"You behave so disrespectfully and coercive", my dad, who shamed, demeaned and pressured me about anything from adolescence into adulthood. Then I became less patient and more aggressive in time with growing despair. Bonus projections: "You let people down all the time," "you just sit around doing nothing," while that's exactly him, and still I found myself more and more discouraged and reclusive. "you never come out with the truth to me", while I get increasingly reserved about sharing anything with him. "You never carry through, lose interest quickly, and can't get along with anyone"...
Sorry I don’t meant to make light of it. It’s damaging beyond words…At 36 my only strategy is to be able to laugh about it or I can’t have any contact at all.
I can sense the relief the Borderline gets from getting a rise out of me during one of these splits/projections. I no longer fight back, I employ the gray-rock method and appear completely emotionless. One time, I gray-rocked her and it sent her into a crazed rage, her coping mechanism was interrupted and she couldn't handle it.
Superb explanation. Thanks for making this one. The only minor feedback I have is it might be helpful if you speak a little slower so that it's easier to process all this information as we listen.
I really appreciate knowing there’s a specific concept for what I experience with my family member who is likely borderline. I see this play out now without being swept in, because I can sense the chain of events after suddenly becoming the “all bad.” It is very harmful to experience the things said that are posed to induce the behavior she’s seeking from me. At this point she is not relentless past a handful of accusatory/ disparaging text messages, but it does hurt each time although it’s become once in a blue moon.
Pattie Hughes (Glen Close) does a lot of projected identification in Damages TV series. I’ve witnessed/experienced it, so I can now see it onscreen. The target feels confused after, and aware of having been emotionally manipulated. Is it the same as baiting, wilful provocation and reactive abuse? All try to induce an angry/shameful reaction.
Lol I love this channel. But the speed talking is uniquely frustrating, because setting the playback speed to 0.75× somehow makes him sound unbearably slow 😂 So that old standby isn't really an option either 😭
Great video, thank you so much! I'm trying to heal from a breakup with a friend with BPD who lashed out on me. Tbh the experience was super weird. I still doubt myself. When she first accused me of all these things I hadn't said, I felt as though I was going crazy. Had I really done all those things? Was I overly attached and possessive as she claimed? Had I been super rude to her as she claimed? It feels unnatural to just assume she was twisting my words and outright lying and that I was completely innocent. That's not how I usually think. I like to think that if I get in an argument, it's probably my fault as much as the other person's because that's how relationships work: it's a two-way street. Then come this crazy half an hour monologue from my best friend about how rotten I am and how I persecute her. I still doubt myself.
See thomas ogden definition. Hes sounds like hes talking about projection. It can be intrapsychicic or behavioral. The feeling when someone in your family dies and no one speaks and you feel like shit. Simple. What the patient doesn't wish to process but acts out.
In light of the re-inactment and the component of shame/trauma, it's basically a mental virus. I think double-bind communication is related in that way.
Excellent video and information! Thank you for sharing. So much easier to navigate through this life when there are helpful videos like this! You talk kind of fast for me, but I try my best to keep up. Thanks again. Very helpful!
This is so interesting! I think a good example of this is in the scene in the The Sopranos when Gloria blames her flat tire on Tony and evokes a reaction out of him. Really well done video! Can’t wait for more! 😊
I had a bpd friend who used to do this kind of thing to me many times. However I never internalized her projections and always stayed calm and acted reasonably, which only seemed to escalate the episode. It was as if the fact that I wasn’t giving in to her accusations and losing my shit in the way she surely would have if the situation were reversed, only made her feel the need to harp on it even more to justify to herself that I was indeed whatever awful thing she was saying I was and she was going to prove it. Unfortunately for her I have incredibly thick skin and never gave her the satisfaction she was looking for, until there was nothing left for her to do but let it go and move on to something/someone else. Don’t let them steamroll you with their bullshit.
Hey, great video Where does the content of the projection coming from? Does Shay thinks Leo is (supposed to be) aggressive or is Shay aggressive himself but can’t own it? Thank you 😊
Mother & father projected their badness onto each other & my brother, then me. My brother made it to 32, then gave up. This is very real. And the cause of much of so-called "mental illness".
