When Do You Forgive a Villain?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 มิ.ย. 2024
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Forgiveness is complicated. But so are people. And, believe it or not, villains are people too.
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I’ve heard the term “If they haven’t really done anything actually villainous then it’s not much of a redemption” and I think that’s somewhat true. Of course you have to make it believable that they’re a person who would have a change of heart, but if they haven’t done anything that bad then it’s not much of a moral dilemma.
Which I think executed perfectly with Omni-man from the TV show Invincible. It’s believable why he changed his ways, but he also has to live with all the death and destruction he caused to everyone.
Vader is a sympathetical villain & not a redemption even if he hangs out with Yoda 8 obi-wan at the end which honestly both Anakin & Yoda are villainous in different ways.
Vader as Anakin ended the younglings while Yoda indoctrinated them into a religious order.
Obi-wan is an okay guy but is really social moral at best as not lawful but not good wither as he kept Yoda & other questionable people as allies without questioning much to be frank till old age.
My head cannon is them 3 were looking at Luke from force equivalent of purgatory as their transgressions were forgiven but to paradise they were bared.
Qui gon jinn is chaotic good as he went against the Jedi council & tried to redeem himself for mishaps on his part. His biggest mistake to come about after his death was taking on Anakin as an apprentice.
If Qui gon Jinn lived then who's to say how Anakin would have turned out?
Luke is rebellious good as he does some slightly chaotic stuff but always for good in the end.
Princess Leia might be the only Pure good character in the show as even her mother is more a social good.
Who can tell me that Yoda is a good guy even if he is lawful with in Coruscant questionable legal system?
I see Yoda as a Lawful Impure like Count Dooku while Vader till his partial redemption was lawful evil as he did comply to the laws of senate & empire technically.
Captain Rex might be the only Lawful good character in Star wars that I can think of.
can you make music outt of the opening of your video its sound so goood :)
Do you watch anime? If not than Start with Naruto, it had few great Antagonists and anti-heros.
and it's would be great if your read as there's some issues in anime like pacing, filler episodes althou animation and music elevates the exp
@@FangLeng-lh4gn大蛇 丸=Orochimaru or Deihebimaru mean 'big snake completed/circle.
Maru is also a play on waru meaning evil so Orochimaru=big completely evil snake guy.
Honestly; anime is not great at writing villains.
I prefer Basilisk or ninja scrolls to Naruto personally & the villains are mid in both my suggestions as they serve their purpose though a tad generic.
Mind they serve the purpose of tension & moving the plot unlike Naruto!
Technically Naruto has few to no villains but uses broken heroes.
I suspect this was not on purpose but that most find it easier to write a good hero then a villain & so do a hero backwards which is really not a good method in practice even if it sounds good in theory.
I suspect you like 'broken Heroes' Fangleng & not villains!
Personally this is why Naruto held little interest for me even in school as a nipper as everyone else was all over Naruto.
Naruto is the worse character in Naruto funnily as a child in a orange jump suit with ADHD that plays as a shinobi when only Kakashi Hatake fits that bill since he gathers information carrying out espionage, subterfuge & the occasional assassination.
If I was Kakashi Hatake I'd be disappointed in all 3 of my students as one has power from a fox demon, another a healer & the 3rd narcissistic psychopath that acts more like an generically attractive Jason serial killer then a ninja.
Still like what you like with heroes against broken Heroes.
I recommend you watch Ninja scrolls & Basilisk.
Reminds me of the saying "Dying for your mistakes is easy, living with them isn't" Not sure why
Great saying 👍🏻💪🏻
I love it when characters are forced to live with the consequences of their actions. There is no moral value in dirt time
Samurai jack's Aku was pretty philosophical when he needed to be
"Anyone can die, it's living that requires courage"
I know is not much, but in the ending of Disney's Amphibia, Andreas, the king who messed up everything, is seen ploughing in a field, chained up and half dead, using the weapon of a friend he betrayed to grow new life. That felt better than if he just sacrificed himself to help in the end and that just redemeed him
There are redemption arcs, and there are "they made one decent thing in their life and then die" arcs.
Lol
Toji 💀
Shadow weaver ☠️
Speaking of ATLA, Jett
Oh yes !
Honestly have a person who did messed up stuff just learn and understand why what they did was wrong and seeing them just go mentally
"Fuck..."
Vinland saga does this and it's awsome : thorfinn killed pepole in war and he genuinely he feels the ghost of the pepole he killed tugging him into hell
Kylo Ren killing Snoke felt more like a Sith tradition than a step towards redemption.
IKR LOL! I swear the apprentices always murder their masters
Exactly.
Ever wonder why only sith that keep coming back to life have multiple people they have trained?
‘Sir my master is dead.’
‘Oh is he still dead?’
‘Yes, why?’
‘Oh nothing, i suppose you are the ‘master’ now’
If the Jedi had this secondary honorary master stuff then Anakin would still be with them.
@@Superkid33it's literally built into the Rule of Two: killing one's master is basically the final exam for a sith apprentice. The sith are all about strength above all else, and that's how an apprentice proves they're strong enough to become the new master and take their own apprentice.
It's so built into their code that there are several instances where a master was concerned because their apprentice *hadn't* made an attempt on their life yet, since it showed a lack of amition which was considered a sign of weakness.
@@silent_stalker3687 There’s always the “Dewit” Sith.
@@Superkid33 vader killed both his masters
Another interesting thing about Zuko: his methods, his thought processes, his character -these don't change.
Instead, it's his values. He is the same person, but has chosen a different answer to the cognitive dissonance he dealt with at the end of Volume 2.
Also what the show actually makes really clear very early on... Zuko was never really a bad person pr say. Zuko ALWAYS had a very strong sense of justice, and he always valued human life deeply.
What got him banished in the first place was his sense of justice and his concern for other peoples lives. People he had never met, seen or would ever encounter. He as the only one in the room still cared... That... That was how Zuko began.
And then he was being told he was wrong, and his big issue for the two first seasons is that he ISN'T doing the things he actually wants to do. he does what he believes OZAI wants him to do. Because he doesn't believe he can trust his own sense of justice. He's even very frustrated at himself for feeling doubt.
And Iroh even points this out. "I am not interested in what Ozai wants, I want to know what you want Zuko."
We also see on two different occasions in season 1 that Zuko has the option of choosing to chase the Avatar... or prioritize the human life around him. his crew and his uncle... And he chooses to protect the humans both times.
His innate values were always very strong, his one big issue just was that Ozai had such a chokehold on him for two seasons.
Which then makes sense the moment Zuko is finally ready to turn is the moment he realize. "Hold on... I don't need Ozai. I have grown beyond Ozai... Also the one person who was there for me who I DID need.... was Iroh.... So."
It all lined up and was sat up so perfectly. Sure Zuko threatened a lot of people but it's funny to make a deep dive and realize how he never hurt anyone... Unlike Azula who just straight up lighting stroke that guy upon her first five minute of introduction. She would never have turned the ship around for the safety of her crew, while Zuko did just that.
Thats what put him into his position in the first place@@MoonPhantom
He always valued his honor he had to learn to accept that no one can determine his honor beside himself. Once he accepts that he can accept his better nature.
More of by the mid end of volume 3 cause after all he did try and kill the avatar one last time
It's a bit more nuanced than that. The really interesting part of Avatar is that Zuko's family is really a study of fascism and fascists. Because that's what his entire family was, including Iroh at one point.
Ozai is a shadowy figure we don't see at first and he's built up to be an evil emperor, but when he's revealed, he's just some dude. Definitely on the attractive and athletic side, but otherwise utterly unremarkable as a person. We later see his baby photo on Ember Island, who the Gaang thing is Zuko at first. And that's to underscore that Ozai isn't inherently evil. He is what he is because he was born as a Firebender into the royal family. And that's kind of the point. If he had been born an Earth Kingdom farmer or a Water Tribe fisherman, he wouldn't be anybody important. He might well have gone on to be a decent and kindhearted person. Or he might be a jerk, but a jerk without any real power.
Azula is definitely built-different. But again, that's not so unusual either. There are children like that. But it's especially malignant and dangerous because of her upbringing. But despite that, she still craves love and is locked-into a vicious cycle where she thinks she can only be respected for power. And this serves as her descent and anti-progression compared to Zuko by the end of the series. Her perfectionism is unsustainable and paranoid. Both Azula and Zuko are studies in the effects of Tiger Parenting.
The problem is that those other two people don't make for a nice redemption arc because it's hard to change people. Systemic influences are much more powerful than your ability to try and debate somebody around to your point of view. Aang feels morally obligated to try, even if he can't succeed.
I think that's why Zaheer is a good foil to Aang and a wasted villain. He's a completely valid reading on enlightenment. If you can't really alter the course of a person's life or always get what you want, then why attach yourself to their redemption or not? If you really can rise above that and only see the results, then Air Nomad religion isn't just automatically fluffy as Aang wants it to be. The Earth Queen might make a kindly grandmother under any other circumstance, and perhaps she is, to whatever family she had, but this weighs little against the monstrosities of her ideology and power.
