Let’s just avoid the word DECONSTRUCTION Just say “I am learning to THINK,” Or “I am taking the blinders off,” Or “I am searching for TRUTH,” Or “I am finding out why there are so many wars,” Or “I am finding out why children can’t get along with their parents or with each other?” Or “I am finding out why there are so many religions.” 💭💭💭
Are you seeing a Christian counselor? There are definitely some great ones (I've met and been helped by a few, two of whom had partly "deconstructed" themselves) but the pastoral counseling scene is a minefield. I've run in circles with people who still believe in Satanic ritual abuse or who specialize in "helping believers deal with unwanted same sex attraction." 🫤
I found the best gem at 48:20: She said "When your precious teenager calls you and says 'I am deconstructing, my youth pastor was abusive to me...'" The next thing out of her mouth should have been that something has to be done about that abusive youth pastor, but she had only her warfare against deconstruction in her mind.
That got me too! Sorry but that gets me so angry. Christians are utterly useless at any kind of problem solving. Because either they're only capable of praying for solutions and never take action to do anything themselves, or the problem makes them question the system so they'd rather sweep it under the rug and attack the person who's concerned and deconstructing for their own moral reasons. Anyone who questions the faith is an enemy.
but what if your scrutiny is just to tell Christians to change their religion to conform to the current political religion that controls everything. Christians should conform to corporate ESG scores? or they don't withstand scrutiny?
Easier said than done. It goes beyond philosophical realm into reality by practicality. Anyone can claim they're Christian but who's know what will play out; even Peter denied Christ three times. More often people didn't even understand or know what they actually believe in. It's fun and game to poke into other people's faith. Are you ready for stand trial?
53 min in - when politics falls from 'we disagree about what is best for our country' to 'the other pov is demonic' then we are in such scary territory
Then they turn around and claim they're being persecuted and not tolerated "just for their beliefs". Without really saying what their beliefs are. Without saying their beliefs are that everyone who disagrees with them are demons or are being controlled by demons.
@@terrencelockett4072 Yes. They must feel like they're being persecuted for their beliefs because that's one of their cherry picked verses. When they can twist the world around enough to really believe suffer for their religious beliefs in this country which is setup to benefit them, they are capable of convincing themselves of basically anything that floats around their echo chamber without even questioning whether it's real or not. I think that their religion works in much the same way, believe what the leaders say just because the leaders say it. Peace 💚
My christian faith was the most important thing to me and I took my religion very seriously. Its wrong of them deny our faith as having not been real. I didnt deconstruct and become an atheist because I wanted to, I did so because I wanted to know the truth. It was so painful and confsing, and I spent a year suffering that. But it lead me here. Free of mind and happier than Ive ever been,
It's so disgusting when we're dismissed. I was on fire for Jesus. My faith was my bedrock. Then I began asking myself a simply quwstion which I ask most Christians/theists I encounter today: Do you care whether the things you believe are true? And I've realized, many Christians DON'T. Truth is that which comports to reality. But xtians will say: Jesus is the way, THE TRUTH, and the light. If you believe the latter, you are baatardizing and weaponizing the usage of the word "truth" against yourself, and living in delusion.
This sounds so familiar! It was horrible at first. Feels like your whole world is falling down. And then, slowly, you realize that not having your actions and thoughts controlled is so much better. Plus, I feel like life has more meaning when it’s finite.
Christians don't understand that there is a grief process to deconstructing and/or deconverting and sometimes that anger is a part of that grief. It's not because we never believed in the first place, it's because we believed so deeply. We have to come to terms with how much of our identity was wrapped up in that belief. But not all of us stay in that grief place forever. You can find peace and joy in view the world through new eyes. You can find your own meaning in life and it's beautiful.
Hearing these people refer to evangelicalism as "classical Christianity" should piss off anybody who knows anything about church history. It might be the most infuriating thing about this video to me. If you went to any Christian even five hundred years ago and showed them an American evangelical church they would not recognize it and they probably wouldn't even acknowledge it as "true Christianity."
My evangelical mother will tell you with her whole chest that the “American founding fathers” were christians in the same sense that she is. Never mind that even if that were true, it’s nothing to be proud of. And it doesn’t matter how demonstrably untrue it is, she just refuses to hear it.
Yeah I genuinely don't consider American Christians as Christian at this point, their belief system is laughable and every day they stray further from the bible despite their supposedly literal interpretations.
Hell, take any Evangelical to a Traditionalist Catholic church still doing the Tridentine Mass in the original Latin and they'll be screaming about everything being Satanic faster than if you took them to the nearest library.
@@JewandGreekor because she's not getting money from her husband like that, she has to grift through apologetics just like every other evangelical apologist. 🤷♂️
After being christian for 45 years. I have made a very educated decision and tore down the castle I constructed known as christianity. I will not build anything in its place. I am done with lies.
When I was a believed I was willing to go to crazy lengths and all kind of intellectual dishonesty to keep believing. I liked to think of my belief as a pile driven foundation. I was willing to use solipsism and the idea that we can't really know anything, to claim everything is absurd. Christianity is absurd, but so is that fact that I can't prove reality is even real. I eventually came to realize my mental gymnastics were pointless. That these tricks did nothing to actually support the belief, and that they were only a shield from the reality I had no reason to believe. I had to face, why add lots of unknown complexity to an already very complex universe, and place most of the importance on the unknown. It made no sense.
@@SamArco132 Maybe you never genuinely discovered a reason to believe. And maybe none of your questions were genuinely answered. So now you are in a wilderness of your own making
@@stephenhowe4107 Right now you are coming off as extremely condescending, so I'll be blunt The bible contains stories. Different denominations interpret the stories differently. I don't have to believe the stories or any of the interpretations. It's great. I apply the same method to all myths and conspiracy theories. I don't have to believe any of them. I don't have spend time trying to square them away in my head. All I need to do is shrug and move along.
Good for you! Now you can really find out who you are. It's a never ending journey. I like this saying; How do you know who you are, if you don't know how you got here? And how do you know where you are going, if you don't know who you are?
100%! It’s so important to reevaluate what matters and filter out what doesn’t resonate anymore. There’s an excellent book, called Design the Life you Love, by Ayse Birsel, an industrial designer who teaches how to use her design process on your most important project: your life! Her process is Deconstruction:Reconstruction, or De:Re, as she refers to it. All deconstruction is in the design process, is taking something apart so you can see all the parts and pieces. Anyone who is wary of anyone looking at all the parts, is not wanting someone to see everything clearly. All the more reason to deconstruct in my opinion! Also highly recommend the book, it was pivotal in my life!
I worked for a Christian nonprofit that has a radio show/podcast, and Alisa Childers came on as a guest to talk about deconstruction. I was secretly deconstructing at the time, and was so taken aback by the calloused way she described why and how people deconstruct their faith. I was sat in the background of that Zoom call feeling like a worthless, God-hating piece of trash all because I wanted to leave Evangelicalism. I left that nonprofit shortly after, and am still healing from hateful and harmful theology they uphold to this day. Love your guys' content, keep it up!
Modern Evilgelicalism is not "christianity" its Christian Nationalism. When I saw the "christians" supporting the torture of children in cages at the border, you are not "christian" you are evil. Jesus would have been down their tearing down those walls in an uncontrollable rage. After watching that atrocity for over a year, it was obvious that the church had stopped teaching the word of jesus for decades.
When seeking truth it's best to leave our feelings behind. Yes, in the heat of the moment and especially if you're already in a vulnerable situation we all can easily feel personally attacked and hurt. However we shouldn't allow our feelings, no matter how powerful they are, to make final decisions for us. I don't watch Alisa, but I remember four-five years ago coming across a video of hers ( don't remember the title or what it was exactly about), and I felt upset and attacked by what she said in it. At the time, I would say that my beliefs were probably more align with Progressive Christianity than anything else. However, after cooling off, I decided to objectively look into validity of her words. I didn't watch more of her videos, but I started getting involved in Christian Apologetics and as much as possible objectively looking into Christianity and investigating it and my own beliefs. To my surprise I ended up reading the Bible more than before, praying more, and becoming what some may call it a conservative Christian. Politically I'm not a Conservative, I'm still a Liberal ( I live in Canada, so two leading parties are Liberals and Conservatives, not Democrats and Republicans like in the US).
I'm currently deconstructing and the spark of my deconstruction was actually digging deeper into the Bible. The more I studied, the more I saw things that did not connect. And I hate the argument that if you deconstruct you were never a real Christian. I don't want to lose my faith. I don't want to leave it, but at the same time I can't logically hold to it because the thing used to build the faith is the thing that is falling apart for me. I just can't maintain the cognitive dissonance any more.
I just started the vid but I think they’re going to miss the fact that (I’d guess) most people don’t begin deconstructing on purpose. It may become purposeful as time goes on, but (myself included) I’d venture to guess a lot of people are just following the path of critical thinking or dealing with trauma caused by religion or maybe getting out of their families houses/control and beginning to think for themselves.. they wind up deconstructing but it’s from a natural process (like yours)- not because they were looking for a way out of their faith.
That's becasue the moment people saw that faith could be used to manipulate people and gain power, they used it to do just that, if that meant ripping out pages or adding new stuff in, so be it... The Bible is heavily allegory, and not necessarily logical. But the main themes are good, its the stuff man clearly added to suit their preferences and limited scope and understanding of the world that are the most problematic... The great thing is that a part that comes through loud and clear is that people get to have personal relationships with God, no middleman or rigid religion is really necessary...
When people ask me how I can turn my back on God, I tell them that I'm not. I'm turning my back on people who claim to be speaking on God's behalf and provide no evidence for it. That includes all of the biblical authors, all clerics, and you.
I started deconstructing my faith last summer and quit my church home group in November. The leader is an ex-pastor who still fancies himself as a shepherd. He accused me of never being born-again, having alot of head knowledge, but no "heart knowledge" and just wanting to sin. The dude is nosy and manipulative. So glad to be free of his fake love. Same with the rest of the members. They hug one another and claim to love one another, but once you disagree with their belief system, they consider you an apostate, reprobate and enemy. From love to hate in 1 second flat. Completely conditional. So ugly.
As a Christian who has long since Deconstructed, dig into it. Study the context of the Bible and the time it was written (and then translated) but most importantly find people who support you no matter where your journey takes you. You may end up atheist, agnostic or even Christian. It doesn't matter, you are awesome for taking this journey and I have faith in you. It is a hard road, but it is important.
I can't count the number of times growing up that I was told by my mother and many members of the church around me that I think too much and that too much "worldly knowledge is dangerous." I couldn't see that massive red flag for what it was at the time. Truth withstands scrutiny. If you're afraid that too much learning will lead you away from a belief, then you don't have the truth.
I understand feeling lied to about God, and that it feels like people use God for their own reasons, but that doesn't mean God isn't real. I've been reading the Bible, for myself, and I'm amazed at how EVERYONE (including myself) gets it wrong. Read the bible (not just one of them, but the original texts, themselves, as) for yourself and come up with your own conclusion. I have nothing but love for everyone and trying to help them see the truth. As the bible says love rejoices in truth and not wrongdoing, along with it's patient and kind.
@@optillian4182 No it isn't. Plus, it's more of them being brainwashed into thinking they were indoctrinated. When you start rejecting basic Christian principles, you're not overcoming indoctrination. You're being indoctrinated.
@@optillian4182 yes... yes it is. And once they get to overcome their de-indoctrination they will know even more about who they really are. Amen. That's what it's all about. No pain... No gains. Sadly. 😊
@@finchborat they do... unfortunately most people have misplaced outage, so de-construction becomes necessary. We must all needs do it in our own way, for our own needs, only then can we snatch the pebbles. Christians are just people, just like you or me, only... Different... Just like you and me... People. They need your help just as much as you need theirs. That's truth. 😊
Really? I would like to know if you are in the USA. Because most Christianity in the the USA is non-normal. So you might find yourself in the position where you reject genuine Christianity because you have been put off by caricature Christianity in the USA.
@@1tsrhodes: Well there are some exceptions, but in general, the children of USA evangelicals are leaving Christianity in droves. The country seems to have forgotten Francis Schaeffer (and he was American). Really all of this is due to 2 movements in the 1950's which have knocked the stuffing out of young people: The Postmodernists (Michel Foucault, Richard Rorty, Jacques Derrida (where we get the concept of deconstruction from) Progressivism from The Frankfurt School of Thought (Herbert Marcuse, Erich Fromm, Max Horkheimer, Theodore Adorno). But deconstruction, certainly for the Bible, really started in 1880 where German Theologians started questioning what could we be certain about.
@@stephenhowe4107 I'm in the USA, and back in the late 60s I was put off by a very devout and angry resentful christian member of the Navigators who astonished me with his hateful attitude toward all the normal average people around the world who were not brought up from infancy on his particular set of religious beliefs. Normal? Caricature? It's christianity. It's one set of religious beliefs, sometimes interpreted in many different ways. One can also read Greek or Mesopotamian mythology and interpret it in different ways. --- By the way, thanks go out to Leroy Jacobsen for helping me on my way!
@@stephenhowe4107the genuine? The murder, rape incest that god condones? That one? Or do you cherry pick that stuff out like in you life? Bad stuff happens to you ,do you thank him? You, never like so many "believers" never read "book" or you would know better! Did you have to read on how to BREATHE? SO little sly boy would need a book? And humans to write it? Like the telephone game? Is that why so many different denominationscant agree on what's, what? Old testicle, why a new testicle? Just believe what your told like a zombie? You're not a kid anymore!
The way she described wanting to go to war with a teenager who disclosed abuse from a preacher and wanted protection🤢 like the teen is the demon in this scenario??? disgusting
It's not surprising from Childers. She has also stated in a video with Clay Jones that children who are s3xually abused are better off brutally stabbed to death than receive care, protection and love as she believes s3xually abused children will "infect" innocent children with their s3xual trauma and knowledge.
To be fair to her, she wasn't talking about wanting to go to war with the teenager, or argue with them or anything - she said go to war by showing compassion and kindness to that person. Although I agree that the framing of it is gross. I skipped most of it so I'm not sure what exactly she thinks she is fighting a war against by being kind to an abused teenager, but I'm guessing it's Satan/demonic forces bent on breaking down the church using predators within churches or something along those lines. In any case, she was never talking about attacking or arguing with the teenager.
@jaylynn8630 Did she say that? That would be unusual ime. I thought she was talking about battling the demons causing the teen to act in ways that caused the pastor to stumble ie abuse a child. Ime the church ladies always blame the child/teen/woman for being a temptation. Never been to a church where an abuser was held accountable.
the way my blood BOILS when sean and other christians say people who deconstruct and leave the faith were never *real* christians based on his “personal experience”. what experience ??? has sean personally experienced leaving the faith???
Same here - I was raised as a fundamentalist Christian and believed every word I was taught, and deconstructing was extremely painful and has left a lot of emotional scars. to hear that i “wasn’t a _real_ Christian” is always infuriating
@@DanSoloha It's like they have to say it as a defense mechanism. They feel, "Real Christians would never change their beliefs because they were already right, so anyone that changes their beliefs wasn't doing it right!" Otherwise, they would have to confront the fact that someone could do everything right and still arrive at the conclusion that their beliefs have changed. That would mean their beliefs are also subject to change, which is too threatening to accept.
@@angelamaryquitecontrary4609 exactly right - “no _true_ Christian would ever abandon the faith and their Savior!” even typing it out makes me a little angry lol
The irony is I grew up in christianity being taught the likes of Childers, Sean and Tim aren't real christians either as they are protestants, ie NOT following historical christianity.
totally. while i can understand the desire to have "a word" aligned with a deconstructive process that centres the playing field in biblical thought/reclamation, it's pretty transparent to me that this argument isn't about drawing an ideological difference from nonbelievers--it's about the word "deconstruction" itself being treated like a gateway drug RE: her mention of hashtag, all the media/online communities using it, etc. it's not a definitional disagreement, it's a PR stopgap to lessen exposure.
The part when you were talking about Christians accusing non Christians of being under demonic influence really hit home. When I say something my mom doesn't like (she's a Christian and I've deconstructed), she says that Satan is whispering in my ear and that Satan and demons are speaking through me
My grandmother was deeply religious (in the way I’d consider truly Christian. No thinking less of those who weren’t, no pushing her religion on anyone, deeply loving of all people, deep,y interested in everyone’s story and would listen, believed in helping and supporting ppl etc) and at her funeral, an evangelical acquaintance told my aunt, her daughter, that she would never see her mother again if she didn’t accept Jesus into her heart… apart from being thoroughly disgusted by this statement for the content itself, I was and am disgusted that they were saying such a disgusting thing in my grandmother’s name when she did not believe that and would not have accepted them saying that in front of her!!!!
