Buffy the Vampire Slayer Talk || s6e13 "Dead Things"
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 พ.ย. 2023
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I really love how this episode elevates the Trio from a laughing stock to genuine evil that exists.
the banality of evil
Also the big fracture begins.
Warren, not the trio, and he was already pretty evil.
@@ireallyreallyhategoogle And Andrew's willingness to go along with it and thinking it's fun to get away with murder. It takes a lot for him to come back from this.
@@TheNoybusiness Andrew is just a desperate follower who would go along with anyone just to belong. The only reason he's into summoning demons is his older brother.
The end scene with Tara and Buffy is so powerful. Buffy's raw pain and Tara's pure kindness and compassion is incredible.
Every time Buffy ask Willow for Board and Lodgings, Willow does the Tabula Rasa spell
Can I have five bucks for a pint? * Tabula rasa. * Can I have bucks for a pint?
Nah I though Willow took a break from magic
“Dawnie, I have to,” is also what Buffy says in The Gift. I can only imagine how triggering that was for Dawn. She’s been through so much.
Have I said, recently, that Tara is the absolute best of them? The best friend, the best adult, just the all-round best? Because she is. Everyone should have a friend like Tara.
Buffy beating up Spike while calling him soul-less & dead inside reminded me a lot of Faith when she was fighting with Buffy & Angel. Beating up someone else while calling them all of the things they felt about themselves were such deep moments for both characters.
Yes. It’s called projection
I L-O-V-E how the relationship between Buffy and Tara is developed through this season.
I really appreciate your compassion for Dawn. so many in the fandom just complain about her and write her off as a whiney brat and seem to overlook all that she's been through at such a young age
literally! She has to deal with the fact that her entire life was fake and being hunted by an emotionally stunted hell goddess, her mom died and then her sister died leaving her alone with her sister's friends and a robot who wears her sister's face. Like the child is traumatized, ofc she's gonna be a menace???
@@rue...whenwasthisyes but honestly Dawn taking off after Buffy said “I’m not going anywhere” was dumb and bratty. I thought she DIDNT want Buffy to leave. She’s giving mixed messages..
Spike, in getting what he wants, is gaining more confidence in letting the bad boy out to play, oblivious to the fact that Buffy is making bad decisions in a self-destructive spiral of depression.
I never thought Spike was oblivious to Buffy’s depression. He’s getting what he wants out of it and is happy to exploit it to get more,hence his creepy balcony speech.
Oh he’s not oblivious. He deliberately manipulates her
@@4everbuffyloveryes. He’s still better than souless Angel tho by a LONG shot. Spoilers
In season 7 he FINALLY goes to get his soul..
On he handcuffs:
Later, in the scene with Tara, Buffy’s rubbing her wrists, so, yeah, she let him cuff her.
Tara stutters when Buffy suggests that she came back wrong - it shows Tara's hesitation and insecurity about the spell Willow used and the motivations to bring Buffy back
To be fair, Willow though5 Buffy was in Hell. But heaven..
I felt that buffy turning herself in was a direct mirror of Faith not accepting that she killed a human
Yah but difference is, the TRIO let Buffy think that
Re: the slightly lower-than-expected ratings on IMDB - I've always suspected that the reason is because this season has enough of a tonal and thematic departure that it leaves some fans (especially less mature fans) feeling uncomfortable or icky. Just like Buffy in this ep, something feels "wrong" or "off" under the surface - which is of course the whole damn point of the season's "Life is the Big Bad" arc. And episodes like this really encapsulate that unfamiliar feeling, for better and worse.
You hit the nail on the head with saying this feels like a big turning point of the season. It's the moment when characters are being forced to confront their own brokenness, and decide whether to try fixing it (like Buffy) or justifying/relishing it (like Warren).
Honestly I think the Warren drags it down. Adam Busch is part of the Buffyverse acting family, and he had a tough job, but I don't think he gets the mix quite right on Warren. Mostly because Warren needs a level of charisma he doesn't pull off. Warren is absolutely a weasel, but he's got followers and managed to draw Katrina in, nothing on the screen conveys how he manages that.
I hate to say it but he needs a little of the Trump magic. Love or hate him, you can't deny Trump is magnetic. There's no explaining it. It just is.
@@basharic3162 Trump is a blight.
Buffy: "Dawnie, I have to." Same thing she said to her at the end of S5.
This is when you begin to realize that S6 is the darkest one yet. Making a woman a sexual slave and then killing her to cover it up. About as dark as it can get. So far (but no spoilers.)
and of course, it just keeps getting darker.
And Spike is making Buffy a willing sex slave (because she's masochistic & depressed).
@@fiddiehacked "Willing" is a stretch, to be honest. He's not forcing himself on her here, but there is a LOT of emotional and psychological manipulation going on.
@@fiddiehacked They're both using each other for sex. Spike sees he can use her mental state to his advantage, but Buffy's not a sex slave.
@@fiddiehackedBuffy is guilty on her own way tho
Good thing Spike finally gets his soul in S7
But souless Spike is still MILES better than Angelus. Buffy couldn’t sleep with Angel without Angeles going on a killing spree..
This is the turn in the story where we realize that some of the scariest monsters are just real people.
I love when Buffy and Tara have scenes together, so rare but so good!
Buffy has been using Spike as an emotional outlet. She can work out her frustrations and anger on him and he is resilient enough to take it. Buffy feels a darkness in her. She feels she doesn't belong, which is understanding as death must be pretty traumatic. She feels she can't take it to her friends because they will judge her. Spike wont judge her, because he's been the monster. She can say or do anything to him and he won't look down on her.
Spike is infatuated Buffy. This is not love. When you love someone, you do what you can to help them to get better, but Spike is fanning those feelings of isolation because he knows she will turn to him if she doesn't feel she can go to anyone else.
Both of them are addicted to each other, and both are abusing each other. It's one of the reasons I love this show over something like Twilight. In that they portray the abuse as something to envy, but here they show how destructive it can be.