One of the things that works about Vader's "redemption" is that even though I don't think he's actually redeemed himself in any way, if he is redeemed, it's just to Luke. Luke may be the only one who sees Anakin, the person, and in a way, that's tragic, but it's what Vader deserves. Everyone sees him as a genocidal monster.
I also agree that Vader didn't really redeem himself. Killing one main guy doesn't atone for the MILLIONS of innocents he's slaughtered. His so called "redemption" felt more like giving closure to Luke specifically
@@100lovenana Yeah, exactly. it's about Luke's arch.
I really liked the episode of Ahsoka where he appears to her. He is both Anakin and Vader in equal measure.
On a deeper symbolic level he actually did redeem himself. He also fulfilled his destiny although in a tragic way.
@@100lovenanaYup. He cared enough about his son to not watch him die in front of him.
Congrats, he has emotions. Doesn’t make him not evil overall lol. Even evil people can love.
I feel like Vaders redemption wasn't supposed to be a full turn around. He knows he will never ever make up for what he's done. Its more of a moment of clarity between him and luke before he dies. A redemption to the one person who never gave up on him.
Agreed. And I would add that the fact that Anakin Skywalker's ghost shows up alongside Yoda and Obi-Wan at the end seems less like a definitive statement of "last-second redemption - all is forgiven now" and more Lucas trying to keep the cathartic spirit of _Return of the Jedi's_ conclusion intact. It's kind of like that scene in _Revenge of the Sith_ where Yoda and Obi-Wan are killing a bunch of Clone Troopers outside of the Jedi Temple. Narratively, it makes no sense (Obi-Wan and Yoda have every reason to _avoid_ fighting and thus instantly giving away their location, and that many Clone Troopers should easily be able to kill a couple of Jedi) but it serves the emotional needs of the moment by providing a sense of catharsis in showing the two Jedi fighting back directly after the harrowing massacre imagery of the Order 66 scenes.
@@CanadianPale true. I think George Lucas never wants any of his movies to be cynical or hopeless. Even the two saddest ones : Revenge of the sith and Empire Strikes Back end with some sort of hopeful imagery and tone. The main characters stare off into the sunset or space hoping for a better tomorrow. That's also why I think Luke forgives Vader/ Anakin in the end. Return of the Jedi isnt just about Luke returning and killing the big bad guys it's also about Anakin returning to the light, creating a positive/ hopeful end to what is otherwise a very depressing story for Anakin.
@@lumbagoboi1649 yes, he's very much about ultimately telling an optimistic, hopeful story.
Fully agreed. The redemption of Vader is that he dies as a father for his son rather than the scourge of the galaxy he lived as most of his life. The Emperor dies not because of Vader's hatred toward him, but because of the love Anakin has for Luke. His redemption is about him letting go of the Dark Side and embracing the Light Side through love instead of hate and fear. It's for good reason that the final funeral scene is Luke alone seeing his father off as the galaxy celebrates the death of the Empire, the Emperor, and Vader. Luke is the only one who the redemption matters to and the story doesn't at any point try to make the point that Vader/Anakin is now fully redeemed of all his wrongdoings.
Redemption isn't just about redeeming yourself toward everyone you have wronged in life. For most people redemption is usually about doing so for the ones you are the closest to, which is what most people will be able to achieve and relate to in life.
@@Frozen_Death_Knight incisive. 👏
I think the biggest key is that I have to be convinced that the character has changed in some way. Lots of redemption arcs feel like the author telling us “it’s fine, the character is cool now” Kylo barely feels like a character outside of his darkness. His dying feels like the easy way out for him. He never did anything major for his redemption and then died and was declared redeemed, despite not having to do the difficult act of living with his actions. Zuko felt like he was redeemable from the start. Zuko was trying to live up to an abusive father’s expectations. It was all he ever knew. We wanted him to be redeemed like we wanted the sick character to make a recovery.
This is a very good point. I think its also really influential to Kylo's story that we don't have a lot of his turmoil and turning to the dark side, we as the audience are just left to fill in that crucial part of his story with like a 30 second scene of Luke turning on his lightsaber. Unlike in the sequels where at least we see Anakin's troubles with his loved ones dying.
It fails at making the audience care.
In addition to that, I think it also doesn't help that Kylo Ren is supposedly "redeemed" despite having petty reasons for becoming "good" rather than seeming to really want become a better person for his victims or the world--well the galaxy. He basically only turns "good" via a combination of some level of attraction to Rey--possibly platonic but it's still clear he's interested in her--as a fellow Force user, a bigger bad then him popping up (again) in the form of "somehow, Palpatine returned" who he can't kill alone & would rather not serve, *and* basically being guilted into it by his parents(' ghosts) & "forgiven" by them...despite helping kill literally entire planets worth of people (and animals).
It's just so utterly shallow on every level (like all of J. J. Abrams's writing, so no surprise there).
The secret ingredient is also not that Zuko never did anything THAT bad.
I was about to just write, "yeah, the big difference is ATLA is super well-written and most important characters have a lot of depth to them, whereas the whole scenario and character building of the third Star Wars trilogy are absolutely terrible and completely inconsistent, both in themselves and in relation to the earlier films".
It helps that we watch Zuko see first hand the effects of the fire nation, meeting earth kingdom citizens injured, abused and displaced due to the war cased by his ancestors. We see him first hand gain empathy.
Let me share one of my favorite quotes on redemption from a great DnD comic -
"Redemption requires more than simply the execution of your duty, even if you follow that duty to the end. True redemption demands that you seek forgiveness for your past misdeeds. That you atone for the actions that caused the Twelve Gods to turn away from you. That you even acknowledge that you could, in fact, be wrong. Redemption is a rare and special thing, after all."
Order of the Stick?
What's the name of the comic book series?
@@CamSiv996 Order of the Stick, it is a webcomic that goes to this day and it is awesome.
@@MrocnyZbikthanks.
Comic's a banger yeah. Been going for many years, the art gets better as it goes on so if you dislike the first arc stick through it (haha)
"Kylo Ren is a magical space nazi" LMAO, so precious 😂👌
Isn't that basically everyone in the Dark Side
I stand by Vader as the better example. Kylo was just a terribly written character from start to finish, a pale imitation of his predecessor who fits the narrative Tale is trying to spin here better. Not to mention just had the better redemption arc all around.
im going pretend star wars 7-9 never happened. Disney ruined star wars
@@sonicfanboy3375 everyone that sided with the Empire, yes. There’s lots of implications that the Dark Side is more about turbulent emotions than a specific ideology.
The Diamonds are magical space Nazis too, yet we don't talk about them as much as we should.
The one "dying for redemption" plot I really like, is Doc Ocks, the main reason he turned bad because he designed "AI" machines to help him be able to create his project, only for him to lose control and them taking over, even though he is fooled into thinking he's the one in control, the machines need to do what they're designed to do.
When the end shows up and he finally takes back control, he is appalled with what he made and sacrifices himself to save everyone, quoting "I will not die a monster". It hits me every time, instead of blaming everything on how he lost everything, how it's not fair, he knows he was a villain, that he created all this to himself.
@lightborn9071 The spider-man villains were always so sad, you KNOW they're evil, but you can't help but feel sorry for them
kind of reminds me of Haltman from kirby robobot.
Indeed
And by doc saying "i will not die a monster" is him going "if i can't save myself then i will at least save others"
Thats what a hero will do
They keep others safe
Dock Ock is much more of a "Screw this, I'm cleaning up my own damned mess!" than "Oh it's okay, I'm good now! I deserve your forgiveness!"
@@user-bn3wi7rq1yoh yea that’s the guy who lost his daughter so he became an intergalactic recorce hog
The TV Trope "Redmption = Death" is so enduring because a dead character can't backside or relapse or "just be faking it".
Zuko has *several* flase starts before he truly walks the path of redemption and the main cast continues to distrust him quite a while.
Adam Driver is a great actor but Ben Solo can't do all that in 1 hour of screen time.
This trope honestly should apply itself to itself.
We don’t even know who Ben Solo at all instead of being an Anakin ripoff.
the nicest way I would refer to Vader is a Tragic Villain, the tragedy being as you said, that tiny glimpse at the ember of good that still glowed deep within him in spite of his suffocating hatred towards the galaxy right at the end of his life
As Luke says, “I am a Jedi. Like my father before me.” Luke still sees Vader as a Jedi despite everyone else seeing the monster.
@@xpendabull indeed
And vader by removing the mask and Sacrificing himself for luke truly returns to become anakin
Not a good person but a jedi who wanted to do WHATEVER it takes to protect the ones he loves
Even if that means turning on the people that he trusted
Whether that be the jedi or the sith
Thats why vader is good to my eyes
Not as a good person but a father willing to give back to his son
@@seantaggart7382Agreed too bad in the Disney trilogy the characters including Luke and Leia focus on darth vader instead never mention Anakin Skywalker the Jedi hero at all treating him the black sheep of the family which a damn shame.
Ironically JJs original vision was kylo was supposed to be the "anti-vader" starting out wavering and ending completely committed to the dark side.
Which is weird, because while TLJ certainly wasn't what J.J. was expecting for the middle third of the trilogy, the ending, Kylo becoming Supreme commander of the First Order and rejecting Rey's offer of redemption and peace, 100% fits in with that original idea.
