasted her. The flashbacks, while interesting in themselves, didn't really serve the story. The Big Bad falls like a house of twigs. The whole thing felt slapdash.
I’d suggest watching Passion of the Nerd’s examination of The Prodigal. It’s a great episode.
@@OscarWild333 I have. I have my own thoughts and opinions.
You’re not missing anything, the flashbacks don’t quite relate to what’s going on. It reminds me of this quote from Rick and Morty:
Jerry - Sounds like our stories were connected by a theme.
Rick - Not really, Jerry. Probably a cosmetic connection your mind mistakes for thematic.
this was a really bad ep ngl