Well DUH
Spike doesn’t have his soul yet so he ain’t gonna he 100% moral
But Soulless Spike is still miles BETTEE than Angeles ever was
Buffy could never depend on Angelus. It could ONLY be Angel
Whereas in S5, Buffy trusts Spike to watch Dawn and Joyce..
I feel like the scene where Katrina breaks out of the thrall she's under is really cathartic, because there's this huge trope in media of 'harmless misogyny' (e.g big bang theory etc) where they'll portray this type of man (like warren, jonathon and andrew) that don't fit the stereotype of manhood. the media usually undermines their masculinity for humour, making them seem harmless. then, has them be terribly misogynist - portraying it in a light where it's like "haha look at this guy trying to be a manly man he couldn't possibly be a real threat." when in reality, that type of man is a threat to women; does seriously injure, rape and murder women; their actions are harmful. this episode sets up that same model of behaviour and then gives the woman in a scene a real voice instead of a laugh track under her voiced concerns. it shows the reality of what can happen when misogny is left to fester in this type of man, and when this kind of 'adorkable misogny' is normalised.
Warren is possibly the scariest villain in the Buffyverse
SMG is just such a great actress. truly amazing
My take on Spike in this episode is that it shows how he is still a fundamentally selfish person. Every time he tries to get Buffy to say that she has actual feelings for him or to acknowledge him in front of her friends or even just to have a normal conversation with him, she pushes him away. She is willing to indulge all of her darkest impulses with him, but she won't let him step into the light with her. So he starts to think in this episode that the only way he will be able to "keep" her is to separate her from her friends and convince her that the dark is where she belongs. He doesn't see how much this is damaging her psyche because it is playing on her worst fears. He is just trying to hold on to the crumbs she is willing to give him.
Yes this is how SOULESS Spike is so we shouldn’t acting shocked by his behavior
He still miles better than souless Angel
In season 7 things get better with Spike! I won’t spoil details tho..
Buffy and Tara's friendship is pure. I wish we got to see more of it over the course of the show.
Such a dark episode but so good. Very interesting for Buffy. I love that Trina called it out as rape. Warren is definitely evil in a different way than we're used to in Buffy. A more human evil. I feel so bad for Dawn when she thinks Buffy is going to jail and says she's never there anyway. Tara is such a good friend. None of the other scoobies would be non-judgmental and say "it's ok if you love him and it's ok if you don't". I also kind of thought Spike was being out of character at the bronze at least according to how he has been.
Keep in mind Tara was kinda going through a similar thing with Willow.
She chose to not give up her agency and stay with a selfish abuser, but she still loves Willow, even though a part of her probably hates Willow at the same time.
She probably even asked herself "why did I let her wipe my memory again" echoing the "why do I let him do those things to me" from Buffy . . . and countless numbers of other women who have stayed with an abuser even after they realized they were being abused for reasons they can't articulate. Up to and including "because I deserve it."
@basharic3162 Tara broke up with Willow though. They weren't together at this point cuz. Willow raped Tara and chose magic and Tara was strong enough to say she couldn't be there.
@@leora8278 Yep, but being able take action and protect yourself from abusers doesn't make you stop having the feelings that got you there in the first place.
Given Tara's familial history, and what she went through with Glory, her response to Willow tampering with her memory should have been more like Katrina's (as she came out of the whammy) in this episode. It's not. Because Tara still has feelings for Willow, whereas Katrina had nothing but revulsion for Warren before he put the whammy on her.
Tara doesn't react with revulsion. Just disappointment. In Willow for failing and herself for giving Willow a chance to fail again. A chance Willow absolutely did not deserve. Because she cares about Willow. And like Buffy some part of her blames herself for allowing it. So maybe not to the same degree, because it's always different, but enough that she knows exactly what Buffy is feeling.
The cops ruled it a suicide. So no bite marks. I guess Spike didn't have a taste of the dead body he thought would never be found. 🤔
Buffy instantly deciding she has to go to the police has a lot to do with how she feels about herself right now.
She feels like she's wrong/soulless or bad because she doesn't fully understand her depression herself. She feels guilty because she can't stand being around her sister and friends and prefers to be with a vampire/demon instead. When she punches Spike, all the things she says to him she also says about *herself*. That's how she feels about herself.
Because of that it's so very important for her to do "the right thing" by turning herself in: She desperately tries to proof to herself that she's not morally corrupt like Faith was, that she's still a good person.
Well in season two with the judge. Even he said that spike reeks of humanity. But Angelus was clean.
To understand why Spike starts to treat Buffy that way in this ep after their conversation, just see his relationship with Drusilla. He drove Drusilla mad. That's his default way of love is to isolate someone with him. Because he is a soulless vamp of course but also because of his history of rejection prior to being sired. He is very possessive and is using this on Buffy at this point.
Buffy's return from the afterlife turned out to be far more complicated than Willow imagined! And the three jerks don't seem so harmless anymore, do they? RIP,Katrina!
30:30 I think that scene where Buffy was hitting Spike she was saying to Spike what she feels about herself, So She's beating herself up by beating Spike up.
Also Faith beating herself up when she was in Buffy's body.
That ending scene between Buffy and Tara was the best part.
Remember Spike is a demon with no soul. The chip has held him back from his full demonic urges but now he is fully capable of being his true self with her because he can hurt her. When he was with Drusilla he "loved" her but their relationship was super messed up. They both got off on sadistic violence against each other. He doesn't see the difference between love and violence, the demon in him is attracted to the darkness of the Slayer not Buffy as a person. Angel with a soul loved Buffy's soul but the vampire Spike is obsessed with the darkness of "The Slayer".
I can't really remember Dru and Spike being violent to each other? Violent to other people for sure. And yes Dru/Angel was obviously an issue but I never really saw much violence?
