The creator /ceo of scentbird is someone you should look into. Shes… perfect for your channel. Or At least thats my memory, she had some weird mlm type stuff, I think.
Right. And if there's no easy job, he shouldn't be mad at stay-at-home dads who work from home, acknowledging their jobs are hard too. If you can cheat the "curse", it didn't have as much of a chokehold on humanity as you think.
@@spaghetto9836 Exactly… it’s self-contradictory logic because daycares/baby-sitting are “real jobs” that are directly analogous to being a stay-at-home parent. Reminds me of some of my friends’ families who projected being “blue collar” but owned car dealerships/realty companies. You’re a white collar worker playing pretend
Try to speak every week in front of hundreds and thousands people make videos of it also and prepare you speach by using only one book. If you never get exhausted and find it easy than comeback here and rewrite your comment. If you don't or do and find it hard, stay silent.
@@dodleymortune8422 You realize that these pastors all pull from the SAME PREPARED Speeches right? its all pre-made speeches. Public speaking is a skill, dont get me wrong. But in the context of their own sermons, they aren't working a job.
@@InfinityKrompt Yes they are. They do different sermons on a lot of different subject. Moreover, even if I told you to act à prepared script, it still would be hardwork in public. And lastly a pastor job is not one day à week. They have to speak on meetings during the week. Meet people in the church and speak about their problem, help them. And for the ones with less numerous staff they have to do all the management surrounding building, money, etc. Not mentionning dealing with all the backlash and hate( even un the church) that can come at you the more you go public. Also, a lot of them manage all this by having another job, because for most just being a pastor do not pay your bills, so these ones probably do it because of their conviction not of any interest. And this is just what I know from an outside perspective. If you are good pastor or try to be one, it will be hard, Garantee. All this mentioning that if by any chance they are in the truth, this would be the people that are in the upfront of the entreprise to save people from eternal death. So you can disagree, but at least have some respect for these man please.
We planned a traditional marriage, I worked a job and my wife stayed home…until my wife told me she wasn’t cut out to stay home and wanted to go to work and have me stay home. So we switched and it worked out very well. I enjoyed being the homemaker and my wife was much happier working outside the home. I guess we’re just awful people. Lulz
I know a man that runs a landscaping company. This stereotypically manly guy in a manly job is very open about having loved staying home with his kids when they were young. He loved being able to see the tangible fruits of his labor every day in home upkeep, home cooking, and growing kids. He only started his company when they got older (they’re in college now.)
My Dad was a stay at home dad in the 80s when it was very unfashionable to do so. He raised me while my Mom was a bank VP. My Dad was a carpenter by trade, played professional hockey in his youth, and drank and swore with the best of them. Even by the extremely restrictive ideals of traditional masculinity my father was an all around man's man. He was thousands of times the man Mark Driscoll will ever be. This makes me so angry.
@@user-bq2op4er4t And I'm sure, or I hope, that your family appreciates you for it. Just because you chose a life that was very different to the standard of the era tells me that you're not afraid to stand out in the crowd when it's about your family, and that is amazing. Men like Driscoll are pathetic fragile idiots who can't see past their ego. You, sir, are wonderful.
Huge respects to single parents. Choosing their children over their own selves is one of the biggest selfless decisions they’ve ever made in their lives.
Sometimes it's better to raise the kids alone than with a toxic partner. My ex husband was terrible and when I left him, with the daughter, my life greatly improved. It's not perfect but much better than before.
@@zapkvrher ex being terrible is the responsibility of her ex, not a reflection of her ❤ and also, when women raise the bar and expect more, y’all don’t like that either. Pick a lane
"The Protestant work ethic has been criticized because it places a lot of emphasis on productivity, and it kind of values people for the work that they can produce rather than for just being a human being." As a disabled person who left fundamentalist Christianity (IBLP/IFB) I feel this very deeply. My worth was tied to my ability to be productive but in very specific ways that served the church's agenda. It was one of the things that contributed to my deconstruction.
There’s a fantastic book called “Laziness does not Exist” that explores the marriage of the Protestant moralization of work with the toxic expectations of Capitalism. It’s quite fascinating.
Maybe they know a disabled person isn't in a position (usually) to give them much money. Similar to maybe Republicans and union members ... who cares they weren't likely to vote for me/us anyway.
This is why many Evangelicals are opposed to Unions. Unions help guarantee people are paid fairly, and fair pay doesn't mesh well with the "protestant work ethic". Its feeds the godless communism narrative.
yes, this is so real! I wasn't even in that conservative of a church but your worth at my church was always based on how much labour you did and how many things you got done. i have very severe ADHD that causes me to hardly be able to even function a lot of the time, let alone do tons of extra work to prove myself or whatever. it's exhausting. i hope you have been able to heal from some of the trauma that i'm sure you endured during your time at IBLP. it truly sounds awful
When my wife and I were raising our children, an opportunity presented itself to my wife that made more sense for me to be the primary stay-at-home parent for about a year, while she concentrated on this career opportunity. Personally, I found it to be an incredibly rewarding experience. Even after the situation changed and I was working again, my desire to be with my kids had gotten stronger and raising them got easier. I believe it had a huge positive impact on my relationship with my now adult kids. If that makes me "less of a man," then oh well!
this is exactly it! it's crazy to me not to consider the dad staying home if that's what is most practical and works best for a family, whether it's for financial reasons or whatever else. there's no reason to put dumb rules on things that don't even mean anything. like does he not think that men have the capacity to raise children and take care of a home? so the woman has to do it? honestly sounds kind of exhausting. although he probably doesn't think it's 'real work'. i'm sure if he was left to take care of his children on his own for even one week he would realize how wrong he is
Replace they by he, because one man talking do not represent what all think. Moreover, sometimes people can think something is wrong not in itself, but because of WHO does it. I find dresses very beautiful, but not on everyone.
@@user-cr4pz5yg7y I do not respect a man acting like a woman and vice versa. That doesn't mean I do not respect man's role or woman role. The second part of my comment is the most relevant concerning the comment of briannamorrison.
My grandparents raised me and in the 70s and 80s my grandfather was a stay-at-home parent for my aunt, uncle, and me, because he was diabetic and had to take insulin several times a day. He worked hard caring for our large home, growing large gardens, raising poultry, helping us with school work, building and doing woodwork. He loved children, was gentle and masculine. That pastor is a disgrace to manhood and talks about things he knows nothing about.
Being diabetic is hard enough nowadays, I can’t imagine how much worse it must have been in the 70’s and 80’s! Your grandfather sounds like a great guy.
The Mark Driscolls of the world have to become more and more unhinged because there’s nowhere else to go once you set out down the path of a hate preacher. Once you’ve led your flock out out the realm of decency, tolerance, mutual respect, compassion and humility, you’ll need to keep feeding their ever increasing desire for rage and contempt and distract them from reflecting on what they’ve given up to follow this path.
THIS. Was just thinking, “He’s eventually going to crash, and crash hard.” It’s inevitable! Just like you said, once you’re on this particular hate-preaching track, you HAVE to keep upping the ante. And eventually you’ll get caught up in a shit-storm of human destruction of your own making. I just hope it doesn’t involve kids or SA.
Yes they are going the way of the dodo and they know it. But like all abusive narcissists will not go quietly. Check out the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill for a detailed resume of this guy.
My dad became a stay at home dad when my sister was born in the 90s. She was born with a disability and needed special care. My mom also developed PPD and he did not leave us alone with her until she recovered. My dad loved being a stay at home dad and being able to be home with his kids. He did the housework, cooked, took my sister to all doctor appointments, and coached my soccer teams until I joined the high school team. He was and still is an amazing father.
I was a single father and was on welfare until my son started going to school then gradually began working again. Him saying dads staying at home to care for a small child being clowns tells me it's nothing he's ever done nor do I think he'd be capable of dealing with a crying baby that's hungry and needs to be changed.
Forget changing a diaper. Most of the guys who talk like this aren't even capable of doing their own laundry or feeding themselves beyond a TV dinner. They'd tap out at the first whiff of a diaper.
Critizing stay at home dads is an interesting way to say you don't value the unpaid work that's typically associate with women. (Taylor said the same thing a minute after I typed this. 😂)
Yes, the people who spout this nonsense would be lost if they didn't the people who do all that unpaid work in their lives. The refusal to admit the worth of that unpaid work comes from those who are privileged because of their birth, and won't ever see that privilege. It's rather pathetic how little critical thinking they apply to their own life, but they feel a right to tell others how they should live in their life. Peace 💚
@@peggylinden8146especially as he says that your job is actively trying to undo what you’re trying to accomplish What job does that description apply to more than parenting?
There's nobody as whiny as the wealthy. The people saying there's no other way but hard work and that they earned their wealth tend to be the same people who had it easy, and as soon as it gets a little hard, like when employees demand adequate compensation, they whine.
