They really need to change the radius to 12, it’s crazy IMBA that the creep from a hatchery can extend outside of the liberation zone. Zerg gets tumors for free and should be forced to use them. Also, libs need to be able to target buildings, also, as a time savings quality of life, the victory screen should be automatically shown if you spawn in as Terran.
hm maybe maybe 10 radius so that the lib can be matched by thor high impact anti air range. Also the Victory screen should only come up when spawning against a protoss or zerg. Otherwise these changes seem much needed.
@@skipp3252 very good points, in a TvT, I guess you would have to at least wait until the first marines are produced so the game can award the victory the player who can stutter-step better.
range was def way more OP than radius tho. Radius is kind of bogus when you think about it. I'm sure Terran would support switching back to +range (especially the old +3 range, that was insane). So sure, pretend radius is the OP one, better change it back hehe.
To put it into comparasion (its different unit and mechanic but still ...) disruptor orb size was increaed by 9%, Liberator siege size was increased by a fucking 56%
Disrupter ball does damage in the entire area. Lib just shoots one unit in the area. I don’t think this is really that much different for the liberator tbh.
The Liberator is easy to snipe now since it's so close. . The tempest , colossus and disruptor all got buffed and the immortal is cheaper. The only thing we'll need to see is if it the smart servos has any effect on how quick you can deploy them.
@@jjcardillo "The Liberator is easy to snipe now since it's so close" It's .75 units closer now. Not even a single whole number range decrease. It's not "so close" lol. Terran gaslighting. The tempest isn't any stronger, and it still sucks at micro, even after the attack point decrease. And in situations when micro doesn't matter, it's straight nerfed due to the range decrease (which is 1 unit, still more than the lib got reduced. The colossus shield/hp change is ONLY a buff against EMP. It's a nerf against everything else because (and this might come as a surprise to a Terran) Protoss can't regenerate HP, only shields. More shield = better longevity on the unit. The disruptor got nerfed. It's a unit that relies on its hyper damage potential. Now that damage has been reduced to the point that the units it's supposed to counter don't have to fear it NEARLY as much. The immortal got nerfed hard. 25 mineral decrease? lol, what a joke of a "buff" to compensate for 10% attack speed reduction. Just another typical Terran gaslighting post to try and hide the fact that the most powerful race just got gigabuffed while the weakest race just got giganerfed.
@alesholman801 that's an unfair comparison. you are comparing a radius increase vs an area increase. area to area, the disruptor orb size is increased by 19% versus the liberator area size increase of 56% (pi x radius squared). Sure it's still not close, but the disruptor is aoe while liberator is single target so increasing the area by a large margin doesn't increase it's fire rate; just increases its opportunity to fire.
„Defensive / Turtle and passive playstyle is bad”, that’s official reason, but that doesn’t make sense to hate it. Just give more early aggression options instead of nerfing defensive and pushing stupid solutions.
@@bananian Or put hydras on tier 1 like in brood war. I don't give a fuck if that would "break balance" because these are the same people that allow Terran to exist. Forcing the Queen to be a "do-everything" unit because of the refusal to allow other units to be as effective is poisoning the zerg balance discussion
eGGz did not follow the council recommendations : - to get rid of Liberators, you have to make Hydras, make infestors, put the shroud on the Hydras and dash under the Liberator. If Zerg don't use the new tools of course Liberators seem OP. So please, rush to Hive, micro a lot, and you'll see you won't have to worry about Liberators anymore. Thank God, they thought about everything.....
Hydra should be tier 1 unit. Period. Zerg shouldn't have to be the only race that has to deal with constant air harass in early game with no army units that shoot up.
the changes SC2 made to the Hydralisk are probably one of the most disastrous changes made to existing units in SC2 and is probably a key factor in most of the least-fun eras SC2 had in vZ matchups.
like, thinking about it more, without SC1 Hydras Zerg didnt historically have: 1. no good, strong army unit that can go into the late-game like every other race has. 2. no cheap, spammable unit other than Lings (the swarmy race cant even swarm??) 3. no way to put constant pressure on the opponent's front door all game long 4. no real way to consistently survive past the early game (in early WOL) 5. no real way to do damage with army units in fights past getting huge connections with Banelings or Fungals 6. no good, strong anti-air options. and this resulted in all of the worst changes Zerg had in SC2 history. including some of the most notorious balance changes in all of SC2, the og Queen buffs that happened in early-mid WOL. the addition of Swarm Hosts. Infested Terran being relied on by Infestors. Fungal Growth changes. the addition of the Swarm Host and Parasitic Bomb on the Viper. the over-reliance Zerg has had in almost all of SC2's history on Brood Lords.
Even with that, hydras wouldn't counter libs. They didn't before and they wouldn't now. Give the corruptor 1 more acceleration and reduce the cost by about 25/25. To make the hydra viable in current Starcraft, it needs either the stim from HOTS campaign or like 10-20 more hp.
Energy Overcharge should either cost 25 and have a much larger range, or also restore all shields and repair all hull damage. Without a tweak like that or simply keeping Battery Overcharge, Toss is totally screwed.
What a game! I felt so happy watching eGGz respond beautifully to liberators being sieged at every corner of his base, not panicking, and coming back to take the win. Amazing play!
@@oOOoOphidian tbh if they want to nerf lib camping maybe allow maybe 3 libzones max stacked and if there are more it doesnt do damage but that is just pure early/mid game hell for zerg
This liberator is IMBA. Diamond players can just mass liberators like this and Diamond zergs won't have the skill to comeback like eGGz did here. Remove the increased siege and un-siege speed so spores can still be useful
Build exactly 2 void rays. Liberators are pathetic anti air, and seige tanks are, well, seige tanks. Marines exist, but i doubt diamond players understand how to build 3 units with different letters simultaneously
Libs stack vertically, up or down, numbers are a quality of their own. Terran never F2 the whole bunch against the corruptors, they deal with muta handily, but why wonder when you can get BC and yamato them? I got massacred by BC\Lib once, shoulda gone mass viper\corruptor lol. But they didn't do much against capital then. ☠️
@@marcomarin1196 Ravagers are a decent counter to sieged Liberators, although technically they shoot down, not up, and I was interested to see how that matchup looked with the girth package, but ssdly, not eggz. 😢
It's FINE to give Terran Air a screen-sized buff BECAUSE, to balance it for the other races, Zergs ONLY anti air unit for the first half of the game... had it's price increased by almost 20%... Oh wait
Turbo buffed? Plus Terran can go fusion core very quickly anyways On top of that the seige time buff makes the spore pointless unless you make an obscene amount
Honestly, for the circle, drop it from 6.25 to 6 or 5.75 and it's fine. Ditch the smart servos so they don't siege/unsiege faster. When it comes to Zerg though, they need a buff in the air. Mutas get hard countered by libs and are the most accessible Zerg air option. You can't get enough vipers to deal with the new libs and you would need to get the only 2 zerg units that can shoot up to support them. Corruptors are the only real option against libs because hydras, queens, and mutas are all countered by them, but corruptors are also useless against ground armies that don't use libs, so a mid-game lib investment can trade well into zerg, force the zerg to build corruptors, then just be ditched, leaving the zerg with wasted supply that they either have to suicide trying to kill a building or turn into broodlords which get countered by 3 terran units (ghosts, thors, vikings). The same kinda thing happens with protoss where zerg only has 1 option to deal with void rays or carriers. The only difference is protoss doesn't have a good way to kill corruptors outside psistorm (stalkers are pretty slow and void rays don't give great value) and corruptors can kill colossi. Zerg needs another unit on the ground that can shoot up that's better than a hydra.