@@ellim1585 I'm so sorry that happened to you. People who do that are so insensitive and they don't even realize it. I don't know how they don't realize it. Unfortunately it's super common to say that when people die though. When I was in high school, a friend of mine died and at his funeral (which was full of his family and like half of our high school) the preacher leading the funeral told everyone that if we ever want to see him again then we need to accept Jesus as our savior. My friends mom was upset that he said that at her son's funeral, even though she was a Christian herself she could see how messed up that was. I don't know how other Christians can't see it too
Hi. Have plenty of drinks and snacks on hand when doing that‼️😬 Couldn't god edit that down to a more manageable size and get his universal, astronomical points across⁉️😂🤣😬
@@JohnWaalandfun fact is the Bible does not even compare with how much information is there about how our universe actually works. Have you seen a complete physics manual? 😂😂😂 And it's only physics! Add to that every science there is
I read almost the entire Bible 40 years ago and came to the conclusion that it doesn’t make any sense, that’s probably why churches created a priesthood and never wanted the faithful to read it.
@@purple66666 Physics don't even compare to God, it is constantly changing, lacking critical information, and is relative to our tiny little perception here on a little grain of sand.
All religious people would vote to end their own human and civil rights if given the chance. They have no clue as to why a nation governed by secular law is so important to have.
I call them Evilgelicals, or Christian Nationalists.. and fun fact, the word Nazi is short for the german word for Nationalist.. so Christian Nazi isnt to far from accurate.
“Deconstructionists were never in the faith” I literally went against my parents wishes to convert to Catholicism and take catechism classes which take in some parishes up to a year and a half of mandatory mass and catechismal classes. And I still ended up deconstructing and becoming an atheist. Shout out to Joan of Arc for making me rethink about the institution of religion
Agreed, you should never paint a group with a a broad brush. Every person's story is different. That being said, I am one of those who was never really in the faith, which for me made my deconstruction fairly easy. But again, everyone's journey is different.
@@stylesandsmarts I don't know your story so I can't possibly know if you were "never really in the faith," but I wanted to share a bit about my experience in case it resonates with you or anyone else reading the comments. For me, my deconstruction/deconversion also felt "fairly easy" and didn't look like many people's journeys. I've heard many people share about how it was a painful and confusing process/journey that sometimes took many years and that is the complete opposite of my journey, which at times made me question whether I was "really in the faith/a true believer" (I was). Unlike most of the people Sean says he's talked to that can't even tell him when they became a christian, I could. I've shared my "testimony" in church and small groups plenty of times. I could tell you when "I gave my life to christ," I can tell you when I got baptized, I could tell you about my prayer life, or how for over a year I dedicated an entire day once a week to just fast, pray, & do a deep bible study. I could tell you how I listened to sermons and talks from christian leaders for hours each week, how I tried to restrict myself from enjoying certain things or types of media cause of the "sinful" content, how I attended church every Sunday and Saturday nights (when they started doing those), how I tithed every paycheck (even if I couldn't actually afford to) and sometimes gave an offering on top of my 10%, how I attended small groups and bible studies every week, and always volunteered to help in the church office with their admin stuff or outreach efforts. I was the one who got my younger brother involved in the church (which I now regret), I helped lead bible studies, I served on the children's ministry team, I evangelized to students on my college campus, there are people I helped bring into this religion (which I again now regret) who are still a part of it, and even my mom used to come to me for spiritual guidance about the bible and what it says. At one point, I almost went into seminary to become a "christian counselor" and the only reason I didn't was because the government program funding my education at the time wouldn't pay for it and the court (yes I did take them to court to appeal their decision) sided with the program (and now I'm glad they did), though if this had happened today I probably would've won the court decision with how religious our system is becoming (which is terrible). I even wrote and almost published a christian book called "Renew Your Mind" based on the verse in Romans 12:2 ("do not be conformed to the patterns of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind...."). The book talks about different areas of our life and how we can apply scripture to "renew our minds" in those areas. I had even already paid to have the book professionally edited, but thankfully, I started deconstructing a few months before I had planned to publish the book, so I never published it. I say all this because while I do know now that my faith was always sincere and I was a "true/real believer" (I'd never do even half of all of that if I didn't truly believe it), there was a time when I questioned if my faith was "real" because my deconstruction/deconversion looked relatively "easy" (and quick) compared to others. While others talked about the pain, suffering, and confusion they went through during their deconstruction, the overwhelming emotion I experienced was RELIEF. I will say there was anger and grief as well for being (unintentionally) lied to my whole life, but the main feeling I had was relief. Relief that I didn't have to continue sacrificing who I am and what I want out to life to become what god "called me to be" or to follow "his will/plans" for my life, relief that I didn't have to worry about making a mistake or being wrong about what I "heard" god tell me or that what I "heard" was actually just myself or the "devil" not god speaking, relief that I didn't have to carry around the guilt and shame I had anytime I "sinned" or had an "impure thought," relief that I did not have to forgive someone who hurt me just cause it's what "god calls/wants us to do," relief that I'm not just a "sinner whose good deeds are like filthy rags to a perfect, just god," 🙄 relief that I don't have to try to make sense of a book that is filled with contradictions & confusing statements (even though it says god is NOT the author of confusion yet he supposedly wrote the bible which also says that he DOES cause confusion at times. Make it make sense 🤷🏽♀). Also, after deconverting there's relief that I don't have to follow the rules of an abusive, narcissistic, sociopath (aka the biblical god). So all this to say that even if someone's deconstruction journey doesn't involve a lot of pain or confusion or looks "fairly easy," that doesn't mean they weren't a "true/real believer" or sincere in their faith. Also, I should mention that I have ADHD and have spent most of my life masking my neurodivergence (which means I learned from a young age how to look/act like neurotypical people and hide my neurodivergence in order to fit in/belong, though this is all done subconsciously so I didn't even know what I was doing is called masking till much later) and as a christian I did a lot of masking and anyone who's neurodivergent will tell you that it's EXHAUSTING having to mask all the time. So leaving christianity finally allowed me to unmask a bit, which just added to my feeling of relief when I left. Just another point to consider for anyone reading this who's also neurodivergent and has a different experience than most people who deconstruct. Also, sorry about the long-winded reply, I tend to ramble a lot. 😅
Same. I grew up Evangelical Christian and was disowned by my family for converting to Mormonism which is incredibly involved and a huge time and effort commitment. Yet I still ended up an atheist
Excellent video! Thank you. I’m an ex-evangelical fundamentalist pastor. My deconstruction led to a full blown de-conversion. I lost everything after 35 years and had to reconstruct my entire life. One of the realizations that I had was the way in which evangelicals dismiss you while simultaneously claiming that they accept you for who you are and where you are in your journey. Like the faith itself, they are a walking contradiction.
I empathize with you…I had something similar happen to me with my former church community when I became self-aware that I was autistic at 37 years old. They were the only people who *didn’t* accept me for who I am. But I left Evangelicalism and still have retained my faith and theism. My problem is solely with people using Christianity as a screen from being accountable. I still love Scripture too…but I’m definitely more in Ecclesiastes mindset nowadays.
I stopped going to church when I realized I didn't want to be around other Christians anymore. I read the entire New Testament and what stayed with me the most was when Jesus talked about the 10 Commandments and said "Above all of these, love one another." But then I see pastors talking about spiritual warfare and different groups of people are sinners just for being themselves (isn't that the way God made them?) and we should do everything possible to stay away from them, but also love the sinner -- hate the sin. And the message that all you have to do to be a Christian is accept Jesus as your Savior. But after you do that you have to show everyone else that you're a Christian by saying the right words, staying away from the sinners, voting the right way, listening to the right music and don't let anyone in your family have the wrong kind of problems that can't just be prayed away. There's all kinds of ways to win and lose in the holier-than-thou olympics. And what Christians seem to believe is the most important part of being a Christian is going to the right church. Good Christians know that Catholics aren't Christians, they're too superstitious and they believe a lot of things that aren't in the Bible so stay away from Catholics and also Mormons because they follow a false prophet, and Jehovah's Witnesses are practically atheists, and this other church speaks in tongues, and that church doesn't baptize people the right way, and any church where the pastor wears a robe -- unless he's in the choir -- stay away from those churches and the people in them. And you might as well buy a one way ticket to hell if you go to a church that accepts just anyone like female pastors or gay pastors or Unitarians, but by the way, did we mention that our church welcomes everyone, just like Jesus did? I don't understand how anyone can develop a real relationship with God when they are surrounded by hypocrites and Pharisees every week. And the people that are so easily led astray by money and politics and charismatic people who write books to sell to Christians seem to be in the majority. It's a true miracle that there are still people who want to follow Christ and be more Christ-like. The best thing to do is stay away from people who won't accept you for who you are.
I have been in many different churches, and i have met 'christians' of many different personalities and character. But I'm old enough where I realize that doesn't prove or disprove the gospel. If I meet someone who claims to be a Christian but doesn't act as they should, i dont think christianity is not true, i just think that they are probably not a Christian. Also, i have met different people who hold to all kinds of views, walks of life, and from many different arenas. If people are hypocrites and contradict what they claim to hold to, then maybe they are fake and not genuine, and therefore have no bearing on the validity of what they say is true.
@@jameshoyt3692 My reasons for de-converting had nothing to do with the behavior of other Christians. I stopped believing because of the intellectual and moral absurdity of the claims.
When I realized I was not a “Christian” any more, I had never even heard of the word “deconstruction”. The first time I came across the process was from a TH-camr. I realized that I had been deconstructing the whole time. I was happy to know it was a thing, that I wasn’t alone, that my feelings were valid and I wasn’t alone in having to basically reestablish my entire belief system. Anyway, I am so grateful, so much more at peace and content knowing that I don’t have to live in a constant state of apology and that I don’t have to have all the answers because none of us do.
I felt very much the same. I deconverted from evangelical christianity years ago, but only since a year did i realize that what ive been doing is deconstructing. Being able to put a name to it helped my deconstruction process even more. Deconstruction doesn’t necessarily stop after deconversion.
The fear clearly on display here shows the christian level of horror and terror in so many people leaving their religion wholesale. You can always spot terrified christians, they immediately try to act super dismissive of the threat.
Yup. So disingenuous.. they do things like calling atheism a religion or say really naive tropes like “well you couldn’t be an atheist if you didn’t ACTUALLY believe in god” (that one kills me)
@@spa-peggymeatballs4861Yes, calling atheism a religion is really annoying. Or how they claim that instead of God we worship money, sex or whatever buzzword they most like to use. It's like they don't know what "religion" or "worship" means. But then again, none of this really matters. They can play their silly word games and pat themselves on the back for having "owned" us but it doesn't change the reality that they're adhering to a religion that doesn't make sense and an increasing number of people realizes that and are leaving. What's probably the most important factor for the decreasing percentage of Christians is that when you have two parents that are irreligious, or even have left Christianity and are rightfully pissed off about the nonsense they've been fed, these parents are unlikely to indoctrinate their children into religion. And once this chain of indoctrination is broken, it usually doesn't get reversed in significant numbers.
Eh I dunno, a lot of devout Christians are obsessed with the end of the world and think that Christianity declining would be evidence that the end times are near. For those who aren't obsessed with the apocalypse, they'll say that Christianity is growing in the developing world and that there is hope that the developed world can be re-evangelised in the future.
@@jensraab2902 I wonder how those people would react if you told them that if atheism is a religion, it's the fastest grwoing religion in the world. Should at least get the gear wheels spinning for a moment
For me, the greatest “threat” to my faith was learning about psychology and patterns of narcissistic abuse. A perfect god should not rely on abusive relationship dynamics to keep their followers in line. If the descriptions of god in the Bible are indeed accurate, it’s not surprising that god’s followers pass down trauma to others. The internalized hate towards self (and by that, I mean the belief that humanity is worthless compared to god) has nowhere to go. Going to church every week just to be reminded how you (and all humanity) is broken and fallen before being reminded that god loves you anyway is a textbook example of a trauma bond! That is why I deconstructed and ultimately became agnostic/atheist. I will never allow myself to engage in an abusive relationship dynamic again, regardless of whether that is with other humans or a “divine being”. This is also why so many believers can find themselves in abusive marriages, just as I did. In accepting a toxic relationship dynamic between god and themselves, believers are groomed to accept the same toxic dynamic from others, provided it can be justified with spirituality and scripture.
ive never been personally involved with Christianity, but i have been in an abusive relationship and that hits home. I've never really considered Christianity in that light before but heck it fits
YES! I'm so happy to see someone bring up narcissism and narcissistic abuse. You're right on point and this needs to be talked about more. A LOT more! Sadly, there are too many ignorant people who immediately reprimand you as an armchair psychologist if you bring it up, which is bullshit. Anyone can become familiar with the patterns of behavior seen in high level narcissists and recognize the effects of their abuse. There are also others who misunderstand or misuse the terminology. However, I believe the more education and awareness is brought to this topic, the less that will occur, so thank you for bringing it up in this forum. I've actually been an atheist my entire life. I've had no exposure to religious ideologies within my family and minimal amongst my friends. I'm incredibly grateful for that, but I unfortunately ended up being the daughter of an abusive, narcissistic mother who made me her scapegoat from the day I was born. My older brother is the golden child and became very abusive towards me as well. I've always been a very curious person, and I always seek to learn more about most everything. I eventually figured out what was happening to me with regards to the abuse and how it wasn't my fault. I also started exploring the atheist community and trying to understand why people believe in a god. The more I learned, the more I noticed the exact same dynamics at play in peoples' relationship with their god and their church. The same toxic behavioral patterns are there that are found in narcissistic abuse. It's the idea that you are born broken, and only complete and strict allegiance to a (suspiciously needy) god will fix you. And if you disobey, you suffer eternal torture. That's using fear to coerce and control. It's the same kind of conditional "love" that you have to earn by being perfectly obedient to the narcissist or else. You have to play along while in constant fear of the consequences if you don't. You become paranoid, self-sacrificing, and unwittingly end up dedicating all of your time to pleasing the narcissist while they give you nothing but mixed messages as to whether you're doing it right. You become a perfectionist and may develop maladaptive coping skills like substance abuse, reckless behavior, or self-harm. This is then used to prove how broken you really are. It just reinforces that mindset and makes you become more entrenched in the relationship. You feel lost and confused, but don't know why. You are robbed of your sense of self and the narcissist gaslights you into believing things that aren't true (like you are unworthy and undeserving). You're made to believe that you deserve the bad things that happen to you. If something goes wrong, well it must be your fault and so you also learn to punish yourself for these supposed transgressions. You're convinced to accept that you can't survive without god or your church in your life so you're afraid to leave. You also develop a fear rejection and abandonment. You hyper-focus on the few good crumbs of this existence to justify tolerating the bad. This is exactly why people stay in abusive relationships. This is why it's so hard for Christians (or others) to walk away from their god and their faith. You're trained to see the world in black & white or as good vs evil. You must suppress any attempts to find your true self or ask questions because that's supposedly "the devil leading you astray". That's also a manipulative fear tactic because of course god or the church doesn't want you asking questions or participating in normal human experiences like sex or college because that's a gateway to self discovery. Knowing yourself and your true worth robs them of their ability to maintain control over you. Growing your self-esteem makes you less pliable. They isolate you from the world and from those who would show you genuine love and acceptance. You learn to make excuses to justify a narcissist's bad behavior just as people continually defend the horrific things god does in the bible and the vile abuses that occur within the church, as well as the religious-laden legislation that actively harms others. And, of course, if something goes wrong, it's your fault. You're always to blame and must seek perpetual forgiveness in ways that don't even make sense. All the while, the abuser acts like a persecuted victim whenever their behavior is called out or they fail to get what they want. If you attempt any form of rejection, be prepared for uncontrolled rage and retribution. It feels like a no-win scenario. You become trauma bonded and codependent. You live with constant anxiety, self-doubt, and develop CPTSD. It's the SAME DAMN THING. It's narcissistic abuse only the narcissist is god and his enablers are the church and so many of the parasitic pastors and politicians within it who also share the same narcissistic behavior. But there is hope. People can break the cycle of abuse and recover. This forum is evidence of that and I'm excited for all the people who found their way here. *As for me, there are a couple of psychologists on youtube who specialize in narcissistic abuse that I've gotten a lot of help from: Dr. Ramani Durvasula and Dr. Les Carter. It's not oriented towards religious deconstruction, but I think anyone in this forum looking for help will find its content very relevant to their recovery. 🙂
Forgot to add a youtuber called "Theremin Trees". It's also about narcissistic abuse recovery, but there's also a heavy overlap with religion. Excellent resource.
28:24 I love when they say the quiet part out loud. People's voices have become more democratize and it scares them. People don't just leave quietly and hide from fear.
Well, christianity is diametrically opposed to free speech, especially speech that opposes it's ever changing and subjective beliefs. This is evdienced by the sheer brutality and savagery with which christians tortured and slaghtered anyone who challenged christian beliefs and authority.
My Sunday school question. "Did Moses take all 3 species of giraffe" ? I was 6 and was a big reader of animal books. The Sunday school teacher sent a note home with me that said. "Please explain to Ray that he should not ask questions in Sunday school class" " Deconstructed" on the spot!