It's more implied. Spike mentions chains to Harmony in "The Harsh Light of Day" and she says that she's not Drusilla. Drusilla clawed his face in a scene in "School Hard" and licked the blood away.
@@knowledge-girl Ok, it's still a bit of a reach to say they both got off on sadistic violence, like the op is saying. Their first episode ended up with them watching TV together!
@@davidgorman994 from everything Spike and Dru have said to each other, things mentioned on Angel and the way they act separately it’s heavily implied their relationship was full of violence.
@@g1xrider13 and yet we don't see any evidence of that on screen. They are still soulless vampires and certainly got off on violence when they inflicted it on other people, but it was never shown they "got off on sadistic violence against each other"
I always feel like the episode where Buffy is outside the police station and Spike is telling her that he took care of it was her speaking to herself and beating herself (literally Spike), lines like "What did you do?", "You have no soul", "You are dead inside", "You can't feel anything real". They all make sense for speaking to Spike but at that time it's also what she thinks about herself as well, she believes that she didn't come back from the dead right, she thinks she's dead inside, that she can't feel things, that she's soulless, etc.
I don’t know what the current fandom is saying about Willow & Tara helping out w/ Buffy’s financial situation, but years ago, the majority of the fandom called them freeloaders.
Some thoughts on this episode:
1. The Trio scenes with Katrina are some of the creepiest in the entire Buffyverse. Warren is one of the most loathsome villains in the series. The other two are also guilty, but seem to be in denial about how vile their actions are. And the disturbing thing is, I bet a LOT of people, like Andrew and Johnathan would convince themselves that r*pe by mind control isn't "real" r*pe- just like a lot of people think consent from someone who's drunk is valid. It takes Katrina confronting them with the reality of what it is (r*pe), and then Warren crossing the line into murder, to start to make them realize what it is that they're doing.
2. This show has a very toxic, cynical take on love, and its one of my least favourite aspects of it, but this episode does have some very strong moments regardless.
3.I really, really wish there were more Buffy and Tara scenes.
After Spike asks, "Do you trust me?", we cut to later in the day & Buffy hides her hands & wrists under the table - cuff bruises? Buffy is in a spiral of depression, and well-experienced Spike can't resist sexually torturing (& satisfying) Buffy. Nothing can make him pop exquisitely like a slayer... [Faith quote].
Ultra-cool that Buffy confides in Tara (did you catch the stutter?) - though not the post funeral bonding she imagined. After Oz, Tara is the calmest & wisest of the Scoobies.
Where do we go from here?? Anything is possible in this Whedon-verse, yet something defying expectations is most likely!
ahh yes. the episode you stop forgetting about the 3 bozos…
This a really disturbing episode. Warren is clearly a misogynist psychopath, but even Andrew and Jonathan see women as objects. Spike's treatment of Buffy in the club is to humiliate and degrade her, to bring her down to his level. It's a reminder that he has no soul and Buffy goes along with it because her self worth is at rock bottom and she just wants to feel something even if it's disgust. Sarah is such an amazing actress. That end scene is heartbreakinjg.
Souless Spike is still miles better than Angelus tho
Angel was cursed with a soul
Spoiler: Spike fought for his later on..
Imagine the look on her face when Alley realizes that Soylent Green was referenced in Season 1 Episode 5...
This was the episode where I first discovered the Buffy series.
I'd seen the movie, and while it was okay, I wasn't terribly impressed. (YMMV as always). So I'd never been motivated to seek out the TV show.
Well, while I was traveling overseas on business, I went looking for something in English to watch and discovered this very episode. After scraping my jaw up off the floor, I shocked out the next episode the next week (still overseas although in a different country).
And when I got back, I tracked down the series and got caught up before finishing the series as it finished its run.
I think we can see the way Buffy is now with Spike is that her sex addiction to him is reaching critical levels. Even though she needs him to fulfill her desires we know that deep down she knows this to be wrong, even though we see a soulless Spike seem to have genuine feelings at this stage. Buffy of course can confide in Tara, as she is still very much a periphery character in the group, and Buffy feels she can trust her without the others knowing. The Trio from being somewhat slapstick in earlier episodes are now becoming very sinister indeed, or rather Warren who is totally dominating the other two. Warren meeting Katrina again and treating her like this is terrible, this is actual sexual abuse (mirroring Rohypnol spiking), and the other two just seem to go along with it, as they a puerile idiots. When Warren murders Katrina, we can really see how totally evil he has become. The part back in The Bronze with Spike and Buffy is so telling, as she cannot resist the temptation from Spike, and he is questioning whether she really belongs with The Scoobies, again since switching Networks we can really see the adult tone of the show now. The devious plot by The Trio to frame Buffy for Katrina's murder spectacularly backfires thanks really to Spike begging Buffy to not go in, and I think it is so uncomfortable to watch Buffy beat Spike outside the Police Station, bordering on abuse after he tells her he loves her ' he says to her you always hurt the one you love'. When Buffy hears Katrina's name she realises the truth. A powerful ending when she opens up to Tara, saying 'why do I let him do these things to me' Buffy seems to be painting herself as a victim here, which in a way she is, but she is very much a willing partner unable to control her sexual urges. A terrific episode a 100% improvement on the preceding episode.
Don't be intrigued if you want to sustain your sanity. Just hold onto your butt and ride the ride, baby.
Buffy just became an extreme sport.
"I'll find her, tie her up. And torture her till she likes me again."
This is exactly who Spike is which is what the writers were trying to portray. It's perfectly in character. Any moment of supposed selflessness is what's out of character for Spike. This relationship is abusive, toxic and wrong. That's the whole point of this arc.
Yes. All this. The balcony scene is Spike attempting to isolate Buffy from her friends.
Actually that's more who Drucilla is and Drucilla is like that because if Angelus and Spike is like that because Drucilla was his only love for most of his undead life. In a way it's not Spikes fault he's like that. William would never. Early vamped William probably wouldn't think that way either.