@@RorikHbut then JJ and Disney saw people not gelling with it, so they rushed to make it, make sense. But they could have just, not switches directors between the first two movies, and the trilogy would have been fine by the end, with another director ending it
@@RorikH you under estimate the power of merch sales online stanning when you can ship a dark side boyfriend and a light side girl friend
So... ... ... Anakin?
@@Zulk_RS I think more like Harvey dent
Our introduction to Zuko saw him attempting to take the Avatar without killing anyone else. Where anyone else in the Fire Nation would have just stormed in, taking the avatar, and then left without care of who got hurt, Zuko came in and negotiated. Frequently through the show huge seen attempting to prevent harm to bystanders while still achieving his goals. He is angry, and kind of obnoxious, but he actually tries very hard throughout the series not to leave too many casualties behind. It's what sets him apart from a lot of people even to Aang early on. When his crew gets angry at him for being so bitter, his uncle tells the story of how he spoke out against his father and his attempt to prevent their own soldiers from getting killed needlessly which is why he was banished in the first place.
By contrast, Kylo Ren was introduced as an angry ass who murdered his peers in cold blood, casually murders people, and only barely hesitates to kill his own father. He's not given any redeeming qualities until it's too late. As you said, everyone talks about his hidden good, but it's no where to actually be seen.
Zuko's stage was set early, while Ben's stage was flipped in the middle of the story.
Truly the first impression is most important (especially in writing. Speaking of their introductions, I do fully agree that Kylo was botched and had his entire arc flipped on it’s head after going to far in the other direction, but I also think it is possible to write a good redemption arc story for a character who is at least in their intro a horrible/evil person without any redeeming qualities.
This is admittedly a poor example of my point, but something like this concept can be seen in the character Arueshalae from Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous.
Arueshalae is a literal demon without a soul and has an enormous history of evil behind her. She has done some super messed up stuff that normally involved stealing peoples souls after tempting them with false love. However by the time we the player meet her, she is trying to change and be something more. She ended up getting locked up and punished for her actions for an unspecified number of years (possibly decades or even a century or two), and in the process began to develop regret and desire for change. Arueshalae when we meet her is someone who wants to try and actually do good and be something more than the monster she spent most of her life as. An absolute evil type character getting a genuine redemption arc. (Honestly the only reason I think she is a poor example of my point is because we never get to see her original evil actions or her road to redemption. We meet her during her redemption arc, not before it.)
So yeah, I think it is possible to give a good redemption arc to someone initially introduce as 100 percent evil, but you really got to do it right (which is something Kylo did not get).
I know of a man, a father of five, who spent his whole life trying to avoid his family. When he was home, and not locking himself away in his room, he'd beat the children for disobeneiance with a belt all the way into their late-teens. He'd mock his grandchildren, physically and emotionally abuse his wife so much that she became an alcoholic and was an obvious racist even towards his own family. On his deathbed he expressed how sorry he was for everything he did - how do you think his now fully grown children felt about this sudden declaration of remorse?
It's not that stories need to have a lengthy redemption arc to feel satisfying, it's that in reality a life-time of being a source of suffering really needs that person to demonstrate their regret in more than just impulsive moments which only occured due to exceptional circumstances.
This is a fantastic example! It really just grounds the whole concept. Just because they had an epiphany before death, a moment of fear, and apologized, doesn't absolve them of the cruelty they knowingly inflicted onto others. A dad who'd have changed his ways and tried to do good for those he had wronged, could have maybe been forgiven by a few. Even if none of them forgive him (as no one is owed forgiveness), it's good to see he'd tried at least, and maybe that allows all that he has wronged to finally move on and start processing their traumas.
It's like that episode of Xavier: Renegade Angel (a nonsensical comedy-satire show) which ends with the mob boss who has been implied to be an all around terrible person suddenly yells "I accept Jesus Christ as my lord and savior! Yes! Made it!" right as he falls into a vat of lava.
More seriously, I think redemption can be earned, both in fiction and in real life, but it's definitely something you have to work for. Obviously there's no objective point at which it happens, but I don't think that apologizing or doing something good right before you die is full redemption in any way.
@@mikejeffries3333Chief Beef Loco.
I remember the mob boss was tossed into the molten metal by a sentient swarm of mosquitoes that were planted as eggs by a mosquito Xavier saved in the beginning.
@@mikejeffries3333 honestly reminds me of the Lego starwars Christmas special
Where Palpatine is falling down the shaft he's like "WAIT I CAN BE GOOD I WILL CHANGE MY WAAAAA--" as he's falling
Like i love how lego made fun of that trope saying "hey look guys! He's gonna change!"
Reminds me of Star Wars Character Riyo Chuchi's quote, "To die for one's people, is a great sacrifice. To live for one's people, an even greater sacrifice."
Ironically somebody who has a very good redemption Arc in Star Wars who actually deserves the redemption, and unlike Zuko was a very bad person at first. "Agent Kallus." from Star Wars Rebels.
This guy... Really began as an agent of the empire, he believed in the empire, he followed orders, he fought against our heroes... But then as he was on the ground and saw the consequences of their actions, he felt doubt, and as Ezra talked to him he acted like it didn't reach him but it did.
And Kallus in secret actually becomes a spy for the rebels and feed them key information pretty much putting his own life on the line for a long time without ever expecting any thanks in return.
Our main characters at this point know there's a mole in the Empire, that's how they get the information they need, but they actually don't know who it is for a very long time, the show leaves it a mystery and that makes it more impressive that Kallus worked really hard behind the scenes and as you re-watch the show you can see he is aiding them multiple times, keep in mind if he is discovered here he dies... no celebration, no thanks, no nothing. He is legit doing it ONLY because it's right. Never expecting to get anything out of it.
Now that's a redemption from somebody who legit started on the bad side and turn out to be one of the biggest heroes of the show.
That sounds great! Maybe I should watch rebels…
Kallus is one of my absolute favorite characters in the story.
I say Crosshair was a great example
@@grandiloquentgeekgenre Yeah, it's a shame they ended up basically underutilizing him once he had switched sides he was just... background character.
And it's sad because... I also think one of the things that make Kallus so great as a character is that he really represent the ordinary people living under the Empire.
He really is just that, very normal. Who grew up in the Empire, believes what he was always told growing up, having personal experiences that confirmed what he had been told, that led him to do horrific things believing they were right... But then as he is confronted with reality, with the coldness of the empire, how they don't care about him... He reconsiders. And he does it without expecting anythings, he is actually downgrading his rank and place just to do the right thing.
So yeah... I am really sad he didn't get more stuff to do in the final season.
Or even showed up in "Ashoka." which in reality was just Rebels season 5.... I mean seriously it is written as Rebels season 5... Why not just give us Rebels season 5 then?
People who tuned in not having watched any of the animated shows must have been so confused.
@@Antasma1 The final thirty seconds of that episode was pretty brilliant.
And THAT'S how you do visual storytelling!
Zeb walks to meet his fellow rebels, they rush over to hug him, to greet him, to ask him if he's okay. To give him whatever he needs, his scene is in warm yellow colors. It is warm, comforting, nice.
Kallus limps to his home... no one notice him, they don't even ask if he's okay even if he has a clear limp, he has to make them aware he's there... And then it turns out no one even noticed he was gone at all... And they don't care... The empire doesn't care about him.
He goes to his room... It's all gray, it's cold, bare... Alone... He's alone just sitting.
He puts away the rock Zeb gave him and it's the ONLY source of warmth or caring in this entire scene... While Kallus sits alone... and the episode ends.
Brilliant... No one had to tell us that was the moment he decided to switch sides, it is so obvious from visual story telling alone, and it really tells you why and how he came to the conclusion so flawlessly, it was great.
Character: *goes on life-changing field trip with Zuko*
Toph and everyone watching the show: God I wish that were me
Toph already had her life-changing field trip. When she went off on her own after her spat with the Gaang, she ran into Iroh and got some tea with some very good advice. It would also make sense that she'd be more lenient with Zuko compared to everyone else.
redemption doesnt necessitate forgiveness in my opinion
and most villain sacrifices arent supposed to absolve the villain too, id argue. most of the time, the villain just does something because they got nothing to lose and have a final moment of clarity. it doesnt forgive them nor redeem them. it just makes you respect them better, yoh appreciate that they had the capacity to be able to finally do something in hopes that it will do something good, potetially for those they mightve hurt
And forgiveness is not always redemption either. Forgiveness can happen *before* the villain actually changes. Perhaps because the protagonist (and the reader) can understand the trauma that led the villain to do all the villainous things.