I wonder how different things would have turned out for you if she'd known the standard creationist answer -- that they only needed to take one each "kind" -- or even dealt with your question with a modicum of grace and kindness. Maybe she did you a favor!
It’s interesting to me that deconstruction is being talked about as something that’s voluntary. For me, at least, it wasn’t. It happened because I couldn’t ignore the cherry picking, double speak and logical fallacies anymore, and once that happened, there was no going back even if I had wanted to. These people are acting like Regina George pulled up in her silver Lexus and said “get in, loser, we’re going deconstructing!”
It's been the same for me. Once I read the bible for myself, I was deeply disturbed by the things I read. All my life, I was not told the whole truth about God and Jesus. It shattered my world, but there is no way I can ignore it. I definitely wasn't looking to not be a Christian. It's just that there are things about God that bother me.
Hm, I dunno. I've heard from some people who, due to various factors like fear of losing their community, spent decades pushing aside those thoughts and choosing not to examine the nagging doubts. Like, not to call you out as though this is some sort of gothcha. But, "I couldn’t ignore the cherry picking, double speak and logical fallacies anymore" suggests that you were aware of the problems for a time and were choosing to ignore them. How much the decision to stop ignoring them was made by you and made for you is hard to say. Personally I don't think that any of our cognitive processes are completely independent of outside factors. Theoretically at least, you could have spent the rest of your life burying the questions. I'll just say that I don't think that the apologists are necessarily wrong to talk about it like it's voluntary. I do think that this is pretty damning for the apologist's position either way. If a person is feeling compelled to squash doubts and if apologists feel compelled to keep inventing excuses and strategies to get people to stop thinking about their doubts, I'm not sure that paints a particularly rosy picture of the belief system. Kinda just seems like an elaborate system of manipulation tactics.
Becoming an atheist was the most wonderful freeing experience of my entire life. Once I found out the truth about Christianity I walked away joyous knowing the absolute truth about the lies I was raised in. Free at last, free indeed.
“They weren’t fully in the faith”: ok well tell me why me and all my since deconstructed friends were literally willing to be martyrs for the faith? Was that not enough to be considered a true believer?
Oh my God right?? I was raised on the tales of Cassie Bernall and Rachel Scott since I was 6. I was *homeschooled,* and I was convinced that I was somehow going to be martyred for my faith. And I *wanted* to be a martyr at the time. I idolized it, I glorified it, because I was taught by the adults in my life that this is what I should strive for. Like get out of here, Christians, with this "you never believed" nonsense. The degree to which I believed was frightening.
Seriously, this. It wasn't until talking to a friend going through her deconstruction that this hit me, because she asked, "Why is it after Columbine, our youth groups, in different states, both asked us if we were willing to die for Jesus? You know, instead of, how we could prevent this from happening again?" Definitely raised and firmly believed enough to be in a youth group, proudly proclaiming a readiness to be martyred for Christ by a school shooter; if that's not 'fully in', I don't know what is.
Wanting to change a word reminds me so much of creationists. They come up with their own lingo, so that when you look it up online, you will only find christian websites defending creationism. Its very clever and also very dishonest.
Here are some more facts to ponder: Do we make decision based on "logic, critical thinking and reasoning" as popular belief? There is a tiny gland called amygdala that respond to fear and regulate emotion. 95% of decision-making is subconscious that driven by emotion. People with damaged amygdala unable to make decision if given options.
One of the biggest breakthroughs in my journey was when I heard somebody ask "What elements of your faith are outside the boundries of interrogation?" and having the realization that I was refusing to question certain things.
"Deconstruction is a meaningless word that can be twisted into meaning anything you want it to" and then in the same sentence, saying Postmodernism as if that means woke...
@TheIronDonkey of course 😂, when i was younger, all I listened to was these bands and artists and now I don't listen at all lol. Now I listen to sleep token
Well said, and...same. As soon as the video started with, "a former member of ZoeGirl" I groaned that a member of a group I was hooked on had gone off the deep end.
This is a bit of a tangent, but their rhetoric made me think of this. I'm an atheist who was raised very secular and grew up in a very culturally and religiously diverse environment (Hawaii). When I moved to the East Coast at 13 I was surrounded almost entirely by Christians. When people found out I not only was an atheist but had never believed in any god, the common reaction was confusion. Like meeting someone who just didn't have religion as part of their life was a completely foreign concept. This talk reminded me of that. I wonder if part of their fear of deconstruction is the idea that the person will have a hole in them where their faith was and it will have to be filled with something else, something bad. Like demons. There doesn't have to be a hole at all.
I think it’s worth mentioning that alisa is a PROFESSIONAL Christian. Even if she is being honest in her belief, there is a major bias built into her thinking. My personal opinion is that many many pastors get caught in this trap. It takes some of us a long time to see thru the lies (it did me) and if your income is based on those lies you find yourself economically trapped
That is a real problem, and the Freedom from Religion Foundation has a specific program to retrain clergy and get them jobs outside the religion so they can have the financial freedom to leave.
Philosophy student here - pretty sure Alisa means post STRUCTURALIST not post modernist. There is a difference, and post structuralism focuses on basically on moral subjectivism and believing there’s no objective truth that exists throughout all time/place. Foucault is a big scholar in this theory. I think Alisa just wants to sound smart and not use the dog whistle if “cultural Marxism”
Nah, that's the issue with dog whistles. They're being used so often in the open it's difficult to know who understands the reference and who thinks they understand it It's like with the globalist or lizard people conspiracy theories. They're very similar to antisemitic conspiracy theories. They're often used by antisemites to spread their ideas without the baggage of being called a nzi. As the conspiracies spread many non antisemitic people start using those phrases without any understand of it. So you end up in a situation it's impossible to tell who is a neo nzi or not. Either way nzi ideas spread
@@Angie753I couldn't agree more. Many Christians are, as Kierkegaard explains, in a state of Anxiety and don't know it. Being one myself, seeing the cognitive dissonance in Christian circles is extremely disheartening. They truly believe critically thinking outside the realm of Christianity is sinful. Please send help. 😂😂😂
8:18, Alisa's rant here is kinda true, you can deconstruct your beliefs and then reconstruct them. Most people don't reconstruct their religious beliefs, because they learn that "It has to be true" isn't good enough to convince them that it IS true. That's the danger for religious people and their organizations, most people who start to examine their religious beliefs through deconstruction do NOT reconstruct, but leave their faith altogether, taking $$$s away from religions, and also reminding the reconstructers that maybe they are still mistaken in their beliefs.
Did Alisa really deconstruct? I mean, way back in the before times, Christians would claim they were satanic high priests or something. Then, they claimed they were edgy atheists. Alisa is claiming that she deconstructed. I'm uncertain of her deconstruction. If she really did deconstruct, I want to see how she was deconstructing. What was her base metric that she was using to re-evaluate Christianity? feelings of disgust when confronted with Christians behaving badly? Did she really read the evidence for a Moses character? Did she re-read that Bible and notice things such as discrepancies? For example, my base metric was reality. Did a global flood occur? Could it occur? Where's the evidence of a global flood? Those were the questions I was asking because I should have been able to find physical evidence in this world. I know what a flood does. What the area should look like. The world has had various local floods. So I even have access to what an ancient flood should have done. Volume of water? How would this rain have occurred and where did that water go? I mean, there's geological evidence to prove or disprove this kind of story. I just don't believe her. Once you see how fragile the framework is, you're acutely aware of it. You don't rock the boat if you want to remain in that ideology. It's not like deconstruction is a linear process or even a quick process. People can stop at various stages. They can reconstruct to another faith system. This just feels like satanic panic, evil atheist.. it's just an update where the conservative steals the words of the left and perverts them so there's no meaning. We can't have deep conversations with a group that deliberately misuses words. (and yeah, I am granting her the intelligence to know what she's doing. She can pick stupid but then.. should anyone listen to stupid? )
@@jenniferhunter4074Yeah, it’s kind of a depressing way to approach someone’s claim about their own life experience but I can’t help but feel the same way when prominent evangelicals talk about their past struggles with the faith. It just feels like a story crafted to assuage the doubts and anxieties of others rather than to express anything candid or vulnerable about themselves. But I also feel that the culture of evangelicalism is fundamentally dishonest and the ones who value honesty are often the ones who “deconstruct” and leave.
@@leonardpaulson I feel sorry for them. They're forced to evangelize and hide any doubts. They're constantly on show. There is that hidden profit motive (well, not so hidden to be honest). And the fear. You can sense their fear. It's almost tangible. That's why they freak out when people choose another religion or walk away. It's part of their identity and how they ground themselves in their interpretation of reality. They need these stories to be true and the more people participate, the more they feel it is true. I mean, it's a fallacy but it is comforting to be with the herd. They're probably high conformist personality tendencies in this group. (If atheism ever becomes popular, we'd have the same problem. Conformists have a problem separating themselves from the herd and breathing.) I agree. the current culture of evangelism (right wing evangelism to be precise) does seem deceptive. It's understandable. They're scared. They can't kill us. They can't limit our speech... yet.. They can't drag us back to a more ancient moral understanding. And their fellow believers are shitty evangelist conservative Christians... the worst form of advertisement. Christianity could focus on more positive ideas and be more attractive but they have to ditch some of the core concepts. They have to do an update.
Why are any deconstruction channels a threat? If these believers have absolute conviction in their beliefs what’s the problem? Surely, if they perceive them as ‘threats’ then doesn’t that beg the question, why? 😮
finding secular rituals to mark stages of life and death is important. Here in Uk we see a trend after a car accident to have flowers placed at the location. I think funerals are important (no need for any religious content, but a focus point for the mourning)
Huh, so when Alisa said now everyone has a megaphone about their doubts and stuff that's pretty telling. They're upset that they can no longer silence dissenting voices.
She said: " a deconstructing youth is one who say's, I wanna be one that follow the bible, that follow truth" That sentence shows the need for deconstruction. If you TAKE FOR GRANTED that everything in the bible is THE SAME AS the truth, you HAVEN'T deconstructed. You have, uncritically, let someone sneak in a PREMISE in your thinking (the bible is the truth) without critically evaluating whether that truly is the case. If you ask yourself: How do I know if those people who spoke/wrote/collected/rejected and translated the bible, were led by god? How do I know if something is true? Is obedience to the strangers who wrote the bible, the same as obedience to god? Are believers believing the bible or USING the bible to promote what they ALREADY believe? Etc, etc, etc. THEN you are deconstructing. You are deconstructing your ASSUMPTIONS. What ANSWERS you settle on is another matter altogether
If Evangelical Christians listened to people deconstructing with compassion half as much as they talked about them, they would be a lot more successful in their goals.
No they wouldn't. They wouldn't get any more converts because as annoying as it is their callous rudeness and lack of basic empathy and social aptitude isn't the actual problem; it's the absurdity of their claims. If they listened with compassion, half of them would quickly end up 'deconstructing' too.
Evangelical Christianity isn't the only Christianity out there. Believers should avoid making an idol out of a particular set of dogmatic beliefs. For example, is remarriage to be always considered adultery? Sexual immorality is grounds for divorce and remarriage is permissible. However, to divorce and remarry without sexual immorality having occurred is discouraged. Jesus warned against the practice of divorcing and remarrying multiple times, since during His time on earth divorce was often initiated by men looking to get rich off the accumulation of bridal dowries. It was not easy for a woman to divorce her husband because of the socioeconomic situation then common for women without families, but a man could simply declare a divorce and he would stay with the dowry, while his wife would be destitute. If she was getting divorced on grounds of adultery, it was worse.
@@hananokuni2580 Amen. When I started to come out as trans, of course that forced me to radically deconstruct the Conservative Evangelical interpretation of Christianity, but I didn't de-convert from the broader faith, because I was able to find local affirming Mainline churches led by gay pastors. Liberation Theology makes a lot more sense to me as way to understand the significance of the Gospel.
I started my deconstructing journey from Catholicism in 2019, but i didn't have a word for what I was doing until about 2022-23. Knowing that word has helped me find a safe space to communicate my thoughts, and connect with people who encourage everyone to think for themselves. I have never felt like someone was shoving their "deconstructed" beliefs down my throat (unlike Catholicism/Christianity). It's been an opportunity to have open conversations about what different people believe and having a space to say "thats so good that you're taking those steps to discover what's good for you". Nomatter what its named, thinking freely, caring for yourself and others, exploring and widening your worldview, and allowing yourself to be honest about how you feel about what you believe (and dont believe) is a beautiful thing. I think deconstruction has become publicly "popular" because its a way for people to learn and decide for themselves rather than be forced to believe something and never question. Thank you for your video! It was a great listen :)
If there is no space to acknowledge that the bible was obviously written by flawed human beings a long time ago, then the faith as a whole is screwed, because those are usually the first exploratory questions true believers happen upon.
Alisa talking about using sensitive language while keeping the spiritual warfare in the back of her mind gave me chills. It's such familiar language from my childhood, but I haven't heard it said explicitly like that for so long. How I can expect to be seen as a full person by people who see me as a pawn of their spiritual enemy?
Christians’ and conservatives’ obsession with definitions can get downright silly. “Deconstruction” is literally anytime you deconstruct something, regardless of what you do afterward. Whether you installed a toilet or dismantled a car, you still used a damn wrench.
"Deconstruction" is to take something apart carefully, piece by piece, the opposite of "construction", which is to put something together carefully, piece by piece. Anyone who has done even a cursory review of Latin will know the meanings at a glance. The _de-_ is a prefix meaning "off" or "backing away from" and _con-_ means "with" or "together". The _-struction_ is from the Latin _-strûctiô-,_ related to the verb _struô_ that means "to put together" or "to pile up". This is similar to the English word _strewn,_ which actually means "laid down haphazardly or in disorganized fashion." I reckon that those "deconstructing the faith" do so in pursuit of the truths behind it, regardless of whether it results in their abandoning or embracing it.
so, it's silly on the surface, but is actually a very insidious control tactic. they're not being transparent about their core issue here--they're treating the word "deconstruction" as a gateway drug/social contagion re: the questioner's exposure to online content/digital spaces. same wheelhouse as digital radicalisation [my thesis subject]. her mention of the hashtag at the beginning wasn't accidental.
The part where Drew mentions the murder fantasy and not denying God so that you would live really hit home with me. Doing some self reflection a few months ago I had a memory come up of being 8-9 after the book She Said Yes was released... Then I literally remember my evangelical/pentacostal church praying over us kids and sunday school classes being based on how we should never deny the existence of God and we should just get unalived by school intruders..... it was something I had totally blocked out and repressed but that memory and a few more came back so vividly that it overtook me and I had some real anxiety and depressive issues flare up. It is crazy abusive to do this to children. It has been over 18 years or so now and I am still having flare ups in my religious trauma resurface.
15 minutes in and I'm so angry at them. And this absolutely affirms my decision to remain outside the church. These people go through so many mental gymnastics to keep their faith
Indeed. MAGA evangelicals are enabling a former president who has been found civilly liable for r*pe and is as of today a convicted felon found guilty on all 34 counts. Evangelicalism is morally inferior and defective. I'm glad it's declining.
Christianity crates liberal democracies because they aren't allowed to create theocracies. Christianity is the only thing stopping tyranny. We will be an is lamic republic or else a Christian democracy. And no.. protestants and catholics aren't profoundly different .. if it's early protestant.
14:20 their point about "if you're questioning your faith, go seek answers from your parents" almost never results in genuine answers, because 90% of the time, the reason you're part of said religion is exclusively because of your parents, and if they find out you're no longer interested in said faith, they will often weaponize anything and everything possible in order to keep you in said faith. Not out of malice, but because that's how they were raised themselves, and most Christian sects believe that anything different is a threat to the soul. I was about 12 or 13 when I knew for certain I no longer believed, and it took about 3 years of failed coercion & force for my parents to accept I wasn't coming back. Now, 17ish years later, they're all secular too.
I would say my recent journey through therapy, diagnoses, and deconstruction, is predicated on the fact that I - a previously undiagnosed ADHDer - could never perform the adequate behaviors that would allow me to fit in to the high control, dysfunctional, nuclear family I grew up in; and that I always had my motivations prescribed to me as a result. As someone who has basically been looking deep into the maw of deconversion and had it stare back for a while now, I can say with almost complete certainty that the evangelical Christian habit of telling people what they think and believe as if they know better than the person they’re dehumanizing is possibly the most toxic aspect of it. Sure, the high control aspect is bad. Yeah, the fear-mongering is horrible. Basically being told that you don’t know your own thoughts and feelings, and having people operate under the assumption that the person “in the wrong” isn’t actually sincere in their experience, is a special level of hell. No wonder my experience has seen so few neurodivergent people in churches. I can’t imagine how much worse a hell it is for people who couldn’t even manage the marginal level of functionality that I achieved by making my self as nonexistent as possible.
I low key think the church doesn't want any of us who are neurodivergent to exist. So instead of outright saying it, they dehumanize and manipulate so we don't even trust ourselves. I am at a point now where even if God was real(he isn't), I wouldn't choose him. After re-reading the bible, I think he tries to disguise that he's actually the villain.