And it wasn't Spikes first strategy even in that scenario.
@@tikamajere316when this aired a message board I was on had a big discussion about how much the members enjoyed public sex :)
Everybody treats the Trio like a joke but I think there were always meant to be a real threat and show how dangerous incels like them can be. It was ahead of its time in that way.
Same with Spike in a way. Nothing changes the fact that he's still an evil vampire without a soul.
Yep, incels can go any of the three ways of the trio. Rapist murderer like Warren, desperate to feel accepted like Andrew, or desperate, depressed and suicidal like Jonathan.
The problem is that when they get together, the worst ones drag the others down.
This episode is so important. It colors all the relationships in it a starkly different color and it's so dark and twisted. First run I missed it because back in the day if you missed an ep of something and you didn't remember to set up a VCR or DVR to record it it was just gone lol When I did my first rewatch years and years later my mind was blown. lol
Part of Buffy turning herself in was about her running away, but also slayers don't kill people.. she felt like she should..
When buffy asked tara did i come back wrong while working at the double meat she grabs her wrist implying she had also worn the handcuffs answering tara he can hurt me.
Spike asking buffy do you trust me is because buffy being handcuffed he could kill her she couldnt stop him do you trust me enough for me to tie you up.
Spike is still soulless. you nailed it @26:29. Spike does love Buffy and he changed himself to be someone that she would want to be with. Now that he is physically getting what he wants from her, he is letting his dark side out. Remember how violent his relationships with Dru and Harm were.
Everytime people think some of the spike-buffy toxic scenes ruins spike character i wonder if they remember what spike does with dru and harmony
@@AnatoleVGCThey don't people only choose to remember that Spike is funny and charming not that he's a soulless monster that would happily kill and torture people.
This is what makes him complex. Anything evil he does is the norm and can be looked past specifically because he is soulless. The intriguing thing is that he chooses to do any good at all. The question is does love defy the concepts of good and evil. Love is subjective . You can love someone while being terrible for eachother in a variety of different ways.
Question is....what would you do to be better for the person you love?
I think Spike as a vampire has always been capable of loving but his version of love is corrupted. He started his obsession with buffy by being a stalker, stealing from her, violating her personal space, commissioning the Buffy bot, etc. He hasn't changed by this point, he is only taking advantage and feeding Buffy's self hate because is the only way she can go back to him.
@@MrSupertallblackman It baffles me how people forgive him so easily. He is literally gaslighting Buffy and lowering her self-steem feeding her self hate just so she feels bad enough to go back to him he knows healthy Buffy would never be with him. SPOILER ALERT:
Even when Josh comebacks to clean the mess by showing him trying to rape Buffy, people still ship them. People are insane, no wonder the Twilight movies did so well. so many people romanticizes abuse.
"Are we singing? Is there singing again???" THE FEAR IN HER VOICE. XD
I think another part of Buffy immediately wanting to go to the police is everything that happened with Faith. She has personally witnessed a Slayer kill someone, try to cover it up, fail, and just try to ignore killing someone, ultimately spiraling into evil. And, worried that she has come back wrong, is a little terrified that she'll go down Faith's path if she doesn't control herself immaculately.
The scene where Buffy answers Spike with, "Never," for me is a reflection of ep. 3X17 "Enemies" when Buffy wanted to take a break from Angel after he kissed Faith and he asked if she was still his girl she answered, "Always."
Also the "I dumped the body," situation is a repetition of when Faith dumped deputy mayor Allan Finch's body and it was immediately found too.
The Sunnydale police: 13 stabs in the back, 3 of them fatal, obviously a suicide.
I think part of the problem with Spike is that he is, after all, a soulless demon. He loves Buffy in his way, but he's still a demon whose usual ways of loving are violent, toxic, abusive, mutually so in many ways, but having been with other demons it wasn't as much of an issue. But Buffy is a human with a soul and conscience, and she feels shame around her relationship with Spike. And I think his demon nature is to lean into that because that's a titillating thing for demons, but since she's human it doesn't work.
As for Buffy wanting to turn herself in, I think we need to remember that Buffy is deeply Lawful Good. She thinks she has killed someone, so she goes to turn herself in, no matter the consequences even to Dawn. Which of course hurts Dawn because she's a traumatized kid who has lost so many people in her life already.
I think Tara was the best person out of all the Scoobies for Buffy to be truthful about Spike to. Tara is deeply empathetic and doesn't judge, in a way I just can't see Willow, Xander or Anya doing. But it's a bit sad that the show doesn't seem to want to give Tara more scenes like that. She really took the Mother role for the group and I think it's showing that she isn't in it anymore due to Willow's abuse.
Fwiw, I actually think that the issue with the bills was probably also a bit sidetracked for the Scoobies. I imagine they contributed what they could to feed everyone and pay the mortgage, but they were focussed on bringing Buffy back so weren't looking to make any longterm plans. Still unfortunate the way it was handled though, because it's not clear whether this is supposed to be a mistake the group made (in line with the theme of this season being everyone screwing up) or whether it's just an oversight by the writers.
Regarding the Trio, I really loved the way we were able to watch them descend. They're trying to be supervillains and that's funny because they're idiots, but they're still intending to be villains and do villainy things. It was unavoidable that something major such as murder would happen. I think it really shows how we can underestimate people when we just think of them as funny morons, even though they keep announcing that they intend to do evil things.
Such a GOOD episode, and SO underrated. I think it's in my top 10 episodes. But I love the pain and misery.
It's great to see one episode with a big bad evil dealt with in a comedic way, and then have this episode full of dark meanings and deeply troubled people.
Such a great contrast between those two episodes.
Speaking of the music, I was not a fan of Thomas Wanker coming in after Chris Beck. But he did have his moments, and this episode was one of them, along with an amazing song by Bush. Also I'm surprised the episode only has a 7.5 on IMDB, it's maybe my favorite of the season, not counting the musical. Definitely a major turning point in the overall story of season 6.