Kind of mind blowing there going to Nerf the Queen when its a must have unit not only for lava and creep but the fact its the only real AA unit Zerg have early game.
Hatchery buff makes it mostly neutral; the nerf really only comes into play when you're on 2-3 bases and building 10+ queens, which is exactly what they wanted to discourage.
@@user-nh2bf4to7g It hurts early game when you need the first few Queens the most. It might seem like a tiny little nerf but it will slow the Zerg down and likely be abused.
Zerg needs Hydralisks to be weaker but much cheaper and capable of being made sooner so they can use them much like stalkers as an early game anti air option.
I really like the idea the spores are not detected by libs xD is the only strange counter so they need to lower spores price and lower build time to counter the libs. If blizz wants to not focus all the early zerg defense only in queens is a good idea to buff the spore response remeber that -100hp is a LOT of hp.
If you have'nt seen a side by side comparison of the liberation zone, existing libs get +2 with the upgrade, but the radius increase on the new patch is basically still +1.5 range AND also a bonkers huge area. As a terran player I'd love to try it out but I think this might be a silly tweak. I'd keep the basic +2 range upgrade and try out smart servos also speeding up the lib seige/unseige time and roll with that.
The range upgrade will never come back. They're addressing a map making issue by getting rid of it, and trying to do something cool and interesting in its place. They just missed the mark a bit.
@@JackstrSC2 I don't do a lot of lib harass as part of my normal builds (plat league so don't overweigh my opinoin here) but I do think maps having too much dead space isn't really a design decision, its just bad design. Cliffs that air can harass from and land can't move between freely are good, but places air can just straight up hide and be untouchable... barf.
@@Cowclops "Bad design" is also a design decision, but I am not sure I agree with it being "bad design". People really want to remove all texture from maps, like god forbid you have to adjust your build to get an anti air flying unit on a map if you want to get rid of a flyer.
I dont know , i might of a different idea about this: I would keep the fast resiege and range nerf while removing the area buf. I think the new area might make it much harder for stalkers to flank liberators , removing the fun micro game flanking /resieging.
9:34 look at the spore burrow, look at the liberators unsiege Damn Also astraea started shields in 11:20, and still did so well, this game was just pure disrespect
I wonder if they should add an Upgrade, late game upgrade that gives the Lib siege attack a slight AOE or "Splash" damage? Or an upgrade that increases the Attack speed of the siege form, at the cost of damage. Only other idea I can think of for liberators, is the change the Siege zone of the Liberators from a full circle, to a narrow cone, but have the range increased.... but maybe make the damage scale with the distance from the liberator, so it has a decent range at it's max, but it hits much weaker at that range... idk.
Interesting thing about the hatch change is that you should be getting your first queen almost a second earlier, which maybe if you mess with a 15 hatch could let you get the queens out before the reaper arrives. That said seems like a net detriment
"Imagine is an AOE spell got a 50% radius increase" as a response to "a single target seige unit got a 23% radius increase on it's field of fire" is quite funny. Esspecially as liberators used to be able to seige mineral lines in area's non air units couldn't hit at all, and that should now be completely removed, unless a map designer really fucks up.
@@Santisima_Trinidad It shoots so fast and does so much damage that it's effectively casting snipe on whatever it wants to, with no energy requirement. If you're gonna gaslight at least don't be so transparent about it. Yeeesh.
@@ericm5315 gaslight where? Did i say jt didn't do single target damage? No, i said it didn't do AoE, so the comparison with AoE spells isnt valid. Did i say its DPS was anyway weak? No, not at all. You are just lieing.
@@Santisima_Trinidad it's a 56% area increase as advertized. one liberator is now able to engulf an entire mineral line no questions asked. Plus the radius increase compensates for the lost range to the point that it feels like that never changed.
The first half of this game perfectly showcased the exact scenario in which libs are nerfed. Killed queens and can't end the game because spores? Old libs could siege outside spore range in dead space and deny all mining. Despite how large the circle looks, you get exactly zero benefit having 30 targets in range instead of 10 targets in range, it's only going to shoot one shot each time anyway. The AOE increase matters the most when you're trying to cover a larger area with very few liberators against things that can't shoot up, usually when you leave a few libs to defend against harrass. Lurker harrass, zealot harrass, hellion run bys, these are the things the new libs are better against. May be an unintended turtling buff lol, we'll wait and see. In army vs army the old range is stronger when you don't get flanked, as people tend to try to snipe libs and dart back out of range immediately, but when you do get flanked, new libs are much stronger, as they can start shoot even directly under themselves. We'll have to wait and see if this turns out to be an buff or a nerf.
I think this is a nerf to high level Terran but buff to low level Terran, which seems to be how most of the patch notes are - buffs/nerfs to high level that may have the opposite effect in low level. You make a good point about how the radius increase is a big help defensively - I didn't think about that at all. I wonder if they will reduce radius but increase range again because of that?
By the time terran has the upgrade zerg should be able to get air units to hard counter if terran goes mass lib, I like that zerg cant just build queens to kill air units.
The issue is the overlap, primarily. When Liberators start covering one another it scales very quickly into an unfair scenario and with THAT much overlap it's an issue.
It's just incredible how much the radius increase is being overblown as being OP. Compared to a range increase of 2, the radius is much MUCH easier to deal with. I don't see the problem with this change and I'm a Z player. Actually, this matchup demonstrates the radius increase was totally useless and rather detrimental to Astrea. eGGz was already long dead before the liberators came into play, but the focus on liberators by Astrea allowed eGGz to come back in the game while being over 50pop behind. It's laughingly stupid to insist the change is IMBA. Killing stuff while making your liberator impossible to be hit by anything but air units, that's IMBA. Remove range, increase radius = good change.