This is why i often try to keep any atheist leaning to myself. Idk how many times i get stuck in their beliefs 😆 but could be two way street for stability Žižek discussion of ideology good on this
So does this not always apply with aggression? So say rejection or perhaps loving, so people project people love them due to past experiences or that people will automatically reject them due to past experiences? Just any emotional state being projected onto another when it might not be the case? And if so and the projection does not become fulfilled, say love for example, if the other party does not love them, do they keep up the behavior until they do or would they discontinue the behavior? Or are these the situations where the individual becomes a stalker and the courts and law need to become involved to handle the situation?
Hey man - any advice how to behave in the moment when someone is using projective identification on you? Is there any way to make them 'snap out of it'? Or maybe, if it's a loved one, a partner etc. - would reacting in a loving manner, hugging them silently, or something, could that help?
I literally just experienced this with my gf less than an hour ago. Then she accused me of being the projectionist. Unfortunately it wasn't a loving type of projection, but a "you never listen to my opinion, you always interrupt me, you start yelling" as she is engaging in that very behavior while I sit and listen to her. So frustrating.
Gaslighting is an important term that describes an actual phenomenon. Gaslighting is an important phenomenon, and has broader social implications such as in "medical gaslighting." Also, it would be less distracting to use more generic examples of people as opposed to celebrities.
The example using Shia & Leo is probably the only thing that re-engaged me as I was beginning to zone out 😅 I think he avoided specifically referring to the word “gaslighting” simply because, at this point, there are many valuable but also some misleading assumptions that come along with it. he was able to convey how gaslighting plays a role in the entire process, though. most people, I think, assume that the act of gaslighting someone is a conscious process whereas the gaslighting that occurs in projective identification is often subconscious without the intentionality to confuse whomever they are protectively identifying. People also associate gaslighting with acts of emotional abuse whenever I have seen it referenced online in recent years & he doesn’t want people to jump to that conclusion since projective identification (and thus, unintentional forms of gaslighting) occur in day to day life and not just in narcissistic and borderline dynamics of abusive relationships…and sometimes for the good feels like at a concert etc
this is why i can't be around my parents. They put pressure on me to experience MYSELF as ''sensitive'' and ''Paranoid'' and ''emotional'' when all of this stuff comes from them. My brother told me I was cutting off my nose to spite my face but they tell him how rational and logical he is.
the explanation and graphics are more than amazing, but the combination of the recording and the speech timbre makes it quite difficoult to understand, at least for a non native english speaker. It almost feels like it's whispered very fast with a bad spelling
I agree...the dialogue is so fast (my first language is English) that I had difficulty following to the point where I felt that I was hearing the sound but not the content.
Yeah- depends on how loose your definition is of projective identification, but some people think it plays a subtle role in all interactions, in which case there definitely is "positive" aspects
very helpful, however i have one remark... you describe the act of viewing someone in a distorted way, determined by a patients past object relations as 'projection'. But isn't this transference by definition? i mean sure you could project those 'expectations' of certain relationships, but i feel like defining this as projection is not correct. Projection is a phenomenon that occurs in therapeutic relationships/interactions. I understand the tendency to call it projection when explaining projective identification. But it is simply not entirely correct to give the definition of transference and say it is projection. I hope you can understand my point, i would love to hear your opinion though! In any case thank you for the video!
If they provoke an angry reaction in you (you have identified with their projected anger). You call them out. They deny it (gaslighting), eg: ‘that never happened’, ‘it’s all in your mind, ‘see what I have to put up with [with you]’, ‘ you’re too sensitive’, ‘oh, it might be just something I said’…all said with conviction.
Could explain a lot of what happened to me with my female friend back on May 12th. I was on the recieving end of it and It caused what seems to be fatal damage to our connection .
@@TheOHenry666 "More effective" meaning what in this context? Do you mean that the lack of awareness makes executing the transfer of aggression smoother, cleaner, unpaused by guilt, shame or fact?
@@itsthelittlethings100 By "more effective", I mean that it often comes across as more convincing to the receiver of the projections, if a large part of the perpetrator really believes that the receiver is the aggressor. Actors often say that they act at their best not when they are "acting the character", but when they are "being the character". Usually, it is only sociopathic people that are capable of stomaching using projective identification consciously. Well, that's my understanding.