I’m new to the company I work at, and the wealthiest folks close to retirement are the whiniest of them all. It’s so hard for them you know? Having saved so much for retirement, taking expensive vacations, having fully paid off homes (plus holiday properties). Can’t imagine having it so hard.
Funny how Driscoll has to cite his father and grandfather as examples of manual laborers because he is a professional yapper and has no relevant experiences of his own. He sure is eager to tell everyone else that they need to break their backs every day though.
I don't think this is fair Mark has worked very hard to create an image in his head that he is a sexy cowboy, construction working, coal miner. So he does indeed work hard.
@@nikkio.9990 that’s right, my bad. He has also worked hard for many years to cultivate a flannel collection to most effectively communicate this identity with his wardrobe.
There are definitely people who get paid to take a nap. And eat food, watch shows, play video games, etc. There is pretty much a job for quite literally everything
Yeah, they're called the executive class and they're pretty pointless to keep around. They keep the garbage system we have now in place because they think they "deserve" to get paid doing nothing. They hoard everything because they think their "work", of doing nothing, is worth more than the rest of us killing ourselves just to eat. I want to live in a world where no matter what you do, or don't do, in life doesn't interfere with your ability to eat, have shelter, have clothing, etc. If someone craves all the finer things in life then they can work for them, but the basics of survival should be available to all.
For the "give children chores" topic, why did he focus only on boys? Is he saying that the girls in evangelism are never made to do dishes, learn to cook, do laundry, or especially take care of younger children? I'd love to know if some of the boys in his world are made to cook or change diapers (or is that too gay?)
I clocked that too lol. Clearly he never went to my house when I was a young eldest daughter / built-in-babysitter / being told everything domestic I was being taught was so I could "do it for (my) family someday". While my younger brother primarily contributed by playing video games and sports until I moved out at 21 and was no longer around 😅
God was a stay-at-home dad. Literally built his own house, made his own children and reared them until children grew up, decided to chomp from the tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, and dad decided that aight, if they're so grown-up, they can bloody well go and move out of my house.
Also, God seems to have done less and less work over time, no longer appearing before people or answering prayers, no longer creating anything, and no longer intervening in any shape or form. In fact, if you want to take the analogy further, all God ever did was take credit for what natural processes already accomplished, and events that were going to happen to people anyway.
God's such a stay-at-home dad when shit went south on earth he sent his son over and stayed his ass right at home. And I'm supposed to praise said "sacrifice"? Uhhhh, what? Imagine if I had a court appearing and sent my son in my stead. Am I doing the dad right? Is I good parent?
When I was a kid I used to hate going to my grandfather's house because if he ever caught me reading a book or being creative, he would immediately give me chores. And he did the same thing to my sister, and later on we found out he did the same thing to my mother and her six siblings and to his wife. He never wanted my mother to go to university, but she was the first in the family to do so. She had to study in the cupboard. Not Protestant, but devoutly Catholic. If I had been reading the Bible, maybe he would have had a different view. Apparently one of his dreams was to have one of his sons go to seminary school.
I was put on disability back in 2018. My body was broken and my mind was broken. I went from working a job to owning my own business to disability. It was a HUGE hurdle for me to over come. My wife went back to work full time and I stayed home. It took about three years for me to sink into the role of stay at home dad. One thing looking back I see is how very little time I was spending with my kids. Since then I've been able to mend my relationship with my son and begin a healthy relationship with my daughter. It's work being at home. I am gone for hours a day typically running errands picking kids up and taking to after school stuff. I love that my wife or kids can call me and I can 99% of the time be there for them all. I'm a better man, father and husband than I have ever been. I don't know what this Driscoll dude is talking about. He is just projecting and blowing smoke out his a*s
Also, in Finland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Iceland it is completely normal for dads to stay home with the kids, the governments even pay them to do so. And guess what, we are among the happiest and most successful countries in the world, on every possible level. Strange, huh. (Of course this guy would say "most sinful countries").
I guess I’m an anomaly. I was a stay at home dad for ten years. Once the kids all went to school I got a job. I unload semi trucks early in the morning and I’m done by 8 am. During the summer I come home from work then stay home with the kids all day because my wife also works. So I’m a “man” while I unload trucks, and I’m “not a man” at 8am when I spend the rest of my day at home with the kids. It’s all nonsense.
Biblical scholar, here. Usually you guys are pretty good at this, so I was surprised to hear Drew @08:58 say with such confidence that "I have never heard anyone besides him ever say that men are put here to work before the curse." This may not be the case for the story in Genesis 1, but it is the plain and obvious meaning of the text of the second creation story in Genesis 2-3. It comes out much more clearly in the original language and cultural context, but there is no question that according to Genesis 2:4-15 the man (the "Adam") was created for the purpose of cultivating and looking after the Garden of God in Eden. @11:43 Drew says: "I've never heard anyone say that God intended for us to slave, and toil, and work and all these kinds of things before the curse. The curse was the thing that made toil and work a necessity. Before then you were just living in harmony with the Garden, right? That's what I've heard everyone else say." This may be a popular modern idea, but it is wrong. The Garden was planted by YHWH, for YHWH, and he made the man with the specific purpose to look after it. The Hebrew word often translated as "to work," or "to cultivate" in Gen 2:15 is the same verbal root from which we get the Hebrew word for "slave." I just happen to be writing about the second creation myth at the moment, so it is worthwhile citing what I have said about this idea in my forthcoming book about Israelite religion and the Hebrew Bible: "Genesis 2:5 and v. 15 are quite clear about this: the Adam’s purpose is to serve the ground, the ʾadamah, from which he was formed-'there was no man to work the soil.' This purpose is accomplished by his service in the Garden of God-YHWH settled the Adam 'in the Garden of Eden to work and to watch it.' In an implied sense the man is a 'slave' to the Earth, and this is a theme that is picked up later in the story, but for now, his service is confined to the limits of God’s Garden, the 'Garden of Eden.'” A common misconception about the Garden of Eden is that it was a paradise, created for the pleasure and benefit of the man. No, quite to the contrary, the Garden was FOR GOD, and the man was formed because God wanted someone to look after his Garden, affording him the time and wherewithal to enjoy it. It was his sacred space where divine beings reposed. This was not an expression of the man's commune with nature. No, in the ancient mindset nature was hostile and foreboding. The Garden of God was an urban masterpiece, not unlike the fabled Hanging Gardens that Nebuchadnezzar built in Babylon. Eventually, the man and his woman (NOT his "wife") are banished from the Garden, and their new charge is to perform the SAME work in a now inhospitable, unforgiving landscape. The man and the woman must leave the Garden because they ARE NOT gods; it is not so much a punishment as it is a relocation of them from the divine realm to the human world. The task is the same: cultivation and preparation of the ground-from which the man was formed-for the purpose of keeping himself and his family alive, and to expand civilization outside of the sacred space of Eden. Christian theology has mangled the original meaning of the text, but I think it is important to know these stories in their original context.
My husband was a stay at home dad for a while because he had to be. He injured himself and couldn't work so naturally, I went to work and he stayed home. Seemed like the natural solution at the time. More natural than a belief in god...js...
Implying stay at home parenting isn't work is laughable. It's widely recognized as one of the hardest jobs in the United States, and I've literally heard protestants and evangelicals say that... The fact that people genuinely think Jesus would care if a woman was making more money so the dad decided to be the stay at home parent is ridiculous.
Me and my brother are both disabled. I have cerebral palsy and my brother has an intellectual disability and also has diabetes. He might not be a stay at home dad but I’m so grateful that our dad has cared for us our whole lives.
@@riseofdarkleela checkmate, liberals! but for real, so many people just want to turn their kids into workers as soon as they're like 8 years old. it's so weird
As someone who spent the last twenty years in the work force, I can tell you that wage labor is torture - the bosses ride you to squeeze as much as they can out of you while giving you the bare minimum! Fuck this “you are made to work” bullshit: if I ever get enough assets to leave the labor force, I will not spend even one more minute of my life doing wage labor.
I think work *can* be a positive and meaningful influence on people's lives, it's just that most jobs are not meaningful, they're being wringed dry making shit people don't need to get some nepo baby in a cushy executive position another yacht. If/when you retire, give volunteering a shot. You'd be surprised at how much more enjoyable working can be when it's actually helping people, and on your own terms.
Driscoll removes the agrarian setting (garden) from the whole Bible, which completely erases the cultural context from which the text comes AND erases the human-nature connection that is required to be successful in providing for one's self and family in agricultural societies like the one that created the Bible. Someone should tell Pastor Driscoll that many FARMERS are stay-at-home-dads who WORK their asses off and often earn little in return. For families who farm, children join in the labor because it's necessary to get all the work done, and it's what the family does together. I have a few farmer friends who started farming in part to be able to be home with their children! With most of these RW, uneducated "ministers," what is behind their proscriptions regarding "manhood" are their own insecurities about how well they are performing their perceived gender roles. Finally, Driscoll has some nerve speaking on work!!! While he's blathering on, the WOMEN of the church are feeding the people, caring for the children, running the education department, teaching the classes, and tending to the elders and sick. What a poser! The pastor does the LEAST work of anyone at a church. The pastor's wife, however, KNOWS ABOUT WORK!