This comment almost made me cry. This was such a huge part of my experience, powerfully stated. Good for you and every one of us getting the help and validation we deserved ❤
It’s stunning that none of them are really looking at WHY people want to deconstruct. Like maybe the problem is with the church not those deconstructing.
Yeah, I've been making that point to Christians for many years. Every time a survey comes out showing a decline in Christianity, a bunch of articles appear alternately blaming the state of the culture and questioning the accuracy of the statistic -- a favorite is the "hidden believer" who no long attends church regularly, or attends a house church, but is still a born-again Christian. They never appear to use the data as a cause for self-reflection.
I've noticed that apologetics use the same tactic "i was an atheist" or "i was gnostic" "i was deconstructing" all lies "Don't deconstruct!" Is basically the new "don't ask questions!"
If Christianity was so strong and powerful and the belief system was built upon a strong foundation it would be able to withstand questioning. When people actually start to ask questions and the answers don’t stand up to scrutiny that leads to changes in their belief system. There shouldn’t be any fear regarding questioning.
"mom, dad i wanna explore the world" - "sure buddy, here's a nicely packed backpack. Have fun" - *leaves garden* "HEY COME BACK! NOT LIKE THAT" is what i hear
I’m sure the fact that she and her husband are musicians whose whole livelihood depends on their “ministry” had nothing at all to do with her return to evangelical Christianity.
"Don't say you're deconstructing. Deconstruction has no assumed conclusion. Say you're reforming so people know there's a limit to what you're willing to reevaluate."
I am so glad you two did this video. The specific point that was about how Sean gives off that faux kindness and then does an about-face immediately and changes absolutely nothing. It's literally every experience we have with "nice" Christians. "Oh I'm so sorry you had those experiences. We have to do better." And then over the next decade there are zero changes. It's unbelievably infuriating.
Apologists as lawyers is a great analogy. The lawyer's job is NOT to find the truth but rather to put on the strongest case possible for his/her client and attack the other side's case and evidence no matter how good it is. In the legal system it's the judge or jury who decide what's "true" after the lawyers each put on as one sided a case as they can. While scholars do have biases, the enterprise of scholarship and science at least *aims* to find what is actually true and the case about the world - not to lawyer for a set position regardless of the other side's evidence
As an apologist, I do know many who do that on both sides. I argue my case, and for what I know to be true. I wouldn't argue for something I wasn't willing to die for. I had someone do it for me, so I return the favor and answer questions truthfully. I know Christ died and rose again, and I know from my personal experinces that He is Lord.
Just starting to watch this, from the thumbnail alone my reaction is that faith that cannot face the valid questions is not a faith of value. I say this as a Christian, and also as a church leader (ok the far right Christians will call me a dodgy liberal). I teach that God is big enough for our questions and doubts. If not then your God is too small. Evangelical/Literalist Christianity is only one tiny part of the church, and the assumption that only they have the 'true faith' is both excluding and leading people to feel that their valid experiences in faith are not acceptable. If God were to assess only those in 20th century evangelical churches (who said the magical sinners' prayer) as true believers; or even only protestants reading the Bible for themselves; then where does that leave centuries of illiterate; or those who believed before the modern Bible and the evangelical church; or even those who trust in God with almost no info (thief on the cross anyone?) If only those following your church's rules of what makes a Christian are acceptable to God then that feels horrific to me. At least sects like JWs openly declare that only those following their rules is counted; in reality many churches act this way without that open statement. Whilst this may feel unfair to those who want to be distanced from christian faith (and I do want to respect that). I feel that when the church/christians have damaged people leading them away from faith, then God is basically on their side and has no issue with someone rejecting that distortion of faith. Basically I believe God's grace is much wider and open than so many of their followers recognise.
I'm an atheist, someone who deconstructed before there was deconstruction (did it on my own). It's your segment of Christianity that I find has a place for those who still believe AND provides a positive outcome for those within and for those outside. Thank you for your intellectual take
That’s funny because any Bible thumping Christian would say you’re not really Christian. How do I know that you might ask, because I tried it myself. Bible thumping Christians don’t believe in any thing that goes against their beliefs.
The literalists have a very unimpressive imagining of God. When I still believed, my imagined God could have written the entire history of the universe at the subatomic level at the moment of its expansion. My God was clearly smarter than their god. My God also didn't care about who I had sex with. or what foods I ate. or which fabrics were appropriate, or how I should wear my hair, but those things would be so trivial and beneath my God. Their literalist god is still the storm god flinging angry bolts of vengeance, something an omnipotent entity would never need to engage in.
This message at 7:39 is very much like what I grew up with: "It's OK to ask questions as long as you always find the answer is God (Jesus). Not much has changed.
19:27 This is such a weird phenomenon within Evangelicalism. Me and some friends of mine came back from Passion 2024, and while we were there, after one of the sessions I asked the question, "Do you believe there is only one right theology to understand who God is," to my friend group, and their responses shocked me to my core. Not only did they believe that there is one right theology, but they also said that "It has to be this way because we have the one true God and so we have a responsibility to showcase that in our theology. Unfortunately, due to sin, however, this is an ongoing feat that is hard to attain, which is why there is grace." I sat there in shock because they are so accustomed to "objective truth" that they have forced God into an objective box that can only color within the lines they prescribe to him. They also say that not realizing regardless of how "objective" someone believes they are regarding Christianity and God, they say that "objective" statement being a subject themselves. Put differently, how one comes to understand theology is built on 4 things: Scripture, Tradition, Reason, and Experience. Most people who rely on scripture and tradition as a way to best understand God, believe themselves (such as many evangelicals today), have the key to the "right" theology. This is one reason I believe they can seem so tribal, dogmatic, and echo-chambered in nature. When people lean one way or another in terms of forming their theology, they can be (not always), skewed. Take Conservativism and Progressivism as an example. One side holds to scripture and tradition while the other holds to reason and experience. I argue that one should have a balanced view and allow all aspects to be the guide when forming their theology. Unfortunately, what we see, however, is the demonization from evangelicals when any Christian doesn't conform to their take on theology as just that, their take among many. Yes, you can believe in Jesus and believe systemic racism is an issue. Yes, you can believe in God and also believe homosexuality as an orientation, isn't sinful because what was talked about in the Bible was pederasty, sexual violence, and male prostitution, not an orientation. Yes, it is possible to love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. Yes, You can hold to your personal convictions without being a douchebag to everyone else who doesn't. Yes, you can believe Jesus broke every curse, and also call out white cis-hetero patriarchy. These things aren't mutually exclusive, and the sooner ALL Christians realize this, the sooner we can all properly represent Christ to a world that needs it. Coda: I told my friend about the formation of one's theology and how it had tangible effects in culture historically, specifically toward interpretations that allowed things like slavery, racism, and lynching to be normalized in white Christian spaces. They believed they were right because of scriptural interpretation and tradition. So when people just agree to things like, "There is only one right theology to understand God, " without doing any introspection or cultural analysis of what kind of implications one is believing by saying that is not only ignorant of certain realities, but privileged and dangerous.
I’m in my 50s and left my evangelical faith in my early 40s. I was not a practicing Christian for decades before that really. There is no name for what I am now. What I say I am is meaningless, what I do is what matters. I don’t really have any beliefs or faith and just go with the flow. I don’t use these words that are now floating around like deconstruction. People are always changing. It’s very healthy to deconstruct any fixed beliefs. I drew a line in the sand and let friends and family know I was not a Christian. This never ends well. They will put an insane amount of pressure on you, ostracize and judge you. There is nothing to say really. If you want to maintain some connection to people of faith, it might not be the best thing to draw lines in the sand. The Evangelical mandate is one of violence at its core. That’s intolerable in a Republic. I hope they come to their senses, but I don’t think they will. It’s life or death to the baby boomers and they will take us all down with them. The receding of their religion has amped up their violence proportionally. Ironic a religion of love would degrade to one of intolerant violence. For them, this is war. There can be no compromise. They don’t realize the war is in themselves.
Okay, I’m in the process of deconstructing but this is way off. Yes, evangelicals can be very pushy and judgmental. Also in its modern form it’s rarely violent. Islam is the only modern religion with a legitimate violence problem. They all might be wrong, that doesn’t mean they’re all violent.
They're too obsessed with wording. People dont need the word "deconstruction" to deconstruct, it's going to happen anyway for most people with any level of empathy and critical thinking. My mom had a period where she didn't want to be Christian anymore because she had issues with the theology she had been subjected to and after a few years of reflecting and finding her own interpretations of things that felt contradictory to her (like an all loving god creating a physical place for people to burn for all eternity) she found a church that made her feel like it improved her life and started identifying with the religion again. She doesn't really use the term "a Christian" in reference to herself anymore because she doesn't like a lot of the assumptions that get made about her beliefs based on that lable. She goes to church and is an active participator in her community, and she lives in a way that aligns with her values. She didn't use the word deconstructing, or reforming, or anything else for that matter. She just did it. It doesn't matter what you call it, people will question their beliefs whether they have a word for it or not. If these people think that the word "reforming" is going to change that, they are delusional.
If you want to deconstruct, you don't go to church and talk to the pastor. You go look for alternative opinions and viewpoints and people who already went through the process. These guys are trying to Rebrand deconstruction and control the narrative, and create a Persona as if they are unbiased
Deconstruction wasn’t something I had any control over. I’ve tried to deconstruct my deconstruction, and figure out what happened. I’m not even able to pinpoint when it started. It feels less like something that had an origin, and more like a natural progress of evangelicalism. I was always going to end up here. I don’t see how I could have chosen any other path that would have lead me anywhere other than where I am now. I don’t think evangelicals know what deconstruction means or even how it happens.
I am in the midst of deconstructing and it’s painful. Did it originate in a feeling, a question about if what I’ve believed for over 50 years may not be correct, in whole or in part? Yes, it did. That doesn’t make it any less valid. It is the rigor and intellectual integrity I apply to the process that matters. And I’ve done post graduate work in theology, and was a missionary.
I was a Christian for 17 years, until I was 31 and a semester away from finishing a ministry degree. I asked questions, always have, that didn’t jive. It is because of the tools and research methods, that I learned in seminary courses, that led to me walking away from the church. Hermeneutics and for example, comparing a singular passage and reading it (translated from the Hebrew or Koine Greek) and seeing how this passage has been altered to fit societal view points, led to me to question everything being taught by the Church.
This is equivalent to the Catholic Church saying in like the 1500s “oh shit people can read and access the Bible in their mother tongue guess now, we can’t just say whatever we like anymore”
as an older gen z who is very much a legal adult since 5 years back or so I take major offence to being called a kid (around 18:00) and I don't think many millennials would call themselves kids given they're older than me
Dear Hosts, great, informative video! As a medievalist (English lit & hist) I want to type a long note here but for my own mental health I will try to be as concise as possible. All evangelicalism, and especially the by far most common 19th century forms that promote a-biblical/extra-biblical garbage like the “Rapture,” written by one of the very few Bible texts in which the author names himself as - John of Patmos - who is absolutely NOT John the Apostle (tons of work on the language and provenance prove this). Catholics (I’m a former catholic now agnostic) and mainline Protestants use very similar forms of the Bible dating back to the Council of Nicaea. Then we have the Latin Vulgate, which served as THE Bible for centuries, then the Wycliffite English vernacular partial bible, then the post-Reformation King James translation, which is the least sound in terms of language but is (perhaps) the best written and most poetically lovely version, etc. The sudden massive interest in the Rapture stuff (for me a 150 years is relatively “sudden”) and belief in an impending judgment - which sadly most evangelical types think is happening in their own lifetimes despite the endless evidence to the opposite of this narcissistic belief system - has caused massive problems for Christians. This nuttery has led people to lies and false prophets - especially mega church promises of wealth and money (see Africa) and avoiding medical doctors even when a child is actively dying (see everywhere as there have been many legal issues that have been brought against these parents - one set of parents starved their infant to death to “drive out its demon”)
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They are really talking about echo chambers online when they want to change a word so Christians don't have to even think about non Christians xD
THIS ^
The irony.
Churches are the biggest echo chambers on the planet.
They don't even want to expose their children to another Christians, let alone non-believers
Yep. If you don't see it it is isn't there.
I’m fine with replacing “deconstructing” with a phrase that better reflects what’s going on. How about “deprogramming?” “Unbrainwashing?”
☝🙌🙌🙌
🎉😂
Let’s just avoid the word DECONSTRUCTION
Just say “I am learning to THINK,”
Or “I am taking the blinders off,”
Or “I am searching for TRUTH,”
Or “I am finding out why there are so many wars,”
Or “I am finding out why children can’t get along with their parents or with each other?”
Or “I am finding out why there are so many religions.”
💭💭💭
Yes. Deprogramming is a good one.
I still go by "deprogramming"
I literally have to find a new therapist because mine thinks my deconstruction is a problem
That’s awful! I hope you find a new therapist! Best of luck!
Woof, sorry that's terrible.
I was so excited when I found my therapist because she listed processing religious trauma as one of her main focuses. Good luck finding someone else!
Please do !
Are you seeing a Christian counselor? There are definitely some great ones (I've met and been helped by a few, two of whom had partly "deconstructed" themselves) but the pastoral counseling scene is a minefield. I've run in circles with people who still believe in Satanic ritual abuse or who specialize in "helping believers deal with unwanted same sex attraction." 🫤
I found the best gem at 48:20: She said "When your precious teenager calls you and says 'I am deconstructing, my youth pastor was abusive to me...'" The next thing out of her mouth should have been that something has to be done about that abusive youth pastor, but she had only her warfare against deconstruction in her mind.
Lying doesn't count when christians do it, and similarly, SA is OK when priests do it.
It's all covered by the 11th commandment, *Except Me*.
That got me too! Sorry but that gets me so angry. Christians are utterly useless at any kind of problem solving. Because either they're only capable of praying for solutions and never take action to do anything themselves, or the problem makes them question the system so they'd rather sweep it under the rug and attack the person who's concerned and deconstructing for their own moral reasons. Anyone who questions the faith is an enemy.
It is way too sad 😢
Yep. I was appalled.
I mean a pastor being abusive is about as unexpected as the Pope being Catholic.
It’s funny how deconstructing is the enemy of their beliefs in a god. Oh you mean THINKING?
If your faith can't withstand scrutiny, then you shouldn't build your life upon it.
Louder for the people in the back
but what if your scrutiny is just to tell Christians to change their religion to conform to the current political religion that controls everything.
Christians should conform to corporate ESG scores?
or they don't withstand scrutiny?
Easier said than done. It goes beyond philosophical realm into reality by practicality. Anyone can claim they're Christian but who's know what will play out; even Peter denied Christ three times. More often people didn't even understand or know what they actually believe in. It's fun and game to poke into other people's faith. Are you ready for stand trial?
@@MicahMicahelthere is no political religion that controls everything, atheism is not a religion, neither is secularism.
@@MicahMicahelwrong, atheism isn’t a religion, neither is secularism. The fact that your faith doesn’t stand up to scrutiny shows it’s patently false
53 min in - when politics falls from 'we disagree about what is best for our country' to 'the other pov is demonic' then we are in such scary territory
Delusion in politics is always scary.
Hmm...how do I rationalize this person's opposing perspective?
Oh! I know! They're agents of the devil!
They're never going to be self aware enough to realize stuff like that is why people are leaving their church in droves
Then they turn around and claim they're being persecuted and not tolerated "just for their beliefs". Without really saying what their beliefs are. Without saying their beliefs are that everyone who disagrees with them are demons or are being controlled by demons.
@@terrencelockett4072 Yes. They must feel like they're being persecuted for their beliefs because that's one of their cherry picked verses. When they can twist the world around enough to really believe suffer for their religious beliefs in this country which is setup to benefit them, they are capable of convincing themselves of basically anything that floats around their echo chamber without even questioning whether it's real or not. I think that their religion works in much the same way, believe what the leaders say just because the leaders say it. Peace 💚
My christian faith was the most important thing to me and I took my religion very seriously. Its wrong of them deny our faith as having not been real. I didnt deconstruct and become an atheist because I wanted to, I did so because I wanted to know the truth. It was so painful and confsing, and I spent a year suffering that. But it lead me here. Free of mind and happier than Ive ever been,
It's so disgusting when we're dismissed. I was on fire for Jesus. My faith was my bedrock. Then I began asking myself a simply quwstion which I ask most Christians/theists I encounter today: Do you care whether the things you believe are true?
And I've realized, many Christians DON'T. Truth is that which comports to reality. But xtians will say: Jesus is the way, THE TRUTH, and the light.
If you believe the latter, you are baatardizing and weaponizing the usage of the word "truth" against yourself, and living in delusion.
Sorry for the typos. On mobile and I have sausage fingers.
Exactly 👍🏼 I went through that same process
This sounds so familiar! It was horrible at first. Feels like your whole world is falling down.