Funny name! PsychoFarm :D ... I came here because I mostly project positive emotions onto others, especially lovers, I think htye're bonding more than they are, I idealize them, I think they're better people than they are ... I want to see the real person ... I dont'know, perhaps it's the wrong term, perhaps I'm looking in the wrong phenomena ...
I'm learning so much about this to the point of feeling called out (which is GOOD -- it is awareness and something I'm actively working on including within therapy and w/ DBT) ... but I'm LAUGHING MY ASS OFF WHY IS SHIA LEBOUF HWRE???? 🤣🤣🤣 AND LEO???? The clipart andnthe gifs are making me laugh hahah it is so important and so good though
Paradise vs Hell Empaths create a positive mental state (paradise) on others through possitive interaction. Empaths add value to any significant other or anyone close to him. Empaths conversate with people, it can be mom or dad, brother or friend, empaths will actually listen to the other person and will respond accordingly by giving positive feedback. Empath will try to be just, fair, reciprocate. Empaths know rules exist and are to be followed. Empaths find enjoyment in fullfilling this. Empaths try to draw a possitive nice looking picture of the world to others. Narcissists on the other hand, are trapped in a depressive (hell) mental state where they are not enjoying and pretty well acknowledge they are not doing what the most high God is asking to do. They do not chose to do this, many narcisssit would not openly say they hate or not believe on anything, they still believe on the eternal redemptiong or eternal after life. I would say their behavior is only a consecuence of their declining mental state (fall to hell) , because they were not diligent on their tasks. (task= do right to others.) I will add that many in this stage choose to repent and they begin to escape this behavior by any means and at all costs.
Check out the concept of Borderline Personality Organization. I have a video somewhere. A narcissist (or “borderline” or hysteric or etc) with BPO can act this way.
You can change the speed of all TH-cam videos depending on how fast or slow you need to have them to input the information. I listen to stuff at 1.25 to 1.5 and if someone talks really slowly, I do it at 1.75. You might need to decrease thespeed below normal.
Why do you have to speak so fast? It doesn't make you sound more intelligent or erudite. It sounds elitist and arrogant, like saying "if you can't keep up you are out of my league."
"You behave so disrespectfully and coercive", my dad, who shamed, demeaned and pressured me about anything from adolescence into adulthood. Then I became less patient and more aggressive in time with growing despair. Bonus projections: "You let people down all the time," "you just sit around doing nothing," while that's exactly him, and still I found myself more and more discouraged and reclusive. "you never come out with the truth to me", while I get increasingly reserved about sharing anything with him. "You never carry through, lose interest quickly, and can't get along with anyone"...
...and we're supposed to have compassion for these people. Sorry, no sale.
LOL! Are your dad and my mum the same people? Haha 😂
Sorry I don’t meant to make light of it. It’s damaging beyond words…At 36 my only strategy is to be able to laugh about it or I can’t have any contact at all.
@@VladaldTrumptin This pain can continue through life!
Man , I know its extremely discouraging but you can pass throught that with emdr. Try it .
I can sense the relief the Borderline gets from getting a rise out of me during one of these splits/projections. I no longer fight back, I employ the gray-rock method and appear completely emotionless. One time, I gray-rocked her and it sent her into a crazed rage, her coping mechanism was interrupted and she couldn't handle it.
You had a battle with a ______ what happens when a narcissist learns all this?
This was well explained. I was having a hard time understanding the definition but this was great. Thank you
Ditto. Same here
Superb explanation. Thanks for making this one. The only minor feedback I have is it might be helpful if you speak a little slower so that it's easier to process all this information as we listen.
I found it too fast as well but remembered I can slow down the playback speed which helped!
I really appreciate knowing there’s a specific concept for what I experience with my family member who is likely borderline. I see this play out now without being swept in, because I can sense the chain of events after suddenly becoming the “all bad.” It is very harmful to experience the things said that are posed to induce the behavior she’s seeking from me. At this point she is not relentless past a handful of accusatory/ disparaging text messages, but it does hurt each time although it’s become once in a blue moon.
This video so helpful and I appreciate how you made some of the psycho jargon easier to understand! Great work!
Glad it was helpful
This was very well done and it totally explained so much for me! Thanks!
Ya, totally needed that logical explanation even after one and a half years of self-education.
I feel so validated. Thank you.