When God supposedly gave that command, he didn't exactly specify wage labor, which wasn't a thing, so why wouldn't working around the house qualify just as much?
Only you two and Trevor Poelman can get me to watch any Driscoll at all...I refuse to subject myself to his toxic man-baby tantrums for anyone else. Also, what an insult to homemakers to say that caring for children and a home isn't WORK.
Because what us usual.a women job isn't work ....to mark anyway but women should still get married cause it'll produce happier men according to mark ...his logic at this point is dust
Lmao I love the casual misogyny in everything he says. "Parenting isn't work, it's so easy, anyone who does it full-time is stupid and useless. That's why we give that job to the WOMEN❤" And then they have the absolute gall to shame women who avoid marriage/childbirth at all costs
@@emmyrose233 It seems like even in the best case scenario ("cherish your [obedient] wife" and all that disingenuous, sentimental, patronizing bullsh*t), we fall somewhere between toddlers and livestock in terms of our development and agency.
Questions that Mark has never put more than an ounce of thought into: If there are only two genders, and if a man doesn't work then he isn't a man - but if so, what is he? If a Christian man is able to survive off of an inheritance and/or investments, and even donates all his excess to the poor, is he sinning? Is being a charismatic pastor really that unpleasant or difficult enough to count? If Jesus demonstrates exactly how a man should be, wouldn't that include remaining unmarried, dying young, and having no permanent residence?
As a disabled person, I've nearly ended up in the hospital & made some of my disabilities worse thanks to the mentality that the value of a person lies in their productivity & that they must push themselves as hard as possible to be seen as a good worker. Thankfully, I now have a job that caters to my needs better but we as a society still need to push for better treatment & pay for all workers. Also not everyone can work or some jobs they're simply can't do & it's not okay for Mark to basically call someone lazy or worthless just because they can't do something or chose to do something like be a stay a home parent. There is a massive difference between someone not wanting to do something & them not being able to do something
I lost count long ago of the (myriad) reasons Driscoll would think I'm a terrible man. That might bother me with some people. In his case, I think it's several points in my favor.
I’m a disabled veteran and haven’t worked at a job in about 10 years. Ever since I got out of the military. I’m prone to having flashbacks to combat and can kind of freak out and go crazy so it’s kind of hard to have to deal with that while working at an office or something. I have an uncle that pretty much disowned me and talked shit to me when he found out that I was given service connected disability and didn’t have to work anymore. Now I see where he probably got that opinion from.
Drew is very right, it’s heavily associated with post-industrial revolution and capitalism. It was justification for institutionalizing people with disabilities and “vagrants” first in Europe and then in North America
I have been a stay-at-home dad from the day our son arrived. Shortly after our son arrived (he's adopted), my wife was expecting to be laid off, as a major customer left. She looked for a PM job. I looked for a position as a lawyer. Then, a co-worker in another business unit called, the day before she was to be let go, to offer her a position. So, while I dealt with diapers; shuttling to school, music lessons, and soccer practices,; and homework, my wife got promotions, elite airline and hotel status, and a Master's and a Ph.D. But, here's what is worse than this minister, stay-at-home moms. They don't like stay-at-home dads. Fortunately, I found a few stay-at-dads who like to talk sports, investments, and politics.
Both my parents alternated staying at home. My dad had a construction company, he was a truck driver, etc. He enjoyed cooking and making us breakfast, etc. Honestly, this is something I would look for in a future partner if we wanted to have kids
The mentality of people like this is so harmful. Worshipping hardship, normalizing and celebrating difficult lives with little enjoyment. Working should be hard, marriage should be hard, children should be a pain. In summation: Life should be miserable. What a sad way to live.
I wonder how many Christian women will understand that by Driscoll condemning stay-at-home Dads, he is inferring that being a stay-at-home Mom isn't really work either.
I’m currently also a stay at home dad. The amount of comments and jokes I get is ridiculous. But when my wife was the stay at home parent everyone praised it and didn’t think twice. Religious people are stupid.
@@gnomishviking3013 You are doing a great job ! If a lot of men were truthful with themselves, I am pretty sure they would like to do this...sadly, they are following a script that has been dictated to them.......not independent thinkers....
@ReynardTheFox-dm8py I think you're right. I bet most dads would prefer to spend the first few years, at minimum, being home with their kids. Some might want it to be together with their partner and some might prefer to do it as a more solo thing. It sucks that most of them are pressured into missing all that time with their family. It's high time we tear down the structure we have and put a healthier one in place.
My father is a conservative Christian and raised me as a stay at home father. He's disabled with cerebral palsy and chronic pain from severe burns he sustained from a gas explosion when he was 18. He's also a former truck driver and almost certainly has done more actual blue collar work than Driscoll ever has. While there's a lot I don't see eye-to-eye with my father on now that I'm an adult I can still see how much work he put into raising me and my older brother, along with maintaining the house and handling the paperwork while my mother did the 9-to-5. Apart from the misogyny and hypocrisy in Driscoll's rambling it also reeks of ableism, leaving no room for fathers with disabilities like mine.
I remember being really into Mark Driscol around 2007 when Mars Hill was still a thing. I liked his brash style and unapologetic expression of faith. In hindsight it seems a little silly. The reason I started to drift away from listening to him was his constant messaging that men should be the head of the household, should lead, should bring in the most money etc. I realised it was making me really depressed. I felt a huge pressure to be leading on everything with my wife (then girlfriend/fiance). I noticed how draining it was attempting to be that type of person and that wasn't who I was. While I could do all those things it was a constant fight to be that person. The problem I noticed is that my wife is simply better at some things than me and vice versa so shoehorning people into conservative gender roles just leads to exhaustion. I think it's safe to say this misplaced notion of gender roles probably does a lot of damage to people who, due to their faith, feel the need to conform regardless of ability.
I don't wanna be that guy... but I actually feel like Mark's wife needs a wellness check at home. Some of these titles and videos are super concerning. "You need to forgive".
Really? From all I've known and heard about Japan, it was the opposite, although changing recently. I listened to a podcast by a Chinese sociologist who lives in Japan and she said that one change she's noticed over the years is that before it was really uncommon to see a man with kids out and about, men were mostly supposed to work long days, and even if a family was out together, it's the wife who'd be carrying the kids etc. Whereas now you actually see many more men doing shopping with their kids etc. But I was still under the impression that women are still sort of expected to be the nurturers and even quit their jobs when they get a child, so what you're saying is very interesting to hear (I guess there must be a big societal change these days, what with the economy being different than in the 90s and the low birth rate etc.)
A common trend I see with Driscoll is that he constantly like to use broad strokes to categorize a lot. As some have already mentioned, not all men are capable of working. Not everyone's life plays out the same yet he seems to think one size fits all when I've never seen a solution where this actually works.
This guy's video was only bearable because I kept on imagining "stay at home clowns". I kept thinking about how difficult it must have been for the clowning industry during the pandemic. All those children's birthday parties on zoom! How terrifying!
My brother is diagnosed with schizophrenia for at least 10 years, and because of his illness it's very difficult for him to have a job or find a job. Last year he also tried to commit a suicide (he was convinced that all people just want him to suffer). Luckily he failed but he ended up with multiple fractures, he is still recovering. We are just surprised that he survived and without ending up on wheal chair (he jumped of 7th floor. He fell on plastic roof above the entrance and that apparently saved his life). Listening to Mark talking about men's worth being in their work and nothing else sounds to me like a perfect recipe for suicide. I take this very very personally. Not everybody can work or find a job. I agree that we shouldn't be lazy but there are more ways to be useful to society and God then work.
In stayed home with my daughter for her first 3+ years. Our bond now is light-years stronger than it would have been. Plus, because I wasn't wasting my life punching the clock I was able to launch my business and now I'm self employed. Staying home with my daughter was the best thing I ever did.
It's hard to even imagine to comprehend the amount of insecurity that must amass in this guy's following-and who are now searching for obviously toxic solutions for their feellings...
You guys are always insightful, your takes how privilege and scamming factor into the acquisition of wealth, and the difficulty and value of being a stay at home parent are spot on, thanks for all of the work you do, getting good info out there in opposition to their horrible grifter narratives is of great importance.
I recently watched a video essay that addressed the objectification of men as tools of either labor or violence and it was honestly eye opening. The oppression and objectification of men goes hand in hand with the oppression and objectification of women in a society purely interested in the capital they can extract from its people. Considering the feudalist system that the church supported, it seems like the system is set up to instill fear and conformity in the peasants subjugated by the feudal system.
8:23 (assuming he’s speaking to stay at home dads in this clip and not, like, single unemployed men) it says a lot about his misunderstanding of the role of a stay at home parent if he thinks being a stay at home parent isn’t “work.” Ask an average stay at home mom what her day looks like and I dare anyone to claim it’s not hard work. Maybe this gets addressed later but to me it just speaks volumes about how poorly they understand or accurately value to labor of roles traditionally given to women and I couldn’t help but mention it.