Ok so this shows exactly what Spike thinks of love is. Hurting the one you care about till they like you.
Yes this is how SOULESS Spike is. Not soulful Spike. You ppl can’t only judge him by his souless self
That’s not fair. How come y’all don’t complain about Angelus HUH?
Oh yah because of ANGEL. You only look at Angel and not his souless counterpart
Therefore Spike should he judged the SAME way. After he gets his soul of course…
extremely dark episode but it had to be. you nailed it at @18:15. This is the turning point. This season has so many bright episodes. While there have been hints at the season being darker than the rest, this is where the show comes out and tells you to buckle up.
Season 6 is pain incarnate. Dark, depressing and disturbing. And you haven't even seen the half of it yet.
Spike doesn’t have a soul. Even though he loves Buffy its a selfish twisted version of love. He likes to exploit Buffy’s depression and trauma to make her feel dark enough and twisted enough to be with him. He could never be good enough for her so he will drag her down to him. He doesn’t care if she loses her friends over it in fact it would be ideal. It’s got all the elements of an abusive relationship. It’s caused Buffy a lot of emotional turmoil and she finally breaks down to Tara. Because we should all remember that if Spike ever had that chip removed he would have no qualms against killing and doing all the things he used to do. He might refrain for Buffy’s sake but he would see that as a big deal that she should be grateful for and when she isn’t I don’t think he would refrain for long.
This episode is such a turning point in the season, but somehow I always forget about it 🙈
This season is all about growing up and the trio are stuck in arrested development.
People seem to forget that Spike is still evil.
I'm in my 60's, so my generation's lived with the harmless love spell/potion trope for much longer. Here's how it was taken apart for those of us who watched Dark Shadows as children.
Angelique Bouchard is a witch in love with Barnabas Collins. She uses her powers for evil but the line she will not cross is enchanting Barnabas to love her. This doesn't keep her from casting spells on those around him (including love spells) to manipulate him towards her.
Loving season 6 and all its darkness, is ok. For those of us that love season 6, please enjoy.
Can we agree that the Lethe’s Bramble spell used in ‘All The Way’ is the magical spell equivalent of the Cerebral Dampener technological equipment used in ‘Dead Things’? They’re both intended for mind control after all. True, the spell is only used for making someone forget important information and the Cerebral Dampener is used to make someone a willing sex slave. But the intended use of them is practically the same thing. To extract someone of their autonomy. From their capability and capacity to make full informed choices and give full consent to whatever is happening to them at any moment. Technology VS Magic is at play once again and both are used in Season 6 to do insanely questionable and abusive things. The division between antagonism/villainy and protagonism/heroism is no longer clear.
I can't agree. There's a similarity, certainly, but there's also a difference. The differences might not count legally and morally, but on an emotional level, they strike different chords. We say "informed consent" because on a gut level, we feel there's a difference between lack of information and lack of consent. Both evil, but in different ways. And one of the things I've come to understand is that evil doesn't just exist, there's more than one.
@@menachemsalomon could you please elaborate on this because I don’t quite understand what you’re saying with it.
There is different forms of rape/sexual assault. Some appear to be worse than others. For example physically forced rape Vs gentle date-rape or statutory rape.
What happens in this episode is a mixed bag of both. Katrina is being forced but only mentally. Warren is not forcing himself on her, he has made it so she seduces him.
She’s the one being made to perform on him.
With Willow and Tara in ‘OMWF’ this isn’t quite the case. Tara isn’t being made to sexually perform by Willow intentionally but she’s still missing her mental autonomy so she still hasn’t given valid consent. And Willow knows this. She might not realize that what she’s doing is sexual assaulting Tara but much like Jonathan and Andrew don’t either - she still does it. It’s still assault.
As soon as Katrina calls out what they’re doing to her as “rape” they double back. And Willow would do the same thing if Tara called out what she did to her as “rape”.
She doesn’t though. She just calls it a mental violation and that made Willow double back as she never intended that.
But does it make a difference what the perpetrator intends? Surely only the victim can decide whether it’s rape or not.
@@Girl4Music Actually, that's a good point. The dampener is analogous to -- or more than analogous, just another form of a date rape drug, which I would put in the physical rape column. (Though I see why it might not be a perfect fit.)
Somehow, the bramble feels more like tricking someone, having a relationship under false pretenses. I don't know of a good real-world analogy, but it's enough of a difference that _Overboard_ earned a recent (gender swapped) remake, and both versions seem to be rather popular.
@@menachemsalomon It’s the magical equivalent of a GHB drug like rohypnol. It immediately affects the mind and causes the victim who consumes it to be forgetful, confused and, in some extreme cases, drowsy. It makes the victim relaxed and lowers their inhibitions and can make them excited and receptive to physical and emotional stimulation even when they would not will it to be.
Given that the narrative is magic = drugs I think this is a fairly appropriate analogy for understanding Lethe’s Bramble in a real life situation. It is a date-rape drug analogous with the cerebral damper but intended for use differently.
With Katrina it is mind control via brainwashing.
With Tara it is mind control via memory erasure.
Both are a form of rape/sexual assault. Both are a deception or manipulation. Both are destructive and abusive. Both are gaslighting. Both are evil.
It doesn’t matter what is intended by them.
What matters is how the victim views it as.
The only way you can’t perceive the Willow/Tara situation as rape/sexual assault is because it’s not framed as a rape/sexual assault scene and Tara doesn’t refer to it as rape. She calls it violation.
But it really is no different to what Warren does. Not in a real world scenario. Both are date-rape.
The low ratings are often because some fans will rate anything low that portrays Spike or Buffy in a negative way. I agree this was a very good episode. Maybe some of these episodes were ahead of their time, too dark for people in the 90s. PS -- the handcuff stuff implies that Buffy and Spike are doing BDSM. Yeah, Spike and Buffy are taking each other down further into darkness. The reason is that she is depressed and he is a VAMPIRE without a soul.