Pattie Hughes (Glen Close) does a lot of projected identification in Damages TV series. I’ve witnessed/experienced it, so I can now see it onscreen. The target feels confused after, and aware of having been emotionally manipulated. Is it the same as baiting, wilful provocation and reactive abuse? All try to induce an angry/shameful reaction.
slow down, man.
Lol I love this channel. But the speed talking is uniquely frustrating, because setting the playback speed to 0.75× somehow makes him sound unbearably slow 😂
So that old standby isn't really an option either 😭
Haha true
Yeah
😂😂
.75 playback
Great video, thank you so much! I'm trying to heal from a breakup with a friend with BPD who lashed out on me. Tbh the experience was super weird. I still doubt myself. When she first accused me of all these things I hadn't said, I felt as though I was going crazy. Had I really done all those things? Was I overly attached and possessive as she claimed? Had I been super rude to her as she claimed? It feels unnatural to just assume she was twisting my words and outright lying and that I was completely innocent. That's not how I usually think. I like to think that if I get in an argument, it's probably my fault as much as the other person's because that's how relationships work: it's a two-way street. Then come this crazy half an hour monologue from my best friend about how rotten I am and how I persecute her. I still doubt myself.
See thomas ogden definition. Hes sounds like hes talking about projection. It can be intrapsychicic or behavioral. The feeling when someone in your family dies and no one speaks and you feel like shit. Simple. What the patient doesn't wish to process but acts out.
Thankyou for a clear explanation.
Glad it was helpful
thanks great video
In light of the re-inactment and the component of shame/trauma, it's basically a mental virus. I think double-bind communication is related in that way.
Excellent video and information! Thank you for sharing. So much easier to navigate through this life when there are helpful videos like this! You talk kind of fast for me, but I try my best to keep up.
Thanks again. Very helpful!
This is so interesting! I think a good example of this is in the scene in the The Sopranos when Gloria blames her flat tire on Tony and evokes a reaction out of him. Really well done video! Can’t wait for more! 😊
Glad you caught that, very observant! The sacred AND the propane.
Excellent
I love this!, Thank you
I had a bpd friend who used to do this kind of thing to me many times. However I never internalized her projections and always stayed calm and acted reasonably, which only seemed to escalate the episode. It was as if the fact that I wasn’t giving in to her accusations and losing my shit in the way she surely would have if the situation were reversed, only made her feel the need to harp on it even more to justify to herself that I was indeed whatever awful thing she was saying I was and she was going to prove it. Unfortunately for her I have incredibly thick skin and never gave her the satisfaction she was looking for, until there was nothing left for her to do but let it go and move on to something/someone else. Don’t let them steamroll you with their bullshit.
really well explained thank you!
I reckon this could even explain how some wars start.
you just got a subscriber, this is a great breakdown, amazing
Awesome, thank you!
Great info although talking too fast for some minds to process. Especially those with ADHD which I have found many with BPD have.
I played the video at half the speed: very useful feature that you can find in the menu.
@@karindegraaf246 Awrsome!
5:31 AAAA XDDD THIS WAS A GREAT EXAMPLE , I SUFFOCATED OUT OF LAUGHTER LOL
Hey, great video
Where does the content of the projection coming from? Does Shay thinks Leo is (supposed to be) aggressive or is Shay aggressive himself but can’t own it?
Thank you 😊
Yes and yes
Mother & father projected their badness onto each other & my brother, then me. My brother made it to 32, then gave up. This is very real. And the cause of much of so-called "mental illness".
So called mental illness??? So you don't believe mental illness is real??
He was the scapegoat child. Sad.
This is why i often try to keep any atheist leaning to myself. Idk how many times i get stuck in their beliefs 😆 but could be two way street for stability Žižek discussion of ideology good on this
So does this not always apply with aggression? So say rejection or perhaps loving, so people project people love them due to past experiences or that people will automatically reject them due to past experiences? Just any emotional state being projected onto another when it might not be the case? And if so and the projection does not become fulfilled, say love for example, if the other party does not love them, do they keep up the behavior until they do or would they discontinue the behavior? Or are these the situations where the individual becomes a stalker and the courts and law need to become involved to handle the situation?
I hope this explanation is logical enough for my BPD love.