I was a man until I retired. I had an easy job. I would program a CNC machine and make parts. My last job I made the same part for over a year so there was no programing involved. Every 20 minutes I would change the part and push the "START" button then read newspapers, magazines and play on my computer for 20 minutes. Now I'm 80 years old and have ED so I guess God's punishing me for retiring. Fortunately Satan invented Viagra.
my dad… a pastor… worked from home and was essentially a stay at home dad while my mom worked outside the home when i was in middle and high school. he used to cook dinner every night and make fresh bread at least a nice a week
From Matthew 6, 25-33: 25 Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink,[a] or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 And which of you by worrying can add a single hour to your span of life?[b] 28 And why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin, 29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not clothed like one of these. 30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you-you of little faith? 31 Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear?’ 32 For it is the gentiles who seek all these things, and indeed your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God[c] and his[d] righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. I guess JC doesn’t want us to work😂
This is the problem with church and religion....people. People cannot separate themselves and their own issues and personal preferences from anything so even when given doctrine to follow, they are going to twist it in some way to suit their own purposes and preferences. This why there are so many different churches with different beliefs... all based on who's preaching and interpreting it. So if pastor is a dude-bro hopped up on redpill and toxic masculinity, thius will be his take and he will try to twist it with the bible to make his beliefs God's word...
For all Mark Driscoll's cosplaying as a blue collar worker, he clearly has never done any kind of manual labor or picked up any tools in his life. I'll bet his hands are silky smooth and his nails are perfectly manicured.
A friend of mine had a stay-at-home dad while growing up (he wasn't jobless, he worked, but focused mainly on his son=my friend) and this dad is one of the most amazing and extraordinary people that I've ever met. So wise, and yet so kind and aware of the worldly issues. I met this friend when we were about 15 and we became besties along with the other people (we have a specific friend group and a group chat), so I visit him quite often and his dad is basically like my other friend haha, but he's still a gentleman! PS: Your channel is one of my favs out there, I truly enjoy listening to you guys! Sending much love!❤
(at about 15 mins in) my stepdad has a similar mindset as this guy and if he was actually super involved in religion the way my mom is he'd prob be all about this guy. and i can confirm. "chores" for me as a kid was basically having to clean the entire house top to bottom every weekend and do at least 3 chores after school, but also being told "i'm never going to notice the ones you did do, only the one's you didn't" so effectively no matter how hard i worked at any of the chores there would always be something else that didn't get done that i could be yelled at for. and my brother having adhd was no acknowledged and he was frequently told to "man up" bc that would help him remember to take the trash out somehow 😒 nothing was ever enough and thats what they taught me, and it turns out that actually the real world isn't even like that. they told me i was so bad at housework and cooking that i'd never make it in the real world but honestly even my managers in retail were nicer to me sometimes.
so yeah basically this protestant work ethic is one of the worst and most damaging things i was taught growing up. i'm disabled now, the guilt over not being able to do enough for my partner can be crushing sometimes.
oh yeah, i can't forget. while my stepdad "taught" me this by screaming at me and saying explicitely nothing will ever be good enough, my mom modelled this by her own actions. reading books is "lazy" and she likes to read but she can't do it or else she feels like she wasted all her time. reading was ONLY for vacation. (somehow hours of tv in the evening was ok though 😅) so yeah its not healthy for ANYONE. i can only speak for how it affected me but they (my parents) did in fact use many insults to my brother to "motivate" him to get stuff done, such as man up or telling him he's weak or a crybaby. it makes me sad but it also makes me proud of him bc he did not internalize that and recognized it as abusive before i ever did. he is a good person ❤
I was raised by a stay-at-home dad who did the cleaning and brought us to soccer practice. Bizarre to me that anyone thinks gender should have any influence when it comes to loving and raising your kids.
20:15 it's depressing how almost everyone agrees that work is bad, work is too much, pay is not high enough compared to how much time and effort you put into your job (or, in Driscoll's words, “cursed“)....... yet if you tell them “see, capitalism is bad‘, they go bananas and think you want to take away their hard earned money. No, we don't. We want you (and everyone else) to have enough money to live a comfortable life, fulfill your dreams, and choose work that is meaningful to you & your community WITHOUT having to work this hard. You deserve a decent amount of money each month not because you self-sacrifice for your boss, but because you, as a human being, deserve a good life. That's the future the left wants - for you too. Hardly anyone ever truly *enjoys* being overworked, even those who are convinced that this is the right thing to do.
“You need to work…” means “i need your money so work for me”… ”you cannot sit around and pontificate…” means “that is my job for you…and you cannot do it cause then you wouldn’t be working…to provide for me”
Yo, anthropologist here. Had to comment about cgildren being put to work. Children have been "working" since prehistoric times for survival reasons. Parents/hunting and gathering groups would teach their kids how to make and use tools early because that's what they needed to know to live. The sooner their children learned these skills, the sooner they could help hunt/gather/take care of the group and increase chances of survival. This trend continued through antiquity all the way through the Victorian Era. Childhood was viewed through a very different lens in the past and our current view of letting children enjoy their childhood is very recent. This pastor doesn't know what the fuck he's talking abput and is clearly pushing his agenda on toxic masculinity and misogyny.
It is so sad that Mark is LARPing as a working man to take advantage of people who would be better off never coming into contact with him, and they keep falling for it.
I'm pretty sure some people have been paid to take naps for medical research... and what do you do for your money when you get paid for owning things that others need to create wealth for themselves by working like startup capital, land, machine resources.? Most people who own major companies do no more than napping for their money.
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“Work is gonna be hard; there is no easy job” says the dude whose job is to make speeches that require zero critical thinking
I'd love for him to be asked "So what makes your job different?" to his face and try to mental acrobat his way out of it.
Right? There is no easy job......except mine but it's taken, you can't have it.
Right. And if there's no easy job, he shouldn't be mad at stay-at-home dads who work from home, acknowledging their jobs are hard too. If you can cheat the "curse", it didn't have as much of a chokehold on humanity as you think.
@@spaghetto9836 Exactly… it’s self-contradictory logic because daycares/baby-sitting are “real jobs” that are directly analogous to being a stay-at-home parent. Reminds me of some of my friends’ families who projected being “blue collar” but owned car dealerships/realty companies. You’re a white collar worker playing pretend
And he even discourages study and education, so he’s doing the absolute easiest version of his job. What a prick.
I didn't realize that standing on a stage misquoting the bible counted as "Work". Interesting.
You try slinging that much bullshit.
It’s hard on the back. 😂
Try to speak every week in front of hundreds and thousands people make videos of it also and prepare you speach by using only one book.
If you never get exhausted and find it easy than comeback here and rewrite your comment. If you don't or do and find it hard, stay silent.
@@dodleymortune8422 You realize that these pastors all pull from the SAME PREPARED Speeches right? its all pre-made speeches. Public speaking is a skill, dont get me wrong. But in the context of their own sermons, they aren't working a job.
@@InfinityKrompt
Yes they are. They do different sermons on a lot of different subject. Moreover, even if I told you to act à prepared script, it still would be hardwork in public.
And lastly a pastor job is not one day à week. They have to speak on meetings during the week. Meet people in the church and speak about their problem, help them. And for the ones with less numerous staff they have to do all the management surrounding building, money, etc. Not mentionning dealing with all the backlash and hate( even un the church) that can come at you the more you go public. Also, a lot of them manage all this by having another job, because for most just being a pastor do not pay your bills, so these ones probably do it because of their conviction not of any interest.
And this is just what I know from an outside perspective. If you are good pastor or try to be one, it will be hard, Garantee.
All this mentioning that if by any chance they are in the truth, this would be the people that are in the upfront of the entreprise to save people from eternal death.
So you can disagree, but at least have some respect for these man please.
And he just says the most conservative views and everyone cheers sounds easy af
We planned a traditional marriage, I worked a job and my wife stayed home…until my wife told me she wasn’t cut out to stay home and wanted to go to work and have me stay home. So we switched and it worked out very well. I enjoyed being the homemaker and my wife was much happier working outside the home. I guess we’re just awful people. Lulz
Happy for both of you! You found what works for your family...good for you!😊
“You are the wife”
@@Niskquintana What an insightful comment!
I know a man that runs a landscaping company. This stereotypically manly guy in a manly job is very open about having loved staying home with his kids when they were young. He loved being able to see the tangible fruits of his labor every day in home upkeep, home cooking, and growing kids.
He only started his company when they got older (they’re in college now.)
@@Niskquintaname too❤
My Dad was a stay at home dad in the 80s when it was very unfashionable to do so. He raised me while my Mom was a bank VP.
My Dad was a carpenter by trade, played professional hockey in his youth, and drank and swore with the best of them. Even by the extremely restrictive ideals of traditional masculinity my father was an all around man's man.