That problem was much better addressed with a map update. And this is a buff. Other than abusing the poorly designed dead space the range on the libs did nothing that they don't do now and the increase in the area where they shoot is significant in large engagements. This game was two players fooling around with the new mechanics, the result is not significant. The problem people have is not that it's a major buff. It's not. It's that it is a buff and this race certainly wasn't in need of one.
the biggest problem is that you can cover way too much space like this, its a big buff to the ability for harassment and zoning and makes counterplay trickier because you cant easily walk around the lib zone anymore i think reverting the lib area to what it was previously and just lowering the range of ballistic libs by 1 is the better nerf if we need one
It seems to be just Terran players for the most part, the members of the council often change and all argue with each other over what each race gets, its extremely biased and the patches have nothing to do with balance and entirely to do with much they scream at each other. For source you can listen to ShowTime talking about it on the Dns/Shdowtime patch video that was released yesterday.
there were a lot of good bufs to zerG. Ultras dont get fucked as hard by unit collision. Microbial shroud now sticks to your units which is something weve wanted for years because all it used to do was tell the enemy exACTLYwhere to cast their splash damage. Hydras are weird because now we have three upgrades to invest in. So early game nerf late game buff for them due to requiring even more gas investment? Hydras really ought to be tier one in my opinion. Their upgrades should be tier two after unlocking the lair. Although I think atleast one of the three upgrades should be purchasable on hatch tech. Im thinking either +1 range or the dash ability since their defensive upgrades. And speed can be locked behind lair tech like it is for roaches. Better spine crawler AND spores have more damage but are easier to one shot.
@@SoulCrapper Feel like the buffs to Zerg don't outweigh the nerfs.Hydras bae movement was nerfed in the same buff and tbh I think that's probably just as impactful.. plus they're still flimsy as anything and i don't see how they're the reliable zerg antiair option they're being sold as. A couple siege tanks or colossus still completely rinse them so it doesn't solve zergs anti-air late game problems. the 1000th queen nerf is also ridiculous. Its like they look at units in a vacuum ignoring the rest of the race. Yes Queens are crazy strong if you ignore that they're essentially the only defence zerg has, and literally the only anit-air unit early game. They're also the only unit that allows zerg to manage their lava to actually expand and push drones early... which they NEED to do in any non-cheese game given that the zerg individual units all trade extremely inefficiently and in TvZ in particular, mule drops lead to this being twice as relevant to get ahead in drones early on if you want any chance at surviving through the mid and late game. As zerg, you don't get wall-offs of siege tanks or overcharges, shield generators and their static defence is just not worth bothering with in higher levels of play as the only defence option given that there is no wall offs and only deal with ground or air separately. The opponent can just walk to your other base instead and they are too slow to setup before taking losses - spores are a necessary supplementary building for anti-air just because of how bad zergs anti-air is but they're not solid enough to be THE anti-air solution.
I don't get why they have to do these high risk changes. This seems like the Cyclone change that was not totally unnecessary but also harmed toss openings. Also I don't like that a siege units weaknesses get removed. Faster sieger and bigger circle are insane
Apparently they found the buff room to add smart servos to the liberator but the couldn't find room to bugfix it or give it the small QoL microability change all Zerg units received in a previous patch.
The balance council is wild. All the terran "nerfs" had the aura of someone during a job interview saying "my biggest weakeness is that I work too hard." Oh well, at least it will only take them 6 months to do another patch. Where they will undoubtedly buff Terran again.
I feel like if astrea threw in a couple ravens, then he could have used anti armor missiles and challenged the corruptors with his massive liberator count.
the update might work, but 5 corruptors should be able to two shot a lib... something not really dsicussed is Libs armor class could change when its in different trasnformations, this would create it to be weaker but easier ot dispatch when in siege mode, but then gain more armor when simpyl flying, so a more of areward punish mechanic for not adept microing... 6.25 range.. I thought 6.0 would be good.. but.. did they take the upgade way fro range? cool update for lib and units that can trasnform back and forth like vikings be cool to have an armor class change making them effective depending on their mode...
Liberator should have speed upgrade. Micro should be rewarded and all the time delays on Terran units are a reason they have to turtle late game. Get caught out without your units sieged and you die.
This is a very visually impressive change, but you soon realise "wait, this is just what the old liberator did, but now you can actually shoot back at it", and then 3 liberators kill a single queen before they all die in a straight engagement (highest anti ground DPS in the game BTW) Maybe it'll be brought down a bit, to 6.5 radius, but just like all things, it's not about the girth, it's about how you use it.
"3 liberators kill a single queen in a straight up engagement whaaaa" has got to be the most inteIIectuaIy dishonest thing ive read all day. It was 6 queens all dumping all their energy on transfuse vs 3 unupgraded libs. T pIayers continue to show a lack of criticaI thinking abiIity, as per usuaI
"lts not actuaIIy good, 3 liberators kill a single queen in a straight up engagement 😭" has got to be the most inteIIectuaIy dishonest thing lve read all day. It was 6 queens all dumping all their energy on transfuse, all in range and focus firing, vs 3 unupgraded libs. T continues to show a lack of criticaI thinking abiIity, unlucky
"lts not actuaIIy good, 3 liberators kill a single queen in a straight up engagement 😭" is insane dishonest. It was 6 queens all dumping all their energy on transfuse, all in range and focus firing, vs 3 unupgraded libs. Avg T, no criticaI thinkin skiIIs.
Hay Pig would love you to react to the Dns/ShowTime video, they call out the player council for its corruption and abuse. Even the dudes on the council are tearing each other apart now.
@@PiGstarcraft Thank you, I think getting the change that is badly needed to keep SC2 alive will be very hard, really only ESL has the weight to pressure Blizzard into removing this dysfunctional council but yourself, Lowko and Winter all have a voice in our community and a part to play in helping this game maintain its viewers and players. Don't underestimate yourself Pig. If not removed there absolutely needs to be a full disclosure on who is currently in the balance council at any given time, from the communities view it looks like fraud and corruption are taking place and have been since its start, I'm honestly amazed that Hero and several other top Protoss players have not tried to sue them yet. The difference in win rates between Blizzard official patchs and balance council patches is very extreme. The balance council is effectively robbing Protoss players of real life income. I have encouraged Hero to Sue ESL for agreeing to implement changes that will clearly cost him money and are being created by his opponents, before the balance council took over Hero was considered the best player in the world and had been the highest earning player for the previous 6 months, Hero has a very good case that would stand up in any court. The only reason he has not pressed forward already with this is he feels he would get blacklisted by future tournaments after. Many Protoss pro players have simply chosen to stop playing the game instead of creating a fuss. Hero refused to take part in the balance council purely because he felt pro players should take no part in it, he felt it was always going to descend into the corrupt cesspit it so clearly has. HeroMarine is the same, hes stated several times how corrupt the council is and wants no part in it because of that.
The Liberator radius is stupid. I say just remove the Liberator range upgrade altogether. The Ghost also needs to change. Maybe double the snipe channeling time, reduce snipe damage to 100 or less from 170 and maybe increase EMP energy cost to 125 energy or higher so one Ghost can only cast 1 EMP at a time. Something, anything will do but the Ghost has to change. It's too strong.
The new freedom zone is so silly. If I had to choose between the two buffs to keep, I would keep the Smart Servos affecting Liberators buff. I have always thought that Libs and Tanks SHOULD benefit from that ability, since they transform between modes just like the Thors, Hellions, and Vikings. If Libs need a unique upgrade, change Advanced Ballistics to make it so the Libs pierce armor somehow; maybe they ignore 1 level of armor upgrades, and if you have 0 they hit you as though you were -1. It fits with the name and doesn't sound broken. Or replace it entirely with a new upgrade that lets them shoot buildings. They need to liberate the space for a new Command Center.