I'm glad Tara comforts Buffy by mentioning that Spike has done some good and introducing some nuance into the Buffy/Spike relationship. Because I think it's more than just Buffy lashing out to feel something physically so that it gives some comfort emotionally. I think some part of Buffy really does love Spike at this point, which is part of why Tara asks. But Buffy doesn't want to admit it because she doesn't want to repeat her history with loving men who turn out to be bad or hurt her. She thinks it's wrong this time because Spike is bad up front, unlike Angel. Spike is different but still very dangerous and she knows if she starts opening up to him emotionally she's risking being hurt a lot more than if it was just a sexual thing.
Spike's doing the Phantom of the Opera dramatic theatre thing (don't tell Angel). He does have love for her but it is obviously soulessly corrupted. It's sort of like with Riley in that Buffy is giving mixed signals and it is exasperated because of how rough they play in (and out of)bed. To him, Buffy responds positively to the more rough loving. When he trys to get close to Buffy like he used to on a more vulnerable level, she tells him he's disgusting and vile.
Why then did Buffy not just say that she doesn't love him? It is obvious she doesn't love him. What if she did say no? She's using him to feel. Actually she does feel, she feels like trash. She's basically throwing herself into the trash and that trash bin's name is Spike. Not because he treated her like trash, not at first, but simply because he holds the title of vampire. Rememeber he was the one who understood what she needed out of the grave and she repays him by telling him how filthy is is, projecting her earthly suffering onto him. But now he's just giving her what she wants, which is to be treated like trash and that's enabling his evil side. Spike wants Buffy's love and it doesn't matter if it is in the form of her abuse. Vampires don't mind being hit and treated roughly, it's just second base to them. Dru and Harmony (mostly Dru) was turned on by the violence and turture. Spike actually tried many times to be sweet with Dru and she just didn't care for that. Dru liked the abuse and the drama and the manipulation.
So why can Spike hit her? My theory is either that the chip is working, but Buffy consents to allow Spike to hurt her and so it allows it. (Theoretically the chip mearly stops violence, not prefenting inflicting pain itself, an act of love such as sex could inflict some pain but not be seen as violence. R@pe is not sex, it is violence and the chip can decifer the difference between consentual, albeit impared, rough sex and violence). Or it has malfunctioned and he's holding back and chooses to stop himself from biting her and completely turning her. If he truly wanted her in the shadows, he would just make her a vampire and then he could selfishly have her forever.
And this is why thesis are written on Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
The trio sort of remind me of The Gangreen Gang from Powerpuff Girls. Technically villains but generally pretty inept and harmless, until they're not.
I still believe that the Buffy/Spike scene in the balcony of The Bronze was in Buffy's imagination. Has Joss or anyone confirmed or explained that it was actually Spike, or just (as I believe) Buffy's guilty conscience imagining what Spike would say to her?
@34:40 They didn't break up because Willow got addicted to magic, that they could have worked through.
They broke up because Willow used magic to manipulate Taras mind.
She might not be as bad as Warren, but Willow doesn't have high ground over Tuckers brother and Jonathan here.
Especially not because she was physically intimate with her in the meanwhile her mind was manipulated. It’s not the same as brainwashing somebody into being a willing sex slave. But it still is intentional deception.
Loved it too. I'm a big season 6 stan. My 3rd favorite of the series.
It may have been even more of an homage to Soylent Green when you consider that in the original book (Make Room! Make Room!) Soylent products were vegan meat substitutes, not people. It’s another case of the big Hollywood adaptation completely loosing the point in the process of punching it up a little.
The end scene is my favorite in the entire show
Since you mentioned the last episode, I adore it. The idea of the food being people works and is poignant on a few levels. Firstly, the contents of fast food has always been a sick joke because of their “proprietary” and “secret” ingredients. It was a big thing at one point to really speculate. Second, it’s a great metaphor for the soul sucking, all consuming nature of working in that world. The idea that it literally consumes its workers and THAT’s the secret ingredient: the spiritual (and physical) death of its employees.
And then the irony that it’s not even people, it’s veggies 😂 The megalex of meat isn’t even meat. It’s great
I think the whole chip not working on her it’s like her being an updated version of humanity.
Think of it this way…. Spike’s chip is like an app that needs an updated because Buffy is from the new world ( technically she’s born again)
I seem to recall DMP being poorly received. Buffy spent a few months being dead and frugal, and they dug into the insurance money.
"you don't want to be here with me" says Dawn a day after Buffy turned down an invitation to hang out because she wanted to just stay in and chill with Dawn.
Buffy is now Dawn's guardian and she notices Buffy's absence even more now because 1) Joyce is gone 2) Buffy is always off with Spike and already emotional distant/depressed 3) Dawn's life isn't endanger for Buffy to *need* to be present, so Dawn feels like Buffy only spends time with her because she has to, not because she wants to. Honestly, we've seen Dawn hurt by Buffy so many times and we don't often see Buffy trying to apologize or make up for the times that she feels neglected.
SPOILERS FOR ALL SEASON SIX
There was a moment behind the scenes where Sarah Michelle Gellar went to the writers at the same time the writers were talking about storylines. And both of them were asking "Has Buffy hit depression bottom yet, because she doesn't feel like Buffy anymore." I don't know for sure when that episode was, but I always imagined both Sarah Michelle Gellar and the writers were talking of this episode when they met to have said conversation.
Fun fact: Adam Busch (Warren) and Amber Benson (Tara) were a couple for about 7 years.
Its sad that Katrina literally had to spell it out for them to realize the seriousness of their actions. Something we can assume Johnathan was already guilty of with "the twins" (no names even given) in Superstar. It just makes me think of all the men out there that are equally as clueless because of the skewed gender norms in our culture and history and no one has bothered to teach younger generations any different because "equality is woman's issue" sooo aggravating.