He was thousands of times the man Mark Driscoll will ever be. This makes me so angry.
Taking care of a home IS WORK!!! And this is just capitalism apologia, too.
Your dad sounds very cool and hard working :)
Thank you for saying this, it truly made my eyes water a bit. I have lived that same life as you father did.
And like a true man's man, he did what his loved ones needed of him, ego be damned. Good for him.
@@user-bq2op4er4t And I'm sure, or I hope, that your family appreciates you for it. Just because you chose a life that was very different to the standard of the era tells me that you're not afraid to stand out in the crowd when it's about your family, and that is amazing. Men like Driscoll are pathetic fragile idiots who can't see past their ego. You, sir, are wonderful.
Huge respects to single parents. Choosing their children over their own selves is one of the biggest selfless decisions they’ve ever made in their lives.
I don't speak for all of them. But, thanks. Just seemed like a no brainer to me.
Sometimes it's better to raise the kids alone than with a toxic partner. My ex husband was terrible and when I left him, with the daughter, my life greatly improved. It's not perfect but much better than before.
WRONG.
@nola281 AND YOU PICKED HIM. So we should listen to you??? Okay. FFS
@@zapkvrher ex being terrible is the responsibility of her ex, not a reflection of her ❤ and also, when women raise the bar and expect more, y’all don’t like that either. Pick a lane
"The Protestant work ethic has been criticized because it places a lot of emphasis on productivity, and it kind of values people for the work that they can produce rather than for just being a human being." As a disabled person who left fundamentalist Christianity (IBLP/IFB) I feel this very deeply. My worth was tied to my ability to be productive but in very specific ways that served the church's agenda. It was one of the things that contributed to my deconstruction.
There’s a fantastic book called “Laziness does not Exist” that explores the marriage of the Protestant moralization of work with the toxic expectations of Capitalism. It’s quite fascinating.
Maybe they know a disabled person isn't in a position (usually) to give them much money. Similar to maybe Republicans and union members
... who cares they weren't likely to vote for me/us anyway.
This is why many Evangelicals are opposed to Unions. Unions help guarantee people are paid fairly, and fair pay doesn't mesh well with the "protestant work ethic". Its feeds the godless communism narrative.
yes, this is so real! I wasn't even in that conservative of a church but your worth at my church was always based on how much labour you did and how many things you got done. i have very severe ADHD that causes me to hardly be able to even function a lot of the time, let alone do tons of extra work to prove myself or whatever. it's exhausting.
i hope you have been able to heal from some of the trauma that i'm sure you endured during your time at IBLP. it truly sounds awful
@@DystopianDIY not my comment but thank you for this recommendation! that sounds really interesting
When my wife and I were raising our children, an opportunity presented itself to my wife that made more sense for me to be the primary stay-at-home parent for about a year, while she concentrated on this career opportunity. Personally, I found it to be an incredibly rewarding experience. Even after the situation changed and I was working again, my desire to be with my kids had gotten stronger and raising them got easier. I believe it had a huge positive impact on my relationship with my now adult kids. If that makes me "less of a man," then oh well!
this is exactly it! it's crazy to me not to consider the dad staying home if that's what is most practical and works best for a family, whether it's for financial reasons or whatever else. there's no reason to put dumb rules on things that don't even mean anything. like does he not think that men have the capacity to raise children and take care of a home? so the woman has to do it? honestly sounds kind of exhausting. although he probably doesn't think it's 'real work'. i'm sure if he was left to take care of his children on his own for even one week he would realize how wrong he is
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I’ve heard hundreds of sermons on forgiveness. Never once heard a sermon on apologizing.
Great point!
In my mind the only word popping up when hearing him was "ableist". This man is ableist. Not all people can work.
Oh I have a lot more words for him than that but I can sum them up as "fascist".
seriously. measuring someone's worth on how much labour they can do is so dehumanizing
Agree@@noracola5285
Indeed, I agree with you@@dliap98
Stay at home dad here wondering whats wrong with being a clown? Makes the kids laugh 😊
It just goes to show how they don't think what a housewife does is hard work. They don't really respect it, even though they say they do.
Replace they by he, because one man talking do not represent what all think.
Moreover, sometimes people can think something is wrong not in itself, but because of WHO does it.
I find dresses very beautiful, but not on everyone.
@dodleymortune8422 When dealing with christians, stereotypes fit quite well.
@@user-cr4pz5yg7y
I do not respect a man acting like a woman and vice versa. That doesn't mean I do not respect man's role or woman role.
The second part of my comment is the most relevant concerning the comment of briannamorrison.
My grandparents raised me and in the 70s and 80s my grandfather was a stay-at-home parent for my aunt, uncle, and me, because he was diabetic and had to take insulin several times a day. He worked hard caring for our large home, growing large gardens, raising poultry, helping us with school work, building and doing woodwork. He loved children, was gentle and masculine. That pastor is a disgrace to manhood and talks about things he knows nothing about.
Sounds like a wonderful grandfather !❤
Your grandfather sounds wonderful!
Being diabetic is hard enough nowadays, I can’t imagine how much worse it must have been in the 70’s and 80’s! Your grandfather sounds like a great guy.
The Mark Driscolls of the world have to become more and more unhinged because there’s nowhere else to go once you set out down the path of a hate preacher. Once you’ve led your flock out out the realm of decency, tolerance, mutual respect, compassion and humility, you’ll need to keep feeding their ever increasing desire for rage and contempt and distract them from reflecting on what they’ve given up to follow this path.
THIS. Was just thinking, “He’s eventually going to crash, and crash hard.” It’s inevitable! Just like you said, once you’re on this particular hate-preaching track, you HAVE to keep upping the ante. And eventually you’ll get caught up in a shit-storm of human destruction of your own making. I just hope it doesn’t involve kids or SA.
This! Really insightful.
Yes they are going the way of the dodo and they know it. But like all abusive narcissists will not go quietly. Check out the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill for a detailed resume of this guy.
My dad became a stay at home dad when my sister was born in the 90s. She was born with a disability and needed special care. My mom also developed PPD and he did not leave us alone with her until she recovered. My dad loved being a stay at home dad and being able to be home with his kids. He did the housework, cooked, took my sister to all doctor appointments, and coached my soccer teams until I joined the high school team. He was and still is an amazing father.
Awesome to hear!😊
I was a single father and was on welfare until my son started going to school then gradually began working again. Him saying dads staying at home to care for a small child being clowns tells me it's nothing he's ever done nor do I think he'd be capable of dealing with a crying baby that's hungry and needs to be changed.
Forget changing a diaper. Most of the guys who talk like this aren't even capable of doing their own laundry or feeding themselves beyond a TV dinner. They'd tap out at the first whiff of a diaper.
Critizing stay at home dads is an interesting way to say you don't value the unpaid work that's typically associate with women.
(Taylor said the same thing a minute after I typed this. 😂)
Exactly! As a stay-at-home home mom, I resent the implication I didn't work.
Yes, the people who spout this nonsense would be lost if they didn't the people who do all that unpaid work in their lives. The refusal to admit the worth of that unpaid work comes from those who are privileged because of their birth, and won't ever see that privilege. It's rather pathetic how little critical thinking they apply to their own life, but they feel a right to tell others how they should live in their life. Peace 💚
@@peggylinden8146especially as he says that your job is actively trying to undo what you’re trying to accomplish
What job does that description apply to more than parenting?
Thank the feminists who claim to be better then men 😂
@@Niskquintana You have no idea about women, who they are, what they want, any aspect of being a woman, other than as a subordinate to you.
There's nobody as whiny as the wealthy. The people saying there's no other way but hard work and that they earned their wealth tend to be the same people who had it easy, and as soon as it gets a little hard, like when employees demand adequate compensation, they whine.
I’m new to the company I work at, and the wealthiest folks close to retirement are the whiniest of them all. It’s so hard for them you know? Having saved so much for retirement, taking expensive vacations, having fully paid off homes (plus holiday properties). Can’t imagine having it so hard.
So glad someone else pointed that out! Somehow I don’t think he would insist that the many men with inherited wealth are unmanly.
Funny how Driscoll has to cite his father and grandfather as examples of manual laborers because he is a professional yapper and has no relevant experiences of his own. He sure is eager to tell everyone else that they need to break their backs every day though.
And then hand over the money earned.
He’s got an associates in Yappology, and a masters in Rantology
I don't think this is fair Mark has worked very hard to create an image in his head that he is a sexy cowboy, construction working, coal miner.
So he does indeed work hard.
@@nikkio.9990 that’s right, my bad. He has also worked hard for many years to cultivate a flannel collection to most effectively communicate this identity with his wardrobe.
There are definitely people who get paid to take a nap. And eat food, watch shows, play video games, etc. There is pretty much a job for quite literally everything
Yeah, they're called the executive class and they're pretty pointless to keep around. They keep the garbage system we have now in place because they think they "deserve" to get paid doing nothing. They hoard everything because they think their "work", of doing nothing, is worth more than the rest of us killing ourselves just to eat. I want to live in a world where no matter what you do, or don't do, in life doesn't interfere with your ability to eat, have shelter, have clothing, etc. If someone craves all the finer things in life then they can work for them, but the basics of survival should be available to all.