Siege units (libs and tanks) shouldnt seige/unseige fast, its the whole point of a seige unit. Its an entirely different class of units as mechanical transforming units.
@@momoaa It's not entirely different though, they are transforming to another mode that has a different purpose than the mode they started in, it's the same thing. Thors in High impact mode are basically anti-air siege units but they still benefit from Servos. I understand that from a game balance standpoint it is potentially problematic, but it just makes logical sense for the transforming siege units to make use of the upgraded transformation servos.
@@matthewpelletier6900 Thors don't get locked in place when they change mode. I also wouldn't really class shooting at air units as "sieging" lol. The reason that neither liberators nor siege tanks should benefit from servos is because the fundamental design of these two units is that they have the downside of decreased mobility to make up for their good range and extremely high damage. When you cut back on that downside, you remove the flavour and fantasy of the unit, as well as making it harder to balance. That's why adaptive talons has been repeatedly nerfed for lurkers and tankivacs were removed.
@Junebug89 their mobility still goes down to 0 in siege mode. Buying an upgrade to make them go in and out of siege mode a little faster doesn't change their identity, it just makes them better at their identity.
@@matthewpelletier6900 "it just makes them better at their identity" jeez man you really dont understand game design. The point of the identity of a unit is to have strengths and weaknesses. Lowering the weaknesses doesnt "make them better at their identity", it just makes them fundamentally overpowered because they are then getting the strength without the weakness.
They wanted less defensive play. Its 1v1. Defense is necessary. If they're going for less defensive play, they might have to reconsider changing the new liberator.
i always thought liberators are dumb for having such a small area for being an air siege tank. Broodlords and lurkers have siege tank range and are mobile. why must liberators need to siege up and have a small radius of are? they should fix liberators to simply be like a lurker/siege tank where the AOE is the entire land area around it.
The circles look huge, but I think in lower leagues that makes T more stronger than in GM and above. If you want to be T stronger v P on lower leagues, this seems fine. We will have to see if zerg is too weak on this levels.
Pig try and fight to change this horrible patch 😢 if they will make the queens more expensive ( A Zerg's CORE unit) at least give them increased range or something. Also the Hydra "dash move" it's just so useless. Maybe if it was increased attack speed but it was an ability, that might be good???
i think regardless of the result of this game, Astrea still made the point. there is absolutely 0 reason why Astrea should have had this much success in the game by making (and losing) 30+ Liberators in the first like 15 minutes of the game.
Zerg was so far behind after losing so many lings on 50 something workers I'm unsure this shows much about how strong Libs are. I think eGGz would have died to pretty much anything after losing 30 lings that early on. I think the Libs lost him the game pretty much. If he made less Libs & used them each more efficiently opposed to sometimes have 3 siege one base he had this in the bag.
Hmm, the balance council buffed libs, but they alsp buffed spores. What does this mean for the game? Will Terrans still have to work for wins? Literally 1984.
This looks to me like the worst "balance" patch in recent times. I feel the game as it stands today is almost there, so the changes should be small. Large changes are guaranteed to settle into new unbalanced metas
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They really need to change the radius to 12, it’s crazy IMBA that the creep from a hatchery can extend outside of the liberation zone. Zerg gets tumors for free and should be forced to use them. Also, libs need to be able to target buildings, also, as a time savings quality of life, the victory screen should be automatically shown if you spawn in as Terran.
LOL
hm maybe maybe 10 radius so that the lib can be matched by thor high impact anti air range. Also the Victory screen should only come up when spawning against a protoss or zerg. Otherwise these changes seem much needed.
@@skipp3252 very good points, in a TvT, I guess you would have to at least wait until the first marines are produced so the game can award the victory the player who can stutter-step better.
bullshit
range was def way more OP than radius tho. Radius is kind of bogus when you think about it. I'm sure Terran would support switching back to +range (especially the old +3 range, that was insane). So sure, pretend radius is the OP one, better change it back hehe.
"Turtle style is bad for the game"
Lets buff a siegue unit and also a lot of static defense for terran
Everyone crying would claim that if the seige tank lost 4 range but seiged 25% would be a buff.
@@williambrinkmeier1772 yeah because the liberator definitely lost a lot of range /s
@@MANTAZA66 .75 range matters a lot if you understand the interaction between them and disruptors
As the map maker for ultra love, thank you for the kind words! I spent a lot of time on the decoration on this map
Nice! Good work it looks fantastic.
You are the real GOAT
The best new map, great work 👏👏👏
Really great map!
looks amazing
To put it into comparasion (its different unit and mechanic but still ...) disruptor orb size was increaed by 9%, Liberator siege size was increased by a fucking 56%
Disrupter ball does damage in the entire area. Lib just shoots one unit in the area. I don’t think this is really that much different for the liberator tbh.
The Liberator is easy to snipe now since it's so close. . The tempest , colossus and disruptor all got buffed and the immortal is cheaper. The only thing we'll need to see is if it the smart servos has any effect on how quick you can deploy them.
@@jjcardillo "The Liberator is easy to snipe now since it's so close" It's .75 units closer now. Not even a single whole number range decrease. It's not "so close" lol. Terran gaslighting.
The tempest isn't any stronger, and it still sucks at micro, even after the attack point decrease. And in situations when micro doesn't matter, it's straight nerfed due to the range decrease (which is 1 unit, still more than the lib got reduced.
The colossus shield/hp change is ONLY a buff against EMP. It's a nerf against everything else because (and this might come as a surprise to a Terran) Protoss can't regenerate HP, only shields. More shield = better longevity on the unit.
The disruptor got nerfed. It's a unit that relies on its hyper damage potential. Now that damage has been reduced to the point that the units it's supposed to counter don't have to fear it NEARLY as much.
The immortal got nerfed hard. 25 mineral decrease? lol, what a joke of a "buff" to compensate for 10% attack speed reduction.
Just another typical Terran gaslighting post to try and hide the fact that the most powerful race just got gigabuffed while the weakest race just got giganerfed.
@alesholman801 that's an unfair comparison. you are comparing a radius increase vs an area increase. area to area, the disruptor orb size is increased by 19% versus the liberator area size increase of 56% (pi x radius squared). Sure it's still not close, but the disruptor is aoe while liberator is single target so increasing the area by a large margin doesn't increase it's fire rate; just increases its opportunity to fire.
34%
what the hell
when Harstem said freakishly large I thought it couldn't be that bad
but that is FREAKISHLY large
I think Harstem would have said it's "freakishly yuuuuge" :D
Liberator unsiege time should be quicker. That poor Liberator almost got hit at 9:45 by the fast and furious spore crawler
As a terran player, that liberator circle is way too big.
Can revert with the old radius but increase the siege to 1 sec
Changeling detected
OP is a terran player but Zerg main.
Look like 20% of screen real estate, dayum op
It's not about your lib range, it's about GIRTH
They should make it cover entire map. Poor Terrans might still lose sometimes and we cannot have that.