Hugely underrated episode. This is one of the great ones.
Awesome reaction, Alley. :)
Yeah, I kind of wish Jonathan would join the Scoobies full time. Not as the “superstar” or anything like that.
It’s just he is another character that has magic in their arsenal and the Gang wouldn’t have to rely on Willow all the time. Don’t know how she’d feel about that though with being so obsessed with wanting to be useful.
In 'Superstar,' Jonathan fought evil. It was a big part of his fantasy (along with endless wealth and fame and beautiful blonde twins 😁) to be friends with Buffy and part of the gang. That's why I always found it hard to buy him as part of The Trio. In his fantasies he wants to be the Good Guy Hero. Here, when it finally sinks in (too late) that he's part of something truly evil, he feels guilt and revulsion that the other two don't.
@@DanielOrme Right. So he should have been part of the Scooby Gang instead of the Trio.
@@Girl4Music But they already had a beta male in Xander. You're right they should have invited in the group, though, so he wouldn't have fell into the hole he got himself in.
@@Madbandit77 always more room for males. Especially since Giles was no longer around.
@@Girl4Music True, but I think they should have invited Jonathan into the Scooby Gang by season four or five.
7.5? That seems too low to me. This is such a good episode and so important to the story. I just can't envision it scoring so low. But different strokes. . .
While the Mayor and Glory are obviously more powerful and dangerous, I straight up consider Warren to be up there with Angelus as the most absolutely vile and inhumanly evil Big Bad of the entire series. Hell, I’d even go far to say Angelus has more redeeming qualities than Warren, he’s just the frickin’ Worst. Makes me wonder how bad he would have been if he’d become a vampire…
1) never forget the Sunnydale Police are deeply stupid.
2) The thing with Buffy beating on Spike in the alley is everything she's saying is directed at herself through him. She thinks she's the soulless monster who can't feel anything because that's how depression can make you feel.
3) Spike doesn't have a soul. Vampires can love but it's always selfish, possessive, and narcissistic. Thanks to William being a romantic and a poet Spike is more empathic than a typical vamp, but he uses it for his gratification, through his filter.
4) In a lot of ways you can look at Spike and the Trio as two sides of the toxic masculinity coin. The trio are quintessential incels, but Spike is also. He can't satisfy his most basic and urgent physical drive, so he fixates on satisfying the next best urge (sex) with a specific woman. It went unrequited until Buffy, like Katrina, against her better judgement, gave in. Now he's got what he wants but knows he won't be able to keep it because he's too damaged. He's a dog worrying a bone (ha!) and doing everything he can to keep it.
I think I read it somewhere, so it's not mine, but it's a fantastic exercise. Trade Adam Busch for James Marsters in the role of Spike. Change absolutely nothing else, and Spike then looks a LOT less appealing.
Yeah, Spike is in love with Buffy. Yes he's still evil and soulless. Those are not incompatible.
People tend to forget the second point here, but it does matter, a lot!
This is the peak of Buffy’s depression..
This episode never sat well with me. The whole scene with Warren controlling Katrina, and then wanting to have sex with her without her knowledge and against her will (we all know what it's called but i feel sick even thinking about the word). I hadn't that long got out of an abusive relationship, so watching this episode was kind of a hard watch.
Glad to have you back. I don't know if my notifications have been working well lately. Missed out on comments lately. Fortunately I'm ready for this one. Because here's where the season really kicks into heightened intensity!
Oh cool new graphic Alley!
1. You don't seem to realize that SPIKE IS AN EVIL DEMON. Just because he thinks he loves Buffy or protects her (in order to be close to her, not for altruistic reasons) doesn't change that. And Buffy is debasing herself by being with him; in her mind having sex with Spike is about one step removed from bestiality. So she feels she has to be "bad" to be doing these things, and Spike wants her to be "bad" with him. Remember, the Slayer's power is rooted in darkness. The slayer is also not like ordinary people. She is removed from them in both power and responsibility. This isn't coming from nowhere; this is the way it's always been.
2. Buffy knows this as well, which is why she wouldn't trust Spike to put her in handcuffs. She knows Spike is a monster. And Spike isn't trying to make her "feel worse". He's trying to get her to embrace the darkness with him and put herself above/removed from her friends. And sure, alienating Buffy from her friends makes it easier for Spike to be with her (remember, he's evil; he's in this for his own benefit). But the real point is that Spike is also the outcast, and he wants Buffy to be like him, so they can both be outcasts together, sharing the darkness, the power, and the mentality of "You're not like them; you're better. They couldn't understand." that comes with it.
3. Buffy's decision to go to the police makes total sense because she thinks she killed Katrina. At the very least, it's manslaughter. Given how Buffy reacted to Faith's "real" accidental killing of a human, this shouldn't be a surprise to you. It's not about justice; it's about owning up to her responsibility. And sure, psychologically you could say Buffy is also motivated by the fact that, in general, she's in a dark place where she thinks she's a bad person doing bad things. Someone who deserves to be punished. And Buffy has a long history of running away when things get too hard to deal with.
Lots of people point out that Spike and Dru were violent to each other but other than Becoming (and there were reasons for that!) when was that shown? Even Spikes "ill tie her up and torture her" seemed more like bravado than anything that actually would have happened
This is the really the moment since coming at the beginning of the season where Buffy both hits rock bottom and regains a heroic purpose. Rock bottom in that the full weight of how far she's let herself go come crashing down in her confessions to Tara. A heroic purpose in that now finally has a serious reason to bring down the trio.
Her digest at having allowed herself to be go intimate with Spike isn't so much that he's a vampire I think. It's more that she's been using him. Spike doesn't completely mind being used at first, but for the relationship to be seriously committed he has to see he as unrestrained as he is. It's the only kind of serious relationship he's ever known. We've seen before I did feel heartbreak when Dru left him. Than his conclusion about how to get her back was to tie her up and torture her! We might expect that from soulless vampires, but for Buffy to find herself (the chosen one to fight evil) willing return to such a toxic relationship...well let's say I'm glad your took the shipper glass off.