For the "give children chores" topic, why did he focus only on boys? Is he saying that the girls in evangelism are never made to do dishes, learn to cook, do laundry, or especially take care of younger children? I'd love to know if some of the boys in his world are made to cook or change diapers (or is that too gay?)
I don’t think he considers any of that “work.” He’s so disgusting.
That's "women's work." Which of course isn't actually work. (Eyeroll)
I clocked that too lol. Clearly he never went to my house when I was a young eldest daughter / built-in-babysitter / being told everything domestic I was being taught was so I could "do it for (my) family someday". While my younger brother primarily contributed by playing video games and sports until I moved out at 21 and was no longer around 😅
God was a stay-at-home dad. Literally built his own house, made his own children and reared them until children grew up, decided to chomp from the tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, and dad decided that aight, if they're so grown-up, they can bloody well go and move out of my house.
Also, God seems to have done less and less work over time, no longer appearing before people or answering prayers, no longer creating anything, and no longer intervening in any shape or form. In fact, if you want to take the analogy further, all God ever did was take credit for what natural processes already accomplished, and events that were going to happen to people anyway.
God's such a stay-at-home dad when shit went south on earth he sent his son over and stayed his ass right at home. And I'm supposed to praise said "sacrifice"? Uhhhh, what? Imagine if I had a court appearing and sent my son in my stead. Am I doing the dad right? Is I good parent?
God went to go get milk from the store after Jesus was resurrected and hasn't been seen since.
Dude he’s a bit of a dead beat. He literally got Mary pregnant and told Joesph to be the Dad.
@@FrozEnbyWolf150
More like you no longer believe when people tell you about him appearing to them, healing them, etc.
When I was a kid I used to hate going to my grandfather's house because if he ever caught me reading a book or being creative, he would immediately give me chores. And he did the same thing to my sister, and later on we found out he did the same thing to my mother and her six siblings and to his wife. He never wanted my mother to go to university, but she was the first in the family to do so. She had to study in the cupboard. Not Protestant, but devoutly Catholic. If I had been reading the Bible, maybe he would have had a different view. Apparently one of his dreams was to have one of his sons go to seminary school.
I was put on disability back in 2018. My body was broken and my mind was broken. I went from working a job to owning my own business to disability. It was a HUGE hurdle for me to over come. My wife went back to work full time and I stayed home. It took about three years for me to sink into the role of stay at home dad. One thing looking back I see is how very little time I was spending with my kids. Since then I've been able to mend my relationship with my son and begin a healthy relationship with my daughter. It's work being at home. I am gone for hours a day typically running errands picking kids up and taking to after school stuff. I love that my wife or kids can call me and I can 99% of the time be there for them all. I'm a better man, father and husband than I have ever been. I don't know what this Driscoll dude is talking about. He is just projecting and blowing smoke out his a*s
Also, in Finland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Iceland it is completely normal for dads to stay home with the kids, the governments even pay them to do so. And guess what, we are among the happiest and most successful countries in the world, on every possible level. Strange, huh. (Of course this guy would say "most sinful countries").
True
I guess I’m an anomaly.
I was a stay at home dad for ten years. Once the kids all went to school I got a job. I unload semi trucks early in the morning and I’m done by 8 am. During the summer I come home from work then stay home with the kids all day because my wife also works. So I’m a “man” while I unload trucks, and I’m “not a man” at 8am when I spend the rest of my day at home with the kids.
It’s all nonsense.
I feel like all of these people forgot about hunter and gatherer societies that work like 1/3 of the hours we do farming...
Stayed home to raise my daughter............best "job' I ever had !
Biblical scholar, here.
Usually you guys are pretty good at this, so I was surprised to hear Drew @08:58 say with such confidence that "I have never heard anyone besides him ever say that men are put here to work before the curse." This may not be the case for the story in Genesis 1, but it is the plain and obvious meaning of the text of the second creation story in Genesis 2-3. It comes out much more clearly in the original language and cultural context, but there is no question that according to Genesis 2:4-15 the man (the "Adam") was created for the purpose of cultivating and looking after the Garden of God in Eden.
@11:43 Drew says: "I've never heard anyone say that God intended for us to slave, and toil, and work and all these kinds of things before the curse. The curse was the thing that made toil and work a necessity. Before then you were just living in harmony with the Garden, right? That's what I've heard everyone else say."
This may be a popular modern idea, but it is wrong. The Garden was planted by YHWH, for YHWH, and he made the man with the specific purpose to look after it. The Hebrew word often translated as "to work," or "to cultivate" in Gen 2:15 is the same verbal root from which we get the Hebrew word for "slave." I just happen to be writing about the second creation myth at the moment, so it is worthwhile citing what I have said about this idea in my forthcoming book about Israelite religion and the Hebrew Bible:
"Genesis 2:5 and v. 15 are quite clear about this: the Adam’s purpose is to serve the ground, the ʾadamah, from which he was formed-'there was no man to work the soil.' This purpose is accomplished by his service in the Garden of God-YHWH settled the Adam 'in the Garden of Eden to work and to watch it.' In an implied sense the man is a 'slave' to the Earth, and this is a theme that is picked up later in the story, but for now, his service is confined to the limits of God’s Garden, the 'Garden of Eden.'”
A common misconception about the Garden of Eden is that it was a paradise, created for the pleasure and benefit of the man. No, quite to the contrary, the Garden was FOR GOD, and the man was formed because God wanted someone to look after his Garden, affording him the time and wherewithal to enjoy it. It was his sacred space where divine beings reposed. This was not an expression of the man's commune with nature. No, in the ancient mindset nature was hostile and foreboding. The Garden of God was an urban masterpiece, not unlike the fabled Hanging Gardens that Nebuchadnezzar built in Babylon. Eventually, the man and his woman (NOT his "wife") are banished from the Garden, and their new charge is to perform the SAME work in a now inhospitable, unforgiving landscape. The man and the woman must leave the Garden because they ARE NOT gods; it is not so much a punishment as it is a relocation of them from the divine realm to the human world. The task is the same: cultivation and preparation of the ground-from which the man was formed-for the purpose of keeping himself and his family alive, and to expand civilization outside of the sacred space of Eden.
Christian theology has mangled the original meaning of the text, but I think it is important to know these stories in their original context.
Thank you for the correction!
@@theantibot NP. I am happy to help!
🔥
It's times like this that I'm reminded how much work it was being a Christian, constantly hating someone.
It always appears to me the people who tell us you got to work, are that ones who don't work. Talking crap is not work.
My husband was a stay at home dad for a while because he had to be. He injured himself and couldn't work so naturally, I went to work and he stayed home. Seemed like the natural solution at the time. More natural than a belief in god...js...
Implying stay at home parenting isn't work is laughable. It's widely recognized as one of the hardest jobs in the United States, and I've literally heard protestants and evangelicals say that... The fact that people genuinely think Jesus would care if a woman was making more money so the dad decided to be the stay at home parent is ridiculous.
Am I the only one who kept hearing Britney Spears' "Work B*tch" playing in their head while Driscoll was talking?
Me and my brother are both disabled. I have cerebral palsy and my brother has an intellectual disability and also has diabetes. He might not be a stay at home dad but I’m so grateful that our dad has cared for us our whole lives.
I feel this is a “lower the minimum working age” dog whistle just a little bit too
Nobody has to stay home with the kiddos if they are also at work.
@@riseofdarkleela checkmate, liberals!
but for real, so many people just want to turn their kids into workers as soon as they're like 8 years old. it's so weird
Plus, everyone should work 10-12 hours a day, 52 weeks a year until they die.
As someone who spent the last twenty years in the work force, I can tell you that wage labor is torture - the bosses ride you to squeeze as much as they can out of you while giving you the bare minimum! Fuck this “you are made to work” bullshit: if I ever get enough assets to leave the labor force, I will not spend even one more minute of my life doing wage labor.
Even in a communist society, people are working much harder. There will always be work.
@@Jeremy-wp4yh As if there ever was a genuine Communist society…
I think work *can* be a positive and meaningful influence on people's lives, it's just that most jobs are not meaningful, they're being wringed dry making shit people don't need to get some nepo baby in a cushy executive position another yacht.
If/when you retire, give volunteering a shot. You'd be surprised at how much more enjoyable working can be when it's actually helping people, and on your own terms.
Driscoll removes the agrarian setting (garden) from the whole Bible, which completely erases the cultural context from which the text comes AND erases the human-nature connection that is required to be successful in providing for one's self and family in agricultural societies like the one that created the Bible.
Someone should tell Pastor Driscoll that many FARMERS are stay-at-home-dads who WORK their asses off and often earn little in return. For families who farm, children join in the labor because it's necessary to get all the work done, and it's what the family does together. I have a few farmer friends who started farming in part to be able to be home with their children!