So zerg has no choice but to go spore crawlers and corruptors every game. What's wrong with having queens for early defense??
„Defensive / Turtle and passive playstyle is bad”, that’s official reason, but that doesn’t make sense to hate it. Just give more early aggression options instead of nerfing defensive and pushing stupid solutions.
@@bananian people complaining about queens without realising Zerg have no other early anti air options lol
@@marcomarin1196
Maybe they should make zerglings hit air. 😅
@@bananian Or put hydras on tier 1 like in brood war. I don't give a fuck if that would "break balance" because these are the same people that allow Terran to exist. Forcing the Queen to be a "do-everything" unit because of the refusal to allow other units to be as effective is poisoning the zerg balance discussion
@@bananian Haha I that would be funny but it would be super IMBA 😅
eGGz did not follow the council recommendations :
- to get rid of Liberators, you have to make Hydras, make infestors, put the shroud on the Hydras and dash under the Liberator.
If Zerg don't use the new tools of course Liberators seem OP.
So please, rush to Hive, micro a lot, and you'll see you won't have to worry about Liberators anymore.
Thank God, they thought about everything.....
Pew pew pew pew pew pew pew gg
"This patch was brought to you by Big Terran™ 😎"
Hydra should be tier 1 unit. Period. Zerg shouldn't have to be the only race that has to deal with constant air harass in early game with no army units that shoot up.
Yes. Leave the upgrades at Lair tech, make the Hydra Den Tier 1 and remove the queen air attack
Agreed, Hydra should fill the same role as the Stalker early game, that of a ranged defensive unit that scales poorly into mid and late game.
the changes SC2 made to the Hydralisk are probably one of the most disastrous changes made to existing units in SC2 and is probably a key factor in most of the least-fun eras SC2 had in vZ matchups.
like, thinking about it more, without SC1 Hydras Zerg didnt historically have:
1. no good, strong army unit that can go into the late-game like every other race has.
2. no cheap, spammable unit other than Lings (the swarmy race cant even swarm??)
3. no way to put constant pressure on the opponent's front door all game long
4. no real way to consistently survive past the early game (in early WOL)
5. no real way to do damage with army units in fights past getting huge connections with Banelings or Fungals
6. no good, strong anti-air options.
and this resulted in all of the worst changes Zerg had in SC2 history. including some of the most notorious balance changes in all of SC2, the og Queen buffs that happened in early-mid WOL. the addition of Swarm Hosts. Infested Terran being relied on by Infestors. Fungal Growth changes. the addition of the Swarm Host and Parasitic Bomb on the Viper. the over-reliance Zerg has had in almost all of SC2's history on Brood Lords.
Even with that, hydras wouldn't counter libs. They didn't before and they wouldn't now. Give the corruptor 1 more acceleration and reduce the cost by about 25/25. To make the hydra viable in current Starcraft, it needs either the stim from HOTS campaign or like 10-20 more hp.
Energy Overcharge should either cost 25 and have a much larger range, or also restore all shields and repair all hull damage.
Without a tweak like that or simply keeping Battery Overcharge, Toss is totally screwed.
What a game! I felt so happy watching eGGz respond beautifully to liberators being sieged at every corner of his base, not panicking, and coming back to take the win. Amazing play!
It might have girth but it can't reach as deep anymore, thankfully it's in and out really fast too
who approved this change tho? liberator was already strong asf
It's a nerf to some of its camping strength and harass in late game but maybe the compensation was too high
@@oOOoOphidian tbh if they want to nerf lib camping maybe allow maybe 3 libzones max stacked and if there are more it doesnt do damage but that is just pure early/mid game hell for zerg
Its a nerf. So now not as strong
@@vexienroeit's really not a nerf 😅
@@Sellocait really is. It makes it so that libs can’t harass mineral lines from a distance that requires air units to counter (specifically in TVP)
This liberator is IMBA. Diamond players can just mass liberators like this and Diamond zergs won't have the skill to comeback like eGGz did here. Remove the increased siege and un-siege speed so spores can still be useful
Add Protoss to that paragraph and you’re still completely right. Liberator harassment into lib siege tank attack is legit busted in these elo ranges.
Build exactly 2 void rays. Liberators are pathetic anti air, and seige tanks are, well, seige tanks. Marines exist, but i doubt diamond players understand how to build 3 units with different letters simultaneously
Libs stack vertically, up or down, numbers are a quality of their own.
Terran never F2 the whole bunch against the corruptors, they deal with muta handily, but why wonder when you can get BC and yamato them?
I got massacred by BC\Lib once, shoulda gone mass viper\corruptor lol.
But they didn't do much against capital then. ☠️
@@Santisima_Trinidad I was talking about Zerg. But lib anti is good when there’s a lot of them the splash damage is strong
@@marcomarin1196 Ravagers are a decent counter to sieged Liberators, although technically they shoot down, not up, and I was interested to see how that matchup looked with the girth package, but ssdly, not eggz. 😢
Would be interesting if the lib range started like it used to be and expanded to be that big over say, 30 or 40 seconds.
That is a good idea but it will make it even more of a defensive siege unit, and this patch was meant to reduce defensive play.
Gamer: Whats that for a strange graphic animation?
a black hole?
graphic designer: an archon toilet
It's FINE to give Terran Air a screen-sized buff BECAUSE, to balance it for the other races, Zergs ONLY anti air unit for the first half of the game... had it's price increased by almost 20%...
Oh wait
Mfs pretending to ignore this is a FUSION CORE upgrade, or that they just turbobuffed spores
Turbo buffed?
Plus Terran can go fusion core very quickly anyways
On top of that the seige time buff makes the spore pointless unless you make an obscene amount
@@OldSpaghettifactory89fusion core isn't some ridiculous late game tech bud
@@mememachine-386It is tho, no terran goes fusion core before 7 minutes...
@@OldSpaghettifactory89 this clown pretending that over all the buff and nerfz... ghost still exist... untouched.
You better start practicing TvZ, cause there ain't gonna be any toss players soon 😂
GM ladders usually huge amount of protoss, if you watch any gm streamers majority of the games are vs protoss, no?
Honestly, for the circle, drop it from 6.25 to 6 or 5.75 and it's fine. Ditch the smart servos so they don't siege/unsiege faster. When it comes to Zerg though, they need a buff in the air. Mutas get hard countered by libs and are the most accessible Zerg air option. You can't get enough vipers to deal with the new libs and you would need to get the only 2 zerg units that can shoot up to support them. Corruptors are the only real option against libs because hydras, queens, and mutas are all countered by them, but corruptors are also useless against ground armies that don't use libs, so a mid-game lib investment can trade well into zerg, force the zerg to build corruptors, then just be ditched, leaving the zerg with wasted supply that they either have to suicide trying to kill a building or turn into broodlords which get countered by 3 terran units (ghosts, thors, vikings). The same kinda thing happens with protoss where zerg only has 1 option to deal with void rays or carriers. The only difference is protoss doesn't have a good way to kill corruptors outside psistorm (stalkers are pretty slow and void rays don't give great value) and corruptors can kill colossi. Zerg needs another unit on the ground that can shoot up that's better than a hydra.