It's little wonder she echoed that "hurt the on you love" line we've resolving to go after Warren. At the same she's felling her worst, she's got a resolve at last to stop something who really is WORSE. The Slayer is meant to go after ordinary humans. Even if they have used magic. Yet at this point he's crossed the line from want to be comic book super villain to the kind of villain you'd be more likely to meet in real life. I was genuinely surprised they actually had Katrina call it rape. Since even after this episode there had been a sicking number of sci-fi works that suggested mind binding as just another romantic fantasy. Before Jessica Jones seemed to kick the notion to the curb.
Though I do get though that tendency to mistake a lack of no for a yes. Jonathan still shows signs of some moral standards despite initially going along with the plan. Even before Katrina spilled it out he's response to learning she's his ex-girlfriend was like "dude that's sick." Of course he's in over of his head and knows it given how well he knows Buffy. Where as Andrew is still trying to bury his similar feelings and risks being pulled further along Warren's plans. Suggestion a possible riff between the two down the line Things are escalating big time!
I've mellowed about this episode since I first saw it ( the acting is top notch and I get what they were going for ) but I remember disliking this episode when I first saw it. The murder of Katrina is just horribly unsettling and dark and tainted the episode for me. Even the death of Miss Calender doesn't match it. To be truly evil you need a soul.
"to be truly evil you need a soul."
You should watch the episode Consequences and then rewatch this one. So many parallels with Buffy/Faith/Spike. ❤
About the cuffs...Buffy and Spike were just talking about shmexy time. He was wondering if she trusted him enough to cuff her. She does not. But apparently he does lol. ❤
The roughest thing for me was Buffy feeling so utterly bad about herself that she beat Spike to a pulp... back in the day, we al said that seemed a little out of character. And SMG said she felt the balcony seen was out of character a bit. I think Marti went a little mad with this one. She originally wanted Spike even more damaged by Buffy. Like meat and bones showing.. Yikes!
The look on Johnathans face what Katrina said it was rape. That was when he saw it as going from kids thinking they are super villians from the comic books they love. Where they are still shown as fun, to it actually having an impact on people. The attempted rape to killing her, it has changed him, and hopefully it will be shown on screen, it already seemed that he didnt was to be with the other two anymore, but the sunk cost fallacy is known for a reason.
At his most vulnerable, Spike told Buffy, "You treat me like a man." He didn't feel that in life, and as a vampire, he could only revel as a powerful, destructive force. But feeling like a man was all he ever wanted. Buffy is taking the possibility of coming back wrong as an excuse to lose herself in something she wants, but something she would never do if she had any respect for herself. And she's not treating Spike like a man, she's treating him like a monster, and she wants to think of herself in similar terms to justify her behavior. She doesn't trust who she is anymore, and even if her feelings for Spike are real, she refuses to acknowledge them as anything but weakness. She doesn't treat Spike like a man after Smashed, she only treats him like a monster, and she vocalizes how ashamed she is, so that's all she gets from him, an evil thing.
Its always wild to remember how much stronger Buffy is than Spike, they like to go back and force but she completely out classes him its not even close.
"Why did I let Spike do those things to me" is the line that proves the writers elected to make Spike the fall guy for their writing decisions.
Buffy is the one who initiated this entire thing. Spike didn't do anything to Buffy until, at earliest, Doublemeat Palace, though this episode intro clearly shows she is actively, consensually, and happily engaging with Spike a number of times. So, at best "do those things to me" is the balcony at the bronze. But they act like Spike is dragging Buffy down. It's this point where the writers decide that Buffy must be innocent, despite being actively toxic and abusive.
So does it seem out of character? Yes. Because it literally is. The writers are scapegoating Spike. And we know this because he spent 147 days protecting Dawn and Sunnydale. So it isn't that Spike gets obsessed and loses that obsession. We know he can and does love. He can and does have a capacity for good. But that throws a wrench in their "you must have a soul to be good" myth - something particularly evident with Warren, who has a soul and is probably the worst villain we've seen.
And, thinking that Spike's argument is soully "I want you and you do a lot of good" misses him pointing out time manipulation and demons. Like, he has clear articulated reasons to be suspicious. He doesn't believe Buffy killed the woman. And Buffy is acting irrationally out of her self destructive motivation. It ignore that, as people point out, Buffy wailing on Spike is a parallel to Faith beating on Buffy when they switched bodies. Buffy fears she isn't whole, and projects that on Spike. She fears she isn't clean because of her relationship with and feelings for Spike.
Someone wrote once that Spike did not drag Buffy into the darkness, he merely followed her there. He is a mirror of her. She was already alone on the balcony. He didn't bring her there. Just as he didn't introduce violence into their dynamic this season, but instead met Buffy in violence - she has a long habit of getting physically violent with Spike, especially when he accurately speaks to her emotional state.
No untrue words are sung in Once More With Feeling. Spike *loves* Buffy. Not "loves" in quotes, but genuinely loves, because even when the character don't understand the words they sing, every word is objectively true.
Buffy might be the hero, but that doesn't make her a saint. Spike has sought a serious discussion about him and Buffy for a season now. At one level, she doesn't owe him that. At another, she keeps entering his life, confiding in him, relying on him in dangerous situations and, generally using him and so she does owe him honesty. Spike has sought that several times. And Spike is accepting. He is meeting her where she is - that is the one true effect of his soullessness. So she is reciprocating in this dark way, and he is conforming to and accepting that. Which is Toxic, but is also stemming directly from Buffy. And this episode entirely fails to engage with Buffy's culpability for her actions, and shifts that to Spike, while conflating Spike's legitimate statement of "you were being affected by magic, and need to slow down" with him trying to remove her culpability.
It is a whole mess and a congestive failure of acknowledging agency and culpability for Buffy.