And then, slowly, you realize that not having your actions and thoughts controlled is so much better.
Plus, I feel like life has more meaning when it’s finite.
Christians don't understand that there is a grief process to deconstructing and/or deconverting and sometimes that anger is a part of that grief. It's not because we never believed in the first place, it's because we believed so deeply. We have to come to terms with how much of our identity was wrapped up in that belief. But not all of us stay in that grief place forever. You can find peace and joy in view the world through new eyes. You can find your own meaning in life and it's beautiful.
Hearing these people refer to evangelicalism as "classical Christianity" should piss off anybody who knows anything about church history. It might be the most infuriating thing about this video to me. If you went to any Christian even five hundred years ago and showed them an American evangelical church they would not recognize it and they probably wouldn't even acknowledge it as "true Christianity."
If I still identified as Christian, I would give this an "AMEN!". As I don't, I'll just say, "THIS!"
My evangelical mother will tell you with her whole chest that the “American founding fathers” were christians in the same sense that she is. Never mind that even if that were true, it’s nothing to be proud of. And it doesn’t matter how demonstrably untrue it is, she just refuses to hear it.
Yeah I genuinely don't consider American Christians as Christian at this point, their belief system is laughable and every day they stray further from the bible despite their supposedly literal interpretations.
The balls on this man.
Hell, take any Evangelical to a Traditionalist Catholic church still doing the Tridentine Mass in the original Latin and they'll be screaming about everything being Satanic faster than if you took them to the nearest library.
She almost lost her faith until she realized how much money it could make her.
I'm not a big fan of Alisa but that's juvenile. If she was motivated by money she wouldn't have married a musician.
thats why most pastors are still in religion anyways
@@JewandGreekor because she's not getting money from her husband like that, she has to grift through apologetics just like every other evangelical apologist. 🤷♂️
@@JewandGreekmusician make a lot money what you on about?
After being christian for 45 years. I have made a very educated decision and tore down the castle I constructed known as christianity. I will not build anything in its place. I am done with lies.
When I was a believed I was willing to go to crazy lengths and all kind of intellectual dishonesty to keep believing.
I liked to think of my belief as a pile driven foundation.
I was willing to use solipsism and the idea that we can't really know anything, to claim everything is absurd. Christianity is absurd, but so is that fact that I can't prove reality is even real.
I eventually came to realize my mental gymnastics were pointless. That these tricks did nothing to actually support the belief, and that they were only a shield from the reality I had no reason to believe.
I had to face, why add lots of unknown complexity to an already very complex universe, and place most of the importance on the unknown. It made no sense.
@@SamArco132 Maybe you never genuinely discovered a reason to believe. And maybe none of your questions were genuinely answered. So now you are in a wilderness of your own making
you mean a life free from abusive and coercive people like you?@@stephenhowe4107
@@stephenhowe4107 Right now you are coming off as extremely condescending, so I'll be blunt
The bible contains stories. Different denominations interpret the stories differently. I don't have to believe the stories or any of the interpretations.
It's great. I apply the same method to all myths and conspiracy theories. I don't have to believe any of them. I don't have spend time trying to square them away in my head. All I need to do is shrug and move along.
Good for you! Now you can really find out who you are. It's a never ending journey. I like this saying; How do you know who you are, if you don't know how you got here? And how do you know where you are going, if you don't know who you are?
When you reevaluate any aspect of your life, you are deconstructing. It's not something that needs to be made overly complicated.
Exactly! Doesn’t have to be spiritual o religious.
@anainesgonzalez8868 Lol imagine if we never changed our perspective from when we were in our teens and early 20's.
100%! It’s so important to reevaluate what matters and filter out what doesn’t resonate anymore. There’s an excellent book, called Design the Life you Love, by Ayse Birsel, an industrial designer who teaches how to use her design process on your most important project: your life! Her process is Deconstruction:Reconstruction, or De:Re, as she refers to it. All deconstruction is in the design process, is taking something apart so you can see all the parts and pieces. Anyone who is wary of anyone looking at all the parts, is not wanting someone to see everything clearly. All the more reason to deconstruct in my opinion! Also highly recommend the book, it was pivotal in my life!
@@kinseydesignsbrands Thanks 😊 I'll have to check it out.
@@kinseydesignsbrands introspection isn't encouraged , just spiritual evaluation
I worked for a Christian nonprofit that has a radio show/podcast, and Alisa Childers came on as a guest to talk about deconstruction. I was secretly deconstructing at the time, and was so taken aback by the calloused way she described why and how people deconstruct their faith. I was sat in the background of that Zoom call feeling like a worthless, God-hating piece of trash all because I wanted to leave Evangelicalism. I left that nonprofit shortly after, and am still healing from hateful and harmful theology they uphold to this day.
Love your guys' content, keep it up!
Modern Evilgelicalism is not "christianity" its Christian Nationalism. When I saw the "christians" supporting the torture of children in cages at the border, you are not "christian" you are evil. Jesus would have been down their tearing down those walls in an uncontrollable rage. After watching that atrocity for over a year, it was obvious that the church had stopped teaching the word of jesus for decades.
When seeking truth it's best to leave our feelings behind. Yes, in the heat of the moment and especially if you're already in a vulnerable situation we all can easily feel personally attacked and hurt. However we shouldn't allow our feelings, no matter how powerful they are, to make final decisions for us.
I don't watch Alisa, but I remember four-five years ago coming across a video of hers ( don't remember the title or what it was exactly about), and I felt upset and attacked by what she said in it. At the time, I would say that my beliefs were probably more align with Progressive Christianity than anything else. However, after cooling off, I decided to objectively look into validity of her words. I didn't watch more of her videos, but I started getting involved in Christian Apologetics and as much as possible objectively looking into Christianity and investigating it and my own beliefs. To my surprise I ended up reading the Bible more than before, praying more, and becoming what some may call it a conservative Christian. Politically I'm not a Conservative, I'm still a Liberal ( I live in Canada, so two leading parties are Liberals and Conservatives, not Democrats and Republicans like in the US).
Good for you. I can relate. Stay strong.
But... but... you just want to be a sinner.
@mimimimz6719 Christian apologetics and objectively looking at Christianity are polar opposites.
I'm currently deconstructing and the spark of my deconstruction was actually digging deeper into the Bible. The more I studied, the more I saw things that did not connect. And I hate the argument that if you deconstruct you were never a real Christian. I don't want to lose my faith. I don't want to leave it, but at the same time I can't logically hold to it because the thing used to build the faith is the thing that is falling apart for me. I just can't maintain the cognitive dissonance any more.
That makes total sense and you sound pretty self aware
I just started the vid but I think they’re going to miss the fact that (I’d guess) most people don’t begin deconstructing on purpose. It may become purposeful as time goes on, but (myself included) I’d venture to guess a lot of people are just following the path of critical thinking or dealing with trauma caused by religion or maybe getting out of their families houses/control and beginning to think for themselves.. they wind up deconstructing but it’s from a natural process (like yours)- not because they were looking for a way out of their faith.
I’m in a similar spot, I still believe in Jesus but I don’t believe in a lot of what my old church taught.
That's becasue the moment people saw that faith could be used to manipulate people and gain power, they used it to do just that, if that meant ripping out pages or adding new stuff in, so be it... The Bible is heavily allegory, and not necessarily logical. But the main themes are good, its the stuff man clearly added to suit their preferences and limited scope and understanding of the world that are the most problematic... The great thing is that a part that comes through loud and clear is that people get to have personal relationships with God, no middleman or rigid religion is really necessary...
When people ask me how I can turn my back on God, I tell them that I'm not. I'm turning my back on people who claim to be speaking on God's behalf and provide no evidence for it. That includes all of the biblical authors, all clerics, and you.
I started deconstructing my faith last summer and quit my church home group in November. The leader is an ex-pastor who still fancies himself as a shepherd. He accused me of never being born-again, having alot of head knowledge, but no "heart knowledge" and just wanting to sin. The dude is nosy and manipulative. So glad to be free of his fake love. Same with the rest of the members. They hug one another and claim to love one another, but once you disagree with their belief system, they consider you an apostate, reprobate and enemy. From love to hate in 1 second flat. Completely conditional. So ugly.
Ironically, a shepherd keeps sheep safe until he sells or slaughters the sheep.
As a Christian who has long since Deconstructed, dig into it. Study the context of the Bible and the time it was written (and then translated) but most importantly find people who support you no matter where your journey takes you.
You may end up atheist, agnostic or even Christian. It doesn't matter, you are awesome for taking this journey and I have faith in you. It is a hard road, but it is important.
I can't count the number of times growing up that I was told by my mother and many members of the church around me that I think too much and that too much "worldly knowledge is dangerous."
I couldn't see that massive red flag for what it was at the time. Truth withstands scrutiny. If you're afraid that too much learning will lead you away from a belief, then you don't have the truth.
Most pastors are self righteous and condescending bordering on pretentiousness and patronization.
I understand feeling lied to about God, and that it feels like people use God for their own reasons, but that doesn't mean God isn't real. I've been reading the Bible, for myself, and I'm amazed at how EVERYONE (including myself) gets it wrong. Read the bible (not just one of them, but the original texts, themselves, as) for yourself and come up with your own conclusion. I have nothing but love for everyone and trying to help them see the truth. As the bible says love rejoices in truth and not wrongdoing, along with it's patient and kind.
If evangelicals are freaking out about it, it's probably a good thing.
They reserve their outrage for real issues and deconstruction is pretty problematic.
@@finchborat People overcoming their indoctrination is a good thing.
@@optillian4182 No it isn't. Plus, it's more of them being brainwashed into thinking they were indoctrinated.
When you start rejecting basic Christian principles, you're not overcoming indoctrination. You're being indoctrinated.
@@optillian4182 yes... yes it is. And once they get to overcome their de-indoctrination they will know even more about who they really are. Amen. That's what it's all about. No pain... No gains. Sadly. 😊
@@finchborat they do... unfortunately most people have misplaced outage, so de-construction becomes necessary. We must all needs do it in our own way, for our own needs, only then can we snatch the pebbles. Christians are just people, just like you or me, only... Different... Just like you and me... People. They need your help just as much as you need theirs. That's truth. 😊
I left christianity about 20 years ago and I'm not sure I called the process anything. I was just like "I'm done with this bs"
Really? I would like to know if you are in the USA.
Because most Christianity in the the USA is non-normal.
So you might find yourself in the position where you reject genuine Christianity because you have been put off by caricature Christianity in the USA.
@@stephenhowe4107 damn, I've never seen anyone pull a no-true-scotsman on a whole country before
@@1tsrhodes: Well there are some exceptions, but in general, the children of USA evangelicals are leaving Christianity in droves. The country seems to have forgotten Francis Schaeffer (and he was American).
Really all of this is due to 2 movements in the 1950's which have knocked the stuffing out of young people:
The Postmodernists (Michel Foucault, Richard Rorty, Jacques Derrida (where we get the concept of deconstruction from)
Progressivism from The Frankfurt School of Thought (Herbert Marcuse, Erich Fromm, Max Horkheimer, Theodore Adorno).
But deconstruction, certainly for the Bible, really started in 1880 where German Theologians started questioning what could we be certain about.
@@stephenhowe4107 I'm in the USA, and back in the late 60s I was put off by a very devout and angry resentful christian member of the Navigators who astonished me with his hateful attitude toward all the normal average people around the world who were not brought up from infancy on his particular set of religious beliefs. Normal? Caricature? It's christianity. It's one set of religious beliefs, sometimes interpreted in many different ways. One can also read Greek or Mesopotamian mythology and interpret it in different ways. --- By the way, thanks go out to Leroy Jacobsen for helping me on my way!
@@stephenhowe4107the genuine?
The murder, rape incest that god condones? That one?
Or do you cherry pick that stuff out like in you life? Bad stuff happens to you ,do you thank him? You, never like so many "believers" never read "book" or you would know better! Did you have to read on how to BREATHE?
SO little sly boy would need a book? And humans to write it? Like the telephone game?
Is that why so many different denominationscant agree on what's, what? Old testicle, why a new testicle?
Just believe what your told like a zombie? You're not a kid anymore!
The way she described wanting to go to war with a teenager who disclosed abuse from a preacher and wanted protection🤢 like the teen is the demon in this scenario??? disgusting
Typical Christian mom ime.
It's not surprising from Childers. She has also stated in a video with Clay Jones that children who are s3xually abused are better off brutally stabbed to death than receive care, protection and love as she believes s3xually abused children will "infect" innocent children with their s3xual trauma and knowledge.
To be fair to her, she wasn't talking about wanting to go to war with the teenager, or argue with them or anything - she said go to war by showing compassion and kindness to that person. Although I agree that the framing of it is gross. I skipped most of it so I'm not sure what exactly she thinks she is fighting a war against by being kind to an abused teenager, but I'm guessing it's Satan/demonic forces bent on breaking down the church using predators within churches or something along those lines. In any case, she was never talking about attacking or arguing with the teenager.
@jaylynn8630 Did she say that? That would be unusual ime. I thought she was talking about battling the demons causing the teen to act in ways that caused the pastor to stumble ie abuse a child. Ime the church ladies always blame the child/teen/woman for being a temptation. Never been to a church where an abuser was held accountable.
@@amberinthemist7912 Yeah, she did. Go back and check - it's around 48:20. Another commenter on here posted the time stamp.
the way my blood BOILS when sean and other christians say people who deconstruct and leave the faith were never *real* christians based on his “personal experience”. what experience ??? has sean personally experienced leaving the faith???
Same here - I was raised as a fundamentalist Christian and believed every word I was taught, and deconstructing was extremely painful and has left a lot of emotional scars.
to hear that i “wasn’t a _real_ Christian” is always infuriating
@@DanSoloha It's like they have to say it as a defense mechanism. They feel, "Real Christians would never change their beliefs because they were already right, so anyone that changes their beliefs wasn't doing it right!" Otherwise, they would have to confront the fact that someone could do everything right and still arrive at the conclusion that their beliefs have changed. That would mean their beliefs are also subject to change, which is too threatening to accept.
@@watsonwroteIt's the old 'no true Scotsman' fallacy, isn't it? Which can be very hurtful to those of us who have moved away from the faith.
@@angelamaryquitecontrary4609 exactly right - “no _true_ Christian would ever abandon the faith and their Savior!”
even typing it out makes me a little angry lol
The irony is I grew up in christianity being taught the likes of Childers, Sean and Tim aren't real christians either as they are protestants, ie NOT following historical christianity.
You know you're in a high control group when the organization approaches all PR problems as perception problems, and never as operational problems.
To be fair, looking at the operational problem would likely end up with more deprogram.. er deconstructions
totally. while i can understand the desire to have "a word" aligned with a deconstructive process that centres the playing field in biblical thought/reclamation, it's pretty transparent to me that this argument isn't about drawing an ideological difference from nonbelievers--it's about the word "deconstruction" itself being treated like a gateway drug RE: her mention of hashtag, all the media/online communities using it, etc. it's not a definitional disagreement, it's a PR stopgap to lessen exposure.
The part when you were talking about Christians accusing non Christians of being under demonic influence really hit home. When I say something my mom doesn't like (she's a Christian and I've deconstructed), she says that Satan is whispering in my ear and that Satan and demons are speaking through me
My grandmother was deeply religious (in the way I’d consider truly Christian. No thinking less of those who weren’t, no pushing her religion on anyone, deeply loving of all people, deep,y interested in everyone’s story and would listen, believed in helping and supporting ppl etc) and at her funeral, an evangelical acquaintance told my aunt, her daughter, that she would never see her mother again if she didn’t accept Jesus into her heart… apart from being thoroughly disgusted by this statement for the content itself, I was and am disgusted that they were saying such a disgusting thing in my grandmother’s name when she did not believe that and would not have accepted them saying that in front of her!!!!
@@ellim1585 I'm so sorry that happened to you. People who do that are so insensitive and they don't even realize it. I don't know how they don't realize it. Unfortunately it's super common to say that when people die though. When I was in high school, a friend of mine died and at his funeral (which was full of his family and like half of our high school) the preacher leading the funeral told everyone that if we ever want to see him again then we need to accept Jesus as our savior. My friends mom was upset that he said that at her son's funeral, even though she was a Christian herself she could see how messed up that was. I don't know how other Christians can't see it too
Just reading every word of the Bible from beginning to end is a major first step toward deconstruction.
Sadly many “Christians” don’t even do that.
Hi. Have plenty of drinks and snacks on hand when doing that‼️😬
Couldn't god edit that down to a more manageable size and get his universal, astronomical points across⁉️😂🤣😬
@@JohnWaalandfun fact is the Bible does not even compare with how much information is there about how our universe actually works.
Have you seen a complete physics manual? 😂😂😂 And it's only physics! Add to that every science there is
I read almost the entire Bible 40 years ago and came to the conclusion that it doesn’t make any sense, that’s probably why churches created a priesthood and never wanted the faithful to read it.