@@user-qm4ev6jb7d that is true
sometimes someone just chooses to forgive.
you cant control who will or wont forgive anyways; so its best not to pretend that there is a proper guideline to who "deserves" it, in real life or in fiction
nor should you judge someone for choosing to forgive i believe
I have to agree with you. In stories and in life, forgiveness isn't something anyone is entitled to. It's something you hope for, sure, but part of changing for the better is realizing that people have the right to their pain, they have the right to not allow you another chance to hurt them. I'm an addict in recovery, I'm also a recovery specialist. I've been so blessed by the way my loved ones have responded to me. I can't think of a single person who didn't support me through my recovery and welcome me back into their lives with open arms. But I do run into situations where my past causes people to look at me with suspicion, and I have zero right to get angry about that. When my boss found drug paraphernalia at our facility, he immediately asked me to take a drug test, because I told them when they hired me I was in recovery and I'd need them to support me attending zoom meetings at work occasionally. Alot of people, most people probably, would have gotten angry about being approached like that, being suspected, after years of sobriety and working SO hard to prove themselves. But if you find drug paraphernalia and you have a person who is very own about having been a drug user working for you, it's reasonable to assume it might belong to them. Also the first time I needed to borrow a few dollars from my mom, she wanted to know what it was for, and OF COURSE she did. I spent years spending every penny on drugs. I have clients who get so upset and so angry at their family after a few months clean when they still don't trust them. I tell them the same thing every time. What you have done is incredible, it's one of the hardest things a person can do, but your family has the right to protect themselves from being hurt. You hurt them for years. If they forgive you, that's a GIFT, one to be profoundly grateful for. You don't have a right to their forgiveness, you don't get to choose how long it takes for them to feel safe giving their hearts to you after you've broken them over and over. They aren't trying to punish you, they're trying to protect themselves.
@@l0ned1ver95 In one of my favorite stories (I won't name it for spoiler reasons) the villain's evil deeds were caused by a spiral of self-hatred, where every new instance of cruelty towards others only increased the self-hatred. And the villain's multiple victims all collectively decided to forgive, hoping that the trauma can be recovered from. In a sense, that forgiveness was what *caused* the villain to attempt to change.
@@jessicahay9305 thanks for the comment.
and uhh do i say like, congrats? for the recovery? idk how that works haha, but yeah im glad you seem to be chilling.
i think every situation has its nuance when it comes to being a person trying to be better and having hurt people. especially when there might be people who also have similar problems or are people who mightve "hurt you first" and youre stuck with them like parents for example. but youre right, even if the suspicion might be upsetting or seemingly unwarranted, it might show that people do care about you, or at the very least, the continuous relationship that they currently have with you.
after getting hurt and/or causing the harm, it obviously gets hard to build trust again
I like to give a mention to Lord Garmadon from LEGO Ninjago
specifically his return in season 15
where it is only his darkness, his evil side that returns
but we see that even that side tries to learn compassion and care, and he starts doing so, by taking care of a little plant
That ark already started in the oni Trilogy, S15 just finished it
I vaguely remember an arc where some of the classic villains come back, but one of them actually follows up on their sacrifice that happened right before they came back, and helps the good guys the whole way through. He even goes out in a much better way that he did before
@@cosmicspacething3474 you mean Morro in the day of the departed special. Like the other Villains he came back from death and if he killed his Former Master Wu, he can become fully alive again, but instead he decided to warn him.
He Breaks the rule of most redemptions, that is doing one good thing and then dying.
Wich is good, because his redemption in season 5 wasn't realy a redemption. He lost and decided to give the Realm crystal to Wu because his Former Master Showed compation and tried to help him not follow the same fate as the other ghost wich means dying a second time. It's interessting that Morro decided to not be saved by Wu and instead accepting his death.
Besides this Moment at the end of the season he didn't Show that he could be redeemed, the only reason for us to feel compasion for him was because of his backstory wich is realy similar to that of Tai Lung from kung fu Panda.
So in a way him coming back in day of the departed was kind of necesary to Show that he was truly redeemed.
@@nightlunastar I didn't remember the exact season
Dude I hated that brought back garmadon from his death. it butchered his character ending so much like dude he should have died in season 4 but then they bring him back and all of this backstory Lloyd angst sht bubbles up with no birthday card or play catch like that wasn’t suppose to already be resolved by season 3 😭😭😭 it makes zero sense why this is a problem now when it was a problem then
The thing about Zuko is that we can see the journey before he changes sides. We see that he slowly changes, with the help of his uncle of course. We also see that he isn't a heartless monster at the start- he's a kid who was forced into a world he didn't want but who still cares about others. He chooses not to go after the Gaang on several occasions, prioritising the safety of the people around him. We see him go from a hunter, to a refugee where he sees how the Fire Nation affected people's lives, and so on. The process starts very early on, way before we know he's gonna get redeemed.
In Final Fantasy 14 there's a character who gets a very much "you live with your past and make amends" redemption arc, and I always remember, after her first heroic act where she saves a bunch of diplomats, one of them, someone she'd tormented in the past says, "Not you. You, I cannot forgive. But I can thank you."
Makes me tear up every time.
God, Fordola was such a good character.
Both within and outside the context of the Prequels, I've always seen Vader's last minute turn not so much as the act of redemption for him narratively and more as the strength of Luke's optimism, belief, and overall heroism. Despite all the objective evidence, despite having absolutely no actual reason to think his father can turn to the light, Luke still tries, and it nearly costs him his life and the fate of the galaxy. And it's that conviction from Luke that really makes Vader turning back work for me
That and honestly before going to the Emperor, when Vader and Luke talked during the trip, Luke said he believed Vader still had good within him. Vader says he doesn't, but the way he says it makes it seem like he wants to convince Luke he isn't still conflicted about his choices. It's like a subtle cue that he's trying to convince Luke and himself that there isn't any good left in him. And then when we finally see him standing by and watching Palpatine shock his son, he makes his decision, he can't just watch as he losses his family again, and even if it costs him his life, he will save his son.
Kylo seems so unwilling to push and accept the consequences of recognizing he's wrong, and evil. Zuko knew what it would cost him to become who he did and did it even facing those consequences, with no guarantee of redemption.
i feel that some time people get "Forgiveness, Absolution and Redemption". mixed.
Forgiviness is what happen when a character that has done evil is forgiven for his past acts, maybe he has done something to repay the person he hurt, maybe he has changed, but the person the character wronged, now forgive the character from the past acts. Is something that has very little to do with the character itself but mainly to the person doing the forgiven.
Absolution is about guilty, is about a character that has done evil and feels guilty about and for some reason that guilty is cleaned and removed, normally is related to some authority figure that release the character from the guilty, maybe he has done something to pay for his evil actions, is a mix action related to the guilty character and the person giving absolution, the person giving absolution don't need to be the same affected by the character evil action. It can be a priest and religious figure ou maybe a Judge and justice/legal theme figure like a King.
Redemption is about change, is about the character that has done evil things having a metamophorsis, "i am no longer that evil person" is a complete "inside" process, that dont need any "third part" only the character can give redemption, even if no one else agree and still think the character is evil the character can have redemption. is more about forgiving yourself.
So in short:
Forgiveness - The victim no longer wishes ill will on the villain
Redemption - The villain pays the debt they owe due to their evil
Absolution - The villain is freed from their guilt
@@williamthompson4761
more like
Forgiveness - The victim no longer wishes ill will on the villain. " I don't blame you anymore "
Absolution - The villain is freed from theit guilt, most times after paying the debts they owe due to their evil ( but not always) " you have made things right, your record is clean now "
Redemption - The villain changed and no longer see themselves as the same person that has done the evil "i am no longer that person"
Agreed
...
Cozy
Perhaps i dont need to redeem you
But absolve you of the things you did
...
Just a thought
Another difference with Zuko is that you see his character struggle internally over what his goals even are for half of the series, and after his first failed redemption when he got what he thought he wanted, he still finds himself in turmoil for half of the final season before confronting his father and leaving to join the avatar.
He doesn't just change in a single episode or even over a single season, he is in conflict with himself for half the series, arguably longer.
"You don't earn redemption by running out the clock." - A character I think does something a little bit different is Shadow Weaver from She-Ra and The Princesses of Power. She also pulls the sacrifice at the last minute routine, but you're not expected to "forgive" her. It's sad for both you and the characters involved when you see it play out, but not nearly enough for anyone to forgive her. It's all a bit "too little, too late". That's kind of what makes it good though. Her final act is to do something genuinely selfless and be a proper mother for once in her life knowing full well it won't redeem her. This gives an extra moment of tragedy to the scene seeing a villain try to do the right thing and knowing full well it won't be enough.
Another way you could look at it is her not wanting to face all the people she's hurt so she decides to speed-run a redemption arc. That final "You're welcome" is very telling.
@@matthewmccoyd2578 I was thinking of that too
@@matthewmccoyd2578This. Ultimately, Shadow Weaver's sacrifice is just another manipulation, a last-ditch effort to wrangle one last shred of goodwill from Adora and Catra, so that they'll remember her better than she really was. To force a measure of forgiveness out of them without actually putting any effort into being a better person.