Kind of mind blowing there going to Nerf the Queen when its a must have unit not only for lava and creep but the fact its the only real AA unit Zerg have early game.
Hatchery buff makes it mostly neutral; the nerf really only comes into play when you're on 2-3 bases and building 10+ queens, which is exactly what they wanted to discourage.
@@user-nh2bf4to7g Whats wrong with building 10 queens ?????? Terran builds hundreds of marines so maybe we shoud nerf those too
@@user-nh2bf4to7g It hurts early game when you need the first few Queens the most. It might seem like a tiny little nerf but it will slow the Zerg down and likely be abused.
@@psychotropnilachtan8869 The Terran Buffing Council actually nerf a Terran unit without overbuffing it in other aspects? Never going to happen.
Zerg needs Hydralisks to be weaker but much cheaper and capable of being made sooner so they can use them much like stalkers as an early game anti air option.
Viking liberator will be tough for protoss.
Plus, Hydras in the campaign have a completely different Frenzy, which is an attack speed booster
I really like the idea the spores are not detected by libs xD is the only strange counter so they need to lower spores price and lower build time to counter the libs. If blizz wants to not focus all the early zerg defense only in queens is a good idea to buff the spore response remeber that -100hp is a LOT of hp.
If you have'nt seen a side by side comparison of the liberation zone, existing libs get +2 with the upgrade, but the radius increase on the new patch is basically still +1.5 range AND also a bonkers huge area.
As a terran player I'd love to try it out but I think this might be a silly tweak. I'd keep the basic +2 range upgrade and try out smart servos also speeding up the lib seige/unseige time and roll with that.
The range upgrade will never come back. They're addressing a map making issue by getting rid of it, and trying to do something cool and interesting in its place. They just missed the mark a bit.
@@JackstrSC2 I don't do a lot of lib harass as part of my normal builds (plat league so don't overweigh my opinoin here) but I do think maps having too much dead space isn't really a design decision, its just bad design. Cliffs that air can harass from and land can't move between freely are good, but places air can just straight up hide and be untouchable... barf.
@@Cowclops "Bad design" is also a design decision, but I am not sure I agree with it being "bad design". People really want to remove all texture from maps, like god forbid you have to adjust your build to get an anti air flying unit on a map if you want to get rid of a flyer.
I dont know , i might of a different idea about this: I would keep the fast resiege and range nerf while removing the area buf. I think the new area might make it much harder for stalkers to flank liberators , removing the fun micro game flanking /resieging.
So kill the unit instead? Doesnt seem that helpful; if I have to choose between PTR and your choice, im taking PTR.
9:34 look at the spore burrow, look at the liberators unsiege
Damn
Also astraea started shields in 11:20, and still did so well, this game was just pure disrespect
new meta - zerg needs 3+ spores per base. great job stopping defensive play balance council
@@ilikebananasFPV"thanks for stopping defensive play for Zerg and protoss"** fixed that for you
They really need to remove like a minute off the spires production time and this would honestly be fine.
I wonder if they should add an Upgrade, late game upgrade that gives the Lib siege attack a slight AOE or "Splash" damage? Or an upgrade that increases the Attack speed of the siege form, at the cost of damage.
Only other idea I can think of for liberators, is the change the Siege zone of the Liberators from a full circle, to a narrow cone, but have the range increased.... but maybe make the damage scale with the distance from the liberator, so it has a decent range at it's max, but it hits much weaker at that range... idk.
Interesting thing about the hatch change is that you should be getting your first queen almost a second earlier, which maybe if you mess with a 15 hatch could let you get the queens out before the reaper arrives. That said seems like a net detriment
Circle is wider than your mother🎉
Queens being more expensive is a buff to air-unit rushes in general anyways, at lower ranks I can't imagine his not being broken in TvZ.
4:01 Does that mean there‘s going to be new ladder maps for the next season?
Lmao imagine if storm or fungal got 50% radius increase, but minus 1 range. .
"Imagine is an AOE spell got a 50% radius increase" as a response to "a single target seige unit got a 23% radius increase on it's field of fire" is quite funny. Esspecially as liberators used to be able to seige mineral lines in area's non air units couldn't hit at all, and that should now be completely removed, unless a map designer really fucks up.
@@Santisima_Trinidad It shoots so fast and does so much damage that it's effectively casting snipe on whatever it wants to, with no energy requirement. If you're gonna gaslight at least don't be so transparent about it. Yeeesh.
@@ericm5315 gaslight where? Did i say jt didn't do single target damage? No, i said it didn't do AoE, so the comparison with AoE spells isnt valid. Did i say its DPS was anyway weak? No, not at all. You are just lieing.
@@Santisima_Trinidad it's a 56% area increase as advertized. one liberator is now able to engulf an entire mineral line no questions asked. Plus the radius increase compensates for the lost range to the point that it feels like that never changed.
The first half of this game perfectly showcased the exact scenario in which libs are nerfed. Killed queens and can't end the game because spores? Old libs could siege outside spore range in dead space and deny all mining. Despite how large the circle looks, you get exactly zero benefit having 30 targets in range instead of 10 targets in range, it's only going to shoot one shot each time anyway.
The AOE increase matters the most when you're trying to cover a larger area with very few liberators against things that can't shoot up, usually when you leave a few libs to defend against harrass. Lurker harrass, zealot harrass, hellion run bys, these are the things the new libs are better against. May be an unintended turtling buff lol, we'll wait and see.
In army vs army the old range is stronger when you don't get flanked, as people tend to try to snipe libs and dart back out of range immediately, but when you do get flanked, new libs are much stronger, as they can start shoot even directly under themselves. We'll have to wait and see if this turns out to be an buff or a nerf.
11:55 😂
I think this is a nerf to high level Terran but buff to low level Terran, which seems to be how most of the patch notes are - buffs/nerfs to high level that may have the opposite effect in low level. You make a good point about how the radius increase is a big help defensively - I didn't think about that at all. I wonder if they will reduce radius but increase range again because of that?
By the time terran has the upgrade zerg should be able to get air units to hard counter if terran goes mass lib, I like that zerg cant just build queens to kill air units.
The issue is the overlap, primarily. When Liberators start covering one another it scales very quickly into an unfair scenario and with THAT much overlap it's an issue.
It's just incredible how much the radius increase is being overblown as being OP. Compared to a range increase of 2, the radius is much MUCH easier to deal with. I don't see the problem with this change and I'm a Z player. Actually, this matchup demonstrates the radius increase was totally useless and rather detrimental to Astrea. eGGz was already long dead before the liberators came into play, but the focus on liberators by Astrea allowed eGGz to come back in the game while being over 50pop behind. It's laughingly stupid to insist the change is IMBA. Killing stuff while making your liberator impossible to be hit by anything but air units, that's IMBA. Remove range, increase radius = good change.