@@purple66666 Physics don't even compare to God, it is constantly changing, lacking critical information, and is relative to our tiny little perception here on a little grain of sand.
This should serve to remind everyone that those evangelicals would not hesitate to restrict free speech for everybody else, given half a chance.
The first commandment clashes with the first amendment.
@@Leith_Crowther Great comment.
Just the way so many of these types complain about people voicing their opinions about their religious beliefs being forced on society.
All religious people would vote to end their own human and civil rights if given the chance. They have no clue as to why a nation governed by secular law is so important to have.
I call them Evilgelicals, or Christian Nationalists.. and fun fact, the word Nazi is short for the german word for Nationalist.. so Christian Nazi isnt to far from accurate.
“Deconstructionists were never in the faith” I literally went against my parents wishes to convert to Catholicism and take catechism classes which take in some parishes up to a year and a half of mandatory mass and catechismal classes. And I still ended up deconstructing and becoming an atheist. Shout out to Joan of Arc for making me rethink about the institution of religion
Agreed, you should never paint a group with a a broad brush. Every person's story is different. That being said, I am one of those who was never really in the faith, which for me made my deconstruction fairly easy. But again, everyone's journey is different.
@@stylesandsmarts I don't know your story so I can't possibly know if you were "never really in the faith," but I wanted to share a bit about my experience in case it resonates with you or anyone else reading the comments. For me, my deconstruction/deconversion also felt "fairly easy" and didn't look like many people's journeys. I've heard many people share about how it was a painful and confusing process/journey that sometimes took many years and that is the complete opposite of my journey, which at times made me question whether I was "really in the faith/a true believer" (I was).
Unlike most of the people Sean says he's talked to that can't even tell him when they became a christian, I could. I've shared my "testimony" in church and small groups plenty of times. I could tell you when "I gave my life to christ," I can tell you when I got baptized, I could tell you about my prayer life, or how for over a year I dedicated an entire day once a week to just fast, pray, & do a deep bible study. I could tell you how I listened to sermons and talks from christian leaders for hours each week, how I tried to restrict myself from enjoying certain things or types of media cause of the "sinful" content, how I attended church every Sunday and Saturday nights (when they started doing those), how I tithed every paycheck (even if I couldn't actually afford to) and sometimes gave an offering on top of my 10%, how I attended small groups and bible studies every week, and always volunteered to help in the church office with their admin stuff or outreach efforts.
I was the one who got my younger brother involved in the church (which I now regret), I helped lead bible studies, I served on the children's ministry team, I evangelized to students on my college campus, there are people I helped bring into this religion (which I again now regret) who are still a part of it, and even my mom used to come to me for spiritual guidance about the bible and what it says. At one point, I almost went into seminary to become a "christian counselor" and the only reason I didn't was because the government program funding my education at the time wouldn't pay for it and the court (yes I did take them to court to appeal their decision) sided with the program (and now I'm glad they did), though if this had happened today I probably would've won the court decision with how religious our system is becoming (which is terrible).
I even wrote and almost published a christian book called "Renew Your Mind" based on the verse in Romans 12:2 ("do not be conformed to the patterns of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind...."). The book talks about different areas of our life and how we can apply scripture to "renew our minds" in those areas. I had even already paid to have the book professionally edited, but thankfully, I started deconstructing a few months before I had planned to publish the book, so I never published it.
I say all this because while I do know now that my faith was always sincere and I was a "true/real believer" (I'd never do even half of all of that if I didn't truly believe it), there was a time when I questioned if my faith was "real" because my deconstruction/deconversion looked relatively "easy" (and quick) compared to others. While others talked about the pain, suffering, and confusion they went through during their deconstruction, the overwhelming emotion I experienced was RELIEF. I will say there was anger and grief as well for being (unintentionally) lied to my whole life, but the main feeling I had was relief.
Relief that I didn't have to continue sacrificing who I am and what I want out to life to become what god "called me to be" or to follow "his will/plans" for my life, relief that I didn't have to worry about making a mistake or being wrong about what I "heard" god tell me or that what I "heard" was actually just myself or the "devil" not god speaking, relief that I didn't have to carry around the guilt and shame I had anytime I "sinned" or had an "impure thought," relief that I did not have to forgive someone who hurt me just cause it's what "god calls/wants us to do," relief that I'm not just a "sinner whose good deeds are like filthy rags to a perfect, just god," 🙄 relief that I don't have to try to make sense of a book that is filled with contradictions & confusing statements (even though it says god is NOT the author of confusion yet he supposedly wrote the bible which also says that he DOES cause confusion at times. Make it make sense 🤷🏽♀). Also, after deconverting there's relief that I don't have to follow the rules of an abusive, narcissistic, sociopath (aka the biblical god).
So all this to say that even if someone's deconstruction journey doesn't involve a lot of pain or confusion or looks "fairly easy," that doesn't mean they weren't a "true/real believer" or sincere in their faith. Also, I should mention that I have ADHD and have spent most of my life masking my neurodivergence (which means I learned from a young age how to look/act like neurotypical people and hide my neurodivergence in order to fit in/belong, though this is all done subconsciously so I didn't even know what I was doing is called masking till much later) and as a christian I did a lot of masking and anyone who's neurodivergent will tell you that it's EXHAUSTING having to mask all the time. So leaving christianity finally allowed me to unmask a bit, which just added to my feeling of relief when I left. Just another point to consider for anyone reading this who's also neurodivergent and has a different experience than most people who deconstruct. Also, sorry about the long-winded reply, I tend to ramble a lot. 😅
Sounds like a no true Scotsman
Same. I grew up Evangelical Christian and was disowned by my family for converting to Mormonism which is incredibly involved and a huge time and effort commitment. Yet I still ended up an atheist
Joan of Arc really is an icon, isn't she
Excellent video! Thank you. I’m an ex-evangelical fundamentalist pastor. My deconstruction led to a full blown de-conversion. I lost everything after 35 years and had to reconstruct my entire life. One of the realizations that I had was the way in which evangelicals dismiss you while simultaneously claiming that they accept you for who you are and where you are in your journey. Like the faith itself, they are a walking contradiction.
I empathize with you…I had something similar happen to me with my former church community when I became self-aware that I was autistic at 37 years old. They were the only people who *didn’t* accept me for who I am.
But I left Evangelicalism and still have retained my faith and theism. My problem is solely with people using Christianity as a screen from being accountable.
I still love Scripture too…but I’m definitely more in Ecclesiastes mindset nowadays.
I stopped going to church when I realized I didn't want to be around other Christians anymore. I read the entire New Testament and what stayed with me the most was when Jesus talked about the 10 Commandments and said "Above all of these, love one another." But then I see pastors talking about spiritual warfare and different groups of people are sinners just for being themselves (isn't that the way God made them?) and we should do everything possible to stay away from them, but also love the sinner -- hate the sin. And the message that all you have to do to be a Christian is accept Jesus as your Savior. But after you do that you have to show everyone else that you're a Christian by saying the right words, staying away from the sinners, voting the right way, listening to the right music and don't let anyone in your family have the wrong kind of problems that can't just be prayed away. There's all kinds of ways to win and lose in the holier-than-thou olympics.
And what Christians seem to believe is the most important part of being a Christian is going to the right church. Good Christians know that Catholics aren't Christians, they're too superstitious and they believe a lot of things that aren't in the Bible so stay away from Catholics and also Mormons because they follow a false prophet, and Jehovah's Witnesses are practically atheists, and this other church speaks in tongues, and that church doesn't baptize people the right way, and any church where the pastor wears a robe -- unless he's in the choir -- stay away from those churches and the people in them. And you might as well buy a one way ticket to hell if you go to a church that accepts just anyone like female pastors or gay pastors or Unitarians, but by the way, did we mention that our church welcomes everyone, just like Jesus did?
I don't understand how anyone can develop a real relationship with God when they are surrounded by hypocrites and Pharisees every week. And the people that are so easily led astray by money and politics and charismatic people who write books to sell to Christians seem to be in the majority. It's a true miracle that there are still people who want to follow Christ and be more Christ-like. The best thing to do is stay away from people who won't accept you for who you are.
I have been in many different churches, and i have met 'christians' of many different personalities and character. But I'm old enough where I realize that doesn't prove or disprove the gospel. If I meet someone who claims to be a Christian but doesn't act as they should, i dont think christianity is not true, i just think that they are probably not a Christian. Also, i have met different people who hold to all kinds of views, walks of life, and from many different arenas. If people are hypocrites and contradict what they claim to hold to, then maybe they are fake and not genuine, and therefore have no bearing on the validity of what they say is true.
@@jameshoyt3692 My reasons for de-converting had nothing to do with the behavior of other Christians. I stopped believing because of the intellectual and moral absurdity of the claims.
@@KenEnCuenca oh OK I guess read your comment as being your main reason for deconversion. My bad.
When I realized I was not a “Christian” any more, I had never even heard of the word “deconstruction”. The first time I came across the process was from a TH-camr. I realized that I had been deconstructing the whole time. I was happy to know it was a thing, that I wasn’t alone, that my feelings were valid and I wasn’t alone in having to basically reestablish my entire belief system. Anyway, I am so grateful, so much more at peace and content knowing that I don’t have to live in a constant state of apology and that I don’t have to have all the answers because none of us do.
I felt very much the same.
I deconverted from evangelical christianity years ago, but only since a year did i realize that what ive been doing is deconstructing.
Being able to put a name to it helped my deconstruction process even more.
Deconstruction doesn’t necessarily stop after deconversion.
The fear clearly on display here shows the christian level of horror and terror in so many people leaving their religion wholesale. You can always spot terrified christians, they immediately try to act super dismissive of the threat.
Yup. So disingenuous.. they do things like calling atheism a religion or say really naive tropes like “well you couldn’t be an atheist if you didn’t ACTUALLY believe in god” (that one kills me)
@@spa-peggymeatballs4861Yes, calling atheism a religion is really annoying. Or how they claim that instead of God we worship money, sex or whatever buzzword they most like to use. It's like they don't know what "religion" or "worship" means.
But then again, none of this really matters. They can play their silly word games and pat themselves on the back for having "owned" us but it doesn't change the reality that they're adhering to a religion that doesn't make sense and an increasing number of people realizes that and are leaving.
What's probably the most important factor for the decreasing percentage of Christians is that when you have two parents that are irreligious, or even have left Christianity and are rightfully pissed off about the nonsense they've been fed, these parents are unlikely to indoctrinate their children into religion. And once this chain of indoctrination is broken, it usually doesn't get reversed in significant numbers.
Eh I dunno, a lot of devout Christians are obsessed with the end of the world and think that Christianity declining would be evidence that the end times are near. For those who aren't obsessed with the apocalypse, they'll say that Christianity is growing in the developing world and that there is hope that the developed world can be re-evangelised in the future.
@@jensraab2902 I wonder how those people would react if you told them that if atheism is a religion, it's the fastest grwoing religion in the world.
Should at least get the gear wheels spinning for a moment
For me, the greatest “threat” to my faith was learning about psychology and patterns of narcissistic abuse. A perfect god should not rely on abusive relationship dynamics to keep their followers in line.
If the descriptions of god in the Bible are indeed accurate, it’s not surprising that god’s followers pass down trauma to others. The internalized hate towards self (and by that, I mean the belief that humanity is worthless compared to god) has nowhere to go.
Going to church every week just to be reminded how you (and all humanity) is broken and fallen before being reminded that god loves you anyway is a textbook example of a trauma bond!
That is why I deconstructed and ultimately became agnostic/atheist. I will never allow myself to engage in an abusive relationship dynamic again, regardless of whether that is with other humans or a “divine being”.
This is also why so many believers can find themselves in abusive marriages, just as I did. In accepting a toxic relationship dynamic between god and themselves, believers are groomed to accept the same toxic dynamic from others, provided it can be justified with spirituality and scripture.
Excellent comment. I study psychology, soon to graduate, and I completely agree with you. The dynamic is not healthy at all
oooof that was all too relatable 😅
ive never been personally involved with Christianity, but i have been in an abusive relationship and that hits home. I've never really considered Christianity in that light before but heck it fits
YES! I'm so happy to see someone bring up narcissism and narcissistic abuse. You're right on point and this needs to be talked about more. A LOT more! Sadly, there are too many ignorant people who immediately reprimand you as an armchair psychologist if you bring it up, which is bullshit. Anyone can become familiar with the patterns of behavior seen in high level narcissists and recognize the effects of their abuse. There are also others who misunderstand or misuse the terminology. However, I believe the more education and awareness is brought to this topic, the less that will occur, so thank you for bringing it up in this forum.
I've actually been an atheist my entire life. I've had no exposure to religious ideologies within my family and minimal amongst my friends. I'm incredibly grateful for that, but I unfortunately ended up being the daughter of an abusive, narcissistic mother who made me her scapegoat from the day I was born. My older brother is the golden child and became very abusive towards me as well. I've always been a very curious person, and I always seek to learn more about most everything. I eventually figured out what was happening to me with regards to the abuse and how it wasn't my fault. I also started exploring the atheist community and trying to understand why people believe in a god. The more I learned, the more I noticed the exact same dynamics at play in peoples' relationship with their god and their church. The same toxic behavioral patterns are there that are found in narcissistic abuse.
It's the idea that you are born broken, and only complete and strict allegiance to a (suspiciously needy) god will fix you. And if you disobey, you suffer eternal torture. That's using fear to coerce and control. It's the same kind of conditional "love" that you have to earn by being perfectly obedient to the narcissist or else. You have to play along while in constant fear of the consequences if you don't. You become paranoid, self-sacrificing, and unwittingly end up dedicating all of your time to pleasing the narcissist while they give you nothing but mixed messages as to whether you're doing it right. You become a perfectionist and may develop maladaptive coping skills like substance abuse, reckless behavior, or self-harm. This is then used to prove how broken you really are. It just reinforces that mindset and makes you become more entrenched in the relationship. You feel lost and confused, but don't know why.
You are robbed of your sense of self and the narcissist gaslights you into believing things that aren't true (like you are unworthy and undeserving). You're made to believe that you deserve the bad things that happen to you. If something goes wrong, well it must be your fault and so you also learn to punish yourself for these supposed transgressions. You're convinced to accept that you can't survive without god or your church in your life so you're afraid to leave. You also develop a fear rejection and abandonment. You hyper-focus on the few good crumbs of this existence to justify tolerating the bad. This is exactly why people stay in abusive relationships. This is why it's so hard for Christians (or others) to walk away from their god and their faith.
You're trained to see the world in black & white or as good vs evil. You must suppress any attempts to find your true self or ask questions because that's supposedly "the devil leading you astray". That's also a manipulative fear tactic because of course god or the church doesn't want you asking questions or participating in normal human experiences like sex or college because that's a gateway to self discovery. Knowing yourself and your true worth robs them of their ability to maintain control over you. Growing your self-esteem makes you less pliable. They isolate you from the world and from those who would show you genuine love and acceptance.
You learn to make excuses to justify a narcissist's bad behavior just as people continually defend the horrific things god does in the bible and the vile abuses that occur within the church, as well as the religious-laden legislation that actively harms others. And, of course, if something goes wrong, it's your fault. You're always to blame and must seek perpetual forgiveness in ways that don't even make sense. All the while, the abuser acts like a persecuted victim whenever their behavior is called out or they fail to get what they want. If you attempt any form of rejection, be prepared for uncontrolled rage and retribution. It feels like a no-win scenario.
You become trauma bonded and codependent. You live with constant anxiety, self-doubt, and develop CPTSD. It's the SAME DAMN THING. It's narcissistic abuse only the narcissist is god and his enablers are the church and so many of the parasitic pastors and politicians within it who also share the same narcissistic behavior. But there is hope. People can break the cycle of abuse and recover. This forum is evidence of that and I'm excited for all the people who found their way here.
*As for me, there are a couple of psychologists on youtube who specialize in narcissistic abuse that I've gotten a lot of help from: Dr. Ramani Durvasula and Dr. Les Carter. It's not oriented towards religious deconstruction, but I think anyone in this forum looking for help will find its content very relevant to their recovery. 🙂
Forgot to add a youtuber called "Theremin Trees". It's also about narcissistic abuse recovery, but there's also a heavy overlap with religion. Excellent resource.
28:24 I love when they say the quiet part out loud. People's voices have become more democratize and it scares them. People don't just leave quietly and hide from fear.
It’s so creepy seeing her saying that and the others just nodding along and agreeing
Exactly, these types will constantly claim people are trying to take away their free speech because others are using their free speech.
Well, christianity is diametrically opposed to free speech, especially speech that opposes it's ever changing and subjective beliefs. This is evdienced by the sheer brutality and savagery with which christians tortured and slaghtered anyone who challenged christian beliefs and authority.
"You can check-out any time you like, but you can never leave!"
- The Eagles
My Sunday school question.
"Did Moses take all 3 species of giraffe" ?
I was 6 and was a big reader of animal books. The Sunday school teacher sent a note home with me that said.
"Please explain to Ray that he should not ask questions in Sunday school class"
" Deconstructed" on the spot!