With most of these RW, uneducated "ministers," what is behind their proscriptions regarding "manhood" are their own insecurities about how well they are performing their perceived gender roles.
Finally, Driscoll has some nerve speaking on work!!! While he's blathering on, the WOMEN of the church are feeding the people, caring for the children, running the education department, teaching the classes, and tending to the elders and sick. What a poser! The pastor does the LEAST work of anyone at a church. The pastor's wife, however, KNOWS ABOUT WORK!
When God supposedly gave that command, he didn't exactly specify wage labor, which wasn't a thing, so why wouldn't working around the house qualify just as much?
Because major capitalist retcon….
Exactly!!!
Because he also said the man must provide for his family.
Only you two and Trevor Poelman can get me to watch any Driscoll at all...I refuse to subject myself to his toxic man-baby tantrums for anyone else.
Also, what an insult to homemakers to say that caring for children and a home isn't WORK.
Because what us usual.a women job isn't work ....to mark anyway but women should still get married cause it'll produce happier men according to mark ...his logic at this point is dust
Lmao I love the casual misogyny in everything he says. "Parenting isn't work, it's so easy, anyone who does it full-time is stupid and useless. That's why we give that job to the WOMEN❤" And then they have the absolute gall to shame women who avoid marriage/childbirth at all costs
@@emmyrose233 It seems like even in the best case scenario ("cherish your [obedient] wife" and all that disingenuous, sentimental, patronizing bullsh*t), we fall somewhere between toddlers and livestock in terms of our development and agency.
Normally those that are obsessed with war have never set foot in a combat zone. If they did, their concept of warfare would change drastically.
Any pastor that is constantly railing against demons is 100% beset by demons. You preach what you know.
Questions that Mark has never put more than an ounce of thought into:
If there are only two genders, and if a man doesn't work then he isn't a man - but if so, what is he?
If a Christian man is able to survive off of an inheritance and/or investments, and even donates all his excess to the poor, is he sinning?
Is being a charismatic pastor really that unpleasant or difficult enough to count?
If Jesus demonstrates exactly how a man should be, wouldn't that include remaining unmarried, dying young, and having no permanent residence?
As a disabled person, I've nearly ended up in the hospital & made some of my disabilities worse thanks to the mentality that the value of a person lies in their productivity & that they must push themselves as hard as possible to be seen as a good worker. Thankfully, I now have a job that caters to my needs better but we as a society still need to push for better treatment & pay for all workers. Also not everyone can work or some jobs they're simply can't do & it's not okay for Mark to basically call someone lazy or worthless just because they can't do something or chose to do something like be a stay a home parent. There is a massive difference between someone not wanting to do something & them not being able to do something
"Mark Driscoll is a clown and God doesn't take him seriously" 😂
“I’m Mark Driscoll, welcome to more reasons you’re not good enough!”
I lost count long ago of the (myriad) reasons Driscoll would think I'm a terrible man.
That might bother me with some people. In his case, I think it's several points in my favor.
I’m a disabled veteran and haven’t worked at a job in about 10 years. Ever since I got out of the military. I’m prone to having flashbacks to combat and can kind of freak out and go crazy so it’s kind of hard to have to deal with that while working at an office or something. I have an uncle that pretty much disowned me and talked shit to me when he found out that I was given service connected disability and didn’t have to work anymore. Now I see where he probably got that opinion from.
14:11 yes!!! It’s the vilification of “sloth” and “idleness”. Often used against people with disabilities and POC
Drew is very right, it’s heavily associated with post-industrial revolution and capitalism. It was justification for institutionalizing people with disabilities and “vagrants” first in Europe and then in North America
I have been a stay-at-home dad from the day our son arrived. Shortly after our son arrived (he's adopted), my wife was expecting to be laid off, as a major customer left. She looked for a PM job. I looked for a position as a lawyer.
Then, a co-worker in another business unit called, the day before she was to be let go, to offer her a position.
So, while I dealt with diapers; shuttling to school, music lessons, and soccer practices,; and homework, my wife got promotions, elite airline and hotel status, and a Master's and a Ph.D.
But, here's what is worse than this minister, stay-at-home moms. They don't like stay-at-home dads.
Fortunately, I found a few stay-at-dads who like to talk sports, investments, and politics.
Both my parents alternated staying at home. My dad had a construction company, he was a truck driver, etc. He enjoyed cooking and making us breakfast, etc. Honestly, this is something I would look for in a future partner if we wanted to have kids
The mentality of people like this is so harmful. Worshipping hardship, normalizing and celebrating difficult lives with little enjoyment. Working should be hard, marriage should be hard, children should be a pain. In summation: Life should be miserable. What a sad way to live.
I wonder how many Christian women will understand that by Driscoll condemning stay-at-home Dads, he is inferring that being a stay-at-home Mom isn't really work either.
As a stay at home dad myself, I'm fascinated to see what this guy has to say about how I've chosen to spend my life. :P
I’m currently also a stay at home dad. The amount of comments and jokes I get is ridiculous. But when my wife was the stay at home parent everyone praised it and didn’t think twice.
Religious people are stupid.
@@gnomishviking3013 You are doing a great job ! If a lot of men were truthful with themselves, I am pretty sure they would like to do this...sadly, they are following a script that has been dictated to them.......not independent thinkers....
@ReynardTheFox-dm8py I think you're right. I bet most dads would prefer to spend the first few years, at minimum, being home with their kids. Some might want it to be together with their partner and some might prefer to do it as a more solo thing. It sucks that most of them are pressured into missing all that time with their family. It's high time we tear down the structure we have and put a healthier one in place.
I know this video didn't premiere yet, but damn. Pastors really be out here saying the dumbest things, huh? 🤨
I just learned I live about 20 minutes from his church in Scottsdale. If I really hated myself I could see him live
Eugh, I hope you're never brought down that low by life, lol ;-)
I would go to be an azzhole. I don't recommend that for others tho.
My father is a conservative Christian and raised me as a stay at home father. He's disabled with cerebral palsy and chronic pain from severe burns he sustained from a gas explosion when he was 18. He's also a former truck driver and almost certainly has done more actual blue collar work than Driscoll ever has. While there's a lot I don't see eye-to-eye with my father on now that I'm an adult I can still see how much work he put into raising me and my older brother, along with maintaining the house and handling the paperwork while my mother did the 9-to-5. Apart from the misogyny and hypocrisy in Driscoll's rambling it also reeks of ableism, leaving no room for fathers with disabilities like mine.
Thank you for this! I hear a lot of ableism in the toxic messages from the conservative Christian community.
I remember being really into Mark Driscol around 2007 when Mars Hill was still a thing. I liked his brash style and unapologetic expression of faith. In hindsight it seems a little silly.
The reason I started to drift away from listening to him was his constant messaging that men should be the head of the household, should lead, should bring in the most money etc. I realised it was making me really depressed. I felt a huge pressure to be leading on everything with my wife (then girlfriend/fiance). I noticed how draining it was attempting to be that type of person and that wasn't who I was. While I could do all those things it was a constant fight to be that person.
The problem I noticed is that my wife is simply better at some things than me and vice versa so shoehorning people into conservative gender roles just leads to exhaustion.
I think it's safe to say this misplaced notion of gender roles probably does a lot of damage to people who, due to their faith, feel the need to conform regardless of ability.
My dad is a conservative christian and a stay at home dad. He’s the best at it to. 😊
I don't wanna be that guy... but I actually feel like Mark's wife needs a wellness check at home.
Some of these titles and videos are super concerning. "You need to forgive".
Drew giggling was priceless. In Japan is really common to be a stay-at-home dad.
Really? From all I've known and heard about Japan, it was the opposite, although changing recently. I listened to a podcast by a Chinese sociologist who lives in Japan and she said that one change she's noticed over the years is that before it was really uncommon to see a man with kids out and about, men were mostly supposed to work long days, and even if a family was out together, it's the wife who'd be carrying the kids etc. Whereas now you actually see many more men doing shopping with their kids etc. But I was still under the impression that women are still sort of expected to be the nurturers and even quit their jobs when they get a child, so what you're saying is very interesting to hear (I guess there must be a big societal change these days, what with the economy being different than in the 90s and the low birth rate etc.)
A common trend I see with Driscoll is that he constantly like to use broad strokes to categorize a lot. As some have already mentioned, not all men are capable of working. Not everyone's life plays out the same yet he seems to think one size fits all when I've never seen a solution where this actually works.
No wonder he is such a terrible pastor, his job is cursed 😂😂😂😂
Mark Driscoll: all hat, no cattle.
This guy's video was only bearable because I kept on imagining "stay at home clowns". I kept thinking about how difficult it must have been for the clowning industry during the pandemic. All those children's birthday parties on zoom! How terrifying!