That problem was much better addressed with a map update. And this is a buff. Other than abusing the poorly designed dead space the range on the libs did nothing that they don't do now and the increase in the area where they shoot is significant in large engagements. This game was two players fooling around with the new mechanics, the result is not significant.
The problem people have is not that it's a major buff. It's not. It's that it is a buff and this race certainly wasn't in need of one.
You know the increased radius negates around 70% of the range nerf, right?
Buddy, he was showing off the new changes. A troll build decision doesn't show a particular unit is strong or weak
Do they even test these updates or just make changes and hope for the best?
the biggest problem is that you can cover way too much space like this, its a big buff to the ability for harassment and zoning and makes counterplay trickier because you cant easily walk around the lib zone anymore
i think reverting the lib area to what it was previously and just lowering the range of ballistic libs by 1 is the better nerf if we need one
PIG, The new Liberator Range is insane. Like very big.
So... I assume there is not a single Zerg player on the balance council?
It seems to be just Terran players for the most part, the members of the council often change and all argue with each other over what each race gets, its extremely biased and the patches have nothing to do with balance and entirely to do with much they scream at each other. For source you can listen to ShowTime talking about it on the Dns/Shdowtime patch video that was released yesterday.
there were a lot of good bufs to zerG. Ultras dont get fucked as hard by unit collision. Microbial shroud now sticks to your units which is something weve wanted for years because all it used to do was tell the enemy exACTLYwhere to cast their splash damage.
Hydras are weird because now we have three upgrades to invest in. So early game nerf late game buff for them due to requiring even more gas investment? Hydras really ought to be tier one in my opinion. Their upgrades should be tier two after unlocking the lair. Although I think atleast one of the three upgrades should be purchasable on hatch tech. Im thinking either +1 range or the dash ability since their defensive upgrades. And speed can be locked behind lair tech like it is for roaches.
Better spine crawler AND spores have more damage but are easier to one shot.
@@SoulCrapper Feel like the buffs to Zerg don't outweigh the nerfs.Hydras bae movement was nerfed in the same buff and tbh I think that's probably just as impactful.. plus they're still flimsy as anything and i don't see how they're the reliable zerg antiair option they're being sold as. A couple siege tanks or colossus still completely rinse them so it doesn't solve zergs anti-air late game problems.
the 1000th queen nerf is also ridiculous. Its like they look at units in a vacuum ignoring the rest of the race.
Yes Queens are crazy strong if you ignore that they're essentially the only defence zerg has, and literally the only anit-air unit early game.
They're also the only unit that allows zerg to manage their lava to actually expand and push drones early... which they NEED to do in any non-cheese game given that the zerg individual units all trade extremely inefficiently and in TvZ in particular, mule drops lead to this being twice as relevant to get ahead in drones early on if you want any chance at surviving through the mid and late game.
As zerg, you don't get wall-offs of siege tanks or overcharges, shield generators and their static defence is just not worth bothering with in higher levels of play as the only defence option given that there is no wall offs and only deal with ground or air separately.
The opponent can just walk to your other base instead and they are too slow to setup before taking losses - spores are a necessary supplementary building for anti-air just because of how bad zergs anti-air is but they're not solid enough to be THE anti-air solution.
I don't get why they have to do these high risk changes. This seems like the Cyclone change that was not totally unnecessary but also harmed toss openings.
Also I don't like that a siege units weaknesses get removed. Faster sieger and bigger circle are insane
Apparently they found the buff room to add smart servos to the liberator but the couldn't find room to bugfix it or give it the small QoL microability change all Zerg units received in a previous patch.
The balance council is wild.
All the terran "nerfs" had the aura of someone during a job interview saying "my biggest weakeness is that I work too hard."
Oh well, at least it will only take them 6 months to do another patch.
Where they will undoubtedly buff Terran again.
I feel like if astrea threw in a couple ravens, then he could have used anti armor missiles and challenged the corruptors with his massive liberator count.
Astrea with one of the biggest throws of the year right here. Truly impressive how such a won-game was tossed away
I do not think the radius upgrade of liberators increases its range. I saw Heromarine comparing it and the radius is increasing inwards
Wow. I heard the update was to radius, but my brain thought the meant diameter and I still thought it was good.
Frenzy is a HotS campaign ability with similar effect
I thought it was pure attack speed in campaign?
@@PiGstarcraft Correct. Uses the same icon though, which is neat
If they want to keep the big AOE, just make it a full 1 range reduction. What is with the weird 0.75 range change.
Well, at least we can conclude that the terrans in the balance council are really, really good at bargaining.
Hydras have a Zealot Charge?? DAMN
Man, that thumbnail is insane lol.
as a terran player I'm praying this makes it in
the update might work, but 5 corruptors should be able to two shot a lib... something not really dsicussed is Libs armor class could change when its in different trasnformations, this would create it to be weaker but easier ot dispatch when in siege mode, but then gain more armor when simpyl flying, so a more of areward punish mechanic for not adept microing... 6.25 range.. I thought 6.0 would be good.. but.. did they take the upgade way fro range? cool update for lib and units that can trasnform back and forth like vikings be cool to have an armor class change making them effective depending on their mode...
"Astrea can't get it up!"
- PiG, 2024
So...who is going to tell Pig the thing about love and babys?
The Terran bias from teh balance council is disgusting obvious.
I hate the fact that astrea was not playing effectively, he was either memeing or trying to send a message about the liberator issue.
I thought Astrea was a Protoss player. He couldn't resist the new libs I guess.
Liberator should have speed upgrade. Micro should be rewarded and all the time delays on Terran units are a reason they have to turtle late game. Get caught out without your units sieged and you die.
This is a very visually impressive change, but you soon realise "wait, this is just what the old liberator did, but now you can actually shoot back at it", and then 3 liberators kill a single queen before they all die in a straight engagement (highest anti ground DPS in the game BTW) Maybe it'll be brought down a bit, to 6.5 radius, but just like all things, it's not about the girth, it's about how you use it.
"3 liberators kill a single queen in a straight up engagement whaaaa" has got to be the most inteIIectuaIy dishonest thing ive read all day. It was 6 queens all dumping all their energy on transfuse vs 3 unupgraded libs. T pIayers continue to show a lack of criticaI thinking abiIity, as per usuaI
"lts not actuaIIy good, 3 liberators kill a single queen in a straight up engagement 😭" has got to be the most inteIIectuaIy dishonest thing lve read all day. It was 6 queens all dumping all their energy on transfuse, all in range and focus firing, vs 3 unupgraded libs. T continues to show a lack of criticaI thinking abiIity, unlucky
"lts not actuaIIy good, 3 liberators kill a single queen in a straight up engagement 😭" is insane dishonest. It was 6 queens all dumping all their energy on transfuse, all in range and focus firing, vs 3 unupgraded libs. Avg T, no criticaI thinkin skiIIs.
Hay Pig would love you to react to the Dns/ShowTime video, they call out the player council for its corruption and abuse. Even the dudes on the council are tearing each other apart now.