I wonder how different things would have turned out for you if she'd known the standard creationist answer -- that they only needed to take one each "kind" -- or even dealt with your question with a modicum of grace and kindness. Maybe she did you a favor!
It’s interesting to me that deconstruction is being talked about as something that’s voluntary. For me, at least, it wasn’t. It happened because I couldn’t ignore the cherry picking, double speak and logical fallacies anymore, and once that happened, there was no going back even if I had wanted to. These people are acting like Regina George pulled up in her silver Lexus and said “get in, loser, we’re going deconstructing!”
It's been the same for me. Once I read the bible for myself, I was deeply disturbed by the things I read. All my life, I was not told the whole truth about God and Jesus. It shattered my world, but there is no way I can ignore it. I definitely wasn't looking to not be a Christian. It's just that there are things about God that bother me.
Hm, I dunno. I've heard from some people who, due to various factors like fear of losing their community, spent decades pushing aside those thoughts and choosing not to examine the nagging doubts. Like, not to call you out as though this is some sort of gothcha. But, "I couldn’t ignore the cherry picking, double speak and logical fallacies anymore" suggests that you were aware of the problems for a time and were choosing to ignore them. How much the decision to stop ignoring them was made by you and made for you is hard to say. Personally I don't think that any of our cognitive processes are completely independent of outside factors. Theoretically at least, you could have spent the rest of your life burying the questions.
I'll just say that I don't think that the apologists are necessarily wrong to talk about it like it's voluntary.
I do think that this is pretty damning for the apologist's position either way. If a person is feeling compelled to squash doubts and if apologists feel compelled to keep inventing excuses and strategies to get people to stop thinking about their doubts, I'm not sure that paints a particularly rosy picture of the belief system. Kinda just seems like an elaborate system of manipulation tactics.
Becoming an atheist was the most wonderful freeing experience of my entire life. Once I found out the truth about Christianity I walked away joyous knowing the absolute truth about the lies I was raised in. Free at last, free indeed.
@@mamabear1187 Hi. Congratulations on getting 🆓🎉💥🌋🌟🎉
@@mamabear1187I absolutely relate to your comment! Congratulations, and enjoy living life on your own terms!
“They weren’t fully in the faith”: ok well tell me why me and all my since deconstructed friends were literally willing to be martyrs for the faith? Was that not enough to be considered a true believer?
Exactly. I got bullied for it and took pride in it. Made me feel like I was on the right side. Looking back I despise that I let people do that to me.
Oh my God right?? I was raised on the tales of Cassie Bernall and Rachel Scott since I was 6. I was *homeschooled,* and I was convinced that I was somehow going to be martyred for my faith. And I *wanted* to be a martyr at the time. I idolized it, I glorified it, because I was taught by the adults in my life that this is what I should strive for.
Like get out of here, Christians, with this "you never believed" nonsense. The degree to which I believed was frightening.
Seriously, this. It wasn't until talking to a friend going through her deconstruction that this hit me, because she asked, "Why is it after Columbine, our youth groups, in different states, both asked us if we were willing to die for Jesus? You know, instead of, how we could prevent this from happening again?" Definitely raised and firmly believed enough to be in a youth group, proudly proclaiming a readiness to be martyred for Christ by a school shooter; if that's not 'fully in', I don't know what is.
Oh crikey, I was DESPERATE to die for my Catholic faith.
This!
Wanting to change a word reminds me so much of creationists. They come up with their own lingo, so that when you look it up online, you will only find christian websites defending creationism. Its very clever and also very dishonest.
The fact that these people think morality is an "emotional" issue is so telling about how they think
Here are some more facts to ponder:
Do we make decision based on "logic, critical thinking and reasoning" as popular belief?
There is a tiny gland called amygdala that respond to fear and regulate emotion. 95% of decision-making is subconscious that driven by emotion. People with damaged amygdala unable to make decision if given options.
"Doctrine of Demons" sounds like the title of a really awesome metal album.
One of the biggest breakthroughs in my journey was when I heard somebody ask "What elements of your faith are outside the boundries of interrogation?" and having the realization that I was refusing to question certain things.
"Deconstruction is a meaningless word that can be twisted into meaning anything you want it to" and then in the same sentence, saying Postmodernism as if that means woke...
I first found it when reading early to mid twentieth century French novelists, poetry and philosophy. But then again, I am an effing intellectual.
I'm sad to see a lot of artists I loved as a Christian really lose themselves... or maybe its just that I've found myself.
You put into words exactly how I was feeling
@@greysonkeller5418 funny enough, really early in the video I was thing of John Cooper and skillet. And then of course he came up.
@TheIronDonkey of course 😂, when i was younger, all I listened to was these bands and artists and now I don't listen at all lol. Now I listen to sleep token
In my experience there is no self to find.
Well said, and...same. As soon as the video started with, "a former member of ZoeGirl" I groaned that a member of a group I was hooked on had gone off the deep end.
This is a bit of a tangent, but their rhetoric made me think of this. I'm an atheist who was raised very secular and grew up in a very culturally and religiously diverse environment (Hawaii). When I moved to the East Coast at 13 I was surrounded almost entirely by Christians. When people found out I not only was an atheist but had never believed in any god, the common reaction was confusion. Like meeting someone who just didn't have religion as part of their life was a completely foreign concept.
This talk reminded me of that. I wonder if part of their fear of deconstruction is the idea that the person will have a hole in them where their faith was and it will have to be filled with something else, something bad. Like demons.
There doesn't have to be a hole at all.
There is no faith that can withstand a genuine and desperate desire to understand what is _actually true._
@Mark73 Love this.
I think it’s worth mentioning that alisa is a PROFESSIONAL Christian. Even if she is being honest in her belief, there is a major bias built into her thinking. My personal opinion is that many many pastors get caught in this trap. It takes some of us a long time to see thru the lies (it did me) and if your income is based on those lies you find yourself economically trapped
@davidvernon3119
Yes. And not just economically trapped, but socially trapped, trapped in an identity, purpose and role, etc.
Many threats.
@@canwelook good points
That is a real problem, and the Freedom from Religion Foundation has a specific program to retrain clergy and get them jobs outside the religion so they can have the financial freedom to leave.
@@artemisia4718 thanks for letting me know. That is a cause i could get behind
Try the Clergy Project if you find yourself in this situation and want to get out
Philosophy student here - pretty sure Alisa means post STRUCTURALIST not post modernist. There is a difference, and post structuralism focuses on basically on moral subjectivism and believing there’s no objective truth that exists throughout all time/place. Foucault is a big scholar in this theory.
I think Alisa just wants to sound smart and not use the dog whistle if “cultural Marxism”
They’re not smart enough to exist within nuance and uncertainty
Nah, that's the issue with dog whistles. They're being used so often in the open it's difficult to know who understands the reference and who thinks they understand it
It's like with the globalist or lizard people conspiracy theories. They're very similar to antisemitic conspiracy theories. They're often used by antisemites to spread their ideas without the baggage of being called a nzi. As the conspiracies spread many non antisemitic people start using those phrases without any understand of it. So you end up in a situation it's impossible to tell who is a neo nzi or not. Either way nzi ideas spread
Was half-asleep when I started listening, and thought to myself, "What does this have to do with the history/philosophy of art?" 😅
@@Angie753I couldn't agree more. Many Christians are, as Kierkegaard explains, in a state of Anxiety and don't know it. Being one myself, seeing the cognitive dissonance in Christian circles is extremely disheartening. They truly believe critically thinking outside the realm of Christianity is sinful. Please send help. 😂😂😂
She makes such an effort in sounding smart that it annoys me A LOT
8:18, Alisa's rant here is kinda true, you can deconstruct your beliefs and then reconstruct them. Most people don't reconstruct their religious beliefs, because they learn that "It has to be true" isn't good enough to convince them that it IS true.
That's the danger for religious people and their organizations, most people who start to examine their religious beliefs through deconstruction do NOT reconstruct, but leave their faith altogether, taking $$$s away from religions, and also reminding the reconstructers that maybe they are still mistaken in their beliefs.
Did Alisa really deconstruct? I mean, way back in the before times, Christians would claim they were satanic high priests or something. Then, they claimed they were edgy atheists. Alisa is claiming that she deconstructed. I'm uncertain of her deconstruction.
If she really did deconstruct, I want to see how she was deconstructing. What was her base metric that she was using to re-evaluate Christianity? feelings of disgust when confronted with Christians behaving badly? Did she really read the evidence for a Moses character? Did she re-read that Bible and notice things such as discrepancies?
For example, my base metric was reality. Did a global flood occur? Could it occur? Where's the evidence of a global flood? Those were the questions I was asking because I should have been able to find physical evidence in this world. I know what a flood does. What the area should look like. The world has had various local floods. So I even have access to what an ancient flood should have done. Volume of water? How would this rain have occurred and where did that water go? I mean, there's geological evidence to prove or disprove this kind of story.
I just don't believe her. Once you see how fragile the framework is, you're acutely aware of it. You don't rock the boat if you want to remain in that ideology. It's not like deconstruction is a linear process or even a quick process. People can stop at various stages. They can reconstruct to another faith system.
This just feels like satanic panic, evil atheist.. it's just an update where the conservative steals the words of the left and perverts them so there's no meaning. We can't have deep conversations with a group that deliberately misuses words. (and yeah, I am granting her the intelligence to know what she's doing. She can pick stupid but then.. should anyone listen to stupid? )
@@jenniferhunter4074Yeah, it’s kind of a depressing way to approach someone’s claim about their own life experience but I can’t help but feel the same way when prominent evangelicals talk about their past struggles with the faith. It just feels like a story crafted to assuage the doubts and anxieties of others rather than to express anything candid or vulnerable about themselves.
But I also feel that the culture of evangelicalism is fundamentally dishonest and the ones who value honesty are often the ones who “deconstruct” and leave.
@@leonardpaulson I feel sorry for them. They're forced to evangelize and hide any doubts. They're constantly on show. There is that hidden profit motive (well, not so hidden to be honest). And the fear. You can sense their fear. It's almost tangible.
That's why they freak out when people choose another religion or walk away. It's part of their identity and how they ground themselves in their interpretation of reality. They need these stories to be true and the more people participate, the more they feel it is true. I mean, it's a fallacy but it is comforting to be with the herd. They're probably high conformist personality tendencies in this group. (If atheism ever becomes popular, we'd have the same problem. Conformists have a problem separating themselves from the herd and breathing.)
I agree. the current culture of evangelism (right wing evangelism to be precise) does seem deceptive. It's understandable. They're scared. They can't kill us. They can't limit our speech... yet.. They can't drag us back to a more ancient moral understanding. And their fellow believers are shitty evangelist conservative Christians... the worst form of advertisement.
Christianity could focus on more positive ideas and be more attractive but they have to ditch some of the core concepts. They have to do an update.
Why are any deconstruction channels a threat? If these believers have absolute conviction in their beliefs what’s the problem?
Surely, if they perceive them as ‘threats’ then doesn’t that beg the question, why? 😮
they do not want to lose money and power
@@narcissistinjurygiver2932 ahh yes, of course! The true meaning of belief :)
I got a bible app ad when I started this video... Churches have too much money for advertising.
It's funny that people can only speak to god inside their own heads, it's as if that's the only place that he exists...
Yes,god only exists in your head only.Not in mine.
in my head, there is no God, there is only Crom.
jup. but people will ofcourse have issues with us being honest in telling them its all in their head. a classic example of cognetive dissonence
finding secular rituals to mark stages of life and death is important. Here in Uk we see a trend after a car accident to have flowers placed at the location. I think funerals are important (no need for any religious content, but a focus point for the mourning)
Huh, so when Alisa said now everyone has a megaphone about their doubts and stuff that's pretty telling. They're upset that they can no longer silence dissenting voices.
She said: " a deconstructing youth is one who say's, I wanna be one that follow the bible, that follow truth"
That sentence shows the need for deconstruction. If you TAKE FOR GRANTED that everything in the bible is THE SAME AS the truth, you HAVEN'T deconstructed. You have, uncritically, let someone sneak in a PREMISE in your thinking (the bible is the truth) without critically evaluating whether that truly is the case.
If you ask yourself:
How do I know if those people who spoke/wrote/collected/rejected and translated the bible, were led by god?
How do I know if something is true?
Is obedience to the strangers who wrote the bible, the same as obedience to god?
Are believers believing the bible or USING the bible to promote what they ALREADY believe?
Etc, etc, etc.
THEN you are deconstructing. You are deconstructing your ASSUMPTIONS. What ANSWERS you settle on is another matter altogether
@53:12 "On both sides"
Can you give some examples of people 'on the left' accusing their opponents on the right of consorting with demons?
If Evangelical Christians listened to people deconstructing with compassion half as much as they talked about them, they would be a lot more successful in their goals.
No they wouldn't. They wouldn't get any more converts because as annoying as it is their callous rudeness and lack of basic empathy and social aptitude isn't the actual problem; it's the absurdity of their claims. If they listened with compassion, half of them would quickly end up 'deconstructing' too.
Evangelical Christianity isn't the only Christianity out there. Believers should avoid making an idol out of a particular set of dogmatic beliefs.
For example, is remarriage to be always considered adultery? Sexual immorality is grounds for divorce and remarriage is permissible. However, to divorce and remarry without sexual immorality having occurred is discouraged. Jesus warned against the practice of divorcing and remarrying multiple times, since during His time on earth divorce was often initiated by men looking to get rich off the accumulation of bridal dowries. It was not easy for a woman to divorce her husband because of the socioeconomic situation then common for women without families, but a man could simply declare a divorce and he would stay with the dowry, while his wife would be destitute. If she was getting divorced on grounds of adultery, it was worse.
@@hananokuni2580 Amen. When I started to come out as trans, of course that forced me to radically deconstruct the Conservative Evangelical interpretation of Christianity, but I didn't de-convert from the broader faith, because I was able to find local affirming Mainline churches led by gay pastors. Liberation Theology makes a lot more sense to me as way to understand the significance of the Gospel.
I started my deconstructing journey from Catholicism in 2019, but i didn't have a word for what I was doing until about 2022-23. Knowing that word has helped me find a safe space to communicate my thoughts, and connect with people who encourage everyone to think for themselves. I have never felt like someone was shoving their "deconstructed" beliefs down my throat (unlike Catholicism/Christianity). It's been an opportunity to have open conversations about what different people believe and having a space to say "thats so good that you're taking those steps to discover what's good for you".
Nomatter what its named, thinking freely, caring for yourself and others, exploring and widening your worldview, and allowing yourself to be honest about how you feel about what you believe (and dont believe) is a beautiful thing.
I think deconstruction has become publicly "popular" because its a way for people to learn and decide for themselves rather than be forced to believe something and never question.
Thank you for your video! It was a great listen :)
So funny how they default to the Bible being truth, when the whole point of most deconstructing is putting that into question
If there is no space to acknowledge that the bible was obviously written by flawed human beings a long time ago, then the faith as a whole is screwed, because those are usually the first exploratory questions true believers happen upon.
Yeah 😆, seemed like they were trying to say "you can doubt your Bible, but just make sure you don't doubt your Bible"
Listening to you guys helps me to be a better Christian. Thank you!
Alisa talking about using sensitive language while keeping the spiritual warfare in the back of her mind gave me chills. It's such familiar language from my childhood, but I haven't heard it said explicitly like that for so long. How I can expect to be seen as a full person by people who see me as a pawn of their spiritual enemy?
I dont think spiritual warfare is not physical warfare with people, but warefare with the demonic evil entities. How do see it?
Christians’ and conservatives’ obsession with definitions can get downright silly. “Deconstruction” is literally anytime you deconstruct something, regardless of what you do afterward. Whether you installed a toilet or dismantled a car, you still used a damn wrench.
it might be a baby and bath water situation....
"Deconstruction" is to take something apart carefully, piece by piece, the opposite of "construction", which is to put something together carefully, piece by piece. Anyone who has done even a cursory review of Latin will know the meanings at a glance. The _de-_ is a prefix meaning "off" or "backing away from" and _con-_ means "with" or "together". The _-struction_ is from the Latin _-strûctiô-,_ related to the verb _struô_ that means "to put together" or "to pile up". This is similar to the English word _strewn,_ which actually means "laid down haphazardly or in disorganized fashion."
I reckon that those "deconstructing the faith" do so in pursuit of the truths behind it, regardless of whether it results in their abandoning or embracing it.
These are people whose foundational epistemology is based on destructive obsessions.
so, it's silly on the surface, but is actually a very insidious control tactic. they're not being transparent about their core issue here--they're treating the word "deconstruction" as a gateway drug/social contagion re: the questioner's exposure to online content/digital spaces. same wheelhouse as digital radicalisation [my thesis subject]. her mention of the hashtag at the beginning wasn't accidental.
Taylor, your statement at 26:36 is brilliant. Claiming social justice results and reframing it - what an excellent insight. Thank you for that!