Hey man - any advice how to behave in the moment when someone is using projective identification on you? Is there any way to make them 'snap out of it'? Or maybe, if it's a loved one, a partner etc. - would reacting in a loving manner, hugging them silently, or something, could that help?
great video! just curious, is "re-inactment" the same as "reenactment"?
Yes same thing, re-inactment is just reenactment spelt incorrectly!
it is basically. someone is upset and they trying to make the person upset as well.
I literally just experienced this with my gf less than an hour ago. Then she accused me of being the projectionist.
Unfortunately it wasn't a loving type of projection, but a "you never listen to my opinion, you always interrupt me, you start yelling" as she is engaging in that very behavior while I sit and listen to her. So frustrating.
Leave. Nothing is worth your peace
Gaslighting is an important term that describes an actual phenomenon. Gaslighting is an important phenomenon, and has broader social implications such as in "medical gaslighting." Also, it would be less distracting to use more generic examples of people as opposed to celebrities.
The example using Shia & Leo is probably the only thing that re-engaged me as I was beginning to zone out 😅
I think he avoided specifically referring to the word “gaslighting” simply because, at this point, there are many valuable but also some misleading assumptions that come along with it. he was able to convey how gaslighting plays a role in the entire process, though. most people, I think, assume that the act of gaslighting someone is a conscious process whereas the gaslighting that occurs in projective identification is often subconscious without the intentionality to confuse whomever they are protectively identifying.
People also associate gaslighting with acts of emotional abuse whenever I have seen it referenced online in recent years & he doesn’t want people to jump to that conclusion since projective identification (and thus, unintentional forms of gaslighting) occur in day to day life and not just in narcissistic and borderline dynamics of abusive relationships…and sometimes for the good feels like at a concert etc
Enlightening
The explanation is in detail but fast pace for me that it makes it difficult to understand
Change the video settings to .75 speed👍
Yes!!! Thank you!!!
You are welcome!
[more examples needed]
[evolutionary psychology needed]
Thank you!
Welcome!
this is why i can't be around my parents. They put pressure on me to experience MYSELF as ''sensitive'' and ''Paranoid'' and ''emotional'' when all of this stuff comes from them. My brother told me I was cutting off my nose to spite my face but they tell him how rational and logical he is.
LOL the melody at the beginning
the explanation and graphics are more than amazing, but the combination of the recording and the speech timbre makes it quite difficoult to understand, at least for a non native english speaker. It almost feels like it's whispered very fast with a bad spelling
I've been working on slowing the content down. I will likely be re-releasing eventually with a new voice recording.
I agree...the dialogue is so fast (my first language is English) that I had difficulty following to the point where I felt that I was hearing the sound but not the content.
Just follow the transcript
@ebethkennedy ugh. All you have to do is slow down the video speed to .75
Look all you people whining about him speaking too fast - adjust the video speed to .75
Boom 💥 problem solved.
Stop your complaining
U tell em!
NO
@@EyeOfTheTiger777 you’re so articulate 🫠
Why so fast? I hardly understand anything.
This was very good but WAY too fast!
Change the video settings to .75 speed👍
Can we do positive projection Identification?
You did touch on that at the end if the video..
Yeah- depends on how loose your definition is of projective identification, but some people think it plays a subtle role in all interactions, in which case there definitely is "positive" aspects
very helpful, however i have one remark... you describe the act of viewing someone in a distorted way, determined by a patients past object relations as 'projection'. But isn't this transference by definition? i mean sure you could project those 'expectations' of certain relationships, but i feel like defining this as projection is not correct. Projection is a phenomenon that occurs in therapeutic relationships/interactions. I understand the tendency to call it projection when explaining projective identification. But it is simply not entirely correct to give the definition of transference and say it is projection. I hope you can understand my point, i would love to hear your opinion though!
In any case thank you for the video!
love this! the only question I have is at what point does projective identification turn into gaslighting? what are some markers?
If they provoke an angry reaction in you (you have identified with their projected anger). You call them out. They deny it (gaslighting), eg: ‘that never happened’, ‘it’s all in your mind, ‘see what I have to put up with [with you]’, ‘ you’re too sensitive’, ‘oh, it might be just something I said’…all said with conviction.
Could explain a lot of what happened to me with my female friend back on May 12th. I was on the recieving end of it and It caused what seems to be fatal damage to our connection .