I watched the whole thing and have been chatting to DnS about it, definitely something I'll be covering
@@PiGstarcraft Thank you, I think getting the change that is badly needed to keep SC2 alive will be very hard, really only ESL has the weight to pressure Blizzard into removing this dysfunctional council but yourself, Lowko and Winter all have a voice in our community and a part to play in helping this game maintain its viewers and players. Don't underestimate yourself Pig.
If not removed there absolutely needs to be a full disclosure on who is currently in the balance council at any given time, from the communities view it looks like fraud and corruption are taking place and have been since its start, I'm honestly amazed that Hero and several other top Protoss players have not tried to sue them yet. The difference in win rates between Blizzard official patchs and balance council patches is very extreme. The balance council is effectively robbing Protoss players of real life income.
I have encouraged Hero to Sue ESL for agreeing to implement changes that will clearly cost him money and are being created by his opponents, before the balance council took over Hero was considered the best player in the world and had been the highest earning player for the previous 6 months, Hero has a very good case that would stand up in any court. The only reason he has not pressed forward already with this is he feels he would get blacklisted by future tournaments after. Many Protoss pro players have simply chosen to stop playing the game instead of creating a fuss.
Hero refused to take part in the balance council purely because he felt pro players should take no part in it, he felt it was always going to descend into the corrupt cesspit it so clearly has.
HeroMarine is the same, hes stated several times how corrupt the council is and wants no part in it because of that.
Silver league Spore crawlers gonna be mandatory now!
The Liberator radius is stupid. I say just remove the Liberator range upgrade altogether. The Ghost also needs to change. Maybe double the snipe channeling time, reduce snipe damage to 100 or less from 170 and maybe increase EMP energy cost to 125 energy or higher so one Ghost can only cast 1 EMP at a time. Something, anything will do but the Ghost has to change. It's too strong.
Clem or Maru really flexing on that balance council
The new freedom zone is so silly. If I had to choose between the two buffs to keep, I would keep the Smart Servos affecting Liberators buff. I have always thought that Libs and Tanks SHOULD benefit from that ability, since they transform between modes just like the Thors, Hellions, and Vikings.
If Libs need a unique upgrade, change Advanced Ballistics to make it so the Libs pierce armor somehow; maybe they ignore 1 level of armor upgrades, and if you have 0 they hit you as though you were -1. It fits with the name and doesn't sound broken. Or replace it entirely with a new upgrade that lets them shoot buildings. They need to liberate the space for a new Command Center.
Siege units (libs and tanks) shouldnt seige/unseige fast, its the whole point of a seige unit. Its an entirely different class of units as mechanical transforming units.
@@momoaa It's not entirely different though, they are transforming to another mode that has a different purpose than the mode they started in, it's the same thing.
Thors in High impact mode are basically anti-air siege units but they still benefit from Servos.
I understand that from a game balance standpoint it is potentially problematic, but it just makes logical sense for the transforming siege units to make use of the upgraded transformation servos.
@@matthewpelletier6900 Thors don't get locked in place when they change mode. I also wouldn't really class shooting at air units as "sieging" lol.
The reason that neither liberators nor siege tanks should benefit from servos is because the fundamental design of these two units is that they have the downside of decreased mobility to make up for their good range and extremely high damage. When you cut back on that downside, you remove the flavour and fantasy of the unit, as well as making it harder to balance. That's why adaptive talons has been repeatedly nerfed for lurkers and tankivacs were removed.
@Junebug89 their mobility still goes down to 0 in siege mode. Buying an upgrade to make them go in and out of siege mode a little faster doesn't change their identity, it just makes them better at their identity.
@@matthewpelletier6900 "it just makes them better at their identity" jeez man you really dont understand game design. The point of the identity of a unit is to have strengths and weaknesses. Lowering the weaknesses doesnt "make them better at their identity", it just makes them fundamentally overpowered because they are then getting the strength without the weakness.
They wanted less defensive play. Its 1v1. Defense is necessary.
If they're going for less defensive play, they might have to reconsider changing the new liberator.
i always thought liberators are dumb for having such a small area for being an air siege tank. Broodlords and lurkers have siege tank range and are mobile. why must liberators need to siege up and have a small radius of are? they should fix liberators to simply be like a lurker/siege tank where the AOE is the entire land area around it.
The circles look huge, but I think in lower leagues that makes T more stronger than in GM and above. If you want to be T stronger v P on lower leagues, this seems fine. We will have to see if zerg is too weak on this levels.
I tell ya, astrea is an undercover SC -BW player.
12:37 that's what she said
Terran balance council really taking the p with this atch
I'm pretty sure you can just got 3/3 uberlibs only and beat any comp, the mistake was to make marines
Personally I think the new map is rosebudding those planets, not crowning.
Pig try and fight to change this horrible patch 😢 if they will make the queens more expensive ( A Zerg's CORE unit) at least give them increased range or something. Also the Hydra "dash move" it's just so useless. Maybe if it was increased attack speed but it was an ability, that might be good???
13:04 - You heard it here first guys, Astrea is the best NA player IN THE WORLD
Zerg and Terran OP
This was misleading but still highly entertaining.
i think regardless of the result of this game, Astrea still made the point. there is absolutely 0 reason why Astrea should have had this much success in the game by making (and losing) 30+ Liberators in the first like 15 minutes of the game.
It's sooo strange that protoss lacks in late game finishing power. 😅
“Astrea can’t get it up” 😂😂😂😂😂
Zerg was so far behind after losing so many lings on 50 something workers I'm unsure this shows much about how strong Libs are. I think eGGz would have died to pretty much anything after losing 30 lings that early on.
I think the Libs lost him the game pretty much. If he made less Libs & used them each more efficiently opposed to sometimes have 3 siege one base he had this in the bag.
Hmm, the balance council buffed libs, but they alsp buffed spores. What does this mean for the game? Will Terrans still have to work for wins? Literally 1984.
lets nert the turtle style: zerg and terran gets static defense buff protoss gets nerf... nice!
So this buffing terran rampage is never ending then?
A shame singleplayer doesn't get the changes. I want to faceroll Covert Ops on brutal.
7:29
You are welcome
Astrea off-racing as terran on the new patch, how peculiar. Why could that be? very mysterious.
If the hydra dash had been 0.7s instead of 0.71s the zerg would have lost this game.
Lots of people calling OP but Astrea lost and from what Pig was saying it didnt look that good into protoss ealier either so idk
I dont like this patch. Iam tarran and patch seems be very much terran favored. But I hate tvt :(
both guys are playing offrace right?
They named 'blue balls' after... female anatomy???
What kind of troops are there? Just having one can paralyze the entire area?? Disgusting...
As a terran player, the new lib zone is still too small
This looks to me like the worst "balance" patch in recent times. I feel the game as it stands today is almost there, so the changes should be small. Large changes are guaranteed to settle into new unbalanced metas
what a horrible choice to buff the lib. It's a "nerf" which is really a buff.