@@RanVor Rodimus: *using the Necronomicon* YOU GET BACK UP HERE AND APOLOGIZE
What helps with Zuko’s redemption is that we see him see the effects of the war first hand. He meets people who have been injured, displaced and abused by the fire nations actions, one that he was complicit in. He has to live in similar harsh conditions to these people as well. And through it all most of these citizens treat him with genuine kindness he’s barely known outside of his mother and uncle. We watch him gain empathy in real time. We also watch him put in the work with soul searching, we watch him be guided by Iroh and fight his inner demons, work to gain team avatar’s trust. Zuko puts in the work and we see him do it, we don’t skip over it and say “look! He’s different and he’s joining team avatar!” No, we see the long journey of how he got there.
one is a questing soul. in spite of his obession, you see , Zuko had basically good childhood, surrounded by phsycopaths. his redemption arc was when he has the ephipany, his focus fixes onto good.
I SEE ZUKO IN THE THUMBNAIL I CLICK
TRUE
Same lol
↑ This is also me.
Ye
Literally me
I just watched a video from Rockotar about a redeemed villain. It might sound silly but from a Disney show called Sofia the First, the main antagonist is Cedric who wants to take over the kingdom because he wants respect from all the times he’s been bullied.
When he’s turned good, he faces the consequences by going to jail, and having to earn back the trust he lost in the royal family.
To make it full circle, he saves the main character at the end of the series, using his full potential for good. Now everyone can comfortably say he’s now a changed man.
dying and not having to live with the consequences of your evil act is just too easy for both the writer and the character. the most endearing arc of zuko is when he is trying really hard to join the gang
This is why when it comes to "justice" systems, there is the "life sentence" and the "death penalty". They're both the highest the punishment could be, but very different philosophies behind which one to use. The "redemption" there is more about how the criminal is able to pay for their crimes, rather than personal growth (in U.S, it's seen as more about trying to recompensate the victim(s) as much as can rather than redeeming the criminal). Zuko when he was exiled basically got a life sentence as a character, and he spent that redeeming himself. Kylo Ren as a character got a death penalty, paying for his irredeemable crimes with his life.
“The sole way to atone for thine actions is to do better in a new dawn, that dawn has come”
The reason Kylos redemption failed is because it was an attempt to copy Darth Vaders death and sacrifice. But Vader didn’t just die, he killed the main antagonist and died in the process. Thats why Vader was redeemed and Kylo wasn’t, because if Vader had survived he would have gone on to do good, but we dont have any evidence Kylo would have
And still, somehow he returned
Nah it’s a time thing. Cheat on your spouse and they won’t forgive you overnight even if you let them get a free pass too
Plus Vader was actually miserable as darth Vader nothing but a slave to Sidious until Luke shows up.
It may also be because the sequel trilogy is just… the closest thing I can think of to objectively bad.
I really don't count Vader as redeemed to anyone but Luke, and even that's arguable since Luke basically believes there's goodness in him almost as soon as he finds out that Vader is his father and gets to process it & losing a hand. It's just that Ben Swolo's "redemption" is even worse and more shallow, especially since the on-screen crimes we see Kylo Ren commit are greater in scale than anything than Vader did in the original trilogy and probably even the extended universe. (And, as said above me, the Disney trilogy is just way worse overall even as someone with no personal attachment to the original trilogy either.)
EDIT: Since apparently need to make this clear due to a response that got deleted from I guess realizing their mistake or what I was talking about, Kylo Ren has a (much) higher body count simply because he's part of the group that blows up at least different three populated planets at once. We literally see him do it with the lazy and stupid superweapon J. J. Abrams put in the first Disney movie that's essentially just the Death Star III Plus Alpha: Champion Edition. You know, the one that got used to enact the destruction of Leia's home planet on several other planets that we see blown up on-screen? And the ones we're apparently supposed to believe that Kylo can make up for simply by dying? Ha.
I think a major part of why Zuko's redemption arc works, is that his initial "villainous" goals were basically misguided. He though doing so and so would give him his non-evil goal (being back father's acceptance), and later were just anger and frustration. No evil philosophies, no immoral ways of thinking, there's not much that actually _makes_ him a villain, other than opposing the protagonist.
Hirohiko Araki, the writer of JoJo's Bizzare Adventure, talks about somethis close ot the heart of this in his book Manga in Theory and Practice. I don't have my copy, so you'll have to forgive me as I paraphrase. But he discusses how no matter what a character does, it can be easy to make the audience root for them if they have an understandable motivation and the act itself isn't too 'antisocial' (He mentions how adultery is one of the things that a character can do that will make people not like them no matter what, for example). I can't help but think of that when looking at these two side by side (Vader too in some measure, but I'm less familiar with the original movies).
It's easy to forgive Zuklo because his motivation has always been something easy to relate to. He wants to be accepted back into the fire nation. To make his dad proud of him. For things to go back to how they were. And the audience can relate to those motivations strongly. And additionally,. in the pursuit of these motivations, Zuko doesn't do anything TOO bad. He may injure or hurt people, but he's never done anything 'antisocial'. Mix that with the fact that his road to redemption was so long and painful, it's hard not to feel like he earned it. Like, I still think about the episode when he tried to help that earth kingdom farm and after he has to firebend to save them, they immediately turn on him. That hurt.
But then we get to Kylo... his motivation is, in my opinion, let's be civil here, weak. Revenge and a desire for power can only get you so far. And in the pursuit of that revenge, he kills numerous, innocent people. And it's hard not to feel like the few good acts he does do are weak (Not killing your mom is a low bar) or self-motivated (saving Rey largely because he was interested in her). And don't get me wrong... there have been plenty of shows that try to redeem someone that has killed many people. But Kylo's motivations aren't strong enough to excuse it. Not to mention that 'genocide' probably fits firmly in the 'antisocial actions that make it hard for readers/viewers to like you as a hero'. So when he sacrifices himself to save Rey, it not only feels somewhat self-serving, but too little too late. Could he have been redeemed? I like to think so. Revan from knights of the old republic is how a sith can be redeemed, in my opinion. Because we follow Revan, assuming you're doing a light side (or even neutral) run actually helping people. Despite, arguably, doing worse things than Kylo. But because we saw that built up and the struggle, it's easier to see Revan as a hero. (Though being the player insert probably also helps, but come on, this is a youtube comment.)
Agreed, 100 percent agreed. (Also thanks for naming the book, I kinda want to check it out now).
I think you hit the nail on the head as to why I dislike using Zuko as the example of a redemption arc done well. He was never that evil to begin with and using him as the barometer for a good redemption arc feels very wrong
You know what makes for an interesting additional data point? That episode of SG-1 where Teal'c is put on trial for killing a man's father years before. Teal'c admits to his crime and doesn't put up a defense. He is willing to die for the actions he's taken in the past. But over the course of the episode he demonstrates that he has changed, and the trial ends with the victim's son saying that he was mistaken; the man who killed his father was not present at the trial after all. I like the episode as a recognition of the harm he caused, and that he's now working to prevent that kind of harm in the future.
So happy to see someone else bring up Teal'c. Over ten seasons, we get a handful of episodes that touch on Teal'c as a former agent of evil, two of which stand out to me as the really big ones. There's this first one you mention, and then later, season 10 I believe, when we just get a single scene. He sits down with Tomin and says, quite bluntly, even harshly, and yet not unkindly, "You will never forgive yourself, but that does not mean you cannot continue to do good." It's one of the best scenes in SG-1, possibly one of the best scenes Chris Judge has ever gotten a chance to be in.
A redemption arc for a villain tends to be (from their perspective) a tragedy story up until being offered the chance at the end of the tragedy to change their path. At which point it becomes a hero's journey moving forwards with that tragic 'ending' becoming their origin point to return to at the end of the hero's journey and overcome once and for all.
A great example of this in action occurs in Shera: Princesses of Power. There are multiple villainous characters who attempt various degrees of redemption. One of them strait up does the "death = redemption" on purpose, and the showrunner has gone on record stating that said villain did this because they didn't want to put the effort in to actually repairing the damage they'd caused so they took the easy way out while attempting to force everyone to posthumously forgive them.
First off: Awesome video!
Second: I just wanna ramble for a bit about Zuko’s redemption and how it feels good.
I think a key thing to consider when comparing Zuko to another redemption arc is to compare how before they truly “redeem” themselves, is how they lived prior to this turn. And not just their sins, but their values and their history. (Note: I don’t watch Star Wars so I won’t compare him to Kylo in this comment, and will just talk about how Zuko was portrayed.)
Zuko has had multiple episodes where we see his childhood and/or his actions that aren’t strictly serving his mission of capturing the Avatar. During “The Storm” we even get both: he actively goes out of his way to save a crew member who’s in danger, and Iroh gives us the origin of how Zuko was banished with his scar.
This allows us to already have a seed of hope in our heads about the potential of Zuko if he wasn’t so blinded by his rage and his quest for honor. We are eased into the idea of his potential redemption and even get actively distraught when he has his failed turn to good in Season 2, because we can remember those moments where his true character shines through while ultimately he fell back on his old ways.
It’s not just those 4 episodes where he’s earning the trust of the characters in-universe. Those are instrumental to allowing the redemption feel natural within the actual universe of the story.
It’s the importance of those episodes like “The Storm,” “Zuko Alone,” and “The Avatar and the Fire Lord” that allow us as the audience to root for Zuko in his eventual path to the side of good. We get to be convinced of his potential earlier on, and we have to watch as he goes on his journey to reach that point of redemption.