I've seen Christians try to take the credit for ending slavery 🤦
The part where Drew mentions the murder fantasy and not denying God so that you would live really hit home with me. Doing some self reflection a few months ago I had a memory come up of being 8-9 after the book She Said Yes was released... Then I literally remember my evangelical/pentacostal church praying over us kids and sunday school classes being based on how we should never deny the existence of God and we should just get unalived by school intruders..... it was something I had totally blocked out and repressed but that memory and a few more came back so vividly that it overtook me and I had some real anxiety and depressive issues flare up. It is crazy abusive to do this to children. It has been over 18 years or so now and I am still having flare ups in my religious trauma resurface.
15 minutes in and I'm so angry at them. And this absolutely affirms my decision to remain outside the church. These people go through so many mental gymnastics to keep their faith
You should pity them not feel angry at them.
"Get rid of beliefs that are harmful and untrue." Well,,,there goes the whole MAGA Christian Nationalism mindset.
And there goes gender theory and all the falsehoods of the lgbtq agenda
Indeed. MAGA evangelicals are enabling a former president who has been found civilly liable for r*pe and is as of today a convicted felon found guilty on all 34 counts. Evangelicalism is morally inferior and defective. I'm glad it's declining.
If being disillusioned of a lie by becoming less ignorant is painful, then the solution is to stop telling the lie, not to remain ignorant.
Christianity crates liberal democracies because they aren't allowed to create theocracies. Christianity is the only thing stopping tyranny.
We will be an is lamic republic or else a Christian democracy.
And no.. protestants and catholics aren't profoundly different .. if it's early protestant.
14:20 their point about "if you're questioning your faith, go seek answers from your parents" almost never results in genuine answers, because 90% of the time, the reason you're part of said religion is exclusively because of your parents, and if they find out you're no longer interested in said faith, they will often weaponize anything and everything possible in order to keep you in said faith. Not out of malice, but because that's how they were raised themselves, and most Christian sects believe that anything different is a threat to the soul. I was about 12 or 13 when I knew for certain I no longer believed, and it took about 3 years of failed coercion & force for my parents to accept I wasn't coming back. Now, 17ish years later, they're all secular too.
I would say my recent journey through therapy, diagnoses, and deconstruction, is predicated on the fact that I - a previously undiagnosed ADHDer - could never perform the adequate behaviors that would allow me to fit in to the high control, dysfunctional, nuclear family I grew up in; and that I always had my motivations prescribed to me as a result.
As someone who has basically been looking deep into the maw of deconversion and had it stare back for a while now, I can say with almost complete certainty that the evangelical Christian habit of telling people what they think and believe as if they know better than the person they’re dehumanizing is possibly the most toxic aspect of it.
Sure, the high control aspect is bad.
Yeah, the fear-mongering is horrible.
Basically being told that you don’t know your own thoughts and feelings, and having people operate under the assumption that the person “in the wrong” isn’t actually sincere in their experience, is a special level of hell.
No wonder my experience has seen so few neurodivergent people in churches. I can’t imagine how much worse a hell it is for people who couldn’t even manage the marginal level of functionality that I achieved by making my self as nonexistent as possible.
I low key think the church doesn't want any of us who are neurodivergent to exist. So instead of outright saying it, they dehumanize and manipulate so we don't even trust ourselves.
I am at a point now where even if God was real(he isn't), I wouldn't choose him. After re-reading the bible, I think he tries to disguise that he's actually the villain.
This comment almost made me cry. This was such a huge part of my experience, powerfully stated. Good for you and every one of us getting the help and validation we deserved ❤
It’s stunning that none of them are really looking at WHY people want to deconstruct. Like maybe the problem is with the church not those deconstructing.
Yeah, I've been making that point to Christians for many years. Every time a survey comes out showing a decline in Christianity, a bunch of articles appear alternately blaming the state of the culture and questioning the accuracy of the statistic -- a favorite is the "hidden believer" who no long attends church regularly, or attends a house church, but is still a born-again Christian. They never appear to use the data as a cause for self-reflection.
There is so much gold in this video. Thanks so much guys!
I love that you guys cut down the viseo you're reacting to, and still ended up with an hour long episode. Love the long ones!
Eyyyyyyyyyy!!
I've noticed that apologetics use the same tactic "i was an atheist" or "i was gnostic" "i was deconstructing" all lies
"Don't deconstruct!" Is basically the new "don't ask questions!"
My husband was raised catholic and they literally told him to stop asking questions when he was in CDC. I think he unnerved them.
Then it's always funny how they claim "I was an atheist because I just hated god". Showing that they don't know what an atheist is.
So warn out and you see it a mile away .they mean they shared a white claw with someone and said they were an atheist for the night
I was told that doubt was a sin, and it was all downhill from there.
Love the long reaction videos from you guys! Legitimately some of the only creators where watching an hour long vid is a breeze :)
I love how they say this is where kids are then proceed to say Millennials like the youngest millennials aren't 28 years old at this point.
If Christianity was so strong and powerful and the belief system was built upon a strong foundation it would be able to withstand questioning. When people actually start to ask questions and the answers don’t stand up to scrutiny that leads to changes in their belief system. There shouldn’t be any fear regarding questioning.
Taylor and Drew, would love for you two to do a chat premiere for some of your videos. Would love to share and hear real time reactions!
We’ll keep that in my mind for future vids! Thanks for the feedback!
@theantibot not a problem! Love your work!
This would be so fun!
That be amazing
"mom, dad i wanna explore the world" - "sure buddy, here's a nicely packed backpack. Have fun" - *leaves garden* "HEY COME BACK! NOT LIKE THAT" is what i hear
I’m sure the fact that she and her husband are musicians whose whole livelihood depends on their “ministry” had nothing at all to do with her return to evangelical Christianity.
"Don't say you're deconstructing. Deconstruction has no assumed conclusion. Say you're reforming so people know there's a limit to what you're willing to reevaluate."
I am so glad you two did this video. The specific point that was about how Sean gives off that faux kindness and then does an about-face immediately and changes absolutely nothing. It's literally every experience we have with "nice" Christians. "Oh I'm so sorry you had those experiences. We have to do better." And then over the next decade there are zero changes. It's unbelievably infuriating.
Apologists as lawyers is a great analogy. The lawyer's job is NOT to find the truth but rather to put on the strongest case possible for his/her client and attack the other side's case and evidence no matter how good it is. In the legal system it's the judge or jury who decide what's "true" after the lawyers each put on as one sided a case as they can.
While scholars do have biases, the enterprise of scholarship and science at least *aims* to find what is actually true and the case about the world - not to lawyer for a set position regardless of the other side's evidence
As an apologist, I do know many who do that on both sides. I argue my case, and for what I know to be true. I wouldn't argue for something I wasn't willing to die for. I had someone do it for me, so I return the favor and answer questions truthfully. I know Christ died and rose again, and I know from my personal experinces that He is Lord.
Just starting to watch this, from the thumbnail alone my reaction is that faith that cannot face the valid questions is not a faith of value.
I say this as a Christian, and also as a church leader (ok the far right Christians will call me a dodgy liberal).
I teach that God is big enough for our questions and doubts. If not then your God is too small.
Evangelical/Literalist Christianity is only one tiny part of the church, and the assumption that only they have the 'true faith' is both excluding and leading people to feel that their valid experiences in faith are not acceptable.
If God were to assess only those in 20th century evangelical churches (who said the magical sinners' prayer) as true believers; or even only protestants reading the Bible for themselves; then where does that leave centuries of illiterate; or those who believed before the modern Bible and the evangelical church; or even those who trust in God with almost no info (thief on the cross anyone?)
If only those following your church's rules of what makes a Christian are acceptable to God then that feels horrific to me. At least sects like JWs openly declare that only those following their rules is counted; in reality many churches act this way without that open statement.
Whilst this may feel unfair to those who want to be distanced from christian faith (and I do want to respect that). I feel that when the church/christians have damaged people leading them away from faith, then God is basically on their side and has no issue with someone rejecting that distortion of faith.
Basically I believe God's grace is much wider and open than so many of their followers recognise.
I'm an atheist, someone who deconstructed before there was deconstruction (did it on my own).
It's your segment of Christianity that I find has a place for those who still believe AND provides a positive outcome for those within and for those outside.
Thank you for your intellectual take
That’s funny because any Bible thumping Christian would say you’re not really Christian. How do I know that you might ask, because I tried it myself. Bible thumping Christians don’t believe in any thing that goes against their beliefs.
The literalists have a very unimpressive imagining of God. When I still believed, my imagined God could have written the entire history of the universe at the subatomic level at the moment of its expansion. My God was clearly smarter than their god. My God also didn't care about who I had sex with. or what foods I ate. or which fabrics were appropriate, or how I should wear my hair, but those things would be so trivial and beneath my God. Their literalist god is still the storm god flinging angry bolts of vengeance, something an omnipotent entity would never need to engage in.
This message at 7:39 is very much like what I grew up with: "It's OK to ask questions as long as you always find the answer is God (Jesus). Not much has changed.
These people are such virulent grifters, who knows what they really think. Not worth taking seriously.
That's a really good point about how emotional conversions are always praised while emotional deconversions are seen as illegitimate.
The irony of them calling deconstruction spaces an echo chamber 😆
19:27 This is such a weird phenomenon within Evangelicalism. Me and some friends of mine came back from Passion 2024, and while we were there, after one of the sessions I asked the question, "Do you believe there is only one right theology to understand who God is," to my friend group, and their responses shocked me to my core. Not only did they believe that there is one right theology, but they also said that "It has to be this way because we have the one true God and so we have a responsibility to showcase that in our theology. Unfortunately, due to sin, however, this is an ongoing feat that is hard to attain, which is why there is grace."
I sat there in shock because they are so accustomed to "objective truth" that they have forced God into an objective box that can only color within the lines they prescribe to him. They also say that not realizing regardless of how "objective" someone believes they are regarding Christianity and God, they say that "objective" statement being a subject themselves. Put differently, how one comes to understand theology is built on 4 things: Scripture, Tradition, Reason, and Experience. Most people who rely on scripture and tradition as a way to best understand God, believe themselves (such as many evangelicals today), have the key to the "right" theology. This is one reason I believe they can seem so tribal, dogmatic, and echo-chambered in nature. When people lean one way or another in terms of forming their theology, they can be (not always), skewed. Take Conservativism and Progressivism as an example. One side holds to scripture and tradition while the other holds to reason and experience. I argue that one should have a balanced view and allow all aspects to be the guide when forming their theology.
Unfortunately, what we see, however, is the demonization from evangelicals when any Christian doesn't conform to their take on theology as just that, their take among many.
Yes, you can believe in Jesus and believe systemic racism is an issue.
Yes, you can believe in God and also believe homosexuality as an orientation, isn't sinful because what was talked about in the Bible was pederasty, sexual violence, and male prostitution, not an orientation.
Yes, it is possible to love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself.
Yes, You can hold to your personal convictions without being a douchebag to everyone else who doesn't.
Yes, you can believe Jesus broke every curse, and also call out white cis-hetero patriarchy.
These things aren't mutually exclusive, and the sooner ALL Christians realize this, the sooner we can all properly represent Christ to a world that needs it.
Coda: I told my friend about the formation of one's theology and how it had tangible effects in culture historically, specifically toward interpretations that allowed things like slavery, racism, and lynching to be normalized in white Christian spaces. They believed they were right because of scriptural interpretation and tradition. So when people just agree to things like, "There is only one right theology to understand God, " without doing any introspection or cultural analysis of what kind of implications one is believing by saying that is not only ignorant of certain realities, but privileged and dangerous.
I’m in my 50s and left my evangelical faith in my early 40s. I was not a practicing Christian for decades before that really. There is no name for what I am now. What I say I am is meaningless, what I do is what matters. I don’t really have any beliefs or faith and just go with the flow. I don’t use these words that are now floating around like deconstruction. People are always changing. It’s very healthy to deconstruct any fixed beliefs. I drew a line in the sand and let friends and family know I was not a Christian. This never ends well. They will put an insane amount of pressure on you, ostracize and judge you. There is nothing to say really. If you want to maintain some connection to people of faith, it might not be the best thing to draw lines in the sand. The Evangelical mandate is one of violence at its core. That’s intolerable in a Republic. I hope they come to their senses, but I don’t think they will. It’s life or death to the baby boomers and they will take us all down with them. The receding of their religion has amped up their violence proportionally. Ironic a religion of love would degrade to one of intolerant violence. For them, this is war. There can be no compromise. They don’t realize the war is in themselves.
Okay, I’m in the process of deconstructing but this is way off. Yes, evangelicals can be very pushy and judgmental. Also in its modern form it’s rarely violent. Islam is the only modern religion with a legitimate violence problem. They all might be wrong, that doesn’t mean they’re all violent.
They're too obsessed with wording. People dont need the word "deconstruction" to deconstruct, it's going to happen anyway for most people with any level of empathy and critical thinking. My mom had a period where she didn't want to be Christian anymore because she had issues with the theology she had been subjected to and after a few years of reflecting and finding her own interpretations of things that felt contradictory to her (like an all loving god creating a physical place for people to burn for all eternity) she found a church that made her feel like it improved her life and started identifying with the religion again. She doesn't really use the term "a Christian" in reference to herself anymore because she doesn't like a lot of the assumptions that get made about her beliefs based on that lable. She goes to church and is an active participator in her community, and she lives in a way that aligns with her values. She didn't use the word deconstructing, or reforming, or anything else for that matter. She just did it. It doesn't matter what you call it, people will question their beliefs whether they have a word for it or not. If these people think that the word "reforming" is going to change that, they are delusional.
The people who live in echo chambers looking outside, and calling the outside an echo chamber.
Guys, you're helping me so much to find my place and my voice in this confusing world. That's all I need to say. Just thank you!
If you want to deconstruct, you don't go to church and talk to the pastor. You go look for alternative opinions and viewpoints and people who already went through the process.
These guys are trying to Rebrand deconstruction and control the narrative, and create a Persona as if they are unbiased
Deconstruction wasn’t something I had any control over. I’ve tried to deconstruct my deconstruction, and figure out what happened. I’m not even able to pinpoint when it started. It feels less like something that had an origin, and more like a natural progress of evangelicalism. I was always going to end up here. I don’t see how I could have chosen any other path that would have lead me anywhere other than where I am now. I don’t think evangelicals know what deconstruction means or even how it happens.
Basically "free thought is a threat to our religion"
They would do better to ask why we are deconstructing and leaving.
I am in the midst of deconstructing and it’s painful. Did it originate in a feeling, a question about if what I’ve believed for over 50 years may not be correct, in whole or in part? Yes, it did. That doesn’t make it any less valid. It is the rigor and intellectual integrity I apply to the process that matters. And I’ve done post graduate work in theology, and was a missionary.
It's almost like words can have more than one definition. Someone alert the dictionary.
Hey! Love you two! I hope youre doing well.
I was a Christian for 17 years, until I was 31 and a semester away from finishing a ministry degree. I asked questions, always have, that didn’t jive. It is because of the tools and research methods, that I learned in seminary courses, that led to me walking away from the church. Hermeneutics and for example, comparing a singular passage and reading it (translated from the Hebrew or Koine Greek) and seeing how this passage has been altered to fit societal view points, led to me to question everything being taught by the Church.
This is equivalent to the Catholic Church saying in like the 1500s “oh shit people can read and access the Bible in their mother tongue guess now, we can’t just say whatever we like anymore”
as an older gen z who is very much a legal adult since 5 years back or so I take major offence to being called a kid (around 18:00) and I don't think many millennials would call themselves kids given they're older than me
Thank you so much for reacting to this!
I was watching that podcast and it just filled me with rage
47:55 I never had "enemies" until I became a Christian.
Dear Hosts, great, informative video! As a medievalist (English lit & hist) I want to type a long note here but for my own mental health I will try to be as concise as possible. All evangelicalism, and especially the by far most common 19th century forms that promote a-biblical/extra-biblical garbage like the “Rapture,” written by one of the very few Bible texts in which the author names himself as - John of Patmos - who is absolutely NOT John the Apostle (tons of work on the language and provenance prove this). Catholics (I’m a former catholic now agnostic) and mainline Protestants use very similar forms of the Bible dating back to the Council of Nicaea. Then we have the Latin Vulgate, which served as THE Bible for centuries, then the Wycliffite English vernacular partial bible, then the post-Reformation King James translation, which is the least sound in terms of language but is (perhaps) the best written and most poetically lovely version, etc. The sudden massive interest in the Rapture stuff (for me a 150 years is relatively “sudden”) and belief in an impending judgment - which sadly most evangelical types think is happening in their own lifetimes despite the endless evidence to the opposite of this narcissistic belief system - has caused massive problems for Christians. This nuttery has led people to lies and false prophets - especially mega church promises of wealth and money (see Africa) and avoiding medical doctors even when a child is actively dying (see everywhere as there have been many legal issues that have been brought against these parents - one set of parents starved their infant to death to “drive out its demon”)