My brother is diagnosed with schizophrenia for at least 10 years, and because of his illness it's very difficult for him to have a job or find a job. Last year he also tried to commit a suicide (he was convinced that all people just want him to suffer). Luckily he failed but he ended up with multiple fractures, he is still recovering. We are just surprised that he survived and without ending up on wheal chair (he jumped of 7th floor. He fell on plastic roof above the entrance and that apparently saved his life).
Listening to Mark talking about men's worth being in their work and nothing else sounds to me like a perfect recipe for suicide. I take this very very personally. Not everybody can work or find a job. I agree that we shouldn't be lazy but there are more ways to be useful to society and God then work.
Your family situation is the exception.
In stayed home with my daughter for her first 3+ years. Our bond now is light-years stronger than it would have been. Plus, because I wasn't wasting my life punching the clock I was able to launch my business and now I'm self employed. Staying home with my daughter was the best thing I ever did.
It's hard to even imagine to comprehend the amount of insecurity that must amass in this guy's following-and who are now searching for obviously toxic solutions for their feellings...
You guys are always insightful, your takes how privilege and scamming factor into the acquisition of wealth, and the difficulty and value of being a stay at home parent are spot on, thanks for all of the work you do, getting good info out there in opposition to their horrible grifter narratives is of great importance.
I recently watched a video essay that addressed the objectification of men as tools of either labor or violence and it was honestly eye opening. The oppression and objectification of men goes hand in hand with the oppression and objectification of women in a society purely interested in the capital they can extract from its people.
Considering the feudalist system that the church supported, it seems like the system is set up to instill fear and conformity in the peasants subjugated by the feudal system.
That sounds interesting, what was it called?
All I am hearing from him is "woe is me, my life is sooooo hard" 🙄
What an ass.
What a lot of people don't realize is that the Protestant Work Ethic makes people more exploitatble for employers.
8:23 (assuming he’s speaking to stay at home dads in this clip and not, like, single unemployed men) it says a lot about his misunderstanding of the role of a stay at home parent if he thinks being a stay at home parent isn’t “work.” Ask an average stay at home mom what her day looks like and I dare anyone to claim it’s not hard work. Maybe this gets addressed later but to me it just speaks volumes about how poorly they understand or accurately value to labor of roles traditionally given to women and I couldn’t help but mention it.
I can assure you the time I spent in the Navy I definitely got paid to take a nap or play video games or read a book. Lol
Pretty sure parenting is more productive work than spewing hate from a pulpit week after week.
Drew playing with the dog was absolutely precious
Drew is a fucking clown…just like trump🌛🌕🌜
man, people really do think that throughout history women have just been sitting at home, watching soaps, gossiping and playing with babies, huh?
I was a man until I retired. I had an easy job. I would program a CNC machine and make parts. My last job I made the same part for over a year so there was no programing involved. Every 20 minutes I would change the part and push the "START" button then read newspapers, magazines and play on my computer for 20 minutes. Now I'm 80 years old and have ED so I guess God's punishing me for retiring. Fortunately Satan invented Viagra.
Love you guys. Glad to see you both looking happy and healthy.
my dad… a pastor… worked from home and was essentially a stay at home dad while my mom worked outside the home when i was in middle and high school. he used to cook dinner every night and make fresh bread at least a nice a week
From Matthew 6, 25-33:
25 Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink,[a] or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 And which of you by worrying can add a single hour to your span of life?[b] 28 And why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin, 29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not clothed like one of these. 30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you-you of little faith? 31 Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear?’ 32 For it is the gentiles who seek all these things, and indeed your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God[c] and his[d] righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.
I guess JC doesn’t want us to work😂
I can’t believe I ever liked Mark Driscoll. I’m so glad I left evangelicalism
This guy is a great advert for misery and a lack of self worth.
This is the problem with church and religion....people. People cannot separate themselves and their own issues and personal preferences from anything so even when given doctrine to follow, they are going to twist it in some way to suit their own purposes and preferences. This why there are so many different churches with different beliefs... all based on who's preaching and interpreting it. So if pastor is a dude-bro hopped up on redpill and toxic masculinity, thius will be his take and he will try to twist it with the bible to make his beliefs God's word...
“Dude bro hopped up on redpill” 😂😂🎯
In any other American subculture mark would have been 100% cancelled
For all Mark Driscoll's cosplaying as a blue collar worker, he clearly has never done any kind of manual labor or picked up any tools in his life. I'll bet his hands are silky smooth and his nails are perfectly manicured.
Mark Driscoll out here loudly telling everyone he doesn't think he's a real man.
A friend of mine had a stay-at-home dad while growing up (he wasn't jobless, he worked, but focused mainly on his son=my friend) and this dad is one of the most amazing and extraordinary people that I've ever met. So wise, and yet so kind and aware of the worldly issues. I met this friend when we were about 15 and we became besties along with the other people (we have a specific friend group and a group chat), so I visit him quite often and his dad is basically like my other friend haha, but he's still a gentleman!
PS: Your channel is one of my favs out there, I truly enjoy listening to you guys! Sending much love!❤
(at about 15 mins in) my stepdad has a similar mindset as this guy and if he was actually super involved in religion the way my mom is he'd prob be all about this guy. and i can confirm. "chores" for me as a kid was basically having to clean the entire house top to bottom every weekend and do at least 3 chores after school, but also being told "i'm never going to notice the ones you did do, only the one's you didn't" so effectively no matter how hard i worked at any of the chores there would always be something else that didn't get done that i could be yelled at for. and my brother having adhd was no acknowledged and he was frequently told to "man up" bc that would help him remember to take the trash out somehow 😒 nothing was ever enough and thats what they taught me, and it turns out that actually the real world isn't even like that. they told me i was so bad at housework and cooking that i'd never make it in the real world but honestly even my managers in retail were nicer to me sometimes.
so yeah basically this protestant work ethic is one of the worst and most damaging things i was taught growing up. i'm disabled now, the guilt over not being able to do enough for my partner can be crushing sometimes.
oh yeah, i can't forget. while my stepdad "taught" me this by screaming at me and saying explicitely nothing will ever be good enough, my mom modelled this by her own actions. reading books is "lazy" and she likes to read but she can't do it or else she feels like she wasted all her time. reading was ONLY for vacation. (somehow hours of tv in the evening was ok though 😅) so yeah its not healthy for ANYONE. i can only speak for how it affected me but they (my parents) did in fact use many insults to my brother to "motivate" him to get stuff done, such as man up or telling him he's weak or a crybaby. it makes me sad but it also makes me proud of him bc he did not internalize that and recognized it as abusive before i ever did. he is a good person ❤
Darn, feel ya, I was abused the same way.
I guarantee you Driscoll belittles people who work jobs he deems unworthy of respect. Yet he turns around and says ALL jobs are hard.
I was raised by a stay-at-home dad who did the cleaning and brought us to soccer practice. Bizarre to me that anyone thinks gender should have any influence when it comes to loving and raising your kids.
20:15 it's depressing how almost everyone agrees that work is bad, work is too much, pay is not high enough compared to how much time and effort you put into your job (or, in Driscoll's words, “cursed“)....... yet if you tell them “see, capitalism is bad‘, they go bananas and think you want to take away their hard earned money.
No, we don't. We want you (and everyone else) to have enough money to live a comfortable life, fulfill your dreams, and choose work that is meaningful to you & your community WITHOUT having to work this hard. You deserve a decent amount of money each month not because you self-sacrifice for your boss, but because you, as a human being, deserve a good life. That's the future the left wants - for you too.
Hardly anyone ever truly *enjoys* being overworked, even those who are convinced that this is the right thing to do.
Mark does everything subconsciously to win approval from his dad.
“You need to work…” means “i need your money so work for me”…
”you cannot sit around and pontificate…” means “that is my job for you…and you cannot do it cause then you wouldn’t be working…to provide for me”
Yo, anthropologist here. Had to comment about cgildren being put to work. Children have been "working" since prehistoric times for survival reasons. Parents/hunting and gathering groups would teach their kids how to make and use tools early because that's what they needed to know to live. The sooner their children learned these skills, the sooner they could help hunt/gather/take care of the group and increase chances of survival. This trend continued through antiquity all the way through the Victorian Era. Childhood was viewed through a very different lens in the past and our current view of letting children enjoy their childhood is very recent. This pastor doesn't know what the fuck he's talking abput and is clearly pushing his agenda on toxic masculinity and misogyny.
It is so sad that Mark is LARPing as a working man to take advantage of people who would be better off never coming into contact with him, and they keep falling for it.
He says there's no easy job... pretty sure being a hate-preacher is pretty low-effort.
I'm pretty sure some people have been paid to take naps for medical research... and what do you do for your money when you get paid for owning things that others need to create wealth for themselves by working like startup capital, land, machine resources.? Most people who own major companies do no more than napping for their money.
2:50 Smoothest segue ever❤
10:56 God’s curse “from dust you are and to dust you shall return” doesn’t seem to promise any kind of after life.
I’m so glad this channel is uploading a lot lately.
I have so much more planned for the near future!