Btw just wanna add on: maybe you don’t NEED to plant that seed of hope in the audiences head to have a successful redemption of a character.
But it certainly helps it feel more believable because it’s not just a sudden shift to the other side that now needs to be justified to both the characters and audience afterwards. It makes it feel gradual even before they actively attempt to change sides.
The fact that two of the three episodes you mentioned for showing Zuko's character are regarded as among the best in the respective seasons, is quite telling
"I don't think its a decision that you just come to..." It makes me think about a conversation I had with someone who was recovering from their partners infidelity, and felt guilty about doing things to reassure themselves like checking their partners phone.
You can decide that you want to rebuild the relationship and you want to trust them again. But trusting them them again isn't a decision, just like growing a tree isn't a decision. You can plant a tree, you can nourish a tree, but you can't just have a grown tree because you decided that you want one.
To me stories of instant redemption or instant forgiveness feel so hollow because they seem to think that one brilliant moment somehow earns what ever seeds they planted to suddenly blossom into a full sized tree.
My favorite version of a redeemed vader looks like Anakin, but with a robotic collar around his neck, a scarred face, and most of his hair back.
The collar is because the heat and fire damaged his lungs, and while they've been healed enough for him to breath without a suit his voice is only a whisper, so the collar is to amplify his voice so people can hear him better, and that form of him while resembling his natural form is still scarred and will never be fully healed.
when can you forgive a villain?
not before they realize they cant be forgiven
This is the same as saying never. Because if someone is really changed they don't want the forgiveness, because they realise it will never be deserved. I agree with that.
@Aliandrin I wouldn't say that they don't want to be forgiven. When you say something hurtful to someone you love, you want forgiveness, right? We change because of love and our want for connection. Zuko realized Ozai didn't want him and that Ozai didn't help Zuko become a better person. Iroh did. Zuko did have to choose for himself, but because of Iroh's unconditional love, direction, and guidance, he was able to see that he could change. He chose love. Forgiveness sweeps away the guilt. It's hard for the guilt to go away if you haven't been forgiven. You'll keep trying to do better even after forgiveness, but if no one recognizes your change into good, then you may start feeling unmotivated, and the guilt turns to shame because they shame you for your mistakes rather acknowledge the good you've done. It's important to praise and encourage good. Shame makes you feel like your whole self is wrong and that you can't be forgiven or redeemed. It destroys your motivation, and you may become self-destructive. Love motivates us. Love makes life meaningful. Everyone has the power to earn redemption. Forgiveness doesn't mean there are no consequences, but forgiveness is letting go of anger and sometimes letting them show you they've changed. It doesn't mean you have to trust them, but it can mean that you allow them to love you again.
I don't know if I entirely agree. I think there can be a certain point where grudges are right to be dropped, especially if the person having done an evil thing has gone a long way to actively reverse what they've done- perhaps dropping the resentment and ill will isn't the same thing as "forgiving" someone, but it's at least in a similar enough vein to be worth mentioning.
In the context of people who have hurt others weaponizing a supposed moral duty for victims to forgive them in order to extract a sort of peace for themselves? Yeah, I'd agree with you- not everyone will be willing to rebuild the bridges you've burned with you, and part of redemption is accepting that fact and doing and being better anyways.
Agreed
Honestly? Id forgive a villian if they truly understand they can't be forgiven
Its me saying to them "maybe so but by admitting that you made a big first step"
Thanks for this.
On Vader's redemption, though I don't know if it's now cannon, while Luke did forgive him, Leia absolutely refused to; in fact, after Luke got her to consider accepting him, learning about what he'd done to others, besides her, convinced her to completely reject his ghost.
Im pretty sure thats still canon i think in one of the books she thinks to herself how the hell Luke was able to believe their father was good.
I only read Thrawn's trilogy, but in that one Leia is unconfortable being addressed as Vader's daughter by the Noghiri, a population who worships him. They are the only people to know about her bond with Vader, which Leia and Luke kept secret. While she is right on hating him, she also chooses to ignore the fact that the Noghiri worship Vader as a demigod because he saved them and on top of that she is also being the mother of the century infiltrating an hostile planet while 6 months pregnant. So it's good and weird to see such a level of complexity: Leia hating on her father while potentially kickstarting the end of the Noghiri and the death of her unborn twins, effectively being a fold to Anakin (idk if intentional, books came out before prequels)
It’s canon. This is an excerpt from The Princess and the Scoundrel, a canon novel.
"I’m glad you are dead," Leia whispered to the mask. There was no anger in her voice, only quiet truth. "I will never forgive you."
Something twisted inside her, rising like flame, burning and choking her throat. "I hate you!" Leia snarled, and she hurled the helmet into the ash. Her eyes burned, and her nostrils flared, and for a moment she felt nothing but the rage sweeping over her. It was feral, and it was powerful.
She tasted ash on the back of her tongue, and blood. "You are not my father!" Leia screamed. The word echoed around the otherwise silent forest.
One character that I love to see redemption arcs for is Starscream from Transformers. He's such a conniving deceiver, and he kills for the Decepticon cause and tries to usurp his leader, but he's also sometimes depicted as sympathetic enough to realize that he's just being abused by the other decepticons, especially Megatron, that all the harm he's done was for nothing. In some stories he eventually becomes an Autobot, and there was even a scene in one of the cartoons where he spent the time learning to knit a blanket for the kid characters.
did not expect to see another fellow transformers fan :)
@@skystarsstudio9090 Ba weep granna weep ninny bong to you too. :)
Someone else may have already said this, but one of my favorite character redemption arcs is Angel on Buffy the vampire Slayer. When he gets his soul back and is aware of everything he did as Angelus, he has to spend the next hundred years trying to make up.
Out of contexts: I noticed on one video a long time ago where the person point out that Zuko is little clumsy asking names, like when he was talking Sokka, he did not know Katara's name at all so he used "your sister", but after that when Sokka told what's her name he has never called Katara anything else. I really liked and adored, those little titles counts on my book making that redemption so worth it, making it look so worth it to all of us
0:33 "8 years later"
Stop calling me old!😭😭😭
I've always felt that a critical part of any good redemption arc is that there has to be a moment of self reflection and/or awareness. That's definitely where Zuko shines. He calls out his father for his cruelty to him, but he doesn't use it as an excuse. He owns up to the things he and his people did, and strived to correct them without ever playing the victim card. I think too often sometimes people use a hard past/childhood/previous events as a essentially a "get out of jail free" card when it comes to redeeming a villain and they're just welcomed with open arms without having to acknowledge any of their own actions, and that's what can ruin a redemption arc for me.
Tale Foundry really hit the nail on the head with villains and redemption arcs. For a truly great redemption arc, we need to see that a villain wants to change, and wants redemption. To see them change how they live, and change the decisions they make.
The specialness of Zuko's character is that he was always a main character in his own right because ATLA has an ensemble cast. While Aang gets top billing as "the main character", everyone else goes through their own character arcs as well. Zuko goes through this in particular, to the point that some people call him the "true main character" because his arc was just that good.
Avatar: The Last Airbender showed just how great a properly executed redemption arc can be.
On the other hand, we see so many villain redemptions end in death or, in cases where a villain is redeemed and lives, the former antagonist turns into a side character and loses relevance, taking a back seat to the main character and their supporting cast for the rest of the story.
I literally had the exact same thought about Kylo Ren living and having to take up the mantle of Luke/Ray to make up for it right after I watched the movie the first time.
I'm glad to know that more people think that is a better direction.
The tv show Xena Warrior Princess is a series long redemption arc. When we first meet the character in the Hercules tv show, she's a ruthless warlord. But because of the influence of Hercules who helped her see the error of her ways,she decides to make up for her past misdeeds and dies at the end to achieve redemption.
What is better to be born Good or to overcome your evil nature through great effort -Paarthurnax Skyrim
"Hey, Zuko here."
Even the best of us can do horrible things, that doesn't make them evil. And the worst of us can still do a couple of good things that won't make them heroes. It doesn't matter how you die - by the blade of the protagonist or by sacrificing yourself for one, what matters is how you live. You can't kill millions, save the one and say "welp, that settles it, now I can rest in peace". You'll have to go all the way up and even further. That's why we almost never see good redemption arcs. I think not even writers can think of something to forgive the villains they create. Easier to just dump this all into one passionate moment and say "he had some good in him after all, let's remember him as a decent guy"
I think it speaks A LOT when the villain themself does not forgive themself, as Storm Shadow said during the season finale of G.I. Joe Renegades:
_If you're asking for forgivness..._
*I AM NOT, FAR I DO NOT DESERVE IT 💔*
Thank you! I’ve always hated Redemption Equals Death, and this is a part of the reason I hadn’t quite noticed or been able to articulate.
This video talks a lot about why I generally prefer shows or mini series over movies; character development.
Movies often have at most 2 hours to get you to know the main cast, and solve the issue in the world. You can't have more than 15 minutes dedicated towards one character. But in shows you can have several episodes just going indepth on a single character.
The difference in this often makes me feel as though character development in movies is rushed, and redemption arcs are shocking and leave my head spinning, and generally I don't care about any of the characters.