What's the difference between projective identification and psychological influence?
So is this the same as reactive abuse?
Is projective identification a conscious or unconscious action, or can it be either one? Also, what is projective interjection?
It can be both. It's often more effective if the person doing it is nonconscious when doing it.
@@TheOHenry666 "More effective" meaning what in this context? Do you mean that the lack of awareness makes executing the transfer of aggression smoother, cleaner, unpaused by guilt, shame or fact?
@@itsthelittlethings100 By "more effective", I mean that it often comes across as more convincing to the receiver of the projections, if a large part of the perpetrator really believes that the receiver is the aggressor. Actors often say that they act at their best not when they are "acting the character", but when they are "being the character".
Usually, it is only sociopathic people that are capable of stomaching using projective identification consciously. Well, that's my understanding.
What do you mean by embodying the internalized other
I've been accused of instigating my sister even though I try to avoid her when I can.
Funny name! PsychoFarm :D ... I came here because I mostly project positive emotions onto others, especially lovers, I think htye're bonding more than they are, I idealize them, I think they're better people than they are ... I want to see the real person ... I dont'know, perhaps it's the wrong term, perhaps I'm looking in the wrong phenomena ...
Projective Identification is just Projection with extra steps.
How to deal with this mechanism when we are its victim?
To elicit a weak amount of what you feel and the people who pick up one it don't have to accept it and im a psychollogist.
I'm learning so much about this to the point of feeling called out (which is GOOD -- it is awareness and something I'm actively working on including within therapy and w/ DBT) ... but I'm LAUGHING MY ASS OFF WHY IS SHIA LEBOUF HWRE???? 🤣🤣🤣 AND LEO???? The clipart andnthe gifs are making me laugh hahah it is so important and so good though
Paradise vs Hell
Empaths create a positive mental state (paradise) on others through possitive interaction. Empaths add value to any significant other or anyone close to him. Empaths conversate with people, it can be mom or dad, brother or friend, empaths will actually listen to the other person and will respond accordingly by giving positive feedback. Empath will try to be just, fair, reciprocate. Empaths know rules exist and are to be followed. Empaths find enjoyment in fullfilling this.
Empaths try to draw a possitive nice looking picture of the world to others.
Narcissists on the other hand, are trapped in a depressive (hell) mental state where they are not enjoying and pretty well acknowledge they are not doing what the most high God is asking to do. They do not chose to do this, many narcisssit would not openly say they hate or not believe on anything, they still believe on the eternal redemptiong or eternal after life.
I would say their behavior is only a consecuence of their declining mental state (fall to hell) , because they were not diligent on their tasks. (task= do right to others.)
I will add that many in this stage choose to repent and they begin to escape this behavior by any means and at all costs.
breath !! to fast for me
Change playback speed to 0.75 , I had the same issue😊
Is this how BPD and NPD act? Or if a narcissist is acting this way, they're acting this way because they're also BPD?
Check out the concept of Borderline Personality Organization. I have a video somewhere. A narcissist (or “borderline” or hysteric or etc) with BPO can act this way.
Fantastic video. Thank you! What are your thoughts on the chances for female children of BPD mothers? Am I doomed…? lol 😂 😥
Are you worried about getting bpd?
Self-fulfilling prophecy
confusing, there has to be an easier explanation
Hear you.
The hand writing is upside down..
🙃
Would have been so much easier if they had called it experential projection.
Just need you to talk a little slower lol
Change the video settings to .75 speed👍
Forget about it.
haha nice intro music
I have not understood the concept at all.
You need to slow down.
You can change the speed of all TH-cam videos depending on how fast or slow you need to have them to input the information. I listen to stuff at 1.25 to 1.5 and if someone talks really slowly, I do it at 1.75. You might need to decrease thespeed below normal.
Nice topic...you are too fast..
I thought it was fast also so I listened at .75 speed
I've tried to slow down!
Horrible video the speed everything. It’s a pity for an interesting theme
Thanks Marc!
@@PsychoFarm it’s my honest opinion the setting doesn’t go well with the theme. Don’t “project “ the frustration on me:)
Why do you have to speak so fast? It doesn't make you sound more intelligent or erudite. It sounds elitist and arrogant, like saying "if you can't keep up you are out of my league."