Shows can make me care about the people in them because they can show me everything there is about the people by putting it in a whole episode and sprinkling even more stuff into random episodes.
The issue then becomes when shows run to long, and the only thing left to develop is the plot. So thise either makes the characters flat so there is no struggle, or the characters just backslide from all of the lessons they learned off screen.
YES
Kinda surprised you didn’t mention the Diamonds from Steven Universe too.
Ok, in this case, the reason the diamonds got a rushed redemption arc was because Steven universe got cancelled. Rebecca Sugar had to beg to CN to have at least enough episodes to finish the show in a good note. Maybe if the show wasn't cancelled, the diamonds could have gotten a more complete and satisfying arc, but I don't blame the writers, they had to work with what they got.
When he said "8 years later" I felt something
Can you make a video about the oposite like a corruption arc
That intro has yet to get old, just yesterday I saw Nuxtaku react to the King in Yellow video. The growth of this channel is such a wholesome story and I'm beyond happy to have witnessed a portion of that growth. Keep it up guys ❤
one thing that i feel like is important is that zuko actually got what he was fighting for while he was a villain. for a third of season 3 zuko was redeemed in his fathers eyes and no longer had to live on the run, capturing the avatar. and he gave that up to do the right thing. kylo never was able to conquer the galaxy or become renowned and feared like his grandfather. so him switching to help rey at the end didn't really mean as much because he never had to abandon what he worked so hard to accomplish
The way I see it, redemption arcs are most impactful when they are built up. Kylo's redemption was kinda out of the blue. Zuko's was built up over time, and that made him actually feel like he changed. Zuko had his redemption through a lot of self reflection and a lot of Ego vs. Soul inner conflict. Kylo Ren didn't have so much of a build-up.
The thing with Kylo's redemption is that it was pretty explicitly set up and knocked down in the first two films, which basically said, "yes, there's some capacity for love in him, but not enough to balance out the capacity for hate." He killed his dad without really seeming particularly conflicted about it, he didn't want to kill Leia, but was fine with the guy behind him taking the shot, and he liked Rey enough to want her to be his Sith Apprentice, but not enough to abandon the Dark Side and the First Order for her. And then it's just, "Oh wait, he's good now nevermind" in the third movie.
@@RorikH Like I said, the build-up just isn't there. We get hints that he has a little good in him, but we also see that kinda thing with Thanos or Dr. Doom and those guys don't even have a redemption arc.
One example that I can think of is thorfinn from Vinland Saga. He killed so many people that he couldn’t keep count, but he eventually decided to create a place for people trying to escape from war and slavery to atone for what he did.
“Redemption is something you have to fight for in a very personal, down-dirty way. Some of our characters lose that, some stray from that, and some regain it.” Joss weden.
Btw, ~Weden's series Buffy the vampire slayer and Angel have some of the best villain stories I've seen.
Angel himself, Spike, Darla, Faith, not to mention willow's amazing turn to the dark side and then need to return to the light and grapple with what she became, or Wesley's complicated dance on the edge of light and darkness.
I think one big thing about redemption is balancing the scales. The one good deed you did when you sacreficed yourself does not cancel out the 20+ evil ones you did before.
A villain done well for me, is a villain you understand their motives, being that of some trauma that led them down that path. Or just outright power hungry and no remorse.
You can see yourself walk down that path of the broken hero, how they tried so hard to remain on the path, but eventually just lost that will, or abandoned it for actually a good reason
Does it excuse them for their crimes, not in the slightest, but understanding why they did it, helps connect them.
I love Darth Vader because of those reasons, even before the prequals, because seeing a father trying to save his son, and do a good deed was heart-breaking, but it didn't redeem him in the usual way. But the prequals just enforced even more, and made one relate to him more.
Zuko lives with his mistakes, and will work to rectify it, and we see it also play out later in Korra, and we see a whole different person from The Last Airbender.
The version said here of Kylo Ren, having him live, and try to work to fix his mistakes, would've been way better than the ending we got, and I feel fans would've liked that much more
As I said before, I love redemption arcs. My favourite are Garmadon and Morro ( Ninjago), Darth Vader ( Star Wars),Zuko ( Avatar Aang) and Jude Sharp ( Inazuma 11). I feel amazing, when I see a villain understanding his mistakes and becomes good.
I feel like zuko was redeemed the moment he challenged his father and then redirected lightning it was tense and powerful scene and highlighted how zuko realised the trauma and abuse he’d experienced and cut away, he also had the entire of Book 2 to see the damage the fire nation had done to the ppl, so he was disillusioned by the propaganda but stayed for the need for affection. Really zuko is just the pinnacle of redemption arcs.
Thorfinn's redemption arc from Vinland Saga is so damn underrated in pop culture maaan. It deserves so much more recognition to stand a head and shoulders alongside Zuko and above Kylo Ren.
A "heroic sacrifice" CAN work, but by nature of the "sacrifice", it almost always stunts the character's room for growth (unless a magical revival magic is at play, which comes with its own narrative problems). The trope is so common it is hard to think up a good example off the top of my head, but the ones that DO work in any degree show the light pierce the darkness. It isnt as simple as "i could do evil, but i choose not to", it has to be the more difficult " i could do evil, but i will choose the heroic thing to do instead". With the zuko example, we have instances of exactly that. Under pressure when finding a kidnapped appa, zuko has to choose what to do. on the sliding scale, we have 3 options: kill him, walk away, or set him free, scaling from evil, to neutral, to good. An evil character would kill, an evil character with angst would walk away hoping the right thing would happen but refusing to do it themselves and would be a good FIRST step, and a hero or a villain to be redeemed would set him free. See where i am going with this? Zuko has to act against his own beliefs to free appa, and even if he is under pressure to make the choice, he still does it. As easy as it is to point at the bigger moments in his arc, freeing appa is the moment he actually becomes a hero, even if he doesnt accept that yet. It is because he frees appa that he feels any guilt for returning to his abusive home; he knows what "good" is. But now we need to address the neutral option and just how complicated it is. It can fit in a redemption arc, but it is the first step, not the last. I havent watched the disney trilogy and have no interest after the illusion of hype was destroyed with a bland first movie, but the way you summarize kilo ren's arc is that he had a couple of first steps, walking away from the evil choice, but never had a payoff where he chose good until the infamous sacrifice. If a heroic sacrifice is going to land as the crystallization of "becoming good", we need to first see an instance where they chose good of their own volition prior. It is why the villain's second in command is so easy to redeem. The first sign is questioning orders, the proof they can turn good is refusing those orders or turning on their boss in the final hour of the plan, and there redemption, as lame as it is, is falling in line with the heroes or sacrificing themselves for the sake of the heroes. One Piece is a bit too long to pick out any exact examples, but it is the best i can think of for the "vibes" of redeeming a character AFTER their heroic sacrifice by showing the context of backstory and people alive today that were touched by the "villain's" good deeds and heroic actions before they made their choice for the world to see in a sacrifice.
I guess the short version is you showing a 3 step process to heroic sacrifice redemption arcs, but where their success and failure is defined is by breaking down that 3 step into 5 or 6 instead. step 1) villain fully aligned morally with the goals. step 2) question the morals of their faction. step 3) refuse to do the evil of their faction. step 4) choose to do the exact opposite of their faction's morals and ideals to put a "good" notch in their belt. 5) heroic sacrifice themselves in front of the heroes to crystallize their change in heart while "paying" for their past crimes simultaneously. Each step needs to be a separate instance. It can still come off a bit cheap unless there are multiple instances of the middle 3 steps, but the 5 step process is the bare minimum to redeem someone that even pre-k level media understands to rush through. Step 1) villain of the week is introduced as evil. Step 2) they try to convince the heroes to do their evil. step 3) the heroes chastise them for their evil ways. Step 4) the villain sees how their evil harms themselves and those around them. step 5) help the hero of the show to correct their own wrongs. Step 6) friendship (because it is an early childhood story). The only difference in early childhood shows between the redeemed villain of the week and the main antagonist is that the antagonist asks for a truce to solve the problem without learning any long-term lesson. "i am not doing that again; not because it was wrong, but because it failed."
A good redemption arc definitely has to include accountability for the redeemed character. It was executed well with Zuko, and a lot of writers forget that not all of the characters will accept the new redeemed villain right away. Everyone has a different perspective on their new “friend”, and it’s important to dive into that.
Possibly one of the best portrayals of seeing a villain’s complexity, and “suffocated possibility of not turning to evil” would be Transformer’s More Than Meets The Eye comic arc for Megatron.
Even by the characters own measure, he never becomes a “good guy”. He just remembered what he was like before he embraced his violent path. And he has to live with that. And be constantly reminded of that.
Look I think that the main thing that makes a good redemption arc is understanding. If we know why they chose the path they did and then we see the effort and turmoil that they go through to change. And then work to atone to the people they hurt is what solidifies their change.
Always a nice day when theirs a tale foundry video
When they seek redemption
The most recent 'change of heart' a villain does, that comes to my head, is in Miraculous.
It feels so unbelievably cheap, because he was obsessed with beating children and acted like a psychopath until the end.
We're told he's a hero by sacrificing himself to a character, whichs deadly state is his fault as well.
The word of the main character just isn't enough for a redemption.
Zuko is a redemption done really right! I can think of a few others (Vegeta) that go part of the way by others but complete it themselves.
Let's rewind and take Piccolo as a Villain
"when do you forgive a villain?"
when they become hot
Disgusting, but sadly true...
Become?
It helps that, in Zuko’s case, his actions show that, at his core, he’s a fundamentally good person, even during his stint as the main antagonist. Whereas Ren monologues about his indecision, Zuko shows several downright heroic qualities from the very beginning of the series. He’s determined, and he refuses to give up. He truly listens and looks up to his kooky uncle when it matters, and he has actual concern for the few men under his command. And while he speaks about it to the point of becoming a meme, even in-universe, he really does believe in the importance of honor, and ultimately abides by that, when all is said and done. Even the mad quest for the Avatar that he was sent on was a product of his compassion, something his father despises him for. Zuko ended up with that punishment because he objected to a plan in a war council that would needlessly sacrifice the lives of their soldiers, from his view.
It also helps that Zuko has a contrasting example of the villain he could be, in the form of his younger sister. Azula is everything that we expect as a villain; cold, ruthless, violent, conniving, straight up sociopathic even; everything that Zuko’s father wants in his successor. In his false redemption arc, Zuko’s turn back to villainy comes from the decision to emulate her, which leaves him severely conflicted throughout the first half of the third book, feeling unsatisfied and insecure, before he finally makes his real turn by embracing the person he truly is.
I mean…it helps a lot that The Last Airbender was an episodic series, broadcast around three books/seasons, with twenty-six episodes each, while the new Star Wars trilogy encompassed just three movies. The former offers way more breathing room, when it comes to character development and exploring the intricacies of complex characters. We can see how trying to condense a whole season of the Avatar series into a single film completely screwed over the pacing, with the Shamalyan adaptation.
I remember one of my favorite speeches on the nature of redemption came from Teal’c from Stagate: SG1. For context, Teal’c is a main character who once served as the head soldier of an intergalactic tyrant. He converted to “the good guys” and spends the rest of the series bringing down these intergalactic warlords who have enslaved his people. He is unequivocally a “good guy” and some would say all the awful things he did under the Goa’uld could be forgiven.
At one point he talks with another man who served a different set of intergalactic tyrants and is clearly is torn up about it. Teal’c has a heart to heart with him and says that “While others may seek to forgive you, that is more about them than you. You know you will never be able to undo what you’ve done. Don’t seek personal absolution because you will never find it. Instead, fight for others. Because if you stand by and allow harm to fall on the innocent then all will truly be lost.”
It was a surprising character revelation. Here was someone who had fought harder than anyone else, had saved countless lives, and had liberated his people from generations of tyranny, and he still had not forgiven himself for what he had done. And never would. But instead he had forged that feeling into a desire to do good and right by the innocent and to oppose tyranny wherever it may lie, forever and always.
It turned Teal’c in my opinion from an already great character to one of the most powerful “redemption” characters in all media, and helped shape my concept of redemption in stories. Redemption, in my heartfelt opinion, is not just from a single noble act or earning forgiveness. It’s from recognizing you’ve done something wrong and committing to ensuring no one else suffers from that kind of harm ever again
We take issue with understanding the opera part of the space opera that Star Wars is, or at least The Skywalker Saga is. Star Wars shot itself in the foot when they started to develop stories that were not in the vein of space opera, cause we compare everything to those works since the narration seems more cohesive in those projects. Avatar the Last Airbender is no opera, and therefore in my mind at least, is a wholly different animal with their villain redemption arcs to the villain redemption arcs of a space opera.
I like the train of thought in this video and the potential of what could have been. I don't discard the idea that the story of The Rise of Skywalker could be chalked up to bad writing, but narratively, Star Wars has more in common with the Phantom of the Opera than it does with ATLA. A sudden death or what seems like unearned redemptions are prevalent in operas. It's more like a telenovela in that way than it is a character piece. ATLA is a great character piece show that deserves its plaudits for being able to introduce the idea of character piece in a medium that, at the time, was viewed solely for children.
Tbh I woulda preferred avatar was longer and Zuko's redemption arc stretched out a bit more by the end.
I always felt his behavior as a good guy felt just a tad accelerated by comparison to his time as an antagonist/conflicted character.
One of my favorites is Dalinar in the Stormlight archive. We meet him well into his redemption, he is introduced as almost comically honorable and we only get hints at what he used to be from other characters whispering about his reputation or ribbing him for going soft. It is not until the third book that we get to see the monster he was and the mistakes that drove him to attempt redemption. Something about presenting it in this order is really interesting to me. Rather than letting the reader forget as part of the forgiveness, it forces you to reevaluate your opinion and adds fresh context for the mistrust and fear he is constantly struggling to overcome at that point in the story.
Zuko had his uncle to push him towards redemption and we get to see their dynamics that lead to the redemption, so it doesn't just come out of nowhere.
And even after officially switched sides, many characters still don't trust him.
At the end bro wrote a better starwars story than Disney
Sadly not that hard to do…
I've lost count on how many good rewrites I've heard for Disney's trilogy. When you have JJ Abrams at the helm that tends to happen.
@@BP-dn9nvyea… those rewrites are only “good” because you try to take every opportunity you have to find a new reason to hate the sequels.
Having kylo ren up there with zuko is like having a fanfic writer up with Shakespeare
Don’t insult fanfic writers, there are some really good ones.
I love the music in the beginning and at the end, when I hear it I just blend with it😌
The thumbnail for this video is soo cool. Hats off to the team who worked on it.
While it's not a book, "The Boys" is trying to layer in more context to Homelander's many many issues and it's really weird. Not bad but it's conflicting seeing someone so "evil" be made so visible as a person.
You forgive a villain that hasn't fully gone to the dark side or can work his life to make amends
Mha gentle for example only plays pranks on people. And he's redeemed after defeating a whole entire prison.
Fmab you got scar and I'd say while he has done horrible things turning into the monster than ended his brother's life he started a new path to actually help his home land
This episode was truly beautiful, not going to lie.
You always ask the best questions.
If you want a great example of a true redemption arc, read the IDW Publishing's first run of "Transformers" comics starting from the "Dark Cybetron" mini-series, and "More Than Meets The Eye" set in the aftermath to the comic universe's conclusion when it was the retitled to "Lost Light." Hasbro mandated the writers change things up in a dramatic way and have Megatron reformed into an Autobot. It wasn't just a gimmick, but a permanent role reversal, and became a genuinely good story of a genocidal villian turned repentant. There were so many good moments during this period, and the fleshed out origin of his character that makes him more than just evil incarnate but a product of the society he was built into and tore it down the wrong way. In the end he accepted his guilt for what he had wrought, his final line of the story being "Whatever happens next. Whatever fate awaits me... I deserve worse." There is no onscreen death, but the weight of this acceptance is felt.
Kylo is more a joke than a villian
...twisted and cringy
How come you can tolerate Anakin in AOTC but not Kylo. At least Kylo really feels like a tempered teenager, Anakin in AOTC feels like an adult PRETENDING to be a tempered teenager.
Boy, the number of modern cartoons with shitty redemption arcs I could share with you. Just off the top of my head: Starlight Glimmer and Discord from MLP, Catra and Shadow Weaver from the She-Ra Netflix show, The Diamonds from Steven Universe, Lilith Clawthorne from The Owl House, Sasha Waybright from Amphibia, Nine from Sonic Prime. All their arcs suck MAJOR ASS because they weren't given enough time to progress in a natural manner. Writers think that if they just force a villain redemption into their shows without any build up or progression, it'll be fine, but kids deserves BETTER than that. Hell, this kind of crap was present in animation BEFORE it was quote on quote "cool". Ben 10 did it with Kevin Levin and the Foster's Home movie Destination Imagination did it with whatever that villain's name was. I'm not saying you can't have a villain redemption in your show, but it HAS to be better than all those examples. Also, there's nothing wrong with keeping your villains as monsters. People love Jack Horner from PIB and he's a complete monster. People love so many cartoon villains from their childhood because they loved doing evil things. We definitely need more villains like Jack Horner nowadays, but if we are to get more redemption arcs, please, PLEASE give them time to develop and don't cram them in at the last second.
I don't think Lilith Clawthorne was that bad. We see from her introduction episode that she cares about Lilith, we later see that her regret over the mistake she made as a kid is part of what inspires her actions as an antagonist, and even after helping to save her sister things aren't immediately 100% OK. It is only after being forced to live at the Owl House for a while and making efforts to try to make things up to her sister that she really integrates into the family. We then see how resolving the regret that has been burdening her for years causes her to change significantly as she is able to be more comfortable with who she is, form new relationships, and grow as a person.
@@joelsasmadIt's kind of a shame Lilith was relegated to the role of Quirky Aunt later on. And that she never really got to interact with Amity anymore.
The realization and the subsequent desire to change are the most important things, and they have to go hand in hand. A villain can’t believably be redeemed without knowing what they are AND wanting to not be that anymore.
Zuko and uncle iroh were the best I rewatched the show multiple times just for them